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In Conversation: CATE LE BON

Jokermen

Mon Sep 22 2025

Summary

Jokermen Podcast – In Conversation: CATE LE BON

Date: September 22, 2025
Host: Ian (Jokermen)
Guest: Cate Le Bon

Episode Overview

In this episode, Jokermen’s Ian sits down with acclaimed Welsh musician Cate Le Bon to discuss her forthcoming album Michelangelo Dying, her enduring relationship with her artistic heroes (most notably John Cale), and the evolution of her songwriting, production style, and performance practices. The conversation offers an intimate look at Cate’s artistic process, her influences, the importance of collaboration, and her thoughts on creativity, touring, and the role of mystery in music.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Cate Le Bon’s Connection to John Cale and Welsh Artistic Heritage

John Cale as Influence and Collaborator
- Cate recalls her early exposure to The Velvet Underground and, later, to Cale’s solo work, describing a near “religious” devotion to his artistry.
  
  "He's a wonder, you know... completely, you know. Yes, he is Welsh, but that never made him more knowable. It was still this kind of fantastical element to him."
  — Cate Le Bon, [03:50]
- Cate shares the emotional story of being contacted by Cale, which prompted an immediate, tearful reaction out of disbelief and excitement:
  
  "I just remember crying in the workshop... this mythical idol... was looking for me."
  — Cate Le Bon, [07:01]
- The collaboration began with Cate performing at the Barbican with Cale, later touring with him and being tasked with singing “Sunday Morning.” The relationship culminates in Cale contributing vocals to her new album.
  
  "Only John Cale can make me cry."
  — Cate Le Bon, [11:14]
Artistic Inspiration from Cale’s Approach
- Cate admires Cale’s artistic evolution, constant reinvention, and refusal to dwell in nostalgia.
  
  "He's constantly exploring, isn't he?... You don't get much retrospectiveness from John... he wants to play new stuff."
  — Cate Le Bon, [12:24]
Favorite John Cale Albums
- Cate lists Fear, Paris 1919, Artificial Intelligence, and especially "Dying on the Vine" as personal favorites.
  
  "It's a masterpiece. It might be one of mine."
  — Cate Le Bon, [13:54]

2. Cate Le Bon as Producer & Collaborator

Emergence as a Producer
- Production began with helping friends (notably H. Hawkline/Huw Evans), eventually leading to working with Bradford Cox (Deerhunter), Tim Presley, Devendra Banhart, John Grant, and Wilco.
  
  "I don't really want to be a producer, but I really enjoy it."
  — Cate Le Bon, [19:54]
- She emphasizes learning from deeply engaged collaborations, noting Bradford Cox and Jeff Tweedy (“the real deal”) as especially impactful.
  
  "Spending time with someone like Jeff... you learn a lot about life."
  — Cate Le Bon, [19:24]
- Recent production work includes the new Dry Cleaning album and playing with Andrew Savage.

3. Signature Sound: Collaborators and Instrumentation

Evolving Band Dynamics
- Saxophonist Euan (Ewan) Hinchliffe, long-time collaborator, is described as offering a “second voice” on her records:
  
  "Especially with this last record... it's those parts that I don’t have maybe the... words to express something. I feel like the saxophone takes over and does that for me."
  — Cate Le Bon, [24:11]
- The cross-pollination of musicians between her projects and peers is a recurring motif, creating a sense of an artistic “network”:
  
  “It's like everyone's working together towards this end... sometimes that music pops up on one person's record and sometimes it pops up on someone else's record.”
  — Ian, [25:03]

4. Making ‘Michelangelo Dying’: Creative Process & Emotional Themes

Birth of the Album
- The record took longer than anticipated—Cate describes it as a “hard plane to land,” shaped by personal heartache and emotional catharsis.
  
  “It wasn't the record that I thought I was going to write... it became a vessel to kind of experience and heal from heartache.”
  — Cate Le Bon, [26:59]
- The process included multiple mixing sessions (including in Joshua Tree), and Cate notes the music and the desert landscape are, for her, intertwined.
  
