In Conversation: CATE LE BON

Summary

Jokermen Podcast – In Conversation: CATE LE BON

Date: September 22, 2025
Host: Ian (Jokermen)
Guest: Cate Le Bon

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Jokermen’s Ian sits down with acclaimed Welsh musician Cate Le Bon to discuss her forthcoming album Michelangelo Dying, her enduring relationship with her artistic heroes (most notably John Cale), and the evolution of her songwriting, production style, and performance practices. The conversation offers an intimate look at Cate’s artistic process, her influences, the importance of collaboration, and her thoughts on creativity, touring, and the role of mystery in music.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Cate Le Bon’s Connection to John Cale and Welsh Artistic Heritage

• John Cale as Influence and Collaborator

  • Cate recalls her early exposure to The Velvet Underground and, later, to Cale’s solo work, describing a near “religious” devotion to his artistry.

    "He's a wonder, you know... completely, you know. Yes, he is Welsh, but that never made him more knowable. It was still this kind of fantastical element to him."
    — Cate Le Bon, [03:50]

  • Cate shares the emotional story of being contacted by Cale, which prompted an immediate, tearful reaction out of disbelief and excitement:

    "I just remember crying in the workshop... this mythical idol... was looking for me."
    — Cate Le Bon, [07:01]

  • The collaboration began with Cate performing at the Barbican with Cale, later touring with him and being tasked with singing “Sunday Morning.” The relationship culminates in Cale contributing vocals to her new album.

    "Only John Cale can make me cry."
    — Cate Le Bon, [11:14]

• Artistic Inspiration from Cale’s Approach

  • Cate admires Cale’s artistic evolution, constant reinvention, and refusal to dwell in nostalgia.

    "He's constantly exploring, isn't he?... You don't get much retrospectiveness from John... he wants to play new stuff."
    — Cate Le Bon, [12:24]

• Favorite John Cale Albums

  • Cate lists Fear, Paris 1919, Artificial Intelligence, and especially "Dying on the Vine" as personal favorites.

    "It's a masterpiece. It might be one of mine."
    — Cate Le Bon, [13:54]

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2. Cate Le Bon as Producer & Collaborator

• Emergence as a Producer

  • Production began with helping friends (notably H. Hawkline/Huw Evans), eventually leading to working with Bradford Cox (Deerhunter), Tim Presley, Devendra Banhart, John Grant, and Wilco.

    "I don't really want to be a producer, but I really enjoy it."
    — Cate Le Bon, [19:54]

  • She emphasizes learning from deeply engaged collaborations, noting Bradford Cox and Jeff Tweedy (“the real deal”) as especially impactful.

    "Spending time with someone like Jeff... you learn a lot about life."
    — Cate Le Bon, [19:24]

  • Recent production work includes the new Dry Cleaning album and playing with Andrew Savage.

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3. Signature Sound: Collaborators and Instrumentation

• Evolving Band Dynamics

  • Saxophonist Euan (Ewan) Hinchliffe, long-time collaborator, is described as offering a “second voice” on her records:

    "Especially with this last record... it's those parts that I don’t have maybe the... words to express something. I feel like the saxophone takes over and does that for me."
    — Cate Le Bon, [24:11]

  • The cross-pollination of musicians between her projects and peers is a recurring motif, creating a sense of an artistic “network”:

    “It's like everyone's working together towards this end... sometimes that music pops up on one person's record and sometimes it pops up on someone else's record.”
    — Ian, [25:03]

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4. Making ‘Michelangelo Dying’: Creative Process & Emotional Themes

• Birth of the Album

  • The record took longer than anticipated—Cate describes it as a “hard plane to land,” shaped by personal heartache and emotional catharsis.

    “It wasn't the record that I thought I was going to write... it became a vessel to kind of experience and heal from heartache.”
    — Cate Le Bon, [26:59]

  • The process included multiple mixing sessions (including in Joshua Tree), and Cate notes the music and the desert landscape are, for her, intertwined.

    “Every day you wake up there, it feels like you're struck with this kind of like, ‘oh, my god, I am so small and insignificant in a really reassuring way.’”
    — Cate Le Bon, [34:01]

• Approach to Albums Since Reward (Trilogy Feel)

  • Cate acknowledges a trilogy-like continuity between Reward, Pompeii, and Michelangelo Dying, marked by meticulous, solitary songcraft, and a new focus on sonic detail:

    “To me, Reward feels like my first record in many ways, you know, as a solo artist.”
    — Cate Le Bon, [41:52]

• Songwriting & Title Selection

  • Her album titles (e.g., Crab Day, Mug Museum, Michelangelo Dying) are chosen for their evocative and open-ended quality:

    “It's nice when people can kind of figure out their own meaning... it's such a ridiculous title... and I guess that lends itself to how ridiculous and over the top heartache can feel.”
    — Cate Le Bon, [36:02]

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5. The Live Experience & Touring Philosophy

• Cate prioritizes reproducing the sonic world of her records in live performance, assembling an outstanding, emotionally resonant band.

