Angie Martinez IRL - Bozoma Saint John on Faith, Hustle Culture Lies & Trusting Your Inner Voice

Summary

Podcast Summary

Joe and Jada Podcast (iHeartPodcasts & The Volume)

Angie Martinez IRL – Bozoma Saint John on Faith, Hustle Culture Lies & Trusting Your Inner Voice

Release Date: May 14, 2026
Guests: Angie Martinez (host), Bozoma Saint John (marketing executive, author, entrepreneur)

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Episode Overview

This episode features an intimate, insightful conversation between Angie Martinez and marketing powerhouse Bozoma Saint John ("Bose"). While it is technically an Angie Martinez IRL takeover, the discussion aligns with Joe and Jada’s usual behind-the-scenes, real talk style. Martinez and Saint John dig into faith, vulnerability, the limitations of “hustle culture,” authentic leadership, and what it truly means to trust your intuition while living publicly and leading as a Black woman in the business and media worlds.

Bozoma shares stories from her memoir The Urgent Life, her transition to a new phase of public life as a “Real Housewife”, and dissects the cost—personal and professional—of moving beyond traditional corporate boundaries. With candor and warmth, the pair explore grief, resilience, boundaries, friendship, and the truths women aren’t often told about power and proximity in business.

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Key Themes and Discussion Points

1. The Power and Pain of Memoir (02:48–09:46)

• Writing Her Story: Bose explains why she resisted writing just a business manual and opted for her memoir, The Urgent Life. She wanted readers to know her real story—including loss, love, regret, and survival—rather than a sanitized path to the “corner office.”
  • "As a successful businesswoman, people always think you had a silver staircase...and for me, I was like 'wait…like, I’ve dealt with some shit in my life.'" (06:12, Saint John)
• Honesty About Regrets: She details a particularly vulnerable story about her late husband, acknowledging choices she regrets and how honesty (even when it casts her in a less-flattering light) can liberate others.

2. Trusting Instinct Over Opinion (09:46–12:48)

• New Levels of Public Scrutiny: Bozoma describes the internal struggle and external pushback she faced when joining Real Housewives of Beverly Hills, even as powerful mentors advised against it.
  • "My inner voice says, no, this is…where you should be going…but it has not not caused me to have fear. I still have the fear…I still have the doubt." (11:03, Saint John)
• Despite fear and outside judgments, she affirms the importance of following her intuition—even when it contradicts majority advice.

3. Navigating Fame, Social Media & Business Legends (12:48–20:51)

• Visibility and Culture Clash: The perils and rewards of crossing from a business world (where you’re respected for your track record) into pop culture, where new audiences may not extend that same respect.
  • "I was not aware there was a difference between being public in a business format and being public in pop culture…they may not carry over." (15:27, Saint John)
• Defending Other Women: Bozoma discusses the backlash to Emma Grede’s public stances and the tendency to judge without context.
  • "She wrote 350 pages and you're talking about a 30-second clip. Critical thinking, guys…what she’s talking about is complicated." (17:56, Saint John)

4. Truths Women Aren’t Told in Business (23:32–25:22)

• Proximity and Advocacy: She stresses the importance of being “seen” at work and how true advancement often comes not just from doing the job, but from proximity and direct advocacy.
  • "You want advancement, you need proximity.…if you're working from home…don't think you just click on the camera…you gotta do more than that." (18:26, Saint John)
• Merit vs. Advocacy: The difference between men’s willingness to ask for raises versus women’s hesitancy, and why intention and setting boundaries matters at work and in love.
  • "Girl, you gotta get up and do your part…it's not enough for you to just sit there." (25:20, Saint John)

5. Hustle Culture Lies & The Importance of Rest (29:00–34:10)

• Rejecting the Hustle Myth: Bose debunks toxic hustle culture, jokes about Steve Harvey’s “only sleep four hours” advice, and insists her real superpower is productivity within healthy boundaries.
  • "People don't think that, but I do. I sleep my full eight hours.…If I don't get it, I'm horrible." (29:22, Saint John)
  • "During those years when that was the way to do it, if you told somebody you slept eight hours, they'd be like, you lazy ass idiot." (32:00, Saint John)
• Building Discipline and Planning for Joy: She details her regimented schedule and unwavering boundaries (e.g., no dinner meetings, strict cutoff at 7pm), showing how discipline preserves well-being.
  • "The better planned we are, the more successful we are." (34:33, Saint John)

6. Boundaries, Intentions, and Relationships (39:50–42:43)

• Teaching People How to Treat You: Stories of sovereignty in relationships—romantic and professional—including setting standards, not chasing, and letting people rise to your expectations.
  • "You have to let people meet you where you are. Don't come down to where they are." (41:03, Saint John)

7. Love, Loss, and Doing It Afraid (47:02–51:31)

• Resilience After Loss: Bozoma speaks frankly about grief—from early loss, widowhood, and hardship—and her refusal to let pain keep her from experiencing love again.
  • "I’ve had to have a lot of therapy.…I don’t want to spend my life without love." (48:02; 49:03, Saint John)
  • Her message: pursue love and life even with fear, and do the work to truly heal.

8. Therapy, Trust, and Parenting with Honesty (51:58–61:51)

• On Parenting: Bozoma’s candor continues in conversations with her daughter, whom she’s raised with radical honesty and intentional presence following the loss of her husband.
  • "I was honest with her about a lot of things at 4.…She would see that I was intentional with putting her important things on my calendar." (59:20, Saint John)
• Therapy and Emotional Openness: She advocates for professional support and self-awareness, especially for women struggling to “get back on the horse” after heartbreak or setbacks.

9. Q&A Segments & Notable Advice (63:18–77:12)

• Fan Advice on Imposter Syndrome: Responding to a listener whose wife struggles to self-promote:
  • "You are the molecule, and you change the matter every room that you're in. So don't have imposter syndrome. You belong in the room. Those 4,000 people worked so you could be there. So act like it." (67:09, Saint John)
• Money, Friendships, Faith, Life:
  • On money: "Give me the money, baby.…Money made me happier." (76:45–77:08, Saint John)
  • On love: "I need affection.…Talk to me nice. Words lead to action." (75:40–75:56, Saint John)
  • On friends: "Presence. If you see something about me online...[call to] go beat them up…be present in my life." (76:22–76:43, Saint John)
  • On prayer: “Me and God are homies, man. I talk normal…All day. Because I think better.” (70:46–72:13, Saint John)

10. Living Urgently, Trusting Yourself, Redrawing the Map (69:03–74:48)

• No Plans, Big Dreams: Bose eschews rigid plans in favor of living each day fully and trusting opportunities to unfold.
  • "I want every day to be really, really large.…I'm not putting anything off.…No, I'm going to do right now." (69:03, Saint John)
• If Leading the World: "I'd redraw the maps…maps make us feel like we are beholden to a certain group of people and keeps out other people." (74:01, Saint John)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Regret & Realness:
  • “There’s some parts in here where you’re not the hero…good!...That was unfair, you know, and I wish I could do it over.” (06:34–08:40)
• On Boundaries:
  • “I don’t take dinner meetings…I turn off at 7. Off, off. What happens? You can’t reach me after that.” (35:38)
• On Trusting God:
  • “I pray for discernment all of the time. I just want to know, like, give me the vibes…Me and God are homies, man.” (70:16, 70:46)
• On Moving Forward After Grief:
  • “Do it with the fear…and hopefully, some of the lessons—I won’t make those mistakes again.” (49:13)
• On Presence in Friendship:
  • “If you see something about me online, you need to call me and be like, girl, you want me to go beat them up? Yes, bitch, go over there…” (76:22)
• If God Texted Her Right Now…
  • “It’s gonna be all right…Chill out, Bose. Relax.” (79:47–80:14)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |-------------|--------------------------------------------------------------| | 02:48-09:46 | Memoir writing, regret, vulnerability (loss, relationships) | | 09:46-12:48 | Intuition vs. outside opinions (joining Real Housewives) | | 12:48-20:51 | Fame, social media, and defending Emma Grede | | 23:32-25:22 | Business truths not told to women | | 29:00-34:10 | Hustle culture, discipline, and the myth of working 24/7 | | 39:50-42:43 | Boundaries in work and love | | 47:02-51:31 | Loss, love, and resilience | | 51:58-61:51 | Parenting, therapy, and emotional openness | | 63:18-67:32 | Fan Q&A: Imposter Syndrome advice | | 69:03-74:48 | Life philosophy, leadership, and redrawing “the map” | | 75:40-77:08 | Love, rules, and the importance of money (lightning round) | | 79:47-80:23 | “If God texted me...” segment |

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Takeaways

• Radical honesty—with self and others—is powerfully freeing for growth, resilience, and leadership.
• Boundaries (in work and relationships) and discipline around time are essential—not obstacles—to success.
• Living public lives means new scrutiny, but trusting your intuition can guide you through outside noise.
• Mentorship and truth-telling—sometimes, sharing the real, hard truths is more supportive than sugar-coating.
• Therapy and support are critical for healing and moving forward after loss (of any kind).
• Money matters, affection matters, presence matters—but none at the cost of your integrity, peace, or truth.

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This was a wide-ranging, honest, and energizing episode with Bozoma Saint John, packed with wisdom, laughter, and “real talk” about the cost and joy of living out loud.

Transcript

[Angie Martinez]

This is an iHeart podcast.

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[Angie Martinez]

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[Angie Martinez]

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[Bozoma Saint John]

Oh, no.

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[Angie Martinez]

Together.

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[Bozoma Saint John]

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[Bozoma Saint John]

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[Bozoma Saint John]

Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes.

[Robert Smigel]

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[Angie Martinez]

You're doing this publicly now? Yeah. All his opinions?

[Bozoma Saint John]

Oh, everybody has an opinion. How do you. How do you manage that? I hate it so much that's so honest.

[Angie Martinez]

Most people would be like, I don't care about others.

[Bozoma Saint John]

No, no, no, I care. No, I care. You read the comments. You read it. I'm responding. You know that cat, that what that's like, that's me.

[Angie Martinez]

Thanks for watching, guys. Today's episode is brough to you by Boost Mobile. St. John is a hall of fame. Inducted marketing executive, author, entrepreneur, general. Just badass. In 2023, she stepped out of the corporate box and she published her memoir, which we were just talking about and we'll share in a second. It was called the Urgent Life. It is called the Urgent Life. She's now a full time cast member of the Real Housewives of Beverly Hills.

[Bozoma Saint John]

That was not any of our bingo cards. Nobody's bingo card.

