In Conversation: JOSH TILLMAN

Summary

Jokermen Podcast: In Conversation with Josh Tillman

Release Date: January 6, 2025
Host: Jokermen (Evan and Ian)
Guest: Josh Tillman

---

Introduction

In the inaugural episode of 2025, the Jokermen Podcast welcomes Josh Tillman, a renowned musician and close collaborator, to discuss his latest work, the album Mahash Mashana. Hosts Evan and Ian delve deep into the creative process behind the album, exploring its themes, inspirations, and the personal experiences that shaped its creation.

---

Album Development and Creative Process

Josh Tillman opens up about his involvement in the development of Mahash Mashana, highlighting his intimate role in the songwriting and recording phases. He remarks on the collaborative nature of the project, emphasizing how the album serves as both a continuation and a departure from his previous works.

Josh Tillman (02:27): "I have got, you know, that never once crossed my mind I that that that might be a talking point, given how frequently irony is invoked in understanding my work."

Evan and Ian discuss the album's reception, noting the positive critical acclaim it received in 2024. Josh acknowledges the unexpected spiritual interpretations of his work, clarifying his intentions and the use of irony in his music.

Josh Tillman (03:04): "But I did get a lot of quite. I got a good three or four questions about yoga, if I was doing yoga."

---

Exploration of Themes: Endings and Beginnings

A significant portion of the conversation centers around the album's preoccupation with endings and new beginnings. Josh shares his contemplation about whether Mahash Mashana would be his final album, only to reveal his commitment to continue creating music.

Josh Tillman (09:20): "I really want Chloe to kind of stand as its own thing. And, and so I didn't want to repeat or use any of those, any of that modality."

The hosts and Josh delve into the philosophical underpinnings of the album, discussing concepts like the nature of the self, the impact of capitalism on mental health, and the juxtaposition of schmaltz and underlying cultural violence.

Josh Tillman (24:59): "The premise of the whole record is that the 20th century, all this culture was underwritten by violence that the world had never seen before. Mechanized destruction. And yet the sound that was emitting from the planet was just. I love you, I love you, I love you."

---

Song Analysis: "Mental Health" and "Next 20th Century"

The discussion delves into specific tracks from the album, notably "Mental Health" and "Next 20th Century." Josh explains the emotional weight behind these songs, linking personal experiences to their lyrical content.

Josh Tillman (47:01): "I had a call in London at four in the morning that my daughter, that the neighbor's dog had had run into her at full speed and broke her leg. And yeah, she was three and a half."

This personal anecdote enriches the understanding of the song's depth, illustrating how real-life events influence his artistic expression.

---

Influence and Cultural Impact

Josh reflects on his influence within the music industry and his interactions with other artists. He mentions his encounters with figures like Adam Green and discusses the evolving landscape of music podcasts and their cultural significance.

Josh Tillman (38:34): "I think there are, there are certainly people who, who were fans of mine when, when I was coming up who were like very young at the time and had conversations with about lyric writing and all that stuff."

The conversation touches upon the role of podcasts in shaping cultural narratives and how platforms like YouTube are influencing music consumption and perception.

---

Personal Reflections and Family Life

Towards the end of the episode, Josh shares glimpses into his personal life, particularly his relationship with his daughter. They discuss how his role as a father intersects with his musical journey, adding a layer of authenticity and vulnerability to his work.

Josh Tillman (57:53): "But the hardest thing is to not become insane. Yeah, that's something I keep kind of coming back to is just. The hardest thing in the world is to not become insane."

Their conversations reveal the balancing act between personal responsibilities and creative ambitions, highlighting how familial bonds influence his artistic decisions.

---

Conclusion and Future Directions

As the episode wraps up, Josh expresses optimism about the future, contemplating various musical directions he could explore. Despite playful musings about retiring, he remains committed to his craft, hinting at the endless possibilities that lie ahead.

Josh Tillman (10:08): "I just want there to be balance and how much. What a heavy lift those last few lines perform. I think is. Is pretty. Pretty miraculous."

The hosts and Josh conclude the episode by reflecting on the meaningful connections formed through music and the continuous journey of artistic exploration.