  “I want it to sound like the record. I want it to feel like, you know, that world that I built...”
  — Cate Le Bon, [44:11]

• She cherishes touring with friends and views it as an adult “holiday”:

  “To me, it’s like an amazing holiday adults don’t usually get... you get to play music.”
  — Cate Le Bon, [47:43]

• Notable contrast in US versus UK/European touring:

  “There just seems to be a younger, more diverse... more excitable, excited crowd in America.”
  — Cate Le Bon, [48:40]

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6. Audience, Social Media, and the Value of Mystery

• Cate expresses ambivalence toward social media as an artist-audience bridge and emphasizes appreciating mystery:

  “That kind of transference of energy between an audience and a band is like magic... the social media kind of world, it dilutes that.”
  — Cate Le Bon, [52:14]

• On artistic progression and audience relationships:

  “It's like shedding a skin when you make something, and then you do it and then you move on... I like forward motion. I like looking forward to the next thing.”
  — Cate Le Bon, [51:12]

• She avoids explaining her songs’ meanings, preferring listeners create their own interpretations:

  “You make something, you let it go. It doesn't belong to you anymore.”
  — Cate Le Bon, [54:34]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• On John Cale’s Artsitic Evolution:

  “It's like he... shedding his skin and he moves on. You know, it's this constant kind of movement and fluidity and curiosity...”
  — Cate Le Bon, [03:50]

• On the Significance of Sonic Relationships:

  “The saxophone being maybe the, you know, the second voice on the record... those parts that I don’t have maybe the. The voice or the words to kind of express... the saxophone takes over and does that, you know, for me.”
  — Cate Le Bon, [24:11]

• On Album Titles and Ambiguity:

  “It's like a full on opera when you’re in the midst of [heartache]... there are reasons for it [the title] that I probably would never share with anyone.”
  — Cate Le Bon, [36:02]

• On the Live Experience vs. Social Media:

  “…To me, the social media kind of world, it kind of dilutes [the magic]... the wonder of that I think is kind of lost because... everyone is pulling the curtain back and is available all the time...”
  — Cate Le Bon, [52:14]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [00:00–02:31] — Introduction by Ian & discussion of the new album
• [03:50–14:02] — Cate reflects on John Cale, their relationship, and Welsh music
• [16:00–21:27] — Cate’s evolution as a producer/collaborator and friendships with other artists
• [21:27–26:15] — The role of saxophonist Ewan Hinchliffe & collaborative networks
• [26:59–32:19] — Making of Michelangelo Dying: artistic process, emotional context, recording/mixing locations
• [35:17–39:07] — Album titling, relation to previous work, “trilogy” concept
• [44:11–46:47] — Assembling the live band, recreating studio sound on tour
• [47:43–50:13] — Touring experience in the US vs. Europe
• [51:12–54:34] — Thoughts on social media, artistic mystery, and audience connection
• [54:34–56:00] — Letting go of work, ceding meaning to audience

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Conclusion

This episode serves as a deep dive into Cate Le Bon's creative universe, exploring the tension between transparency and mystery, the emotional forces driving her writing and producing, and the significance of community in her art. Listeners come away with a sense of her meticulous approach, reverence for collaboration (especially with Welsh icon John Cale), and a rare commitment to preserving magic and wonder both in the music itself and in her connection with her audience.

For more: Cate Le Bon’s new record Michelangelo Dying is out Friday, September 26th, 2025 on Mexican Summer.

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End of Summary

Transcript

[Ian]

Welcome back to Jokerman in Conversation, I'm Ian. Today my guest Kate Le Bon who is back this week with her first new record in I think three years since Pompeii. Great record from 2022, Michelangelo dying, the new one out this Friday on Mexican Summer. I'm sure you know, for most people listening, Kate needs no and introduction but to give, to give her one anyways. You know, one of the most interesting, creative, forward looking, I think artists of the last 10, 15 years at this point. I mentioned to her, I think in our conversation, but you know, I got into her, I guess 2012 at this point, something like that when Mug Museum came out. Great record and every, every album she's put out since then, Crab Day, Reward, Pompeii and certainly this new one, Michelangelo Dying has just been a continuation of furtherance of her sound which is one of the. I don't know how to describe it exactly. I mean, you know, all the standard indie rock terminology I'm sure applies angular, smooth, sensuous. But you know, you listen to a Kate Le Bon song and it just, you know, it's a Kate Laban song, you know, when you hear it, that's the best way to describe it. And that is as true as ever on this new record which features should be noted certain Welshmen that we're fond of talking about here on Jokerman podcast. John Cale appears on the ninth track Ride. Great song. And Kate was kind enough to tell me a little bit about her history working with John, which goes quite deep at this point actually. It's fascinating. Two Welsh icons, very thoughtful speaker about her own music and the work of others, still leaving plenty of mystery to the music. At the same time, here's Kate.

[Kate Le Bon (singing parts)]

I'm not a gracious daughter I'm not religious on the water it's about time it's about time I want to sit to regret.

[Ian]

Most of it recording there. Cool. And I'll tape a little intro separate so we can just kind of roll right into things. Don't need to stumble through any awkward stuff. Kate, thanks so much for joining here. Gotta start. I mean there's nowhere else to start for me at least I don't know, you know how. Presumably not terribly familiar with what we've done on our podcast, but we spent like two, like two years basically listening to and talking about every single John Cale record ever. From all the Velvet stuff and vintage violence up to Mercy and Poptical Illusion now and he's here on the new record. I got a couple questions just about him in general. But I wonder if you could start, I mean, maybe just by talking a little bit about his status as a Welsh musician yourself, as maybe the inheritor of a certain type of Welsh artistry.

[Kate Le Bon (speaking parts)]

Yeah, I mean, I don't know where to begin, really. You know, I kind of have always. You know, you're exposed to the Velvet Underground at an age where you don't really remember. It just becomes part of the fabric of music, I suppose. Or at least, you know, for me. And then. But then coming across, you know, and really. And realizing that John Cale was a solo artist in his own right and. And just falling in, really falling in love with his music in a way that is. I don't know what the word is. You know, it's kind of almost religious. He's a wonder, you know, and. And completely, you know. Yes, he is Welsh, but that never made him more knowable. It was still this kind of fantastical element to him, you know, because I suppose he. He was part of, you know, that kind of scene that seems so, you know, iconic and untouchable. So I. Yeah, I've been. I've been a massive fan of his for. For a long time and just seeing how, you know, he makes something incredible and then he. It's like he. It's shedding his skin and he moves on. You know, it's this constant kind of movement and fluidity and curiosity and still, you know, the. The last record is just. Yeah. Yeah, I, you know, can't stop listening to it.

