Jokermen Podcast: In Conversation with John Darnielle (Mountain Goats)

Date: November 5, 2025
Episode Overview

This episode of Jokermen features an in-depth conversation between host Ian and John Darnielle—the songwriter/author behind the Mountain Goats. Together, they dive into the creation of the new Mountain Goats album “Through This Fire Across From Peter Balcon,” a dense, narrative-driven record inspired by a dream, along with discussions about Darnielle’s upcoming annotated lyric book "365", the 20th-anniversary reissue of The Sunset Tree, and deep-cut Bob Dylan talk. The discussion is lively, humorous, and often philosophical, offering a candid look into Darnielle’s creative process and thoughts on art, memory, collaboration, and the persistent evolution of songwriting.

Main Themes and Episode Structure

• Genesis and Conceptualization of the New Record ([03:31]–[16:48])
• The Art of Songwriting, Melodic Growth, and Inspirations ([09:43]–[13:20])
• Writing Process, World-Building, and Collaboration ([15:42]–[24:25])
• Annotated Lyrics Book “365” and Darnielle’s Literary Philosophy ([25:51]–[34:47])
• Autobiography, Memory, and the “Sunset Tree” Anniversary ([34:25]–[41:43])
• Live Shows, Set Lists, and the Bob Dylan Approach ([41:43]–[48:18])
• Song Structures, The Function of the Bridge, and More Dylan ([48:18]–[53:01])
• Musical Theatre, Control, and Further Artistic Musings ([53:01]–[54:21])
• Rapid-Fire Bob Dylan Album Opinions ([54:21]–[58:56])
• The “Lady from Shanghai 2” and Arrangements Live ([60:14]–[62:33])

Key Discussion Points and Insights

Genesis and Vision Behind the New Album

• The Album’s Origin in a Dream

  • Darnielle details how the album title “Through This Fire Across From Peter Balcon” came to him in a dream, with no context, which spurred him to write an entire concept album retroactively to justify and explain the title.
  • “I actually wrote a whole record to explain the title... When I woke up, I grabbed my phone, I used an app called Bear for note taking and I wrote down the title... oh, it’d be funny if you actually made that the next record.” — John Darnielle [04:34]

• Improvisational, World-Building Approach

  • He likens album construction to improv comedy and Dungeons & Dragons, focusing on practical questions ("How did they get there?") that spark the story’s world and logic.
  • “When I write a novel, I have a character. My first question to myself... is like trying to explain how this person with a damaged face makes their living... Same with songs: I need to work toward that... like, why is this person being named?” — JD [06:03]

• Plot of the Record

  • A shipwreck tale: 16 men, led by Captain Peter Balcon, wreck; only a few survive on a sandbar; Balcon has messianic visions and dies; the survivors dwindle. A “positive feeling, kind of.”
  • “Peter Balcon the Captain begins to have apocalyptic visions with himself as a sort of savior figure. But he’s actually just dying...” — JD [07:50]

Songwriting, Catchiness & Melodic Evolution

• Marrying Hooks with Story

  • Darnielle explains how he balances catchy pop sensibility with dense, narrative-driven lyrics.
  • “I think I’m getting better at melodies... I’m always learning as I go... The way I write is usually just to sing whatever first comes to mind as I’m playing and then however it comes out, is how I keep it.” — JD [09:43]

• Musical Influences and Growth

  • Nude Broadway influence (Sondheim, Schwartz), always stretching his skills.
  • “I listen to a lot of music and I’m very restless in my listening... The goal is to get as far with it as you can before the last day of your life.” — JD [11:07]

The Album’s Structure & Collaborators

• Story Mapping & Sequencing

  • Darnielle wrote much of the album in sequence ("Fishing Boat" was first), initially aiming to write the whole story linearly, using comic book backer boards for notes.
  • “For the longest time I was planning on writing the entire album in sequence... as a fun, you know, why not?” — JD [18:04]

• Studio Collaborators & Guests

  • Notable appearances: Lin-Manuel Miranda (pen pal and demo confidant), Tommy Stinson (Replacements), Orlando Whopper (nickname by Miranda for a demo), plus tour and session musicians.
  • “Lin-Manuel and I... have been running demos past him... since 2015, I guess, or earlier... You miss 100% of the shots you don’t take.” — JD [20:48]

The Lyrics Book “365”

• Ambitious Scope and Annotation

  • The book presents 365 lyrics with personal, poetic, or interpretive annotations—a kind of “memoir in disguise.”
  • “...not just lyrics... 365 lyrics, each with an annotation. I worked very, very, very hard on it. I don’t want to sell you a book unless it’s a good book...” — JD [25:51]
  • Example annotation (for “Linda Blair was Born Innocent”) reveals the book’s creative and memory-driven style.
    “I love Tate because she only turns up as an aside delivered by a speaker who assumes you already have an opinion about her...” — JD [30:30]

• Avoidance of Memoir for Personal/Art Reasons

  • “I would like to be as absent from that story as I can feasibly be without taking my energy away from it... I just don’t want to be the Subject.” — JD [32:34]

Memory, Autobiography, and Revisiting “The Sunset Tree”

• Autobiographical Tensions

  • The Sunset Tree, his most personal album, is being reissued for its 20th anniversary, which Darnielle describes as a deliberate break from his usual preference for fictional or distanced songwriting.
  • “There’s an irony in the fact that I’m always trying not to be too autobiographical. And the biggest record... is the one where I said, well, right now I have to talk about myself just this once.” — JD [34:39]

