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- [00:00]
Ian
Welcome back to Jokerman. I'm Ian Today in conversation with Benjamin Booker, who is back for the first time in some number of years. Too long away with his new record Lower. A lot of folks out there might remember Benjamin from his first couple records. Honestly, the first one came out like over a decade ago when he was, you know, written about his the hot new blues quote, unquote blues punk man on the scene. We talked a little bit about that descriptor and how accurate it may or may not have ever been in this episode. New record sounds almost nothing like anything you've come to expect from him in the best way possible. It's always exciting and important, I think, vital when artists are able and willing to strike another match and go start anew. To quote a favorite of mine, cut the new record in between Los Angeles and like the western coast of Australia, working with Kenny Siegel, one of the great producers in hip hop running today, who's worked with Billy Woods, Armand Hammer. It's fascinating. Genre bending, genre exploding. Honestly. Record thrilling start to the new year here for great new music. Hopefully this is an equally thrilling start to the new year with great new podcast conversation. Plenty of bob talk in here too for all the old school heads. Here's Benjamin Time.
- [02:02]
Benjamin Booker
This side of the time.
- [02:10]
Ian
Are you coming from New Orleans right now? Do I understand correct you're down in New Orleans these days?
- [02:16]
Benjamin Booker
That's right, Yeah. I was living in Perth and Fremantle, which is a little suburb in Australia, for like the last four years. And then I moved here last year.
- [02:27]
Ian
Man, I'm guessing Australia to New Orleans. There's a bit of a. I mean, you're obviously familiar with New Orleans, but just the, you know, culture clash or a change of scenery I'm guessing is a little different.
- [02:39]
Benjamin Booker
No, it turns out no black people in Australia, they don't really have them. But there's. Yeah, there's a big difference when you people say all the time like that people are the same everywhere. And I don't think that that's true at all. It's not just food and like superficial things, but I mean, really the way that people see the entire world, like their value system, the way that they think about community and like all of these things is so different and really trickles down to like every aspect of their life. So it was. That part of it was interesting for me to see. It made me, I think, realize how American I am. You know what I mean?
- [03:20]
Ian
Sure.
- [03:21]
Benjamin Booker
In all the negative ways, you know what I mean? It's like I can't really Separate myself from that more can probably anybody else who grows up here, I guess.
- [03:30]
Ian
Totally. Yeah. Sometimes you gotta leave, you know, where you're from to realize that you're from there. We were just talking about this a moment ago, before we started recording. But, like, you know, I grew up in Los Angeles, moved to New York for a couple years, and then, like, it took being out of California to realize, like, oh, actually, I just. This is where I need to be until I die, you know?
- [03:47]
Benjamin Booker
Yeah. Not an east coast guy, huh?
- [03:49]
Ian
Not so much. And I just.
- [03:50]
Benjamin Booker
What did you think about people out there? What was the big.
- [03:54]
Ian
I mean, people are fine. You know, there's the. There's the kind of, you know, the New York stereotype of, like, yeah, everyone's mean and, you know, kind of grimacing and they're just kind of an asshole to you. And then there's also the California stereotype where, like, everyone is nice and vibing and having a great. And obviously, those are just. Those are stereotypes. You. You get plenty of other types of people in both locations, but I think in general, just New York, it's sort of like I like being in a place where I am in an urban environment. I live in a city, and I can walk around, go to parks, restaurants, movies, concerts, whatever. But then I can also get in my car and be just in the most amazing natural environment in the world, 45 minutes out of my front door. And New York, as beautiful as Long island and the Hudson Valley can be, it's not exactly the same experience.
- [04:42]
Benjamin Booker
As beautiful as Long island can be. I've never heard that before.
- [04:45]
Ian
Yeah, I mean, you go far enough east out there, you know, Montauk is pretty nice, but, yeah, it's a little grim, particularly during the winter. So I'm back where I like to be. But you were in Los Angeles for some period of time, not when you were making this record, but sort of in the run up to, like, pre pandemic, right?
- [05:06]
Benjamin Booker
Yeah, yeah, I was living there. I was in, like. I was on the east side mostly, like in Echo park and Silver Lake. Eventually, I just could not stand that area and moved downtown, which I loved.
- [05:18]
Ian
It was where down. I. I lived downtown for a couple years.
- [05:20]
Benjamin Booker
Where downtown there's a Pan American building, which is, like, right across the street from Grand Central Market. Sure, yeah. So I was in that building, and it was incredible. I mean, I would just, like, skate around and, like, take photos and just, like, people watch. I'm like, those kinds of things down there is just unreal. Plus, at nighttime, you have Just like, all of the interactions with the homeless people.
- [05:42]
Ian
Interesting folks. Yeah, yeah.
- [05:44]
Benjamin Booker
I preferred it to the echo part kind of vibes, you know?
- [05:47]
Ian
Oh, absolutely. No, I mean downtown, I think. I feel like it was kind of coming up for a while, and then it seems to sort of maybe have leveled out, and now the energy's sort of elsewhere in Los Angeles. But I'm very. You know, I love downtown Los Angeles. It's such a.
- [05:59]
Benjamin Booker
Did you. Did you see the. Did you ever see the Woody Guthrie plaque that they have down there?
- [06:04]
Ian
I don't think so, no.
- [06:05]
Benjamin Booker
Yeah, yeah. Not too far away from Grand Central Market, like, a couple streets up. I think it's on Main. There's a plaque to Woody Guthrie, like, talking about how it used to hang out in the buildings down there and, like, whoa, play around downtown. I had no idea. I. I had no idea. I've never heard anybody talk about it, but it's there. Damn.
- [06:21]
Ian
I gotta search that out sometime. I got. Because, like, that seems like. Yeah, 4th and Maine. Sure enough. Holy wow. Okay. Well, putting a pin in this, but I got to go find that when I come back down. What. What did you. I mean, to the extent that it did, you know, kind of play a role in writing, creating, putting the record together, you know, what. What was it? You know, what. What part do you credit Los Angeles with in the. In the new record?
- [06:53]
Benjamin Booker
I think there was definitely a focus on kind of people on the outside, I guess, like, more removed from society, you know, that was the thing that I think that I was missing. I mean, like, when I grew up. I grew up in, like, Florida and, like, a trailer park on the outside of the. The city. And, like, I just felt so out of place in Silver Lake in those. I mean, I had no connection to anybody there. And I. And I, when I was downtown and just, like, even being around people, just kind of, like, really roughing it and stuff like that. I just felt like I needed to be closer to them, you know what I mean? And I think working on this record that was definitely more. The kinds of stories and things that I wanted to focus on was just those people.
- [07:40]
Ian
Sure, yeah. I mean, a song like Pompeii Statue seems like it's written, maybe not explicitly about, you know, some of what you might see on the streets of downtown Los Angeles, but that. I mean, those images were called to mind immediately, before I even knew, obviously, that. It seems like maybe that was an influence there. I saw you name check also, and I read the little Rolling Stone profile of you recently, and you Name checked. This Kerry James Marshall exhibit at moc.
- [08:04]
Benjamin Booker
Did you see it?
- [08:04]
Ian
I did, yeah. I like, I. It was what, seven or eight years ago at this point? But I remember just. And I didn't even know what I was getting myself into, but one of my friends took me there. It was just fucking amazing, you know, Mind blowing.
- [08:16]
Benjamin Booker
Yeah.
- [08:16]
Ian
Unbelievable stuff.
- [08:18]
Benjamin Booker
How do people like that go unknown for so long? Because I think that that exhibit had a huge impact. I started hearing other people talking about it too, other artists and stuff like that. I think it was. It was a really big deal for people.
- [08:29]
Ian
Yeah, I think. Yeah, I think it was. You know, I don't know really much at all about Kerry James Marshall's history of exhibition, but from what I understand, one of the biggest, like, solo shows and one of the biggest institutions. I think that kind of put. Put him on the map, you know, as. As a. As a big, you know, significant. It just, it was amazing. I was, I was stoked to see you credit that.