[Ian]

As good. As good as any, you know, any other John Cale record.

[Kate Le Bon (speaking parts)]

God, yeah. Just half century. Absolutely. You just, you know, you just feel the. I don't know. There's something so unique to him where he can make this. The. Something sound so easy, but when you actually try and break it down, it's complicated in a way that is almost like a different musical language that he is only, you know, he can only speak. It's sad to kind of describe, you know, that kind of. Yeah. A song. A song that seems so simple when you. When you try and learn it or something. There's like a. There'll be a strange turnaround or a. Or a, you know, a timing that is just like, what the hell? And. But. But, yeah, I guess it was maybe, you know, it's one of those moments that is like, whoa, like, movie moment, you know, in your life. When I was. I'd taken a year off to music to go and study furniture, and I was kind of cleaning my work bench for the day, and I got this email through that Said john Cale is looking for you. And wow.

[Ian]

So he came. That was because that was the question I had, is you don't just have, like, how did this happen? So John. John came to you?

[Kate Le Bon (speaking parts)]

Well, this was eight years ago. So, you know, you get this email saying, John Cale is looking for you. And I remember, like, it was part excitement, part fear, because I just kept thinking, what have I done? Why is he looking for me? I haven't done anything. So I started. I just remember crying in the workshop. And it's not like me to, you know, to kind of. I was. You know, it was just all these emotions and this kind of disbelief that, you know, this. This mythical idol, you know, was his. Yeah. Was looking for me. So I kind of. He was. He was doing a show at the Barbican and he wanted me to go and sing some songs with him. And I just couldn't, like, I actually couldn't believe it. I thought someone was, you know, having me on, and I thought there was going to be this big joke reveal of like, ah, got you.

[Ian]

You know, you got punked.

[Kate Le Bon (speaking parts)]

Yeah, totally. And. But no, I kind of went down to London and did some rehearsal with him and, you know, immediately, just when he started singing, it was. And still, you know, I saw him perform somewhat recently. All the corners of his voice are all there, you know, and it feels just like this. I don't know, like time. A voice that has just been, you know, I don't know, since the beginning of time or something. That's just. It's. It's unbelievable. But it. How it makes me feel is just like, I don't know, like centuries, you know, of. Yeah, but so I did that and then. And that was obviously, you know, incredible. And then he asked me to play three shows with him in Paris, which was kind of joining the band. And I don't think I must have learned about 40 songs for that one, which was 40. Something like that. He just kept adding songs to the list of songs that I was.

[Ian]

When you got that many songs.

[Kate Le Bon (speaking parts)]

Yeah, it was. I swear it was something like that that I learned. And. And then one day he came into the kitchen, he was like, management's are telling us that we've got to do Sunday morning. But I'm not singing it. You are. And I was like, oh, God, okay. And then I said, should I print you off some lyrics? And I was like, you know, I think I'll be okay.

[Ian]

I got that one.

[Kate Le Bon (speaking parts)]

Yeah, I think I'll be all right. And he could. He didn't want to play it, you know, so he was kind of, we were kind of jamming it in rehearsal and every time I sang he started to take the piss out of my accent, which I was quite, you know, I was like, john, we've kind of got a similar, you know, similar. Well, yeah, like, but we, we didn't end up doing it live, but. So, yeah, and then, you know, I think he played a show in Wales and myself and Griff Rees and Jameson Bradfield did some songs with him and, and, you know, so there was that kind of knowability in that sense where we work together. But when it came to, you know, I had this song I really wanted him to sing on and I was so scared to ask him. So I kept putting it off and putting it off. And then I went to mix my record and I felt like, so sad and like angry with myself that I hadn't just asked. But then the mixing session kind of didn't really go as planned. So I went back to LA to mix the record with my co producer and, and thought, right, well, this is, you know, this is an opportunity now to kind of correct those. That feeling of being so angry that you didn't do this in time. So I, I sent him an email and within days he kind of sent. Sent the vocals for Bride. And I think probably this. Yeah, I cried again. Only John Cale can make me cry.

[Ian]

Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, it's a fantastic moment on the record. It's just so cool to hear, I mean, the two of you on a. On a trek together. What I mean, one thing I always have admired about John and certainly have come to admire even more about John, having listened to literally every, you know, record he's ever met, is kind of the ability for him to constantly, I don't know, move forward or evolve. And I don't mean move forward like, you know, he's advancing, you know, getting better as an artist from one record to another. Although that frequently happens. But, you know, even if it ends up being sort of a creative dead end at a certain point like it, there's always some sort of sense of rebirth and kind of unexpected directions. I wonder, have you taken any sense of inspiration from not necessarily the music that he's like, literally the Sonics, although maybe that as well, but just kind of the way he's conducted himself, comported himself as an artist?

[Kate Le Bon (speaking parts)]

Yeah, I mean, I guess so. You know, he's, it's the, you know, he's constantly exploring, isn't he? And there's you know, there isn't that kind of. You don't get much retrospective. Retrospectiveness, if that's even a word.

[Ian]

Sure.

[Kate Le Bon (speaking parts)]

From John. You know, it is more. It kind of like, you know, that moment where he's told that he has to play, you know, Sunday morning and he doesn't want to do it. He wants to play new stuff. He wants to, you know, explore new territory. And. Yeah, I mean, I. I feel similarly, you know, so it's nice to. To kind of. Yeah. Have. Have someone like him to. To look to and. Yeah, sure.

[Ian]

Get any. I gotta ask. Just favorite records? Favorite songs.