[Angie Martinez]

And she stars in on Brand with Jimmy Fallon, which is a marketing competition series on NBC. And she has many, many, many other things that we're gonna talk about all the things today. But Bozema St John is our guest today in real life and we met recently for the first time.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Oh, my God.

[Angie Martinez]

On a women's panel.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yes. I was so excited. I was so excited because you know what? I'm not from New York, but I feel like a New Yorker. I lived in New York for 15 years, by the way, the longest I've ever lived in any city in my entire life.

[Angie Martinez]

That's how you moved around a lot.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah, I moved around a lot. Um, and I loved hearing you.

[Angie Martinez]

Aw.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Every day.

[Angie Martinez]

Thank you.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Like, every day. Yeah.

[Angie Martinez]

Yeah. So I start to get like a one way relationship.

[Bozoma Saint John]

You know what I mean? And so, like when we met, it felt very familiar because I feel like I know you. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. But I.

[Angie Martinez]

But also, there's enough of your public. You have a footprint in the world that I knew you. I knew you somewhat.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yes. Well, thank you.

[Angie Martinez]

So we already came with some type of.

[Bozoma Saint John]

But I was already in love. And then I'm like, oh, my God. To talk to Angie. Because like, you're. I mean, you do do great storytelling. Thank you. And you have great conversation. And so even when we met at the panel, I was like, oh, man, we could sit up here and talk forever. That's gonna be. How are we gonna continue this conversation? We gotta get off the stage.

[Angie Martinez]

Well, number one, I will say that you also are amazing storyteller.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Oh, well, thank you.

[Angie Martinez]

And reading your book because, you know, you could have run a business book.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Oh, yes. Which, by the way, my publishers wanted me to write that book.

[Angie Martinez]

I was wondering about that.

[Bozoma Saint John]

That was the book they wanted me to write.

[Angie Martinez]

And also. You could still write.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yes, and I probably still will. Right?

[Angie Martinez]

You still will. We just interviewed. Maybe we just interviewed Emma Greed, which I know you did also. Which we're gonna get to all of.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Exactly.

[Angie Martinez]

We're gonna get to all that. I'm very curious about how you feel about what's being said about her and things of that nature.

[Bozoma Saint John]

I have a lot of thoughts.

[Angie Martinez]

We'll get into that. Yeah. But, you know, writing a memoir is a tricky thing. Right. And so when reading it, I wondered how much. Cause you people, they. They tell their story and they find a partner who's a writer by trade. But yours felt so intimate, and I. I just wondered. I was like, wow.

[Bozoma Saint John]

She.

[Angie Martinez]

This was a lot of your own voice and writing and words.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Angie Martinez]

But the way that it was written, because I've. I've been studying writing for the past few years, I also wrote a memoir, and the woman they brought in to help me because I was insistent on had I had to write so much.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah.

[Angie Martinez]

She taught me so much about actual writing and storytelling. And the way your book reads is it goes past to present, past to present. And you've been through so much that it's just a night. It's a. It's a beautiful ride.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Oh, thank you.

[Angie Martinez]

I know it's a lot of pain and things in there also, but it's just a beautifully, beautifully written.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Thank you. You know, so you're right. My publisher. And by the way, tons of publishers over the years have been like, you should write business book. Yes. How to get to the Corner Office in Heels.

[Angie Martinez]

Yeah.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Book. Which. Or like, you know, girl Boss for Dummies. And I was like, oh, my God. Well, I don't know about either one of those titles. You know what I mean? But, you know, I really felt called to write my memoir because as a successful businesswoman, people always think that, like, somehow you had a silver staircase, you know, and that, like, nothing bad could have happened to you in order for you to continue to rise. And for me, I was like, wait, wait, hold on, hold on. Like, I've dealt with some shit in my life.

[Angie Martinez]

Yeah.

[Bozoma Saint John]

You know, some stuff that brought me down. Yeah. And I think for me, it was like, look, I want. I want you to read my book and not only know me better, but also appreciate that, like, you can put yourself in these shoes and you can also achieve, regardless of what has happened to you, because, like, this shit is heavy, you know, so loss and love and survival and thriving and climbing the staircase and getting things wrong. Like at one point my editor was like, yo, votes. Like you, there's some parts in here where you're not the hero. You know, you don't look that good. And I was like, good? Actually, what part was it? Oh my God. Well, there are many parts, but you know, I mean, there's some stuff I regret, you know, it's like when I'm jumping ahead. But when my husband was terminally diagnosed, we had been separated for about a year and a half or so. We hadn't divorced. I wasn't planning on serving him the paperwork. Cause I was like, let him do it, you know, Let him be the bad guy, you know what I mean? And I was trying desperately to move on. I thought, okay, well if I have a boyfriend, then he real gonna get pissed off and then serve me some divorce papers. And I was like, you know, you should get a girlfriend too. You know what I mean? Like, let's just all both move on. And he was refusing, refusing. And then one day I went to his house and I saw a pair of women's shoes there. And those were some ugly ass shoes. I knew they weren't mine, you know what I'm saying? So I was like, who's this bitch? And he had a girlfriend. And I was like, okay, I don't know how I feel about this, but all right, you know, this will help move us on. But then when he was diagnosed and it was, she and I were getting along, you know, we'd like trade off time in the hospital. And it just felt very sister wife. And I was actually very comfortable with that until they said he was gonna die. Then you gotta go. Then I was like, honey, you gotta get up outta here. Okay? I'm his wife and these are my vows and I'm the one who's gonna be here. And in telling that story, I was definitely. That was unfair, you know, and I wish I could do it over.

[Angie Martinez]

Unfair to.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Unfair to her.

[Angie Martinez]

Her.

[Bozoma Saint John]

He was very happy. I mean, he, you know, went on Facebook and was like, thank you, God. I got my empire back and my kingdom back. You know, the whole thing. Like he was. But I don't think I was being fair, right? I wasn't being fair to her. And I regret that.

[Angie Martinez]

Did you ever. Have you ever made that men's or.

[Bozoma Saint John]

No, I'm not talking to her. Look, I'm not. I'm not that much of an angel now.

[Angie Martinez]

Okay, but you've admitted that before you said this.

[Bozoma Saint John]

I have said it. She said it.

[Angie Martinez]

She's gotten wind.

[Bozoma Saint John]

I hope she got. I hope she got wind, but we don't need to talk. I mean, come on. Okay, there's nothing. Nothing to do here. There's nothing more than that.

[Angie Martinez]

It's enough for you to admit.

[Bozoma Saint John]

It's enough for me to admit we don't need to be friends.

[Angie Martinez]

No. There's so much in your book that, you know, even looking at you now and where you are. We talked about this when we were in the panel. You took this gig on Real Housewives, which people were like, are you crazy?

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah. No, they really did.

[Angie Martinez]

Are you crazy?

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yes.

[Angie Martinez]

And what was it. What was it that. What was it that made you adamant in your decision making?

[Bozoma Saint John]

You know, it was really. It was really so hard to follow my instinct and my gut on this. And by the way, I have said adamantly, I've done a TED Talk on it. I've talked about my intuition, how powerful it is, how much I trust it, how I follow it. I don't take anybody's advice. I don't ask anybody for their opinions on my life. I am strong in that. But it is also very difficult to do that. Meaning that when people have an opinion about what you do or who you are, especially if you respect them. I'm not just talking about the strangers on the Internet. I'm talking about people in my real life. Yeah. You know, and not just my mom.

[Angie Martinez]

Right, right.

[Bozoma Saint John]

But like, you know, your daughter.

[Robert Smigel]

Your daughter.

[Bozoma Saint John]

My daughter, My friends, my mentors, you know, people who were successful, who are ahead of me, who are like, this is a bad idea. You know, And I'm just like.

[Angie Martinez]

And your voice says, yeah.

[Bozoma Saint John]

My inner voice says, no, this is the. This is where you should be going. But the thing is, it has happened actually quite a few times in my life where everybody in my life has advised me against the thing, and I went to do it anyway, and then it turns out to be successful, and then they're like, you know what, Bose? You were right. You were absolutely. Go ahead. You know, and so it's happened enough times that I feel drawn to my own will, even in the face of people doubting it. But it has not. Not caused me to have fear. You know what I mean? I still have the fear. I still have the doubt. I'm still like, what if this time they're right?

[Angie Martinez]

Right.

[Bozoma Saint John]

What if this time I'm stepping off the ledge and, like, I'm gonna fall and hurt myself? And what if. Yeah, what if I join the Housewives? And it's the worst decision ever because I'm going in with the intention of telling my story from my perspective. Adding a corporate baddie to the roster of women who are rich and successful and, like, having the best time ever. I'm like, yo, I want to come represent my people, but what if it's terrible? What if they make me look awful? What if, like, this hall of fame career comes crashing down because I did reality tv? You know, just the other day, somebody on threads, there's a debate going on about Emma Greed and her book, right? And I'm a defender of her philosophy. And somebody said it was something. I'm gonna paraphrase, but it was something like, yeah, she. She's talking so big, but she still ended up on reality tv. They said this guy, they were talking about me, and I was like, shit, is that a dig? Oh, my God, I think it's a dig. You know what I mean?

[Angie Martinez]

Did it stink?

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah, I'm like, it sung a little bit. Cause I was just like, wait, hold on. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Let's not, you know, let's not trash everything. Like, you know, that's not beneath me. And I don't believe any of the women who are participating in any of these shows are beneath me or beneath us. You know, they don't have a lower standard. They happen to showcase a certain type of life and a, you know, certain type of their personality that sometimes is not always the greatest. Yeah, but I do have. I feel like there's redemption.

[Angie Martinez]

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[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah.

[Angie Martinez]

How you do? You learn your lessons, you mentor people privately, or you do TED talks, or you do things to a world of people who want that information.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Right.

[Angie Martinez]

It's different when you cross over into a mainstream platform.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Ooh. Yes.

[Angie Martinez]

Those same opinions don't fit this. Yeah.

[Bozoma Saint John]

You. You nail head.

[Angie Martinez]

Yes. Nail on the head.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Right. Yeah.

[Angie Martinez]

Yeah. So I think that's some of the complication that Emma is facing.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Enormous, enormous complication.

[Angie Martinez]

And I won. Which I would like to talk about what's happening to Emma and the fact that you're choosing to defend or to support.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah, yeah.

[Angie Martinez]

But have you experienced any of that, like, shifts? Because now you're a public figure in a different way.

[Bozoma Saint John]

In a different way. And you are so. Right. I think that's a missing concept and idea. And again, let's. To be honest, I was not aware that there was a difference. I know that sounds so, like, probably naive.