- [08:54]
Benjamin Booker
Or at least I think that Bob would like him. I think that Bob would.
- [08:57]
Ian
Yeah. Sort of different painting sty. But, you know, could, could, could find something to appreciate there, I'm sure.
- [09:05]
Benjamin Booker
Well, he's one of those people. We were talking earlier about the. I think that from the interviews I've heard of Kerry Jones Marshall. It's just like he really knows everything about painting. He knows the history of painting. And when he's painting something, he's trying to make a painting that doesn't exist. Which is of course, I think what Bob does. Just you have to have that kind of knowledge to be able to do that. And it's exciting to see an exhibit like that where it's like, every painting is like, I've never seen anything like this before. This is the bottom of my mind. There's not very many artists who are blowing minds out there.
- [09:39]
Ian
No, totally. And like, especially, I mean, I'm decidedly a music guy. You know, I like all my arts to some extent, but, you know, I sort of have a hard time connecting with a lot of paintings and sculpture and like, stuff that's in a museum. There's something about just music and the way it kind of exists in my life and like, I can go through the world in. Is always with me. Instead of like, you go to the museum and you're like, now I'm in my art appreciating mindset and I'm in this space and then I leave the museum and I'm no longer in my art appreciating mindset. You Know, music just kind of travels with you. And that to me, I think is part of what makes it so, you know, it's my shit. But that all said, I think, you know, I just. Kerry James Marshall's paintings were like one of the few paintings or exhibitions that I've seen over the last however many years that like actually really did conjure, you know, pull forth spontaneous emotional response.
- [10:33]
Benjamin Booker
You know, I do think that, I do think that painting can do that, but it's like you, you have to have it in your house. Like if, if you buy artwork that, that means something to you. It really to me has the same kind of effect as music where I just like can grow with it and see different things in it as time goes on and have that kind of experience. But to be honest, to get paintings from good artists nowadays is just like impossible because of obviously the, what do you call it, just like rich people.
- [11:02]
Ian
Using it to launder money. It's a little pricey. Yeah, exactly. Music, it's a little easier to pay for these days. Although at the same time, obviously I think that probably has an impact on people such as yourself, the musicians who maybe aren't seeing the same sort of returns that you might deserve from the Spotify's and the Apple musics and the titles of the world.
- [11:24]
Benjamin Booker
Exactly, yeah. I don't know. And who knows what it's going to be like in the future. I mean, you have people like Neil and Bob and all these people just selling their entire catalog. So it's scary to think about what the future is going to be. I don't know.
- [11:36]
Ian
Oh yeah, no, I mean, I mean the sums of those, those catalogs, you know, in the hundreds of millions probably, you know, the next one that goes, whatever it'll be, will be like a billion dollars. It's just, you know, you can't even imagine the, the scale of that.
- [11:49]
Benjamin Booker
I wonder why they do it. I mean, to me, I guess, I mean, I guess if you're somebody like Bob or one of those people who it seems like they're trying really hard to become, I don't want to say like folk heroes, but. But you know what I mean, they're really trying to embed themselves in the culture permanently. It's like maybe they just. It's like, okay, if you want to put this in a thousand TV shows, great, like, I don't care anymore because people don't. People have forgotten those people, you know what I mean? Like, I met a 30 year old the other day who had no idea who Bruce Spingston was. You know what I mean?
- [12:24]
Ian
Jesus.
- [12:27]
Benjamin Booker
So, I mean, it's just like. It goes so fast. It goes so fast.
- [12:30]
Ian
That's insane. Yeah. I mean, I think there is an extent, you know, there's some part of it that's like. They're just like, I don't want to deal with it anymore. You know, I'm sort of at the end of my line. I have a team in place that I trust. At least for Bob, particularly. I know. I know he's got people that he trusts, you know, at Columbia and on his business side. And they're just like, all right. You know, it's out of my hands at this point. But at the same time, I don't think that that's really gonna apply, really, to so many art. You know, this is sort of like a single kind of wave of artists who have discographies, I think, that are this quote, unquote valuable that could be sold for this large of a sum. Because they just reached this level of cultural hegemony in the past. That current day artists, like, literally, frankly, just cannot. I don't think you're ever going to get someone who is as culturally important. As someone like Bob Dylan, at least working in the pop rock sp. That exists at this point, you know.
- [13:29]
Benjamin Booker
Right. And especially the biggest things now are the biggest artists are hip hop artists and people like that. And hip hop is such an interesting thing because people just. It changes over so fast. Like, there's no respect for the past. Which is one of the things that's cool about it. And why it's so exciting to hear young people just. What music that came out 10 years ago is just like, that music. We hate it. We don't want anything to do with it. But I think that that's honestly one of the reasons why rock is not very exciting these days. Is because I heard. I think it was Richard Russell, the. The guy who runs XO Records was talking about it. But he was saying that, like, bands still kind of have this idea in their head that, like, the Beatles are the best band. And, like, they can't ever beat that. And it's like, you can't approach music like that. You have to be like, I'm gonna. Those are old. That's old thing. Fuck them. I'm gonna do something better. That's gotta be the attitude, you know what I mean?
- [14:27]
Ian
Totally. Yeah. No, I think that that's a. That's a great point. There's a. You know, I think a lot of the music that's popular today Whether it's hip hop or like, I don't even know what to call it because, you know, a lot of stuff is like. Like, have you heard Xavier so based?
- [14:39]
Benjamin Booker
No. No, I haven't.
- [14:40]
Ian
So he's like. He's like 19 or something. He puts all his records out on SoundCloud and YouTube and he had like the number 10 song of the entire decade on the most recent, like, Pitchfork list or something. And I think they call it hip hop or what, but it doesn't even like he, like, rhymes or verses. It's almost more just like sample atmospheric electronic music in my estimation. And so that kind of thing, there is this disposable quality to that, right? Because you're just kind of putting it out on streaming sites. There isn't even a physical release in many cases. But at the same time, that disposable quality almost works to its benefit because it allows you to just kind of iterate and change and move forward so quickly, frankly, kind of similar to the way that someone like Bob did, obviously, 60 years ago, though.
- [15:43]
Benjamin Booker
We take our pit in downtown Straight up the boulevard Passing the tints on concrete, needles and bottle shards Making a way to the city Queen of angels in the heart of the city.
- [16:08]
Ian
Well, speaking of iterating and changing over time, this record we're here to talk about today. There you go. There's. That's how we do it in the biz. Lower out now, at least as of when this episode is out for people to listen to. Your first record in. It's 20, 25, so eight years, right? What took so long?
- [16:35]
Benjamin Booker
Oh, man, I think that I just hit this wall, this place where I didn't. Like, where I. Where I was. It's like we were talking about where it's just like you're. You're not getting into that. That new territory, that. That. That dangerous place where. Where you want to be, where you feel like I'm pushing things a little bit and I wanted to do more, I guess, but it just takes a long time to kind of get that together. I think that I had to do a lot of learning and just kind of like seeing how I could fit in to the world now. You know what I mean? Like, part of me feels like I was kind of drawing before doing sketches in, like, I wanted to learn how to paint, you know what I mean? Like, and that. That for somebody who is coming from my background of, like, the folk and punk and like, all those kinds of things, it was like I didn't really know anything about recording or Any of that kind of stuff am I playing? It is still limited. So I think there was just years of me kind of digging around, listening to different kinds of music and trying to learn more about recording and do all those kinds of things. So I spent a couple years doing that, a couple years recording it, and then a couple of years trying to find somebody to put it out.
- [17:56]
Ian
Well, those are all equally important pieces of the puzzle. Certainly putting it out, at least that might be the most important in many ways.
- [18:06]
Benjamin Booker
They're not really looking for anything. I mean, like, it's so hard nowadays. It's just because the labels are struggling so much. There's no kind of. They're really not looking for people who are doing anything outside of, you know.
