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Jokerman podcast is brought to you by Distrokid and their new direct to fan tool. Allowing any artist to sell merch. Distrokid Direct allows artists to create a merch store in minutes without any upfront costs or any technical skills or know how they'll take care of all the logistics and the nitty gritty. And as with distribution through Distrokid, they never take a cut of the proceeds. You, the artist, keep 100% of your earnings. Once again, that's Distrokid Direct. Open a store today@distrokid.com direct. Welcome back to Jokerman In Conversation, I'm Ian Today joined by Carl Newman, better known as the man behind the New Pornographers. Little bit of a personally significant conversation here today with Carl. I get into some of the Ian lore with him on the recording, but this is a big band for my dad, actually, man, that I've credited many times with my interest in rock songs. And really, frankly, the existence of this podcast, to a certain extent, New Pornos were always more his group than they were mine. Although I dug them too, obviously. How can you not? That meant, you know, precocious young me, 13, 14, 15 years old, was listening to Twin Cinema Mass Romantic Challengers. I don't think I mentioned it, Carl, but that was. That's always been my favorite New Pornographer's record. Anyways, listening to, listening to all of that way back when, it's actually where I first heard the man, Dan Behar. He's in the context of the New Pornographers, the Canadian indie rock supergroup par excellence, to use some frequently used terminology, some lazy terminology, frankly, that the indie press has thrown around throughout their career. Anyways, they are back once again with New Record, the former site of another splendid collection of songwriting gems, although a little different, a little different than you might expect from New Pornographers. Catchiness quotient dialed down just a little bit and in its place, I don't know, something darker or higher contrast, more severe. Really fascinating direction. Anyways, Carl Newman, great songwriter, great hang, obviously. Talk a little bit about everything here, including a little bit of geese chat. His own father, son, rock songs, bonding experience. Here he is, Mr. Carl Newman.
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They're not strangers. They really are. They're not strangers. They rarely are.
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It's just the last payphone.
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B
Nothing major, man. It's just the last painful.
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A
Nothing major.
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B
Mad. It's just the last painful.
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Carl Newman, welcome to Jokerman. Thank you so much for joining us.
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B
Hey, thanks for having me.
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Pleasure's. Pleasure's all mine. I'll, you know, just dispense with the personal, you know, relevance and connection right up front. You know, I'm like 30. How old am I? 33. And so few years behind you. But my dad was a huge, just like the world's biggest, like mass romantic and twin cinema fan, you know, 20, 25 years ago or whatever at this point. And so ripe old, you know, maybe 12 year old, 14 year old me got a healthy dose of the New Pornographers and I thought, you know, wow, listen to the name of that band. That's such a badass name for a band as a young lad. So I've been.
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B
You're like, they must be dangerous.
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A
Exactly. Honestly, I thought that you were pretty dangerous.
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B
That was all part of the plan to seem dangerous to kids, just weird to adults.
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A
Let me tell you, as a, you know, as a 14 year old in the Southern California suburbs, it came off. So it's cool. It's great to be getting to talk to you here.
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B
Oh, I'm glad.
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A
Well, the new record, the former site of the New Pornographers as we speak here today. I'm not sure exactly when this episode will run, probably in the not too distant future, but we're talking here Monday, March 30th. The record just made its way out into the world this past Friday, March 27th. What has been. I'm always interested to hear from the actual artists, what they think of the world's reception to their art to the extent that you're even aware of it or trying to pay attention to it. How has the latest been received out there?
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B
I think it's been good. I mean, people, our press people send emails with pull quotes, you know, and it's just like, oh, the Guardian said something nice or whatever it is, you know, sure, here's, here's a nice little pull quote from Pace then. And I've just gone through those and I'm like, okay, that's nice, but I don't, I don't really want to. I don't really want to read any of the reviews. Yeah, like, like somebody wrote me. Somebody wrote me recently and said like, it's like, I'm so sorry, that's a drag that Pitchfork had to mention Joe. And I was like, well, I didn't know that. I didn't know that. So you're the bringer of bad news.
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A
You're bringing me down, man.
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B
Yeah. All right, you need to apologize for your, for your text. But no, I'm really. I say, I use Zen, I use the Word Zen to describe it. I try, I try not to let the good or the bad. I don't want anybody to have that much of an effect on how I feel about the music, you know.
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Sure.
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B
Like if you, you know, if somebody attacks you. Yeah. Your ego feels bruised, you feel sad, you feel, you know, but if somebody praises you, you know, then they're. That inflates your ego and maybe that's not the best thing either. So I just try to be even, I just try to be even keel. Just like appreciate the people that like us.
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A
Sure.
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B
You know, and even try and understand the people that don't. Even though it seems insane to me, but you know. Yeah.
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A
It always seems like it's gotta be. Well, I guess maybe it doesn't have to be, but you know, like you've been working on this. I mean, the last record came out what, three years ago at this point.
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B
Right.
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2023. So it's not like you, you know, started writing these songs the day after that last record came out. But you know, presumably some of them
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B
actually I started writing before that record came out.
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Oh, geez. Okay, well, so then that even makes my point, you know, even stronger for me is like, you know, you're working on this collection of songs for some number of years, two years, three years, I guess it sounds like maybe even longer than three years. And then all of a sudden there's the one day when it comes out and everyone can hear it. And then it's like, yeah, there's like a 600 word write up in the Guardian or whatever or a Pitchfork review. And then it's just like, and then it's just on to the next set of albums for all the music press to look at and you know, literally just the next day, you know, so being tuned into reception to me as the artist strikes me as a way to get sort of, you know, turn your album release day into an anti climax of sorts. So this sounds like the healthy way to approach it.
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B
Yeah, I mean, I, I, and also like, you know, kind of what I started saying, like, you know, the, maybe the press just like writes about it and they move on. Well, I feel like I kind of made, made it and I moved on. You know, like I'm, I'm work, like I'm, I'm in the middle of doing other things, you know.
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A
Sure.
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B
I mean this record was really weird. Like you talk about, you talk about the, the last record came out in 2023. We started mixing songs on this record at the end of 2023.
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A
Wow.
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B
Like. Like, I. Like, I really wanted. I really wanted. I mean, I feel like the songs have changed and maybe a couple have been added and rewritten. And there's a. There's a point where, like, I thought the record was almost done and I couldn't get. I couldn't get Nico, Like, I couldn't get Nico to call me back. Like, it was live. Literally a year where her to, like, answer a text.