[Angie Martinez]

Well. Cause you had never experienced this type before.

[Bozoma Saint John]

No, I didn't know that. Okay. There was a difference between being public and a business format and being public in pop culture, you know, and that the same sort of respect that I have in the business world may not carry over. I'd be teaching people again about me, and maybe they wouldn't agree.

[Angie Martinez]

Yeah.

[Bozoma Saint John]

And that was a shock because I was like, wait, hold on. But I have all of these credentials and all of these receipts, and why would you question that? You know? And then also, I think part of the issue that I am currently having with anyone's sort of, like, dismissal of Emma, greed's success and therefore her book and her advice is that they haven't been there. So how could you criticize what she's telling you? You know, she's not coming from a place of theory. I have a lot of problems with people who teach things based on theory. You know, like all of these gurus that are out there that are trying to tell you how to be successful in business, but have never occupied a C suite job. I'm literally like, the fuck do you know?

[Angie Martinez]

Yeah.

[Bozoma Saint John]

What. What are you talking. What is this? Shake, oil. Show me you don't have any receipts. But we have a woman who has not only succeeded in creating multiple billion dollar businesses, but she is generous enough to tell your ass how to do it. And then you want to turn around and be like, nah, I don't think so. How she knows? What crap is she trying to tell me?

[Angie Martinez]

Let me stop. You let me stop.

[Bozoma Saint John]

What are you talking about?

[Angie Martinez]

But it's funny because I was looking at some of the debate and you even posted a clip about this part. There was a lot of discourse around her saying the working from home was okay or not. And then I saw other people's arguments about why that is problematic. And I honestly can understand both sides of the story. And it's because Emma wasn't saying people should never work from home. She was just letting women. Hey guys, if you want to cut through, here's some of the problems with that you should be aware of.

[Bozoma Saint John]

That's correct.

[Angie Martinez]

Right? So that's her take.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yes.

[Angie Martinez]

But when you. But when it goes on a clip on these huge platforms and there's women sitting home who are like fighting their bosses to be able to do it from home. Because I do understand both sides of that. So I do think it's like, who is your audience and what are you saying? And having to be more careful about clips and oh, of course. But you can't control explaining.

[Bozoma Saint John]

You can't, you can't control the clips.

[Angie Martinez]

But I do understand how this happens.

[Bozoma Saint John]

But I wish people had a bandwidth to actually understand context and totality. She wrote 350 pages and you're talking about a 30 second clip. Yeah, I'm like, y' all, come on, like you gotta read the whole thing. Critical thinking, guys, you know what I mean? And like analysis. Because what she's talking about is complicated. She's not saying that like, oh, there shouldn't be any flexibility or that the

[Angie Martinez]

world is right, you know, that there's not other reasons why women are held back at times.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Correct? She's not saying that. She's saying, hey, this is the truth about the situation, okay? You want advancement, you need proximity. That is not a lie. You want to be in the C suite. You can't do it sitting at home, not close to the CEO. Now obviously there are global jobs. There are jobs that require you to be in a different place from your boss. Everybody understands that. Then figure out a way to get proximity. So if you're working from home, don't think that you just click on the camera for every meeting and then you go slink back and do whatever you're Doing at home, Right? Like, yes, you're in your spreadsheet, you're in your documents, and you're solo. And then you only pop up for the meetings that are required of you. No, sis, you gotta do more than that. So if you can't be there in person, then figure out how to get close to the boss quickly. Right. And in more than just the showing up on the meetings and have your camera off too, by the way. Let me add that in there because the challenge is that, like, this is the truth of the environment that we're currently in additionally. And this is again, the part of the nuance that is missing. I'm like, look, we've done our part, okay? We knocked down a part of the wall from the women before us who couldn't have even imagined the successes that we have right now. Right? Like, they can't. Those women could never have even imagined the things that we've been able to push forward. So now it's your turn and we're giving you the keys so you know how to operate right now. And then you knock down the wall. But people are expecting that, like, not only did we knock down the old walls, we should also knock down new walls. What are y' all doing? You know what I'm saying? I'm like, come on.

[Angie Martinez]

But because this is what happens. Everything is so, like, I don't know, box into what the clip headline is. And then people respond to. Just to that. But if we are talking nuance and bigger picture, you can also understand the other side of that argument. I'd imagine that you could understand that where, you know, other people are. That was some of the arguments that I saw on Social. Other people are listening. So when you're arguing with your boss to be able to work from home, because that makes sense in whatever the situation that is. And they're fighting you because for whatever

[Bozoma Saint John]

dumb reason, and they're like, emma said you should come to the house. Emma said, I get that.

[Angie Martinez]

And now you have a platform that's bigger.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah.

[Angie Martinez]

And you're not just talking to women who want to succeed in business now. You're talking to everybody.

[Bozoma Saint John]

And then.

[Angie Martinez]

So your words have so much more weight.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah, but can we say the quiet part out loud?

[Angie Martinez]

Yes.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Your boss believes you should be at the office anyway. So Emma and I are telling you what your boss is probably not going to tell you out loud. They're going to. Yes, you.

[Angie Martinez]

Okay, but then you.

[Bozoma Saint John]

They're going to say.

[Angie Martinez]

But then you and Emma saying it. It gives that boss. He sticks his chest.

[Bozoma Saint John]

It doesn't actually. No, let me.

[Angie Martinez]

He sticks his chest out and say,

[Bozoma Saint John]

this was already out.

[Angie Martinez]

Look at what your girl said.

[Bozoma Saint John]

His chest was already out. But you're not seeing it.

[Angie Martinez]

Mm. Okay.

[Bozoma Saint John]

He's already under the impression that you are not doing enough being at home. He's already under that impression. Believe me. Your boss is not listening to us. Two black women and being like, yes, that's what they said. He was doing that.

[Angie Martinez]

Yes. Okay, there's the thing. Right? So. But maybe he's not. I mean, maybe he's not, but the. The women are now putting you guys in position of. Yeah. Of being a voice for. Which is different than what you guys have had to do before.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yes.

[Angie Martinez]

Before it was just, like, uplifted. Let me put you on. Let me show you this. Blah, blah. But now you've. Because of your platforms becoming so large, the voice is more important. Yes.

[Bozoma Saint John]

And so here's the thing, is that we could either. Right. Be quiet about it and not tell you the truth then believe me. Also, I hope Emma doesn't get mad at me for telling you this and saying it out loud, but I did talk to her about that, you know, I was like, hey, look, if they don't appreciate it, shut the fuck up. Don't talk. And then we sat there and looked at each other and we're like, nah, but we can't do that. You know what I mean? It's like. Because the thing is that, look, people are going to be mad at you when you tell the truth. They always are. It happens to every single messenger. So.

[Angie Martinez]

And this is, like, one thing.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah. It is in the sea of all the things you have shared. And there are so many truths that are hard to say out loud. You know, there are. And also, again, another thing that I should probably not say out loud is that, like, look, there are a lot of people who've come before us who didn't say anything, who didn't tell you this, who didn't tell you the truth about what they're actually thinking, and then you had to find out the hard way, you know? So, yeah, maybe it feels like, hey, look, you're giving this idea and this platform air because you're also parroting what they're saying. But my point is that, like, I'm actually not parroting what they're saying. I'm just saying it in a way that you're going to hear it because they've been telling you that you're just not listening.

[Angie Martinez]

What are the other things that they don't tell women, girl. So many.

[Bozoma Saint John]

There's so many things.

[Angie Martinez]

We need a whole podcast.

[Bozoma Saint John]

We need a whole podcast for that. You know, let's not even start talking about money and how to like ask for promotions and get raises. Because it's not just proximity. You know, some of it is like our own unwillingness to go before we are ready. You know, it's like, look, you know how many times I sat in my office as a C suite executive and men who had just started working, white men in particular who had just started working in the job like three months, came into my office, said they needed

[Angie Martinez]

a raise with no problem.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Ah, no problem. And they had proof. They'd have receipts and be like, in the last 90 days, this is what I've been able to achieve sometimes they weren't wrong, by the way, But I think women actually do it better and faster. And then do you know how many times I would tell like a woman who was maybe a peer or something to that guy and been like, psst. You know, homeboy over here, by the way, under threat of hr, homeboy came into my office, he said he needed a raise. She'd be like, I'm like, yeah, girl, he did. And he had proof. And his proof is right, what you got? And she'd be like, oh, man. All right, all right, I'm gonna come. I'm gonna come. And then never came. And I'm like, I can't sit in my office. Just be like, okay, you know, she gets a race. You know, you gotta do your part. You gotta come too.

[Angie Martinez]

Yeah.

[Bozoma Saint John]

And so there's all kinds of. But the problem is that, like, if I say that out loud, which actually I just have, she's gonna say, oh, well, but this is, you know, I need merit based promotions and raises, and it's unfair that Chad over there gets. Comes into your office and after three months tells you he needs a raise and then you give him one. And I'm sitting here, you can see I'm doing the work and he didn't give me the raise. Yeah, girl, you gotta get up and do your part. You gotta do it.

[Angie Martinez]

Yeah.

[Bozoma Saint John]

And it's not enough for you to just sit there.

[Angie Martinez]

Yeah. Why do we do that? What is that about?

[Bozoma Saint John]

Girl, I don't know what that, what I do.

[Angie Martinez]

I would also like to offer to people. Is that like, you know, it's okay to say what. That one part of what somebody said doesn't work for me.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah.

[Angie Martinez]

And not dismiss their whole existence. Like, you don't. You don't have to throw somebody away.

[Bozoma Saint John]

That's the other nuance.

[Angie Martinez]

Maybe the one thing they said you kind of. I don't love that. I think that should have been said. Whatever your feeling is on whatever.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Like, yeah, great example of that. We love Steve Harvey. Okay, okay, let me just start there. Oh, gosh. Love Steve Harvey.

[Angie Martinez]

Love Steve.

[Bozoma Saint John]

At one point I saw him tired

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[Angie Martinez]

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[Bozoma Saint John]

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[Bozoma Saint John]

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[Bozoma Saint John]

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[Robert Smigel]

Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy. Not quite on Humor Me with Robert Smigel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Jim Gaffian to Bob Odenkirch to David Letterman help make you funnier this week. My guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an acapella band with their between songs banter. Who's the worst singer in the group?

[Bozoma Saint John]

The worst?

[Robert Smigel]

Yeah, Me. Is there anything to the idea that because you're from Harvard, you only got in because your parents made a huge donation to the group the Yarn Birds.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Right. That's the name.

[Robert Smigel]

The Harvard Yard.