- [18:22]
Ian
What they already know works. Yeah. And like, you know, this record is excellent and exciting and, you know, bold in many ways, but I don't know that it's necessarily going to soundtrack, you know, a 10,000 new TikTok videos. I don't know. I don't know if we're going to get a Benjamin Booker dance craze coming online. So, you know, that's, yeah, it's really hard.
- [18:45]
Benjamin Booker
It's just like, I, I, I respect a lot of people who write music, but it's just like, I don't want to hear Phoebe Bridges. I don't want to hear that kind of stuff. You know what I mean? It's like, give me something. So much of stuff now is really just. What would you even call it? It's just people doing their version of something that's already been done, you know what I mean, and done better. So it's just like, why are you doing this? I just, I remember riding downtown and seeing people outside the Regent dressed up in, like,'70s punk clothes with, like, the spiked hair and stuff like that. And just thinking, like, why, like, still doing this? You're young. You're young. You should be, you should be like, against this and think, this is super late.
- [19:33]
Ian
It is. It is funny to think about, I mean, like, you know, like, Johnny Rotten, you know, John Lydon, obviously great artist. You know, Sex Pistols and pil to the formative, you know, essential punk rock bands. But, like, the concept of someone, like, calling themselves Johnny Rotten and being like, this is a real, you know, I'm really challenging authority by saying my name is, you know, Philip Stinky or whatever. It's like preposterous.
- [19:59]
Benjamin Booker
Yeah, it's crazy. It's wild. I just hope that there's more. I mean, there is that kind of stuff out There, but it's like, way harder to find it is out there.
- [20:11]
Ian
I. Well, so, I mean, I remember, you know, really falling in love with your first record, you know, when it came out in 2014. Oh, wow.
- [20:20]
Benjamin Booker
I didn't know you had heard it before.
- [20:21]
Ian
Yeah, no, I had no idea who it was. Yeah, I was stoked when, I don't know, we connected on Instagram somehow and it was just like, oh, yeah, I remember. And then Witness came out, I think, like, three years after that, which nobody liked it. Well, I mean, did no one like, it. Was that. Was that what happened?
- [20:42]
Benjamin Booker
Well, I think it was. It was just one of those things where it's like, people. It's just not the business way, I guess. Like, I didn't. It didn't even cross my mind that, like, oh, you're in the business now. You make one thing that's successful and then you just keep doing it. Like, I just. It never even occurred to me to do that. And I honestly never thought about fans ever, like, not once. And so I think that that record, just some people, if you were along for the ride, then like, sure, those. There are some people who are like, this is the same guy. I get this. But a lot of people who just sound wise. I think people were just like, this is not the first record.
- [21:18]
Ian
We do not know what we're looking for. Well, I mean, on that note, I think lower is in many ways. Yeah, exactly. Even worse, maybe. Can you. Can you walk me through, like, just how you kind of arrived at the sound that you found on this record?
- [21:36]
Benjamin Booker
Yeah, totally. Will. Like, we were talking earlier about trying to find a place that feels like your own. I think at the time I was listening to this mom deep record, Hell on Earth.
- [21:50]
Ian
I saw you name check that in the rolling stuff. I haven't listened to Hell on Earth so much, but, you know, the infamous is fucking like one of the great. So I've got Hell on Earth on my long list.
- [21:59]
Benjamin Booker
But it just. It's really good when you. When you mahabdeep just in particular for some reason. It just really resonates with me. Just these, like, really melancholy, simple, atmospheric beats and just kind of. There's a lot of talk about violence and stuff, but there's also kind of a lot of discussion of just like the kind of inner world and kind of emotions and like, the toll that all of that kind of takes on you and stuff like that.
- [22:26]
Ian
More interiority than you might otherwise expect.
- [22:28]
Benjamin Booker
Right. It's really interesting you see that in people like Freddie Gibbs today. There are people still doing that kind of thing. So I, I like that kind of stuff. And then I was also listening to Psycho Candy, the Jesus, Mary Jane.
- [22:41]
Ian
Oh, yeah. Come on. One of the greats.
- [22:43]
Benjamin Booker
And it was literally just one of those things where I was singing over the mob deep songs as they were playing. And I just thought that you never really heard those like, Psycho Candy kind of like walls of distortion, like that kind of stuff in over hip hop beats. Like.
- [23:00]
Ian
Sure.
- [23:01]
Benjamin Booker
I mentioned it to a manager. Like, I was like, oh yeah, I think I'm just gonna, I sent him a demo. I was like, I think I'm just gonna do like some boom bap drums and like throw some like, walls of distortion on this. And he, he laughed because just the idea of it was just like, what are you talking about? And, but that's, that's what got, I think, got me excited about it. It's just like, can I combine these two things together in a way that, that works? And so that was how I started working on this album. It took a really long time and evolved. I guess I eventually just had to kind of like, learn about the history of like, distortion and like how, how it had been used and like, figure out what kind of like, specific like hip hop influences I wanted to incorporate. Yeah, that was, that was pretty much.
- [23:47]
Ian
The journey, how to put them together. Totally. And then, and then at some point you hooked up with Kenny Siegel, you know, one of the great producers working today, who obviously has put out some great collaborative records with Billy woods and then Hammer and stuff. Yeah, I mean, amazing stuff.
- [24:03]
Benjamin Booker
Have you, have you, have you listened to Billy woods, his solo stuff ever?
- [24:06]
Ian
I, I, honestly, I've only listened to the Billy and Billy and Kenny like, joint stuff.
- [24:10]
Benjamin Booker
He, he, to me, is maybe the greatest lyricist of all time. Like, I, I, well, oh, oh, I'm putting him over Bob. I'm putting him over everybody. Like, okay, just you wait. Just you wait. History. 20 years from now, we'll look back and say that it's this guy. This is the guy. But that's just my opinion. I know a lot of people disagree with that.
- [24:34]
Ian
Well, you know, he's definitely made a name for himself at this point. I think one of the most interesting and invigorating people working in hip hop today. But you know, Kenny also. What was it like working with him?
- [24:51]
Benjamin Booker
Well, Kenny's incredible, but I, I would say that he's a descendant of that mom style of beat making, that kind of thing. He, he just, he has his own thing, which is hard to Find these days, I think because he grew up listening to like Nine Inch Nails and those kinds of things. He had like an understanding of rock music, but then he also used to do like, drum and bass music and now he does hip hop. So it's just somebody who understands like electronic music and rock music and hip hop. But it's like, again, you have to have kind of a knowledge of everything to be able to do something that feels different. You know what I mean?
- [25:25]
Ian
Yeah. It sort of strikes me, I mean, what he does with Billy and then also, you know, what he's done with you here. There's almost. You mentioned Freddie Gibbs earlier, but he like, kind of almost seems like a Mad Lib or, you know, alchemist approach. Exactly. Like on Alfredo or Pinata or whatever.
- [25:42]
Benjamin Booker
I don't think he denied it.
- [25:43]
Ian
Yeah, it's. I mean, it's awesome. Genre in quotes is sort of a loaded concept, and we've already been kind of talking about it today, but it does still structure. A lot of people's listening habits from radio stations are broken out by genre. There's the country music radio station, there's the hip hop radio station. There's the top 40 radio station. And then also obviously, in streaming playlists. Yeah, exactly. So much of that is algorithmic and Spotify is just looking at this genre of music. Let's figure out what other artists exist in that vertical and then just keep. Keep serving our listeners with that. With that music. I don't. I mean, songs that show up here on Lower, I don't even know if one is more likely to pop up. For someone who, like, is listening to Dive or is listening to like Navy Blue or like anything in between. Can you just kind of. Yeah, Navy Blue's another great. Just what's your perspective on, you know, on that kind of stuff on genre and your willingness and your specific. Your willingness to, as far as I can tell, just sort of like not really think about it or even give a shit about it.