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She's a busy woman these days.
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Yeah, I guess. So I'm told. So I felt like we waited. Literally waited a year. I just sat on the record, like, about. I think it was about eight months or a year, trying to get Nico to sing on it. And then, you know, I got her. I got her thing on it. And then, like, you know, and then we. And then we mixed it, you know, and also, like, the songs kind of changed. Like, we started mixing, but then I went back and like, okay, I know what to do here. You know, sometimes the songs will be mixed and I'll just pull them apart. Sure. And. But even. But it helps because you have good drum sounds. You know, you've started the mixing. So, like, everything is sounding good. So that. That helps a lot. And then right at the point where it's like, oh, I think we're pretty close to having a record. Everything except exploded with that thing that happened last year. And I was like, well, you know, I guess everything's. Everything's going on, you know, everything's going on the back burner again. So it was some ups and downs. It sounds weird. So here we are. Here we are in, like. It's bizarre. Yeah. This record, which, in my brain, we started, like, mixing in 2023, just came out in, what, like March 2026.
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A
That's interesting to me. So, I mean, does the music. Do you feel, I don't know, like, distant or more distant from these songs and where you were at when you were writing them, you know, considering.
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B
No, because they, you know, like, there were things I like, you know, we replayed and re sung and we rearranged, but it was all very applicable, you know, like, what happened in our real life was not that far thematically from what I was, like, writing about in songs. Because I think a lot of these songs are just trying to, like, like overcoming loss or, like, how do we. Not even overcoming loss? Like, how do we deal with loss?
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Just handling it. Yeah.
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Yeah. And. And so it fit. It fit very. It fit very much. And. And after everything happened, I thought, well, you've. You've got the opportunity here to write about what happened. And I tried to do that. I tried to do that and I just thought, well, there's nothing, you know, like I couldn't, I couldn't figure out a way to do it. Yeah, like, but, but a song like Calligraphy I think was very, was very much about social media in the way that we, I guess very literally how poisonous it is.
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Sure.
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You know, you know, because I saw the one thing that struck me was like, we're not the, we weren't the victims in this, in this story. You know, we were part of it because of our name and we got thrown into it and in a very public way. But you know, there were, there were, there were, there was a family that was the absolute victim that got like destroyed by everything that happened and realizing that that family needed, after it all happened, they also needed protection from the Internet, you know, because, because people were trying to dox them. People are trying to go, oh, here, here they, here, here, here they are. You know, here's what they look like, here's where they live. Which is, which is just adding, you know, like gasoline onto the fire, you know. And it just made me think like, oh, like the, the one call I think are the one or that I got was like, could you tell people that we're going along with police? Could you tell, could you tell, could you tell people that we have nothing to do with this, that we are victims? And that, and that really, and that really struck me. So I think, I think when I was writing calligraphy, I was feeling a little defiant and angry. When I started writing songs like, you know, the trick with poison, you sit. God knows it's Armageddon somewhere. You know, it was, it was just very much, you know, just very much about how the way we, I feel like the world is not psychologically, it does. Like the Internet does not make people psychologically healthy. No, I mean, but it's hard to, it's hard to write about something like that. I mean, obviously I wrote about it in a kind of obtuse, elliptical way, but I didn't want it to come off like the Internet is being mean to me.
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Right. Self pitying or anything.
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Because I didn't, because I honestly didn't go on the, I didn't go on the Internet.
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A
You know, it seems like probably the healthiest choice you could have made.
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Oh yeah. I can't see any reason why I would want to know what was going on. What was going on there. But you know, but it's, it's It's a strange thing to write about, you know, because. Yeah, like. Like I said, writing about social media, you don't want to come off like a whiner. And in a way, it seems like such an unimportant thing to write about.
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Right.
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But it's also what's consuming people's lives and it's. And it's changing the way people think and it's changing the way people experience the world. So it's, you know, it's quite bad,
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you know, to say the least.
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But, you know, at the other. At the other side of it, just. Just to give it. Just to give a positive. Just to give a shot of positive to. To technology, I've been. I've been going on, like, Apple music where they have something called a Discovery Channel.
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Okay.
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Where it just. It just plays music that it thinks you would like.
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Does it do a good job of that?
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It does an amazing job.
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Okay.
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And it's so much great music that I've. So many great bands that I've never heard of. And like, I'm amazing. Like, it's something I. I do like, on a regular basis. Like, I'll be sitting in bed before I go to bed, and I'll just, like, listen to new music that. And. And it's. And it's geared towards me. That is the crazy thing.
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A
It knows all about you.
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B
Yeah. And, you know, so not a single Taylor Swift song in the bunch, you know? No, no. Bts, you know, I. I just think about that because it's, It's. It's such a cool thing that, that you can, like, these days, you have, like, all the world's music at your fingertip.
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Sure.
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You know, and if you, if you use technology for that, I mean, it's. It's amazing. And, you know, and when I. Maybe it's just me because I. From the era I come from, but when I hear something on there that I really love, I think I gotta go buy this album, you know? Of course I gotta go buy this album. And it's funny. It's funny to see like. Like the random differences. Like, I bought them. I bought a couple of records by these bands called Deep Time, who are. Who are a great band from Texas who are gone now. They run Hardly Art and then another band called Dirt Dress from la.
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A
Okay.
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B
And I got their. Their albums, like, on vinyl for very cheap. It was like $5 plus shipping.
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A
Wow.
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B
But then I was listening to this Elector lane record from 2005, and I thought, oh, this is cool. I'm Gonna get this on vinyl. And they're all $200.
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That's the state of the vinyl market these days.
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B
But, but it's, it's, it's, it's just weird to go like, oh, this record, I don't know, I'm gonna buy it. And it's like, oh, this one's goes for five, this one goes for 200. And to me there's no real difference in quality. But yeah, it's a, it's a strange thing. I should, I should have got that Electrolane record when I could. I think they were on the, I think they were on the same label in 2005. I was a missed opportunity.
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A
Yeah, man, that would have, that would have appreciated in value, like, you know, buying Apple stock or something.
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B
I could go back in time.