---

Notable Quotes

• Evan (00:06): "Happy New year, everyone in Jokerman Podcast nation. Zevin."
• Josh Tillman (25:28): "There's some kind of disincarnate Tin Pan Alley songwriter that got like stuck in. In this realm and is like speaking through me."
• Stephen (13:10): "Oh, comedy. Oh, it's like something that a madman would conceive."

---

Final Thoughts

This episode of the Jokermen Podcast offers an in-depth look into Josh Tillman's artistic mind, blending personal storytelling with analytical discussions on music and culture. Listeners gain a comprehensive understanding of Mahash Mashana's creation, its thematic essence, and the profound experiences that shape Josh's music.

---

For more episodes and exclusive content, subscribe on Patreon here and follow @jokermenpodcast on Instagram and Twitter.

Transcript

[Evan]

Happy New year, everyone in Jokerman Podcast nation. Zevin.

[Ian]

Happy New Year to you.

[Evan]

Happy New Year to you, Ian.

[Ian]

Here we are, 2025 brand new year of Jokerman podcasts. Oh, the sights we'll see over these next 12 months. And we've got a great one here today. First main episode of the new year. Josh Tillman in conversation, close personal collaborator of yours, from what I understand, Evan?

[Evan]

Well, I would say the other way around. And yeah, I did have a very special opportunity throughout the process of the album Mahash Mashana to be privy to its kind of a lot of how it came to be, a lot of the songs as they were being developed and eventually wrote what ended up being included as a little bit of text that goes along with the record. We love the record. And so it's a great opportunity to catch up with Josh and talk about some of the finer points of the songs.

[Ian]

One of the great records of 2024, one of the great recording artists of our day, of course, and one of the great podcast guests, to be quite honest. Let's hear.

[Evan]

Welcome back, everyone. Welcome back to Jokerman podcast Today. Not really podcasts about anything in particular except our guest who is going to talk about whatever comes up with us, I suppose. This is me, Evan, and of course Ian is here present and our guest is Josh Tillman.

[Josh Tillman]

So we are not doing this is not part one of three on vegan fleece.

[Ian]

It could be. Do you want it to be? I see you're in your philosopher's stone T shirt right now, Evan. Yeah, ridiculous.

[Evan]

Yeah, we can just pause and listen to the album and come back.

[Stephen]

Fair play to you.

[Ian]

Favorite 80s van record, Josh. Put you on the spot.

[Josh Tillman]

How about that 80s one?

[Ian]

Yeah.

[Josh Tillman]

Isn't didn't common one come out in 80?

[Ian]

Oh, it sure did.

[Evan]

Cold rich baby.

[Josh Tillman]

All right, well, there you go.

[Ian]

That's a classic.

[Josh Tillman]

Yeah, I love Common one. I I Wikipedia or I looked at the Wikipedia page for that at one point. You know, there's like an aftermath heading on the wiki, on the Wikipedia page.

[Evan]

It's always good.

[Ian]

That's when you know you're looking at.

[Josh Tillman]

A good record, which just which blows my mind. People seem to be taking him to task for being spiritual. It's like, have you not heard this man's music?

[Evan]

Have you not heard the good news? Are people doing that with you right now? I saw that Pitchfork.com said that you're at a spiritual peak. How do you feel about that?

[Josh Tillman]

I have got, you know, that never once crossed my mind I that that that might be a talking point, given how frequently irony is invoked in understanding my work, that they would take the title at such face value. But I did get a lot of quite. I got a good three or four questions about yoga, if I was doing yoga.

[Evan]

Are you doing yoga?

[Josh Tillman]

No. No.

[Ian]

You do look pretty flexible, pretty pliable up there on stage. You know, you're a very animated, gesticulating performer, so I can't blame someone for.

[Josh Tillman]

Thinking, okay, easy now.

[Evan]

Supple. You're supple up there.

[Ian]

Supple. Yeah, there you go. Don't make them blush. I hear you want to talk about UFOs and drones. Is that. Do I understand correctly, Evan?

[Josh Tillman]

You want to. You want to field this one?

[Evan]

Well, this is what we mostly text about. I feel like we. Whenever there's a new breaking story in the UAP space, I think we've done a good job of keeping each other up to date.