[Bozoma Saint John]

But they're open. Do you have a name suggestion? We're open.

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[Angie Martinez]

Borjas her a la protectora de Latinas

[Bozoma Saint John]

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[Angie Martinez]

Como migran. De maicultura.

[Bozoma Saint John]

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[Angie Martinez]

El ha de Iheartradio Apple podcasts. Odon de se acucasts.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Do a interview, or he made a statement about how, like, he hustles so hard he only gets four hours of sleep a night. And if you wanna be successful, you can only. You can only sleep 4 hours. Cause otherwise you're lazy. Paraphrasing.

[Angie Martinez]

Yeah.

[Bozoma Saint John]

And I heard that, and I was like, damn. Cause I like some sleep. People don't think that, but I do. I sleep my full eight hours.

[Angie Martinez]

You do?

[Bozoma Saint John]

Absolutely.

[Angie Martinez]

Good for you.

[Bozoma Saint John]

And if I don't get it, I'm horrible, okay? So I have to get it. And I heard that and I was like, damn. Well, how am I going to do that? Because I'm not actually useful with just four hours of sleep. I tried and it wasn't working. So I went back to my eight hours, and I was like, you know what? I'm going to have to figure out a way to make whatever other four hours I spent sleeping, like, I got to double time on something else just so I can prove the fact that, like, yes, I'm working. I'm working hard. I got to double the time when I'm actually awake, you know? And so then I use that as my motivation to do more in my waking hours. Because I realized that, oh, there's other people out there who are four hours ahead of me. And because they're only sleeping four hours because they took Steve Harvey's advice. You see what I'm saying?

[Angie Martinez]

Which would have been shit advice for you.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Which would have been horrible. And by the way, I don't throw the man away. I don't discount his successes. He is incredibly successful. Like, what a shame it would be.

[Angie Martinez]

And still plenty to learn from him.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Plenty. I'm like, what a shame it would be if I just took that and said, ah, he doesn't know what he's talking about, his successes. The only reason he got it is because he's a man.

[Angie Martinez]

Well, no, stop.

[Bozoma Saint John]

No, no, but I'm just saying that, like, I could say that and I

[Angie Martinez]

would be wrong, right?

[Bozoma Saint John]

I'd be dead wrong. And so my point is that.

[Angie Martinez]

But you'd be mad about the one thing.

[Bozoma Saint John]

I'd be mad about the one. Okay, but that's my point is that, like, sometimes you take advice from people who've done it, and you're like, ooh, I can apply that. And then sometimes you take. You're just like, ooh, that actually doesn't fit me. But let me take the knowledge that's inside of there and apply it in a different way. So my thought was like, oh, shoot, there are people who are Only sleeping four hours. They have four more hours in the day than I do. So how am I going to spend my 16 hours in a way that's going to be even more beneficial? So that just made me hustle more in the 16 versus being like, oh, I got to have 20 to work with.

[Angie Martinez]

Yeah, we can't do it. Four hours of sleep is brutal.

[Bozoma Saint John]

I don't know how people do it. There's a whole army of people who decide they were going to sleep four hours.

[Angie Martinez]

No, I've heard this.

[Bozoma Saint John]

God bless them.

[Angie Martinez]

We also came. We also, like, I don't know. I was raised in like, hustle culture, right?

[Bozoma Saint John]

So everybody.

[Angie Martinez]

Then there was. I don't know, there was admiration for that. I took pride in how much, how hard I hustled so much I didn't sleep.

[Bozoma Saint John]

And I did this.

[Angie Martinez]

And I did this for free at the beginning, and I did this for this many years. And then at one point, at a

[Bozoma Saint John]

certain point you get to.

[Angie Martinez]

It's like. But there's almost. So I've switched internally where I don't. I still work hard.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah.

[Angie Martinez]

I still try to have, you know, whatever balance is for me paying attention to it. But also, I feel like there's also. It's just culturally, it's not what people wanna hear right now.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah, but guess what?

[Angie Martinez]

People are tired.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Right? But during those years when that was the way to do it, if you told somebody you slept eight hours, they'd be like, you lazy ass idiot. You know what I'm saying? So now, yes, of course, our health and wellness is at the top of conversations. Mental health is at the top of conversations.

[Angie Martinez]

Thank God though, that part when I

[Bozoma Saint John]

started out, you know, and walking uphill both ways, there wasn't. The conversation didn't exist. And so y. You couldn't have said like, oh, sleep eight hours a day and you'll still get to the top of the mountain. Nobody would have said that.

[Angie Martinez]

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[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah, we weren't great, but. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's, that's the way we. Yeah, that's the way we dealt with it. And that's also how we respected people. You know, if like you worked like that and didn't have a breakdown, then you were the winner.

[Angie Martinez]

Yeah.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Right.

[Angie Martinez]

You're the badass.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah. But if you work like that and you had a breakdown, people are like, ah, see, she was weak anyway, get out of here. You know?

[Angie Martinez]

And now do you still work like that?

[Bozoma Saint John]

No, I absolutely do not. I work very hard, but like I said, I use my 16 hours very well.

[Angie Martinez]

Okay, just give me a little insight like to how that, how you, how you manage that. How do you sleep? Eight hours every night.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah.

[Angie Martinez]

You're still very successful in many, many different ways. You're on boards of charities, you have reality show, television shows.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah, Engage. Yeah. With two weddings coming up. Yeah. It's like I got a lot going on. But the thing is that, like, I'm also very scheduled, you know, very disciplined in my time. And so I don't get thrown off course very often because either I'm anticipating X, Y and Z thing. Like I always tell my team, I'm like, hey, look, the better planned we are, the more successful we are. You know, because of course there will be things that were thrown into your day. Your child gets sick or, you know, an appointment cancels or a deal doesn't come through the time that you thought it would. And then you're stuck because you gotta readjust the calendar and readjust your priorities. But I feel like those are exceptions. And so the better planned I am, the better I'm able to get things done. So, yeah, I wake up at 5:30 in the morning. I have about an hour to myself where I'm praying and thinking and writing down things. I go to the gym at 7am till 8.

[Angie Martinez]

Every day.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Every day, seven days a week, six Sundays I take off, I rest like God. And then you do this every day without fail. Every day without fail.

[Angie Martinez]

You're like my hero.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah. 7:00am I wish to have that type of girl. I'm out here, I'm lifting heavy, you

[Angie Martinez]

know what I mean?

[Bozoma Saint John]

Getting out, frustrations, running, doing cardio, all the things. Every day, every day. Eight, I'm at home. My daughter goes to school at 8:30, so at least we have those 30 minutes to just make sure she's good for the day. I get ready by 10am, I'm in front of my camera or I'm in a meeting or whatever. I do my meetings till about 5, then it's time, you know, to get to the emails and the other things I gotta do. I turn off at 7. Off, off. What happens? You can't reach me after that. It's after seven, after seven o'. Clock, you can't really, no matter what's going on, no matter what's going on, you can't reach me unless it's like some sort of like dire emergency, the world is burning down. But I've done that for so many years that people are trained, they know that like you better get to me before 7pm whatever time zone I'm on after that you can't reach me. And I'm asleep by 9:30.

[Angie Martinez]

Even now with this new level of like career and no, no public facing.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Here's the thing, and again, this is why you've got to add the things in your life that won't allow for those breaks to happen. I don't take dinner meetings, okay? I don't go to dinners. And so it's like if you want to meet with me over a meal, it's going to be breakfast or lunch, preferably lunch, because my mornings are busy, you know what I mean? And so that's how I, so it's like, look, if, if you, if we need to have like people are like, oh, let's go to, let's go grab a bite, let's go have dinner. I'm like, yes, I'm available for lunch on the 24th.

[Angie Martinez]

Wow.

[Bozoma Saint John]

You know what I mean? And then that.

[Angie Martinez]

So never dinner with the girls.

[Bozoma Saint John]

I rarely do that. No. Why? If I'm going to get with the girl because it disrupts my sleeping time.

[Angie Martinez]

Oh, got it.

[Bozoma Saint John]

You know what I mean? Because I've got to unwind from the day and so at 7 o' clock I need to start unwinding. Otherwise how am I Going to be asleep by 9:30.

[Angie Martinez]

What is the unwinding? How do you do that?

[Bozoma Saint John]

Wine. Wine and tv. Wine and TV and social media and, you know, maybe I'll probably make some kid calls.

[Angie Martinez]

Hang out with your kid?

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah, hang out with my kid. I'll make some phone calls to some friends. But, like, the girl time where you're, like, sitting and you're chatting and all that. That happens on Sundays, usually.

[Angie Martinez]

Sundays?

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah. It's like, you know, we're going to brunch or.

[Angie Martinez]

Fascinating.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah. But I have to be disciplined that way because otherwise I won't get done all the things I need to get done and I have to focus on.

[Angie Martinez]

You could squeeze in a dinner at 6. No, no, because you're still in work mode because you only have till 7 to work.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah. So I'm still in work mode. But the thing is that, like, I feel like at this point, again, sometimes there are exceptions, but.

[Angie Martinez]

How long have you been living that long?

[Bozoma Saint John]

Years. Maybe a decade.

[Angie Martinez]

Wow.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah, probably a decade.

[Angie Martinez]

Does it piss people off sometimes? What about, like, date nights and stuff? Girl.

[Bozoma Saint John]

So here's the thing. I really. I do like date night, but Sunday, I. Yeah, Sunday. And look, the thing is, like, I am also a homebody, so I prefer that we do the date at home. And I know that probably sounds crazy, but it's like, let's eat in. Yeah, let's eat in. Let's sit on the couch, you know? You know, and we can say whatever we want. We don't have the waiter come interrupt us. Like, you know, we stay comfy. You know what I mean?

[Angie Martinez]

So you are not out in these streets?

[Bozoma Saint John]

I'm really not, no. And what's really crazy is that when I was working, especially in the entertainment business, as you well know, so many things happen in those late hours and early mornings. Right?

[Angie Martinez]

Yeah.

[Bozoma Saint John]

But I. I just didn't participate.

[Angie Martinez]

Wow.

[Bozoma Saint John]

You know, so it's like, again, you gotta train people to where you are. And in the early part of my career, it was really tough because I wasn't the one controlling the time. You know, it's like if. If I wanted to go meet with the head of a label and they were like, come meet me for dinner at 7. Sometimes, you know, you just have to be like, all right, let me go do that. You know? But eventually I started getting, you know, the courage to say, I can't do seven. Could we have lunch? And you would not. How many times people would be like, oh, okay, yeah, no problem. Because people are just. They're saying it per their schedule. But if you suggest a different time, sometimes it'll be like, okay. Or I'd be like, can I catch you before your first meeting? Can I come have, like, coffee or, like a breakfast or something like that? And people always will be like, sure, sure, sure.

