Brian Wilson: BEAUTIFUL DREAMER WAKE

Summary

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Jokermen Podcast – Brian Wilson: BEAUTIFUL DREAMER WAKE

Date: February 23, 2026
Hosts: Ian and Evan
Episode Theme: The creation of "Brian Wilson Presents Smile" – exploring how the legendary unfinished Beach Boys project was finally realized four decades later, focusing on the personal, musical, and collaborative journey of Brian Wilson, Van Dyke Parks, and Darian Sahanaja.

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Episode Overview

The Jokermen return for the first half of their two-part "Brian Wilson Presents Smile" extravaganza—a culmination of their long-running, deeply personal Beach Boys series. Ian and Evan dissect the resurrection of Smile, emphasizing its transformation from the most famous lost album in pop to a miraculous late-career triumph for Brian Wilson. Drawing on David Leaf’s documentary Beautiful Dreamer and his book Smile: The Rise, Fall and Resurrection of Brian Wilson, the episode weaves personal history, band drama, and mythic creative struggle to show how Wilson’s “final showdown” with his demons resulted in artistic victory.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Episode As Culmination

• “It’s a culmination.” (Evan, 01:11) This is framed as the apex of the Brian Wilson series, the summit of his late period brilliance. The hosts mark the era from the 2003 Smile project through the 2012 Beach Boys reunion as Wilson's “final run of brilliance and joy.”
• They clarify although this is not the full finale, it is the emotional high point.

2. Brian Wilson’s Personal Struggle & Breakthrough

• Wilson’s performance of “Beautiful Dreamer” on camera, the “thousand yard stare,” and his signature disconnect after moments of vulnerability signal the tension between his innocence and lifelong struggles with mental illness (see 04:48–05:39).
• Quote:
  • “He does that cute little thing and then his eyes just kind of like instantly go somewhere... Just glazes over. Seems potentially kind of dark and mysterious. Like a thousand yard stare that just sort of like is the, the resting face.”
    – Evan (04:36–05:03)
• The episode conveys how Smile’s completion was Wilson overcoming the “invisible evil forces that haunt Brian Wilson.”—
  • “Ultimately this is kind of the final showdown between those... invisible evil forces that haunt Brian Wilson are. And, and Brian Wilson himself. And. And they are not victorious. He. Brian is victorious.” (Evan, 05:41–06:02)

3. Revisiting Trauma and Healing Through Music

• The psychological barrier: For years, Wilson forbade his band from even mentioning Smile-era songs.
  • “Brian said, that reminds me of a bad time. I don’t want to think about it, so please don’t refer to those songs.” – Ian, quoting Probin Gregory (07:20–08:00)
• Emotional security as the key to revival: Wilson could only revisit Smile after finding safety and support—particularly at informal gatherings and tribute shows leading up to the project.
  • “He probably felt safe and at ease in ways that he hadn’t, and it just seemed possible when it hadn’t before.” – Evan (09:00–09:30)

4. The Challenge of Reassembling “Smile”

• Historic context: Smile’s original tapes were modular, scattered, and incomplete; the 2004 project involved much newly created material and careful assembly by Wilson, Van Dyke Parks, and Darian Sahanaja.
  • “How much of what ends up being Brian Wilson Presents Smile... is a 2004 creation... This is new shit.” – Ian (13:20–14:45)
• Metaphor: The original Smile as a “warehouse full of unassembled Disneyland rides,” with new construction inevitably informed by the intervening decades (14:45–17:45).
• Recognition that a literal recreation was impossible, transforming the work into an act of creative reinterpretation.
  • “It's a legit new construction circa 2004.” – Ian (17:45)
• Comparisons: The hosts explore similarities with attempts to reconstruct lost films (e.g., Orson Welles’ The Magnificent Ambersons, The Other Side of the Wind), noting the crucial difference: Brian directed Smile himself, even if as a new person.

5. The Artist’s “Madness” and Creative Courage

• Van Dyke Parks:
  • “There was something about Brian's character, his artistic integrity that appealed to me... what made Van Gogh go was this schizophrenic state of mind...” (Ian, quoting Van Dyke, 21:07)
  • The necessity (and burden) of “exploring your medium with no shelter”—bravery as both inspiration and threat.
  • The hosts discuss whether Smile could ever have been finished in the ‘60s, suggesting perhaps not: “like, his mind was expanding faster than he could follow it” (Evan, 22:34–23:44).

6. Retrospective Fulfillment vs. Missed Possibilities

• Philosophy: Smile’s failure in the ‘60s ultimately enriched the world—yielding not only Smiley Smile but the cathartic, communal achievement of the 2004 version.
  • “The world is richer for Smile never having been created in the first place or finished in the first place, because we got something nearly as good in Smiley Smile and then we got the real ass thing with Smile itself.” – Ian (25:49)
  • “Smiley Smile is very good... I might like it more than Brian Wilson Presents Smile.” – Evan (25:56)
  • The hosts debate which version is “weirder” or more radical, Smiley Smile or Smile, and how context shapes perception (63:31–65:25).

7. Making Smile (2004): Nuts, Bolts, and Risk

• The new project was only possible through institutional support (Royal Festival Hall in London), key band members, and the right convergence of personal factors.
  • “...people just kind of came to him and said, hey, we'll pay for this if you can really put this together and make it happen.” – Ian (27:47)
• Brian's initial disengagement: After publicly announcing Smile’s revival, Wilson left the team in suspense for months, almost avoiding the process entirely until Darian Sahanaja actively took charge.
  • Darian’s technical approach: assembling Smile “modules” with digital audio software and guiding Brian through a process of sense-memory reconstruction (41:54–45:25).

8. Van Dyke Parks’ Return and the Spirit of Collaboration

• Pivotal moment: As Darian and Brian dig through archival lyric sheets unable to decipher a word, Brian calls Van Dyke—who instantly re-enters the process forty years after his departure.
  • Quote & Scene:
    “Hi, Van Dyke, this is Brian... You know the song Do You Like Worms?” – (Ian, 48:18)
    The playful, affectionate dynamic between Brian, Darian, and Van Dyke is highlighted:
    • “I think what you've done is very, very creative. And I think that people are gonna get the fuck off on it.” – Evan, as Van Dyke (49:57–50:05)
    • “I love you...Everybody loves you.” – Evan (50:17)
    • “I just want to do good work.” – Darian (50:19)
• Parks describes Smile as “a cartoon consciousness,” likening it to animation or a “Fantasia”-style feature (51:46–52:48).

9. Craft, Theme Parks, and the Essence of Smile

• Smile’s kinship with Disneyland and American myth: “It’s like a ride... a dark ride” (Evan, 56:01) – structurally and emotionally, Smile is likened to ambitious, sometimes unruly theme park attractions or whole imagined worlds.
  • Recurring motifs: the “Pirates of the Caribbean” ride, fractured narratives, and “collages of Americana.”
• Parks’ and Brian’s mutual fascination with pure creative play—looping musical figures, motifs as microcosms of entire worlds:
  • “It's the entire existence of the universe is in there. That’s what Smile is like.” – Evan (57:57)

10. The Final Assemblage and Brian’s Reluctance

• As the new band assembles for rehearsal, Brian’s reticence returns—morose, withdrawn, nearly dropping out. Only a sense of duty and not wanting arguments prompts him to continue (70:11–71:00).
  • “I don’t want to get in an argument with someone, so I guess I’ll go out and just face the biggest demon fear of my entire life just so I don’t get in an argument with the promoter.” – Ian (70:44)
• Despite a rocky start, rehearsal “gets progressively better,” and levity returns—Brian shares a story about a “prostate exam” that breaks the tension (71:00–72:00).
• Final rehearsals in a Burbank warehouse—emphasizing the weird, dreamlike roots and LA flavor of the Smile project.

11. The Premiere: Triumph and Catharsis

• Wilson and the band travel to London for the Smile debut, with everything hanging in the balance until the last minute. Against all odds, the show is a smash; the emotional climax comes as Brian brings Van Dyke Parks onstage and raises his hand (74:05–74:23).
  • “It’s a beautiful testament... to the power of friendship.” – Ian (74:31)

12. Legacy of Smile – Final Reflections

• Parks and the hosts reflect on the significance of Smile as an act of healing and artistic assertion:
  • “But what really interests me about the performance of Smile is that Brian Wilson will have done Smile. He will have done it for himself, for his own pleasure... it will find its proper dynamic.” – Van Dyke Parks, quoted by Ian (75:11–77:22)
• The good guys (Brian and Van Dyke) win, at least in “this story” (74:59–75:11).
• The band’s and listeners’ emotional journey is foregrounded—surviving decades of myth, trauma, and heartbreak to realize something uniquely American and unrepeatable.