[Josh Tillman]

Yeah. My Twitter feed has gone absolutely to hell.

[Evan]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Josh Tillman]

Just from, like. Just from looking at drone stuff.

[Evan]

Same. I. I'll go on Twitter. I don't know if this happens to you, but since they changed it to for you.

[Ian]

Right.

[Josh Tillman]

Right.

[Evan]

On X.com, like, that comes up first, and I won't notice for, like, a half hour until I just start seeing something about, like, why women should be making less money than men. And then I'm like, wait. Oh, right. It's in the. For you.

[Ian]

It's for you. That's what you're interested in.

[Evan]

And then, of course, yeah, if you click one thing with drones, then enjoy. That's all you're gonna see.

[Josh Tillman]

It just. And it just keeps getting worse and worse where you go from drones to Anunnaki until you eventually end up with Theo Vaughn.

[Ian]

A wise man, from what I've seen. I just became aware of Theo Vaughn over the last, like, four months. I think when the Donald Trump cocaine clip hit. That was the first time I even became aware of his existence. But he's. He's. He's all over the place now.

[Josh Tillman]

Ever since Pod Saved America.

[Ian]

Mm.

[Evan]

He seems a very open man. He seems. It seems like he knows nothing about anything.

[Ian]

He's got the blank stare of a dog every time I see him, which there's something kind of charming about, I gotta confess.

[Evan]

Beginner's mind, they call it.

[Josh Tillman]

Yeah. That just you. Yeah. YouTube's campaign to get you watching the constellation of podcasts that come out of the Comedy store is disconcerting. YouTube? Really? It's Instagram for men, isn't it? Has the DCCC come to deputize you guys yet in the, the campaign?

[Ian]

Not yet, unfortunately.

[Josh Tillman]

You know, they're, they're looking for, they're looking for some, some left wing kickboxers to lead the charge into 28.

[Ian]

I was posting about this, you know, the weekend after the election, you know, as the, as the left wing Rogan discourse, you know, hit a fever pitch. But I think that, you know, the root beer report segment of our program could well be exactly what the Democratic Party needs in order to make contact with some of the less politically engaged swing voters out there across this great nation.

[Evan]

It's a neutral space, Root beer. I think that all Americans have it in common in terms of being something they've heard of, something they've drank. Maybe.

[Ian]

Maybe.

[Evan]

Yeah, probably during the Civil War, north and south, they were both making root beer.

[Josh Tillman]

Yeah, there you go. I mean, everyone's emboldened by hindsight, you know, to autopsy what, how it all went down. And I just, I do wonder if the podcast explanation is going to make it into like future history books. But podcast, it really is sort of becoming like the essence of the culture.

[Evan]

That's where we are. We're right there in the, in the middle. This is the center of the universe. You appearing here. Anything you want to say to the people of the world?

[Josh Tillman]

No. No.

[Evan]

Train my day Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. What do you feel about the way the record is, how it's being received by the general public? I feel like that's something we have to ask you, being the music podcast that we tend to be.

[Josh Tillman]

It's the vibe check.

[Evan]

Yeah. Just where does it stand? What's in the air beyond people asking you about yoga?

[Josh Tillman]

It sounds like I've returned to form.

[Ian]

That's what I'm hearing. He's back and better than ever.

[Josh Tillman]

I mean, really, anything that came after my fake jazz album that wasn't more fake jazz was, Was going to be perceived as a return to form. Even though there's, there's, there's some fake jazz, there's. There's some fake jazz on this record.

[Ian]

There's a little bit of fake. Those are some of the best songs, the fake jazz songs on this one.

[Josh Tillman]

Yeah, I, I had created a parameter around this record where I was like, I really want Chloe to kind of stand as its own thing. And, and so I didn't want to repeat or use any of those, any of that modality. But it's tough not to add flute.

[Evan]

Yeah, that's one of the hardest things for a musician.

[Ian]

Just Ask Van Morrison to keep your.

[Josh Tillman]

Finger off the flute button. Once. Once you've let that. Once you've let that thing out of the box.

[Evan]

Flutes burning a hole in your pocket the whole time. For the first nine records, I think.

[Josh Tillman]

If there was any flute. Now there's. I don't know, there's. There were some Tron flutes here and there, but no, not the same.