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A
Exactly. Yeah. You know, the Internet is a, it's a, it's a double edged sword, you know, because I certainly agree, you know, from the standpoint of just like, just look at the world out there and see what it's doing to people on a daily basis. It's like, you know, ruining people's lives. But at the same time, like, you know, speaking personally, like, the whole thing that we do here on the show, like this is only, I'm only able to do what I do because of the Internet, you know, and, and there's a really great community that has sort of assembled around the show in terms of listeners and I've gotten to speak to so many of my favorite artists and I go to so many shows and like, it's. For me personally, it's been, you know, really healthy and empowering and important and just like uniformly positive impact on my life. But at the same time, I look at everyone else around me in the world and it just seems like it's people, you know, putting a gun to their temple and pulling the trigger on a daily basis. It's tough to, you know, that dissonance. I don't know, it's hard for me to figure it out, you know, but
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B
I mean, I think that a lot of, a lot of human relationships are like that, you know, Right. Like it's, it's like my, like my son is entering his teens, you know, and I don't know what, you know, he's still kind of, he's still a kid. But I'm like, oh, no, it's like, but you know, it's like, oh, he's going and watching movies over at a girl's house now. You know, like that kind of thing is happening. They were they're all watching get out and they're 13. And. And. And I think to it, you know, like, I want to say to him, like, yes, this is kind of a cool time, but it can also wreck you, you know, like, you know, like, you're entering a world where, like, your. Your heart can be broken in a new way that you never felt yet, you know, and. And, you know, so. And it's a great thing, but, you know, if your brain is not in the right place, it can really wreck a person. You up?
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A
Yeah.
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B
And I think. Yeah. Loving the Internet. They're similar. Yeah. Like, you just. You just, you know, you just got to be. Or even, like, just diet, you know, even just, like, the food you eat, you know, like, it's okay to eat a bag of chips. Don't eat 1,000 bags of chips.
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A
Don't eat too many bags of chips. That's right. Everything in moderation, they say, including the Internet.
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B
Take two astrons for a headache. Don't take a whole bottle.
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A
That's right.
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B
The trick with poison, you sip. God knows it's un. Getting somewhere. Action, reaction, the new calligraphy. The motion of a brush as natural, unplanned as a stick through the sand. Yeah.
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A
On the note of the album itself, you already started talking about this, but a lot of these songs dealing with loss, to me, I think loss and impermanence, that kind of comes along with it as well. The state of being and then not being and going from being to not being, you know, kind of just like that. The way that payphones seem to have in our society. For instance, did you. I don't know, did you just kind of find a thread out of what you were writing about after you had started writing about it? Or did you come into this with the idea that, like, this is. This is the area of the world that I want to make a statement about and then kind of shape each individual song according to that through line.
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B
I wasn't really trying to make a statement. I just noticed that that's. That's where it was going. Like, I don't like, like, song songs like wish you could see me, I'm killing it or bonus mai tai's were based on very real things that happened.
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A
It seemed like it.
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B
Yeah. But then, you know, other. Other songs are like spooky action and the former side of. Or great princess story or just like fiction. We're like, what I. What I imagined it would be like, you know, or battle. Battle of the last payphone also. Yeah. And. And, well, I mean, I Had the. I had the title, the former side up for a long time.
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It's a great title, I thought.
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B
Also, I. Like. I wanted to do. I felt like I wanted to do something different, so I felt it would be great. I mean, it applies to the song. It applies to the title track, the song, which is not about me. It's about, you know, something different.
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A
Sure.
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B
But I like the idea of the album being called the former site of the New Pornographers, just as a way of, like, announcing that, like, we are not the same band.
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A
Sure.
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B
That we were. Which is one way of reading it. But it's also the former site of. By the New Pornographers. It's. I don't know. It's. It's. I guess it was just hard for me to avoid, like, these themes, you know. I guess you get. You get to a point in your life, you just start thinking about it more, you know, trying or even, you know, just things. Things. Things that are not. Not things that are dying, but things that are necessarily. Or. But things that are just passing through, you know?
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A
Right.
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B
And. And you have to. And you have to realize, like. Like my. Like my son. Like, my son's in his early teens, and I think we don't get. We don't get much of this, you know, like. Like we don't get, you know, him being this age. We only get it once in the history of mankind.
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A
Sure.
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In the history of the universe. So I. I think there was the sense of, like, trying to. Trying to appreciate everything as it's passing through is what. Is. What ultimately I'd hope is like, the theme. The theme that runs through. I mean, I don't think the record is particularly joyous, but. But I think it's. I think it's about. It's a little joyous and it's, you know, it's about, you know, Hope.
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A
Yeah. Resilient hope.
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Hope. Hope. And just. And just going to the end. Getting to the end and thinking it was a nice run. Sure.
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A
I imagine that's got to be particularly relevant, you know, to someone like you in your position where, you know, the band has been running for over a quarter century at this point. And it is, you know, it is sort of. I guess, like, calling it a band of Theseus would be maybe a little bit too far because it's not like the entire thing has been remade the way that Theseus ship was, but there has been a lot of in and out over the years. Yeah. I don't know. That just seems like a particularly unique Set of circumstances, even, you know, amidst, you know, in the context of being in a rock band, that's a very unique set of circumstances. But like this particular rock band, you know, on top of that, like, there.
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B
Well, there's always been a sense of impermanence in the band. And I realized, like, I. It was just the way it was. Like, we were all shocked there kind of took off and its way, you know. Sure. And then, you know, and like, looking, looking back, I look back at like Nico and Beyjar and I think, oh, it could be that in 2001, like, this band they were in got popular, but they weren't even super into it.
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A
Right.
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B
You know, because. Because it was like they didn't. They didn't expect. None of us expected it. You know, I think they were like, yeah, I'll do some stuff on my friend's record. And then, you know, this record we made, all made together, kind of took off and then. And then the band became this ongoing concern. So I felt like there was years of me like taking this thing, which was like at its. At its heart, kind of impermanent, and trying to make it a steady ongoing concern. And I mean, I think, yeah, it's been a crazy. It's been a crazy thing, you know, like. Like I said, like, oh, yeah, this record, you know, this record was delayed by a year because I couldn't get Nico on the phone, you know, and like, that was the case in 1999. You know, it's just the. It's just the case of what, what the band, what the band has always been. And I think everything that happened in the last year, I think it really. Like, I feel like I dealt with it all very well, like, better than some people did in that some people just tried to, like, you know, not pay attention to it. Some people felt it very hard and it was very difficult. And some people just went, no, that didn't happen. Don't talk to me about it. That didn't happen. And, And I felt like for me it was just like looking. I mean, there are lots of personal things had nothing to do with the band, but I think in the band it was just like looking about looking at who we are and that, like, okay, yeah, maybe there is a sense of impermanence in this band. And I guess. I guess the. I guess this record was kind of embracing that sense of impermanence, you know, kind of meta. Kind of a meta answer. Sure.