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On Brian’s signature vulnerability:
  “He does that cute little thing and then his eyes just kind of like instantly go somewhere... just glazes over. Seems potentially kind of dark and mysterious.” — Evan (04:36–05:03)
• On artistic courage:
  “There’s no shelter in the arts. You have to be willing to explore with your medium in any way that you can. It takes courage.” — Van Dyke Parks, read by Ian (21:09–22:18)
• On the “modular” construction of Smile:
  “You could think of it kind of like a Disneyland where all of the rides and lands are just in a big warehouse ready to be placed around, but they haven’t been.” — Evan (14:45)
• On assembling the 2004 version:
  “I was just moving pieces around with digital technology... Brian is just recalling through 37 years of sense memory.” — Ian (45:10)
• Pivotal collaboration moment:
  “Hi, Van Dyke, this is Brian. You know the song Do You Like Worms?” — (Ian, recounting Darian’s story, 48:18)
• On the joy and tension of reunion:
  “I think what you’ve done is very, very creative. And I think that people are gonna get the fuck off on it.” — Evan as Van Dyke (49:57–50:05)
• Van Dyke’s reflection on art and forgiveness:
  “Smile to me is the residue of a real desire of some things that music can speak to, like in this case, loyalty and friendship and the general humanities, confirmational things.” — Van Dyke, read by Ian (59:10)
• Facing the challenge:
  “It is an unbelievable amount of personal pressure, artistic pressure. To put on yourself. I can’t even think of another example that feels as intense where this thing that’s not just incomplete, but forbidden, like, locked away in your mind and locked from your soul for decades, and now you’re just gonna perform it.” — Evan (33:18–33:50)
• Van Dyke’s philosophy at the Premiere (closing):
  “But what really interests me about the performance of Smile is that Brian Wilson will have done Smile. He will have done it for himself, for his own pleasure, to hear it and to see how it works in a real, direct, interactive way... it will find its proper dynamic.” — Ian, quoting Van Dyke (75:11–77:22)

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Key Timestamps

• Brian’s personal darkness vs. optimism: 04:36–06:02
• Smile as forbidden territory, trauma: 07:20–08:56
• Smile’s modular chaos and late-era creation: 13:20–17:45
• Van Dyke Parks on “crazy” creativity: 21:07–22:34
• Debate over Smile vs. Smiley Smile: 25:49–26:05; 63:28–65:25
• Building Smile with Darian and digital audio: 41:54–45:25
• Legendary call to Van Dyke Parks: 48:18–48:53
• Creative camaraderie, laughter: 49:57–50:17
• Brian’s stage fright and Burbank rehearsals: 70:11–72:26
• London premiere and catharsis: 73:53–74:31
• Van Dyke’s closing monologue on artistic redemption: 75:11–77:22

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Episode Tone and Language

• Informal, conversational, and affectionate with regular digressions and jokes, in the hosts’ trademark “brulian” idiom (i.e., deeply engaged but self-deprecating, playful, honest, and reverent toward their subject).
• Features poetic and philosophical moments from Van Dyke Parks, along with candid band anecdotes.
• Runs on camaraderie, pop-cultural analogies (Disneyland, Orson Welles, the Beatles), and an unabashed sense of awe toward Wilson’s achievement.

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Summary

This Jokermen episode traces the emotional and practical journey by which Brian Wilson, with Van Dyke Parks and Darian Sahanaja, finally exorcised the ghost of Smile. Through a creative process grounded in memory, improvisation, and unexpected friendship, the trio turned a legendary failure into a miracle of late-era musical resurrection. Their story, as told in Beautiful Dreamer and expanded here, is one of trauma, joy, artistic courage, and hard-won redemption—a testament to the enduring power of musical friendship, the strange machinery of pop history, and the victory of goodness (and good songs) over darkness.

Next episode: an in-depth musical breakdown of “Brian Wilson Presents Smile.”

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Transcript

[Ian]

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[Evan]

Welcome back to Jokerman Brian Wilson Podcast, Evan. I'm Evan.

[Ian]

I'm Ian.

[Evan]

And today we are doing the first part of our. It's kind of like the finale in a way. I mean, it's not literally the last thing we're doing, but it's a culmination.

[Ian]

It is, yes. It's a closing of a circle, the completion of a cycle begun many years earlier. That's right. It's the first of a two part Brian Wilson presents Smile Extravaganza here on old Jokerman podcast. And it is. If there is going to be one final kind of summit, apex of the Brian Wilson series on the podcast, this is, this is going to be it. It is not the finale. There is still plenty of great material to come. I kind of think of this now as sort of the beginning of like Brian's late era. Well, I mean, his late era has begun, but, but the high point of his late era, I think the 10 years in his career that spanned from the creation of small island, like 2003 to the completion of the Beach Boys reunion tour and God made the radio in 2012, 2013. That's it. And there's still even more to talk about after that. But I think this is kind of the beginning of this final run of brilliance and joy from dear old bdw. That's me.

[Evan]

That's me. Beautiful dreamer, awaken to me Starlight and dew drops are waiting for thee Beautiful dreamer, wake. Bdw. Brian Douglas Wilson. That's me.

[Ian]

Bd. What is the W, Douglas, but the W. Wilson. Oh, come on.

[Evan]

Oh, but, but I mean, what is he talking.

[Ian]

Because bdw, he says, Brian Douglas Wilson, that's me.

[Evan]

I mean, beautiful dreamer wake is what he says.

[Ian]

Yes, that is what he says.

[Evan]

That's what I mean with. What's the W like when he's like, beautiful dreamer, wake up to me that bdw, that's me.

[Ian]

That's me. A beautiful, beautiful little Bit of Brian Wilsonism on camera. There's all sorts in one of the two sources that we'll be drawing from on today's program. So just, you know, we've done these kind of story time episodes a few times in the past. This will probably be the last of those. But we're gonna narrate. Narrate the creation, the raising of the Titanic, to use Brian's terminology, I.e. smile. And then our next episode we'll actually talk about that beautiful song cycle. And so on this episode, yeah, we will be drawing from two sources, both from our dear friend Mr. David Leaf, one of which is the Beautiful Dreamer documentary which was created by David. Directed by David.

[Evan]

Directed.

[Ian]

That's right. During the creation of the Smichel Spiel record. And then also David's book that came out last year that I interviewed him about the rise, fall and resurrection of Brian Wilson, which is basically drawn from the same footage and interviews of the Beautiful Dreamer documentary. But there's just a whole lot more context there. Interviews with Van Dyke, the band members, Brian himself. So that's, that's what we'll be drawing on here. And yes, the, the beginning of Beautiful Dreamer is just pure Steve bullshit. I don't know how else to describe it.

[Evan]

Yeah. And it's Brulian. The. The moment like the instant after he says, that's me, that's me. There's.

[Ian]

Check it out, there's.

[Evan]

There's like a. It feels so essentially Brian Wilson because he does that cute little thing and then his eyes just kind of like instantly go somewhere.

[Ian]

Just glazes over.

[Evan]

Seems potentially kind of dark and mysterious. Like a thousand yard stare that just sort of like is the, the resting face.

[Ian]

But despite that RBF resting brule face for Brian.

[Evan]

Yeah. Despite his tendency to have a default setting of literally voices in his head telling him.

[Ian]

Auditory hallucinations, I believe he describes them.

[Evan]

Yeah. You know that there's like an actual palpable sense of menace and misery. He is such a pure and beautiful soul that.

[Ian]

A beautiful dreamer, you could say.

[Evan]

Yes, you could say that. It. It's no match. Ultimately this is kind of the final showdown between those. Whatever the invisible evil forces that haunt Brian Wilson are. And, and Brian Wilson himself. And. And they are not victorious. He. Brian is victorious.

[Ian]

That's right. The evil forces are not. Are not victorious. Brian does, does achieve it finally. And that's, I think the excitement of getting to do a series like this is getting to this point which, you know, I know as, as we've discussed recently, it's been a long journey with the Beach Boys. We've been doing the Beach Boys for basically as long as we did Bob. This series is going to end just about two years after we started in April 24th. And the bot like Jokerman, Jokerman was just June 2020 to June 2022. So we have devoted, you know, as much time and effort and energy to our life or of our lives, to this shit, to just, you know, Stars and Stripes and the Carl Wilson albums and NASCAR salutes and so on. We've devoted as much to that as all of the Bob Dylan brilliance. So all of that is to say, this is what, this is why we do it is because we get to this point and we get to finally, finally see what we've all been working up to lo these many months in our lives and many years in Brian's. Well, should we just. Should we get to it?

[Evan]

Yes.