[Kate Le Bon (speaking parts)]

I mean, Fear is, you know, always gets me. Classic Paris, 1919, you know, absolute classic. But they, you know, they floor me. I love the last record. I love. Oh, God, what's it called? The one you did in the 80s with dying on the vine on it.

[Ian]

Oh, yeah. Artificial Intelligence.

[Kate Le Bon (speaking parts)]

Yes. Artificial Intelligence, yes. Love that record.

[Ian]

Dying on the vine is like, maybe my favorite John Cale song.

[Kate Le Bon (speaking parts)]

It's a masterpiece. It might be one of Min. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

[Ian]

He's the man.

[Kate Le Bon (speaking parts)]

He sure is. I've been chilling Chasing Ghosts and I don't like it. I wish someone would show me where to draw the line I'd lay down my sword if you would take it and tell everyone back home I'm doing fine.

[Ian]

Well, you know, a little more attention or, you know, questioning along these lines, you know, focused on your own music, which we're here to talk about, ostensibly.

[Kate Le Bon (speaking parts)]

I can talk about John Cale all day if you want.

[Ian]

I mean, so can I. I wanted to start, actually, before we, you know, talk about the record itself. Michelangelo Dying should be noted. You're like. I feel like over the last maybe half decade or so, you really kind of emerged not only as a, you know, you know, artist yourself, you've been making records for close to 20 years, really, but also as like a producer. I wonder if you can just kind of talk about how that role, that kind of element of your artistic practice emerged. Was it something you kind of sought out, or did it just sort of develop and kind of snowball over time?

[Kate Le Bon (speaking parts)]

It kind of happened by. I think it was Hugh, dear friend of mine who makes records under the Monica H A Klein. And he asked me to produce his first. Nice. First record, third record or something like that. And so that was kind of my first time in that role, really, and, you know, really enjoyed it. And I was probably really terrible at it. But, you know, it served some kind of purpose, I suppose. And then I think it was when, you know, Bradford Cox and I were friends and we talk a lot on the phone and he asked me to produce that Deer Hunter record.

[Ian]

Still the last Deer Hunter record. That is kind. What I wouldn't give for another Deer Hunter record at this point.

[Kate Le Bon (speaking parts)]

Oh, God. I mean, he's. He is. I could talk about him all day too. He's, you know, he's the real deal, Bradford Cox. You know, he's like, yeah, he's a magnificent artist and human and. Yeah, you know, that kind of quite a. You know, I guess they could have had anyone produce a record and he chose me, even though I was, you know, very green and. And I think making that record, it was like, you know, it was about 20 years worth of experience in one or I think it was three sessions. You know, what you learned from working with someone at Bradford.

[Ian]

Sure.

[Kate Le Bon (speaking parts)]

And that band, it's. It was, you know, it was hard at times, but it should be hard. Making records should be hard, you know, it should be testing for everyone involved at times, but it was also joyful at times and. Yeah, and a absolutely beautiful record, you know, but so that. That was kind of when it was. Became something a bit more real. And then what happened after that? Like, more, I think I did another one of Hughes Records and I did a Tim Presley record and I did some. Don't know, kind of started to kind of really co produce my own records with Sama Kuja. And then there was Devendra Banhart and an artist called John Grant. And then I see Jeff again, you know, kind of, you know, he has a similar, you know, Real Deal kind of vibe to Bradford. And he, Jeff Tweedy asked me to do the Wilco record and that was, you know, again, kind of quite a. You know, again, he could have had asked anyone. And so it's kind of really lovely to. To know that, you know, he wanted that kind of collaborative relationship whilst making, you know, record. So that was, that was really, really rewarding, you know, spending time with someone like that much time with someone like Jeff was, you know, you learn a lot about life when you sit with someone like Jeff. He's such a special human. Yeah. But, yeah, and so I can. Yeah, it's just, just. Just being asked, you know, really. Sure, yeah. I don't really want to be a producer, but I really enjoy it.

[Ian]

People keep wanting you to be a producer.

[Kate Le Bon (speaking parts)]

Yeah, I just finished working with. Do you know the band Dry Cleaning directly?

[Ian]

Sure, absolutely.

[Kate Le Bon (speaking parts)]

Yeah. So just finished working with them on their new record.

[Ian]

Oh, sick.

[Kate Le Bon (speaking parts)]

But, yeah, it's brilliant. They're such A Such a brilliant band.

[Ian]

Yeah, they. I feel like they might be in there, I don't know, in line to pop off or, you know, feel like they've got, you know, kind of some momentum behind them. I love the work that you did. I don't. I guess I don't know if you're credited as producer or, you know, just like on the tracks or whatever, but on Andrew Savage's last record also.

[Kate Le Bon (speaking parts)]

Oh, yeah, no, I was. I played piano and I think bass. Someone song. Yeah.

[Ian]

Fantastic record. He's another one of my favorite songwriters. I actually saw you guys on the. You did a. A run of dates here in California a couple years ago, I think, on the Pompeii tour, and there was one at Henry Miller Library in Big Sur that.

[Kate Le Bon (speaking parts)]

Oh, yeah, that was lovely, wasn't it? Yeah.

[Ian]

Unbelievable show.

[Kate Le Bon (speaking parts)]

Oh, it's lovely. Touring with him and kind of seeing him. He was working out the songs for that record on that, I remember.

[Ian]

Yeah.

[Kate Le Bon (speaking parts)]

Which is why, you know, it felt so right that we all. So I. I played on it. Dylan Hadley played drums on his record and you and Hinshaw would. Played saxophone. So, you know, we were all kind of touring together, so it felt very. Yeah, it felt very lovely and natural that we would all. Yeah. Play on his record.

[Ian]

And I wanted to ask actually, about Ewan, because I feel like his saxophone sound has really kind of become, you know, a signature part of the Kate Le Bon, you know, record sound.