[Angie Martinez]

Isn't that interesting? And it reminds me of something else that I was going to talk to you about, because I think there's something really big that women miss. And when successful women or women who have been successful not just in business, successful in relationship or finding a good partner, it's like setting the intention and setting your rules and kind of not bending them to me. Yes, there's something to that. You have a story in your book about meeting your husband for the first time.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Oh, yeah.

[Angie Martinez]

And he tried to ask you for a date, and you were like, you want to go on a date with me? Go read this book because it's my favor, favorite book.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Go read it.

[Angie Martinez]

And you were like, ha, ha, ha.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Right. He'll never come back.

[Angie Martinez]

He'll never come back. But in that moment, not only did he do it and then come back, you kind of set the tone of what type of gesture you would expect for a man to be in your life.

[Bozoma Saint John]

That is correct, right? Absolutely. Absolutely.

[Angie Martinez]

And so even in that. Or even the women coming in, not coming into your office asking for money.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah.

[Angie Martinez]

They're not setting the.

[Bozoma Saint John]

They're not reaching tension of what they

[Angie Martinez]

feel like they deserve. And it's not just in business. It's like in your personal. In your relationship, in your.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yes, yes. I mean, look, I don't remember who said it, but somebody was just like, you know, you gotta teach people how to treat you.

[Angie Martinez]

Yes.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Like that's. It works for everything. Yeah, it does work in business, and it works in your personal life too.

[Angie Martinez]

So.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah, I mean, I think for sure you have to let people meet you where you are. Don't come down to where they are, you know? So. Yeah. So whether it's the business meeting that somebody's like, oh, let's go have dinner. And I'm like, no, I prefer lunch. And saying that even though I'm not the one in charge.

[Angie Martinez]

Right.

[Bozoma Saint John]

You know what I mean? And how many times they will just agree. And then there you go. Now you have your thing. And so it's like the business person, now they know that, like, oh, Bose only does lunch, and so they won't ask you to dinner. And that's okay because I want to be outside anyway. You know what I mean? Or, yes. Telling my late husband that, like, look, I need you to go read this book if you want to have a conversation with me, because I need to understand where you are psychologically and whether or not you're even smart enough to keep up with me, you know? And even now, my current fiance, like, on our third date, when he asked me out, I was like, oh, I'm gonna be in Ghana. If you wanna go on a date, you have to come there. And he got on a plane and came. You know what I mean? It's like, you gotta put that there. And by the way, maybe they don't rise to the occasion. And you're like, nah, all right, maybe I'll give him another chance. I'm not even saying there's anything wrong with that. I'm just saying that, like, girl, you know, don't change your plans.

[Angie Martinez]

Yeah.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Make them change theirs.

[Angie Martinez]

At least give yourself the opportunity to be operating and have everybody in your orbit operating at a level that.

[Bozoma Saint John]

At a level that works for you.

[Angie Martinez]

Yeah. It works for you. Yeah.

[Bozoma Saint John]

You know what I mean? Because otherwise, it's actually not going to work. And again, that is why I feel like I'm so efficient in my 16 hours, because I'm operating solely based on, like, what works for me. And yes, I will make exceptions when it's necessary, but believe me, they are exceptions. It is not the rule.

[Angie Martinez]

No, I believe you. Oh, yeah, no, I totally believe you. Exactly.

[Bozoma Saint John]

I'm like, you know, so, you know, now it's like, let's not go for drinks.

[Angie Martinez]

I am deeply inspired by your discipline.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah.

[Angie Martinez]

I yearn to have that. I have this one thing I'm working on myself on right now, because I know. It's the difference for me. Yeah, I know. Getting up early, going to the gym. Being disciplined. About sleep.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yes, sleep. Sleep is so good.

[Angie Martinez]

I know. It's really gonna be a big difference in mine. I just haven't all the way shifted.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Do you have an accountability partner?

[Angie Martinez]

No.

[Bozoma Saint John]

You need one? Yeah.

[Angie Martinez]

You want to be it?

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah. You have time for that, girl, I will. I'll put it on my calendar. What does that look like? Check in with Angie. You know what I mean?

[Angie Martinez]

What does that look like? Do you have one?

[Bozoma Saint John]

Oh, what, my calendar?

[Angie Martinez]

No, an accountability partner.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Oh, yeah. Yeah. For me. Like, for my life. Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

[Angie Martinez]

What do they do?

[Bozoma Saint John]

A number of things.

[Angie Martinez]

Like, what is the role? Maybe this is my problem. I've never had. I've never hired.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Exactly. Well, okay, so now the other trick is you gotta have accountability partners that actually are gonna do the thing that you want. You know what I mean? You can't just be one. You can't just be the one for everything.

[Angie Martinez]

Got it?

[Bozoma Saint John]

You know what I mean? So people have certain. Like, they have talents in certain areas, right? My accountability partner for the gym is my trainer.

[Angie Martinez]

Oh, well, you pay him.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah, but, like. But there are people who are able to get up and just go to the gym without somebody. I can't do that. No. I need somebody who's gonna yell at me or I know that, like, if I'm five minutes late, they're gonna be pissed and make me run an extra half mile. You know what I mean? So even though it's like, yes, I pay my trainer, he is my accountability partner, and that has to work. Like, it doesn't work any other way. I can be a fair trainer is

[Angie Martinez]

what you're telling me.

[Bozoma Saint John]

You could do that. But there are some people who, like, they don't feel like they need a trainer because they don't want to pay the extra money. And they have discipline enough to get up and go to the gym and work out themselves. And I'm like, I don't have that. And so I do need him as an accountability partner. Or one of my girlfriends, she. Oh, my gosh, she's the. She is wonderful at self care. You know, she's the one who's like,

[Angie Martinez]

hey, somebody we know? Or.

[Bozoma Saint John]

No, no, I don't think you know her. No, no, no. But she's great at self care. Like, meaning that she is going to, you know, do the meditation. The meditation. Skin care. The massages that aren't just like, you know, like, flighty, but it's like deep tissue, you know, she's the one who's gonna call me on Sunday, you know, or maybe on Saturday and say, hey, look, you need it. Did you schedule, like, deep body work? Cause you need that. That acupuncture. Did you get it done? You know what I mean? Because I need somebody like that. Even though it's on my calendar, I'm gonna need somebody to tell me that I've gotta do it, you know, so there's just.

[Angie Martinez]

That's good.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Different people.

[Angie Martinez]

Are you there for anybody?

[Bozoma Saint John]

Oh, yeah.

[Angie Martinez]

A lot of people, right?

[Bozoma Saint John]

Oh, yes, yes. You know what? My big trick, my big talent is budgeting. I'm really, really good at that. Like, money I would've imagined. Yeah. And so I have quite a few friends that I've made budgets for. And we share. We share this in my life because

[Angie Martinez]

I need a budget and I need a wellness. I need A wellness accountability partner.

[Bozoma Saint John]

It can be both. No, but for real, like, I will create the budget. And, you know, it's like, girl, you gotta be honest, though. I don't deal with. You know what I mean? You gotta tell me. It's like, hey, look, I know you don't want to say how much you spend on shopping, but you gotta tell me. You don't want to tell me how much you spend on your liquor, but you gotta tell me. And, you know, then I work it out, and then we share the sheet and I can see what you're doing.

[Angie Martinez]

You're a really good friend to your friends, aren't you?

[Bozoma Saint John]

I am, yeah. I love my friends.

[Angie Martinez]

Yeah.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah. Longtime friends, too.

[Angie Martinez]

I was gonna say. You must have chosen well.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Oh, my gosh. I have so many friends that I've known for decades, you know, that I still hold very, very close.

[Angie Martinez]

That's amazing.

[Bozoma Saint John]

It's such a. It's really such a blessing. But then they all fight because they. Everybody thinks they're my best friend. And I'm like, right. There's like 12 of you.

[Angie Martinez]

Wait, so where are all 12? So you're going to do a wedding?

[Bozoma Saint John]

Oh, my God. Are you going to ask me that question about the bridesmaids? Yes. Is that what you're going to say? It is a current issue that I have.

[Angie Martinez]

It's a current issue.

[Bozoma Saint John]

It's a big problem.

[Angie Martinez]

I was tapping in. I felt it.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you could feel it. It's a big problem because there's so many of them.

[Angie Martinez]

Because they all want to be the.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Are you kidding me? They have a group chat called the actual besties that they put me in because they get pissed off when I call somebody else a bestie.

[Angie Martinez]

That's funny.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah. And so they all expect to be in the wedding party, and I'm like,

[Angie Martinez]

so wait, this is, first of all, your ability to not have, like, love trauma. Oh, I'm sure you have.

[Bozoma Saint John]

So.

[Angie Martinez]

But it hasn't. It hasn't stifled you. It hasn't stopped you or paralyzed you from trying it again.

[Bozoma Saint John]

You mean like romantic love? Yeah. Oh, yeah. No, no, no. It's terrible. I. I've had to have a lot of therapy.

[Angie Martinez]

Yeah.

[Bozoma Saint John]

A lot of therapy.

[Angie Martinez]

So if you haven't read her book, which you guys should. She had a loss. Young in life at 21. A boyfriend who took his own life.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah.

[Angie Martinez]

And was. And your storytelling around that was. Oh, you know, I felt that. Yeah. But you. You. Even to the loss of that moment. Ben, right? His name is.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah, Ben.

[Angie Martinez]

You still went. And you still got married to another. And then the marriage was. You were separated, so that wasn't working. Then if that wasn't enough, then you lost your husband. Yes.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah.

[Angie Martinez]

And then you still.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah.

[Angie Martinez]

Get back on the horse, girl.

[Bozoma Saint John]

I know. Well, some of it is being a deep romantic, you know, really. I really do believe in love. I love love. But also a lot of therapy. Yeah.

[Angie Martinez]

But also. Is it scary?

[Bozoma Saint John]

Oh, it's very scary. It's very scary.

[Angie Martinez]

Yeah.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Because I'm like, anything could happen.

[Angie Martinez]

Yeah.

[Bozoma Saint John]

You know, it's like, I've said it a million times. I'll say it again now. I don't want to be in the front row of the. Of a church for funeral ever again. I've talked to God about it quite a bit. You know that I just. I just don't. I don't want to be in that pew. And then, gosh, I can't even believe I'm talking about this out loud. But I do hear God very clearly. And his response to me was like, so do you want to die first? And I was like, well, no, I didn't say that. Like, you want to go now? Nah, nah. Well, I still got things to do, you know, but, like, it just. It sucks.

