In Conversation: DANIEL LOPATIN

Summary

Jokermen Podcast: In Conversation with Daniel Lopatin (Oneohtrix Point Never)

Date: December 29, 2025
Episode Focus: Scoring "Marty Supreme," Creative Processes, Hauntology, and More

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode of Jokermen brings Daniel Lopatin—celebrated as Oneohtrix Point Never and most recently the composer for "Marty Supreme"—into an in-depth conversation about scoring the film, the philosophy and aesthetics behind his musical decisions, the film's ambitious fusion of periods and genres, and broader threads through his discography. The hosts (Evan and co-host) explore how the score subverts historical expectations, meaningfully connects to themes of creation and nostalgia, and builds on both Lopatin’s personal history and wider cultural references. The discussion is laid-back, geeky, and intellectually expansive, echoing Jokermen’s signature style.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. "Marty Supreme" as a Singular Film Event

• [00:37] Hosts praise "Marty Supreme" as "movie of the year," lauding Timotheé Chalamet’s "blow away performance."
• The film channels the bold innovation and charisma of a young Jewish artist in 1950s NYC, likened to Bob Dylan "going electric" ([01:35]).

2. Score as Anachronistic Genius

• [02:52] The score blends 1980s synthesizers with the look and feel of a 1950s period piece.
• Lopatin explains:
  “It’s not unlike what I would imagine a Donald Fagen music video would be like in the 80s… Nightfly.” ([13:49])
• The intention was deliberately to "disrespect" period accuracy, unlocking a dreamlike, future-haunted tension in the film.
  “Who are we trying to impress here?... No, let’s actually kind of disrespect [the period]. And immediately we were happy and everything was unlocked…” ([13:59])

3. Film’s Dense, Meta Layers and Casting

• [03:33] Lopatin shares how repeated viewings exposed layers: focusing on costumes, set design, and cameos (e.g., Isaac Mizrahi, Nomi Fry, Larry "Ratso" Sloman).
• Extended riff (04:47–06:13) on Ratso Sloman—a recurring figure in music and media—emphasizing the movie’s “Renaissance man" energy and wild cameos.

4. Marketing, Publicity, and Meta-Performance

• The famous blimp in the film’s marketing is discussed.
  Lopatin reveals: “They want to put all of us in the blimp... I thought it was like, basically a threat.” ([07:25])
• Timothée Chalamet is highlighted for his genius in turning potentially awkward PR into meta-performance art, embodying the spirit of the film.

5. Chalamet’s Performance as Artistic Athleticism

• [10:09] Lopatin describes Chalamet as treating acting with the discipline and charisma of an Olympic athlete:
  “It’s like a completely bizarre return to a time of brazen enjoyment of one celebrity and one skill... It’s actually... genuine.” ([10:53])
• The hosts note the “joyous” and “refreshingly non-arrogant” tone of his performance.

6. Compositional Choice: Texture, Rhythm, and Synthesis

• [13:49–18:00] Lopatin details his process:
  • Rejected period-authentic orchestration for 80s-influenced synths and mallets.
  • The interplay between classical and electronic modernity becomes a metaphor for Marty’s identity—projecting a “dream of himself” into the future.
  • Inspiration from needle drops (e.g., Tears for Fears) and textural experiments with hundreds of synthesized “mallet” sounds.

7. Hauntology, Nostalgia, and Inversion

• [19:28] Deep dive into hauntology—the sense of being haunted not by the past but by possible futures.

• Evan ties this to Donald Fagen’s "Nightfly":
  “It’s like this song about his childhood dreams...from the point of view of a kid in the 50s being told that...you’ll have this utopian world to look forward to.” ([21:30])

• Quote:
  “In Marty Supreme... it’s not the past coming back and haunting the present. It’s like Marty Mouser is invoking the future, and we as an audience are haunted by the future that’s in the present of the 50s.” — Daniel Lopatin ([21:30])

8. The Necessary Dream and Melancholy

• [22:18–24:14] The hosts and Lopatin emphasize the film's emotional core:
  • Dreams aren’t about achieving exactly what’s wanted, but about fueling growth—
    “You need to dream so that you’ll find yourself somewhere, period... The dream is necessary to even give you the libido for life.” — Lopatin ([23:40])
  • The ending is described as unexpectedly optimistic, contrasting with the doom-laden conclusion of "Uncut Gems."

9. Texture, Childhood, and Musical Influence

• [28:07] Discussion of how 80s educational and commercial music, as well as the specific synthesizers (Juno-60, Yamaha DX), shaped both Lopatin’s childhood and the film’s sound.
• Lopatin shares personal anecdotes about growing up around music and his father’s keyboard, “Judy” ([32:05]).

10. Album Art, Abstraction, and Visual Language

• [35:27–39:10] Talk shifts to abstract and meaningful album art (e.g., “Tranquilizer”), the synergy between image and sound, and the importance of covering chaos with order and structure.
• The painting on the cover of "Tranquilizer" is revealed to be “a tractor tilling the soil,” symbolizing both chaos and creation.

11. Cosmology & Influence: Kubrick, Film, and World-building

• [42:10–48:11] Lopatin connects his “universe-building” to directors like Kubrick, Tarantino, Lynch:
  “I tended to think about art careers as these kind of...canonical sort of, okay, you’re going to take your shot at this trope or this idiom or this genre. But...the heart is coming from the director’s point of view...” ([42:33])
• Kubrick’s lavish detail and emotional layers, especially in "Eyes Wide Shut", are compared to Lopatin’s approach to electronic music—“be as generous with...every 4, 8 bar loop...as Kubrick is with a frame.” ([47:20])

12. World-building and Narrative in Lopatin’s Catalog

• “Garden of Delete” as a rock opera ([49:13]); elaborate rollouts and storytelling.
• Desire for each album to be its own universe, with interlinked throughlines.

13. Themes of Creation, Integrity, and the Artist’s Path

• [51:55–54:08] Film is seen as fundamentally about “creation” and negotiating compromise and integrity;
  • The narrative resonates as "the birth of a sport, the birth of a sense of self, and ultimately, the creation of something bigger than one character."