[Ian]

You did have a quote going around at one point, I think, from one of the interviews that you delivered on this cycle, as they call it in the industry, but I forget what it was verbatim, but you said something like, I'll make more albums in the future, but Maha Bashano will always be my last album. And I think some areas of the culture pulled some of that out of context and ran with it. What. Can you. Can you elaborate on that to the extent that you want to, or.

[Josh Tillman]

I mean, I think it has a lot of the signifiers of a last album. There are some callbacks to the. Some pretty overt callbacks to the first record. And then it also. We kind of used the whole toolbox on this thing. You know, I think I was just trying to survive an interview.

[Ian]

Fair enough.

[Josh Tillman]

I was like, once I get to 3,000 words, I can hang up. But yeah, I mean, it, you know, it. It is sort of preoccupied with endings. So I thought, you know, it would be. It would be a shame if I just keep languishing on for five or six more albums after this. Clearly fitting. Ado.

[Evan]

So is that your plan?

[Josh Tillman]

No, I. I'm actually. I mean, now is kind of the most. This period where you're right in the blast site of a record coming out and it is. It seems to be well received and you've got some tailwinds and just a few fragments that you're kicking around. There's just endless directions you can go. And those are kind of fun. Like, am I going to make a country record? Am I going to make a. An alien rock opera? So the future is bright. I read, I listened to a PT Anderson interview actually one time where he said that the day after he finishes, the day after he wraps on something, he starts writing the next thing. Because there's just kind of all this.

[Ian]

Momentum, sense of new, you know, like kind of a weight being shrugged off the shoulders, I would imagine.

[Josh Tillman]

Yeah, I mean, it kind of reminds me a little bit of. I think I kind of get another at bat in the way that I. You know, after Honey Bear, I kind of had a blank check and I think I have a little bit of like auteur brain sickness, where the most obvious path forward or, you know, the way to, to use all this credit was to make something just jam packed with all my best and worst impulses. And I'm trying, I'm actually trying to, to be mindful of that this time around, like, because when I say rock opera, I'm not, I'm not entirely kidding, you know, I mean, my instinct is to. Is, I guess, to zag. And I don't want to do that just for the sake of doing that. Pure Comedy was kind of. It was a really reactionary record.

[Ian]

What were you reacting against, if memory.

[Josh Tillman]

Serves, when the record came out, it was sort of one cultural landscape. And about six months later that the landscape had changed dramatically. And I was sort of felt like I was sort of in the center of this like, satanic panic that was going down. And I felt. Well, maybe it wasn't so much that I think it, it was largely that the, the image of me that that emerged was this term that I kept seeing over and over again was like indie rock prankster or indie folk prankster, which is the lamest way to describe the lamest thing ever. But the, the humor thing was just really foregrounded and, and I think I was defensive about that. And so I thought, I'm going to make an incredibly unfunny album called Pure Comedy.

[Stephen]

Oh, comedy. Oh, it's like something that a madman would conceive. The only thing that seems to make them feel alive is the struggle to survive, but the only thing that they request is something to numb the pain with until there's nothing human left.

[Josh Tillman]

And it's going to be unlistenable. Well, it's going to be a freaking slog.

[Evan]

You failed at that. I think people like it.

[Ian]

Our buddy Stephen Hayden, I think that's his number one Father John Misty record. So we got a couple fans on that one.

[Evan]

You know, when you talk about like the idea of a. A rock opera approach or like even having the inclination for something that could be described like that, I'm reminded of a mutual friend, Adam Green. He's often talking about like his, his idea of total art, of this sort of all consuming, multifaceted multidimensional art form where you see it in his films and of which you're in one, actually.

[Josh Tillman]

Yeah, no, I wasn't in Aladdin or, or the Wrong Ferrari. But yes, he made that Total Entertainment Forever video.

[Evan]

Yeah. And your having worked with him does come to mind because he's, I think, another artist who has definitely gone into a kind of all consuming theatricality. And I do see, especially in the latest record, some things that sort of hint toward that or expand on elements of that type that you've already introduced with those callbacks and with these kinds of meta commentaries on your own work. And even with the last record, I mean, with the previous, I think on Chloe, there's attempts to just make a song that stands upon its own merits as a. A love song without being referential, yet also existing within maybe your most explicitly conceptual framework. So it might, I guess, leave listeners wondering right now, where do you feel Mahash Mashana exists for you in terms of attempting or not attempting things in that direction?