- [26:56]
Benjamin Booker
Yeah, I mean, people are cowards. It's really a simple stuff like that. They just don't. They're just too scared to branch out from that. The most exciting people working out are people who are just kind of against genre. I do feel like we are in like a kind of like a post genre world now especially. I think that you see all these people who have kind of grown up with Spotify and like all these sites where they have access to everything, to the history of music. And so it's like, if you're still trying to work within one genre, it just seems so. So boring. And that you're not really using everything that's. That's at your fingertips, you know what I mean? I really. What got me was like, I. I got this drum machine called a DSI Tempest. And like, when I started working with that, it's like you. You realize that you can do things like to just take white noise and like, put a filter on it or chop it up so that. That becomes like a cymbal sound or whatever. Or you can put fuzz on, like a guitar with reverb, and it sounds like a trumpet. Like, I started thinking about sounds more in terms of, like, texture and those kinds of things and less about genre. So that. That was also like a big thing, I guess, for me is just not death. Just not. Just not caring about that.
- [28:27]
Ian
Yeah, I mean, that's like you said, people, cameras. I'm glad that you're not one of them.
- [28:31]
Benjamin Booker
Thank you.
- [28:32]
Ian
Thank you.
- [28:47]
Benjamin Booker
Swing the trees Hungry Quiet Dreams with her, the dirt it was you Just like you wanted Just like you wanted Just like you wanted Just like you wanted.
- [29:18]
Ian
Yeah, I think a lot of the. I mean, these are very much still songs, you know. I don't want to give anyone the impression that this is some sort of like, you know, completely atonal, impossible to listen to album. It's a. It's a classic record in many ways. I think it's 12 songs long and, you know, your songs are working three, four, five minutes runtime, verse, chorus, verse in some cases. But beyond that, you know, everything else. Everything else that's going on, you know, the signifier, certainly. I think when the first record came out, it was like a lot of like. Like Benjamin Booker, the, like, you know, hotshot blues punk maven or like, that.
- [29:58]
Benjamin Booker
Type of thing that didn't even make any sense to me. There's a. There's a. I think a lot of it has to do with like. Like you said, it's like we need this person to be in a genre so that we can sell these albums. You know what I mean? And they knew that I was a fan of blues music and that kind of stuff. But for me, blues was always more about. I like the stories that they were telling and the kind of. Of people that they were talking about. You know what I mean? Like, I like the. The atmosphere and the. The attitude, which is not that dissimilar from hip hop and those kinds of things, so. But I think that honestly, I. I couldn't play. I knew one position on the guitar, like one Scale position and like, I'm just chugging away at guitar, you know? You know what I mean? Like, maybe there was like. Like one song that had like a blues chord progression, but it was more kind of just like, this is how we can sell this guy. Well, he'll be our blues guy.
- [30:53]
Ian
It almost feels, you know, like sort of just like a lazy kind of catch all term, you know, as opposed to like actually trying to understand what it was that you were doing. Like, to me, like, I didn't really know shit about the blues back then, and I still don't really know much about the blues, but certainly having become more acquainted with my friend Bob Dylan and like, you know, like, compared to Charlie Patton and Blind Lemon and stuff like that, like, you know, the music you were making on your first record really does not bear a whole lot of resemblance to like, actual, you know, blues men from the 1920s and 30s. So it's. It just felt, you know, kind of lazy, I would say.
- [31:34]
Benjamin Booker
Yeah, I mean, it was more. I was more attracted to, like I said to the types of songs they were writing. They're writing about just like death and, you know, just like being extremely depressed and like drinking themselves to death and that kind of stuff. It's like, yes, I can relate to this. You know what I mean?
- [31:50]
Ian
Totally. Can't we all?
- [31:53]
Benjamin Booker
Because at the time, I mean, when I was a kid, it was like. It was either listening to that or listening to like Nelly, you know what I mean? Like, I didn't really. I just went straight to that kind of stuff. You know what I mean?
- [32:03]
Ian
Totally. Totally. Well, I mean, on that note, I think the new record there. There's some dark shit on. On the album, but it does seem to me, at least to sort of open up a little bit as it. It progresses from the beginning to the end. I'm thinking of songs like New World or Show and Tell towards the end, which seem to, I think, sort of the darker, more insular mood or mode that you're working in at the beginning of the record, like I said, opens up. Some light comes in by the end of it. Can you talk about the narrative arc of the album to the extent that there even is one?
- [32:41]
Benjamin Booker
Yeah. When we were sequencing the album, Kenny had a lot to do with the narrative arc and how that that works out. So I have to credit him for that. But there was definitely, I mean, I. I grew up in the church and listening to like a lot of gospel music and stuff like that. So there. There is an element of gospel music which is about kind of overcoming dark times. But there, even when the song is about some heavy struggle, there's always this element of hope and gospel music, you know what I mean? Sure. So I. I think that I try to do that on the records, you know what I mean? Where it's like, even if it is a bummer thematically, at some points, it's like there has to be some kind of hope, you know what I mean?
- [33:25]
Ian
I'm not like a complete listener, not a complete nihilist. It's not all just, you know, dark into the world type of.
- [33:34]
Benjamin Booker
Well, it is, but I'm like. I have to tell myself that it's.
- [33:40]
Ian
Well. And on that note, I would say, you know, in general, you sort of tend towards, you know, as a songwriter, at least on this record, you know, you're a little more abstract than, like, explicit. But in terms of, like, subject matter, I should say. But I do think that there's a very clear sort of political or social valence to some of the songs. You know, Pompeii Statues, like we were talking about earlier, or the first single, LWI and the Trailer Park. You know, we're obviously heading into, you know, Donald Trump 2.0 at this point.
- [34:10]
Benjamin Booker
Here we go, baby.
- [34:11]
Ian
Yeah, it's, you know, back and better than ever. This record literally comes out, I think, like, four days after he's inaugurated. And the culture, to me, at least at this, like, it seems like there's, like, zero appetite for any sort of, like, resistance or engaging with political or social concerns through art this time. Like, people just kind of made their peace, like, the bad guys won. Let's get over it and move on and figure out other places in the world to direct our energies. I mean, as someone who's been working through a variety of political circumstances at this point over the years. What's your read on that?
- [34:50]
Benjamin Booker
Yeah, I do think that there's a lot of people who don't want to deal with it because it is a bummer. You know what I mean? I heard this comedian was talking about. He asked Netflix, what shouldn't I talk about if I want this to be popular? And they were like, don't talk about politics. Don't talk about COVID Those are the rules. Like, if you want people to look at this, please don't do that. So I think, yeah, people. People get bummed out by it. I think that the last album that I had was also more kind of leaning towards that step, too. And I think that, yeah, it's like, people. They want to escape this Album, I think I tried to find. It was like, I'm not gonna change the kinds of things that I'm talking about, but the music has to be more fun. You know what I mean? Like, this is a good record to smoke weed, do, and just like, put on, but. But the themes are there, so it's like you can ignore it and just have a good time, or. Or you can dig in deeper and look at that kind of stuff. But I wanted to give people more of an option to tap into.
- [35:46]
Ian
Sure. So, like, let people opt into it if that's something they're looking for, but not necessarily, you know, beat them over the head with that type of thing.
- [35:55]
Benjamin Booker
No. And I wasn't really interested in. I think I got better at talking about that kind of stuff. Like, it's. I'm using more kind of, like, images and those kinds of things than I was before. Which kind of comes, I think, from being more interested in visual art and starting to paint myself and those kinds of things. Like, less kind of direct, political stuff, you know?
- [36:18]
Ian
Sure, totally. So you. You're. You said you're starting to paint yourself also.