[Kate Le Bon (speaking parts)]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Ian]

What is he, you know, what is it like working with him? What does he bring to, you know, the music, the records that you're making?

[Kate Le Bon (speaking parts)]

Yeah, I mean, he's. He's incredible. You know, he's become so integral, and we've worked together for years, kind of. And you know what I've asked. I don't. I have no idea how. I wish. God, I wish I could play the saxophone, but he won't. He won't teach me. But I think that's because he wants to keep his job.

[Ian]

His job. Yeah.

[Kate Le Bon (speaking parts)]

But. But you know what I ask from the saxophone, I don't necessarily know if it's possible or not, but he's never said to me, I can't do that. He's gone. Right. Okay. I'm gonna figure out how to. How to do that, you know, so we've. We've kind of. Between us kind of. I guess he's an uncoupled kind of traditional saxophone playing into something more kind of. I don't know if it's experimental. I don't really know you know, like I say, I don't know what the. But yeah, it's. It's something that, you know, he's. He's adapted to play in a way that is what I have asked from him and then some. You know, he's. He's so generous with. With kind of the time he'll put in to taking it to, you know, where I want it to be, but also writing these incredible parts that are really understanding of the emotion that I'm looking for and the kind of, you know, these. These kind of parts that are cyclical, that land with, you know, cyclical baselines that I'll clay or, you know, cyclical drum loops or whatever. So he's. He's kind of. Yeah, there's kind of been this evolution in his playing that has kind of, I don't know, just, you know, this marries itself to what I'm doing instrumentally and. But that. But, but, yeah, that real emotional understanding as well, of. Of, I suppose the saxophone being maybe the, you know, the second voice on the record and where. Especially with this last record, you know, which is quite emotional. It's those parts that I don't have maybe the. The voice or the words to kind of express something. I feel like the saxophone takes over and does that, you know, for me. So, yeah, he's, you know, we're very close friends and we make lots of music together outside of, you know, my records as well. So it's. Yeah. You know, it's all these lovely relationships that you forge that you. You know, that. That, I guess this. Yeah, this real generosity and understanding and give you. Yeah, this kind of. You have evolve together, which is really lovely.

[Ian]

Yeah. I remember when he pops. I think he pops up on a couple songs on the. The Andrew Savage record. And, you know, your vocals are there too, and it just. It feels like a, you know, I don't know, there's like a. A network of. That's sort of a mercenary term to use, I guess, but, you know, it's just. It's like everyone's working together towards this end. Sometimes that music pops up on one person's record and sometimes it pops up on someone else's record. You know, it's. It's cool.

[Kate Le Bon (speaking parts)]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's really lovely. Yeah.

[Ian]

And, yeah, I think the saxophone has like another voice that makes perfect sense. I say this about Bob sometimes and Dylan. The, like, the harmonica, you know, playing that he uses is so emotional because it literally is like his voice, you know, it's coming out of his chest. The Same way that, you know, words are. But it kind of has its own way of speaking and its own way of kind of delivering emotionality to a song. I kind of feel the same way about, you know, the saxophone on a lot of your records.

[Kate Le Bon (speaking parts)]

It's the breath, isn't it? It's the. Yeah, like an emotional synth, but. But sung.

[Ian]

Yeah. Something different, you know, when it comes out of your. When it comes out of your lungs instead of, you know, you're working at it with your fingers or your. Your feet. Well, on the new record or about the new record, you know, we've already kind of started talking about that. It sounded like. And you mentioned this a little bit earlier, you know, you had done some mixing sessions, I guess, in one place initially, and then you ended up coming back to Los Angeles, I guess it sounds to me. And there was a little information in the press packet too. Like it maybe took a bit of time or you worked on it a couple different places over a period of time. I wonder, was it. I don't know, did it take time to kind of get to the finished object here?

[Kate Le Bon (speaking parts)]

Yeah, I mean, I guess I found it as a hard plane to land, but it had become, you know, it wasn't the record that I thought I was going to write, but I, you know, you got to let some stuff out. Otherwise it kind of. It's, you know, can cause a kind of blockage or whatever. And. And so this was, you know, this was the record that kept coming up when I sat down to kind of write. And so I kind of rolled my sleeves up and thought that's. Have a, you know, let's stare this thing down. And it became a vessel to kind of experience and heal from heartache. So it was, I suppose, you know, maybe in. In it being, you know, that kind of. That medium to vessel to experience this kind of pain. It kind of had its own life, like, timeline that maybe I was. Yeah, it kind of let me know when it was time to put it to bed rather than. I couldn't dictate really. I kind of tried, but it kept going. It was. It's kind of bigger than me, which was. Yeah, you know, all sorts of problems and very understanding management and record label, thankfully. Yeah.

[Ian]

Was that. Is that distinct from like previous record making process? Because it's. I mean, it sounds as, you know, I don't know, tidy and smooth and beautiful and fully realized as any other Caleb on record at this point.

[Kate Le Bon (speaking parts)]