[Angie Martinez]

Yeah.

[Bozoma Saint John]

It is the worst. It is awful.

[Angie Martinez]

Yeah.

[Bozoma Saint John]

And at the same time, I don't want to spend my life without love.

[Angie Martinez]

So you do it with the fear. You just do it with the fear.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Do it with the fear. Do it with the fear. And hopefully some of the lessons. I know one thing for sure, given what I dealt with with my husband in our separation, that I won't make those mistakes again. You know, I won't take the relationship for granted, you know, that I will fight for it in ways I didn't fight for my first marriage. And that's what makes me feel like, okay, let me do it again.

[Angie Martinez]

Let me get back on the horse.

[Bozoma Saint John]

I see.

[Angie Martinez]

But how does that show up? Because I'm sure you're not the only woman who's dealt with loss and grief. I mean, you know, people deal with that all the time. Widows who are. Don't even know how to get back on the horse, can't even imagine getting back on the horse.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Or people who, like, are divorced and they were cheated on or betrayal in some other way, like how you trust somebody again, you know, And I actually do think that it's all seeded from the same place, is trust me, trust, you know, because I have to trust that this man won't die on me, not because of his own doing. But just trust in general, right? Trust of God, trust the universe, trust of medical care. And then there's some people who have to trust that this person won't cheat on you. You know, it's like, look, I've had a boyfriend who had a baby on me. So there's that as shit, shit happens. Shit happens.

[Angie Martinez]

Jesus.

[Bozoma Saint John]

You know, but the thing is that like I feel like all of that lack of trust is what then creates the bitterness.

[Angie Martinez]

Yeah.

[Bozoma Saint John]

And then draws up the walls. And so I have to also be very self aware when I start to say things or behave in a way that is showing up because I don't trust you.

[Angie Martinez]

So what do you say to a woman who's having a hard time getting back on the horse?

[Bozoma Saint John]

Oh, God. First of all, get some therapy, okay? You need professional help. We like to talk about healing and go heal sis and all that. And you think it's just a massage. It's not. It's deep rooted work. Get a really great therapist. And by the way, it's not like it needs to cost a lot of money. Just get somebody who gets you and talk to them. It could even be your pastor. But just get some additional help so that you can work out the issues that you have. Because otherwise there is no starting, there's no getting on the horse unless you truly have healed from the things or have the tools to be able to heal.

[Liberty Mutual Ad Voice]

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[Bozoma Saint John]

Hey everyone, check out this guy and his bird.

[Angie Martinez]

What is this, your first date?

[Bozoma Saint John]

Oh, no.

[Liberty Mutual Ad Voice]

We help people customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual together. We're married. Me to a human, him to a bird.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah, the bird looks out of your league.

[Liberty Mutual Ad Voice]

Anyways, get a [e-mail] or with your local agent.

[Angie Martinez]

Liberty.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Liberty.

[Angie Martinez]

Liberty Liberty.

[Robert Smigel]

Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy not quite on Humor Me with Robert Smigel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Jim Gaffigan to Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week. My guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an acapella band with their between songs banter. The worst singer in the group.

[Bozoma Saint John]

The worst.

[Robert Smigel]

Yeah, me. Is there anything to the idea that because you're from Harvard, you only got in because you your parents made a huge donation?

[Bozoma Saint John]

The Yardbirds, right? That's the name.

[Robert Smigel]

The Harvard Yard. They're open.

[Bozoma Saint John]

You have a name suggestion?

[Angie Martinez]

We're open.

[Robert Smigel]

Since you guys are middle aged, one erection. Listen to Humor Me with Robert Smigel and friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Liberty Mutual Ad Voice]

Humble. I need some jokes to make me seem funny.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Tequila, Escucha Central las reinas de quince como parte de my cultura podcast network.

[Angie Martinez]

ELAAB. The iHeartRadio Apple Podcasts or on the

[Bozoma Saint John]

sea a que estus podcasts.

[Angie Martinez]

Why is everyone obsessed with romance right now? Like everyone your co worker who quote

[Bozoma Saint John]

unquote doesn't read is reading romance. Your mom booktok the entire Internet.

[Angie Martinez]

I'm Sanjana bhasker. I'm Tyler McCall and this is Radio 831, a romance podcast. The books, the tropes, the adaptations, the drama, the discourse, and what all of it says about how we actually love, yearn and obsess. We're going to Wuthering Heights, which, for the record, is not a romance novel.

[Bozoma Saint John]

And yet it has haunted the romance genre for 200 years.

[Angie Martinez]

We're getting into dark romance age gaps, certain Russian hockey players and sentient objects in love, which is a thing. That's the kind of conversation we're having every episode. Listen to the Radio 831 podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Bozoma Saint John]

And then, I mean, the other thing, it sounds easy to say, but it's like you gotta. You gotta trust, you know, that's the thing that I'm working on, which is a.

[Angie Martinez]

Is that going.

[Bozoma Saint John]

It's going better.

[Angie Martinez]

Okay, good.

[Bozoma Saint John]

It is going better, you know, and that's why I can also move forward in joy, you know, because otherwise I would be really terrified about the next steps in committing to somebody again in such a public way. Also, I know this is.

[Angie Martinez]

You're doing this publicly now. Yeah. All eyes, all his opinions.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Oh, everybody has an opinion. How do you manage that? I hate it so much.

[Angie Martinez]

That's so honest. Most people would be like, I don't care about. I don't care.

[Bozoma Saint John]

No, no, no, I care. Oh, I care.

[Angie Martinez]

The comments.

[Bozoma Saint John]

You read it. I'm responding. I mean, you know that cat, that. What that's like, that's me in the comments constantly because it gets on my nerves so much. Like, you don't know us, you don't know him. Red flags, whoever, you know. So I, yeah, I gotta respond.

[Angie Martinez]

But you don't let it in. Cause, you know, sometimes you could read something a red flag and Somebody puts a post. Oh, there's a red flag of this. Sometimes outside could start.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Can see something.

[Angie Martinez]

Oh, no, it could seep in. Oh, well, yeah. To the inside.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah. Well, you know how I deal with that is that I just talk about it. I'm really honest about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So actually, funny enough, I was talking to Keely about that last night. Somebody had commented something. I was just like, pissed me off. And I was gonna say, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And he was like, please, please, don't you just like, let it just be. Let it ride. You don't know. Like, we don't know what's going on in their life. Let it just be. You know, because we know that's not true. And I'm like, oh, but still, they shouldn't say that kind of stuff. Yeah. And I just be pissed. But it does help to be able to talk about it. You know, I think for me, what works is not holding things inside.

[Angie Martinez]

Yeah.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Not letting it stew. Like. And while you might think like, oh, let me not go to my partner with that.

[Angie Martinez]

I'm inspired by that.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah. Let me not go to my partner about that. Let me not go to my kid about that. Let me not go to my friend about that. It's like, no, no, no, I'm gonna just go.

[Angie Martinez]

I'm gonna go to all of them.

[Bozoma Saint John]

I'm go to all of them. Hey.

[Angie Martinez]

So they said, and this is how I feel.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah. And that's how I feel about it. I'm pissed about it because I don't think it's true. But like, what do you think about it? You know, and then let's talk it

[Angie Martinez]

out and then you get it out

[Bozoma Saint John]

and then I get it out. And then that way I'm not holding onto it either.

[Angie Martinez]

That's so good.

[Bozoma Saint John]

And yeah, I just definitely don't wanna hold onto anything.

[Angie Martinez]

You had that relationship with your daughter too, as a mother. You mother that way as well.

[Bozoma Saint John]

I mother that way for sure. But that also came out of the grief of losing her dad, you know, Like, I. And again, I've been honest about this before, so now I'm saying anything out of turn. But I was not the one who wanted to start a family. You know, Peter wanted the family. Then I was just like, oh, and then you just die and leave me here. Like you were supposed to be over here helping to raise this person. And she was 4 when he died, you know, and so now I'm looking at this child and I'm like, oh, shoot, like, I've still Got high ambitions, you know, I still. I still want to achieve in my career, but now I have the pressure of, like, oh, God, now people are looking at me because I'm supposed to be this mom who bakes cookies and takes it to the PTA meeting. I don't even like cookies like that. You know what I'm saying? And I don't like to watch the kids movies. I don't like Disneyland. You probably sound like a horrible person. But that's how, like, my relationship with my daughter, I think, became so forged, you know, because I was honest with her about a lot of things at 4, which I know that people were like, you know, you can't tell the kids all the truth. And. But I had a really, really great friend, Melissa Robinson, who was the one who said, you know, you should just tell Ayle the truth. Like, always tell her the truth. And also respecting her enough to hear the things that she wants to do, that's the key that are important to her and honoring that. Right. But also being like, hey, look, we gotta have some balance here. You know what I mean? Cause it's not like every day you say something and then Mommy drops everything, and then does that. Like, it has to be really important. Like, if you want me at this basketball game, let's put it on the calendar. Okay. And that was at 4.

[Angie Martinez]

That's how you talking to your daughter at 4?

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah. I was like, you. You know, you need me to come to this meeting or this play or recital or whatever, Put this. Let's put it down. What's the date? Show me. Show me where your coach or the teacher said, you know, what's the date? So let's look at that. And then let's put. And so she could. She would see that, like, I was intentional with putting her important things on my calendar, and nothing would stop me from coming to the thing. But it wasn't every day, you know, so, yeah, I missed a lot of games. I missed a lot of recitals. Like, I was traveling around, ambitious, trying to get to the next level of my career. But if you asked her today, like, was your mom present? She'd be like, oh, yeah. Cause I was there for all the stuff that she needed and that she wanted. And so for me, it's like, we can have every kind of conversation now because we've had a decade of that.

[Angie Martinez]

That's so good.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah.

[Angie Martinez]

And you're super. Is. She's what, 16?

[Bozoma Saint John]

She's 16. Yeah.