[Ian]

Okay, so I'm going to start from just a little bit of context here. Quoting again, pretty much any quote I'm going to deliver will be from David's book here. Smile the Rise, Fallen, Resurrection of Brian Wilson. Much of this is an oral history of interviews with a lot of the band members and people in Brian's life at the time. Deliver a little bit of context here just to get us started. Some of this will be familiar to people who've been listening along all the way, but not everyone has heard every episode and I think this is a free one and some stuff only came out on Patreon, so we'll just set the table a little bit probing Gregory band member Brian Wilson Band said when the band first got together, the Brian Wilson band in 1999, we were not allowed to say the words Cabin Essence or Heroes and Villains or Surf's Up. Brian said, that reminds me of a bad time. I don't want to think about it, so please don't refer to those songs. So we didn't. Those titles didn't cross our lips. In between the US and UK Pet Sounds tours, there was a key moment in the resurrection of Smile. Scott Bennett's Christ party in 2000. Won't go into detail on that. Go listen to the interview that we did with David Leaf recently. He recounts that story in detail. But basically David's late wife Eva asked Brian to play Heroes and Villains. And he just decided out of the blue, let's do it, we're going to do it. And he had a great time and everyone got all excited and up to the point where when the Brian Wilson tribute salute took place A little while after that. Heroes and Villains was a part of that performance and it was a resounding success. I think we talked about how much we loved it. Probably the highlight of that whole. That whole thing.

[Evan]

Yeah. And he was just playing it on a whim, I guess. And then everyone was like, hey, why don't you do that? And he said, okay, yeah, easy. Which is just like. Well, yeah, yeah. I mean, it sounds like a miracle, but I think it's also worth noting that it's in the context of a huge outpouring of support for him that, you know, he probably felt safe and at ease in ways that he hadn't, and it just seemed possible when it hadn't before.

[Ian]

Yes. Yeah. Emotional security. That's the phrase that is used often in the documentary that David uses, Brian uses. And I think that is. Is a great way to describe where he was. Where he was at at this time.

[Evan]

He talks in the documentary about the early days. I mean, it goes into depth about. Well, not great depth, but it tells the whole story, basically leading up to Smile. And it's great to just. I had a great time just kind of revisiting that. Like, it. I got a feeling of like, our early days of doing this again, listening

[Ian]

to that, how long it has.

[Evan]

And there's a part where Brian talks about walking or like the way he. He walked in his early adolescence was like.

[Ian]

Oh, yeah, with the arm. Like, he would, like, kind of keep his arm up because he was, like, trying to reflexively defend against Murray, like beating on him or whatever.

[Evan]

Yeah. Beat up by his dad. And it took until high school for him to, as he put it, walk like a. Like, Like a man.

[Ian]

That's right. Not like a little fairy.

[Evan]

Well, he doesn't say that.

[Ian]

He doesn't say that, but that is.

[Evan]

You know, he said that another time.

[Ian]

Right. He's described himself as sounding or acting like a fairy.

[Evan]

Well, I just bring it up because it just feels like there's a parallel there. Like, it's a long standing dynamic of, like, Brian battling this security, that a sense of insecurity manifesting in a real physical way. Like he's. He's literally closing off, like walking around, like he's afraid of being hurt and then learning not to. And in this case, it's like a musical version of that was happening for many years. Like he couldn't think about it. He certainly couldn't play that music for fear of being hurt in a different

[Ian]

way or in the same way all over again.

[Evan]

I mean, in a different way Than getting beat up by his dad. Sure.

[Ian]

Yes.

[Evan]

Yeah.

[Ian]

I meant hurt in the way that he was hurt initially by the circumstances. That's right.

[Evan]

And it does a very good job of giving that context of, I think, a three dimensionality. Like, it's understandable how it happened when it's told this way. And not the simple version of, like, Brian and everyone else, like, hates Brian. It's. It's complex.

[Ian]

Yeah. I think it does a very good job of kind of shading, filling in the story with some much needed detail and shades of gray and dimensionality that go beyond a lot of the sensationalism or the kind of chalk. Just legends of these eras. Anyways, the Radio City thing goes. Great to return to the book here. Probin again, Gregory says we'd been secretly harboring our Smile obsessions. Hoping against hope that some of that stuff would see the light of day with this band. I barely remember the actual Radio City performance. I was probably gripped by nerves. All I remember was at the end, there was tremendous applause. And some people leapt to their feet, realizing the significance of the moment. This speaks directly to Brian. Realizing how much love and affection and interest there is in this material at this point. Paul Von Mertens, another member of Brian's band at this time. Says that probably was the genesis of completing the Smile record. It was like, there's a couple of amazing songs that we could do. If we have time to rehearse it and buckle down. And if Brian was willing to do it. And it did take some convincing. But that was the genesis of the idea. And a quote from our friend Van Dyke Parks a little bit, I do want to just emphasize. And you get this a lot in the. In the documentary. And this is maybe an element that I didn't realize quite as much before. You know, really digging into this and kind of trying to bone up on the history as much as possible. But, like, I guess one of my big takeaways from this whole thing is how much of what ends up being Brian Wilson Presents Smile. How much of that is a 2004 creation. There are pieces of music in there, certainly. And it's drawn from a lot of the work that was done in 1967. Obviously, you've got the heroes and villains. You've got Surf's up, you've got Good Vibrations in there. But like, so much of that record and the performance, the music, the everything was the product of new work being done by this, like, kind of trio. Brian Van Dyke and Darion. And that's the story that we're Gonna kind of rehearse here on the pod. But I guess I maybe didn't even realize before the documentary, the book and so on, how much of this was like legit. This is new shit. This is not them just like rescuing tapes and just kind of like stitching them together. This is like a full scale new construction circa 2004.

[Evan]

Because the original construction wasn't really constructed. It was like a bunch of. You could think of it kind of like a. Like a Disneyland where all of the rides and lands are just in a big warehouse ready to be placed around, but they haven't been. And they're. There's parts from the rides like mixed in with other rides. And like, it's not really a coherent place. It's not a coherent thing. Like, it's like. It's kind of like that. Or if you could make a sloppy, you know, metaphor, it's like this modular thing. That's how it was made. Like these little bits and pieces that Brian was actively stitching and soldering together. And that was such a dynamic process, sort of a chaotic process. He never had the time to let that whole thing actually play out in organic way. In the 60s. Like, it just. It would have taken. I think that there's a quote like that. It probably would have taken a year.

[Ian]

Another year.

[Evan]

Yeah, yeah. To actually let those pieces and these. These parts of the structures that were going to be smile for them to coalesce in the actual moment in that stream of creative work that was happening at that time. And so without that ever getting to fully happen, the best, the next best thing. And what this is in 2004 is an attempt to recapture something of that spirit. But I think more so, it's. It's a. An attempt to just put this stuff that does exist together in a way that highlights what it is. Without it, we'll never know what it originally might have been. But these pieces are given their moment in the way that it exists in 2004.

[Ian]

Yeah, yeah. You almost don't even want to. I don't even want to imagine that there ever was a design for the initial smile insofar as there was. It was locked up in Brian's brain and he wasn't able to ultimately execute on it. And so a lot of work was done certainly, but yeah, it was not formulated into a finished coherence piece. And so the ultimate record ends up drawing from a lot of that work that's done. But the actual concept, construction and presentation and assembly, that's all like new shit. 2004. Shit. Brian Van Dyke, Darien shit.

[Evan]

It's like the thing that's happening with. I don't know if you've heard about this Magnificent Ambersons thing.

[Ian]

They're trying to AI it or something, right? Because the initial version that Orson directed, RKO chopped up and bastardized, they cut

[Evan]

off, like, 45 minutes and threw in the happy ending.

[Ian]

I don't think footage. They're gonna AI it, though.

[Evan]

I have complex feelings about it because the way they're doing it seems. It feels to me like kind of like the spirit of what we're talking about here. Like, the way they're doing that is they are actually having actors acting like. And they're using this. I don't know, but I feel like the. I'm curious to see, like, what the technology can do because it's so, like, we're at a point where it can do stuff that is genuinely, like, miraculous if applied.

[Ian]

Yeah, I mean, I'll watch it, sure. But, like, I guess the difference between that and something like Smile. And I get what you're saying there is there. There are similarities there. But the difference, I think, to me, ultimately, is that, like, the author himself is still very much present and directing Smile at the end of the day, you know, in 2004, versus Orson Welles has been dead for 40 or 50 years or something. And so it might be an interesting exercise. And like I said, I'll certainly watch it, but you'd want to take that with a grain of salt as to. Is this an actual accurate representation of what Orson's vision might have been versus what we get with Brian Wilson presents Smile. Yeah, that is an accurate vision of what Brian intended, because Brian.

[Evan]

That's. Of Brian in that moment.

[Ian]

Exactly.

[Evan]

Decades later, speaking of Orson Welles, there's the other example that's almost a better one to bring up is the Other side of the Wind. Have you ever seen that?

[Ian]

Yeah. Yeah. They.

[Evan]

You know, that that is like this, in a way. I mean.

[Ian]

Yeah, I think that's a little bit closer.