Yeah, I mean, I think. I don't really have a repeatable process, you know, And I think when I came to understand that, that's okay. And what I do like to do is kind of have a set of circumstances where I can, I guess, you know, just employ a vacant mind to. To experience things through music and to make something that I'm not expecting to make. So. But this record, I think, was a bit. Bit more kind of disorientating in a sense, you know, where I kept trying to sidestep this, you know, heartache and I suppose make something. I thought I was gonna make something more angular and industrial, but I suppose that was also a real kind of, like, distraction from this record, if that makes sense. And. And so it was a little bit kind of, you know, I think music and love have a similar kind of feeling to me in my life. You know, they're two things I can get completely lost in. They're two things that I can feel like all the ages and no age at all in. So when you're experiencing one quite intensely through the other, then it's. It's quite an easy. An easy thing to get lost in. But I think there was a. You know, there was a purpose to that, too. So, yeah, it was a kind of cathartic kind of exorcism. And like I said, there were. I mean, summer as well. I mean, everyone was so. So kind of patient with me as I kind of, kind of, you know, carted this thing around, you know, like, I'll just take it here and then that'll be it. And then, you know, I'm taking it to Joshua Tree, and then that'll be it. Or. And then everyone just like, oh, for God's sake, come on. You know, he's. That's. That's kind of. You know, I think we're living in, you know, in the. In. In an industry where there is this kind of like, make something good, make something real, but hurry up. This is rush. And I. You know, it was also a lesson in not being rattled by that. You know, if you're going to make something that is going to exist and is going to exist for, you know, longer than you are, then you kind of have to see it through in a way that isn't kind of compromised by. This needs to come out in September, you know, because that stuff isn't really. That stuff isn't really real. Although not everyone thinks that. That I work with. Yeah.

[Ian]

The presence of. Or, I mean, yeah, I guess the presence of the desert. You know, Joshua Tree there in Southern Californ. I wonder, just. Do you feel like that reflects in the music at all. Because, I mean, that's just an unbelievable part of the world. I don't need to tell you that. But anyone who hasn't been there, it's just kind of. It's almost like it isn't of this world. And it comes on so quickly as you emerge from Los Angeles.

[Kate Le Bon (speaking parts)]

Yeah. I mean, yeah. I think emotionally it's a lot on the record was. Parts of the record in my mind, were kind of set there. And like I was saying before, you know, I like to. It's nice to go places, to escape, so you can kind of access this. You know, you're not burdened by familiarity and anything that kind of can encumber you. But I think at that point I was looking for familiarity to try and finish the record. So it served the purpose of. Of that, you know, of. Of actually visiting. Going back to a place where a lot of the record had been kind of set in my. In my mind. And. And again, you know, it is. But it is also a place where, even if you're really familiar with it, it feels. Every day you wake up there, it feels like you're struck with this kind of like, oh, my God, it's. I am, you know, so small and insignificant in a really reassuring way, you know, not in a scary way.

[Ian]

Reassuring way.

[Kate Le Bon (speaking parts)]

Yeah. You know, like, cool. This is. You know, this is going to be here for a long, long time. And I'm. I'm not, you know.

[Ian]

Sure puts things in. None of that, you know, I. Puts things in perspective a little bit.

[Kate Le Bon (speaking parts)]

Yeah.

[Ian]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[Kate Le Bon (singing parts)]

Cry soft hearts moving Some come undone Lying on the ground like they've never.

[Kate Le Bon (speaking parts)]

Known.

[Kate Le Bon (singing parts)]

I see you watch me work for your slow hand Draping my body with no rhythm Just desert the day the night is.

[Ian]

I wanted to ask about the. The title or titles in general? You know, I don't. I'm not here to ask a magician to explain her tricks.

[Kate Le Bon (speaking parts)]

There you go.

[Ian]

I do feel like, you know, there is just something about a Kate Le Bon record title that is. I remember Crab Day, you know, have always loved that title, even though I don't quite still know what Crab Day might be, I guess. Michelangelo Dying, obviously, I think is a lyric that shows up in, I think, love unrehearsed. I wonder if you could just maybe talk about the mental process of arriving at a title in general. Is it just a matter of, you know, it when you hear it or what?

[Kate Le Bon (speaking parts)]

Yeah, I mean, it just felt like, you know, I don't want to derog the. The meaning of the title, to me, it's got, you know, multiple, multiple layers and it's nice, I think, when people can kind of figure out their own meaning or, you know, it can change depending on, you know, how are you listening when you're listening, what's going on, you know, in your life when you're listening. But it feel that, you know, the, the kind of. It's like it's such a ridiculous title, I think, you know, it's kind of so over the top in a way. And I. And I guess that lends itself to how ridiculous and over the top heartache can feel. And it's, you know, it's like. It's like a full on opera when you're in the midst of it. So, you know, there's that kind of element to it and there's more kind of, you know, it's. There are reasons for it that I probably would never share with anyone.

[Ian]

Sure.

[Kate Le Bon (speaking parts)]

And there are. Yeah. It. To me, it kind of encapsulated the kind of an element of a lot. Elements of lots of different parts of, you know, of the record. It kind of felt like the. The perfect ridiculous heading to it all.

[Ian]

Yeah, I just, I feel like every, you know, one of your records, you know, the title even going back to like Mug Museum, which I think was the first one of your records I started listening to. It just kind of. It's this perfect little turn of phrase that encapsulates the whole world of the record and doesn't necessarily have, you know, like you said, you can kind of bring your own meaning to it as a listener. But, you know, Reward Pompeii, I just kind of love all of these. They just. They sound like Kate Le Bon album titles to me, I guess is what I'm saying.

[Kate Le Bon (speaking parts)]

They are. Yeah. But. Yeah. Thank you. You answered the question much more eloquently than I did.

[Ian]

On the note of those, those last couple records also. And I think it says something again along the lines of this in, in some of the. The copy that went along with the record. But I do. And it's funny that it mentioned this because I got the sense of this just listening to the album on its own, but it does kind of feel of a piece with what you kind of started to do. Have started to do since Reward and Pompeii. You know, I don't want to call it a trilogy necessarily, but it feels like there's some sense of continuity between those three records. Does that, you know, do you hear that at all?

[Kate Le Bon (speaking parts)]

Absolutely. You know, I guess up Until Reward had made records in a different way. You know, it had been like rehearsing a live band and there'd been a producer and. And it would all happen very quickly. For financial reasons more than anything.

[Ian]

Sure.