  “Every day you wake up there, it feels like you're struck with this kind of like, ‘oh, my god, I am so small and insignificant in a really reassuring way.’”
  — Cate Le Bon, [34:01]
Approach to Albums Since Reward (Trilogy Feel)
- Cate acknowledges a trilogy-like continuity between Reward, Pompeii, and Michelangelo Dying, marked by meticulous, solitary songcraft, and a new focus on sonic detail:
  
  “To me, Reward feels like my first record in many ways, you know, as a solo artist.”
  — Cate Le Bon, [41:52]
Songwriting & Title Selection
- Her album titles (e.g., Crab Day, Mug Museum, Michelangelo Dying) are chosen for their evocative and open-ended quality:
  
  “It's nice when people can kind of figure out their own meaning... it's such a ridiculous title... and I guess that lends itself to how ridiculous and over the top heartache can feel.”
  — Cate Le Bon, [36:02]

5. The Live Experience & Touring Philosophy

Cate prioritizes reproducing the sonic world of her records in live performance, assembling an outstanding, emotionally resonant band.

“I want it to sound like the record. I want it to feel like, you know, that world that I built...”
— Cate Le Bon, [44:11]
She cherishes touring with friends and views it as an adult “holiday”:

“To me, it’s like an amazing holiday adults don’t usually get... you get to play music.”
— Cate Le Bon, [47:43]
Notable contrast in US versus UK/European touring:

“There just seems to be a younger, more diverse... more excitable, excited crowd in America.”
— Cate Le Bon, [48:40]

6. Audience, Social Media, and the Value of Mystery

Cate expresses ambivalence toward social media as an artist-audience bridge and emphasizes appreciating mystery:

“That kind of transference of energy between an audience and a band is like magic... the social media kind of world, it dilutes that.”
— Cate Le Bon, [52:14]
On artistic progression and audience relationships:

“It's like shedding a skin when you make something, and then you do it and then you move on... I like forward motion. I like looking forward to the next thing.”
— Cate Le Bon, [51:12]
She avoids explaining her songs’ meanings, preferring listeners create their own interpretations:

“You make something, you let it go. It doesn't belong to you anymore.”
— Cate Le Bon, [54:34]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

On John Cale’s Artsitic Evolution:

“It's like he... shedding his skin and he moves on. You know, it's this constant kind of movement and fluidity and curiosity...”
— Cate Le Bon, [03:50]
On the Significance of Sonic Relationships:

“The saxophone being maybe the, you know, the second voice on the record... those parts that I don’t have maybe the. The voice or the words to kind of express... the saxophone takes over and does that, you know, for me.”
— Cate Le Bon, [24:11]
On Album Titles and Ambiguity:

“It's like a full on opera when you’re in the midst of [heartache]... there are reasons for it [the title] that I probably would never share with anyone.”
— Cate Le Bon, [36:02]
On the Live Experience vs. Social Media:

“…To me, the social media kind of world, it kind of dilutes [the magic]... the wonder of that I think is kind of lost because... everyone is pulling the curtain back and is available all the time...”
— Cate Le Bon, [52:14]

Timestamps for Important Segments

[00:00–02:31] — Introduction by Ian & discussion of the new album
[03:50–14:02] — Cate reflects on John Cale, their relationship, and Welsh music
[16:00–21:27] — Cate’s evolution as a producer/collaborator and friendships with other artists
[21:27–26:15] — The role of saxophonist Ewan Hinchliffe & collaborative networks
[26:59–32:19] — Making of Michelangelo Dying: artistic process, emotional context, recording/mixing locations
[35:17–39:07] — Album titling, relation to previous work, “trilogy” concept
[44:11–46:47] — Assembling the live band, recreating studio sound on tour
[47:43–50:13] — Touring experience in the US vs. Europe
[51:12–54:34] — Thoughts on social media, artistic mystery, and audience connection
[54:34–56:00] — Letting go of work, ceding meaning to audience

Conclusion

This episode serves as a deep dive into Cate Le Bon's creative universe, exploring the tension between transparency and mystery, the emotional forces driving her writing and producing, and the significance of community in her art. Listeners come away with a sense of her meticulous approach, reverence for collaboration (especially with Welsh icon John Cale), and a rare commitment to preserving magic and wonder both in the music itself and in her connection with her audience.

For more: Cate Le Bon’s new record Michelangelo Dying is out Friday, September 26th, 2025 on Mexican Summer.