[Josh Tillman]

Yeah, yeah. This new one does have a bit of. I mean, it's just a normal album, you know, it's in. In some ways a little like J.J. abrams fan service, you know.

[Ian]

Say more.

[Josh Tillman]

Well, I mean, after the last, After Chloe, like, I was excited to use that, that voice that I cultivated over the first four records again, you know, because it. It had really. It had really been a minute. I was excited to do another Josh Tillman song. And so I think the things that I was excited to do just happened to align with the things that the audience has come to, you know, expect. So I can't really imagine doing. Doing anything, you know, quite like that just yet. But you just never know. I mean, you. You make these. I mean, Chloe really, while it has a really strong conceptual core, humming at the center of it. I was really feeling, kind of feeling my way in the dark when I was making it. And the theme didn't really become apparent until the end of the process. At the end of the process, there was this. I was deliberating whether or not to put that next 20th century song at the end.

[Ian]

Wow.

[Josh Tillman]

I remember before I started that album, I was listening to a lot of normal music and kind of brow beating and going like, why can't I just make a normal song? I just want to make normal songs. And I felt like I had really accomplished that and I didn't want to grad school it up by sticking this thing at the end. And it really was like. I mean, the last evening of mixing where we just put it up on the board, and the second it came on, it was just like, oh yeah, oh yeah, this is the one. But that. That song had given me the thrust to even write those songs because I, I went in. I remember I went in with like five or six songs. And this was during COVID and everybody, you know, everybody was freaking out and so it was a really. It was a real skeleton crew of just me, Jonathan, and in the studio. And I thought, like, let's just. The original conceit was like, let's make an album where we don't leave the control room where we're just using keyboards and, you know, we're not going for the. The gaucho anechoic drum sounds and the. And I was really into this idea of just using software strings and all that.

[Ian]

Sure.

[Josh Tillman]

And the only. The two songs that made it out of that first session were Kiss Me and Next 20th Century. And Next 20th Century lyrics were still majorly in flux. Like, it didn't have the. The come build your burial grounds on our burial grounds stuff at the end. But it was from early on dealing with what is the role of love in subjugation and domination. And I thought that that song was in a really interesting conversation with Kiss Me, which is a real, like, boilerplate kind of ballad. The only time that I've gotten sweaty playing a song for the fellas, you know, when they're like, okay, what are we cutting? And I sang that, and it was brutal. It was like, horrible, you know, because that song, it doesn't flatter my self image of being like an irascible witness or whatever.

[Ian]

The jester of indie rock.

[Josh Tillman]

Yes. An indie folk jester, an indie folk prankster. But that was really exciting. And once the fake strings went on and all that, it just felt it was very moving. And I came out of that first session with those two songs going, okay, this is the. We're going to make an alternate timeline, a collection of alternate timeline American standard kind of songs. And they're going to be. They're going to be charged by this unsettling song at the end. So that. That was kind of what gave me the juice. But then, oddly enough, by the time it was all finished, I wasn't sure I wanted to commit to. To that whole idea. But I'm certainly glad I did.

[Ian]

Thank God you did.

[Josh Tillman]

I wish I had re sung next 20th century, like one more time before we committed it to tape.

[Evan]

But why?

[Josh Tillman]

I just. A lot of the time these vocal. These like final vocal takes are like the second time you've ever sung the song all the way through. And after having sung it live a hundred times now, I really feel like I've got the delivery down the way it should be. It's. It's a little. It's a little butter soft on the record, I think. But, Evan, you. You read that Scott Walker, that book of Scott Walker criticism that I did.

[Evan]

Yeah.

[Josh Tillman]

I can't remember what it was called, but there's this amazing section where he's making a defense for schmaltz.

[Evan]

Yeah.