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the film’s score:
  “We briefly talked about sort of adhering to some sort of...mid-century score. And immediately just, just felt like it was cringy and boring...No, let’s actually kind of disrespect the timeline here.” — Daniel Lopatin ([13:59])
• On Marty’s dream of the future:
  “It’s not the past coming back and haunting the present. It’s like Marty Mouser is invoking the future and we as an audience are haunted by the future that’s in the present of the 50s.” — Daniel Lopatin ([21:30])
• On the role of dreams in life:
  “The dream is necessary to even give you the libido for life that gets you to where you may have not known you were going.” — Lopatin ([23:40])
• On artistic generosity:
  “Every inch of a Kubrick movie is gratuitously generous...If that’s not warmth, I don’t know what is. That always really influenced me with the OPN stuff—be as generous with...every 4, 8 bar loop...as Kubrick is with a frame.” — Daniel Lopatin ([47:20])
• On building musical universes:
  “I want them to feel like universes, like the excitement I felt when I was going to go see Kill Bill...What is the next chapter?” — Lopatin ([43:49])

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Highlighted Timestamps

• 00:38–02:00—Opening praise for "Marty Supreme"; Timothée Chalamet as Bob Dylan-esque lead.
• 07:10–09:24—The blimp, meeting anecdotes, and Chalamet’s meta-performance.
• 13:08–18:00—Discussion of the score's anachronism, synthesizer choices, poetic intent.
• 19:28–21:30—Hauntology and how Marty Supreme flips nostalgia into future-haunting.
• 22:18–24:14—Musings on dreams, disappointment, and life's direction; the emotional core of the film.
• 28:04–31:49—Synthesizer talk: Juno-60, Yamaha DX, 1980s sounds, and childhood memories.
• 35:27–39:10—Album artwork analysis (Tranquilizer cover and Abner Herzberger).
• 42:10–48:11—Influence of Kubrick and the desire to create musical/cinematic universes.
• 54:08–55:16—"Marty Supreme" as a film about creation, birth, and artistic integrity.

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Tone & Style

Conversational, deeply engaged, encyclopedic, humorous, and warmly self-deprecating (“music is like the cowardly artist’s film… you don’t have to work with anybody” — Lopatin [48:30]). The hosts are unabashed music and film nerds, while Lopatin embodies both the meticulous composer and the playful pop-culture philosopher. The dialogue is densely referential but remains approachable, circling big ideas with wit and depth.

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For New Listeners

This episode is a must for fans of film scores, cultural criticism, and synth music. It unpacks not only the construction of one of 2025’s most distinctive films, but also the secret histories behind Lopatin’s work, touching on everything from hauntology and Donald Fagen to Kubrick, Jet Set Radio, and the joys of making weird, beautiful music nobody expected to succeed.

Transcript

[Daniel Lopatin]

Foreign.

[Evan]

Welcome back to the Jokerman podcast. And this time it's a sort of a Jokerman at the Movies episode and a very special one at that because we are Talking with Daniel Lopatin, 100 tricks point never. The great artist behind the score for the great film, Marty Supreme.

[Co-host]

Martin Supreme.

[Evan]

Martin Supreme. I'm Evan.

[Co-host]

I mean, probably the movie of the year. The film of the year, you know, for me at least, having. Having just seen it with you a week or so ago.

[Evan]

Yeah, same kind of no contest. Like right out the gate I was just like, well, that's that. Yeah, that's the one.

[Co-host]

I mean, all plaudits, all salutes to Eddington and to one battle after another. But like this one really, you know, brings it all together. I think in a way that it feels like a Josh Safdie film, you know, unquestionably is, but sort of takes what you might love or, you know, at least remember and feel very strongly one way or another about Good Time or gems and just kind of does it all on the biggest possible canvas. Led by, of course, Mr. Bob Dylan himself, Timothee Chalamet. Just kind of a blow away performance. I feel like it's probably good that he didn't get the Oscar last year because I kind of think he's getting it this year.

[Evan]

I hope he does. I mean, it's spiritually in line with the complete unknown in some peculiar ways. He plays a young Jewish man in New York making a name for himself, breaking the rules and setting new standards in an art form.

[Co-host]

Going electric, you could say, going Auric cringe. Indeed. But yes, you know, great film. Made all the greater by Dan's incredible score, which fits right in with a lot of very 80s needle drops that occur throughout this film, but also kind of bounces against the period piece aspect of the film, which is set obviously the 1950s. We talk a little bit about that concept with him. He's got a brilliant explanation for how that all works. And like, it almost seems like he had like a frame of understanding of the film that isn't there in the text of the film at all. But like makes complete sense after you hear him explain it. I don't know, it all comes together perfectly.

[Evan]

Yeah, great conversation and we're very happy to share it. And thank you to A24 and A24 Music for helping this to come into being.

[Co-host]

Here's Dan. How many times have you seen it then?

[Daniel Lopatin]

I would say I've. I've seen it in the upwards of 12, 13, 14 times, maybe. Totally like just sitting there watching it all the way through.

[Evan]

Yeah. Just like act the finished film, like, all the way.

[Daniel Lopatin]

It's probably. We're probably a dozen times, maybe.

[Evan]

Yeah.

[Co-host]

How do you watch it that many times? Geez, I just. I feel like I would get anxiety attacks on a daily basis.

[Daniel Lopatin]

You just start picking up on all of these. Totally. You just get more into other departments. Like, you're like, oh, like the one I'll be watching through the lens of Miyako's costume work. And the next time I'll be like, jack, oh my God, Jack is a genius. You know, like all this kind of stuff.

[Evan]

There's so much going on in the movie that I couldn't. That's really why I want to see it again. Apart from it just being like one of the first times in forever where I felt like, oh, I'm watching a great film while sitting there. But it's just so dense with stuff and with people. I guess I knew that David Mamet is in it, but I didn't notice the first time around.

[Daniel Lopatin]

And Isaac Mizrahi.

[Evan]

Isaac Mizrahi is in it. Nomi Fry is in it.

[Daniel Lopatin]

Yeah. Yeah. She's so great.

[Co-host]

Star making turn from Nomi.

[Evan]

There two former Jokerman guests in the film, actually we've got Larry Ratzo, Sloman and Nomi Fry.

[Daniel Lopatin]

I didn't know Larry was on your show.

[Co-host]

Yeah, Larry's been on at least twice to talk. We did one where we just like kind of shot the shit with him and talked about, like, him running around with Bob back in the 70s. And then we did another one where. Have you ever listened to the John Cale record Artificial Intelligence?

[Daniel Lopatin]

No, I have it.

[Co-host]

You should check that one out. Kind of up your alley, to be honest. But it's co written, basically, like fully written by Ratso. Like he wrote all the lyrics and then John just kind of sang them back in like 1985.

[Daniel Lopatin]

I'm not ready. My mind and body is not ready for this information.

[Evan]

Yeah, that man who you see in that film is also was just like the guy that John Cale was like, can you just write the lyrics for this record of mine?

[Daniel Lopatin]

That's incredible choice. Were you guys shocked to see Ratso with all of his hair cut off?

[Evan]

He melted into the part.

[Co-host]

I didn't even notice that it was Ratzo until like we got to the credits and I was like, wait, where was Ratso? Cause I saw his name pop up and then when, like, he's the second name in the credits because I think it's like, in order of appearance, unrecognizable. Larry Ratzo, Slowman in this movie.

