Angie Martinez IRL - Laverne Cox: Stop Earning Love and Start Deserving It

Summary

Podcast Summary: Joe and Jada

Angie Martinez IRL – Laverne Cox: Stop Earning Love and Start Deserving It

Release Date: June 11, 2026

Episode Focus: An Unfiltered Conversation with Laverne Cox on Trauma, Healing, Identity, and Deserving Love

---

Episode Overview

This episode features Laverne Cox—Emmy-winning actress, author, and influential transgender advocate—in an in-depth and vulnerable conversation. Laverne unpacks her new memoir "Transcendent," reflects on her childhood and identity formation, discusses the intersections of race and gender, and reveals what it truly means to stop earning love and start believing you deserve it. Hosted by Felice (Angie Martinez IRL), the tone is direct, emotionally sincere, at times humorous, always anchored in a spirit of healing, honesty, and advocacy.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Speaking Out Against Racism and Transphobia

• Courage in Current Times: Laverne discusses the challenges of calling out racism and transphobia, especially in a climate where backlash is common. She connects this with her own fears about career impact and the necessity of truth-telling.

  "The past few years, I felt kind of afraid... because I was afraid to lose opportunities... but somebody has to tell the truth. And when the history books look back, I want to be a Christian Dior, not a Coco Chanel." — Laverne Cox (03:33)

• On Systemic Issues: The conversation delves into voting rights, the long shadow of slavery and Jim Crow, and the resilience of those who fight for social progress.

  "We can't get past [racism] if we don't even acknowledge that it happened... The south should have been punished for seceding from the Union. They never were punished. They were actually given reparations." — Laverne Cox (07:57)

• Trans Issues and Media: She critiques how media and politics have manufactured a “trans boogeyman,” noting that trans voices are often excluded from debates about their rights.

  "It's really obvious how the media has, like, done a hit job on trans people to dehumanize us and manufacture [fear]..." — Laverne Cox (18:28)

2. Trauma, Family History, and Healing

• Generational Trauma: Laverne explores how traumas—racism, abuse, family estrangement—transmit through generations. She credits therapy and group support for her own healing.

  "My therapist thinks [my mother] was a narcissist. And that would explain a lot... But I loved my mother so much. And I thought if I made all A's and was really good, she would love me..." — Laverne Cox (33:37)

• Survival Strategies: She introduces the concept of trauma responses—fight, flight, freeze, fawn/tend-and-befriend—describing her own childhood inclination to "fawn" and seek approval.
• Cycle of Abuse in Relationships: Laverne openly shares how trauma led her to repeat harmful relationship patterns, and what it took to break free.

  "Trauma survivors turn alarm bells into dinner bells and dinner bells into alarm bells... The hardwiring is to pick the abusive man because he reminds me of the [parent]." — Laverne Cox (43:51)

• Boundaries as Self-Care: She describes learning to set boundaries and let go of guilt.

  "I've learned to not feel guilt for taking care of myself... Drawing boundaries means I can't pour from an empty cup." — Laverne Cox (54:14, 57:34)

3. Identity, Gender, and Representation

• Early Dreams and Inspirations: Laverne recounts her childhood fascination with Black history icons and her certainty, from age six, that she would become a groundbreaking performer.

  "At six years old, I was like, how cool would it be if through my art, I could make things better for people who follow me?" — Laverne Cox (32:25)

• Gender Nonconformity and Bullying: She recalls how her femininity was policed from a young age, leading her to internalize shame.

  "That was the turning point... before that, I was just kind of free... And after that, I started censoring myself and trying to rein in my mannerisms." — Laverne Cox (51:43)

• New York Nightlife and Self-Expression: Moving from Alabama to NYC at 21, Laverne found liberation in the ‘90s club scene—describing it as a time when “everybody partied together,” and where difference could be celebrated, even as street-level harassment persisted.

  "At nighttime I was a celebrity, a star... It was a wonderful thing to be celebrated for something I was bullied for." — Laverne Cox (66:52)

4. Writing "Transcendent" and the Three-Part Healing Journey

• Memoir Structure: The book is framed in three parts:
  1. What’s wrong with me?
  2. What happened to me?
  3. What’s right with me?
• Therapeutic Process: Writing unearthed long-buried memories and helped her recognize how childhood trauma shaped adult life.
• Taking Accountability: A major healing insight: as adults, we are responsible for our own healing, despite what happened in childhood.

  "Once I'm an adult, I'm responsible for my life and how I respond to my childhood... There are systemic things that are real, but what's my 50%, what can I control?" — Laverne Cox (62:27)

5. Wisdom on Love, Worthiness, and Community

• Stop Earning Love—Start Deserving It: Laverne and Felice unpack how attempts to earn love shaped their lives, the importance of unlearning that pattern, and embracing self-worth.
• Value of the Trans Community: Laverne notes the anointed spirituality and wisdom within the trans community, drawing on global indigenous histories that recognized more than two genders:

  "What people should know... is that the gender binary is a Western construct. Indigenous cultures all over the world have always moved beyond male/female." — Laverne Cox (85:09)

• On Legacy:

  "My career shows it's possible... I was the first [to achieve, but] I'm not the last. Now other trans people see the possibilities." — Laverne Cox (78:28)

• Prayers and Affirmations:

  "God, give me permission to do this imperfectly and allow me to be of service." — Laverne Cox (89:05)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Courage:

  "I feel like myself when I get to say what the f*** I need to say." — Laverne Cox (24:17)

• On Boundaries:

  "With great boundaries, I can be more compassionate." — Laverne Cox (58:05)

• On Intersectionality:

  "Black women, especially in the south, the depths of misogyny and racism colliding... It's kind of amazing that [my mother] is even still standing." — Laverne Cox (49:24)

• On Healing:

  “The trauma lives in the body… There’s a difference between knowing the path and walking it.” — Laverne Cox (42:17)

---

Important Timestamps

• [03:33] — Laverne on the risks of speaking out and choosing to be truthful.
• [06:57–09:53] — Deep dive into voting rights, Jim Crow, and collective denial about racism.
• [18:28–22:16] — Media-driven transphobia and the power of dehumanizing rhetoric.
• [33:37–37:25] — Family dynamics, disassociation, and the roots of approval-seeking.
• [43:51] — Trauma repeating itself in adult relationships: the “alarm bells/dinner bells” concept.
• [54:14–58:05] — Setting boundaries and letting go of guilt; lessons from Brené Brown.
• [62:27] — Responsibility for one’s adult life and healing, despite the past.
• [66:52] — Finding acceptance and affirmation in ’90s NYC nightlife.
• [78:28] — Laverne’s pride in being the “first” but not the last, and on legacy.

---

Final Speed Round & Reflections (79:16–89:44)

• Superpower: "Empathy."
• No longer available for: "People, places, and things that will allow me to betray myself."
• On being strong: "I didn't realize I was strong until I stepped back and took a look at what I endured."
• Advice for allies:

  "Listen more than you speak... Elevate the lived experiences of trans people. When you see transphobia, say something with love."

• Personal Prayer:

  "God, give me permission to do this imperfectly and allow me to be of service."

---

Takeaways

• Laverne Cox’s journey is one of vulnerability, resilience, and radical honesty about the pain and power of being a Black trans woman in America.
• Boundaries and self-compassion are crucial for healing, especially for trauma survivors.
• Visibility and storytelling are forms of activism—helping others “see themselves” and shifting the narrative around marginalized communities.
• True allyship means listening, uplifting authentic voices, and challenging injustice when you witness it.

---

For More:
Check out Laverne Cox’s memoir "Transcendent" and follow her for more insights on healing, representation, and advocacy.

Listen to the episode for the full context and emotional resonance that only Laverne can deliver.

Transcript

[Laverne Cox]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.

[Jeff T]

This is Jeff T from the Club 520 podcast. This is a performance you do not want to miss. The Dell xps Powered by Intel Core Ultra. It's got the sauce, we're talking speed, style, stamina, bam and a long lasting battery life unheard of in this league. Look at the hustle. Is there anything a laptop can't do? The Dell xps built for those who have the right moves. Find find [e-mail] XPS Bill for you

[Colin Coward]

Hi, it's Colin Coward from the Colin Coward Podcast. Every goal starts with an assist. As Official partners of U.S. soccer, this team is ready to deliver. Sensodyne Dentist recommended defense of your sensitive teeth Centrum Fueling your day with science backed nutrients Advil of course Powerful Inflammation fighting pain relief Voltaren Arthritis Gel helps penetrate deep, keeps the joints moving and tums ready to counterattack with fast heartburn relief. Learn how Halion can assist your game day [e-mail] Con this is Daniel Cormier

[Daniel Cormier]

from the Daniel Cormier Show. This podcast is sponsored by Total Wireless, the official wireless partner of ufc. Power doesn't wait in the octagon or outside of it. You either make the move or or you missed a moment. That's why you need a network that's just as powerful as you are. With Total Wireless, you get unlimited 5G data keeping you in the action from the walkouts to the knockouts. Now that's a total power move. Make your total power move today. Visit totalwireless.com or stop by your neighborhood Total Wireless store. Additional terms apply. See totalwireless.com for details.

[Laverne Cox]

When you own your own business, you own every decision.

[Colin Coward]

Catch the red eye or take the

[Cindy Crawford]

6am Make a new hire or promote internally.

[Laverne Cox]

Celebrate a win with the toast at the gate or unwind at the lounge. Big props to this team. Some decisions are a win win like earning eight times points on Chase Travel Chase Sapphire reserved for business the business card that gives back all you put in. Visit chase.com ReserveBusiness to learn more. Cards issued by JP Morgan Chase Bank. Any member FDIC subject to credit approval terms apply. Trauma survivors turn alarm bells into dinner bells and dinner bells into alarm bells.

[Felice]

It's insane, but it's really kind of common. I think everybody it's childhood trauma. It's different versions of childhood trauma.

[Laverne Cox]

I realized, well, my mother's still alive. Maybe I can work on this with her.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

Thanks for watching guys. Today's episode is brought to you by Boost Mobile.

[Laverne Cox]

We need to start calling it what it is. We're in this period in time where we are, like, conservatives have made us so afraid to actually just say racist or we're dismissed when we call something racist. Oh, they're being hyperbolic. Like, people will dismiss. Dismiss us sometimes, and we just, like, say, this is racist. But I mean, there's. This is, like. This is not a nuanced thing.

[Felice]

No, no.

[Laverne Cox]

None of this was nuanced racism. This was not like a microaggression. This was like he was making watermelon and fried chicken jokes. I mean, girl, like, it wasn't just that.

[Felice]

Are we in, like, can we stop

[Laverne Cox]

with the George Floyd? Can we stop it off?