[Angie Martinez]

That's amazing.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Angie Martinez]

How's she dealing with this? Newfound reality and.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Oh, my gosh. Well, I told you, I don't take anybody's opinions about what I do but Lael's. And so I wasn't necessarily asking her permission, but I was informing her to see how she would feel about it. And also saying, like, I'll give you a choice if you want to participate. You know, because I could say, like, hey, look, you can have me, but you can't have my kid. You know, like, I'll talk about all this other stuff with that. That is the, like, fourth rail. Can't do that. So she was very excited, though, which surprised me. Cause we are very different in personality. Like, she's not a showman, you know, she is not the one who's like, you know, wants to be in the mix and conversation. She's very thoughtful and quiet and will say the things that she says and mean it. You know what I mean? So I was that from, though, so. But I've been shocked by how open that she's been. Cause we've had a lot of very serious conversations on the show. We talked about ivf, you know, we talked about, obviously, keely and getting married again. Like, she's had some very, very deep thoughts that I was like, ooh, but the camera's still rolling. You know what I mean?

[Angie Martinez]

And are you okay with that?

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah. And, you know, just being like, hey, you okay with saying that out loud? And she's like, yes, I'm fine.

[Angie Martinez]

Cause you're her mother.

[Bozoma Saint John]

You say something. Yeah.

[Angie Martinez]

So she's just taking it to another level. She's saying the things.

[Bozoma Saint John]

She's saying all the things, you know, on came, but it's been very. That's great, because I feel like we can have those serious conversations. And the reason why it comes across authentically is because that's. That's how we talk to each other normally.

[Angie Martinez]

You were low key, kind of built to do this.

[Bozoma Saint John]

I think you're such a great fit.

[Angie Martinez]

It kind of makes sense. All right, we have a couple of segments we got to do. I just thought they gave me a little time check.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yo.

[Angie Martinez]

I feel like we just started. I know.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Are we done? Hey, guys.

[Angie Martinez]

You ever signed up for a phone plan, thinking, wow, what a great price. And then a few months later, it's like, surprise, your bill is higher. We hate that with Boost mobile. You pay $25 a month forever. That's unlimited talk, text, and data starting at just $25 a month. There's no price hikes. There's no contract. And this is forever. Plus Boost Mobile is now a legit nationwide 5G network. They invested billions building 5G towers across the country. So what you need to do is visit boostmobile.com or head to your local Boost store today and get unlimited talk, text and data for $25 a month. Forever 5G speeds not available in all areas. After 30 gigabytes, customers may experience slower speeds. Customers will pay $25 a month as long as they remain active on the Boost Unlimited plan. Okay, IRL segments ready. We got a bowl. We got a voice note for you. These are we got things. Segment segment time. Are we doing voice. Voice note first? This is our voice note.

[Bozoma Saint John]

What's the voice note note?

[Angie Martinez]

It's usually a fan or listener of the pod. We. We write who's coming by and they send you a note. They send you a voice note. It's usually a question, a comment. Sometimes it's a. I love that. I don't know, a story or something or. Thank you. I don't know what this is. Who do we got?

[Stephen (Caller)]

Hi, Bose, My name is Stephen, and I would love some help here. My wife, she's an absolute beast at work, and I am always telling her to kind of put her. Her wins and her accomplishments out on social media, but she, like, suffers from imposter syndrome. She feels like not only does she not really belong, but she also doesn't want to, like, brag in people's faces. But also, at the end of the day, like, I feel like she's missing out on a lot that what could be coming to her if she was louder about herself. So if you have any advice on good words of encouragement or even more like strategical points here, that would be super helpful. Thank you.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yes.

[Angie Martinez]

What a nice thought.

[Bozoma Saint John]

First of all, first of all, Steven, come on now. Okay, now that's a good husband. The fact. That's a good man.

[Angie Martinez]

The fact that his question is for his wife.

[Bozoma Saint John]

For his wife.

[Angie Martinez]

His girlfriend.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Wife.

[Angie Martinez]

Wife. Right.

[Bozoma Saint John]

We don't know if her name is Savannah, but Savannah. That's a good man. Savannah. No, for real, he's great. Yes. I thought.

[Angie Martinez]

He's being so thoughtful about what's good for you and your future.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yes.

[Angie Martinez]

Yeah.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Okay, now here's the answer for Savannah. We're just gonna call her Savannah because we don't know her name. You're so funny. The thing is, there's two very, very big points. First is about bragging, Right? We very much misinterpret what is just your credits with bragging because you shouldn't talk about the stuff that you didn't do. And that's what we rail against when somebody's telling us about their accomplishments. And it just seems so large because usually it's like, you didn't do all that, and we can tell. So it's like you're talking about the specific things that you did within the larger win. And that's what actually helps with your. Not only your credibility, but the brand, so that people know that, like, ah, Savannah did this. She's good at that. You know, it's like, even for me, like, I'm not great at everything, but I'm exceptional at these few things. And that's what I take credit for. And that's what I talk about so that people know that, like, oh, if you want Bose to do X, Y, and Z, she could do that. Nobody's gonna call me to be the data queen. I'm not that person, you know? You want me to talk to you about why Tupac is important? Fantastic. I got you. You know. You want me to tell you why the NFL is important to this moment in time in sports? I will tell you that, you know, like, I understand pop culture and can tell you all the things you need to do. And by the way, I backed it up with experiences and with programs that I've created. And so that's what Savannah needs to do. It's like you're just talking about the things that you're good at. And so talking about it publicly just takes it to the next level because you're actually talking about the specific role that you played in X, Y, and Z thing, and that is important to do. Next, the imposter syndrome thing, that really gets on my nerves, because I have used this example before about physics, right? That matter is anything. It can be liquid. It can be something solid. But matter is made up of molecules, and each molecule is really important. And so you take a molecule out of a matter, and the matter changes. You add a molecule into the matter, and the matter changes. That is physics. It's science. You are the molecule inside every matter. So whether that is a company, it's the school, it's your softball team, you are the molecule. And so why would you not consider that you are important in the room? You leave that room and it changes because you're not in there. And so therefore, all of the experiences you have, all of the history, the knowledge, et cetera, is important to change in the room. Why else are you there and something brought you there? And then let's go to the math of it, all right? If you go back 12 generations, there's like 12,000 people that it took to create you individual to be in this room.

[Angie Martinez]

How dare you not?

[Bozoma Saint John]

How dare you walk in there with the 4,000? Yeah, they're really important, and they contributed to you being in the room. So, Sis. Savannah, girl, listen, girl, okay? You are the molecule, and you change the matter every room that you're in. So don't have imposter syndrome. You belong in the room. Those 4,000 people work so you could be there. So act like it.

[Angie Martinez]

Live out loud, right?

[Bozoma Saint John]

Hell yeah. Good job, Stephen.

[Angie Martinez]

Yay, Stephen. Hey, guys. Support for this podcast is brought to you by Walden University. Have you ever thought to yourself, what if I could go after what I actually want and I could really make a difference? Well, you are not alone. And this is exactly why I want to tell you about Walden University. For over 50 years, Walden has helped working adults like you get the w with the knowledge, the skills, and everything you need to build the future that you want. And you can make a difference where it matters most. If you've been waiting for the right moment, this is it. Head to Waldenu. Edu and take that first step. Walden University set a course for change. Certified to operate by Shiv. All right, now, this is our IRL bowl.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Okay?

[Angie Martinez]

In real life, bowl filled with questions.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Okay? And I just pick one. Yeah. What is your biggest challenge in this life?

[Angie Martinez]

Oh, my goodness.

[Bozoma Saint John]

What is the biggest challenge in this life for you?

[Angie Martinez]

Everybody's is different. I think everybody's walk is different, you know?

[Bozoma Saint John]

What is the biggest challenge?

[Angie Martinez]

What is your biggest challenge?

[Bozoma Saint John]

My biggest challenge? What is my biggest challenge? That's a very, very hard question.

[Angie Martinez]

It is. Let me think what mine is. Whenever somebody can't. Whenever a hard question. Like, shit, could I answer that if

[Bozoma Saint John]

it was in the bowl? Because the thing is that, like, look, I. I don't have a problem with time because I really enjoy my time, and I'm not scared of, like, how much time I have.

[Angie Martinez]

Really?

[Bozoma Saint John]

No. Like, I used to be scared a lot of, like, death. And, you know, as I said, I told God I don't wanna go anytime soon. But the way that I combat that is that I want every day to be really, really large. You know, not that, like, I'm climbing Everest or anything like that, but meaning that, like, I'm doing exactly what I wanna do, like, every day, urgently, urgently, you know, like, nobody's gonna stop me from doing the thing I wanna do. And in that way, I feel like I will come to the end of my Life, regardless of when it is. And people will be like, God damn, that girl lived. You know, they're gonna be like, she had a big life. Because I lived it exactly how I wanted to. I'm not putting anything off. I'm not like, oh, retirement, and then I'll do X, Y, and Z thing. No, I'm gonna do right now because I don't know if I'm gonna get there. So why not do it? So it's not like a fear of death. It's a motivator for me. I don't know about the challenge 1. It's hard.

[Angie Martinez]

That was a great question. I mean, that was a great answer. It doesn't have to be.

[Bozoma Saint John]

There's no rules.

[Angie Martinez]

There's no rules?

[Bozoma Saint John]

No. Fantastic. Because I don't like rules. No way.

[Angie Martinez]

There's no rules. You talked about your connection to God and hearing his voice.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah.

[Angie Martinez]

What does that sound like? And what do you ask for most? What do you pray for most?

[Bozoma Saint John]

Actually, I pray for discernment all of the time. I just want to know, like, give me the vibes, you know, whether it's people or an opportunity or whatever. Even over email, give me the vibes. Like, lord, just let me know this person is not for you. And I don't care if the person wants to introduce me to me by Oprah. I'm like, I don't want that person. I don't like them. The vibes is not right, you know?

[Angie Martinez]

So is that how your prayer goes? Like you say, give me the vibes? You don't say those things.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Oh, no, I do. Oh, my God. Me and God are homies, man. Yeah. No, no, no, no, no, I don't.

[Angie Martinez]

Dear God, give me the.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Oh, yeah, yeah. No, and that's the other thing. I don't know why people don't talk to God. Just normal.

[Angie Martinez]

I know. Why do you have to, like.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Why do you have to do all the things?

[Angie Martinez]

It's to do with worship, I think.

[Bozoma Saint John]

No, it's to do with worship. No, God. God knows us.

[Angie Martinez]

You can talk normal.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah, I talk normal. And I also get upset when something doesn't happen the way I want.

[Angie Martinez]

I think I close my eyes.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Oh, do you? Yeah.

[Angie Martinez]

You don't?

[Bozoma Saint John]

Not really.