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A
No, I think that that makes perfect sense. And you know, like you, you mentioned a moment ago, you Know, like, Nico and Dan being in the band initially and that being, you know, kind of the part, or, you know, part of the band, certainly on those. The first, you know, kind of records that really broke big, and then, like, also them doing their things and then you've put out your own solo records and stuff and trying to figure out how you can all still be the new Pornographers, but also let everyone do their. It just seems tricky.
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B
Yeah. Even looking back, I remember about a month after Master Romantic came out, I remember Dan calling a meeting of us together, and he said, yeah, I'm moving to Spain. And I went, okay, that's Dan. Yeah, I guess. There you go. And. And it's funny because. Because nothing had happened yet. It was like, I don't even think there had been a single piece of press. Like, the record had been out for, like, one month on the tiny little label. And so I was like, okay. And then I. You know. But then a couple of years later, he came back and it was like, hey, well, just in time for us to do another record. You want to do some songs in Shrek's record? And I didn't know if it was going to be a yes. I remember thinking like, oh, you're. You're cool. Okay, second record. You know, there was just like. And I was just remembering another funny thing. When Matador went in to sign us, you know, you meet with Chris Lombardi and Jared Kozlow, you know, the head of this super cool label, like my dream label, and you really want them to sign. You really want them to sign you. And Nico's there at the meeting going, yeah, I'm busy next year. I remember that. I was like, did you really have to say that to the label that we're hoping will sign us? But it didn't matter, you know?
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A
Certainly not.
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B
So even with all, like, the impermanence of. Of so many things in life, and even the band, you know, I. There is something to me that is very permanent about the band where I think, like, I will always, you know, like, I will always be here as long as I'm alive, wanting to make new Pornographers records. And if people don't want them anymore, well, I don't really care. Yeah, like, I'm going to give them to you anyways. And they might not sound like you want them to sound, but again, it's not really my concern, you know, Like, I'm. I'm trying to make the records that I feel I want to make, you know, like, you know what, you know, Rick Rubin, you know, he's been. He's been in pop culture a lot recently because of his book, but he talks about how, like, you have to make the record for yourself.
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A
Sure.
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B
You know, like, it. It has to be for yourself above all things. And so I just think of that, you know, it's. Remember, you're always making these records for yourself. You're making music. I guess at the heart of it, you're making the music you want to hear. Like, you're making music you wish was there.
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A
No, I mean, that's. And I think that that, like, really reveals itself over the course of, you know, decades. Really. Like, on. On the podcast here, we typically look at, like, you know, Bob Dylan, Lou Reed, the Beach Boys, Randy Newman, these people who have assembled discographies, you know, not just in. In years, but in. In decades, in close to, you know, quarter centuries, half centuries in some cases. And like that. Like, that's where continuing to do it, whether or not the market wants it, whether or not you're doing the best records you've ever done. You know, see a lot of, you know, Bob Dylan's records in the 80s, for instance, like, just continuing to do it like that.
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B
Infidels was a good record.
- [31:08]
A
Oh, Infidels is fantastic. Absolutely. But, you know, there's.
- [31:10]
B
Hey, man. So your podcast is named after, called Jokerman.
- [31:13]
A
Yeah, come on. But, you know, maybe Knocked out, loaded and down in the groove. Those are not quite up to par.
- [31:19]
B
No, I don't know those records at all.
- [31:22]
A
You probably don't need to.
- [31:24]
B
I bought. I bought. I bought Infidels when it came out.
- [31:27]
A
Damn. You were listening to Bob back in 1983.
- [31:30]
B
Well, you know, I think it was when I just started listening to music, you know.
- [31:34]
A
Sure.
- [31:37]
B
And I think. I think I knew the greatest hits. I think I had a greatest hits cassette or something or greatest hits album, and that was the new record. And I remember hearing Joker man and thinking, that's a great song.
- [31:48]
A
And it is a great song.
- [31:50]
B
It is. It is. To me, I think it is his last, like, classic Bob Dylan song, you know, like.
- [31:57]
A
Like, it's like.
- [31:58]
B
It's like it's the last Bob Dylan song that sounds exactly like a classic from, like, Blonde on Blonde.
- [32:04]
A
I see what you mean.
- [32:06]
B
Like, he's written, you know, there's songs like, what's that popular one? Like, you know, the one. Everybody's covered it. I think Adele covered it.
- [32:14]
A
Yeah. To make you feel my love.
- [32:16]
B
Oh, to make you feel my love.
- [32:18]
A
Yeah, exactly. Billy Joel's done it. Adele Exactly.
- [32:21]
B
Yeah. It's like, it's a great song but like for the longest time I didn't know that was a Bob Dylan song.
- [32:26]
A
I think a lot of people don't.
- [32:28]
B
There is nothing particularly. It's not possessed by like his unique genius.
- [32:33]
A
It's not Dylan esque. Yeah. It's sort of craftsman level.
- [32:36]
B
Just. It's just a good song. Right, Exactly. But yeah, so yeah, Jokerman is the last one where like he has, you know, he's still using all the, you know, it's got the very, the very Dylan esque lyrics and the killer, the killer hook chorus.
- [32:53]
A
Absolutely. Joker man dance to the nightingale tune. Yeah, it's certainly got a sense of a scent of, you know, 60s Dylan and the magisterial lyricism that, you know, he's put out plenty of classic records and songs over the last two, three decades also, but they sound qualitatively different. They seem to be written almost by a different human being. Anyways, like that practice. That's what's interesting, you know, is the fact that he turns into a different person after 30 something years and then continues to make records and then continues to do that for another 30 something years. So like, you know, I think that's what's valuable about when you say like I'm gonna keep making new Pornographers records whether or not anyone wants them. Like that I think is the only real and right and true way to approach the practice of art making is like to completely disregard the market entirely. Who cares about that as long as you have a roof over your head? Everyone that's good enough. But when you're looking at things in decades and centuries, that's when the full picture really starts to come into focus.