[Felice]

Yeah, we're on camera already. I don't know how comfortable you want to talk about this at all.

[Laverne Cox]

You know, I hadn't planned on it, but here we go. I think we. I think. I think we need to. I'm. You know, I've had.

[Felice]

We jumped into conversation. I'm gonna stop in a second and introduce our guests. But I do wanna finish this thought because what you were saying.

[Laverne Cox]

Well, the past few years, I've def. I felt kind of afraid because. To say what's on my mind because I was afraid to lose opportunities. And I. You know, people are just not effing with trans people right now. No, but people are never. And even effing with trans people now, and we're in a fascist state. So I'm like, somebody has to tell the truth. And when the history books look back, I want to be a Christian Dior, not a Coco Chanel. And for those who don't know, like, Coco Chanel is, like, a known Nazi sympathizer, and Dior opposed the Nazis. Anyway, some of it's in that. The New look show that was on HBO or Showtime or something. But anyway, we were talking about the Kevin Hart roast,

[Felice]

and you jumped in the comments.

[Laverne Cox]

I was in the comments, and I was like, he's known. Tony Hinchcliffe is known for making racist humor. So he's gonna show up and be racist. And then I didn't watch the whole roast. I just watched. I just saw clips. And I was like, chelsea killed it. And then I kept, you know, watching the interview, and then he said something else, and then I don't remember. I have to actually pull up my phone. But then he was saying racial humor, Kev, with saying racial human. I was like, racist. It feels like when you say something that's racial, like, it's racist. It's just. It's just racist. And it's his decision. It's for him to like, I'm assuming, and I could be wrong. People can correct me if I'm wrong. That a roast that he's involved in, he has to prove everyone who's there. I know the jokes were pre approved. I actually read something that there were all these jokes against Trump that were taken out. Did you hear this? I read, I read this recently. I didn't check the sources. I, you know, I want to like to double triple check sources, but apparently there were a bunch of jokes that were anti Trump that were taken out after. So the people who saw it live heard those jokes, but the recorded version, they're out. So things could have been taken out. So it's an interesting decision to have a blatant racist. I mean, that Nazi rally that they had at Madison Square Garden when Trump was running in 2024, I remember I was talking to, I was talking to someone and they were like, oh, yeah, people are calling this a Nazi rally. People don't like that. And I said, yes, a lot of racist. People love doing and saying racist things, but hate being called racist, man.

[Felice]

They don't enjoy that part.

[Laverne Cox]

It's. And that's. And the offense seems to be like calling on racist rather than the actual racist activity. And that really speaks to the partly, like, Trump has emboldened people to just let it all hang out, because he does so he's given that he's created a permission structure for people to let it all hang out. But it also exposes this, along with the recent Supreme Court decision that gutted the Voting Rights Act. I think exposes what I've always known is that we've never really fully dealt with, like, our racist history in this country.

[Felice]

Oh, God, no.

[Laverne Cox]

Like, not even close. And to have, like, I mean, we, as people of color, we know this, as black folks, we know this. But like, we, I think we need to keep saying it. I think we need to. This is why. This is why they don't want to teach history either. But I find I'm, I'm slowly working. I have this idea, like for a video essay or an essay about Justice John Roberts, because I think he is a really interesting case study of someone who I'm, you know, from Mobile, Alabama, and I did not know about the Supreme Court decision and Mobile versus Bolton until a few weeks ago. Literally a few weeks ago. And I'm from Mobile, and that case was decided by the Supreme Court in 1980 that said that unintentional racism, like, racism that you didn't intend, like, yeah, unintentional. You didn't intend for something to be racist in terms of law restricting voting. But the outcome is racist. It is not a violation of the Voting Rights Act. Two years later, Congress and the Reagan administration violates. But Congress was Democratic, amended the Voting Rights act to say that unintentional. Like, if the impact of a law restricting voting has a racist outcome, than it is a violation of the Voting Rights Act. And when you think about Jim Crow, when they were passing, when they had poll taxes and literacy tests, they weren't saying, we are instituting poll taxes and literacy tests to keep black people from voting. But again, the impact is racist, is racist, and is disenfranchising black voters. So according to the letter of the law of the Voting Rights act, as it stood Calais should be a violation of the Voting Rights Act. But the Supreme Court is also insisting, as they did in 2013 when they overturned preclearance, that racism doesn't exist anymore in America. That we've moved past that. The fact that they had to keep extending the Voting Rights act, too, suggests that, like, at some point we're gonna be past this racist thing, but we can't get past it if we don't even acknowledge that it happened. If we are constantly trying to rewrite history. The rise of all the Confederate statues that happened in the early 1900s, that was an attempt to make people forget and to, like, valorize the South. The south should have been punished for succeeding from the Union. They never were punished. They were actually given reparations. I mean, like, can you imagine this? The first time I read this, like, after emancipation, instead of giving reparations to the group of people who were enslaved, created as chattel slavery for centuries. Never mind the mental health piece. Right. I interviewed Dr. Joy DeGru.

[Felice]

Wow.

[Laverne Cox]

On my podcast a few years ago. And she coined the term post Traumatic slave syndrome. And she, like, said, you know, she was like, there was no mass movement to deal with the mental health of a population that has been dehumanized for and made to work for free as chattel slaves for hundreds of years. Intergenerationally, that's deep trauma.

[Felice]

So no reparations, no mental reparations.

[Laverne Cox]

We can get to get to other things. But I think it's.

[Felice]

I don't know. We went. Right.

[Laverne Cox]

It's all like, this is.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

That's means.

[Felice]

Because this was on your spirit today.

[Laverne Cox]

It's on my spirit, honey.

[Felice]

Yeah.

[Laverne Cox]

But it's important that people know or reminded that when apartheid was abolished in South Africa, they created a new constitution. We were living in an apartheid state until 1965. Black people did not have the full freedoms that the 14th and 15th amendment it gave us until 1965 when we had the Voting Rights act, we were still not equal in terms of our franchise. So we've only really been a democracy since 1965. And the moment that Voting Rights act was passed, there were people working to overturn it. And basically they have. And it's that and the Dobbs decision from a few years ago are reminders that these conservatives are relentless. They have a long game and they won't stop. There is constantly, like systems in place. And I think that's why having a systemic critique and being critical of systems and ideologies is more effective than like, you know, attacking individuals. I think we love individuals, understand that we've all. We are all struggling, all trying to figure it out. All trying to figure it out.

[Felice]

Everyone has done the work.

[Laverne Cox]

No. And. Or don't even know or don't even know where to start.

[Felice]

Sometimes you have to meet people where

[Laverne Cox]

they are too, because sometimes people don't know where to start. And then sometimes what I realized with. In some situations, some people don't even have a framework to understand what you're talking about. My ex, I don't want to talk too much about him, but like he. White dude, Long Island.

[Felice]

I saw that somewhere you dated. He was like a MAGA supporter or something.

[Laverne Cox]

He was not me. He was a MAGA supporter.

[Felice]

But how could you with all this.

[Laverne Cox]

How could I date him with all of this on your heart and your spirit know. I didn't know that.

[Felice]

Did you not know?

[Laverne Cox]

Well, in the beginning. That's interesting. That, I mean, I, I, you know, I think where I had been with dating is that like, I just would choose not to go there. Like when I, when I met. So when I met and the screening process was different, you look the way the screening process is different. I was not looking for a boyfriend when I met him. I was literally. I was living between LA and New York. I was looking for a consistent friend with benefits in LA and a consistent friend with benefits in New York. You didn't do a full workup. That's a different vetting. I'm not trying to like, I'm not trying to like, be your life partner. I'm just like, you know, is it going to, are you going to be respectful? But also respectful. I Even for, you know, a friend with benefit or f. Buddy or whatever you want to call it. I did I require certain levels of respect and accountability and all the things. So that was the vetting, initial vetting. And then he told me he was in commercial real estate. That was a lie. He was actually a cop. So once I found out all these things, I was attached to him and I fell in love with them. And I didn't plan on any of that. And so I had always imagined that, like, you can have conversations and maybe love across political differences. And so that's what I was trying to do. But that didn't work like it was. It was clear to me that there was not even a frame that, like, he was just so dug in. There's. I asked him at one point after we broke up, these are questions I didn't ask while we were dating because maybe I didn't want to know the answer. I was like, have you ever had a moment in your life where you realized everything that you've been told is a lie and you had to, like, let go of all that and relearn everything? And he said, no, I just try to be the best person I can be. And I was like, hey, guys.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

Today's show is brought to you by our presenting sponsor, Hard Rock Bet. Being rebellious doesn't mean quitting your job and moving to an island. Sometimes being rebellious means taking a few minutes to do exactly whatever it is

[Felice]

that you want to do.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

And that's where Hard Rock Bet comes in, where your inner rebel plays. And if you're in New Jersey or Michigan, the Hard Rock Bet casino app has thousands of your favorite games from the casino floor, like blackjack, roulette, whatever you like. And what I really appreciate from Hard Rock Bet, there is no nonsense when you sign up. What you see is what you get if you don't win. In your first 24 hours after signing up, you get up to $1,000 back in casino bonus to play again. Plus you get bonus spins. Cash eruption with winnings paid in cash. Now, Florida, listen up. Hard Rock Bet isn't forgetting about y'.

[Felice]

All.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

If you like slots, they have something for you, too. Check out games powered by Pass Motor Racing. It's not a social casino. These are real money games that are thrilling and fun and exciting and you can play with as little as 20 cents or you can try your luck at a bigger win, all the way up to a million bucks. And the best part again, there's no gimmicks. So if you're ready to take some time today for yourself, download the Hard Rock Bet app and make your first deposit. That's the Hard rock bet casino where your inner rebel plays.

[Felice]

But how could you even wrap your brain around if he's in love with you back? How could you even be wrap your brain around being in love and loving a trans woman, but also supporting a system that strips away her rights?

[Laverne Cox]

And I think it's a cognitive dissonance. It's a compartmentalization. It's a. By the time 2024, I broke up with him in March, last week in March 2024. So that was like two years. Yeah, two years ago. So. And I blocked him. And then, like, at one point we started talking. No, I, I. After a relationship is over, I like.

[Felice]

You block.

[Laverne Cox]

Yeah. At least for, for 30 days. For sure. No contact for 30 days.

[Felice]

Interesting.

[Laverne Cox]

I think because I. A friend of mine in a, in a group therapy situation suggested that years ago, because when you're in a relationship, when you're talking every day, if you break up and you're still talking every day, you're not separating.

[Felice]

Yeah.