[Angie Martinez]

Eyes open.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah, I'm talking, you know, I mean, it probably, like, if you had a camera there, it probably look nuts, but, you know. But I'm usually talking, like, that's what I'm doing in that hour in the morning. I'm talking. I'm talking. I'm writing things down. I'm like, oh, God. You know what? I forgot to ask you. Could you get this person out of my life? Like, no, I do that all the time. Or like, you know, we'll be in the car on the way here. I'd be like, oh, God. You know, I forgot to say that I need more money for this wedding. So can I have another brand deal? Cause I need one that's gonna pay for this thing.

[Angie Martinez]

And you're just eyes open. Whoever's in the room doesn't talk in front of people.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Oh, yeah?

[Angie Martinez]

Yeah.

[Bozoma Saint John]

I don't know, because people just think that I'm saying, like, oh, God. Like you would say, oh, God, but I'm actually being legit.

[Angie Martinez]

Like, you're actually talking.

[Bozoma Saint John]

I'm actually talking to God. Yeah, yeah. God is always around.

[Angie Martinez]

People think you're being, like, not literal. Like you're being.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah, no, but I'm being literal. I'm actually talking to God in that moment.

[Angie Martinez]

Do you talk to him all the time?

[Bozoma Saint John]

All of the time.

[Angie Martinez]

All day.

[Bozoma Saint John]

All day.

[Angie Martinez]

Wow.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah. All day. Because I think better.

[Angie Martinez]

Maybe that's good. Because it's. If you have a routine. Listen, nobody's way is wrong.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah.

[Angie Martinez]

But if you have a thing where you have to remove yourself, get quiet, whether it's your knees or however you pray. But if. Then you're limited in time.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah, exactly.

[Angie Martinez]

If you're talking to him.

[Bozoma Saint John]

If you're talking all the time, then you don't feel limited. But I do think it's important for me as a first thing in the morning, that first upon waking, that I am in some sort of communication with God. That's really, really important to me. And a lot of times, I mean, I don't know if this happens to you, but I wake up with things on my mind, and so then I know immediately I gotta go to God, you know? Because whatever's on my mind, like, if it's fear or there's some trepidation or like some big hope, I'm like, oh, God, you gotta make this work. You know? And then I'll follow up with like. But only if you want it to, though, because I don't know what else you got.

[Angie Martinez]

Only if it's your will.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Okay, yes. Because I might be wanting this thing, but if I shouldn't have it, don't let me have it.

[Angie Martinez]

I don't want it.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Okay. I'm not asking you. Just give it to me. Give it to me. Give it to me. Because it's the best thing.

[Angie Martinez]

We even pray similar. That's so funny.

[Bozoma Saint John]

RV you do that too?

[Angie Martinez]

I really want this, but only if you want it for me. Because I don't want it if you don't want it.

[Bozoma Saint John]

No, no, no. I don't want it. Like, if it's gonna mess me up, don't give it to me.

[Angie Martinez]

And even if I don't understand that, I trust. I trust you.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Oh, that part, too. Yeah. You gotta. You gotta have trust.

[Angie Martinez]

Yeah.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah. God's got your back for sure. Yeah. That's so good.

[Angie Martinez]

All right, I have some IRLs for you.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Okay.

[Angie Martinez]

What do you want people to learn about you in real life if they can learn one thing from your life?

[Bozoma Saint John]

That. I really don't take myself that seriously.

[Angie Martinez]

Really?

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah. Like, I really love the fun. I love the fun in life.

[Angie Martinez]

If you were the leader of the world, the whole world.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yes.

[Angie Martinez]

What would be the first thing that you would do?

[Bozoma Saint John]

Redraw the maps.

[Angie Martinez]

This is the first matter of business.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah. First map.

[Angie Martinez]

You've thought this through before?

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah, I have. I have. What does it look like? I think it just says it such a disservice.

[Angie Martinez]

What do you mean?

[Bozoma Saint John]

Like, the maps. The maps make us feel like we are beholden to a certain group of people, and then it keeps out other people. Like, that's why I feel like the problems with racism and immigration, all these things stem from maps that were drawn by white men in a room together. Like, get rid of all the maps. I'm redrawing them.

[Angie Martinez]

So what would your world look like?

[Bozoma Saint John]

Oh, gosh. Well, probably. Yeah, I just circle it by language or something like that. You know what I mean? Like, interest types. Everybody who loves the color red over there, if you love greens over there. Now redraw the map.

[Angie Martinez]

That's pretty good. It's a good rule of business. What should people care less about?

[Bozoma Saint John]

Well, I mean, this is gonna sound so silly, but they should care less about other people's opinions. Like, that affect their life. You know, don't make the decision based on what your mom thinks.

[Angie Martinez]

Yeah.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Or your best friend, even.

[Angie Martinez]

Yeah.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah.

[Angie Martinez]

Listening to what you say, they have

[Bozoma Saint John]

no idea what's right for you. They're talking usually out of their fear for your life.

[Angie Martinez]

In real life. Last piece of great advice someone has given you.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Last piece of great advice. Oof. That's hard because I really don't take people's advice. Okay, that's good.

[Angie Martinez]

That's your answer? That's your answer?

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah. All right.

[Angie Martinez]

In life. In real love. In real life.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Oh, yes.

[Angie Martinez]

What? What is something you absolutely need and require in A partner.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Oh, I love. I need affection. Like, physical touch, you know, I need you to squeeze me, slap my butt as I walk by. That kind of thing.

[Angie Martinez]

If you had a rule book about love, what would be, like, in bold, like, what is your rule? One of your rules.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Talk to me nice. Okay. No, I'm saying, like, Right? Words lead to action. Yeah. It's not to be nice.

[Angie Martinez]

Okay. Love and friendships. What's the bet? Because you have so many best friends.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Oh, my gosh. Don't get me in trouble now.

[Angie Martinez]

No, you don't have to. You don't have to name your favorite. You don't have to name your favorite. But what is a quality that is necessary to have a good friend, to be a good friend?

[Bozoma Saint John]

I think presence, like, you know, being present. And it doesn't need to be, like, in person, but, like, the check in the. You know, it's like, if you see something about me online, you need to call me and be like, girl, you want me to go beat them up? Yes, bitch, go over there. You know what I mean? Be present in my life,

[Angie Martinez]

in real life. How important is money to you?

[Bozoma Saint John]

Very important. Yeah. I mean, people say it's like, you know, money can't buy you happiness. Really? I beg to differ. Give me the money, baby. Yeah. No. What are you talking about? That's so funny.

[Angie Martinez]

But you were always kind of happy. No, like.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah, but money made me happier.

[Angie Martinez]

It did. Okay, kid.

[Bozoma Saint John]

I get to go wherever I want, do what I want. Yeah. Money's good.

[Angie Martinez]

You're into it.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah, very much. Give me more. Matter of fact, what is a habit

[Angie Martinez]

that you are proud of?

[Bozoma Saint John]

Oh, my. Discipline.

[Angie Martinez]

What is a habit that you're trying to break?

[Bozoma Saint John]

Ooh, some. Some of my spontaneity. Really? Yeah. Why? Yeah. Well, because. You know what? Okay, so this is a longer story, but I'll cut it short, which is that my dad is notoriously spontaneous. And it's spontaneous in a big way. Like, meaning, like, he would, you know, see another job he wanted and then move us across continental, you know, that kind of thing. And. Or, like, you know, go buy something that was expensive that we couldn't afford, you know, to make my mom very upset and put all of the rest of us in, like, challenges. I hated that behavior, but sometimes I find that in myself that, like, if I really fixate on something, and then I'm like, by any means, I'm gonna go do that thing. Sometimes it's worked out, sometimes it hasn't.

[Angie Martinez]

It's probably pushed you, though, right?

[Bozoma Saint John]

It has it has. So that's why, you know, I'm like. Like, sometimes I'm like, all right, let me just make sure it's countered with good sense. Yeah.

[Angie Martinez]

And what is left to you? Like, what is the. I don't know. What is left for you? To what mountain are you trying to.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Oh, now see, now that's. That's the key, you know, I don't make. I don't make plans. I don't make, like one year plans, five year plans, 10 year. I don't make any of those. No, no, no. Because I just feel like the world is my oyster and, like, big things are coming. I just feel so limited. If I was like, oh, you know what? This is what I want to do in the next 10 years. Why, like, nobody. Zero plans. No, I don't have a plan for this year. Or, like, people make resolutions and the things they want to do in the. I don't really have that because I just feel, like, fascinating the world is. The opportunities are out there and they're just going to be mine. So come on, bring it.

[Angie Martinez]

Oh, there's my favorite question. Look at. It's poking right out.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Oh, is it?

[Angie Martinez]

Okay, before you leave. This is my favorite question. It is my favorite question. Okay, we're gonna go out with this.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Okay.

[Angie Martinez]

But before we go out with this, was there anything on your heart today or anything that.

[Bozoma Saint John]

You know, I just was so happy to be here.

[Angie Martinez]

Me too. I had so much fun with you.

[Bozoma Saint John]

I was so glad to come.

[Angie Martinez]

I could. We could do a. Like, if we did a podcast together, I feel like we would have something to talk about every single day.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Every day.

[Angie Martinez]

Every single day.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Every day we would have something to talk about. Okay.

[Angie Martinez]

People will be sick of us both. Oh, my God, I'm so sick of us. Anyway, I would love for you to come back.

[Bozoma Saint John]

I would love to.

[Angie Martinez]

I would love to.

[Bozoma Saint John]

We have a lot to talk about. Okay, here's your question. You're fine.

[Angie Martinez]

You want me to read it or you read it?

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah, here, I'll read it. All right.

[Angie Martinez]

No, you read it. Okay, last question out the.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Oh, if God were to text you right now, what would God say? Oh, what would God say?

[Angie Martinez]

Take your time with it, Bose. Take your time.

[Bozoma Saint John]

If God were to text me right now,

[Angie Martinez]

Let it come.

[Bozoma Saint John]

I think God would say it's going to be all right. It's going to be all right. Yeah. Simple. Yeah. Like in that half faith type, you know, because I'm often talking about things that I know if I just have faith, it'd be all right. And so I think God would be like, he'll be all right. Chill out. Chill out, Bose. It's okay.

[Angie Martinez]

You would throw a chill out in there?

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah. Oh, absolutely. God would tell me to chill out, be like, relax, Bose, relax. So it's gonna be all right. And that's what God would text me. Aw. I'm gonna remember that. That's a good one.

[Angie Martinez]

I love that for you. You're amazing.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Thank you. Yes.

[Angie Martinez]

The Bose in real life.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Hi, this is Bose in Real Life.

[Angie Martinez]

Hey, guys, thanks for watching. Make sure you subscribe, like, comment and check out all of the other episodes we have on Andrew Martinez, IRL podcast. This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.