[Evan]

You've got the. It is true that, like, Orson Welles himself isn't there, but Brian Wilson from the 60s isn't there here. And, like, what he was, who he was in that time is a totally different thing than who he is later. I mean, everyone's always constantly changing, but there's a kind of force that he was tapped into at that time that, like, I don't even know if there's. The examples of it existing in history are slim when it comes to popular music anyway, of someone in this manic creative state that is also able to have like the. They. Someone who is that way and has the power and ability to direct the, like, armies of people basically to play and construct this in real time. Like, he's like a. Yeah, like a crazy Howard Hughes. Maybe. Crazy. Okay, maybe not the word, but no,

[Ian]

I think that that, that is actually. That this is a good segue. So let me. Let me quote from. From our different Van Dyke. There's so much brilliant Van Dyke just Soliloquiz book. I just love to read his language on the page, even when he's literally just speaking extemporaneously.

[Evan]

Especially. I mean, he's just the greatest.

[Ian]

Duh, man. He says. There was something about Brian's character, his artistic integrity that appealed to me. And it's the same thing that appealed to me about Van Gogh. What made Van Gogh go was this schizophrenic state of mind. It's there. It's become more of an entertainment and public information. We've all seen Easy Rider and we've ridden beyond it. I don't really know what he means by that. There's much to speak about in theater that shows artists following their madness in a way, and that takes a willingness to be viewed as mad. It happened to Ravel at the premiere of Bolero when a woman stood up and said, you're crazy, in the Paris Opera House. And Ravel turned around to a stunned house and said, you're right, I am crazy. So you have to put that aside if you want to pursue something, because there's no shelter in the arts. There's no shelter. You have to be willing to explore with your medium in any way that you can. It takes courage. You can't start by wondering what somebody thinks about the fact that you believe in something. You just hope that your powers of expression infect the participant, your audience, or your mate in a positive way.

[Evan]

Well said Van Dyke Parks.

[Ian]

Indeed. So I think that that, like, crazy, right? Like, I think that, like, you do have to kind of be crazy to try to pull Smile off in the first place. Yeah, but that's not like a negative thing.

[Evan]

No, but there is an aspect to it where I wonder if the way he was, the state he was in. And maybe, I mean, maybe this is wrong to speculate, but maybe he wasn't ever going to be able to finish it. Even, like, with infinite time, like, there seemed to be an aspect creeping in of a. An. A kind of grabbing from everything all at once. Like his. His mind was expanding faster than he could follow it. Like, I don't know what it would have been like for them. It might have been like a 10 year project. You know, this, this thing, it has no precedent, so it's hard to like, look at it and be like, yeah, well, it might have taken, you know, a year more to finish it. Like it could have taken the rest of his life and never been finished. There are works of art like that, like, you know, unfinished manuscripts, like people just writing for their entire lives and it never gets done.

[Ian]

Yeah, I mean, it can happen. Sagrada Familia. It can, absolutely. And like, there's almost a sense of, I think that like, at the moment, in the time, at the time, it might have been a tragedy. It was a tragedy, certainly. And you know, what happened to Brian just on a personal, mental, physical level was a tragedy. But like, I think in the grand scheme of things, over a longer period of time, and this is, I think, part of what makes a project, you know, like, why looking at all this shit in context, piece by piece by piece, painstakingly making our way through the entire, like, that's why this becomes valuable, is because, like, I think over time we might have like, everything worked out for the best with Smile. Not happy because, like we got Smiley Smile. I was just listening to that again the other night cooking dinner just to refresh my memory after I've been listening to, you know, Brian Wilson present Smile. That record is so radical and off the wall and extraordinary. Just like, I mean, I loved it for years. We talked about how much we loved it with AV Thayer, but like, I just coming back to it at the end of all this, I'm floored all over again by how extraordinary that record is and brilliant and fully realized. It's completely just made up of these constituent parts of Smile demade into this little like weirdo, you know, Seeds and Stems pop, you know, outsider pop album. So we got that and then we get the whole enchilada 35 years later. And so like, I think we're almost. The world is richer for Smile, never having been created in the first place or finished in the first place, because we got something nearly as good in Smiley Smile and then we got the real ass thing with Smile itself. Like it's, it's. It didn't work out at the time. But because these careers with great artists are measured not in months or weeks or days, but in years, in decades, in centuries nearly. That's. That's what it's all about.

[Evan]

Smiley Smile is very good. I, I might like it more than Brian Wilson presents Smile.

[Ian]

But why you gotta pit two bad bitches against one another?

[Evan]

Why indeed?

[Ian]

So basically the concept for the Smile, you know, Brian Wilson presents Smile comes from the Royal Festival hall over there in London. Glenn Max, who worked there, says, I was invited to take over the contemporary culture program at the Royal festival hall in 2001, where I oversaw the Meltdown Festival and concert programming. I was in Los Angeles when Brian did Pet Sounds at the Hollywood Bowl. It was just the most compelling thing I'd ever seen. I went back to London and I said, why isn't this happening in London? Because I was well aware that Brian Wilson means much more in the UK than the us. Neil Warnock, a lawyer or something involved, says Festival hall had a budget to actually bring in something that was, if you will, artistic. Something like Brian, who was a complete innovator, somebody who had actually created a style of writing and a style of music that wasn't anywhere else, was absolutely a real fit for what the Royal Festival hall wanted to do. Without their funding and without their support, it never would have been possible because the finances of putting Smile together were vast. And I think that, I guess that's, that's an interesting component of this, is that like you wonder, I have wondered at least, like why in 2004 was, did this happen? Like, you know, how did the stars align? Did Brian just wake up one day and decide this is going to happen? And like there is a little bit of that, but also like people just kind of came to him and said, hey, we'll pay for this if you can really put this together and make it happen. And so thank God that someone did that. But it's kind of a funny way to get to this magical fulfillment of a decades long journey is just like the right guy was working at the right festival presenter in London and said, hey, we'll throw a bunch of money at this project.

[Evan]

Many such cases, yeah, you know, you

[Ian]

need patrons in the arts just like we need patrons on the old patreon.com head over there and subscribe, folks. Lots of good stuff coming on. So that's where Smile comes from. Brian just kind of announces it casually. He's over in London like before, a year before Smile and is just talking to reporters. He's at a restaurant or something, out to dinner. He's talking about the new album that he's putting together at this time. Getting in over my head. And then he just sort of slips in nonchalantly. We're gonna finish off the Smile album after that. And just like the crowd is taken aback, everyone's gasping and, you know, not sure whether they should take him seriously or if this is actually gonna end up happening. And then, sure enough, you know, it actually does. And it gets announced shortly thereafter for premiere February 20th, I believe, 2004, nearly 22 years to the day as we record this. Actually the 22 year anniversary, 22nd year anniversary of the performance of Smile. And the album, of course, is not actually recorded until later and then released much later than that. You know, anniversaries are not our specialty here. Van Dyke. Van Dyke has a lot to say about this. I think we both feared that the consequences of any further involvement might be as painful as the last ones. There's a sense of trepidation from everyone involved going into this project, Van Dyke says, but in fact, ultimately that doesn't bother a person whose mind is on the job, whose shoulder is at the wheel, whose eye is on the sparrow. That's what we do. Can't you just hear him saying that? Eye on the sparrow. My first reaction on hearing that Brian was going to open up the can called Smile, go back and look at the project and perform in person. I thought, well, that's incredible. That's a wonderful thing for him to do. And then I waited. I heard about it in the press, the national press, and I thought, I know he's going to get around to calling me. He'll need my take on it. Did he? Would he? This is David editorializing a little bit for Van Dyke. Quote, that was a very long wait after the announcement for months. Brian didn't want anybody's take on it. It seems that more than anything, he was trying not to think about the work that lay ahead. Because when he did, it wasn't with joy. Van Dyke, quoted again here, says, I think Smile has, by the force of the music and by the adequacy of the words, by the power of the visual images that Frank Holmes put into play. That's the artist of the COVID art, Smile. I think it has great potential as an entertainment object. But I'll be damn sure before I do any more work on it that there will be a release. I don't like the idea of saying complete or incomplete. I think those words are too harsh for no other reason. I think that because they're preemptive blows against my artistic freedom. And if Mr. Wilson might agree with me, I rail against things that suggest losing my artistic freedom or his, in this case ours. We can do anything we want in a town where nobody really Knows nothing. And that's the truth. I don't really know what he's getting at there, but again, I just kind of like to hear him prattle on there. Brian, I think, is just like. It almost seems like he got into this before he really understood what he was getting into. You know, the fact that he just lets this thing sit for so long, it gets months after this gets announced that he just doesn't do any work on making Smile a reality. It's just sitting there and no one's doing anything. And people are just assuming, like, all right, this is gonna come together somehow at some point. And then, fortunately, the right man is in the right place at the right time. That's our friend Darian Cynajo, who said. When the announcement was first made, it was probably a mixture of wariness and excitement that I felt. I remember thinking, how are we going to pull this off? Could it actually be done? Well, I just had a lot of skepticism, probably because of the mystique surrounding the album. It was almost too sacred. And I thought, why try to do this now? Given the examples of revisitations of classic territory done by others, movie remakes or whatnot, which tend to fall short, There were so many things that could go wrong. And I guess that's like, maybe worth remarking on here. Just, like, emphasizing, you know, like, this could have been a. Just a fucking disaster going back to the. Like, even if it got made, it could have just been shitty. It could have just been no good. Like, we just spent 90 minutes the other day going on and on about getting in over my head, which is just, like, kind of a mess from top to bottom. It has a couple, you know, bright spots here and there's. But, like, that album was being made contemporaneously with Smile, so, like, clearly Brian had it in him to sort of whiff at this point. But obviously that's not what ends up happening. I just. I guess it's worth emphasizing, like, how ballsy it is to even try to make this happen. Not only just to try to execute it, but, like, once you get it up on stage and make it happen, like, it's also got to be good. It's got to be worth doing. Like, it's. It's kind of crazy how much of a, like, high wire act this really was.