[Laverne Cox]

So it's a 30 days no contact. And then, like, I remember, like we did the contact after the 30 days. He, like, reached out and I was like. And then I just remember sometime during the. Because of election season, and I asked him that question. It was after we broke up about, like, have you ever. So I just think what I realized for him is that the whole. He's. He was white. He is white. He's a white dude, still blonde hair, blue eyes, not the smartest guy I've ever dated. Like, I and I, in the beginning, it was great.

[Felice]

Yo, you're so funny.

[Laverne Cox]

I'm just, I'm being. In the beginning, it was great because my life, obviously, I'm very heady. I'm going on podcasts talking about shit like this. So it was like, fun, just like to go. Go home and just have fun and not have it be deep. But if he, if he asked any of these questions of himself, he would have to, like, everything that has been set up for him. He would have to like, interrogate. And he doesn't. It's like, what would he be left with if he realized, like, the privilege, the how the system that he was working for, the like, the racist system that he is, like, enforcing and has pledged allegiance to, it would shake his whole found. He would have an existential crisis. But that's part of life. But, like, it would really rock everything. So it's just too much. And it's so dug in deep too, with him and his family. And it was just fascinating. That's why I'm not with him.

[Felice]

Yeah. But it's also fascinating because I always try to wrap my reign around how. How do people get. But you're kind of describing, like, that

[Laverne Cox]

being in a relationship with him and being. And it's in its. We're in a place now.

[Felice]

I'm gonna pull you out of this in a second.

[Laverne Cox]

Cause we want to talk about this for you. We're in a place now where, like, because of the Internet, we dehumanize a lot. Right. We, like, we're kind of. We don't always think about people as full human beings because of who they voted for, or it's anonymous online, or the media has manufactured consent. I mean, the way. It's really obvious how the media has, like, done a hit job on trans people to dehumanize us and manufacture, like, through sports, through language and images. Language like mutilating children, men in girls, sports. What does that evoke? They're not. It's the one thing men and girls, sports, mutilating children, all of this language that, like, does not encourage. And then talking about trans issues, right? Like, we were like, we us and immigrants were the most discussed groups of people during the 2024 election, but we were nowhere in sight. People weren't bringing us on to talk about these things. They were. They created a trans boogeyman, a straw man. Trans, but trans boogeyman. And just, like, created all this myth around us. And people are. Have bought. Dug deep into it. And it's deep watching people, like, repeat these talking points. So, like, the dehumanization. And it's not just with trans people. It's with, obviously with immigrants. They're eating cats and dogs black, and then now it extends to murderers. Yeah, it's gross. And so, like, I think, like, just for our own mental health in this moment, like, how do we, like, see each other as human beings? And a lot of that is, like, for me, it's always starting with, like, myself and what I have to work on first. Like, whenever I'm like. And even in. When I was in the comment section, like, you know, commenting on Kevin's interview, I wasn't attacking him because I'm not perfect. But we're all in a process. Like, he's a human being who has blind spots, maybe because he needs to for the money for. Who knows? But, like, even. But Kevin, though, around accountability. I remember when he. The Oscars controversy, and I think it was an old tweet where he said that if his son was gay, he would beat him or Something. And he, like, he ended up. He withdrew from the Oscars. I don't think they fired him. And then I remember he would. He was doing it. He was talking to Lil Nas X that. Remember LeBron James had a barbershop show or something on HBO? And then he was just like, why does sexuality matter? And it was just kind of like, why does your sexuality matter? Feels like, you know, I don't see color, right? It's like, I don't see color. It matters because for Lil Nas X, as a black man who's in hip hop, like, he's going to be treated differently. I mean, we've seen all of the homophobia that he's experienced it in a perfect world, it doesn't matter. And it shouldn't matter. Like, we are all human beings. We. But the only reason these things. And they're all social constructs anyway, but the reasons they matter is because people are oppressed because of these things. The reason that race matters is because we live in a racist culture. And so that's why we have to talk about it. Because if we want, like, if we believe that everybody should have rights and should be seen as human and have access to healthcare and employment and all the things, we have to actually talk about the thing. And it should, shouldn't be. And the only way to really do that is to create safety. We can't. Oh, my God. Torre has been killing. Do you know Torre, the journalist? His channel. His YouTube channel is sticking. But he was talking about. He had a show with that woman, that doctor. Dr. Bryant.

[Felice]

Dr. Bryant, yes.

[Laverne Cox]

And she was. He was. The clip. He did. He did a whole screed about her, but she was. He was saying that corporal punishment, like, you know, beating your children is not an effective thing to do. It's not right. And then most psychologists agree. And then she disagreed and said that, like, you. It's okay to be your children and all, you know, then like, he pulls up a clip of, like, a professional saying that, like, when you're beating a child, that they're actually in survival mode. So you're in limpic brain, right? So, like, we have, like. And when we're in survival mode, when we're in fight, fight or freeze, we can't process information. So it's actually not. You have to be in your resilience. You have to be in your prefrontal cortex, and you have to feel safe when you don't. When we don't feel safe, we go into the fight, flight or freeze, and then we can't Process information. So the only way we can process information is, like, in environments of safety. It's neuroscience. It's scientific. So I'm like, let's. Let's bring back safe spaces. Do we feel like this is a safe space so we can like. I do. Yeah, I do. I love you. I love you, by the way. I love you.

[Felice]

I'm just sitting here in awe of you.

[Laverne Cox]

I'm. I talk a lot.

[Felice]

This is inside of you all day long.

[Laverne Cox]

I know. It's a lot.

[Felice]

Oh, my God, Laverne.

[Laverne Cox]

I have to, like, check out and, like, watch. Watch. Like, silly. I was TV or something.

[Felice]

You have so much great shit to say. So I just was letting you go, but my God, I was like, we have to get to this podcast.

[Laverne Cox]

Yes. And I. And my note to myself in these podcasts is to talk less, listen more, and really be in dialog, in conversation. So I'm constantly giving my self notes and trying to be better.

[Felice]

Oh, my God.

[Laverne Cox]

At everything I do.

[Felice]

You're so good, though. So it's okay. It's like you're not. It's not like you're saying things that don't need to be said.

[Laverne Cox]

I appreciate. I agree. That's why I'm saying it.

[Felice]

Yeah. No, I get.

[Laverne Cox]

And having the courage to say it right now, too. I think people are scared, and I'm scared. I'm scared, too. But I feel like myself when I can just. Yeah, I love that for you. And I can just.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

It's a scary time.

[Laverne Cox]

Get my. Get my off. Can we curse?

[Felice]

Yes, please.

[Laverne Cox]

I feel like myself when I get to say what the I need to say.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

All right, so Laverne came in here

[Felice]

and got some off her chest.

[Laverne Cox]

Now we can talk about.

[Felice]

For references, you can jump in the comment section of the Breakfast Club's post with Kevin Hart so you know what we're talking about.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

But as we. As we start my podcast. Hey, ladies. If you have been struggling with dry hair breakage or just finding the right routine for your curls, I have got the trick for you. Bask and Lather offers nourishing hair bomb for curly or kinky hair, and that helps for reduce hair breakage and adds the shine that you have been looking for. It is made with real ingredients that can penetrate hair strands without clogging pores. And if you use it regularly, their users have seen results in about three months. That is pretty quick. They also have a hydrating hair mist that's perfect for keeping your hair soft, hydrated, and frizz free. And it's got aloe vera and avocado oil. So whether you're detangling, redefining curls or maintaining protective styles like locs, twists or braids, it fits right into your routine. Explore viral bestsellers and products of healthier hair of all types from Bask and Lather. Go to Bask and Lather Co.com and use the code IRL for 20% off. That's 20% off at Bask and Lather

[Felice]

Co.com Code IR hi, it's Colin Cowardly

[Colin Coward]

from the Colin Coward Podcast. Every goal starts with an assist. As Official partners of U.S. soccer, this team is ready to deliver Sensodyne dentist recommended defense of your sensitive teeth Centrum Fueling your day with science backed nutrients. Advil of course. Powerful inflammation fighting pain relief Voltaren Arthritis Gel helps penetrate deep, keeps the joints moving and tums ready to counterattack with fast heartburn relief. Learn how Halion can assist your game day [e-mail] Colin this is Jeff T

[Jeff T]

from the Club 520 podcast. Oh my goodness. Now this is a performance you do not want to miss. The Dell XPS Powered by Intel Core Ultra. It's got the sauce, we're talking speed, style, stamina, bam. And a long lasting battery life unheard of in this league. So whether you're using it for the next level, creativity, never ending productivity, or the entertainment that has you on the edge of your seat, this laptop is your mvp. Just look at the hustle. Is there anything you can't do? From the first second of the action all the way through to overtime, this thing is a powerhouse. The Dell xps Built for those with all the right moves. Built for you. 5 technology built to take your game up a [e-mail] XPS

[Cindy Crawford (Ad voice)]

have you ever wondered why some people seem to age slower? Like they figured out some secret the rest of us missed? Well, it turns out someone actually did. And it starts with a melon. Yep, a melon. There's a rare French melon that stays fresh four times longer than the fruit you and I buy at the store. Scientists discovered it produces an extraordinarily high level of a super antioxidant called sod. The kind that helps defend skin from the visible signs of aging. And get this meaningful beauty partnered with world renowned French cosmetic specialist Dr. Jean Louis Sabane to catch capture that melon's youth preserving power in a skincare line you can actually use every day. So if you're tired of trying products that all promise the same thing, this one is truly different because it Starts with something nature designed to stay young. Subscribe today and get the complete introductory system for just $49.95 at meaningfulbeauty.com you'll also get two free gifts, free shipping and a 60 day money back guarantee. Visit visit meaningful beauty.com and order today.

[Cindy Crawford]

Picture this. Me, Reese Witherspoon in London ordering fish and chips so often they might start wrapping me in paper. I'm traveling with my Wells Fargo autograph Journey card. So I earn rewards wherever I book. Travel five times points with hotels, four times with airlines, three times on restaurants and other travel and one point on other purchases. Imagine getting rewarded for eating a toad.

[Cindy Crawford (Ad voice)]

The in.

[Felice]

In the hole.

[Cindy Crawford]

Wait, what is a toad in a hole?

[Laverne Cox]

Visit Wells Fargo.com autograph journey terms apply.

[Felice]

So today's guest is a true trailblazer. An Emmy winning actress, producer, advocate, cultural icon who has transformed conversations around gender identity, representation and visibility in mainstream media. We know her from all the things Orange is the New Black and many of the shows that she has been part of. And she's helped read define what authentic storytelling could look like on television. Since then, she's become one of the most influential voices for LGBTQ rights, mental health, inclusive representation across entertainment and culture, and now also author of her new book, Transcendent.