- [33:59]
B
And I gotta say, I think about things like that in that I feel very lucky and that, you know, like, I'm here, I'm here in my house. I'm here in my house that my two decades of playing music has paid for. And I have my little studio space, however humble, my little 12 by 24 studio space. And, and I can go in there and I can work on my music and I don't have to have a job. And you know, my, my wife has a decent job. And you know, it's like between, you know, like all, like all the, all the money making I needed to do to like really get ahead in the world, you know, that was like, that was like in the past, you know, that was like the money I needed for a down payment, you know, like all that stuff. Sure. And now it's like, here we have our little life, and, like, if she has her job and I make some money making music, you know, far less than I used to, then, you know, we're okay. There's not a lot of stress. There's not a lot resting on my shoulders anymore, and that helps. It means you can. It's great to be able to just make music and not. And not worry about it, or even having a home studio, not worrying about. We're wasting time. Because I've been in the studio where people go, come on. Like, it costs this much. We're paying $800 a day for the studio. And I go, yeah, but I want to do this thing. It's going to be cool. It's like, no, we don't have enough time for you to experiment. And I, you know, I like the fact that I can. I can sit at home and I can do all those things now. I feel pretty grateful. Grateful about it.
- [35:41]
A
Absolutely. No, I feel, you know, on a much smaller scale, I feel. I feel similarly here. The fact that I'm sitting here talking to you on the computer and, like, you know, the money I make from podcasting pays for a mortgage here. It's like, you know, imagine that. That I can just, like, get to talk to again some of my favorite artists about music, and then, like, that's. That helps me, like, live and exist in this world. What a. What a blessing.
- [36:06]
B
Oh, yeah, it's. It's an amazing. You know, because not many people get to do what they want to do.
- [36:12]
A
Exactly.
- [36:13]
B
It's like, hardly any. I mean, it's like this whole. This whole society is based on people, you know, spending three quarters of their life doing something they hate. And then as a reward, they get to stop.
- [36:27]
A
Right. You know, for a few years before you die.
- [36:31]
B
Yeah. And then they don't know what to do with themselves. Then they're like, what should I do? I guess I should start painting or something. You know, like, nobody. Nobody has any. You know, all these people that had no lives except for their jobs that they hated. And I think it's kind of, you know, it's been so normalized, and to me, it just seems like, shouldn't people rise up and fight against that? You know? But I guess people are happy.
- [36:57]
A
Yeah. You know, it's.
- [36:58]
B
It never. It never. I mean, luckily, it was never an option for me. You know, I think I was never a functioning human being. Like. Like. Like no one was ever going to hire me to manage something for them, so that that meant I was never Going to get sucked into the security, you know, of a job. It meant I was always going to be like, pushed out to the fringes, you know. And so, you know, I had to figure out my way in the fringes.
- [37:26]
A
There's no alternate universe where, you know, Carl Newman was a great, I don't know, computer engineer or something.
- [37:34]
B
You know, it could have been like, if my dad had been a computer engineer and he taught me computer engineering and I got out of high school and he said, come work at my company and I'll give you 80,000 a year. I might have gone, yes, that sounds awesome. I mean, I don't know. Or an accountant or whatever.
- [37:52]
A
Sure.
- [37:52]
B
You know, I think I might have loved the security. I mean, moving into, like when you start creating your own job, like being a musician or having a podcast, you're kind of moving out, you know, you're kind of stepping off the cliff and you're like, I hope there's a net there exactly like you. You don't know. You don't know what's going to happen.
- [38:15]
A
You're up on the high wire, no question. I just saw an article in the, you know, the Financial Times the other day about how like more, at least in America, more people are being pushed into this, like, freelance, you know, work both at the top and bottom ends of the income spectrum where like, you know, many people are doing like doordash or Uber or whatever. But at the same time, even like, you know, highly educated, you know, people are being pushed into whatever, like consulting or, you know, kind of their own little enterprises like this. It's like, it seems like people are just going to have to figure out how to make it work one way or another. Because, you know, that net that exists for some people certainly in the kind of professional sphere, seems to be shrinking and disappearing, you know, at a rapidly increasing rate, which frankly is maybe a little bit what this record is about.
- [39:06]
B
Yeah. I mean, although that's, that's, that's, that's a world I don't, I don't understand. But maybe I should, maybe I should do some research into it about, about the, the life and psychology of just being like a, I don't know, a salary man.
- [39:20]
A
A nine to fiver. Yeah.
- [39:21]
B
Because I look, but also, I don't want to, I don't want to put that down. Like, I, I don't want to put people down. I mean, I think I, I admire so many people who have these nine to five jobs that I could not do.
- [39:34]
A
Sure.
- [39:35]
B
You know, like, like I go To Target. It's like, I couldn't manage this Target. I couldn't be an assistant manager at this Target, you know?
- [39:44]
A
Like, I feel like it would be a mess.
- [39:46]
B
I feel. I feel like I have a. I feel like I always have this respect for. Or also just the respect of, like, people shouldn't have to go work at, you know, 40 hours a week at doing something they hate. But y', all, you have to respect the people that do that to support their families. You know, the people that go, like, well, I hate this, but I remember my dad saying that to me years ago. He was always trying to get me to get a job. I mean, this was before I was making any money at music. And he was always suggesting all these ridiculous jobs to me, like, why don't you be an auctioneer?
- [40:25]
A
Is there a lot of money in auctioning?
- [40:27]
B
I don't know. Maybe there is. But, you know, and I said to him, you know, it's like, I. But I don't want to do that. And he said to me, well, you think I've wanted to do every job I've done in my life? And that really hit home with me, that, oh, he's just. He's just work. He's just working a job to support his family.
- [40:46]
A
Sure.
- [40:47]
B
And that always. That always. That always stuck with me just like, you know, even though. Even though I was not that I did not turn into that guy, you know, I was. I was not that person. I supported my family in this really weird way.
- [41:02]
A
Right.
- [41:03]
B
Which. Which. Which involved a lot of luck.
- [41:06]
A
Yeah. We all should. You know, everyone at the end of the day has to do what they have to do to get by. And, you know, just. We all should be so lucky as to manage to do that by doing something that we, you know, really enjoy.