[Josh Tillman]

Talking about surface. How what's so unsettling about schmaltz is that it's all surface. It's just miles and miles of opaque surface. And what makes it so unsettling is that you have no idea what's underneath. And that was the. That was what emerged as the premise of the whole record is that the 20th century, all this culture was underwritten by violence that the world had never seen before. Mechanized destruction. And yet the sound that was emitting from the planet was just. I love you, I love you, I love you.

[Evan]

You know, we just spent like months and months. We had our summer of Randy Newman that ended up becoming the fall of Randy Newman.

[Ian]

The fall and winter of Randy Newman.

[Evan]

And he's one example, Scott Walker, another. Bob Dylan too, I think. You know, with Triplicate, this dynamic appears in all of those artists work and yours too. But that thing of schmaltz being weaponized might not be the right word. I think that that would be. That's when it's done, I think, for a kind of gotcha effect. But when it's done for something, for aims that I think are deeper and larger, there is that conscious understanding of schmaltz being representative of the most rarefied form of human communication. As close to sacred as secular music gets. Like when Bob Dylan does triplicate. We've already heard every Bob Dylan record. So then when he does Stormy Weather or something, or September of My Years, it's like he's reading from the Bible. And because it's him, it's imbued with all of this extra context and this weight and depth. We know how far he can go. And so when you hear him do something, it seems like, oh, it's. Everyone knows that. Whatever. There's an invitation or a challenge maybe to reconsider. What some might think of as schmaltz is actually a very powerful thing.

[Josh Tillman]

He just. By opening his mouth, he's a deconstructive force.

[Ian]

Totally.

[Josh Tillman]

You know, if you were to. You can apply him to any. To any song. And it sort of gets reconfigured contextually.

[Evan]

With Chloe and the way that that song finishes off the record and recontextualizes it. And now with Mahaj Mashana, I think you can go confidently forward into ever schmaltzier territory with like the. The context in place that you've established with your records. And I think you can access some of the more arcane.

[Josh Tillman]

Yeah.

[Evan]

The astral plane of schmaltz.

[Josh Tillman]

Yeah. You know, there's some kind of. I don't. I don't know. There's some kind of disincarnate Tin Pan Alley songwriter that got like stuck in. In this realm and is like speaking through me. So. Because I. I have no, I didn't grow up listening to that stuff. And, you know, one thing I've said before, part of the reason why Chloe was so satisfying to make is because I didn't understand why I was doing it. I mean, some of it was a. Some of it was a bit of a kamikaze thing where I was examining a culture that seems to have lost all momentum and that expressing through me, through what I perceive to be my self expression as just being kind of recycling 20th century canon, you know, and feeling sort of hopeless in that. And I thought, well, let's just completely double down. And just like I said, in this like, sort of vulgar, vulgar way, I. In a way, sort of creatively, I was, look. I was kind of looking for the bottom. But with Schmaltz, for the first time in a while, I. Something has shifted in my listening. Like, I. I listen. One of my favorite songs is. Is Mandy by Barry Manilow. And I was listening to it recently, and for the first time I was like, I just wish I could get rid of these streams.

[Stephen]

Happy people pass my way Looking in their eyes I see See a memory I never realized how happy you made me oh man well you came and you gave well, I taken But I sent you away oh man Will you kiss me and stop me from shaking?

[Josh Tillman]

Like, there's just. I wish I could just take that. There's like this wool blanket over the song and I just want to hear the song. And he employs every production trick that I would put on there, you know, replete with elevator shaft, snare drum and all that. And I was. Now I'm just kind of like. I don't think I want to hear another. Another violin for a while.

[Ian]

It sounds like the Let it Be shit, you know, like there's those Let it Be naked sessions that they put out, you know, 30 years later or something that was a representation of like, I don't know, they build it at the time is like, this is what Paul and George Martin like, wanted this record. This is how they envisioned this record to be before Phil Spector came in.

[Josh Tillman]

And before Oedipus came in. And we were just listening to that album. Around here on a, on a loop. My daughter like fell in love with it and yeah, I got kind of a Stockholm syndrome where I was like, do I. Do I like the Long and Winding Road? Do I love Phil Spector's arrangement on this?

[Ian]

I think I've come around to it.

[Josh Tillman]

I think the weakest thing about it really is Paul's performance.

[Ian]

Interesting.