[Kate Le Bon (speaking parts)]

And so I think when Reward kind of happened and we tried it that way and it wasn't finished, and I just had more to kind of extract. And it ended up for lots of different reasons, being just myself and Sama working on Reward to finish it. And I just had this different relationship with it where I was. And I know it sounds ridiculous to say I was. I was kind of more familiar and I was more involved with Reward than I had been with any other record that I'd made. You so. And so I can't. Yeah, there was this kind of. This time that I had allowed myself to sit and really craft parts, and instead of, I think, you know, Crab Day, there was a lot of spontaneity that was kind of embraced. And that's really lovely and that was really exciting at the time, but you start craving other ways to be excited. And it kind of. Reward was actually becoming hyper focused and really kind of crafting parts and finding sounds with Summer and. And I was like, God, you know, this is kind of how. This is how I want to make the. The next record. And so the next record was an even more kind of, you know, Pompeii. It was just me and Sama and I played everything apart from the saxophones and drums and really got into like, you know, the nitty gritty of how bass lines and guitar lines all kind of work together and then how the synth lines all slotted in with that. And so it became this really kind of intricate puzzle that I was building. And then I guess, you know. Yeah, that was. And it was a pandemic and, you know, everything was super intense and. And then. Yeah, so I do feel. I do feel in many ways like Reward feels like my. My. To me, like my first record in many ways, you know, as a solo artist, even though, you know, technically it's not. I mean, so, yeah, My Clange are dying, you know, again, kind of similar kind of approach really, where. But bringing in some different musicians, bringing in Paul Jones who is like, you know, I. I'm very limited when it comes to playing the piano. You know, I can chug my way through a song and I can write kind of a part, but Paul Jones is just, you know, he's virtuoso kind of piano player. So he. His piano playing to me, you know, opened up so Many parts of the record, but, you know, as well as. Again, you know, that relationship with you and of him kind of taking things up a notch because he understands, you know, and is, you know, working to. To take it up a notch with the saxophone and so. Yeah, I think. Yeah, I see what you're saying. It does feel like a trilogy of sorts.

[Ian]

Yeah, sure. It kind of struck. I guess I didn't realize that, like, quite how much of just all of the parts you. You were responsible or, you know, are responsible for on these records. It sort of strikes me to go back to Bradford again of, like, what he does or what he did on, like, some Atlas Sound records and stuff, where it sounds like a whole, you know, band basically, but it's just, you know, one individual.

[Kate Le Bon (speaking parts)]

Yeah.

[Ian]

Well, and then that kind of begs the question, or at least the question, you know, when you go out on the road, you know, take these songs around the world because that's the whole other part of the world or part of the job. Do you feel, you know, certainly over these last couple records, you know, trying to really get it right and kind of create, you know, the. The. The exact right song, you know, on the record. Out of all these component parts, when you have other people on stage responsible for recreating that music along with you, I don't know, are you looking for an attempt at recreating the way it sounds on the record as closely as possible, or are you a little less, you know, kind of concerned about that and more kind of willing to see where these other people can take the music along with you?

[Kate Le Bon (speaking parts)]

No, I'm, you know, you. I want it to sound like the record. I want it to feel like, you know, that world that, you know, I. I built with Sama. And so it's. Ewan is, you know, he will. He's the md. He and Ioti, in the process, are kind of figuring out how to. How to do it all. But. So he's obviously playing Dill. Who, Dylan Hadley. She's playing drums. And Paul Jones is playing piano. And then there's additional. Toko Yasuda is playing bass. I feel like it's important to me that it's a woman on the base, because I feel like there's a. I don't know, just a different. There's a lot of emotion to me in the bass lines. I don't know. Sure, you know, me kind of inventing that, but I feel like it's. It's played differently by a woman. And so, you know, I mean, that's like the best rhythm section I can imagine. Toko and Dill. And then. And then Steve, who is a, you know, musician and a dear friend that I played with for years. He's going to be playing kind of auxiliary stuff. So it's a. It's a big band and it's completely inaffordable in a sense, you know, but I think it's so important, you know, So I kind of just hope that, you know, you sell a few T shirts and I can make it work.

[Ian]

But get enough to make the next record.

[Kate Le Bon (speaking parts)]

Yeah, but it's. But it's important, you know, it's, you know, playing. Making records and playing live. It's really all I care about. And all the other kind of stuff, you know, the social media stuff that sometimes becomes bigger than the thing itself, I have gotten not much capacity for. But playing live is one of the. It's one of the greatest things. I'm so looking forward to it. And San Francisco is one of my favorite, favorite places to play.

[Ian]

There's a great town for live music. I think you're playing.

[Kate Le Bon (speaking parts)]

Oh, gosh.

[Ian]

Gilmore here, I want to say.

[Kate Le Bon (speaking parts)]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ian]

Great room.

[Kate Le Bon (speaking parts)]

Yeah. So I'm. Yeah, I'm. I'm really. Yeah, I'm so, so excited. The band is incredible. You know, it's. It's pieced together from. From all the. All the right. Brilliant people who are incredible musicians, but also just really like, you know, amazing, beautiful humans to spend that much time with.

[Ian]

So it sounds like you're generally, you know, the tour experience is an enjoyable one for you, I guess, you know, because a lot of people I talk to sometimes, you know, they also enjoy playing the music, obviously. But the literal, like, physical experience, I guess, of being. Being on tour is, it's. It sounds to me, having never done it myself, like it can. Can be a challenge again, physically, mentally, emotionally, maybe all of the above.

[Kate Le Bon (speaking parts)]

But when. If you surround yourself with really, really good people, honestly, to me, it's like an amazing holiday. Adults don't usually get to go on, you know, where you just go on a field trip with all your, you know, friends and you get to play music.

[Ian]

So you put it that way, it sounds pretty great, actually. I think you've got some dates. I know you've got the US Tour, I think, later this year into next year. But before that, I think you're doing what, uk, European dates?