End of Summary

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Transcript

Ian (0:00)

Welcome back to Jokerman in Conversation, I'm Ian. Today my guest Kate Le Bon who is back this week with her first new record in I think three years since Pompeii. Great record from 2022, Michelangelo dying, the new one out this Friday on Mexican Summer. I'm sure you know, for most people listening, Kate needs no and introduction but to give, to give her one anyways. You know, one of the most interesting, creative, forward looking, I think artists of the last 10, 15 years at this point. I mentioned to her, I think in our conversation, but you know, I got into her, I guess 2012 at this point, something like that when Mug Museum came out. Great record and every, every album she's put out since then, Crab Day, Reward, Pompeii and certainly this new one, Michelangelo Dying has just been a continuation of furtherance of her sound which is one of the. I don't know how to describe it exactly. I mean, you know, all the standard indie rock terminology I'm sure applies angular, smooth, sensuous. But you know, you listen to a Kate Le Bon song and it just, you know, it's a Kate Laban song, you know, when you hear it, that's the best way to describe it. And that is as true as ever on this new record which features should be noted certain Welshmen that we're fond of talking about here on Jokerman podcast. John Cale appears on the ninth track Ride. Great song. And Kate was kind enough to tell me a little bit about her history working with John, which goes quite deep at this point actually. It's fascinating. Two Welsh icons, very thoughtful speaker about her own music and the work of others, still leaving plenty of mystery to the music. At the same time, here's Kate.

Kate Le Bon (singing parts) (2:31)

I'm not a gracious daughter I'm not religious on the water it's about time it's about time I want to sit to regret.

Ian (2:47)

Most of it recording there. Cool. And I'll tape a little intro separate so we can just kind of roll right into things. Don't need to stumble through any awkward stuff. Kate, thanks so much for joining here. Gotta start. I mean there's nowhere else to start for me at least I don't know, you know how. Presumably not terribly familiar with what we've done on our podcast, but we spent like two, like two years basically listening to and talking about every single John Cale record ever. From all the Velvet stuff and vintage violence up to Mercy and Poptical Illusion now and he's here on the new record. I got a couple questions just about him in general. But I wonder if you could start, I mean, maybe just by talking a little bit about his status as a Welsh musician yourself, as maybe the inheritor of a certain type of Welsh artistry.

Kate Le Bon (speaking parts) (3:50)

Yeah, I mean, I don't know where to begin, really. You know, I kind of have always. You know, you're exposed to the Velvet Underground at an age where you don't really remember. It just becomes part of the fabric of music, I suppose. Or at least, you know, for me. And then. But then coming across, you know, and really. And realizing that John Cale was a solo artist in his own right and. And just falling in, really falling in love with his music in a way that is. I don't know what the word is. You know, it's kind of almost religious. He's a wonder, you know, and. And completely, you know. Yes, he is Welsh, but that never made him more knowable. It was still this kind of fantastical element to him, you know, because I suppose he. He was part of, you know, that kind of scene that seems so, you know, iconic and untouchable. So I. Yeah, I've been. I've been a massive fan of his for. For a long time and just seeing how, you know, he makes something incredible and then he. It's like he. It's shedding his skin and he moves on. You know, it's this constant kind of movement and fluidity and curiosity and still, you know, the. The last record is just. Yeah. Yeah, I, you know, can't stop listening to it.

Kate Le Bon (speaking parts) (22:10)

But. But you know what I ask from the saxophone, I don't necessarily know if it's possible or not, but he's never said to me, I can't do that. He's gone. Right. Okay. I'm gonna figure out how to. How to do that, you know, so we've. We've kind of. Between us kind of. I guess he's an uncoupled kind of traditional saxophone playing into something more kind of. I don't know if it's experimental. I don't really know you know, like I say, I don't know what the. But yeah, it's. It's something that, you know, he's. He's adapted to play in a way that is what I have asked from him and then some. You know, he's. He's so generous with. With kind of the time he'll put in to taking it to, you know, where I want it to be, but also writing these incredible parts that are really understanding of the emotion that I'm looking for and the kind of, you know, these. These kind of parts that are cyclical, that land with, you know, cyclical baselines that I'll clay or, you know, cyclical drum loops or whatever. So he's. He's kind of. Yeah, there's kind of been this evolution in his playing that has kind of, I don't know, just, you know, this marries itself to what I'm doing instrumentally and. But that. But, but, yeah, that real emotional understanding as well, of. Of, I suppose the saxophone being maybe the, you know, the second voice on the record and where. Especially with this last record, you know, which is quite emotional. It's those parts that I don't have maybe the. The voice or the words to kind of express something. I feel like the saxophone takes over and does that, you know, for me. So, yeah, he's, you know, we're very close friends and we make lots of music together outside of, you know, my records as well. So it's. Yeah. You know, it's all these lovely relationships that you forge that you. You know, that. That, I guess this. Yeah, this real generosity and understanding and give you. Yeah, this kind of. You have evolve together, which is really lovely.