- [41:19]
B
Why am I taking so long buying flowers when I could not do it? Say that I did? Cause I wish you could see me I'm killing it with all I'm learning about baby's breath and asteroid I'm not the person you'd remember yes and no. But I wish you could see me I'm killing it
- [41:51]
A
Shifting gears a little bit. I want to, you know, but I guess kind of along these same lines, just thinking bigger pictures societally, you're. You're. You don't need to dox yourself on that note. But you're coming to us, speaking to me from Canada?
- [42:04]
B
No, no, I'm in Woodstock, New York.
- [42:06]
A
Oh, you're in Woodstock. Oh, I didn't realize that. Oh, because the record Was cut up in Woodstock. Sure.
- [42:10]
B
I've been here for 17 years.
- [42:14]
A
Wow. How did I not realize that? Maybe I'm thinking, that's good.
- [42:18]
B
That's good. I'm being protected.
- [42:20]
A
You're off the grid, man.
- [42:21]
B
I'm well protected.
- [42:22]
A
Yeah. I talked to Dan last year when the Destroyer record came out, and he's obviously there up in bc, so maybe that's what I was thinking of. But I guess this maybe makes this question all the more interesting. The New Pornographers, Certainly when you first kind of hit the scene and started picking up some momentum, much was made of the fact that it is a Canadian. Canadian. I think the term Canadian supergroup was thrown around quite often. How do you conceive of yourself and the band as a uniquely Canadian institution? Do you conceive of yourself and the band as Canadian?
- [43:05]
B
No, not really. I mean, I can't think there might be something more Vancouver about us than Canadian.
- [43:15]
A
Canadian in general.
- [43:16]
B
Like, there. There was all the other Canadian. All the other Canadian bands of the 2000s. Most of them were like 2,000 miles away. You know, they were all. They were all in Toronto and Montreal. We were in the same country, but so far away.
- [43:35]
A
Sure.
- [43:36]
B
Like, that's. That's. It's like the distance between the UK and Russia, you know, so maybe further. But, I mean, I. I felt a little kinship, you know, and I did feel some national pride and I felt some civic pride about being the band from Canada, the band from Vancouver that did good. But, you know, is there anything about, like, our music that I think is Canadian? I mean, not really. You know, like, it's. I. I don't know. It's like, is there something like. Is there something about REM in the B52s that is very Georgia, right? I don't know. You know, it could just be these two amazing bands just showed up in the same place, right?
- [44:29]
A
Yeah, at roughly the same time, definitely. And I think that the fact that. I mean, around. Generally around the same time as you guys, you know, hitting. Obviously you had what, like, there was Arcade Fire, there was Broken Social Scene, there was Wolf Parade, I think came a little way. Little ways after.
- [44:47]
B
Yeah, I mean, we were.
- [44:49]
A
It was easy to lump everyone into a scene, I guess, is what I would say, without that scene actually really existing. Or at least it maybe seems that way, you know, from a distance.
- [44:59]
B
When we. I remember when we first. Our first tour we did, which was February 2001, I remember somebody saying to me, oh, there's some. Canada's kind of hot right now. For like indie rock. And the two, the two artists they mentioned were us and Peaches.
- [45:16]
A
Peaches.
- [45:17]
B
And so in 2001, like, I realized, like, we weren't the best and we weren't the most popular, but we were kind of the first, like. We were kind of the first band of like the 2000s Canadian indie rock wave.
- [45:32]
A
Right.
- [45:32]
B
And. And I remember Kevin from Broken Social Scenes telling me years later when they were. When they were trying to get the. The government recording grant for you forgot it. For you forgot it. And people. He wrote, he said, he wrote in their application, we're the East Coast Pornographers. We're the East Coast Pornographers. Like that. That was what he wrote in the selling point to try and get money. And so. So I mean, I mean, I think there was a little, you know, I think there might have been a little bit of like, like, like back and forth. I mean, what do you call that? A little. I mean a kind of a mutual admiration.
- [46:09]
A
Sure.
- [46:10]
B
You know, like, I respect you, you respect me, we're a happy family. I remember once the Pornographers ran into Broken Social Scene on the streets of Manhattan briefly. And it was funny. It felt like the sharks meet the Sharks meeting the jet.
- [46:30]
A
Yeah, there's gonna be a rumble.
- [46:31]
B
Yeah. I think it might even made that joke. Like when we ran into each other, I think we were doing press and they were doing an in store at other music. And it was like, hey, you guys, you know, we're all from Canada. Can you believe it? Yep.
- [46:44]
A
That's funny. That's very funny. To think of you guys and Peaches being lumped into like in some ways, I can't think of more dissimilar art. I guess besides the fact that you come from Canada.
- [46:56]
B
That's what seemed to be funny. I think the only thing that linked us together is that we were making some noise in the world of indie rock, but we were not even remotely similar as bands.
- [47:09]
A
Yeah. Well, I guess I've just been thinking along these lines. Cause been thinking about other Canadian artists. Legacy Canadian, I guess you guys are legacy Canadian artists at this point. But Leonard Cohen, for instance, Joni Mitchell, the band. And the way that like, you know, even Neil to an extent, although he's as much an American artist to many people that he's Canadian.
- [47:33]
B
No, he's Canadian.
- [47:34]
A
Well, if you ask the Canadians, he's Canadian. Many Americans, I'm sure, would want to claim him as well.
- [47:42]
B
Well, they can't. They don't get them.
- [47:46]
A
That's fair.
- [47:47]
B
Louisiana doesn't get to claim everybody just because they moved there.
- [47:50]
A
Just because they moved there.
- [47:51]
B
Yeah, they had to move there. Where else were they gonna go?
- [47:54]
A
Yeah, that's fair. We've got plenty here down here in California, so you can have Neil. Anyway. I don't know. I've been thinking more along those lines recently because they are. Artists like, that are so important to me and so significant, I think, in the history of rock music. To even call it rock music is sort of reductive in some ways when you're trying to lump Neil and Joni and Leonard Cohen all into the same category.
- [48:26]
B
Although pretty genre wise, pretty close.
- [48:30]
A
Yeah, certainly. And certainly at certain points in their lives. But just like, you know, as songwriters, for instance, you know, like, the type of song that a Leonard Cohen writes versus the type of song that, like, a Neil Young writes could not be more dissimilar in some ways.
