The Joe Rogan Experience #2452 — Roger Avary

Date: February 11, 2026
Host: Joe Rogan
Guest: Roger Avary (Oscar-winning screenwriter, director, and writer of "Pulp Fiction," "Killing Zoe," "The Rules of Attraction," etc.)

Episode Overview

This episode features a wide-ranging, often mind-bending conversation between Joe Rogan and Roger Avary. The two traverse the history and craft of filmmaking, dissect iconic movies and directors, and spiral into provocative theories about media manipulation, government conspiracies, societal control, and the nature of reality itself. Avary brings both his Hollywood insider knowledge and a penchant for conspiracy, making for an episode dense with movie lore, social commentary, and late-night rabbit holes about everything from the flat earth to the rewriting of history. The tone is conversational, irreverent, skeptical, and occasionally conspiratorial.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Classic Hollywood Stories & Innovations in Filmmaking

• Behind-the-scenes Meltdowns: Joe and Roger open with anecdotes about on-set breakdowns, referencing William Shatner’s famous "sabotage" argument and Orson Welles’ drunken Gallo wine ads.
• Orson Welles’ Genius and Downfall:
  • Welles' creative battles and innovative techniques in "Citizen Kane": e.g., digging holes to place cameras for low angles (Roger, 02:58).
  • The movie’s direct insults to William Randolph Hearst and rumored references ("Rosebud" as Hearst’s nickname for his lover’s clitoris) led to the mogul destroying Welles’ career (Roger, 02:13).
  • Touch of Evil (1958), Welles' later masterpiece, and its famous opening tracking shot, with Charlton Heston playing a Mexican – “Chuck Heston as a Mexican is fantastic” (Roger, 06:23).
  • The technical challenges of filming with huge, noisy cameras (“Mitchell BNCR”), and how old movies would “let a scene cook” for pacing, unlike today (Joe, 09:42).
• Moviegoing as a Communal, Almost Religious Experience:
  • Watching movies in theaters, sitting next to strangers, creates “unseen electricity…that unifies us” (Roger, 11:52).
  • Streamed entertainment isolates and divides people, affecting how films are made and experienced.

2. Streaming Culture, Studio Interference & the "White Paper" Era

• Netflix and Creative Control:
  • Studios and streamers employ rigid formulas for commercial success (the Sid Field screenwriting model and now even mandated cameras/tech specs) (Roger, 10:03).
  • Changes in shooting and editing due to digital film – less magic, more interference, endless takes, and focus on what data says will perform, rather than instinct or vision (Roger, 13:21).
• The Impact on Cinema:
  • Loss of tactile filmmaking (“burning money” when shooting on celluloid leads to more discipline and artistry) (Roger, 13:29).
  • Shift to digital described in terms of the “paint” metaphor: oil vs. watercolor, each medium with different properties (Roger, 16:45).
  • Roger argues digital “loves darkness” whereas film “loves the light”—explains mixed-media usage in “Silent Hill” (Roger, 36:30).

3. Contemporary Filmmakers & Film Critique

• Guillermo del Toro & Modern Blockbusters:
  • Roger admires del Toro’s artistry but is lukewarm on his films ("I love his spirit, but…I'm not wild about his movies that much") (Roger, 23:36).
  • They both discuss recent adaptations of “Frankenstein” and “Nosferatu,” the technical choices, and emotional effect (Joe, 32:04).
• The Value of "Faults":
  • Modern digital perfectionism is less compelling than the faults and grain of older films. Roger argues we now seek to artificially mimic those faults for nostalgia (Roger, 20:52).
  • Even superhero and franchise films emulate phone footage, leading to a flattening of visual style (Roger, 22:14).
• Vampire Movies:
  • Discuss merits of films like “What We Do In The Shadows,” “Let the Right One In,” “I Am Legend,” “30 Days of Night,” and classic “Nosferatu” (commending the Herzog/Kinski version for its timeless, haunted quality) (Roger, 38:22; 41:12).