Kate Le Bon (speaking parts) (29:00)

Yeah, I mean, I think. I don't really have a repeatable process, you know, And I think when I came to understand that, that's okay. And what I do like to do is kind of have a set of circumstances where I can, I guess, you know, just employ a vacant mind to. To experience things through music and to make something that I'm not expecting to make. So. But this record, I think, was a bit. Bit more kind of disorientating in a sense, you know, where I kept trying to sidestep this, you know, heartache and I suppose make something. I thought I was gonna make something more angular and industrial, but I suppose that was also a real kind of, like, distraction from this record, if that makes sense. And. And so it was a little bit kind of, you know, I think music and love have a similar kind of feeling to me in my life. You know, they're two things I can get completely lost in. They're two things that I can feel like all the ages and no age at all in. So when you're experiencing one quite intensely through the other, then it's. It's quite an easy. An easy thing to get lost in. But I think there was a. You know, there was a purpose to that, too. So, yeah, it was a kind of cathartic kind of exorcism. And like I said, there were. I mean, summer as well. I mean, everyone was so. So kind of patient with me as I kind of, kind of, you know, carted this thing around, you know, like, I'll just take it here and then that'll be it. And then, you know, I'm taking it to Joshua Tree, and then that'll be it. Or. And then everyone just like, oh, for God's sake, come on. You know, he's. That's. That's kind of. You know, I think we're living in, you know, in the. In. In an industry where there is this kind of like, make something good, make something real, but hurry up. This is rush. And I. You know, it was also a lesson in not being rattled by that. You know, if you're going to make something that is going to exist and is going to exist for, you know, longer than you are, then you kind of have to see it through in a way that isn't kind of compromised by. This needs to come out in September, you know, because that stuff isn't really. That stuff isn't really real. Although not everyone thinks that. That I work with. Yeah.

Kate Le Bon (speaking parts) (39:25)

And so I think when Reward kind of happened and we tried it that way and it wasn't finished, and I just had more to kind of extract. And it ended up for lots of different reasons, being just myself and Sama working on Reward to finish it. And I just had this different relationship with it where I was. And I know it sounds ridiculous to say I was. I was kind of more familiar and I was more involved with Reward than I had been with any other record that I'd made. You so. And so I can't. Yeah, there was this kind of. This time that I had allowed myself to sit and really craft parts, and instead of, I think, you know, Crab Day, there was a lot of spontaneity that was kind of embraced. And that's really lovely and that was really exciting at the time, but you start craving other ways to be excited. And it kind of. Reward was actually becoming hyper focused and really kind of crafting parts and finding sounds with Summer and. And I was like, God, you know, this is kind of how. This is how I want to make the. The next record. And so the next record was an even more kind of, you know, Pompeii. It was just me and Sama and I played everything apart from the saxophones and drums and really got into like, you know, the nitty gritty of how bass lines and guitar lines all kind of work together and then how the synth lines all slotted in with that. And so it became this really kind of intricate puzzle that I was building. And then I guess, you know. Yeah, that was. And it was a pandemic and, you know, everything was super intense and. And then. Yeah, so I do feel. I do feel in many ways like Reward feels like my. My. To me, like my first record in many ways, you know, as a solo artist, even though, you know, technically it's not. I mean, so, yeah, My Clange are dying, you know, again, kind of similar kind of approach really, where. But bringing in some different musicians, bringing in Paul Jones who is like, you know, I. I'm very limited when it comes to playing the piano. You know, I can chug my way through a song and I can write kind of a part, but Paul Jones is just, you know, he's virtuoso kind of piano player. So he. His piano playing to me, you know, opened up so Many parts of the record, but, you know, as well as. Again, you know, that relationship with you and of him kind of taking things up a notch because he understands, you know, and is, you know, working to. To take it up a notch with the saxophone and so. Yeah, I think. Yeah, I see what you're saying. It does feel like a trilogy of sorts.