[Daniel Lopatin]

Are you guys Stern aficionados or grew up listening to Stern?

[Co-host]

I know my Stern. I typically focus on, like, the Norm MacDonald stern appearances, but I've dabbled here and there. Has Ratso come through with Howard?

[Daniel Lopatin]

I thought Ratzo was part of that milieu.

[Co-host]

Is he not part of the Stern world?

[Evan]

Yeah, I think he's part of every world. He's kind of able to be around people who everyone else is, like, vaporized by getting too close. Like, he's hanging out with Bob Dylan. He's just hanging out with John Cale. Just like, oh, yeah, that's Ratto. He's cool.

[Daniel Lopatin]

He wrote. He wrote Stern's books.

[Co-host]

He did. You're absolutely right. Fact check. Private Parts and Miss America. Ratso wrote. Wrote books with.

[Evan]

And the Red Hot Chili Pe or the Anthony Kiedis book. Scar Tissue.

[Co-host]

Sort of a Renaissance man. Larry Ratzo, Sloman.

[Daniel Lopatin]

I haven't met him yet, but I'm sort of. That's one of the. That's my bucket list on sort of, like, the upcoming Marty Press stuff. It's like, wait, I'm going to finally meet Ratzo.

[Co-host]

You got to grab him for five minutes. He's got some stories, man. He laid them on us when he came on the pod.

[Evan]

So this movie that you did, the score for Marty supreme, it has a blimp, and the blimp is just going around town. And, I mean, I don't want to be too effusive in my praise without getting into the music itself, but I feel like every part of this film and the music is a huge part in this. I think it earns the blimp, honestly.

[Daniel Lopatin]

Well, I'll give you some inside baseball and the blimp, from my perspective, you know, the first time I hear about the blimp is, like, in a meeting. It's like Josh and I are in an 824 meeting, marketing meeting, and they're kind of going over all of.

[Evan]

It's.

[Daniel Lopatin]

It's. It's out of an Al Brooks movie. They're just like, are you willing to go up in a blimp? And. And. And I'm like, absolutely not. Like, there's no. Who else is going. Who else is willing to.

[Co-host]

Oh, they want to put. They want to put you in the blimp.

[Daniel Lopatin]

They want to put all of us in the blimp. And. And it's just like, what is this? I can't associate any. Anything other than, like, that Led Zeppelin cover. Like, in my mind, I'm just like, no, wait, but are you going in the blimp? Is this. Are you really. Are we joking? Whatever. So the whole blimp thing was like a kind of. I. I thought it was like, basically a threat. And then I'm like, isn't it a little ostentatious? Like a blimp? Seriously, are we doing this? And then brilliantly. And I'm not surprised at all, because Timmy's a genius, but the sort of weird, like, Larry Sanders meta thing he does where he's, like, arrogantly kind of embracing that, like, yeah, of course it's the blimp. Like, of course it's this outsized, arrogant thing was so genius that I thought I had been fooled. I was like, were you guys hiding that from me the entire time that it was I. Part of, like, this crazy jokes? It's like some Kate Berlant thing. Like, and. And it's not. It's like he just came up with that as a reaction to the. The. The. The ostentatious aspect of. Of. Of the blimp. He. He saw that and was like. Came up with the idea to take on. To create this character for himself in a meeting with a 24. Wonderful to me is one of my favorite images I've ever seen in my. Like, I don't even know if Ellis island exists anymore, but you could have people arriving to New York, whether it's for tourism or out of dire need. And then you see the Statue of Liberty, and it represents everything. It's always represented. But if it's orange, now you're thinking Marty Supreme.

[Evan]

Yeah. So.

[Daniel Lopatin]

Yeah, this is just a couple things. My visual artist.

[Evan]

We're talking about painting the. The statue.

[Daniel Lopatin]

It could be painting. It could be.

[Evan]

You know, look at this one.

[Daniel Lopatin]

This is like, the trees are orange, right? The grass is orange. You know, the whole thing is orange. And it's a beautiful day.

[Co-host]

Yeah. I mean, we saw it with the. The Bob movie last year. There's. There's the movie and there's the part, you know, him on the screen playing the role. But then, like, it sort of seems like there's also this whole other, like, like, like metatextual, like, publicity, almost like performance art piece that he's able to kind of, without a doubt, you know, spin up alongside the movie. I don't know. He's killing it. Whatever it is that he's doing, he's killing it.

[Daniel Lopatin]

He's incredible.

[Evan]

He's like an athlete. I mean, the movie, I think, is so perfectly suited for him, more than any other part he's ever had because it acknowledges that he seems to genuinely treat his craft like an athlete does. Like an Olympic athlete, like the most kind of charismatic version of that. And you just sort of don't see that. Or maybe it feels unique in a way to him that he's like, figured out a way to just make it totally acceptable for himself.

[Daniel Lopatin]

Yes.

[Evan]

It doesn't matter that it's an artistic thing. That doesn't mean I, I have to like, be sheepish about being really invested and like, big about it.

[Daniel Lopatin]

No, it's like a completely bizarre return to a time of like, brazen enjoyment of one celebrity and one skill. And it's like I'm, I'm welcoming it because isn't everybody a little bit tired of how sort of anesthetized and sure and prescriptive everything is and, and like these stars that basically just show up and just, oh, little old me. You know, it's like no one buys it and it's boring. It's. And here he is. He's. He's not. What's, what's so refreshing about him is like, I don't really feel that it's necessarily kind of an arrogant position. It's actually like kind of this just genuine. I'm here to really, really try to be the best version of this, whatever I've that I can be. It's not about sort of sticking it in your face. It's just like, hey, I'm not gonna pretend that this isn't really, really important to me and that I don't want to be the, you know, the goat.

[Evan]

It's joyful. It feels like joyous. Yeah, it's joyful.

[Daniel Lopatin]

Yeah.

[Co-host]

Do you have one of the jackets, Dan?

[Daniel Lopatin]

No, no, no. I, I'm building up to it. I'm playing it really cool. I'm basically in line like everybody else. But. But the thing is, I've sort of broken through. You know, we're sending some, some memes to each other. I'm getting, I'm building up to it, but I'm not going to, you know, I'm not going to just capitulate to my, like merch, to the merch fever and just beg him and grovel. This jacket I'm going to.

[Co-host]

There's going to be a moment finds its way into your possession.

[Daniel Lopatin]

Going to be a moment. But, yeah, I know, I know I'm not, I'm not going to beg for it.

[Co-host]

I think they're doing a pop up down there. In L. A next week. Evan, you might need to head over there and see if you can score.

[Evan]

Baby, it's going to be a bloodbath.