[Laverne Cox]

My gosh.

[Felice]

Laverne Cox, you say you dreamed of a career that no one had ever had. Imagine that idea alone. That idea alone. You had this idea. You're this kid trying to figure out who you are.

[Laverne Cox]

Yeah.

[Felice]

You want to be an actress.

[Laverne Cox]

Yeah.

[Felice]

Nobody that looks like you, like you, has ever had the career that you have. Why on earth, where on earth did it even come from? How did you even dream that up?

[Laverne Cox]

It some. A little delusion. I, it's, it's weird. When I was, when I was writing the book and thinking about my childhood, it was so hard to write the book. Cause I really wanted to, like, get to the truth of what I was experiencing. And like, even if it sounded weird or childish or whatever, I needed to just say what it was. And from my earliest memories, it really was like in relationship to when the kids, you know, during daycare when I would get bullied with by the other kids and, you know, they beat me, beat me up. And my mother was like, why aren't you fighting back? And I remember distinctly thinking to myself, I'm above fighting with these kids. I'm.

[Felice]

You say you weren't even a fighter, right?

[Laverne Cox]

I'm not a fighter. I'm still, I'm a lover, not a fighter.

[Felice]

I Don't get that from you. But, okay.

[Laverne Cox]

I mean, I fight for my rights. I stand up for myself, but I'm not. I don't physically fight, but I felt I was above it. I felt like I was here for something bigger than that. I really did. And I don't know where that came from, but I've always felt that. And when my mother gave me, me and my brother this black history book when we were about five or six years old, I kind of confiscated the book. And they were like these, you know, for kids, they have these little pictures and these biographies of famous African Americans. W.E.B. du Bois, Martin Luther King, of course, Malcolm X. I remember Katherine Dunham, though. Marian Anderson, Arthur Mitchell and Leontine Price were like. I read them over and over again. And Leontine specifically, I'd never heard her sing. I didn't know anything about opera, but she had this turban and these high cheekbones, and she was just so dignified in the photo. And reading about these artists, specifically Arthur Mitchell, the first black ballet dancer to dance at New York City Ballet, Catherine Dunham, started her own ballet company. Marian Anderson, My God. Broke the color barrier at the Metropolitan Opera. But then when she, you know, the Daughters of American Revolution didn't allow her to sing at Constitution Hall, Eleanor Roosevelt was like, why don't you sing at the Lincoln Memorial? And so instead of singing for a few thousand people, there were millions of people who heard her voice. And that changed things. And the things that these artists had to endure. At six years old, I was like, wouldn't it be cool? Cause I already knew I was in. I was, you know, wanted to dance. And I knew. I knew I'd be a dancer and transition to acting. I knew this always, but I wanted to dance. And so at 5 years old, I was begging my mother for dance classes. Finally, in third grade, I started to take dance. So I was like, how cool would it be if through my work as an artist, I could make things better for people who follow me? This, like, idea enters my head at six years old.

[Felice]

Six.

[Laverne Cox]

Wow. And so I had stuff to do, so I didn't have time to, like, couldn't be bothered with these kids in their petty whatever.

[Felice]

What I love about the way you framed out the book, also, when you write a book, it's like, isn't it such a therapeutic kind of. I don't know. Was it for you, this experience?

[Laverne Cox]

No, because the book, it is. I think it is now as I talk about it, the process, I thought that memories. I had forgotten a lot of my Childhood. And I thought. And I thought I'd use more of the way I disassociated. When, like, I would be getting beat, when I be beaten up or when my mother would yell, I would disassociate and I would just go someplace else. I imagine I was Darcelle, the lead Solid Gold dancer, or Madonna. I loved Madonna as a kid. Then Culture Club and Boy George came. So I would just. I would literally disassociate. And, like, that's not unusual for a child. Can't process all that. So I would, like, go someplace else. So I thought I would be using that throughout the book. Whenever I didn't remember something, I would. I would just go into whatever the fantasy was. But as I started working with my co writer Felice, and she started asking me questions, memories started coming back.

[Cindy Crawford]

And

[Laverne Cox]

they were buried for a reason. Like, really traumatizing things, like ugly crying and just like. Like core, core stuff. Feeling dirty, disgusting, unlovable, unwanted. Like, just the. I never felt wanted. I never felt wanted. And I felt like, this incredible burden. I thought children ruined people's lives. My mother had two kids that she was raising by herself. And she was always reminding us how hard she had to work and how she had no help. She worked four jobs. I didn't actually even realize until we were in high school. She was still working four jobs, which is insane. But she was always stressed out. And my therapist thinks that she was a narcissist. And that would explain a lot too. So she could just go off at the drop of a hat. So I was like, wow, walking on eggshells, like, all the time. And so when we think about the survival things, fight, flight, or freeze, there's also tend and befriend. Some people call it fawning. That's also a survival response. Tend and befriend is like, you know, with the bear is in the woods, you're like, oh, bear, it's okay. What can I do to make you feel better? Everything's gonna be all right. And that was me and my mother. My brother was like, flight. He was like, get me the fuck out of here. I was like, I'm gonna make you love me. I'm gonna make everything. And that was a lot of my childhood because I loved my mother. I love my mother so much. And I thought if I made all A's and I was really, really, really good, she would love me and she would want me and. But I didn't feel an unconditional love and a love because I just was Right.

[Felice]

Let alone all the things internally that you were discovering about yourself that was different than your brother and different than your friends and pretty much everybody else in your school.

[Laverne Cox]

Everybody else.

[Felice]

I love the way you framed the book in three parts. So first part is what's wrong with me. Second part is what happened to me. And then third part is what's right with me. So good, by the way. Just that alone is so good. I think all of us in our own lives take that framework and kind of assess.

[Laverne Cox]

Told my therapist this. Well, this is. I guess this is something she said to me in therapy that is the part of the journey from. To healing from trauma is that we are in this thing of, like, what's wrong with me? Like, what's. What's I'm. And then, even then, I had teachers saying, what's wrong with you? My mother saying, what's wrong with you? Other kids saying, what's wrong with you? So, like, I felt like something was wrong with me and like, I wasn't right. And then it's then, like, I get to a place of, like, well, what happened to me? Like, there's nothing wrong with me. I'm. I'm made in God's image or something. But what happened to me? And that is so complicated. There was a lot of things happened. I was, you know, my mother, bless her heart, was like, because of her own childhood trauma and stress, she got pregnant and didn't plan on having two kids. And then the sperm donor. I call him sperm donor. My father, like, never claimed deaths. Never. And we were told to lie about that. My mother told us when we were. If kids ask, or if the teacher asks, say your father died before you were born and you never knew him. And so I did that until I wrote this book.

[Felice]

The whole time?

[Laverne Cox]

Yeah.

[Felice]

Wow.

[Laverne Cox]

Out of respect for her, but, like, thinking about. Think about being like 5 years old and like, that's the lie you're told. And then you just keep telling that lie. And then, obviously, I won't give this part away. But then we meet him for the first time when we were in third grade, and the only time

[Felice]

all these years he hasn't popped up,

[Laverne Cox]

I heard about him. Deputy, you know, you're going to end up like, wt in jail and whatever. Like, my mother, you know, I heard about him and what a piece of shit he was, but I had never met him, you know, according to my mother, he was a piece of shit. And based on his actions, based on yours, what would assume. Yeah. Based on my experience.

[Felice]

Yeah.

[Laverne Cox]

So just Like, a lot of shame, a lot of trauma, you know, other stuff that abuse, physical abuse, sex abuse, all like, it's just, and it's, and it's, and I still, like, I guess, you know, I've never, I've never talked about this. I've alluded to this sexual abuse, but, like, I've never really talked about that publicly either. So to write about it, all these things, it's like, and a lot of it too is like, people assume if you're trans, like, someone must have touched you or something like that. But, like, I think hopefully people are smart. Well, people aren't. People aren't. But now we know, like, if you study this, any of this stuff that predators prey on kids who are like, already outcast, kids who are already don't have support and are easier to sort of, because they're already alone and isolated. And I think, and I remember, I remember thinking for years that the sex abuse happened. I was, that I was 5 years old when the sex abuse happened. But when I finally told my mother, I write about this in the book and we calculated, I had to be, I had to be two years old. And I think, and for a lot of years I was, I blamed myself. I was like, what I, what did I do to make, you know. And I was like, I was 2. There was like. And when I, even at 5, it wasn't my fault, but it definitely wasn't my fault at 2. So carrying those thoughts around that it, that you I did something and that it was my fault.

[Felice]

Even as an adult, and you're such like a, you've worked on yourself, you've done therapy, you've, yeah, you're, I, I, I just can't imagine that you could think as adult you, that, that child.

[Laverne Cox]

Well, I think adult me had, it took a minute to formulate adult me. Even when I was like, when I turned 18 and turned 21, I was still in denial about people asking me about my childhood. It was fabulous. Everything was fabulous. Everything was wonderful. By that time, I had created this Persona because I thought that's what I needed to do to be accepted and to be. So everything was fabulous and fine and wonderful, and it wasn't. And I got to a point when I could, I couldn't be in that line anymore. And it really, honestly, I had to deal with the gender stuff first. And when, when I started, when I started the me, my medical transition in 1998, and just the anxiety I had around it, I was just a sense of relief. And it was the beginning of me, like, being able to tell the truth to myself. And so, like, that truth, like, was like, okay, so this. Yeah, my childhood wasn't great. And I. I was terrified. And I did feel unloved and unwanted and unprotected and not safe and unprotected. For sure. Not all the things and. And overcompensated by making all A's and winning talent shows. This very drama. The gifted child. If people know that book like I was. I felt like I would be loved for what I did and what I could do, but not for who I am inherently. That I had to do something to be loved. Not that I was lovable, because I just am. And that realizing that and then that's one thing. And then, like, finding a sense of actual worthiness because I'm a child of God. And worthiness of love, that was years. That was years. And that can only really be healed in relationship to other people, potentially a therapist, because it's part of its attachment theory. And then, like, I did group therapy. And so some of the people in the group therapy helped a lot. And eventually some friends and a few romantic relationships helped. But more friends and group therapy. Yeah.

[Felice]

Wow.

[Laverne Cox]

Because it has to, like. Because there's a difference between understanding something intellectually and then to quote Morpheus from the first Matrix movie, there's a difference between knowing the path and walking it. And there was. There was a point. I remember years ago, I was. I was at the doctor's. I was the doctor's office for something, and I was getting a little counseling. It was getting a little counseling. And as you can tell, I'm. I can talk my ass off. And I'm kind of smart, you know. You know, according to some people. But the doctor said, I can't wait for your core to catch up with your head. Oh, that. I can't wait for it. And that's what the therapy I've been doing for the past 10 years, the somatic therapy. Because really, when you're. It has to land in the body. Talk therapy is great, but it has somatic means in the body. It has to land in the nervous system, because trauma lives in the body.