4. Media, Ideology, and "Propaganda" in Storytelling

• Streaming Killed Residuals: Roger suggests the move to streaming was partly to avoid paying artists residuals and has "harmed the creative process" (13:21).
• DEI and Modern TV/Movies:
  • Roger and Joe critique how diversity, equity, and inclusion can sometimes feel like forced corporate messaging, displacing organic, skillful storytelling (Roger, 47:29; 54:46).
  • They draw a contrast between shows that wove social issues gracefully (“Star Trek: The Next Generation”) and recent “woke” failures driven by new, less skilled showrunners (Roger, 51:16).
  • “Picard was terrible. It was sad, actually. It was just depressing for me.” (Joe, 53:05)
• Orville as True Star Trek Successor: Seth MacFarlane’s “The Orville” praised as recapturing old Trek’s spirit via bringing back original writers (Roger, 53:22).

5. Conspiracies, Reality, & Societal Control

• Epstein, Power, and Society:
  • Deep dive into Epstein files and codes (pizza, grape soda, sulfuric acid) and recurring disbelief of the public (Roger, 71:43).
  • Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur: “The world wants to be deceived, therefore let it be deceived.” (Roger, 73:10).
  • The idea of “predictive programming”: movies like “Fight Club” or “The Medusa Touch” as blueprints for future events, e.g., 9/11 (Roger, 105:22).
  • “There is so much out there that it…falls to faith. And also, what does it really matter?” (Roger, 151:56).
• Media Brainwashing & the Modern “Bolshevik” Moment:
  • “Dark forces” want to “divide people up and take away that congregation” (Roger, 12:54).
  • The rise of “authoritarianism in the guise of egalitarianism,” drawing parallels to Bolshevik Russia and the present political moment (Roger, 92:09).
• Desensitization and the Last Six Years:
  • Society’s collective shock from pandemic, political upheaval, and “aliens” making people numb and passive (Joe & Roger, 87:15).
  • “People’s brains have been fried…probably because of the COVID shot completely frying their pineal glands…” (Roger, 10:45).

6. The Nature of Reality: History, Flat Earth, and Mathematical Mysticism

• History Has Been Rewritten:
  • Roger espouses Anatoly Fomenko’s “New Chronology”—1,000 years of history were fabricated to justify land claims (Roger, 82:11).
• Are We Living in the 1700s?
  • “We're not in 2026? No, we're like in the 1700s.” (Joe & Roger, 86:03).
• Flat Earth & Simulation Theories:
  • Roger provocatively floats flat-earth ideas to illustrate the limits of belief and faith in institutional science (“Experientially, through the testimony of the eyes, it is flat.” – Roger, 116:29).
  • Extended debate over visual evidence, satellite photos, pilot and sniper calculations, but Roger maintains skepticism and faith-based epistemology (116:46–148:14, 151:56).
  • “What does it matter to anybody that there’s a cabal of 8,000 people who are secretly controlling the world…as long as you can just have your daily pint?” (Roger, 151:56).
• Mathematics and Mysticism:
  • Joe brings up Gematria, the mathematical coding in Hebrew, and the philosophical notion that the universe is “made out of math…encoded in the universe itself.” (Joe, 128:55).
  • Isaac Asimov's work and ancient alphabets that blend numerical and phonetic meaning discussed for their comparative complexity (Roger, 134:57).

7. Demons, Possession, and Evil

• Evil in the World:
  • Joe and Roger discuss atrocities, demonic acts (like the Hiroshima bomb), and the notion of demons working “through the shoulders of men and whisper[ing] into their ears” (Roger, 153:32).
  • Evil is justified through rationalization—the classic "boil the frog" approach (Roger, 155:32).
• Possession in Storytelling:
  • The Exorcist possibly encoding a real-life abuse story in its narrative; film as an invitation to “possession” or inspiration. “Motion pictures are a kind of magic spell. When you write, you’re…inviting possession.” (Roger, 174:27).