[Co-host]

Yeah, it probably will. I got a couple I actual questions about the music and you know, the movie and how you guys like did this. We haven't even said anything yet, but like score for this film, fucking amazing as. As they all have been. But this one, I don't know, maybe, maybe more so than most. Marty supreme obviously takes place. It's a period picture, you know, period piece I guess, to some extent, you.

[Evan]

Know, takes place in the 1980s. Uh. Oh, never mind.

[Co-host]

Well, that's the question, you know, with like good time and with gems, the times and the worlds in which those films were. And then, you know, the type of music you made to correspond in them. Like those were just. That's hand in glove. That fits perfectly. And here there's sort of an idiosyncrasy and it's sort of anachronistic the way that the music kind of bounces off what's going on on the screen. Everyone's running around in these like big broad suits and driving big beautiful Cadillacs and stuff like that. And then we've got this gleaming, shining, synthesizer driven score behind it. Can you walk us through how you and Josh arrived at that?

[Daniel Lopatin]

It's not unlike what I would imagine a Donald Fagan music video would be like in the 80s.

[Evan]

Wow.

[Co-host]

It is a little night fly, isn't it?

[Daniel Lopatin]

Night fly. I think it's like I could break it down a few different ways. I've been talking about it a lot and so I hesitate to sort of regurgitate things that sound too, too obvious about it. But I, I do think I'm sort of getting to finally understand what happened here, which was like Josh and I, we briefly talked about sort of adhering to some sort of. What would a sort of mid century score be like? Or what, what would that be like? If we sort of adhered chronologically like really tightly to, to the period and immediately just, just felt like it was just like cringy and boring and, and it was just like, that's not us. That's so strange. Like, who are we trying to oppress here? Like, let's just be ourselves. And literally those conversations were just text messages for here and there. Like, hey, should we, should we at all respect the timeline here? It's like, no, let's actually like kind of disrespect. And immediately we were happy and everything was unlocked and we started talking poetically about what's really, really kind of happening essentially in, in the film. And that became this natural driver. I had known that there were some 80s needle drops that were kind of being considered and Tears for Fears was written into the first version of the screenplay. And I've read the. I've read Marty, I've read every version of this thing for years. So I knew that there was a kind of. Perhaps a version of the film that you could think of as a sort of a dream of a. Of a middle aged guy looking back at his life from maybe the perspective of like a guy with a couple kids in the 80s, thinking back in a way that wasn't necessarily the only interpretation or it's just kind of a. A fun interpretation that I used to. To think about certain things. But what really unlocked it for me was Josh's desire to involve some kind of classical music ideas in the score. Actually, that's what sort of created the opposite kind of reaction with the 80s stuff, because he just intuited that he wanted this. And we started talking about it and I started sort of getting into this metaphor of Marty Mauser as this young man who's creating kind of a version of himself that is yet to be a version of himself that's kind of a projection of himself that a dream in the future of who he wants to be that drives him through this present reality that he's dealing with. That's a world of limitations and traditions and sort of the weird kind of opulence of Fifth Avenue and rock, you know, Milton Rockwell's world and, and, and K. And and then the sort of like his uncle saying, you can't you stay in your lane, be a great shoe salesman? All of that stuff is like a kind of a feeling tone that I metaphorically connected with classical music in these different modalities of classical music. I should say neoclassical because I'm. I'm not classically trained. So everything I do should have a Quasi or a Neo in front of it. But that was the sort of maze or labyrinth that Marty is traversing. And the music of the 1980s is this sort of version of him that's yet to be. That's required there to be like a combustion engine to drive him through the maze. And when they kind of come together, that's the score.

[Evan]

There's something that we talk about. It just comes up naturally on our program, like from the very start of when we did this with Bob. And now it's just like every subject has a version of the relationship of the 80s to the 50s. Like, we are always seeming to talk about how in the 80s, there was this resurgence of deep nostalgia for the 1950s. And I guess this is the first time. It feels like the first time that that's being inverted in a way that is actually really intentional and makes that connection expl. Like, not explicit, but the way that you talk about him, the character, it does feel like the score poetically engages that. That idea of, like, he's not yet who he wants to be, but has the idea, like, that he is ahead of his time and that the score is kind of like. It becomes very intimately linked with him in a way, like, because it's so at odds with the surroundings, but it also makes those surroundings, which are kind of, like, dusty and just, like, have all this detritus of, like, kind of decaying early 20th century. You can really start to empathize with the character about, like. I just want to, like, obliterate all of this. Like, it's all in my way.

[Daniel Lopatin]

That's it. I mean, I. I really relate to that. Like, I don't know if we want to get into this. This term, hauntology or whatever, but let's do it. It's, you know, it's like the idea that, like, the classic definition of ontology is, like, sort of kind of nostalgic. It's like the presentation of the past as. At least from a. Like, a British point of view, which is where the term sort of came from, is like, that the future that was presented to young British people in the 1980s when they were, like, watching BBC and there was, like, all kinds of creepy little shows and synthesizer sounds, and all this kind of stuff was somehow a frontier that was imaginative and beautiful, and that is over. And now, as the boards of Canada, as the adults in the 1990s are, are, like, haunted by their memories of it, and that somehow the past has returned to disrupt the present in this really cool, fun kind of way. Like, that's Hauntology. And that inspired a lot of musicians that I was the sort of milieu that I was kind of involved in, you know, a whole generation later. But it was like the American version of Hauntology is a little different. It. It's more fun, and it, in a way, kind of more, like, playful about what we have in America is like commercials and detritus. I think for a lot of musicians, like, you know, like James Ferraro, Errol Pink, all. I think we were all kind of enjoying the. The pablum or the long tail of culture and having fun with it. So we kind of other kind of thing with hauntology. But to your point, I think what's interesting about the inversion in Marty supreme is like it's not the past coming back and haunting the present. It's like Marty Mouser is invoking the future and we as an audience are haunted by the future. That's in the present of the 50s.

[Evan]

Yes. It's almost like that thing in the night fly. Like in the song New Frontier on the Night Fly by Donald Fagan. It's like it's this song about his childhood dreams of how things would be pretty soon. You know, from the point of view of a kid in the 50s being told that like you're going to have this utopian world to look forward to. Very, you know, in the next decade or decades by like, by 76, we'll be a. Okay is one of the lyrics. And it, the. The song itself is like really kind of beautiful and wistful, but it has this really deep sorrow because it's the work of a man who knows that that didn't happen, didn't work out.

[Daniel Lopatin]

Yes.

[Evan]

Talking to his childhood self or talking through that about like this would never come to pass. But this movie, Marty supreme takes place in a time where one of the biggest aspects of the movie that feels like you're on the edge of your seat, you know, like the suspense of it is like, does this happen? Does he get to break through this? And like, does he succeed? It's kind of suspended in the air, like while you're watching the movie. That sadness, like his dream is going to be crushed is not for sure. That's not an inevitability.