[Evan]

Yeah, I think that Van Dyke actually refers to it as that or a trapeze or something, you know, without.

[Ian]

Yeah, there's no net. Exactly.

[Evan]

Which is. I mean, it is an unbelievable amount of personal pressure, artistic pressure. To put on yourself. Like, I can't even think of another example that feels as intense where this thing that's not just incomplete, but forbidden, like, locked away in your mind and locked from your soul for decades, and now you're just gonna perform it.

[Ian]

Yeah, it's just like. It's like devil music to Brian. You know, it's like. It's, like, infused with this eldritch, horrific power that manifests as these auditory hallucinations telling him that they're going to kill him. And he's like, yeah, I'm gonna get up and sing these songs.

[Evan]

It was too powerful then. I mean, that's the thing that I think is worth really honing in on, is, like, what Smile was when it was being made was something that was so beyond even, like, the. The. The most. The furthest that they'd ever gone. It was. It nowhere near what was happening here. Like, it was absolutely understandable, like, that someone like Mike Love would hear this and be, like, flabbergasted and terrified and furious. Because even someone who was really into Pet Sounds might feel that way. Like, it's not like that even. It's not like a continuation of Pet Sounds. It is a totally different thing. And it has a level of freedom, like a level of creative freedom is happening while it's being conceived. That is as free as it gets, as. As open as it gets, as deep as it gets, and as weird as it gets. And so it's a little bit interesting. I mean, to see that thing then get packaged and completed in a fashion. It feels like it might undercut. Like, if you don't know what the real story was like and you just encounter it this way. I don't know. The wildness of it, of what Smile was. It's like the real essence of it.

[Ian]

Yeah. Darion has a great description of that, kind of along these same lines and how it relates to Pet Sounds or how it doesn't relate to Pet Sounds, he said. I think the record's Smile is even more spiritual than Pet Sounds. In many ways, it's Brian being about as funny as he can be. Like a walking paradox. Childlike, yet at the same time, extremely complex. So much happy and sad going on at the same time. A lot of that manifests in a melancholy beauty throughout Pet Sounds. But with Smile, it's like he went even further out in both directions, inward and outward, even more childlike and even more complex. And I think that in a lot of ways, that's Brian reaching for the core of his. His existence. And I think that's really well said. Is like Pet Sounds is this brilliant sort of synthesis distillation of childlike, you know, kind of excitement and joy and this onset of adulthood and melancholy and, you know, the sense of loss and nostalgia and dreams that aren't going to manifest. And it kind of comes together in this, like, perfectly realized, executed, singular package. And Smile is like. It's dealing with those same themes, but in a sort of a sloppier kind of messier manner.

[Evan]

In a much more abstract manner.

[Ian]

Abstract and brash and bright and loud and, you know, just bigger, you know, more just out there.

[Evan]

Further. Yeah. Just blown out. And Tony Asher was his partner on Pet Sounds, who helped to make these things feel grounded, these ideas give them like a grounding in reality. And he was like the production designer. He's like Jack Fisk for that album. He made it feel like a real world. And it was amazing. He is an amazing. It's an amazing achievement.

[Ian]

It's significant that he was an ad man, you know, a jingle writer, basically.

[Evan]

But also a communicator.

[Ian]

Exactly. Kind of leaning on the same skills that, like, Lou had at the Pickwick Song Factory. And then on the follow up, Here Comes fucking. Of all the people that could walk into this bar and sit down with Brian Wilson and start writing songs, it's Van Dyke motherfucking Parks.

[Evan]

Well, he is. Yeah. It's the opposite of grounding. It is. How do we.

[Ian]

Jingle writer is not how you would describe.

[Evan]

No, he's a. He's a poet. He's a pure poet. And so how do you make this poetic music genuinely poetic? You've just let the lyrics be as free and crazy and out there as the music can. Can suggest. And then you're just like. Once you've decided that you're not even going to throw that bone to the listener of a typical or even generally prosaic style of songwriting or narrative. Once that's out the window, it's just like, you're off. Like, it's out. It's uncharted territory. Nobody can even critique you in a way. Like, you are not playing by rules or. Or even in competition with anyone. It's not like this album, whatever it was to be Smile, was not, like, in competition with the Beatles. If it's in competition with the Beatles, I think of it as, like, it's in competition with, like, the very last few seconds of sergeant Pepper. Like, you know, the. With the most abstract. Yeah. With Day in the. Like. So. Yeah, Day in the Life, I think, is the Closest point of. If you could be, like, what. What is their rivalry at that point?

[Ian]

Like, well, and Day in the Life importantly. Brilliant, obviously. And the end of it in particular, extraordinary. But that is just one song on Sergeant Pepper. Like, that's. That's still got, like, when I'm 64 on it, you know, and, like, Brian's making a record out of, like, the whole thing is made out of the last 10 seconds of day in the

[Evan]

Life, but it's sort of not. I mean, like, because sergeant Pepper does have the thing of the opening sort of conceit. Like, there. There is that framing device that only exists at the beginning of the sergeant Pepper Lonely Hearts Club Band. And, like, the sounds like it's on a stage. And I feel like having Day in the Life be what it is is in on that record, which also features these conceptual and very theatrical flourishes. Like, that song is several songs stitched together very, very much in the way that Smile is. And I don't know that there was any actual direct knowledge of what the other was doing at the time, but there was. That is a fact. Like, what. What that is, what Day in Life is, is very similar to the kind of modular way of attaching songs to each other, song parts to each other, that Brian is, like, innovating with, experimenting with, driving himself to, like, the edge with during this time.

[Ian]

Yeah, if Smile had been realized, it would have been Day in the Life to, you know, times 10. You know, just a much more. Not to say it's better necessarily, but just a more. Just bigger and more challenging concept. I would relate. I mean, Day in the Life is a great call because obviously Peppers and Smile are kind of intertwined just historically, but, like, the second side of Abbey Road, I would say, is maybe the closest thing to the way that. Like that. And even that, though, is still only. Whatever it is. 15, 20 minutes. Unbelievable. Like, probably my favorite single side of a Beatles record. Not that that's a radical statement to be making, but even that, at the very end of the Beatles, is still just a portion of what that Brian had envisioned Smile as. Again, he wasn't able to actually execute on it at the time, at least. Let's get back to 2004. Brian and Darian are going to start working together in September 2003. Literally, just like five months before this thing is on stage in London and happening in reality. They're sitting down. Just begin. Just start on page one, which is kind of crazy. Darian describes this a little bit. He says, when I started talking to Brian, about the music. He really wasn't into it. But then I'd say, well, I'm coming over next week at this time. And he just looked straight at me and say, okay, Classic Brian. And Darian says, to break the ice, it was all about, hey, Brian, we're not trying to finish an album here. We're just thinking about how do we perform this music in a way that it would flow, how can we present this music so that it's cohesive? And I think that made him feel a little better. Darian explains the challenge he and Brian faced was that in order to present the Smile music live, it was about finding some sort of flow, thematically creative, some sort of approach. And the Smile recordings from the 60s were, as we know, fragmented. We don't know what Brian would have done with them all. So to find some sort of order to all of this, I loaded all the completed and nearly completed Smile music and Smile Fragments onto my ibook. I put them in a timeline with an audio program and I brought it over to Brian's and I sat down with him and I had them all on a list and we started listening to different sections, different segments. Brian was a little hesitant, as you can imagine. So I just started putting some pieces that I knew were very musically and thematically similar together. And Brian would tell me, yeah, yeah, that was supposed to go with that. That was supposed to go there, or no, no, no, that didn't belong in that. That wasn't a heroes and villains type thing. And we just kind of worked in that way for a little while. I was just moving pieces around with digital technology. It was really convenient. And you get a little bit of this in the actual documentary. I think it might be them reenacting things a little bit. But Darian literally just does have a MacBook or I guess this time it was called an ibook with Audacity open and a bunch of Smile tracks in it. And he's just kind of dragging and dropping them and comparing them and figuring out how one relates to another. And Brian is just recalling through 37 years of sense memory. Yeah, that went together with that or. No, that didn't. It's kind of a. I don't know. I like how sort of DIY and like Loaf, like, there's a lo fi aspect of them, like just kind of taking all these chopped up song things and fucking around with them in, like just basic audio software on a laptop and spinning Smile out of that.