- [48:45]
B
I mean, I think about that sometimes how, like, a lot of people don't know about Canadian writers, but really, if you. If. If an American had to pit their top three writers against Joni Mitchell, Leonard Cohen and Neil Young, I'm not sure they would win that fight.
- [49:04]
A
I'm not sure either, to be honest, because.
- [49:06]
B
Because who is there? You know, I feel like, would it be Stevie Wonder and Bob Dylan and Brian Wilson or. I, like. I don't know.
- [49:14]
A
Yeah, I mean, that's. That's a pretty tough trio as well. I'd throw, you know, Lou Reed in there perhaps, as well. But, you know, I guess all of this is to say Canada, really, I feel like maybe, you know, punches above its weight when you look at the history of musicians and rock musicians in particular, that come from the great nation. Where I'm going with this is I don't necessarily, as an American, at least associate like, Leonard Cohen with, like, Montreal specifically, even though Montrealers, I'm sure, you know, absolutely do and would claim him as one of their patron saints in the same way that I associate, like. Yeah, like Lou Reed, for instance, with, like, New York City, you know.
- [49:55]
B
You should watch. Have you ever seen that documentary, ladies and gentlemen, Leonard Cohen?
- [50:00]
A
Yes.
- [50:00]
B
I mean, if you watch that, I'd say he couldn't be more Montreal. Yeah.
- [50:07]
A
That was a CBC documentary, I think, right?
- [50:09]
B
Yeah. He hadn't even. He hadn't even started writing songs.
- [50:11]
A
He hadn't put the record out. Yeah, that's when he was just doing the poet thing, basically.
- [50:15]
B
Yeah. Yeah. I think it was like a couple of years before his first record. Yeah, yeah. It's. I mean, lent, I gotta say. Leonard. If there was anybody who was, if there any songwriter was the biggest influence on this new record, I'd say it was Leonard Cohen.
- [50:30]
A
Interesting.
- [50:31]
B
Like, I'd say Leonard Cohen at his best, in my opinion, is the best songwriter.
- [50:39]
A
You're not going to get much disagreement from me here. What, what are, what are some of your Leonard faves?
- [50:44]
B
I mean, I just love like, like his. Something like the Sisters of Mercy is such a, like, he has, he has an amazing sense of, like, telling stories, but that are, that are very effective, but also kind of like surreal and evocative, but, you know, you can follow them. Sure. Or, like, I mean, it's the most overplayed song in history, but, I mean, hallelujah.
- [51:08]
A
Of course.
- [51:11]
B
One of the, one of the greatest, you know, opening lines of all time. And, and, and I love that kind of, you know, there's the, the subtle sense of humor in his songs. I love, like, you know, like, the line. But you don't, but you don't really care for music, do you?
- [51:29]
A
Right.
- [51:30]
B
It's such a, it's such a beautif to just come up right off the top to write this beautiful song. I heard there was a secret chord and it pleased the Lord. And it's like, but you don't like music, do you? It's like, it's such a, it's such a declaration of intent that no matter how many bad versions I hear, I will always go, oh, what a, what a beautiful song. And, or Suzanne, Sure. And when I was like, about 22, I remember listening. I was going through a breakup and I listened to hey, that's no way to say goodbye.
- [52:00]
A
Oh, man.
- [52:01]
B
And it basically just healed me. Like, I've, I, I, I've never experienced anything like that where, like this, I, that's, I. Leonard Cohen just came through the years to say, hey, this, this isn't, this isn't so bad. We've all been there, you know. Hey, what? Wasn't it, Wasn't it cool that it even happened at all? And he was like, yeah, you're right, Leonard. You're right. And so I love that and the fact that he was a poet, you know, which I think, I think it shows. I think Dylan, when he, when he started doing, like, Blood on the Tracks, I think that, you know, that's when he started. I think that's when Dylan became arguably influenced by Leonard Cohen.
- [52:47]
A
I see that. Yeah, there's definitely more of a, you know, storytelling aspect and world building and, you know, characters that you get on a Blood on the Tracks. That isn't there so much, certainly on. On a Highway 61 revisited or.
- [53:01]
B
Yeah, like. Like all he mentions the jugglers and the clowns, but you don't find anything about them. Right.
- [53:06]
A
It's just exactly. Just images. Just words.
- [53:09]
B
Yeah. You know, there's just, like, images by the roadside as you're just, like, driving by.
- [53:12]
A
Right.
- [53:13]
B
So, yeah, I think. I think I was. I was thinking about a lot of that stuff when I was writing this record. Just like. Like thinking, like, going through every line and going, is it necessary? Like, does this. Does this. Does this give you any information that you didn't already have? You know, like, you know, does it sound cool? You know? You know, like, just, you know, I thought I felt like in my brain, I think I was trying to approach writing lyrics in a way that was closer to Leonard Cohen and to me. It was something I felt like I was doing for the first time. And that made it fun. That made it feel kind of new to me.
- [53:56]
A
Sure.
- [53:56]
B
Even I wasn't inventing a new style of songwriting. I think I was just kind of investigating a style that I'd never really
- [54:04]
A
done before that makes sense and did that. I can't help but notice the record is. There's a couple super catchy songs on it. There's always super catchy songs on a new porno's record, but it's maybe not quite as super catchy as some, you know, of the other albums.
- [54:22]
B
Did that.
- [54:23]
A
Did that songwriting style reflect in the way you wanted to realize some of these songs? Did that just kind of come naturally?
- [54:28]
B
Yeah, Like, I think. I think I was just trying to move away, like, the song, the former site of. You know, I think it was like I was. I was trying to just say something that was more of a. More of a story, you know? Sure. So. So it was like, okay, this song has to just kind of groove. It just has. It has to groove along without a drumbeat. You know, it has to be like me singing with a synth for about three minutes, you know, because I. Because I have to. I have to, like, just tell. Tell this story. And also, I've. I've been less precious about melody these days. Like. Like, I used to, like, write melodies and go, okay, that's the melody. And like. And now I'm like, if the melody. If it's hard to sing, I just change the melody, you know? Like, if. If I'm. If I'm singing the lyrics and I feel like that. That melody and those lyrics don't match sometimes, you know, I. I Just won't be. I'm not precious about it. Sometimes I'll change the lyrics, sometimes I'll change the melody. But you're just. You're just trying to find that. Just. Just trying to find that balance. Like, I remember the song Bonus Mai Tais, it had a. It had a chorus that was arguably more catchy at some point, but I remember thinking, it doesn't match
- [55:52]
A
that song in particular. Maybe doesn't need to be like the catchiest one on the record, given the subject matter.