- [36:23]
Benjamin Booker
Yeah, totally. I mean, I would say that I'm pretty terrible at it, but it is fun to do. I think that the paintings ended up being. I was like, oh, this is. These are the things that I like. Like, the songs that I record are, like, pretty rough and there's lots of distortion, stuff like that. And I realized, like, when I'm doing paintings, I'm like, like, scraping them with, like, Brillo pads and, like, just kind of, like, messing them up. Like, I like things that are messy, abrasive. Yeah. The subject were kind of, like, similar. You know what I mean? Like, it's me. You know what I mean? Like, I'm. I realized that, like, even if I'm painting or doing whatever, it's just like, I. I lean towards these.
- [37:02]
Ian
Sure. Do you find. I also find it interesting when talking to people who, like, you know, are multidisciplinary, when. Which is not to say that, like, it sounds like your painting is not necessarily as fully realized as your music at this moment, but just having, you know, another outlet for whatever is going on inside of you. Like, do you. When you stumble across or just when something pops up in your brain, you know, an interesting thought or image or realization or what? Like, do you find yourself thinking, like, oh, this is something worse worth engaging with musically, like, as a songwriter, or it's better, like, more appropriate to look at it through a visual medium. Is that something that you're even conscious of.
- [37:43]
Benjamin Booker
Well, I did say that I lean towards similar things, but it was actually I could do things in painting that I couldn't do in songwriting or that I found it really hard to do in songwriting. On this song, I mean, on this album, I have a song called Rebecca Latimer Felton takes a BBC, which is like, a reference to, like, pornography.
- [38:03]
Ian
Like, I'm not a British Broadcasting Company reference.
- [38:08]
Benjamin Booker
It was like a pornography reference. Like. Yeah. Trying to write a song about pornography. It's easier to. To paint something. Sure. You know. You know what I mean? It was really. There's things that, like, I have a hard time writing about, finding a way to tackle them, that it was like, oh, this is way easier to do in painting. You know what I mean?
- [38:27]
Ian
Totally. Yeah. I mean, this reminds me, it's not exactly the same thing, but there is, you know, a connection here. Like, did you see the Bob Dylan movie I saw?
- [38:35]
Benjamin Booker
I. Yesterday? I went online and watched on one of those bootleg.
- [38:40]
Ian
Watched a rip. Okay. That's about the. You know, the correct level of investment and attention.
- [38:46]
Benjamin Booker
What did you think? What did you think about it?
- [38:48]
Ian
Oh, you know, it's the.
- [38:50]
Benjamin Booker
Have you talked about it already? Like, 10 times on buckets.
- [38:53]
Ian
Yeah, we've gotten a lot of. A lot of mileage out of that one.
- [38:56]
Benjamin Booker
I had low expectations, so it was like, all right, this is fine.
- [39:00]
Ian
Yeah, it's fine. That's kind of. The stock line is like. It does what it wants to do, and it gets. Hopefully, people seem to believe that it's getting a lot of people interested in Bob Dylan, which, if that's the case, it's great. And certainly it's great for me because people will now listen to me.
- [39:15]
Benjamin Booker
Little Timmy's gonna be on snl.
- [39:17]
Ian
Snl. That's right. Yeah. He's singing and hosting, so that's gonna be one for the ages. But one thing that we talked a little bit about, or I talked about in this New York Times thing, it was like the process of writing a song is inherently sort of uncinematic because it's like everything you're doing to crack the song is all happening just within your brain or sort of like the way that you are perceiving the world. And so to display that through a film, you know, they didn't do any of that. Yeah. And they couldn't. And that is. You know, it's good that they chose not to do that. But that is so much a part of what Bob Dylan's doing. And so, like, in a Book, like Chronicles, you know, which Bob wrote. You know, you do get so much more insight into the process of writing a song and, like, where he's, you know, how he kind of, you know, conjures this up from the depths. And so, like, that medium, you know, of actually, like, writing about songwriting as opposed to, like. Like doing it in a fit like that action is just more well suited for a specific, you know, type of medium.
- [40:26]
Benjamin Booker
Yeah, totally. That. That book is. Is incredible. I definitely went around New Orleans to find those spots that are in the.
- [40:33]
Ian
Oh, from the oh, Mercy section. Oh.
- [40:36]
Benjamin Booker
I met. I met Daniel in While, like three weeks ago. Really incredible.
- [40:40]
Ian
Whoa. How do you do you mind me?
- [40:43]
Benjamin Booker
I can't actually really. I honestly, I can't actually really say. Like, I went to a friend of mine, was working in a studio and was like, hey, you should come over. I'm working with lan Juan. I was like, damn. And I. It was just one of those things where it was like, three blocks away from my house and it was awesome. Yeah, he was just a chill, chill dude. Really, really cool.
- [41:07]
Ian
He just seems really chill. Any of the interviews that I've seen with him, like, certainly reading about his experiences with Bob, mostly from Bob, you know, Auto Mercy and Time out of Mind, it seems like it was a really fractious and, like, difficult type of experience. And they're, like, shouting at each other and Bob.
- [41:23]
Benjamin Booker
But that's because of Bob.
- [41:24]
Ian
Exactly. Like, anytime I've heard Lanois actually, like, and he's just so, like, chill and thoughtful and, like, seems like a really great kind of, you know, collaborative presence.
- [41:34]
Benjamin Booker
Yeah. So he came back to town. Hopefully we'll hear that soon. But. But yeah, I mean, he. He really still has it. Like, he can really deliver. Just preparing him with, like, a songwriter and just allowing him to do his, like, ambient kind of the thing that he does is.
- [41:52]
Ian
Sure.
- [41:53]
Benjamin Booker
It's great. Yeah, I love it.
- [41:54]
Ian
He's the man. So videos on. On this record. This is another thing that just like, totally randomly, there's a new connection here. I realized reading about this. So first single on the. The record, Lwa in the Trailer park. It's got this great, eerie, abstract video for it, which I think from what you said, is part of what will be a larger connected series of videos. And I think in your description for the video, you name check Paul Schrader as a major influence who we actually just podcasted with on the other show talking about Bob. What is it about Schrader as a filmmaker or a screenwriter? Both. And. Or that does it for.
- [42:33]
Benjamin Booker
I mean, straight leans into the darkness, you know what I mean? He loves it. He lives there. That's what I'm into. I. I think that I just like that kind of stuff. Like, that's why I like Bob. That's why I like all the people that. I mean, I grew up like a huge Nirvana fan also. It's just like, I like the people who aren't afraid to go into those spaces. And Paul's that guy. You know what I mean? You're not going to get movies like the Card Counter or Taxi Driver or. Or Mijima. Like, all of these things are just like, oh, you're like, Jesus. Like, for me, I can learn things from them, but I think it turns a lot of people off, you know, that kind of stuff.
- [43:10]
Ian
Yeah, there's a. There's a rawness, I think, to a lot of it and like a. Like a willingness to be unpleasant in many cases and not. Not like you're actively like, trying to like. It's not like sog, where it's like gross out body humor. You're just like, literally trying to elicit a negative reaction from the audience. But I think there is a willingness to, like, not shy from subject matter depictions or themes, you know, that will just naturally be kind of upsetting for people. Because it's upsetting shit. I guess that kind of goes back to what you were talking about a few minutes ago about comedy on Netflix. Like, stay away from these things if you want people to watch it, because, you know, that's just not what people want to see.
- [43:49]
Benjamin Booker
Yeah, it's like right now, it's like, if you want to be popular, it's like sing songs about drugs and getting pussy and like, you know what I mean? It's like, it works. It still works if you want to just sing about these things. But it's like, I don't know. I don't think it's very interesting.
- [44:07]
Ian
Yeah, no, I mean, there's a. There's a. And I mean, it's not necessarily unique to this moment in the culture. It's always existed, but it does feel maybe more popular or more common than it has in the past. Just this, like, escapist kind of quality to a lot of media out there that, you know, people just don't really want to use it to do anything other than. And yeah, you know, like, fantasize about, like, I'm making tons of money or I'm having a great time going out with my friends, or, you know, I'm a hotshot pussy. Getter or something. Like, it's like.