[Felice]

You could say, you know, have. I've experienced this and I. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you can articulate all the things that you're supposed to articulate.

[Laverne Cox]

But actual healing, my body has to know it. And I need. Because the hard wiring, neurobiologically, the hard wiring is to pick the abusive man because he reminds me of the.

[Felice]

Were you still doing that?

[Laverne Cox]

For years. Until. When did I stop with the abusive? It was maybe 20, 2011, 2012, when I turned a corner for them.

[Felice]

You were repeating this learned behavior as a child. Let me.

[Laverne Cox]

Yeah. And Jennifer, my therapist, one of the things she said in therapy to me that, like, just blew. Blew my wig back. She said, trauma survivors turn alarm bells into dinner bells and dinner bells into alarm bells, meaning, like, the hardwiring we have, it's like. Like the threat we should run away from. But when you've survived trauma and you're trying to maybe make sense of your life, I think, like, the alcoholic ex I had in the early 2000s was. So he was emotionally abusive. He was my mother. I was, like, trying to make my mother love me by choosing someone like her. And I was like, I'm gonna be amazing with him, and he's gonna love me, and that's gonna cure all, like, subconsciously. I didn't consciously think this, which is insane to say out loud.

[Felice]

It's insane, but it's really kind of common. I think everybody. It's childhood trauma. It's different versions of childhood.

[Laverne Cox]

TR Realized, well, my mother's still alive. Maybe I can work on this with her. But that. Yeah, I did. I did. And she had. She has her limitations. I have to be real about it. She has her limitations. And like, I. The. I think this is funny, but years. Years after I came out to her as trans, she said, you know, like, maybe, like, seven years afterwards, she said, you know, I went to therapy for two years to deal with your, you know, your transcends. And I was like. I was like, wow. And in my mind, I'm thinking, girl, that's the least of your problems. My transness. And that's not to be shady. I just. But it's like, my grandfather grew up on a plantation, and he was beaten.

[Felice]

And your grandmother was in an abusive relationship with him.

[Laverne Cox]

With my grandfather, JP. But also she got married at 12 years old to flee a stepfather who was abusing her. I mean, that's. I mean, women getting. Getting married at, like, 12, 13 in the south and, like, the early 1900s was, like, standard. So she's flee. She's fleeing like an abusive man, and then gets into a relationship, marries a man who's way older than her. That's abusive. She's single, she has a couple kids. She gets her stuff together, and then JP comes along, and. And so this is what my mother is born into. And that. That abuse that he learned on the plantation, he passed on to my grandmother and to his children, my mother. And that's what she passed on. And so like you give her grace for that. Absolutely. When I learned all this, I was just. And then even things that I, I will never talk about that she endured in her life. It's amazing. It's my mother's amazing. She put her, with all that. She put herself through undergrad, graduate school. She bought her pay for a house full out, raised two kids. You know, from nothing. Like from nothing. And still a lot of unprocessed trauma which is, which makes me really sad. But I think that like it's just so much, so many women.

[Colin Coward]

Hi, it's Colin Coward from the Colin Coward podcast. All right. You know what deserves more attention? The assists. Everybody talks about the goal. A big moment that gets replayed on the highlight reels. But too often we overlook all the contributions and collabs that happen along the way. That's true in soccer and honestly true in life. Halion is shining a light on the assists. An official partner of U.S. soccer, they got a whole lineup of brands ready to deliver for you. So here they are. Sensodyne Dentist recommended. Defense of your sensitive teeth. Centrum. Fueling your day with science backed nutrients. Advil, of course. Powerful inflammation fighting pain relief. Voltaren Arthritis gel. Helps penetrate deep, keeps the joints moving and tummy ready to counterattack with fast heartburn relief. These are brands that are ready to deliver your essential wellness assists. Because every goal starts with an assist. Learn how Halion can assist your game day [e-mail] Colin this is Jeff T

[Jeff T]

from the Club 520 podcast. Oh my goodness. Now this is a performance you do not want to miss. The Dell xps. Powered by Intel Core Ultra. It's got the sauce, we're talking speed, style, stamina, bam. And a long lasting battery life unheard of in this list. So whether you're using it for the next level, creativity, never ending productivity, or the entertainment that has you on the edge of your seat, this laptop is your mvp. Just look at the hustle. Is there anything you can't do? From the first second of the action all the way through the overtime, this thing is a powerhouse. The Dell xps. Built for those with all the right moves. Built for you. 5 technology built to take your game up a [e-mail] XPS.

[Cindy Crawford]

Hi, I'm Cindy Crawford and I'm the founder of meaningful beauty. When Dr. Sabah and I decided to do a skincare line together, he said to me, we are going to give women meaningful beauty. And I said, that's exactly right. We want to give women meaningful beauty, which means each and every product is meaningful. It has a reason to exist. It's efficacious. You're going to get results, and then you just go out and live your life. Life meaningful beauty. Confidence is beautiful. Learn [e-mail] Picture this. Me, Reese Witherspoon, in London, ordering fish and chips so often they might start wrapping me in paper. I'm traveling with my Wells Fargo autograph Journey card. So I earn rewards wherever I book.

[Felice]

Travel.

[Cindy Crawford]

Five times points with hotels, four times with airlines, three times on restaurant, restaurants and other travel, and one point on other purchases. Imagine getting rewarded for eating a toad in the hole. Wait, what is a toad in a hole?

[Laverne Cox]

Visit Wells Fargo.com autographjourney Terms apply, people, period. But so many black women. My mom is in her 70s. They dealt with so much, especially in the south and the depths of, like, misogyny and racism colliding is like. Like, it's kind of amazing that she's even still standing. It's remarkable.

[Felice]

And she was singled four jobs, raising two kids, probably had no experience. I mean, I don't even think for them in their generation, even the word transgender was a. Like, was she even. She couldn't wrap her brain around raising a transgender child or what that would require or what type of. I mean, you see, now there are. There's so many resources.

[Laverne Cox]

I mean, this is so many ways we're talking. I mean, when I. When I was 8 years old, and Ms. Ridgeway is like, your son is going to end up in New Orleans wearing a dress if we don't get him to therapy right away. That was 1980.

[Felice]

That's what they said.

[Laverne Cox]

I was 8 years old. That was 1980.

[Felice]

And what did that do to you when you hear that?

[Laverne Cox]

I mean, I told it, like, as a joke for a while, a lot of years. And then when I dug deep, that was some of the stuff I started remembering. Oh, God. That's some of the stuff I started remembering when I was writing the book. And that was, like, the turning point for me in my childhood, where before that, I was just kind of free. I danced around all the time, and I was just myself. And after that, it was like me fanning myself, like Scarlett o' Hara from Gone with the Wind in class started this whole family emergency and stressed my mother out, and I have to go to a therapist, and my mother can't even. How she can afford a therapist, and people are talking about her, and I was like, my mother didn't have time for a problem. She was trying to support two kids and make ends meet. She couldn't pay rent. Sometimes she didn't have time for. I didn't have time, so I didn't want to be a problem. And all of a sudden, because I wanted to fan myself like Scarlett o', Hara, I was a problem, and I had to be fixed. And so that.

[Felice]

Hmm.

[Laverne Cox]

So then I was like, okay, I'm gonna try, you know. That's when I started censoring myself and started trying to, like, rein in my mannerisms and. And reign, like. And just start looking at myself from the outside so I wouldn't present a certain way, probably. I did a terrible job of it.

[Felice]

I can't imagine.

[Laverne Cox]

I did a terrible job of it. But, like, the shame. It was the shame that I am unworthy of connection and belonging because I am this way. That's very natural for me. So that was. It was. It was awful. And talking to my brother about it, I mean, just the intellectual part of me, I think I go between, like, emotion and intellect. That's why I talk too much and sometimes ramble. But my brother, like, years later, we talked about, like, how that affected him. And for him, he was like, oh, I really need to, like, butch up as much as possible. And. Cause I was, like, getting it from all sides. And it. What that taught him is that, like, he really needed to, like, stay within the lines of, like, gender and whatever. But then he also.

[Felice]

Isn't that interesting, though, how your experience. This is your experience. I mean, this book is really your experience.

[Laverne Cox]

Yes, but you dread them.

[Felice]

But even from that. Their viewpoint.

[Laverne Cox]

But within the resentment that he developed towards mother because of how she treated me, I think he doesn't talk to my mother still, and it's for his own reasons. But I think it feels like it's also partly how she treated me. And he's forgiven her, but he just feels like he doesn't need her in his life. And I just could never imagine not having my mother in my life. You meet your parents where they are.

[Felice]

Have you never thought about interjecting and trying to.

[Laverne Cox]

I was caught in the middle for a really long time, and I feel like that was a lot of the dynamic in our family. And at a certain point, I was just. I had to draw a boundary, and I had to be like, please don't ask me about him. You know, do you feel any guilt about that? No. I know I've learned not to feel guilt about taking care of myself. And this is what. This is what therapy's taught me that, like this. Is that drawing boundaries?

[Felice]

Please tell me that again.

[Laverne Cox]

I've learned to not feel guilt for taking care of myself. I don't have kids.

[Felice]

That's just for whoever needs that.

[Laverne Cox]

Boundaries of. Like Brene Brown says, the most compassionate people are the most boundaried. And I feel that in my spirit because I. I do feel like there's so much. I have so much love and grace for people. And I think that's because I. My. I have boundaries, girl.

[Felice]

Good for you. I'm working on it. I'm working on mine. It's really hard.

[Colin Coward]

What.

[Laverne Cox]

What. So can. May I ask you, what do you feel like you're struggling with in terms of boundaries?

[Felice]

I'm just learning them now because I make excuses for people a lot because I have a compassionate person. I also realize everybody is just about

[Laverne Cox]

friends, excuses for family, everybody.

[Felice]

And so I allow things to happen around people, around me, and I make excuses for people because, oh, they have this or, oh, they. They just. Because they experience this. That's why they're like that. But then in the meantime, you let that happen to you. If you have people in your life and you allow certain behaviors, you're kind of allowing that to happen to you, even though you're. It's. You're framing it around giving people grace, which I like to give people grace.

[Laverne Cox]

Me too.

[Felice]

But that only works if you are conscious about the boundaries of how it affects you.