[Daniel Lopatin]

Exactly. Exactly. One of my favorite cues in the film. I don't know, I don't even know how to talk about it because it seems like kind of spoilery. But there's, let's just say put it this way, there's a kind of like a melancholy, an uplifting melancholy to this final piece of music, or cue that, that's in the film that deals with this sort of idea. For me, that it's not so much about the cliche of you can do anything, just dream it and it'll happen. And this sort of 80s era self esteem propaganda that sort of screws a lot of people up because it gives them this kind of false confidence. It's like you need to dream so that you'll find yourself somewhere, period. You'll find yourself somewhere that probably won't be where you want to be, but it's where you you should be. It's like some stone stuff. You can't always get what you want, but you'll get what you need. The dream is necessary to even give you the sort of, like, libido for life that gets you to where you may have not sort of known you were going.

[Co-host]

Totally.

[Daniel Lopatin]

There's a sadness and an exhaustion because you've spent all this time dreaming this thing. But guess what? It was. It was worth it.

[Evan]

Worth it in a totally different way. I mean, yeah, not to spoil the ending, but it's. It's a revelation of an ending in a way that is not expected, I think, for. For the character especially.

[Daniel Lopatin]

Yeah, yeah.

[Co-host]

I think there's a. There's like a. Like, an optimism to this film. But, like, you know, it is paced. It feels like a Josh Safdie film. Like, I'll say that right away. Like, it is paced. Like good time, like gems, maybe even more so than those films at his pace. Like that. And so you kind of, you know, you fall into this sense of like, oh, boy, let's see how this one works out very quickly. But I think the. I don't know, the way that all the threads are knit together in this by the end, left me, at least with a very different kind of emotional reaction walking out of the theater than I felt. I remember we saw Uncut Gems together, too, Evan, before the podcast even started.

[Evan]

Yeah.

[Co-host]

And just like the. The bleak sense of doom that I felt at the end of that movie, that was not really, you know, one of the chief feelings I had emerging from the theater on this. And I think the score, I don't know, to me, kind of reflects that.

[Daniel Lopatin]

Yeah, it's so funny. I mean, we could talk about this stuff forever, but what was an amazing kind of kismet moment where everything locked in was like. I was at one of the early spotting sessions, like, maybe the second or third time I'd watched the movie, and I. So I was already kind of understood the plot pretty well, and I was getting to sort of like the. The heart of the film, sort of from a story point of view. But. So it's time to do this thing that I like to do, which is close my eyes and listen to the movie and see where I'm gonna kind of slot in where there's room. But also, sometimes that. That's a really trippy kind of thing to do for me because I. It often kind of reveals some sort of weird essence about the movie to me because especially. Especially with. With Josh and Ronnie's work and. And Their sound editing because they're really, really making these very, very concrete, bold and. And you know, up to 11 kind of choices with the sound mix. Even in the sort of, you know, before it's been locked. So I. I'll close my eyes and listen to their weird choices. And like, I was like, wow, now I'm finally locked into the game of table tennis. And it occurred to me in almost like a vision. It was just incredible. I was just like, wait a second. The paddle is like basically a wooden stick and it's like the balls at the end of it. This is a mallet. Like we have to do vibraphone stuff. And so I started thinking about like those 80s King Crimson records, but also Steve Reich and all kinds of stuff started occurring to me. But where it really got interesting was I was like, wait a second. Like all those digital synthesizers from the 80s, not unlike the ones you would hear on Night Fly, are like digital bells tines, you know, mallet. Digital mallet emulations. And they're perfect because they're quick and the transients are so sharp and you can get tons of rhythm out of melody that way. And that was because I'm not a drummer. And I was just like, wait a sec. This is incredible. It's like they're so buoyant, they're so quick and Marty Mouser, so mercurial and young and quick. And the game is so light and fast and tying everything to not just sort of mallet based music, but like particularly that flavor of like fake ersatz mallets from the 80s.

[Evan]

Yes.

[Daniel Lopatin]

So present in the needle drops are like, oh, we got it.

[Evan]

You know, that specific kind of texture that's kind of. I don't know exactly what the reference point I'm trying to make is. You know, like semi like educational programming. Like the kind of like scholastic utopian style stuff where it's like a spinning globe and like, you know, floating like fossils.

[Co-host]

Legends of the Hidden Temple.

[Daniel Lopatin]

Certainly.

[Evan]

Something is happening. Like this is the pursuit of knowledge.

[Daniel Lopatin]

Reading rainbow. Yeah.

[Evan]

Whatever. That like that kind of milieu is of like this, this music that for whatever reason, especially in like the late 80s and early 90s was used to signify like semi educational.

[Daniel Lopatin]

Yeah, I just was so sort of like, like raised by music like that. Even as kind of from like a latchkey kid perspective. Like my parents weren't around. My sister is nine years older and she's basically like like my proxy, like de facto mother. And she's just watching MTV and VH1 all day. So she's like just a kid herself and, and you know, like a latchkey teenager. And so I'm just like peering over her shoulder like Don Henley videos and stuff like that. And it affected me, you know, it really did. And what was really fun is like I grew up like I had a, a keyboard in the house because my dad was in these bands, like these sort of Russian restaurant bands to make some extra scratch basically on the side. I should send you guys a picture of his band because they had actually a uniform of like checkered sweatshirts and stuff like that.

[Evan]

Wow.

[Daniel Lopatin]

He added Roland Juno 60, which is like not really what we're just describing right now. Like there were basically two, two top of the line, the sort of prosumer level choices if you were a musician in the 80s, was either you get the Roland Juno 60, which is the analog synth, digitally controlled, but sounds nice and warm and kind of more in the vein of a refined kind of 80s version of the 70s. And then the Yamaha line, the Yamaha Fleet, which is the, you know, the DX model. And that was really a more breakthrough. That's like what you, that's the sound of, of the 80s, really. That's Sade. That's, you know, that you just know when you hear it.

[Co-host]

Yamaha DX100 synthesizer. Anything's possible. Donald Fagan was a Yamaha man.

[Daniel Lopatin]

Definitely, definitely, definitely. And we did, we didn't have the Yamaha was always, that sound was always a kind of a weird fixation of mine because I didn't, I didn't have it. So getting to sort of go really, really deep into it this time was really fun for me. I like dug up something like between. It wasn't just Yamaha, but it was, it was things of that nature. I dug up like 3 or 400 mallet sounds to show Josh, who begrudgingly sat through every single one, like with like narcissism of small differences. Like wait, these are basically all kind of like. Yeah, the thing you hear in a Depeche Mode song and listening to 80s music again and identifying things that I sort of had missed. I had a lot of fun discovering those textures on a kind of a fine tuned level.