[Evan]

It's not lo fi when you consider that when it was actually being Made. It was like little pieces of tape.

[Ian]

Tape, yeah, exactly.

[Evan]

And it was like they would just be playing like one little like 30 second loop of music over and over. Like Brian just being like, what do you think of this? And then playing another one and then putting those to get like literally stitching them together. It's remarkably easy when you think about just dragging it around. Like, it's almost too easy.

[Ian]

Technology is good for something. Oftentimes not so much. And increasingly every new piece of technology seems to be good for less and less. But some things, audio editing software, for instance, as we know as podcasters. I'm okay with that.

[Evan]

Yeah, I don't have any problem with that.

[Ian]

So just Brian and Darian fucking around on the laptop and trying to figure out how to put pieces together. So on. Van Dyke is not part of the picture yet. And then all of a sudden, let's hear Darian tell it. At one point, we were listening to a track called do youo Like Worms? And I got to ask Brian, probably the ultimate. Asking the ultimate Beach Boys fan dream question, which was, Brian, was there anything else to this? And he kind of looked at me. Typically, Brian will say, no, he'll choose the quick and easy answer. But this time it was nice because he was comfortable enough and we were on a roll. And I had asked him, is there anything else to this? And he said, yeah, there was some Indian chanting. There was a melody. Basically, Darion asked him to try to recall it in the background. He's already gotten an old piece of lyrics from the Smile sessions. David Leif had actually given Darion, like, an original lyric sheet for Do Like Worms that had additional Indian chanting written out on it or whatever. And so he knew that there was actually additional material. And he was kind of leading Brian along to see if he could get him to recall it and bring it back. And so they end up pulling that sheet out and looking at it. And this is written in Van Dyke. Van Dyke Parks literally wrote this. You know, he wrote it. And they get hung up on a word. They just don't know what one of the words is. This is one of the best scenes in the documentary. They recount this, and so they can't figure it out. And Brian just says, maybe Van Dyke would know. He gets up out of his chair, walks over the phone, picks up the phone, starts dialing. Darion is thinking, who is he calling? And then all of a sudden he says, hi, Van Dyke, this is Brian. You know the song do youo Like Worms? Then he starts asking about the Lyrics. And I could tell that Van Dyke was completely caught off guard. This is Darion saying this. They faxed. They faxed a copy of the lyrics over. And then, of course, sure enough, the word is Indians, hence the Indian chanting. And so that's Van Dyke's entry into the project. The next day, Darion comes back for, you know, their little one on one session. And Brian says, hey, Van Dyke's gonna be here in 15 minutes. And Darion was just kind of floored. And that's the trio there. And you get some of this footage then in the documentary. This is some of my favorite stuff. Darion and Brian and Van Dyke just hanging out together. Like, literally sitting on the floor, just, like, working together. It says Darion cam in David's documentary. It seems like just such a great. Like they're just hanging. They're having a great time. Brian is just like. He says this. This is fucking great or something. He' like, really animated at one point.

[Evan]

Yeah.

[Ian]

It's just the three of them just, like, hanging out, hashing things out on the floor of Brian's, like, presumably cavernous Malibu beach house. Or maybe he's living in the hills of Tarzana or something at this time. I like it. I love it.

[Evan]

Can you get some words to it? You really can?

[Darian]

Yeah. Come on, man. I didn't come to sit on the bench, Coach. I came to to sit on the floor. I came to sit on the floor. We both feared that the consequences of any further involvement might be as painful as the last ones.

[Evan]

I could tell there's a little bit of anxiety with him. You know, he's a little nervous. Is it hot in here?

[Ian]

In me?

[Darian]

Is it hot as hell?

[Evan]

Is it hot as hell in here?

[Ian]

Or is it me?

[Evan]

It really is a miss.

[Ian]

Yeah, I can do that.

[Darian]

I can learn that. Yeah. I was immediately very surprised and pleased about how much life force was in the music. We're running on 12 cylinders here.

[Ian]

Yes.

[Evan]

I'm running on none.

[Ian]

You're doing great.

[Darian]

Good work.

[Evan]

I think what you've done is very, very creative. And I think that people are gonna get the fuck off on it.

[Darian]

I think it's a feature.

[Evan]

I think it's gonna get people off. It's a feature movie.

[Darian]

I think it's an animated movie. I do. I think it's an animated feature movie.

[Evan]

Thank you, man.

[Ian]

I love you.

[Evan]

Everybody loves you. Everyone loves you.

[Darian]

I love you very much. I just want to do good work.

[Ian]

Seemed like they just sort of picked

[Evan]

up where they left off. All right.

[Darian]

Lots of love, Darian. Thank you.

[Evan]

Bye.

[Ian]

Bye.

[Evan]

Bye, bye. Wow, Darian. That's that now. That took my.

[Ian]

Blew my fucking mind.

[Evan]

Yeah. Just like Van Dyke suddenly over there

[Ian]

for the first time in, like, exactly 37 years. And there's no TP this time. There's no sandbox filled with dog shit and dog piss. It's just, you know, it's a Tony Soprano house in the Valley somewhere. So they're. They're working at it together and they get into it and then they start making. They start making some magic happen. Van Dyke said, I heard new music and I heard a lot of it was vaguely familiar and it had no lyrics attached to it. So I offered to bring in some more words for Brian to hammer into shape. And I'm very happy. Happy with them. I think it's gained more cohesion in the process. I think it sounds more cohesive and not quite linear, but a beautiful set of impressions about America's manifest destiny and still with great. Kind of a cartoon consciousness, which I think is signature to the piece. Small piece of work that was particularly an American impression. Van Dyck, I think, describes this in the. In the documentary also. I forget when exactly, but he describes it as like a cartoon or like an animation. Like he's envisioning it, I think, as like his own, like, Disney animated movie.

[Evan]

Like a Fantasia.

[Ian]

It is like Fantasia. Yeah, exactly. Boy, man. Someone should do Smile as Fantasia.

[Evan]

As Fantasia. That's.

[Ian]

Let's get the AI on that. That sounds cool.

[Evan]

Ugh. Let's not get the AI on that. Let's get the AI far away from that.

[Ian]

Van Dyke continues, unless you're a Presbyterian, there's no way to predict the future. Beethoven said that. He said, I have no idea what's going on ahead of me. I said somebody praised him for some of his ideas. So the idea of a concept record never occurred to me. Absolutely not. I thought the medium for this project Smile, was animation. That's the door I came in through. When I first worked in town, my first job was for the Bare Necessities in the Jungle Book. Yeah, yeah, I think we've talked about that before. He was brought on. Yeah. To I think, arrange the Bare Necessities for Disney in, like, 1963. I want to say that's a good movie. Jungle Book.

[Evan]

Yeah, it's good.

[Ian]

I can't say I've seen that one in probably about 30 years at this point, but I'll take your word for it.

[Evan]

I hadn't maybe ever seen it until recently. It's good. It's a Good one.

[Ian]

Sure. You ever go on the Jungle Cruise at Disneyland?

[Evan]

Of course.

[Ian]

Yeah, that's. That's like one of the shittier rides there. But, like, it's also. It's charming. Yeah. I mean, it's not fun and like, it. There's obviously. They probably have redone it and made

[Evan]

it, like, gotten rid of, I mean, decades ago.

[Ian]

The tribal characters and the.

[Evan]

Yeah, there's a lot that has changed, but a lot. It's the same. It's a classic.

[Ian]

Yeah, no, of course, that and like the Tom Sawyer island with the ferry boat and stuff.

[Evan]

That is gone.

[Ian]

That's gone. Oh, did they.

[Evan]

Island is gone.

[Ian]

Jesus. Did they make that into the Star wars land? Is that what's happening there?

[Evan]

I don't know, but they. I don't think you can't go on that anymore or they've changed it.

[Ian]

Oh, that was so cool.

[Evan]

Well, that was one of the only parts of Disneyland that was kind of like just open end. It was just like a place like a park.

[Ian]

Basically. Just went over there and just walked around on these trails and, like, could

[Evan]

find little nooks and crannies and little. Little, like things in caves and it was cool. Yeah. I don't know what it is now, but it's gone.

