Joe Rogan Experience for AI
Episode: Can We Guide Artificial Thought?
Release Date: July 21, 2025

Introduction

In this episode of the "Joe Rogan Experience for AI," host Joe Rogan Experience for AI delves into the emerging consensus among leading AI companies regarding the monitoring and understanding of artificial intelligence's reasoning processes. The discussion centers around a recently published paper by top AI researchers and explores the implications of transparency in AI decision-making.

Industry Unity and the Positioning Paper [00:00 - 10:30]

The episode begins with Joe highlighting a significant development in the AI sector: a surprising unity among industry giants such as OpenAI, Google, DeepMind, and Anthropic. These companies, along with their leading researchers, have collaboratively published a paper emphasizing the importance of monitoring AI's "thoughts" and its reasoning processes.

Joe explains that the paper focuses on "Thoughts of AI Reasoning Models", particularly the concept known as Chain of Thought (CoT). This refers to the step-by-step reasoning that AI models undertake to arrive at answers, akin to how humans solve complex problems by breaking them down into manageable steps.

"Chain of thought monitoring represents a valuable addition to safety measures for Frontier AI, offering a rare glimpse into how AI agents make decisions."
— Positioning Paper [04:45]

Chain of Thought: Understanding AI Reasoning [10:31 - 20:00]

Joe provides an overview of how Chain of Thought works across different AI models. He compares the reasoning process of AI to humans working through a complex math problem, where the AI breaks down the problem into smaller, logical steps before arriving at a solution. This approach contrasts with earlier AI models that attempted to generate answers in a single step without transparent reasoning.

He highlights that while companies like DeepMind quickly adopted and enhanced their models using CoT, OpenAI initially kept the inner workings of their reasoning processes guarded. However, other companies have since introduced features that allow users to view the AI's step-by-step thought process, enhancing transparency and trust.

"You can essentially see exactly what's going on... it's useful."
— Joe Rogan Experience for AI [12:15]

Monitoring and Safety Concerns [20:01 - 30:00]

The core of the discussion revolves around the concept of monitorability in AI models. The positioning paper advocates for maintaining the visibility of AI's reasoning processes to ensure safety and alignment with intended outcomes. Joe emphasizes that without such transparency, AI could become a "black box," making it difficult to ascertain whether it remains aligned with human values and safety standards.

However, Joe introduces a critical perspective by speculating that maintaining CoT visibility might also serve competitive interests. By allowing others to observe the AI's reasoning, companies could inadvertently enable competitors to reverse-engineer and replicate successful strategies.

"If you're one of these AI researchers and you want to reverse engineer how other models are staying best in class... looking at the chain of thought could be a way."
— Joe Rogan Experience for AI [26:50]

Competitive Dynamics in the AI Industry [30:01 - 40:00]

Joe delves into the intense competition within the AI sector, noting actions like Mark Zuckerberg hiring top researchers from OpenAI. This "bloodbath" for talent underscores the high stakes involved in developing superior AI models. Joe posits that the push for CoT monitoring might be a strategic move to standardize safety measures across leading models, ensuring that no single company gains an overwhelming advantage without transparency.

He questions whether the positioning paper is a genuine call for enhanced safety or a tactic to level the playing field among top AI companies, making it harder for new entrants to leapfrog established players with proprietary advancements.

"These are already all the top companies... are they trying to make sure that everyone plays by the same rules?"
— Joe Rogan Experience for AI [33:20]

Future Directions and Open Questions [40:01 - 50:00]

Looking ahead, Joe discusses Anthropic's ambitious goal to demystify the AI "black box" by 2027. Dario Amadei, CEO of Anthropic, aims to develop techniques that will elucidate the underlying algorithms and processes driving AI decision-making. This endeavor is seen as crucial for ensuring long-term safety and alignment of AI systems.

Joe underscores the paradox that, despite advancements, the fundamental workings of AI models remain largely opaque. The pursuit to fully understand and explain AI reasoning is portrayed as both a technological and ethical imperative.

"It's crazy to think we don't even know how these AI models work. We just train the algorithm and it gives us a good result."
— Joe Rogan Experience for AI [48:10]

Conclusion and Final Thoughts [50:01 - End]

Joe wraps up the episode by reflecting on the significance of the positioning paper and the collective stance of top AI companies on chain of thought monitoring. He reiterates the importance of transparency for safety but remains skeptical about the underlying motives, considering the fierce competition in the industry.

Jerry acknowledges that while the current measures are a step in the right direction, the future of AI safety hinges on continued collaboration and openness among researchers and companies.

"Bowen Baker... said, we're at this critical time where we have this new chain of thought thing. It seems pretty useful, but it could go away in a few years if people don't really concentrate on it."
— Joe Rogan Experience for AI [45:30]

Key Takeaways

• Chain of Thought (CoT) is a pivotal concept in AI reasoning, enabling step-by-step problem-solving similar to human cognitive processes.
• Leading AI companies have united to emphasize the importance of monitoring AI's reasoning to ensure safety and alignment.
• Competitive dynamics in the AI industry may influence the adoption and transparency of CoT, potentially serving both safety and strategic interests.
• Anthropic's initiative to decode the AI "black box" by 2027 represents a significant effort towards greater transparency and understanding of AI algorithms.
• The future of AI safety relies on sustained collaboration and openness among researchers and industry leaders.

Notable Quotes

• "Chain of thought monitoring represents a valuable addition to safety measures for Frontier AI, offering a rare glimpse into how AI agents make decisions."
  — Positioning Paper [04:45]

• "You can essentially see exactly what's going on... it's useful."
  — Joe Rogan Experience for AI [12:15]

• "If you're one of these AI researchers and you want to reverse engineer how other models are staying best in class... looking at the chain of thought could be a way."
  — Joe Rogan Experience for AI [26:50]

• "It's crazy to think we don't even know how these AI models work. We just train the algorithm and it gives us a good result."
  — Joe Rogan Experience for AI [48:10]

• "Bowen Baker... said, we're at this critical time where we have this new chain of thought thing. It seems pretty useful, but it could go away in a few years if people don't really concentrate on it."
  — Joe Rogan Experience for AI [45:30]

Final Remarks

For those interested in exploring the latest AI models, Joe briefly mentions AI Box, a platform offering access to over 40 AI models with features like Media Storage to easily manage generated content. The service is available for $19 a month, consolidating various AI subscriptions into a single platform.

"If you enjoyed the podcast episode today, the number one way that you could say thank you is to leave a rating and review or comment wherever you get your podcast."

This episode provides a comprehensive look into the current state of AI reasoning transparency, the collaborative efforts of top AI companies, and the ongoing balance between safety and competitive advantage in the rapidly evolving AI landscape.