- [55:57]
B
And I thought, like, it had a melody and I thought it sounds too jaunty, like. Like when I'm singing, I'll have one more bonus Mai Tai. It shouldn't be like a drinking song.
- [56:07]
A
Right?
- [56:08]
B
Like, it's a very. It's a very sad moment. So I thought, like, okay. And I remember John saying, like, what happened to that melody? And I was like, it's too. It's too happy, you know, and that. And that was a new thing for me. Like, okay, that. That melody might be catchier, but to me doesn't fit. So. And. And there are million. There are infinite amounts of melodies, so who cares? I'm gonna sing something different. I think it's going to be cool. I think it's going to work. It's going to flow. What I want to hear, I think, is not necessarily what other people want to hear, if that. If that makes any sense.
- [56:46]
A
Yeah.
- [56:47]
B
Like, I listen to a lot of music that people love it and it's. It's the most critically acclaimed music. And I just think it's super mediocre. And. And I think, well, you know, like. Like there's. I feel like there's no agreement, you know, I do. Although I do love Geese.
- [57:07]
A
I saw. I was going to ask you about that maybe to close things out. You had a great write up about Geese and you even did, I think, what you covered. Cobra. I want to say you posted this on Substack a few months ago.
- [57:16]
B
And what blows me and what makes me so excited about Geese is because I'm. Is that I'm never on the same page. I'm never on the same page as everybody. So it's exciting when. When the band. When the world jumps on the band and says they rule, and I go, you're right, they do rule. It's. It's a very. It's a very exciting thing. So. Because it's. It's rarely the case. So I. I even had to bring that up. Like, when I say that I think most critically acclaimed music is super bland. I have to go. But not geese.
- [57:52]
A
Not geese, absolutely. No.
- [57:54]
B
I don't know. I think. I don't know. I think the world. I think the world is. I think politics is kind of infected the world of music some. I can't. I can't figure it out, you know, Like, I feel like. Doesn't it seem like, like think of music in the. In the late 2000s, like it. Doesn't it feel like music was trying to be a little more exciting? Like you had Animal Collective and you had Dirty Projectors and you had Vampire Weekend. You had like Bon Iver, right? You had these like different bands that were like, very unique, you know, that, that had this thing and people were super into it. Like, like exciting new bands with unique sounds were showing up and it's like. And people were super into it and they were super popular. And I feel like you don't see that anymore, you know? Like, I feel like. I feel like now it's like the coolest thing in the world is just like middle of the road music, right? You know, it's like if, like the new. If a new band shows up and sounds like Animal Collective, well, they're going to be on maybe Drag City and they're going to sell 500 copies if they're lucky. But now I. Now I sound like weird old guy.
- [59:13]
A
No, I think that, that, that, that makes perfect sen. I mean, reflects a lot of my experience here. You know, that's a conversation we have a lot of the time in many different contexts on, you know, the program in general. You know, there's any number of reasons I think that you could chalk that up to. I do think like the, like the lack of maybe gatekeepers, you know, all those bands you mentioned, for instance, it's notable that like Pitchfork went a long way towards like boosting all of them. And I think the reception that came along with a real big write up from Pitchfork back in the day that was sort of agreed upon no matter what your particular sect of the indie rock world was. Everyone could kind of agree if this got a best new music or whatever, that was something worth paying attention to one way or another. And now that certainly is not the case with modern Pitchfork. And there isn't really a replacement for that either. Things have been sort of atomized and decentralized. And so much of the stuff that you get out there is like this, frankly, like the podcast like this, where it's just a totally independent operation and, you know, everyone's sort of, I don't know, there Isn't that. There isn't that sun at the center of the universe? I think, in a way.
- [60:26]
B
Yeah. And it makes sense if there is no gatekeeper like that or then everything. Gatekeeper. Not the most. Not the best word, maybe, but yes, it's the most appropriate one I can think of, I think. Yeah, it makes sense that things would just move towards the middle of the road.
- [60:47]
A
Yeah, sort of. Yeah.
- [60:48]
B
Because that's just. That's just generic.
- [60:50]
A
That's reduced towards the average. Exactly.
- [60:52]
B
Yes, exactly. And so if you. If you realize, like, it goes back to my theory, which I came up with last year, which is like, to do well in music, you have to be the best at being average. And I stand by it. If you. If you. If you look at, you know, if. If you look at a lot of the great artists, they are like just the best at being average. Like, I think that's the beauty of Springsteen, you know.
- [61:23]
A
Sure.
- [61:23]
B
Because he may. He write. He writes average music about average people for average people, you know, I think.
- [61:34]
A
Yeah, I get what you're saying. I think the strongest example of this might be someone that we spent a little bit of time talking about a few months ago. Billy Joel, I think, is maybe the definition of the everyman, the average musician. Someone who's great at doing that. But like, that is.
- [61:50]
B
But his songs are so good, though.
- [61:52]
A
Well, they are, but it is, man, that is average. That is an average man making average music.
- [61:57]
B
And that's me. I'm the average guy.
- [62:00]
A
That's right. There we go. On that heartening note, I've already eaten up plenty of your time, so thank you so much for Wrath with me. Carl. This is a fantastic conversation, fantastic record, congratulations on it. And honestly, just really an honor to get to talk to you. Particularly considering the hallowed place the New Pornographers have in the. My family tree.
- [62:24]
B
Oh, awesome. Well, I'm glad. I'm glad we inhabit that spot. You inhabit. You inhabit the spot that geese will probably inhabit in my family.
- [62:35]
A
There you go. Exactly. Honestly. Yes, that's exactly it. Some. Some father son bonding music. Thanks again to Carl. The band, of course, is the New Pornographers. The record is the first former site of Put Them Together, the former site of the Newport Operas. See, see, See what he's getting at there? Another excellent record in a quarter century. Long career full of them. Catch him on the road over the next couple months. Until next time, Joker.