[Ian]

Rest in peace, Van Dyke. When I went back to work on adding a few lyrical informalities, like more of a section on Blue Hawaii, we'd already gone to Hawaii with the Hawaiian language in Smile, the hymn of Thanksgiving. Mahalo, Lule. We already had that thank you song in there, and I thought it was better that we should just go ahead and start investigating what that was all about. It was the last stop on the move west, one step beyond Horace Greeley. Do you know who Horace Greeley is?

[Evan]

Of course. But why don't we tell the listeners.

[Ian]

I don't know who Horace Greeley is. I was hoping you could fill me in.

[Evan]

He's a former United States representative.

[Ian]

Aha.

[Evan]

New York.

[Ian]

The New York Tribune, right. Newspaper editor and publisher. That's right. Okay. One step beyond Horace Greeley and with all the missionaries to their last position, which was in Hawaii. And that was fun to do.

[Evan]

Hawaii.

[Ian]

Hawaii. Thank you. That was fun to do. And also to introduce those naughty pirates. I really thought it was time that we started picking on pirates.

[Evan]

Pirates. I gotta confess, I don't know that there was pirates in that. There's a lot going on in Smile that I think is maybe easier to understand if you were there making it.

[Ian]

I think you can hear some pirate shit. In Blue Hawaii.

[Evan]

I'm sure you can, but it's like you can hear stuff in the Pirates of the Caribbean ride. There's like so much going on, you know, there's like so many little background noises and cues and recordings and gags that you have to go through it a lot of times to actually get it all. That's the other thing. It's like. I mean, Disneyland keeps coming up somehow.

[Ian]

It's animation and it's Disney movies, and it's also Disneyland.

[Evan]

It's like a ride specifically feels like a dark ride. Like a very.

[Ian]

And they should make a Smile Land at Disneyland. Get rid of close down Star Wars Land. Let's just get the Smile Land up there.

[Evan]

Yeah. What would the Beach Boys theme park be like if it had, like. If we had it?

[Ian]

Oh, I mean. Well, we would have been designed it. The Beach Boys theme park would have been the like, California California Adventure section of California Adventure exhibit. But I think they've turned that into like Toy Story Land or something now.

[Evan]

Yeah, they still have that, but it used to be more like vici. I mean, I think we've talked about this at length, certainly, but yeah, they used to play like a calliope version or like Oregon version, I think, of. Of California Girls piping in, like pretty much. That was like the signature.

[Ian]

Yeah, yeah.

[Evan]

That was kind of like Beach Boys Land.

[Ian]

Speaking of which, I love. There's a. Just a little snippet in the documentary from earlier in the section, you know, before you get to the 2004 stuff, where we're like narrating Brian' growth as an artist leading up to Pet Sounds and stuff. And he talks about taking LSD for the first time. And he's sitting down on a piano and he's just playing that intro to California Girls. Doo doo doo. He says he's just sitting there. He takes LSD for the first time and he just plays that one sequence for half an hour, basically, and then he figures out the rest of the song. I love his just fixation on four seconds of melody. Whether it's that or Ding dang or shortening bread or whatever.

[Evan]

Yeah, it's like a fractal. Like it contains all of the rest of everything.

[Darian]

Right.

[Evan]

Like. Or a hologram.

[Ian]

Like it's like the color white, basically. It's the whole rainbow is in there, but it's just white.

[Evan]

It's all in like a little boogie woogie piano. Yeah.

[Ian]

That's the entire history of recorded music for Brian Wilson.

[Evan]

It's the entire existence of the universe is in there. That's what Smile is like. It's like teasing out just, just the. The entire history of the world and everything on it out of like that out of D. It's like if you just were like, well, how can I start there and then end up just having like Moby Dick, like written in song form

[Ian]

and you know, they pulled it off, considering how dirt.

[Evan]

They didn't pull it off.

[Ian]

Well, they ended up pulling it off, you know.

[Evan]

Yeah, it just took.

[Ian]

Just took a little extra time. Took a little bit longer than one year like Brian was estimating initially. Considering how hurt he and Brian were by Smile's non completion, Van Dyke notes that it was easy to get back to work on this project. Everyone has such a proprietary attitude about it. A lot of people write me letters and emails and tell me how it all should be sequenced. Well, I have no idea. I haven't listened to it in 36 years and I couldn't care less. What I care about is that the singer be able to deliver his song. That's all that matters to me. This is a very touching quote to me, it's Brian Wilson that matters to me. The project itself, Smile to me is the residue of a real desire of some things that music can speak to, like in this case, loyalty and friendship and the general humanities, confirmational things. Being able to laugh at what concerns us, to be able to present music on different levels that can be taken on different levels with words that can either be relevant or not apply at all. And that like that to me speaks to one of the strengths of the documentary and one of the most rewarding aspects of this whole thing. And why I'm so glad that we've spent the amount of time we have with Van Dyke himself is because, like, he's always sort of a side character in the Smile story, you know, Brian is the protagonist of the story, rightly or wrongly. Probably rightly. But like this had an impact on Van Dyke too. Like he's brought in as the wonderkid, like, you know, magician to realize Brian Wilson's dreams with words on page and like he's just shunted out just unceremoniously by these, you know, guys who obviously are important and worthy in their own right, but obviously are not giving him. They're not very generous and understanding towards him. And he goes on to make the most of his career certainly. But it was a damning, damaging, difficult thing for him too. And I think that the testament to their working relationship, their bond, Brian and Van Dyke's bond, that you End up getting out of smile in 2004 is like. It's so touching to me the way that the two of them are able to continue to work together after so long and there's still so much kind of love and warmth and affection between the two of them. It brought a tear to my eye when I was watching the movie the other day.

[Evan]

There's a thing that Van Dyke says in particular where he's like, recounting the moments or the time of it actually all falling apart and saying. There's no doubt that I'm paraphrasing, but, like, I have no doubt that Brian thought that I was strong enough. I was like a big enough person to sort of be the doorman while these people were coming in and fighting over the. The project and fighting over the. What is allowed in art. Basically, like the actual battle between the conservative side and the pure freedom. And he says, he, he. I just wasn't. I was not powerful enough to be that intermediary. I mean, it is an impossible task to ask of anyone to be like, right in the middle of the crossfire of the commercial pressure and understandable just for, you know, meat and potatoes music. People forget, like, the. The complexity of Pet Sounds and how that was a big deal, you know, to blew people's minds. Like. Like this is asking people who are in the business of business to suddenly be in the position of being like a. A midwife for an impossible artwork. It's. And there's Van Dyke, like, who has to be there playing both sides, like, appeasing both sides. It's impossible.

[Ian]

Yeah. And he, like, he. He ultimately, he has to be the one to take the. Take it on the chin, you know. Again, Brian has his own, you know, struggles with it. But like, everyone else gets what they want out of this. At the end of the day, the record, you know, gets shelved, falls apart. They end up doing an even weirder record in place of Smile, you know, So I guess be careful what you wish for in that case.

[Evan]

Well, not even weirder, but I mean, Smiley Smile.

[Ian]

Smile is pretty.

[Evan]

It's weird, but it's not as weird as Smile, I don't think.

[Ian]

I don't know. I mean, I think that, like. I think Smile, if we imagine whatever Smile might have meant, like, I think that would have been an easier sell for many people in the Beach Boys audience than what Smiley Smile ended up being.

[Evan]

No way.

[Ian]

Because it's so weird. And like, the beauty and the fully realized arrangements and these extraordinary vocal harmonies and stuff, like, that's Just all kind of out the window on Smiley Smile. You get a little bit of that on Heroes and. And Good Vibrations, obviously, which stick out like two sore thumbs on that record. But the rest of that thing. But that's why it feels pad and. And Getting Hungry and the original like vegetables and stuff.

[Evan]

Those are songs and that's what Smile as we understand it, it doesn't have. Like there is no way on earth. I don't think that people would have been interested in this as you couldn't play it on the radio period. Like it's. Whereas there's things that, you know, feasibly you could on Smiley Smile. It. It is the compromised vision. I think it's just an. A great vision of something on its. Unto itself. I love what it is and in some ways I. I am a little bit more. It's just maybe familiarities the reason. But I have great affection for it. But yeah, Smile. I don't. I don't know that it was. It's very difficult to understand. Well, I mean it's. It's not hard to understand but like Brian Wilson Smile, that's what it should always have been. It should have been Brian Wilson's Smile.

[Ian]

Right.

[Evan]

It's crazy that it was. Was Brian Wilson. That it was the Beach Boys name still potentially attached to this like that. That happened to be just like the. The conditions. But it. It really ought to have been something that at some point in this process someone was like hold the phone. This is Brian doing something that is. Only brought it only he can even. Even understand. It's totally invisible to us. Even the people making it, they were just handed these tiny little minimalist parts to play and those would get strung together later and they would then hear what they just played, what context it ends up being in. Like it's right. I think there's a Scott Walker record. There's. There's actually. I think a lot of them that.