[Laverne Cox]

But another Renee Brown moment that's so iconic. She was doing a workshop with this Episcopal chur, some of who. She's a qualitative researcher. So she, like, bases her research on people's lived experiences. And she asked the question in the group, like deacons and Episcopal ministers, do you believe people are doing the best that they can? And. Or do you believe people are doing the best, doing everything they can to piss you off? And, you know, people are like, I like to believe people are doing the best they can. And then. And then it was like, is there a person in your life who you think is just doing everything they can to piss you off? Write the person's name down. And then they write the. Everybody writes the person's name. Now, can you imagine that this person's doing the very best that they can? And then a few people started crying. Renee's like, why are you crying? And there was this husband and wife who wrote down the same person. And it was, I think, their daughter or niece or someone who. They had a daughter. She was a drug addict. And they were Constantly giving her money, sending her to rehab to try to get her better. And it wasn't working. And they were just frustrated and angry and, like, just resentful. And Renee's like, if she's doing the best that she can, what then do you need to do? Then we can't give her any money anymore. If this is the best she can do, she's gonna spend that money on drugs. I can't give her any money anymore. I can't keep investing my energy and time into her because she's gonna continue to disappoint me and put us in painful situations. So if she's doing the best that she can, and we assume that people are doing the best she can, then that means I can't be in your life. That if this is the best that you can do, I understand, but this is not good for me. This is going to trigger old patterns. This is going to have me twirling out.

[Felice]

You have to take care of yourself.

[Laverne Cox]

That's really. And so that. That's a place of compassion for them, but also for yourself. And it's not. It's not a mean thing. It's just a. Like, I can't pour from an empty cup if I'm. If. If I can be. If I'm going to be of service in the world, I have to fill up my cup, and the overflow is for everyone else. And I can't fill up my cup if I have people in my life that are draining me and sucking me dry and have me in resentment and anger. Um, so. So then. So with great boundaries, I can be more compassionate.

[Felice]

I'm gonna take that with me today. Thank you. By the way, the what's wrong with me Part of the book. I think all of us should take this time in our life to. And write a. Even if you don't write a full book, write a few chapters on, like, that part of your life.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

Because, like, how you talk about how

[Felice]

the what's wrong with me, period, informed some of the men you date, informed how you're managing your mom and your relationship with your brother now.

[Laverne Cox]

Kind of everything.

[Felice]

It kind of informs everything. First of all, there's so many. I mean, you talk about suicide, attempt, abuse, bullying, even the moment. I mean, there's a page in here I had marked it about you going through puberty. And I can only imagine. We were talking about this before in the back, you know, when you're 13 years old and you're straight. I don't. I'm not thinking about my sexuality As

[Laverne Cox]

a kid, I wasn't thinking about sexuality either. I was called.

[Felice]

That's what I mean, an F word.

[Laverne Cox]

A. From my first interactions with kids.

[Felice]

That's what I mean that you were forced to look at sexuality.

[Laverne Cox]

But for me, I don't, I don't think it was actually about sex. When I was three years old, When I was five years old, I think it was about, about me being feminine. Right? And like, because people conflate gender and, and sexual gender identity and sexuality. Because I was a very feminine kid, that's why they called me the in the F word.

[Felice]

And didn't that force you to think about it sooner than maybe you would have because of other people's kind of.

[Laverne Cox]

I. So initially it was just, it was like, these kids, I don't have time for these kids. But I also like, like the irony of my life is that when I was a kid, the other kids called me a girl. And when I transitioned, people call me a man. And. But that's, that's the truth. And then like even there were so many trans women when I posted that they were like, that was my experience too. So it's really, it was about my gender expression that I was a very feminine child. And because I was assigned male at birth, they said sissy, they said F word, they said queer. And so like for me, I didn't even know what these were. The first time I heard these words. I didn't know what they were. How does a 3 year old and 5 year old know what I knew

[Felice]

it wasn't good, they weren't saying it with love.

[Laverne Cox]

It was not a good thing. And then I just was like, screw them. But I also knew that I was a girl too. But I also knew that people were telling me I was a boy. So I'm aware now that as an adult like that, that that awareness made me question everything from a really early age. And like, and that's a good thing. Is it a good thing questioning like what people are telling you? Like when you know something about yourself and you know something to be true and then people are telling you the opposite. It's like, I just feel like maybe

[Felice]

it forces you to grow up faster than you should be forced to.

[Laverne Cox]

You know, I certainly didn't feel like a child when I was a child. And a lot of my. I still need to give myself to play time and still need to give myself, like, give my inner child, like, yeah, space. Yeah, I definitely did not. I was not a child when I was a child. Yeah, for sure.

[Felice]

That makes Me sad for you like that or for. Or for children in that situation.

[Laverne Cox]

It is what it is. I mean, it is. I mean, that's my life and. But it's never too late to have a happy childhood. You know, that's like one of the things I learned in therapy. But it's true. Like, like years ago a therapist was like, you know, your mother in law, you have dolls. Buy yourself a bar and play with her and dress her. And I was just like, I can do that. Yeah. And I was like. And I did. And I have. And it's awesome. And now I have a Laverne Cox Barbie from Mattel. Yeah. Which is pretty awesome. I love that. The first trans person to have a Mattel Barbie doll. So it's. So you can.

[Felice]

Well, that's.

[Laverne Cox]

And that's. For me, I think one of the biggest lessons maybe from the book that I want to. There's so many things I want to say to people, but like, as a child, I was defenseless. I was not responsible. I couldn't consent. But once I'm an adult, I'm responsible for my life. I'm responsible for how I respond to my childhood, for the situations that I put myself in. I am responsible. So I.

[Felice]

To heal.

[Laverne Cox]

To heal. Yes. This happened to me because my mother did this and this person abused me and this. All the. And we were pulled. All these things happened. But I'm an adult now and I'm responsible for my life and I have to take accountability for my life and responsibility for it. There are systemic things that are. That's real. But that's what's my 50%, what can I control? And so like, yeah, all these things happen, but I don't have to be defined by them. And another part of healing from trauma is like a lot of trauma survivors are overly. Either they deny the trauma happened, which is what I did for a really long time, or once they acknowledge it, they're overly defined by it. But building trauma resilience is like, this happened and it's in the proper time place in your timeline. Because like, usually because the nervous system doesn't know if a trauma happened 20 years ago. So once triggered, the nervous system experiences if it's happening right now, which is great for acting, terrible for real life. So terrible. Really terrible for your life.

[Felice]

That's why you're a great actress.

[Laverne Cox]

But you get it in the right timeline in your life so that this happened. But I'm not defined by this thing that happened to me. I'm not defined by that. I'm defined by the choices I make and by my resilience and how I rewrite the story.

[Felice]

Good for you.

[Laverne Cox]

Yeah.

[Felice]

Second part. What happened to me? Yeah, is the second part where there's reflection now you're like, hey, wait a minute. Some of this shit wasn't right. And then you're course correcting or you're, you're trying to, you're at least trying to course correct or, or grab hold of your own life. The beginnings of that. You come to New York. It's kind of like that moment, right? Coming to New York in the 90s.

[Laverne Cox]

Oh my God.

[Felice]

As like what, 20, 20.

[Laverne Cox]

I was 21 years old. 1993.

[Felice]

1993, by the way, New York at that time. The gay clubs in New York at that time.

[Laverne Cox]

Are you a native New Yorker?

[Felice]

I'm a native New Yorker. I was in the streets in the 90s.

[Laverne Cox]

So do you disclose your age? Are you the same?

[Felice]

55.

[Laverne Cox]

I'm 54 tomorrow.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

Okay, so I.

[Felice]

What I'm telling you is I was in New York. Now I'm straight. But I know I was in the gay clubs too in the 90s. Because the gay clubs in the 90s was where all the good parties were.

[Laverne Cox]

I feel like the parties were all integrated when I, when I.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

That's what I mean.

[Felice]

It was a time, a time was

[Laverne Cox]

being had Limelight when I arrived in 1993, Limelight Disco 2000. On Wednesdays, it was all the bridge and tunnel, like straight folks and then like the club kids and drag queens. Everybody parties together in the 90s. Like I'm Cafe con leche. Cafe con leche girl. That's a whole nother book. Cafe con leche girl. But everybody literally. Jo. Joey Rowland, who is one of the party promoters, did a song called the Gays, the Straights, Bisexuals, Transsexuals. We're here. We're all here. Cafe con leche with. It moved several different locations, but everybody partied together.

[Felice]

Yeah, no, I know. I was in those parties. I remember. That's why it was the time in New York. The club scene in New York was amazing at that.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

So you've been.

[Laverne Cox]

What a wonderful time to be in New York. Right?

[Felice]

What a wonderful time to be in New York. But also, especially if you're. You hadn't, you hadn't transitioned yet at that time.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

So you're a young man at that time.

[Laverne Cox]

Well, I was gender non. I would say I was gender non conforming. When I moved to New York, I started wearing when I went to boarding school. When I was the Alabama School of Fine Arts. I started like wearing women's and girls clothes. My I color, my salvation Armani. Like not a dress because I was terrified of ending up in New Orleans wearing a dress. But like I started wearing culottes and bell bottoms and I started wearing makeup and shaving my brows and wearing lashes every day. So like that evolved. And so by the time I would move to New York, I had a lash on every day. I had a shaved head, I would draw in my brows, I had a beat face, you know, every day. And I had my very androgynous. We call it gender nonconforming now. But when I arrived in New York, I was gender, I was gender nonconforming and had my look and that's. And I was rocking it. And it was, I was harassed in the street during this but at nighttime I would go to Limelight and they let me ride in. I go to Webster hall, they let me ride in Flamingo east, all the, all the spots. So it was like when the night fell, I was, I was a celebrity, I was a star. I was like the reason the party that the club kids like, if they weren't club kids at your party, it wasn't a party.

[Felice]

Right, of course.

[Laverne Cox]

So it was a wonderful thing to be celebrated. Yes, girl, it was wonderful thing to be celebrated for something I was bullied for and still, you know, harassed for on the street during the day, but at night it was magical and I

[Felice]

would imagine a lot of that.