[Josh Tillman]

I think if that performance was better, I don't know why they used that take. I mean, they must have had a hundred takes that song. But, but that, but he feels really checked out in the, in the vocal.

[Ian]

I can see that. I mean, definitely compared to something like hey Jude.

[Josh Tillman]

Yeah.

[Ian]

Which has also got this huge, towering, swelling kind of conclusion to it. But like, I mean, the way Paul, like Paul, you know, puts his old pussy into that one. Along the Winding Road, it might be sort of a mismatch, honestly, the fact that maybe that was supposed to be a thinner, lighter song and so maybe it's a thinner, lighter vocal and then, you know, Spectre just comes and squirts Phil Spectre juice all over Tell.

[Josh Tillman]

He's sort of exhausted and there's just. It's. It. It's lacking the commitment required to make that one come across, I think. But I do think it's a good. I think Mal Evans like wrote the second verse of that song.

[Evan]

What does your daughter think? Have you sat her down and gone, all right, listen, do you hear Paul?

[Josh Tillman]

Do you think they did a sub mix of this and then sent it off to Phil Spector?

[Evan]

Because I'm going to play these both for you and you're going to tell. Just tell me what you think.

[Josh Tillman]

Just.

[Evan]

I'm not even gonna say anything. Just, just.

[Josh Tillman]

We actually do a lot of a being. She's a she. Her favorite song is Helter Skelter.

[Ian]

Oh, wow. All right. You got a future.

[Josh Tillman]

Yeah.

[Ian]

And this is like at age Manson Girl in the House.

[Josh Tillman]

Yeah. The indications don't stop there, by the way. But I mean, we would drive. We'd go on like two three hour drives and listen to Helter Skelter the, the whole time. And I'll just be like, now I'm ready to kill pigs. But we just got to a place where I was like, break this up a little bit. So we would listen to the isolated drum tracks. She would listen all the way through the seven minute isolated drum track. The bass, the isolated bass, the isolated vocals. And this led to listening to, you know, like an outtake of hey Jude and she really. It's. She is so intelligent. It's it's really too bad that her father is just inputting Boomer rock. I should be teaching her like Mandarin Chinese. But her ear for drums is. Is pretty shocking. Like the. The Beatles. We had to. We had to put on ice for a little bit and she wanted to hear another band. I was like, well, let's listen to the who. And now it's been six months of the who. She fell in love with Pinball wizard, wanted to know what album Pinball wizard was on. So this led to playing Tommy, like, we gotta skip, you know, fiddling about and whatever, but. And talking about, you know, what does deaf, dumb and blind mean? And. And this leading to a conversation about what is the experience of reality to someone who has no sensory damn experience.

[Ian]

Sounds like a hell of a cultural education you're giving the kid.

[Josh Tillman]

All good stuff. This is. Yeah, this is happening in like 18 minute sessions to and from school. But we were listening to Sister Disco or one of the later. One of the later who songs. And she's like, you can tell they're older now. Like they're not as. They're not as crazy. He's like, yeah, they are older. And. And she says Keith is playing more like Ringo.

[Evan]

Wow.

[Josh Tillman]

She said and. And use the word restraint.

[Evan]

Whoa.

[Josh Tillman]

She's five, you know, Goodbye Sister Disco.

[Stephen]

With your flashing trash lamps. Goodbye Sister Disco and to your clubs and your tr.

[Josh Tillman]

And she said she. He's playing like Ringo but. But one level more crazy.

[Ian]

Hell yeah. You got a future music podcaster you're raising right there. Let's. Let's get her on the mic.

[Evan]

Seriously.

[Josh Tillman]

But, but yeah. Long and Long and Winding Road. It's a tragic. What could have been one of the.

[Ian]

Weaker songs on the record. I gotta say. I. I think honestly some days, like Let It Be like can be top three level Beatles record for me, but Long Winding Road is going to be towards the bottom of the actual, you know, quality material on that record.

[Josh Tillman]

Two of Us is brutal.

[Ian]

Oh, I love Two of Us. I think that's a great one.

[Josh Tillman]

That's a classic 2018 mix that Giles did. He just like, he put all this like sub bass in the kick and says you'd like to. I just. When I listen to that song, I just heard John Lennon like wanting to scream.