[Kate Le Bon (speaking parts)]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ian]

What is the experience of touring, you know, in America versus touring in, you know, Europe? I guess. Do you get different things from the audience? Do you Feel different on a daily basis. Obviously, as a, you know, Welsh person from Wales yourself.

[Kate Le Bon (speaking parts)]

I am, yeah. I think you really. I really feel the. The kind of benefit of, you know, college radio in the US that seems to make a hell of a difference to. I don't know, there just seems to be a younger, more diverse, more kind of, let's have it kind of crowd in America, you know, bit more easier to. I mean, I think. I don't know. Did you see that show we played in. Oh, God. What's it called in the. Is it called the Musical in San Francisco? The hall of Fame?

[Ian]

Great American musical.

[Kate Le Bon (speaking parts)]

Yes. Thank you. Yeah. And it was. I think it's one of my favorite shows I've ever played. It was like. Like screaming bands, which doesn't happen to me often, but it was like. I felt like I was in the Beatles for about an hour. That was really nice. So it's. Yeah, I. I feel it's. It's a bit more excitable. Excited in. In America, but that's not, you know, that's not, you know, we. Paris, strangely, is kind of like that, too, and. And London is. Is pretty great. And. Yeah, I guess it's. Yeah, you know, it's. Yeah, sounds good. We'll see what happens. Yeah. Yeah.

[Ian]

A challenge to all your European and English fans to step their game up next time they're at a Kate Le Bon show. Do a little more screaming.

[Kate Le Bon (speaking parts)]

It's awful, but it does make you feel great when people are screaming.

[Ian]

I'm sure it does. You mentioned a minute ago the social media aspect of stuff, you know, not getting a whole lot from that, which I, you know, completely understand, particularly these days, but, you know, that, I guess that concept along with, you know, more, you know, just bona fide as a. As a producer and then obviously your own growing success as a, you know, artist yourself. I guess I wonder, you know, kind of how you feel about your relationship to an audience that might be growing, certainly is growing, but may not maybe be as familiar with what you've done for the last 10, 15 years.

[Kate Le Bon (speaking parts)]

Yeah, I mean, I don't know really. I don't really think about it. I think about this record. I'm only concerned with this record at the moment. And once that's done, I'm going to make something new. So I'm not really. Again, it's that kind of. I can't be. Don't. It's like shedding a skin when you make something and then you do it and then you move on. And I think sometimes when you, you know, you can get kind of, I don't know, trap yourself a little bit by being retrospective or, you know, I. It's. I like forward motion. I like looking forward to the next thing. And I guess, you know, I feel like there's this idea that social media is the way to interact with your fans. And that's, you know, true, obviously, but live, it's live where you really.

[Ian]

It's a different thing. Yeah.

[Kate Le Bon (speaking parts)]

Yeah, but that's where that's kind of. To me, the. The most important kind of, you know, that kind of transference of energy between an audience and a band is like magic. And I. To me, the social media kind of world, it kind of dilutes that, you know, drains it a little bit. Yeah. You know, kind of. I remember I was younger and I like, my overriding feeling of being in a room with a band that I loved was. I can't. I cannot believe, even though obviously it's been planned, that I am in this room with this band that I love, with the people who've made this music that I love. And. And the wonder of that I think is kind of lost because, you know, everyone is pulling the curtain back and is available all the time to kind of show you what they're up to. And I love. I just love that kind of mystery in that. And they're making. Making those moments when you're in. In a room with someone who you. You haven't had access to. They're just. They're there and it means more. Maybe. I don't know.

[Ian]

Sure.

[Kate Le Bon (speaking parts)]

But I, you know, serves. Obviously serves a purpose. I'm just. I just can't be. I don't know, just. Just kind of like forgetting about social media.

[Ian]

Yeah, no, I think that's the. The way to be. The mystery, I think, is a. Is a. Is an important quality and one that we seem to be losing with each passing day when, you know, if you're just talking to someone and there's some random, I don't know, historical factoid you don't remember or maybe slightly remember, you can just look it up on, you know, and like that mystery sense. I was talking about a Billy Joel record recently because we've been doing a bunch of Billy Joel stuff and, you know, he has 10. It's very different kind of thing, but he tends to, you know, talk about the inspiration behind. Behind each individual song. You know, what he was. What he was thinking about when he wrote this one versus that one. The lyrics and stuff. And I guess there's. There's something to be said for that if you're trying to put that across. But, like, to me, I think the mystery of what a song might be is. Is just as much a part of the song as the music itself, if that makes sense.

[Kate Le Bon (speaking parts)]

Absolutely. And I think if you, you know, you make something, you let it go. It doesn't belong to you anymore. And I think it's nice to. Yeah. For people to kind of form their own relationship with it that isn't kind of defined by someone telling you what it means, but it's all. Yeah. It's all content, isn't it?

[Ian]

Well, yeah, but we're doing it.

[Kate Le Bon (speaking parts)]

Yeah. You know. Yeah.

[Ian]

Okay. I think we can probably call it there. I've kept you long enough. Thank you so much, Kate. This was fantastic.

[Kate Le Bon (speaking parts)]

Yeah. Thank you so much. Thank you.

[Kate Le Bon (singing parts)]

You will give up? Open up in the valve dress? It's a holiday? It's a birthday? Is it worth it? Is it worth it? Happy birthday to.

[Ian]

Thanks again to Kate Le bon the record is Michelangelo dying out this Friday, September 26th on Mexican Summer. It's very good music. Jokerman.

[Kate Le Bon (singing parts)]

Make a joke of love and of living? Is it worth it? Is it worth it? Happy birthday to you? I thought about your mother? I hope she knew I loved her? We'll lose a spillover? Your joy? No faith with the sun?

[Kate Le Bon (speaking parts)]

Just.