[Co-host]

It's funny you mentioned the Juno 60. I was talking to a buddy of mine last night at a party and I mentioned, you know, that we were going to be talking today and he, you know, he's a big head and he wanted me to make sure to ask you what the status of Judy is. Oh, I, I, here I am asking that question on the interview.

[Daniel Lopatin]

Of course. Judy's alive and well. Although I'm so. I'm so nostalgic. So. So for those of people that don't. I guess I could explain, but the. I named my. That keyboard that my dad had. He sort of. I. I fucked with it for so many years that essentially it became mine. So he was just like, okay, it's just. It's now your thing. I'm not playing with it. And you've totally, like, deleted all of my accordion sounds and replaced it with, you know, cosmic laser beam sounds and whatever. So just go and take it. Go. Take. Take it to college and do what you will with it. So I learned everything I've ever known about. About subtractive synthesis from that instrument and just generally just playing, you know, and. And recording it. It's on my earliest recordings and I've had it for a very long time. Many bands, whatever. So it's kind of like my Lucille or something. It's like. Sure, right. That B.B. king's guitar. Yeah, yeah. So it's like my thing. But yeah, I bought another one just so I wouldn't play play it anymore because I was so scared of it. Kind of because it's temperamental, it's really old and it's doing well, but it's in storage.

[Co-host]

Sure.

[Daniel Lopatin]

That. The short. Long and short of it.

[Co-host]

I'm glad she's alive and well there.

[Daniel Lopatin]

Yeah, she's doing.

[Co-host]

Is that on, like, the early, like, Games stuff?

[Daniel Lopatin]

Yeah, it's on everything. There's really nothing. It's not on.

[Evan]

Sure.

[Co-host]

Yeah. I just. I remember finding, like. I think that first, like, games EP from Gorilla vs Bear or something back in 2010 and like that.

[Daniel Lopatin]

Oh, yeah.

[Co-host]

Blew my mind way. You know the one with all the flags on the COVID The flags on the COVID exactly. Yeah.

[Daniel Lopatin]

I love that Laurel Halo sings on a tune on that.

[Co-host]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

[Daniel Lopatin]

And then I love that one, the.

[Co-host]

Ford and Lopatin LP that came out. And I remember the COVID art of that just like. That was so, like. That was like. Just like the inside of my brain, like, put onto the COVID of a record. The way that that, like, mondo huge, just like, hi Fi TV setup looked in that, like, dark suburban bedroom. I just, you know, I love that shit.

[Daniel Lopatin]

So the BTS on that cover was that. That was shot at the Mexican Summer offices in the studio on Guernsey in Greenpoint and Thunder Horse, the guys that did that album art, they. They. I don't know how they sourced that huge, you know, 1992 television, but they did and they brought it into that studio and put it up against the glass wall partition between the control room and the live room. And we may turn the live room into a bedroom.

[Co-host]

Whoa.

[Daniel Lopatin]

And shot it there. Yeah.

[Co-host]

Damn that, you know.

[Daniel Lopatin]

Yeah.

[Co-host]

You had. You had me fooled on that. I thought that was just someone's like, you know, suburban.

[Daniel Lopatin]

That's why it looks. And that's why it looks so kind of trippy. It's because the live room is so huge, but. And the TV is so big, but his body is so normal sized, and it's like everything sort of has this weird. He's kind of dwarfed by the television, which is the. The thing we were going through.

[Co-host]

That is how I felt about, you know, consumer electronics when I was like 14 years old or something. So. Credit salute for.

[Daniel Lopatin]

And.

[Evan]

Seems like a lot of your album artwork is dependent on kind of like a texture. I mean, the most recent one is quite abstract, and I feel like that's been something that comes up pretty often on the 100 tricks point. Never records is kind of like different types of abstraction, for sure.

[Daniel Lopatin]

I mean, I. I really dig the COVID of Tranquilizer. It's like I stumbled upon. Basically, I was just, like, messing around looking for artwork that I'd like to have, and. And I stumble upon this basically, like, no, nobody knows Abner Herzberger, which I. Which I hope it will change now on some little level. But he's an abstract painter and a Mennonite, so he grew up on a farm in the Midwest, I think. I think it's in Indiana. I might be wrong, but he paints from his memories of growing up on a farm. So if you look at that cover, the COVID of Tranquilizer, what Abner is trying to show you there is basically a tractor, and it's tilling the soil. So you have the green blades of grass that are chaotically. Do you see it now?

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Evan]

This is the absolute last thing I would have guessed.

[Co-host]

That's wild.

[Daniel Lopatin]

So for, you know, it's a lot of different things, but one of them is kind of like, oh, that's funny. Like, Tranquilizer on a lot of levels is like my Touch Grass record. Like, I mean, it kind of is. It's. It's not so much about being tranquilized. It's sort of about this getting pushed and pulled by. By the times we're in and. And trying to drum up some ability to wake up and to, like, yeah, touch grass. Like, be a human being. Like, wake up. Like, don't get put to sleep. But that's also an aspect of our time. So the album to me is a kind of like the contrast between the structure and the chaos. Asleep and the awake and all these things. And I thought that the Abner painting perfectly captured it. But the other thing I really liked was it looks like giant piano keys that I loved, but it's also. It's like, yeah, this is what I do on the record. I basically am like, chopping up and organizing chaos. Like the soil there is. Is like the. The earthiness of music and time. And then here comes like the, you know, the thresher. The thresher, the sampler. The. You're chopping and cutting these things now.

[Evan]

I see the grasp that is perfect thematically and visually as a cover. When I looked at it, I thought maybe this was like a collage of some kind of street art from the 80s. I thought it was spray paint on a wall and then maybe just part of an advertisement for. Yeah, I don't know, razors or.

[Daniel Lopatin]

Yes, exactly. It looks like somebody took like Frank Stella's Irregular Polygons and. And shifted the. The angle to like a kind of isometric view and made it like an advertisement for like something in the 80s. It's. It's really, really a beautiful piece.

[Evan]

Yeah, it's crazy.

[Co-host]

It's insane that it's a tractor. I. I had like a weird, like, Jet Set Radio future, like, Dreamcast type like association. I mean, obviously that was 100% off base.

[Daniel Lopatin]

Well, it's like Dream as Jet Set huntologically like going back and haunting the 80s. Yeah. It's like this could be like Elvis Costello having a dream about Jet Set Radio.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Evan]

I didn't know that you were going to do the Jet Set Radio poll.

[Co-host]

Come on. That's like, iconic.

[Evan]

I didn't know that you knew from Jet Set.

[Co-host]

No question.