[Colin Coward]

Hi, it's Colin Coward from the Colin Coward podcast. Every goal starts with an assist. As Official partners of U.S. soccer, this team is ready to deliver Sensodyne dentist recommended defense of your sensitive teeth Centrum. Fueling your day with science backed nutrients. Advil of course. Powerful inflammation fighting pain relief. Voltaren arthritis gel Helps penetrate deep, keeps the joints moving and tums ready to counterattack with fast heartburn relief. Learn how halion can assist your game day [e-mail] Colin this is Jeff T

[Jeff T]

from the Club 520 podcast. Oh my goodness. Now this is a performance you do not want to miss. The Dell xps powered by Intel Core Ultra. It's got the sauce, we're talking speed, style, stamina, bam. And a long lasting battery life unheard of in this league. So whether you're using it for the next level, creativity, never ending productivity, or the entertainment that has for you on the edge of your seat, this laptop is your mvp. Just look at the hustle. Is there anything you can't do from the first second of the action, all the way through the overtime. This thing is a powerhouse. The Dell xps. Built for those with all the right moves. Built for you. 5 technology built to take your game up a [e-mail] XPS

[Cindy Crawford (Ad voice)]

have you ever wondered why some people seem to age slower? Like they figured out some secret the rest of us missed? Well, it turns out someone actually did. And it starts with a melon. Yep, a melon. There's a rare French melon that stays fresh four times longer than the fruit you and I buy at the store. Scientists discovered it produces an extraordinarily high level of a super antioxidant called sod. The kind that helps defend skin skin from the visible signs of aging. And get this. Meaningful Beauty partnered with world renowned French cosmetic specialist Dr. Jean Louis Sabah to capture that melon's youth preserving power in a skincare line you can actually use every day. So if you're tired of trying products that all promise the same thing, this one is truly different because it starts with something nature designed to stay young. Subscribe today and get the complete introductory system for just 40.49.95@meaningful beauty.com you'll also get two free gifts, free shipping and a 60 day money back guarantee. Visit meaningfulbeauty.com and order today.

[Cindy Crawford]

Picture this. Me, Reese Witherspoon in London ordering fish and chips so often they might start wrapping me in paper. I'm traveling with my Wells Fargo autograph journey card. So I earn rewards wherever I book. Travel five times times points with hotels, four times with airlines, three times on restaurants and other travel and one point on other purchases. Imagine getting rewarded for eating a toad in the hole. Wait, what is a toad in a hole?

[Laverne Cox]

Visit wells fargo.com autographjourney Terms apply.

[Felice]

Formed your career, right. Because you're finding you're starting to express yourself and RuPaul.

[Laverne Cox]

It just like become an international like phenomenon. When I moved to New York and club kids were on the Joan Rivers and like I before I moved to New York I remember seeing Richie Rich and Tobel who I became friends with and Amanda Lepore on Joan Rivers show and Paris is burning. It come out. So there was, it was a, it was a time to be in New York and to be in that scene.

[Felice]

It was a time to birth you.

[Laverne Cox]

Yeah.

[Felice]

And kind of give you wings to become.

[Laverne Cox]

Yeah. I, I came here feeling like look like I'm like oh my people are there. I always knew New York. Even before I knew anything about club kids. I knew, knew it was New York the second, I discovered Fame, that TV show.

[Felice]

Yeah.

[Laverne Cox]

And movie from the 80s. I was like, new York, that's where I'm the ending to be like, I never. Yeah. Eight years old. I would have been eight, nine years old when Fame came up.

[Felice]

Did you have an understanding at that

[Laverne Cox]

time

[Felice]

that there was room for somebody? Because while you said there was RuPaul and there was some representatives.

[Laverne Cox]

RuPaul was. Later, was in the 90s. But. Are you talking about Laters?

[Felice]

But I'm just saying representation was scarce, for sure. You know what I'm saying? Especially trans representation. I didn't, I. We didn't see that on a mainstream scale. Were you already starting to understand the idea that you could be that. That you could actually change things?

[Laverne Cox]

Honestly, I think, I think about when I. When I thought when Boy George Culture Club became. They were huge in the early 80s, and I was like, okay. And then there was like all this crazy androgyny even on Soul Train. If you look at old clips of Soul train from the 80s, that's true.

[Felice]

You're right.

[Laverne Cox]

The stuff that got. Could you. I was just thinking about all the, like, homophobic rappers looking at the old Soul Train acts, to Chermaine Stewart being on Soul Train. We don't have to take our clothes off. Remember Dwayne Stewart, big old queen with that, you know, the pressed out, hair laid but like girl, like gay. Like just some gay stuff was happening on Soul Train. And it just, it was the 80s, though, and it was just kind of like. I mean, people, like Prince was around and like people thought Liberace was straight, you know, so it was just a different in time, which is so fabulous. So I just, I believed, I didn't think about. The interesting thing is I didn't think about, like, I was aware, obviously I was aware I was black, but I didn't think about these things as hindrances. I just, I felt like there was something inside me and I was a star and I was talented and I should be a star. People, like always remembered me. I had a presence, you know, obviously that needed to be cultivated into, you know, training with training, but I just always believed that I should be a star. And then I think as I. When I transitioned and I like really started existing in trans community and hearing experiences from other trans people, I became. And then like, yes, I've been harassed in the street my whole life yet, and bullied and stuff. But, like, I was just programmed to succeed. I was programmed to believe that I was supposed to be successful. Um.

[Felice]

Hmm. Wow.

[Laverne Cox]

Yeah. And and the world certainly. And then it was a period in the 90s even. You know, I just remember I would when I worked at coffee shop. You remember coffee shop?

[Felice]

Of course.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

It's still there, by the way.

[Laverne Cox]

No, no, no. They, they, they just closed. No, it closed in 2018. Really, it was.

[Felice]

The coffee shop is still there on 14th Street.

[Laverne Cox]

I'm 16 in Union Square west because I worked there for 10 years. Um, they closed in 2018. I remember I was really sad.

[Felice]

Is there a new one in a place?

[Laverne Cox]

It's a Chase Bank. It's a Chase bank now. It's really sad. It's really.

[Felice]

Oh, I'm thinking the cafeteria.

[Laverne Cox]

Oh, cafeteria.

[Felice]

Coffee shop did close down. Correct.

[Laverne Cox]

And so I do remember coffee shop.

[Felice]

Wow.

[Laverne Cox]

So wait, was it. So yeah, when I worked at coffee shop, people would come in and I would like get like, oh, come in, model for this or come and do. I would get like opportunities working there. I remember like even I was doing Runway coaching for someone in the 90s. Like these twins. They were these party promoters who were twins from Africa. I forget their names. They had me like teaching girls how to model for some fashion shows.

[Felice]

Like already that girl.

[Laverne Cox]

I was like just. I was in New York and I was. There were. There were just kind of opportunities for people who were different, who were drag queens or gender non conforming or club kids. There was just. There were places to work, like coffee shop. You could at least. You could work. At least you can go and have get a legit job if you were lucky. And I was one of the lucky ones who was able to like, you know, go to coffee shop and wait tables for 10 years. And then lucky Chang that I was

[Felice]

have loved to seen you in coffee shop. I'd have loved to go.

[Laverne Cox]

I used to do Runway down the aisles. And it was a time and the. I didn't even write about celebrities. You used to come in the coffee shop. I'm waiting on Wanda Sykes. Tyrese Q Tip was a regular.

[Felice]

I was there with Q Tip one time.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

Queen Latif story for another day.

[Laverne Cox]

Queen Latifah. Queen Latifah used to come in to get. She always ordered food to go. She had. I guess we had a recording studio. Cause I worked the graveyard. Shit. She had a recording studio, I think in Square. She'd always come in, she'd have a fly pasta, fly women. And she was always super sweet and she would order her food to go like it was the Grace Jones stories. A lot of things that did not make it to the book.

[Felice]

But There's a lot of things in the book which, if we had more time today, we would go down many rabbit holes. And the third, just real quick, before we wrap. Of course, the third part of the book is what's right with me, which is the most inspiring because it's like, yes, you go through those things and yes, I have to deal with all the shit I went through through, but like, man, I did some. So many things right. I. I did things right. You represented it in a way that nobody else had.

[Laverne Cox]

Thank you.

[Felice]

You just got a lot of things right. What is the number one thing that you think you got right?

[Laverne Cox]

Well, I. I don't want to say got right. What was it? What was. What I always had was a sense of when I didn't believe in myself. I was deeply passionate about art and performing. And for years people were like, how do I get more confident like you? I was like, I've never been confident, but I have had fake it well, but it's not even faking it. It's the passion and the love. When I'm passionate, you see them, you're sitting here talking to me. When I'm excited about something, when I'm passionate about something, it takes over. And so the love and the passion for performance, for learning, for getting better at what I do, that just, that overcame all the other stuff because I was just so. I wanted to learn, I wanted to perform, and I, I wanted more. And I thought, why not? I just remember years, like, for years when I, you know, watching reality shows and like, watching the real world and watching them, like, what would it be like if a trans person were on this show? Why. Why isn't a trans person on this show? And then I was on one of their shows, so it was like, it was having a vision. It was looking around and being like, I can do this and I should be doing this. And there's. And it was. And seeing it for myself first. Colman Domingo kind of recently said he was talking about teaching an acting class and like, you know, a plus size girl had come in and done a monologue from Fat Pig, this Neil Lebrut play. And, and Coleman's like, why did you choose that? She was like, well, I'm, you know, I'm heavy. And I thought that would be a good monologue for me, you know, to go out in the world. And he was like, when I saw you, I saw Clea, Juliet, I saw an angenue. And he was like, encouraging her to, like, see herself differently. And he had to see for himself as an actor, that he could be a leading man, that there were other things that he could do. And so that's a lot. A lot of it was the vision and understanding of what I believed I could do and still believe I can do that I haven't had the opportunity to do yet. And you have to see it. You have to see it first. You have to have the vision first. So I've always, for whatever reason, had that vision that I can be, you know, when I was fanning myself like Scarlett O', Hara, yes, there was Butterfly, McQueen, and, you know, Hattie McDaniel, but I was Scarlett O'. Hara. Not that I wanted to be a white woman, but I wanted to be the main character. I wanted to be the object of desire and this hero's journey and arc and. Yeah. So, like, at 54, I still have a lot of work to do.

[Felice]

Yeah, but you've done so much. You must be. Are you not proud of your accomplishments? You.

[Laverne Cox]

You have to be. I. I am. I am. And I. And I. And it. Partly because it was. It's so improbable that it could happen. But what I. My career shows has shown that it's possible. When you. When they. When they. When you look at my resume, I say the first trans person to be nominated for primetime, maybe first trans person to blah, blah, blah, because it hadn't been done before, but I was the first, but I'm not the last. And that really is the thing that I'm proudest of, because now other trans people see that there's the possibilities there, and it can happen, and they're making it happen, which is incredible.

[Felice]

This is going to be perfect and really hard for you because it's a speed round. Before we go, we're going to give you a speed round of IRL questions.

[Laverne Cox]

Directors love me. I can take direction. So speed round, speed round, round.

[Felice]

What do you like most about yourself in real life?

[Laverne Cox]

I. I'm cute and adorable. I think I'm really adorable. And. And I really work hard to treat people well.

[Felice]

What is your super superpower?

[Laverne Cox]

Empathy.