[Ian]

There are a lot of Scott Walker

[Evan]

records, you're right, that have that approach where he just gave musicians. You play this and they don't know what the song is. They don't know what anyone else is playing.

[Ian]

Yeah, it's like all the blind men feeling the elephant, basically.

[Evan]

Exactly.

[Ian]

Yeah. I mean, you're right about all that. I think as we talked about whenever it was a long time ago, going through all the Pet sound stuff and the Smile stuff, like that door had already been closed basically. Like remember with Pet sounds like Caroline Noe had been issued as a Brian Wilson single. Brian Wilson, Caroline. No, it's there on the 7 inch. I have a copy in my record room. And he walked right up to that precipice and said, this is Brian Wilson music. This is not Beach Boys music. And then he walked it back. And so I think. I think at that point, by that time, he's already made that decision. And so he could have made the other decision at that time. And Pet Sounds could have been the Brian Wilson album Smile then obviously would have been the Brian Wilson follow up there. But once you've already committed at that point to this is Beach Boys shit, I'm doing it with the group. I'm doing it with my brothers. I can't let them down. That, I think, explains a lot of the. A lot of what ends up following. Let's hear Brian describe. We've heard a lot from Darien, we've heard a lot from Van Dyke. Great detailed information about this very emotionally fulfilling and challenging but richly rewarding experience for the three of them. Presumably Brian will have similarly insightful things to say. When Darien and Van Dyke came over, I knew we were into something pretty special. The process was Van Dyke would come up with some lyrical ideas and I would come up with some music for it. So between Darian and my music and Van Dyke's lyrics, we finished it.

[Evan]

Yeah.

[Ian]

Insightful as always. Thank you, Brian. And so together they end up putting it all together, the three of them, throughout the fall of 2003. Mid December 2003, with the world premiere of Brian Willis and Premiere presents Smile only two months away. Darian remembers, quote, it got to the point where Brian and Van Dyke had so many ideas about whether something should be expanded upon or left alone. Just these decisions. And it was getting close to the holidays, and I knew we were gonna have to pick up with the band after the first of the year and start recording. And I had to start getting the vocal arrangements transcribed. We were running out of time. We got the final approval maybe a week before Christmas, and the real work began. And so in early 2004, the Brian Wilson band all assembles. And you actually see some of this. They talk about it in great detail in the book. I'm not going to quote from it to any great extent because we've already, I think, charted most of this story here. But you see a lot of this in the footage there. Like, Brian is not stoked to be doing this. At that point, sitting in that room, he's in some sort of den with the rest of the band all assembled around him in chairs, probing Gregory and Darian Zanaja and Paul Van Mertens and Bob Lyzaac and stuff. And he's just like. He kind of just doesn't want to be there. He's like, not participating in the rehearsals. He's not really even looking at people. He seems to be asleep at certain points. So they've gone through all of this work. They've done the whole thing. They've assembled this whole new construction. Brian Wilson's smile circa 2004. And here we are at the final moments when the band has to learn their parts and figure out how to execute it on stage. And he's like seemingly about to just walk away from the entire thing.

[Evan]

I like when he's like, well, I. I thought, well, I couldn't just do that because I'd catch hell from the promoter. And so it's like not, not that like everybody in your orbit is breaking their back to make it happen. He's like, well, the promoter would be mad, so have to do it.

[Ian]

Yep. I don't want to get in an argument with someone, so I guess I'll go out and just face the biggest demon fear of my entire life just so I don't get in an argument with the promoter.

[Evan]

The one thing he fears more is just like having an argument about money.

[Ian]

Someone sending him a strongly worded email. Two weeks of vocal rehearsals had begun terribly, but they got progressively better. There were even moments of pure Brian levity, like the day he arrived late after having his prostate exam. Quoting Darian, Brian said, you shouldn't be scared. It's easy. Five minutes. You just pull your pants down and the doctor puts a glove on and sticks his finger up your ass, wiggles it around a little and that's it done. Yeah, yeah, that's what I understand it to be. And one way or another, they end up getting it figured out. They move to rehearsals in Burbank in a big warehouse by the airport. I love that this is all happening in just like a shapeless, nameless warehouse in just the deep Burbank, you know, this visionary manifest destiny cartoon come to life, realized through extraordinary carnival esque lyrics written by one of the 20th century's great American poets. It's just in like a Burbank warehouse being performed for the first time. There's something beautifully beach Boise y and beautifully Los Angeles. Yes, well, about that.

[Evan]

Many worlds, many fantastic worlds and stories have actually taken place and been and made in Burbank.

[Ian]

Fully realized in Burbank. Exactly. Imagine what's going on in all the other warehouses in Burbank if Smile was being recorded for the first time, there so many.

[Evan]

I mean, Burbank is really the. It's the city of dreams.

[Ian]

It is. It is. It's good. I like Burbank.

[Evan]

It's good place. I like Burbank.

[Ian]

Yeah. And so they. They figured it out one way or another and pick up and get their asses over to London, and they end up up making it happen again. Brian is kind of petrified and seems to maybe, like, right up until the last moment be deciding, maybe I don't want to do this whole thing. But to his credit, whether. Whether it's just due to catching hell from the promoter or belief in himself or the emotional security provided by all of the people in his life, he's able to get out there on stage and perform it. And it is fucking amazing. I mean, there are clips in documentary. We'll obviously talk about the record itself in great detail on the next episode, but it all just, like, it works. And it works, I think, as good as you could ever hope it to be. Maybe even better again. They're able to kind of revisit this stuff and execute on it this well after this many years, through this many challenges over the ensuing decade. Like, it's. I don't know, it's a musical miracle to me, the fact that, A, that it got made at all, and that, B, it ends up being as satisfying as it really is.

[Evan]

Yeah.

[Ian]

And you see that on stage. Everyone's just kind of amazed that this is really even happening. And the end of that first performance, when Brian brings Van Dyke up and

[Evan]

like, oh, it's so good.

[Ian]

They hug and Brian raises Van Dyke's hand, you really get the sense that this is. This is their thing, it's Brian's thing, and it's the band's thing, and it's everyone who's involved, but really, more than anything else, it's Brian and Van Dyke's baby.

[Evan]

It is. Yeah. It's a totally unique and beautiful piece of work.

[Ian]

It's unbelievable. And a beautiful testament, I think, to the power of friendship. That's right. Honestly, it. It.

[Evan]

I liked when Van Dyke said heroes and villains who wanted to do something about good guys and bad guys and good guys winning. And I. I like that. Hey, me too.

[Ian]

Good guys and bad guys, that's. That's classic, classic storytelling right there.

[Evan]

Bad guys always lose. Evil always loses. Bad guys.

[Ian]

In the stories, maybe good guys win.

[Evan]

In this story, the good guys win.

[Ian]

In this story, the good guys win. Exactly. And that's why it's a story worth telling, particularly in these days when the bad guys seem to be racking up the victories one after another. I'll let Van Dyke kind of close things out for us here with just some more philosophizing about the project at the time in 2004. Speaking about the experience, where it's at, where it's coming from. Said the kid in Brian is still very much there. It's very much alive. I can see it when he does this material through the performance. Brian Wilson's performance of his own songs, which I think is not a dastardly deed, when you come to think of it. I think it's a wonderful moment which he's earned and I'm looking forward to it. But with absolute uncertainty and excitement bordering on fear. Because I know any insult that might come to the process is not only irrelevant, it's redundant. I keep thinking that there can be no more downside to this, to this risk of getting out there, getting up on the high wire without the net. I think that's the quote we were talking about specifically earlier, which is what he will be doing. I think that it's important to perform this piece so that it can be analyzed on its own merits. But I think that it will be favorable the whole way around, certainly cathartic for me, because the other shoe will have dropped and any further attempts to demonize the effort will be passe. Because the project is without malice. And I think that it will be startling to hear it and to deal with it. But what really interests me about the performance of Smile is that Brian Wilson will have done Smile. He will have done it for himself, for his own pleasure, to hear it and to see how it works in a real, direct, interactive way, and not just through the web of piratical forces that are out there that have determined how the project should end. It won't end. It will find its proper dynamic. And I think you can hear it all there on the record, which we will get to next time on Jokerman.

[Evan]

Giving me the citation. I'm picking up the vibration. She's giving me the. That was that tempo is awesome.

[Ian]

Awesome.

[Darian]

You're going to shut up those tea bags a thing or two. You're gonna show them. I'm just. I'm looking forward to it. But with absolute uncertainty and excitement bordering on fear. I keep thinking that there can be no more downside to this risk of getting out there and getting up on the high wire without the net, which is what he will be doing.