- [44:44]
Benjamin Booker
But you need these things. You sure do need them. But I'm saying, like, you gotta have a little bit.
- [44:49]
Ian
That can't be it. You know that you gotta have a. You gotta have a well balanced diet.
- [44:53]
Benjamin Booker
It's the same thing with the superhero movies and stuff.
- [44:55]
Ian
Totally.
- [44:56]
Benjamin Booker
It's just like, people are just trying to get out of there. If you show and tell, then I show and tell if you show and tell, then I'll show and tell if you say that you will then I say that I will if you say that you will then I'll say I will and though I know I can't see you I get the feeling there's more. Can I ask you something that is, again, Bob related?
- [45:38]
Ian
Please.
- [45:39]
Benjamin Booker
So my old manager, who I. I still remain friends with, he's. He's. He's a homie of mine, but his dad is Barry Goldberg, who has the only record that Bob Dylan has ever produced. Have you guys ever talked about this record, Baring Goldberg?
- [45:59]
Ian
What record is this?
- [46:00]
Benjamin Booker
Let me try to find the name of the record. But. So he was a keyboardist for Bob at some point, Barry Goldberg.
- [46:11]
Ian
Let's see. Okay, so Barry Goldberg played keyboards with the Paul Butterfield Band. Okay, sure. Right there in. Okay. Goldberg's self titled album was released in 74, produced by Bob Dylan and Jerry Wexler. Wow.
- [46:23]
Benjamin Booker
Isn't that insane? So, like, he. He played keyboards. I think he was with Bob at Newport.
- [46:28]
Ian
At Newport, yeah.
- [46:30]
Benjamin Booker
Yeah. So his mom also introduced Bob, I think, to Mike Bloomfield. And so, like, there's just like this. I just want to know more about that. Wow. I. I met him several times, but, like, I haven't like, dove. They're older. I haven't dove deep into like, all that kind of stuff. But it's just like an interesting side note. I wonder how he got him to do it. And like, there's no one talking about it.
- [46:57]
Ian
Yeah. This is complete. Like, this is 100% news to me. I'm sure there are plenty of Bob heads out there who are well aware of this, but, like, never even had an inkling of awareness about this. I gotta check it out. As soon as we're off, shout out to Barry Goldberg. I'm gonna throw this on. Amazing cover. Also the vibes coming off.
- [47:14]
Benjamin Booker
It's just like, oh, the mustache, the.
- [47:16]
Ian
Stache and the aviators and this kind of like, you know, it's all brown. This is great. Oh, my God.
- [47:23]
Benjamin Booker
You're welcome.
- [47:23]
Ian
Barry Goldberg. Incredible stuff.
- [47:25]
Benjamin Booker
Yeah. And before it gets too Late. I have to give a shout out to my girl Anna at Spinning Top, who is the biggest Bob Dylan fan. Sorry I had to do that.
- [47:35]
Ian
No, please. What Bob have you been listening to recently?
- [47:41]
Benjamin Booker
Ooh. I mean, I would say that like I throw Bob on occasionally now. I'm kind of, I've kind of been like a New Morning guy for a while now. That's like my most, like, it's like a breezy bop, you know what I mean?
- [47:57]
Ian
It is breezy.
- [47:59]
Benjamin Booker
The disdain in your voice is.
- [48:01]
Ian
No, I, listen, I was talking about making peace with the movie earlier. I made my peace with New Morning too. There's some great songs on New Morning. The Man In Me, one of the all time great Bob.
- [48:10]
Benjamin Booker
I like David Lucas. I like that.
- [48:12]
Ian
Dave the Locust. Fantastic. The title track, if not for you, some incredible stuff there, there.
- [48:17]
Benjamin Booker
Not his best. We. I know it's not his best, but I'm talking about just like listening to, to stuff. But more than that, I, I, I, I think that more than I listen to his music, I am so interested in him as a person. Just. You know what I mean?
- [48:32]
Ian
Sure.
- [48:33]
Benjamin Booker
And just like, I guess for a lot of artists he represents just this like insane level of artistic integrity. You know what I mean? Where it's just like, don't do whatever you want to do. You know what I mean? Like, so I read like the, I read a lot of stuff about him. Like, I, I read the Clint Halen Highland.
- [48:54]
Ian
How do you say Halen? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [48:56]
Benjamin Booker
The Double Life of Bob Dylan. Like that kind of stuff.
- [48:58]
Ian
Like, that's a long read.
- [48:59]
Benjamin Booker
Did you, I, I can't even remember everything from. I, I vaguely remember a story about like Bob Dylan fingering somebody's wife under a table while the husband was like right there. Like just like he was. There was crazy stories about Bob. Like, it, the book is cra, the book is crazy. I think that I recommend people check it out, but he seems like an insane person. Like a lot. I don't, I don't think that people are like always saying that it's an act and that he, he puts on this kind of like character. But I think he's really out there.
- [49:34]
Ian
Yeah.
- [49:34]
Benjamin Booker
Probably autistic. Yeah.
- [49:36]
Ian
I mean, it's definitely on the spectrum. I think that's, that's fair to say.
- [49:40]
Benjamin Booker
Have you ever, have you ever gotten close to me?
- [49:43]
Ian
No, no, no, no. And honestly, I don't think I would want to. It's like, you know, there's the don't meet your heroes thing. Not that I would ever be disappointed. But just like, it would be like looking into the face of God. It's like, what am I gonna say? Like, what is that interaction going to do? And, like, best case scenario, it's sort of not that awkward. And I can say I shook the man's hand. But, like, worst case scenario, it could be very bad.
- [50:11]
Benjamin Booker
It's never been good for me years, this, like, insane winter tour with Neil Young where it was just, like, me playing solo and then him playing solo.
- [50:23]
Ian
I didn't realize that for, like, a couple weeks.
- [50:25]
Benjamin Booker
And I never met him the entire time that we were doing.
- [50:28]
Ian
Never.
- [50:29]
Benjamin Booker
Never. The whole time he was dating Daryl Hannah at the time she would come down, be like, oh, great show. Loved it. Never met Neil the whole time his family was there, everybody was there. Never, never saw him. And then, like, after somebody from his camp, I won't say who it was, we saw him in the airport and he was like, sorry, you didn't get to meet Neil. He's an asshole. So I think it's just, like, checks out. Whatever. Yeah, it's like, I think that if he messed up Harvest Moon for me and on the beach, I'd be really bummed about that.
- [50:59]
Ian
Exactly.
- [51:00]
Benjamin Booker
Yeah.
- [51:00]
Ian
It's like, you know, things are great the way they are, you know, I don't. I don't need. I'm not going to get any sort of personal, you know, fulfillment necessarily out of, like, being annoying to Bob Dylan one time, you know?
- [51:13]
Benjamin Booker
Exactly, exactly. Yeah. I went to his coffee shop in Santa Monica.
- [51:17]
Ian
In Santa Monica.
- [51:17]
Benjamin Booker
I didn't even know that that was his at the time. I was.
- [51:20]
Ian
It's very low profile.
- [51:21]
Benjamin Booker
Yeah, very low profile.
- [51:24]
Ian
He's got, like, a boxing gym there, too, or he did have a boxing gym there where he would, like, you know, do boxing.
- [51:31]
Benjamin Booker
You know, he seems to have this, like, weird kind of like. Don't you feel like there's a side of him that, like, it's not. Especially when watching the movie, you see him, like, riding the motorcycles and, like, being the ladies man. It seems like he's, like, playing this, like, movie version of, like, what a tough man, like, kind of guy should be. You know what I mean? Like, it's like a very. Kind of like, not like, he's so, like, avant garde and, like, progressive in so many ways, but then he also comes off as this kind of, like, 50s, kind of like dudes dude. You know what I mean?