8. New Media, Old Ideas: Alternative Shows and Decentralization

• Rise of Unsanctioned Hits:
  • “The Chosen” (a crowdfunded Jesus series) as a breakout TV success outside traditional Hollywood, made with meager resources but yielding a genuine connection with viewers (Roger, 176:27).
  • “It was like a third eye opened up to me…” (Roger, 178:34).
• The New Business Model:
  • Avary is now able to raise money for movies simply by utilizing the AI buzzword (“just put AI in front of it…all of a sudden, you’re in production on three features”), highlighting the fickleness of traditional film financing (Roger, 182:46).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Welles’ Innovation:
  • “He would just grab a…pickaxe and start chopping away at the studio concrete…so you can put the camera down that low.” (Roger, 02:58)
• On the Magic of Theaters:
  • “You’re sharing your bodily electricity with them. And I think this kind of…is the magic…of movies.” (Roger, 11:52)
• On Streaming, White Papers, and Covid Culture:
  • “They’ve analytically looked at what audiences are able to process now, which is less and less, probably because of the COVID shot completely frying their pineal glands…” (Roger, 10:45)
• On Star Trek and Inclusive Storytelling:
  • “Every day there’s at least two or three episodes of Star Trek playing in my house…” (Roger, 47:50)
• On Propaganda and Systemic Control:
  • “Whenever you make any media, there’s…corporate propaganda and personal propaganda…now…more corporate propaganda.” (Roger, 46:29)
• On Predictive Programming and 9/11:
  • “That movie was called Fight Club…end of that movie is the collapsing of buildings…Which are the financial system.” (Roger, 105:22)
• On Flat Earth and Faith:
  • “I don’t know what the Earth is…experientially…the testimony of the eyes, it’s flat…what does all of that really matter?” (Roger, 116:29, 151:56)
• On Evil and Demons:
  • “Demons rest upon the shoulders of men and whisper in their ears, and people do evil things.” (Roger, 153:32)
• On The Chosen and Forgiveness in Storytelling:
  • “The bread and butter of Hollywood is revenge and wrath. It is much more difficult…to make a movie about forgiveness. And this kid, Dallas Jenkins…has done this magnificent, unbelievable achievement.” (Roger, 178:34)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Orson Welles & Citizen Kane: 02:00–07:30
• Touch of Evil camera technology: 06:23–08:30
• Movies as communal experience: 11:42–12:54
• Streaming & Netflix formulas: 10:03–13:21
• Digital vs. film shooting & magic: 13:29–16:45
• Modern directors, faults as virtues: 20:52–24:33
• Recent horror/vampire films: 38:22–41:12
• Media propaganda & Star Trek/Orville: 47:29–54:46
• Epstein files and societal numbness: 71:39–75:56
• Fomenko’s “New Chronology” – history rewritten: 81:52–86:03
• Flat Earth debate: 115:50–149:01
• Nature of evil, demons, and justification: 153:21–155:32
• Exorcist hidden abuse narrative: 169:57–174:27
• The Chosen and new indie content models: 176:27–181:56
• AI filmmaking funding and technology: 182:45–183:52
• Closing fact-check re: ISS footage: 184:21–185:13

Overall Flow and Tone

The conversation is curious, skeptical, playful, and at times, provocative or even surreal. Joe acts as both skeptic and guide, pushing back while also letting Roger chase his big, sometimes wild ideas to their conclusions. Roger oscillates between cinephile, technologist, and conspiracy theorist, offering deep knowledge of filmmaking alongside speculative theory.

Useful for New Listeners?

Absolutely—this summary provides a detailed mapping of all the episode’s topics, marked by memorable quotes and timestamps. It encapsulates both the expertise and eccentricities on display, and serves as a rich reference for anyone interested in film, cultural criticism, media, and the philosophy of storytelling—or who wants to hear two very different (but sometimes overlapping) worldviews go at it for close to three hours.