[Felice]

Nice. I am no longer available for.

[Laverne Cox]

People, places, and things that will allow me to betray myself.

[Felice]

I'm no longer apologizing for.

[Laverne Cox]

Any.

[Felice]

Heard you. I didn't realize I was strong until.

[Laverne Cox]

Until I stepped back and took a look at what I endured.

[Felice]

How often do you think about your legacy? And what would you like that to be?

[Laverne Cox]

Whenever I think about this, I always think about what Maya Angelou said to Oprah when Oprah said this school in Africa is going to be my legacy. And Maya Angelou says, idea, you have no idea what your legacy will be. Your legacy is every person you turn touch. So I know what I want to leave behind in terms of a body of work. But that really spoke to me, what Maya Angelou said, I think. And when I meet people whose lives have been changed because of my visibility, my work, I'm like, that is. Yeah, because it's the people you would touch that, like, you know, when you're not famous, you know, there's so many people in the trans community who aren't never famous, but their names are carried on because they touch people's lives.

[Felice]

So what is the one thing that allies can do better to be supportive of the trans community? What do we get wrong? What do we get wrong? And what can we do better?

[Laverne Cox]

I think it's about listening more than you speak, and whenever possible, elevating the lived experiences and the voices of real trans people. We can speak for ourselves, we can advocate for ourselves. Just need the platform to do it. And. And when you see. Just like when people. If you see racism happening in front of you, you see transphobia happening in front of you, say something with love. You can say, and like, with love. That's. That's not cool. Yeah. Yeah, that's not cool. So if you have an opportunity to elevate, you know, trans stories, because our stories rehumanize us. And the dehumanization that. That creates a permission structure to take away rights and commit violence against people, that's what we're in now. The Lemkin center that studies genocide says we're on a trans people in America on a slow course towards genocide because of this administration. And genocide can only happen through dehumanization. So we rehumanize by connecting with people, stories, stories, and their lived experiences. When it's hard to dehumanize someone when you, like, sit here and you're, like, real. And I. I would hope.

[Felice]

I would hope, too.

[Laverne Cox]

Yeah.

[Felice]

That's my hope for the world, that I would hope that.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

Hey, guys, you ever sign up for a phone plan thinking, wow, what a great price.

[Felice]

And then a few months later, it's

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

like, surprise, your bill is higher. We hate that. With Boost mobile, you pay 25amonth, forever. That's unlimited talk, text, and data storage

[Felice]

starting at just $25 a month.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

There's no price hikes. There's no contract, and this is forever. Plus, Boost Mobile is now a legit nationwide 5G network. They invested billions building 5G towers. Across the country.

[Felice]

So what you need to do is

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

visit boostmobile.com or head to your local Boost store today and get unlimited talk, text and data for $25 a month. Forever 5G speeds not available in all areas. After 30 gigabytes, customers may experience slower speeds. Customers will pay 25amonth as long as they remain active on the Boost Unlimited plan.

[Felice]

Okay, our voicemail before you go. Come on. We have.

[Laverne Cox]

Are we not going to do the bowl?

[Felice]

We voice note. And then one question from the bowl and you're gone. And then we're out of here. And we're almost on time, I believe.

[Laverne Cox]

Hi, Laverne. I'm Joey. And my question for you is, when you close your eyes and imagine you have a day off, how do you decide to clean out? Love you and thank you for everything that you do for the community. Queen out.

[Felice]

Is that a real term?

[Laverne Cox]

I thought of. Queening out is in a different term. So the question is how on my off days, what do I do to queen out?

[Felice]

Queen out. I've never, I'm learning new terms today.

[Laverne Cox]

I was exhausted from that list of things. I was like, okay, massage, facial, and then you go to the club, too. Like, that's, that's a relaxing day. I, I work so much when I get a day off. I, I, A lot of times it's sleep. I've been binging. I've been binging shows. I just watched the boys finally and binged that. I love just binging out on tv and then I rewatch a lot of stuff. I rewatched Scandal like, a few times recently. And I love just being at home by myself. Like, quiet, quiet. Vegging out a quiet chill. It's a quiet. Because my work, I'm queening out of my work, right? All day, every day. Like, all day every day in different ways. So, like, everybody should. But my, my, my joy is really. It's my girlfriends. It's community. It's. I love trans people. I. We're so amazing.

[Felice]

Tell me the best thing about the trans community being part of it that we'll never understand. I don't even get to experience.

[Laverne Cox]

I mean, you know, everybody has, every community has issues. But the best, the best of us, though, like, my, my girls. My girls are smart, insightful, resilient, anointed, like we. And like. But people have to. What people should know and understand. I think I used to think gender 101 should be a core curriculum member university. The gender binary model is a Western European construct. Indigenous cultures all over the world have like, they move even in Africa, like, they move beyond male, female. They've been like, in India, they had the hijra who were like this third gender mahu in Hawaii. All over the world, indigenous cultures had their two spirit, different Native American tribes and who we would think of as trans people. And those hijra, like the Hijra would bless your wedding and bless the christening of a child. We were spiritual leaders in so many of these indigenous cultures. And I feel that inside of me and a lot of the trans people I know who are in touch with their light, have a spirit spirituality and in a wisdom that if we just listened, we could learn so much. So I think that's. That the anointed spirituality. And I think, like, what, what. What really comes down to for me and my transness, it's spiritual. Like, it's so funny. There's like all of the. Yes, medically transitioning was necessary for me. Gender affirming care saved my life. Life, it saves children's lives. But, like, what it allowed was this spiritual. It's a spiritual awakening. And all my friends say the same thing, my closest friends. It's. Being trans is a very spiritual thing. And that, that's, I mean, that's amazing because when you're in. When you're in the spirit, girl, when Oprah used to do that, like, remembering your spirit at the end of the open. When you're in the spirit, like in church, like in church, you get the spirit. You're in the spirit. Like, you want to tap your feet. You want to, like, you're connected to, like, to, to energy, a power source that's greater than yourself. And like, when at our best, we as trans people have that.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

Hey, guys. Support for this podcast is brought to you by Walden University. Have you ever thought to yourself, what if I could go after what I actually want and I could really make a difference? Well, you are not alone. And this is exactly why I want to tell you about Walden University. For over 50 years, Walden has helped working adults like you get the W with the knowledge, the skills, and everything you need to build the future that you want. And you can make a difference where it matters most. If you've been waiting for the right moment, this is it. Head to waldenu. Edu and take that first step. Walden University. University set a course for change. Certified to operate by Shiv. All right, it's time for our bowl. Our questions from the IRL bowl, presented by Walden University.

[Felice]

You want to pick or you want me to pick? You pick one.

[Laverne Cox]

Okay. Or I'll close my eyes.

[Felice]

Okay, close your eyes. Take that one and this one. And then we'll go.

[Laverne Cox]

Okay. And are you. Am I starting?

[Felice]

Okay. Yeah, you go.

[Laverne Cox]

Lately, I've been reminding myself that. That health is wealth. This is getting older. This is the getting older thing. And just like health is wealth, that I can't do anything. If my health fails me, then I'm. No.

[Felice]

And it's only when it goes down that you realize it and you appreciate it and you pray for it.

[Laverne Cox]

But it's something that I need to daily, you know, take care of myself. And that's loving myself, too.

[Felice]

That's funny. What do you pray for most?

[Laverne Cox]

God, give me permission to do this imperfectly and allow me to be of service. That's. That's the prayer I say most often.

[Felice]

Ooh, say that again. That's good.

[Laverne Cox]

God, give me permission to do this imperfectly and allow me to be of service. I started doing it. I was. When I was doing a lot of speaking engagements, and I'm so hard on myself, and I was just like, I'm not gonna be perfect. And then I was also like. Like the first trans person a lot of people would encounter. And I was like, I can't screw this up. And I was like, I'm not going to be perfect, but maybe I can be of service. I know I'm going to make a mistake. I know I'm going to mess up.

[Felice]

I'm so good.

[Laverne Cox]

So there it is.

[Felice]

That's the final question.

[Laverne Cox]

If God were to text you right now, what would it say? What would the text say? If God were to text me right now, what would it say? Don't worry, I got you. Just turn it over to me.

[Felice]

Laverne Cox in real life. Everybody.

[Laverne Cox]

Girl. Girl, I need it. I need it. Yeah, I don't want to text anymore. I'm just gonna. I'm gonna just try to let that.

[Felice]

Let that download a little bit. Thank you for today. That was beautiful.

[Laverne Cox]

This is Laverne Cox in real life.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

Hey, guys, thanks for watching. Make sure you subscribe, like, comment and check out all of the other episodes we have on Andrew Moore T Tina's IRL podcast.

[Colin Coward]

Hi, it's Colin Coward from the Colin Coward podcast. Every goal starts with an assist. As Official partners of U.S. soccer, this team is ready to deliver Sensodyne dentist recommended. Defense of your sensitive teeth. Centrum. Fueling your day with science backed nutrients. Advil, of course. Powerful inflammation fighting pain relief. Voltaren arthritis gel helps penetrate deep, keeps the joints moving and Tums ready to counterattack with fast heartburn relief. Learn how Halion can assist your game day [e-mail] Colin what's up cousin?

[Laverne Cox]

I want a new phone. Have you seen any good deals? Everyone has free phones but when I

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

switched to T Mobile I got more

[Cindy Crawford (Ad voice)]

value and so much more like streaming included and travel benefits.

[Laverne Cox]

And the best part? The price of your talk, text and data is guaranteed for five years. Get more benefits and more value AT T Mobile Family save and get a 5 year price guarantee. Switch now@t mobile.com Qualifying plan requires price guarantee on talk, text and theta. Exclusions like taxes and fees apply.

[Daniel Cormier]

CT mobile.com this is Daniel Cormier from the Daniel Cormier Show. This podcast is sponsored by Total Wireless, the official wireless partner of UFC Power D. It doesn't wait. In the octagon or outside of it, you either make the move or you miss the moment. That's why you need a network that's just as powerful as you are. With Total Wireless, you get unlimited 5G data keeping you in the action from the walkouts to the knockouts. Now that's a total power move. Make your total power move today. Visit totalwireless.com or stop by your neighborhood Total Wireless Store. Additional terms apply. See totalwireless.com for details.

[Laverne Cox]

Real value shows up in reliability. You don't have to second guess. Like a set of Firestone All Season tires.

[Colin Coward]

They're designed to deliver confidence inspiring wet

[Laverne Cox]

weather, traction and a quieter ride no

[Colin Coward]

matter the road, season after season. Firestone All Season tires for durability you can count on, just like people count on you. Firestone Firestone always dependable since 1900

[Felice]

this

[Laverne Cox]

is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.