- [52:02]
Ian
Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, he's. He's very image aware, you know, conscious of the image that he's putting. And you see this, you know, all throughout his, his career, you know, certainly as he's aged into his, like, later, you know, 20s and last 20, 30 years or so, you know, where he's kind of adopted this almost like, western cowboy type perspective or Persona, where he's, like, always in the hat and he's got, like, the nudie suits and the boots and like, he almost feels like a man that has just, like, like, been zapped in from 1890 all of a sudden. But, yeah, speaking.
- [52:38]
Benjamin Booker
I saw, I saw him in concert earlier this year.
- [52:43]
Ian
You saw one of the rough and rowdy shows.
- [52:45]
Benjamin Booker
I saw one of the ref. Did you go to the. You see him several, probably.
- [52:49]
Ian
Oh, yeah, yeah. I've seen him many times. I, I, I only saw him on the Outlaw tour this, this past year, the one he was doing with, like, Willie and John Mellencamp and stuff, the outdoor thing. Well, he still. Oh, yeah, absolutely. It's amazing. Just like, I mean, Bob's in his 80s, Willie's in his 90s, and they're still just, like, able to do. It's unbelievable. Unfathomable to me.
- [53:09]
Benjamin Booker
Yeah. I took way too many edibles. It was insane. I almost called this album the highest I've ever been was at a Bob Dylan concert. I tried.
- [53:18]
Ian
Oh, my God.
- [53:19]
Benjamin Booker
And my little.
- [53:20]
Ian
Probably would have gotten a little more kind of play on Bob Twitter if you had managed. Not that that's a very commercially valuable.
- [53:28]
Benjamin Booker
Space online, but, yeah, it wasn't. I think that maybe I could have gotten away with the name, but, like, especially for, like, merch and stuff, that they were this. The sue level was very high.
- [53:40]
Ian
Yeah. High risk, maybe low reward on that. Well, what, I mean, besides being extremely high. What'd you think?
- [53:47]
Benjamin Booker
Honestly, I couldn't even tell you. I. It was literally, it was a blur. I thought that I was taking, I think 10. I thought, I think I thought I was taking 15 milligrams and I ended up taking 8, 80. And so, like, as the lights are going down, I was just like, I can't even describe it. It's the highest I've ever been.
- [54:04]
Ian
Did you make it through the whole thing?
- [54:06]
Benjamin Booker
I did make it through the whole thing and, like, ran out of the building as soon as those.
- [54:10]
Ian
Well done.
- [54:11]
Benjamin Booker
From what I remember, though I do think that the vocals, everything was pretty solid to me, to be honest with you.
- [54:16]
Ian
Yeah, no, I mean, he's, he's got it down now, typically on, on the most recent tour, at least, it's been in many cases long. Like, the first two, three songs are, like, weird and don't always sound great because, like, he doesn't like to do sound checks and, like, the mics are always in weird places. But, like, once he actually gets up on stage and the guys behind the soundboard can, like, figure out what's going on, they're typically able to kind of get him dialed in very nicely.
- [54:38]
Benjamin Booker
Yeah, totally.
- [54:40]
Ian
Do you get high and go to a lot of shows?
- [54:42]
Benjamin Booker
No, I don't. I have a kid, so I think it was one of those nights where I was like, dad's not out. And, like, yeah, it didn't turn out.
- [54:50]
Ian
Yeah, that's. I used to. You know, I used to do that plenty of time. I remember I went to an Animal Collective show, like, in the. This would have been like, Strawberry Jam era with a couple of my friends. Yeah, yeah. And we all, you know, got extremely high, and one of my friends, like, got, you know, even more high than it sounds like you were. And he just, like, started yakking all over the floor. And so we had to get out of there, like, two songs in, and then he was just, like, passed out in the car driving home, and we literally thought he was, like, dying playing. You know, he was fine. He was just extremely high. But it was like, that's. I. I'm much more about, like, let's just go in and, like, have a beer and, like, enjoy the show and, you know, head home afterwards at this point. But that's.
- [55:34]
Benjamin Booker
Regret it, because I feel like I was like, I had. Because tickets were a hundred and seventy dollars, and I was like. I was like, ah, this is. It could be the last time. It's like, there might not be another time, because I saw one and maybe like, 2010, 2011, like, he played, but it was, like, in an arena at my school, and it was horrible.
- [55:54]
Ian
Horrible.
- [55:55]
Benjamin Booker
I didn't even stay to. I didn't even stay till the end.
- [55:58]
Ian
You said 2010, 11, something like that. Yeah, that was a tough. You know, I think, like, 2007-2012, 13. That's kind of like the low. The nadir of his most recent live performances. So you just. You caught him in the wrong year, unfortunately. Well, speaking of live shows, let's throw another one of these professional segues back in here. You're about to go out on tour. You're the first time in a couple years, right?
- [56:25]
Benjamin Booker
Oh, my God. First time in probably five years. It's been a long time. I might not have it, people. We'll see.
- [56:31]
Ian
I guess. We will see. It seems Like a pretty unique challenge trying to integrate the new record and the new sound with, with the old records and the, you know, previous sounds and direction. Like, what's, what's the, like what is the plan? How, how are you, are you going to do that? How are you going to do that?
- [56:52]
Benjamin Booker
I'm going to play, I'm going to play a few old songs and a few new songs in the record. I, I, I, really, again, it's like, I, I know that you are supposed to think, think about the people, but I just, I can't. It's like if I'm not into it, I just can't do it. You know what I mean? So I think I, I think I'll play like a few old songs, the, the hits, you know what I mean? Give them a couple hits, throw them a bone. But, but yeah, I think it's gonna be mostly the new stuff. Luckily I've got this incredible drummer, Mickey, who plays with this group, Pan African Orchestra and like goes on tour. Like a lot of hip hop guys like Pink Sifu, that kind of stuff and then music. Kenny's playing a lot of like the album, like kind of like samples and like bass and like those kinds of things live. And I'm doing some guitar stuff, so. Yeah. Cool.
- [57:44]
Ian
So it'll be sort of a rock ish type ish setup, literally, like with the instruments and stuff. But it's going to be more kind of geared towards the new sound.
- [57:54]
Benjamin Booker
Yes. I mean, some of it, some of it is just kind of impossible to play live.
- [57:59]
Ian
Right.
- [57:59]
Benjamin Booker
You know what I mean? There's no way to do it. But I also had no desire to do that. It's, it wasn't like we went into a studio and like jammed these songs out live and like did it like that. So it's like there's no reason to try to do it now. I don't, I don't think so.
- [58:15]
Ian
Totally.
- [58:16]
Benjamin Booker
But it's a weird time because it's like, I think that honestly the technology just isn't there to do a lot of stuff. Like when you listen to like electronic artists live, or you go see them live there, or hip hop people who make stuff like that, it's just them standing with the microphone, you know what I mean? Like, yeah.
- [58:34]
Ian
And with the might as well not even be. I mean, it's like there's a. What I always appreciate about a live show is like playing the music live, you know? And like.
- [58:43]
Benjamin Booker
Well, I'm kind of going against that a little bit.
- [58:46]
Ian
Really. Okay.
- [58:47]
Benjamin Booker
Because it's like, I do. I think that part of working on albums like this and when you do see hip hop people or electronic musicians is like. Like there's so much time spent on the sounds. And like, if. If you're not playing it live and you're doing like samples and things like that, there. There's so much. It's so much easier to kind of tweak things to be exactly like you want them. So trying to recreate that live is not the point. It's like, I made this. This is what I want you to hear is like this exact thing. Sure. So that for a lot of. For me, I guess it's like, yeah, I don't want to hear a rapper try to recreate this with a live band. I want to hear what's on the record. Loud as. That's what I want to hear. Sure. That's why I'm going to the show. So this. This is kind of like a mix of both where it's like there's going to be some samples and stuff, but there's enough live elements that it could definitely fall apart. That's. That's point. I think that that's what people want, you know.