• On Looking Back

  • Admits to a growing openness to retrospection, challenging his own hostility to nostalgia, but maintains a restless, future-oriented focus.
  • “...there’s always amazing amounts of great new music and you will die without having heard a hundredth of it...” — JD [37:17]

• Setlists, Full-Album Shows, and Artistic Restlessness

  • Darnielle resists pressure to do “full-album” live performances (e.g., The Sunset Tree in order), preferring more dynamic sets and audience surprise.
  • “...to play it in sequence, I mean, it’s not... that’s not a good show to me. The ideal condition for hearing that album end is not communal. I think it’s by yourself.” — JD [40:58]

On Bob Dylan, Song Structures, and the Bridge

• Dylan’s Influence and Limitations

  • While Darnielle acknowledges Dylan as an inescapable influence for any songwriter, he aligns himself more with Leonard Cohen and is fascinated by what happens in a song’s “bridge,” an area he thinks Dylan doesn’t always emphasize.
  • “You wind up sounding like bad Leonard Cohen... I didn’t know anybody who was a Dylan fan who didn’t write bad Bob Dylan songs, right? ...So I avoided it.” — JD [57:09]

• Song Structure

  • “The bridge is the place where you get to show off a little how good you are at straying from where you are at melodically and getting back there, right.” — JD [49:44]

• Dylan's Legacy and Darnielle’s Own Early Touchstones

  • Only Blood on the Tracks and World Gone Wrong were early Dylan influences for Darnielle, both appreciated for their emotional directness and, in the latter, for its “contextless” depth.
  • “That’s why World Gone Wrong is so big for me... it’s just this almost contextless... it’s like, God, I heard. I saw the video for Blood In My Eyes. I was like, oh, man, this was made for me...” — JD [57:49]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Creative World-Building

“It’s much more interesting to me than it is as a story to present for others... you have to fire someplace... world building stuff... It’s like, it’s setting parameters. It’s like rolling stats.” — John Darnielle [13:39]

On Restlessness as a Virtue

“The goal is to get as far with it as you can before the last day of your life, rather than to acquire a skill set and just polish that.” — JD [11:07]

On Not Playing Album Tours

“For me, an album is a discrete event... a live show is something different... That’s not a good show to me. ...The ideal condition for hearing that album end is not communal. I think it’s by yourself.” — JD [40:58]

On Letting Songs Be Alive on Stage

“I want to play a song everybody in the room knows, and half of them don’t know what it is for the first couple of lines, right? To me, that makes the go exciting.” — JD [42:21]

On TikTok Unexpected Success

“With ‘No Children,’ it was like... people were doing a dance... it was very, very satisfying because we didn’t do that. Had nothing to do with me.” — JD [44:23]

On Memoir and Centering the Self

“I just don’t want to be the Subject. I’m not trying to tell the John Darnielle story... I’m trying to put the visions that I have into play in a place where they’re useful to other people.” — JD [32:34]

Important Segments (Timestamps)

• Album Concept Origin – [03:51]–[08:27]
• Songwriting Process & Melodies – [09:43]–[12:48]
• Collaborators on the Record – [20:28]–[24:25]
• About the Lyric Book “365” (examples included) – [27:31]–[31:39]
• Autobiography & “The Sunset Tree” Reissue – [34:25]–[36:49]
• Why Not Full-Album Shows – [39:33]–[41:03]
• On Bob Dylan’s Song Structures – [48:18]–[52:44]
• Bob Dylan Album Lightning Round – [54:21]–[56:39]
• “Lady From Shanghai 2” Backstory – [60:14]–[61:55]

Tone, Flow, and Style

The conversation is relaxed, humorous, and self-deprecating but also frequently philosophical—typical of Darnielle’s public persona. Ian is clearly a fan and pitches thoughtful, open-ended questions, allowing Darnielle’s tangents to illuminate his creative inner life.

Further Listening/Reading:

• Through This Fire Across From Peter Balcon – Out November 7, 2025
• John Darnielle’s 365: A Book of Days – Out December 2, 2025
• The Sunset Tree 20th Anniversary Edition – Out now

Summary Table – Quick Highlights

| Segment | Topic | Timestamp | |---------|-------|-----------| | Album Genesis | Dream inspiration; world-building | 03:51–08:27 | | Songwriting Growth | Melodic focus; Broadway; restless listening | 09:43–13:20 | | Collaborators | Lin-Manuel Miranda, Tommy Stinson | 20:28–24:25 | | Lyric Book “365” | Annotations, anti-memoir | 27:31–31:39 | | The Sunset Tree | Autobiography, reissue | 34:25–36:49 | | On Live & Setlists | No full-album shows, show fluidity | 39:33–41:03 | | Dylan & Song Structure | Bridges, early influences | 48:18–52:44 | | Dylan Albums | Lightning Round opinions | 54:21–56:39 | | “Lady From Shanghai” | Song origins and evolution | 60:14–61:55 |

This episode provides a deep but approachable journey into John Darnielle’s mind—how he finds stories in dreams, builds albums like a gamemaster, resists (and sometimes embraces) autobiography, and relentlessly pushes both his music and himself forward, all woven together with warmth, humor, and a lifelong obsession with the craft of song.