[Evan]

One thing about the music, though, and the way that this record is and your records more broadly, but I think this one specifically, there's so much about texture and mood, but like specifically kind of different textures having a mood and like textures having character. I feel like there's not that much that gets the attention that your work gets that is, I think, as interested in this kind of really granular and specific and poetic kind of thinking. I don't really know if I have a. Anything more to lodge about that other than that comes across.

[Daniel Lopatin]

Thank you. That's really beautiful. It's. It's nice to hear that that comes across. That's. That means a lot. I mean, I've been doing this for. For a long time. And I didn't think anybody really cared to begin with. So it was basically like, hey, I'll communicate something, and let's see if it speaks to anybody. But one of the. The gratifying things about doing anything for a long time is you realize, like, wow, actually there's some continuity here. I have a kind of a style emerges, a point or something I'm circling and something I'm refining and. And. And that's. In and of itself, that's the best. That's a great feeling. But on top of that, to hear, you know, that other people sort of more or less resonate with something or pick up on. I mean, it's. It's a really particular kind of thing I'm doing. And I never had any intentions and aspirations on it being very coherent to people. I just want. Was kind of like doing this thing that I kind of believed in. And the fact that as time passes and as I kind of do it, kind of return to it and do it in these different ways that it becomes clear what. What the. What the message is is really, really gratifying, honestly.

[Co-host]

Yeah, so, yeah, it's not. I mean, it's certainly not the type of thing that you would say. Like, you know, there's a. There's commercial success in this style of music making and. And yet some, like, against all odds.

[Evan]

There'S an appetite for it.

[Co-host]

There's exactly.

[Evan]

For things that go into the. Those kind of more nuanced places.

[Co-host]

Every record, to me, feels so fully realized, like it's its own little, like, universe. And then you move on to the next one, like R7 versus Garden of Delete or something. And then again to this tranquilizer. Like, there's a through line there, but they're so fully fleshed out and often very different from what came before. It's just pretty tight the way you're able to kind of build a cosmology out of so many different distinct pieces over time.

[Daniel Lopatin]

Well, thank you. I think a lot of that comes from my teenage obsession with, like, you know, Tarantino and Kubrick and lynch and pta. And I didn't. I was more of a tape head and a movie fan and a wannabe screenwriter and director than I was a musician for most of my youth. And so I tended to think about art careers as these kind of like, canonical sort of, okay, you're gonna take your shot at this trope or this idiom or this genre or. But there's going to be. The essence or the heart is coming from the director's Point of view and some kind of. Some kind of obsession or fascination that is happening that gets shot through genre. And you know, I think a lot of the music that you guys talk about on, on the pod actually, it's fascinating to think about the careers of like say, you know, the Beach Boys that way too, and especially Bob, because there's things he was kind of reluctant, I guess, to absorb culturally, which made him so amazing that he was just kind of like stuck to his guns. But then there's this completely non linear thing where he does. Where he's just like. I don't know, I'm not, I'm just. I'm just in the present and whatever comes my way is kind of going to. You're going to feel that. I think my albums, I want them to feel like universes and I want them to feel like the excitement I felt when, you know, I was going to go see Kill Bill in the movie theaters. And it's. What is the next chapter of, you know, I really, I love those experiences and I just wanted to give that to people that were interested in my music.

[Co-host]

I think Kubrick is a great counterpoint that had never really struck me, but I think that makes perfect sense because like, he did, you know, work in distinct genres. He's got the war movie, he's got the sci fi movie, he's got the horror movie. But just calling it like calling the Shining a horror movie, calling 2001 just the sci fi movie, like they just so happen to exist within separate little genre compartments. But those are Kubrick movies first and foremost.

[Evan]

He's got the Christmas movie.

[Co-host]

He's got the Christmas movie. That's right. Maybe the best. Maybe the best one of them all.

[Daniel Lopatin]

Which is also a rom com.

[Co-host]

That's right.

[Evan]

I just rewatched it. It's. That movie is just.

[Daniel Lopatin]

It's phenomenal.

[Co-host]

Gets better every passing year.

[Evan]

It gets better and more troubling every. I mean, as I get older, I feel like that movie, I feel like the culturally people are just beginning to even start. Like there was an entire existence this movie had before anyone knew about Jeffrey Epstein. And now you just watch it again, you're like, oh.

[Daniel Lopatin]

Oh, it's incredible. And it's incredible that he ends his run on a film that's essentially about a relationship. At the heart of it too, after making these really, these grand epics. And, you know, there's just something so human about Eyes Wide Shut that was kind of refreshing. Like, it was almost like Kubrick in a Woody Allen mode.

[Evan]

Like, if you could like a serious. Like a Woody drama.

[Co-host]

There's a warmth to it, you know, because he's, like, for so long, accused of being, like a cold, you know, kind of exacting, you know, mechanical filmmaker. And you hear, you know, people talk about him making them do 100 takes on set and just, like, driving them to the point of insanity, which makes sense, but there is this. It's weird to say, but warm kind of beating heart, Eyes Wide Shut, that isn't necessarily present there in throbbing.

[Evan]

A throbbing heart.

[Daniel Lopatin]

And I'll say one more thing about Kruger, because I don't often get to talk about him, but he's one of my favorites. And I always felt that the warmth of his films that are seemingly cold are actually. You can access it in. In. In the image, in the set design, in the framing, in the detail. Every inch of a Kubrick movie is gratuitously generous. It's like every single shot is a fucking painting. And if you don't think that's warm, he's. He's giving you so much to revisit and to discover over and over. Like, you're saying, like, now, Eyes Wide Shut is this thing that's changing through your life, through time or 2000. One certainly was like that for me. I saw it as a kid, and it was just pure abstractions. Kind of scared me. And then later, it's what. What makes this thing tick? What is. What is this guy trying to say about the universe here? And then, you know, you grow up a little bit and you're like, oh, this is about, like, being far away from your family or something. It's a mirror. It's a mirror to whatever. And if that's not warmth, I. I don't know what is. And that always really influenced me with the OPN stuff because I. I always thought to myself, like, be as generous with. With every. You. 4, 8 bar loop or something like that as Kubrick is with a frame. Like, leave stuff in here to be discovered later on. Headphones take time to sort of. The sound on sound. Stuff that I do on those records is, like, really, really detailed. And I think a lot of that comes from just enjoying aspect of Stanley Kubrick's presentation from an image point of view.

[Co-host]

I'm looking forward to the opn. Barry Lyndon, whatever that's going to be.

[Daniel Lopatin]

That was age of.

[Evan]

And no actors are harmed in the making of your records either. Yeah. Thank God you don't have to actually upset the music by making it go back and do it again and again and again.

[Daniel Lopatin]

Well, yeah, music is like the cowardly artist's film. You don't have to work with anybody. Cowardice film, you know, you can basically just kind of work by yourself and create these vast universes on a very small budget.