- [59:53]
Ian
Exactly. You gotta be walking that tightrope there that. I mean, I think that sounds like what I, you know, would want out of it. You know, it's what I. What I hate is when you go to a show and it's just like the person up there and a backing track and like, there isn't really any sort of sense of danger or like, inventiveness or like the possibility for like, something new and exciting and unexpected to happen. Right. And so clearly it sounds like that possibility is definitely going to exist at these shows.
- [60:24]
Benjamin Booker
Yeah, people. I mean, I definitely am not good enough at anything for it to be safe, so we should be fine.
- [60:34]
Ian
Hell, yeah. I think you're playing the chapel here in San Francisco, which is right down the street from me. So hopefully I'll come and come and sample the show myself.
- [60:42]
Benjamin Booker
Yeah, I'm excited to get back to San Francisco. The last time I played a show there was so long ago, but it was cool. I saw John Waters. That was awesome.
- [60:51]
Ian
Oh, word. Yeah, there's still, you know, it's a weird place. There's still some cool people around. A lot of the, you know, scene has. Has migrated down south towards Los Angeles at this point. Although, you know, here we are speaking as. Yeah, literally, you know, the city is. Is engulfed in flames right now. Hopefully by the time this episode comes out, the Fires will be out at least, you know, obviously damage not repaired.
- [61:14]
Benjamin Booker
I wonder if Bob is. I wonder if he's okay. I. I actually know somebody who lives directly next door to Bob Dylan.
- [61:21]
Ian
Really? Down there.
- [61:22]
Benjamin Booker
The house? Yeah, the house next door to Bob Dylan. His place is. Okay, It's. But it's like right on the line. He. I have to tell you this. He told me once that Bob had these broken down vehicles like in his.
- [61:38]
Ian
Yard, like just like sitting around the property.
- [61:41]
Benjamin Booker
Just like a dirt bike, just like a car, like that kind of stuff. He showed me pictures of it. So he just like jokingly just like. I think he talked to somebody who works at the house or like left a letter in the mailbox and was like, hey, Bob, if you ever need somebody to fix those up, like I've got a guy. Within days, it might have even been the next day a fence, huge fence put up.
- [62:04]
Ian
Fence?
- [62:05]
Benjamin Booker
Yeah, from the neighbor. Like he, he got a note saying like, do you want me to fix these cars up? Like a joking, like friendly kind of thing. Fence up the nest.
- [62:13]
Ian
Oh my God. Beautiful.
- [62:16]
Benjamin Booker
That.
- [62:16]
Ian
You know what a man. That sounds like, Bob. That's. And see, that's exactly why I don't want to meet the man. Because you try to. You try to offer to fix up his dirt bikes and then, you know, a giant prison colony fence goes up the next day.
- [62:29]
Benjamin Booker
He does reach out to people though. I saw like Lenny Kravitz talking about him. Just like meeting up and like walking around in the rain for three hours, like stuff like that.
- [62:36]
Ian
You're like, him and Lenny Kravitz?
- [62:38]
Benjamin Booker
Yes.
- [62:38]
Ian
Whoa.
- [62:39]
Benjamin Booker
That's what I'm saying. It's like, who is this man?
- [62:42]
Ian
Wild. Lenny Kravitz is not the first person I would assume that Bob would want. But you know, then again, he's like name checked. He gave some interview.
- [62:49]
Benjamin Booker
The Arctic Monkeys.
- [62:50]
Ian
Yeah, Remember he like likes them and I think he name checked like Klaxons, which is like a 15 year old, like British, you know, like it's new. New Raven nose.
- [63:01]
Benjamin Booker
Yeah, it must be his kids. I met one of his kids once.
- [63:06]
Ian
Jacob Jesse.
- [63:07]
Benjamin Booker
Sam.
- [63:08]
Ian
Sam.
- [63:09]
Benjamin Booker
Is Sam a kid?
- [63:10]
Ian
Maybe?
- [63:10]
Benjamin Booker
Am I making that up?
- [63:11]
Ian
I mean, he has many kids, some of whom are not even known, to be honest.
- [63:15]
Benjamin Booker
Can we get a fact check on this? Is there.
- [63:16]
Ian
Is there same Dylan? There is someone named Sam Dylan. Although this does not appear to be a Bob Dylan child. Actually, you know what? No, you're right. Sam Dillon, born July 30, 1968. There you go. Bomb and Sarah's fourth child.
- [63:32]
Benjamin Booker
Wow. Yeah, I met him years ago, and he was on ayahuasca trip at the time. Like, not on a trip at the time, but he was. That's what all we talked about was ayahuasca, so. I don't know. I. I don't know. I don't know. It's.
- [63:48]
Ian
You know, he's. As the movie. As the movie makes clear. The man is a complete unknown.
- [63:54]
Benjamin Booker
Yeah, he's got a lot of kids that I. To find out that he has black. Like, he has a black daughter like Brittany. It's just like, who is this guy?
- [64:02]
Ian
Yeah, he married his, you know, one of the women who worked with him, like, as a backup singer for a couple years in the late 70s, early 80s. Carolyn Dennis. And yeah, they have. I think her name's Gabby Gabrielle. And, you know, she's just. She is his daughter and. But, like, you know, anything beyond his, like, original relationship with Sarah and, like, you know, Jacob and Jesse and stuff, like, he's kept so far out of the private, you know, public eye that it, you know, he's.
- [64:32]
Benjamin Booker
He's. I want a movie about him in Mavis. That's what I really.
- [64:36]
Ian
Me too. Yes.
- [64:37]
Benjamin Booker
Honestly, I know all about this because I know Mavis and, like, she is so, like, I can understand why he would be into her and why he looked up to her when. When she was young. I mean, Mavis is a legend. Like, she's.
- [64:50]
Ian
Yeah, one of the one, you know, Michael Jackson.
- [64:53]
Benjamin Booker
His Shimon comes from Maven Staples. That's Mavis Staples. She does the Shmones.
- [64:57]
Ian
Wow.
- [64:57]
Benjamin Booker
So, like, I don't know. I can understand why I liked her, but there's nothing out there about any of this stuff.
- [65:02]
Ian
Yeah, well, hopefully we'll get, you know, the Mavis tell all at some. At some point.
- [65:08]
Benjamin Booker
The time is ticking away.
- [65:10]
Ian
Oh, well, we might be able to leave there. This was fantastic. Thank you so much. But this was hopefully not too. Jumping all over the place for you. But it's great when we can just kind of, like, hop around and, you know, bullshit about whatever instead of having, you know, the typical rundown of press approved, you know, who are your influences? Type of questions.
- [65:35]
Benjamin Booker
Yeah. Thank you so much. I. I enjoy the show and I'm. I'm happy you're doing it. This, this is the best Bob podcast out there, even though you guys are doing a lot more different stuff these days.
- [65:45]
Ian
Yeah, we're, you know, we're. We're. We're branching out there, trying to turn this into not Just a one note. One note. Operation Bob would be proud.
- [65:53]
Benjamin Booker
I think you'd like that.
- [65:54]
Ian
That's the idea, you know, strike another match, start anew, as someone once said.
- [65:59]
Benjamin Booker
All right, take it easy. I know it's not just survival, and I know what you did to get there. And I know everything is turning. And I know you can look.
- [66:33]
Ian
Thanks again again to Benjamin Booker. The album is lower available now. And catch him out there on tour across these United States soon. I think literally in the next couple weeks he's kicking off this tour. First one, like he said. In about five years, it'll be all over the place. Drop a link in the episode description here to cop tickets and give the record a spin. It's really great stuff. You know, it doesn't necessarily bear a ton of resemblance to, you know, the beach, the Beach Boys or Randy Newman, you know, any of our most recent obsessions here, but it does bear resemblance in one very important vector, and that is, of course, it's. It's good music. And as we say around here, folks.
- [67:27]
Benjamin Booker
Jokerman, without me down here, I know that I.