[Evan]

Well, it seems like you've kind of gotten yourself to be less cowardly one way or another. Like you're sort of forced out of height. No, it's, it's. I think that it's a natural transition. It's obvious why you were tapped to do these scores. And was it on Garden of Delete that there was like a more, more emphasis on a kind of narrative structure?

[Daniel Lopatin]

Yes, I think so. I mean for a while I was just really like, just geeked out on like world building and having sort of light hearted but extremely deep to kind of concepts behind the records that were not really like fully fleshed out, but purposely kind of like, let's just bury a lot of, a lot of clues in here and make a website and make a world and make characters and do all that kind of stuff. Like I don't think Garden of Delete can fully be removed from the context of the insane rollout that we did. And it really, that was, it like broke my brain. Brain. That thing we're just like to, to make that whole thing happen the way that, the way that we did. Meeting Andrew Strasser, John Rafman. I'm going to start forgetting people. There was a lot of the. Sean Trujillo, like one of my best friends in the world who, who worked a lot on the, the Chaos Edge website and the characters and the sort of parallel universe band and all this stuff that we did there. I think Garden of the Elite should be like a rock opera of some kind. I think it should be like my Tommy. Like if anyone out there wants to really fuck their life up on Broadway and give me a lot of money to do Garden of Delete as a rock opera. It would, it would work very well.

[Co-host]

Evan and I would be right there in the front row opening night.

[Daniel Lopatin]

I'd watch that.

[Evan]

Well, speaking of front row, we, we watched Marty supreme in the front row because this screening we were at was packed and we were told like, yeah, it'd be probably a 10 seat theater or something. And it just wasn't. And they were almost turning people away.

[Co-host]

I think it was a 24, had 10 seats. And then it turned out that it was like a 100 seat theater or something.

[Evan]

Miscommunication.

[Co-host]

I kind of liked sitting right up there against the front legitimately.

[Evan]

Yeah, it felt right.

[Daniel Lopatin]

It's so cool that it's this sort of, like, combustion engine of a movie. It's like, the only movie I can really compare it to because I think it is different in pacing than. Than gems and good time. It's. It's like you said earlier in the conversation, it's almost. It's almost like even more. More sort of has this motor to it. It's hard to say. It's like. It reminds me of, like, that new Top Gun that came out a couple years ago. And one climax to another, it has a very interesting rhythm and plot structure that doesn't feel necessarily like it's adhering to how movies are sort of meant to sort of feel. It's like. Feels a little bit more like flipping through a comic book to me. And I love that about it.

[Co-host]

I totally see that. Everything kind of, like. Like, stacks and kind of builds over time. To me, it's a movie about, like, leverage, you know, like. You know, like, the further you. You go, like, the further you have to go in order to, like, kind of make up for already having gone that far in. You know, there's the concept of sunk cost fallacy or whatever. This is like, maybe the movie about sunk cost fallacy and when to cut your losses and when not to cut your losses. But, yeah, I mean, the. Just there's a point in this movie and I forget exactly when it was, but where I realized, like, oh, everything that's happened so far that's gonna come back again, and it's gonna pay off in the most spectacular, unexpected manner possible.

[Daniel Lopatin]

I like that about the. The cost fallacy. Sometimes I'm watching the film and I think about it in a completely different but related way, which is like, is this actually Josh kind of and Ronnie on some level, writing a story about an artist who has a lot of integrity and doesn't really want to sell out? But then there's moments where you make compromises because it's. You're just trying to. The ultimate goal is your integrity and what's really you. What, you know, to be true about yourself is where you're going, but on the way there, you have to kind of. You have to negotiate and you have to compromise.

[Co-host]

Absolutely.

[Daniel Lopatin]

And to me, it's a film also.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Daniel Lopatin]

About sort of being an artist.

[Evan]

I came away thinking about the movie. I thought, like, is this really, really simple. Is this movie very simple in a certain way? And without saying anything about the specifics, the way the movie starts and ends made me think, like, yeah, this is about something so fundamental it is about creation. The way that it ends, it's like I was really moved by that, but because of the way that it. It's not actually a movie about this character. In a way, it's about life. Without sounding too trite, it's bigger than even this huge character.

[Daniel Lopatin]

Yes. That's the sort of trippy, kind of spiritual aspect to all of all of Josh's films. I, I think that especially. I think me and Josh get to tap into with the music. That kind of solidifies that. But, yeah, the first time I read the script, I was on a flight. I think it was back from Europe on. On a tour. And I got. I bought the Wi Fi, believe it or not. I spent the 14 bucks and. And I was texting with. With Josh Ronnie, as I'm reading the thing, and I, I, I, I just hit it, hit upon the fact that the film was about birth and all of these different aspects or manifestations of birth. It's literal birth. It's birth of a sport. It's the birth of a person's sense of themselves, like a young man sort of becoming more or less figuring out what he stands for. So it's about sort of all these different versions of birth are happening. That really helped and anchored me a lot. I really agree with you guys.

[Co-host]

I love looking at just, like, the sound. I've been listening to the soundtrack, which will be out on Christmas, along with the movie. I love looking at the soundtrack and seeing some of the titles of these things that if you're just looking at them on their own, something like Tub Falls or Holocaust Honey isn't gonna mean a whole lot to you. But thinking about what those titles mean after you've seen the movie, it's just like fucking. It's so.

[Daniel Lopatin]

Yeah, no, yeah. We have a lot of fun with that. But, yeah, that's just me and Josh, like, kind of making the stuff as exciting for people who flip the record over and look at that stuff as possible.

[Co-host]

Tub Falls, man, that was the moment. It just goes through the looking glass up there. I just like.

[Daniel Lopatin]

I know.

[Co-host]

God, Ferrara.

[Evan]

Yeah.

[Co-host]

Well, I think this was. This was great. So stoked to finally get you on then. This was a pleasure and a privilege for both of us.

[Evan]

Yeah. Thank you so much.

[Daniel Lopatin]

Likewise.

[Co-host]

Come on back anytime you want.

[Daniel Lopatin]

Yeah. Sometime we'll talk about what was our idea for.

[Evan]

We were going to talk about the Martin Rev solo album.

[Daniel Lopatin]

Yeah.

[Evan]

See Me riding the other Martin Supreme, I think.

[Daniel Lopatin]

Yeah. See Me Writing is actually. It's actually like really kind of Marty supreme.

[Evan]

It is. It's. It's Marty. Supreme Court.

[Daniel Lopatin]

Whoa. Crazy. I love that record.

[Evan]

Yeah, me too.

[Co-host]

Wrap it there. Thanks again, Dan. This was great.

[Daniel Lopatin]

Thank you, guys.

[Evan]

Peace. See you.

[Daniel Lopatin]

Bye, Sam.