[Ian]

Yeah. You know, I gotta. I see what you mean. I kind of look past that and I do buy. Because I mean especially knowing like this is the end of the. Like I think they know it's the end of the road by the time they're making that Record. Right.

[Josh Tillman]

Right.

[Ian]

Like, they. They can see the end coming already. The end kind of has already come, in fact, in many ways. And so two of us, to me, is kind of like. It's almost like, you know, in a movie when there's, like, a breakup, but then they, like, have sex one more time just for that. Just. Just one for the road, you know, One more time. Oh, that's. That's kind of what I see two of us as, like, one last kind of pure Lennon McCartney light little, you know, friendship number where they're having breakup sex. Even if, you know, obviously it was not. It was very much not where Lennon's head was at going into the 70s.

[Josh Tillman]

There are so many. I mean, if there was 50 hours. If they put out 50 hours of that movie, you'd have to, like. You could put a feeding tube in me and. And just aluminum foil out the windows, and I'd live a happy life.

[Evan]

Yeah. Those were, like, some of the best hours of. I just love when, like, you know, these next eight hours are spoken for. Like, I'm set for however long this thing goes.

[Josh Tillman]

Yeah. There's one little conversation about two of us where they're talking about it not having any days. And John's like, have we. He's like. Or Paul's making a defense for the song not having bass. He's like, oh, yeah, we did that once before. He's like. He's like, oh, it's on. I'm looking through you.

[Ian]

Yeah.

[Josh Tillman]

It's just so wild to see those guys referencing. I mean, not to mention Paul, like, covering Strawberry Fields for Forever on the piano. That might be my favorite recording of music of all time. Is. Is Paul McCartney plaintively covering sneakily. Just like, covering Strawberry Fields Forever over in the corner, like, something. And you get this sense that this is something that he's played at the house, like, hundreds of times just for his own enjoyment. But he's never. John's never heard it, and he's just kind of doing it for the cameras a little bit. It's. It's just such an incredible stolen moment. And somebody aied the whole version. Like, I think they only had half of it recorded or something. And there's some YouTube video with the whole. The whole tune.

[Ian]

That's how you're getting to Theo Vaughan on YouTube. You're listening to the AI versions of Strawberry Fields.

[Josh Tillman]

Oh, my God. If your listeners have not checked out Theo Vaughn, we will. We'll put a link below.

[Stephen]

Well, let me take you down.

[Ian]

Cause I'm going.

[Josh Tillman]

Strawberry Nothing Is real.

[Stephen]

Now let's record it all this afternoon.

[Ian]

Now on the note of move. I mean this might be a dead end conversation before we even get started. Any. Have you, have you happened to see a certain major motion picture released by Searchlight Pictures about Columbia recording artist Bob Dylan recently? Or do you have plans to see it? If you haven't.

[Josh Tillman]

Great. Unknown.

[Ian]

Complete.

[Josh Tillman]

Complete unknown. Yeah, I will probably, probably watch it on an airplane. Yeah, there's a new trailer out where they've given. I think it's blowing in the wind. Like the full Lumineers treatment.

[Ian]

Yeah, the hey Ho stomp clap version. Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

[Josh Tillman]

You know, people are crazy about the Lumineers. I've played a few festivals with them and they are huge still, even today.

[Ian]

Like still.

[Josh Tillman]

Yes.

[Ian]

Wow. There's a whole other world out there.

[Josh Tillman]

I mean that was a tough road to hoe after that, you know, I mean I think that hey Ho song in most circles is like sort of viewed as the patient zero for like everything wrong with Obama era music. But, but they, they have some. He's a good songwriter, he's got great voice. And, and yeah, they have, they have sort of influenced that whole. This whole new second wave of Zach Bryan and Noah Kahan. I mean he, he is the, he is the great unknown to all those guys.

[Ian]

You feel like you have played a role in, in any of this to any extent, whether you wanted to or not.

[Josh Tillman]

Have I had it? Do I, do I perceive an influence? Yes, I think there are, there are certainly people who, who were fans of mine when, when I was coming up who were like very young at the time and had conversations with about lyric writing and all that stuff. But no, I mean I. God, I was looking, you know, on that Casey Musgraves tour, which you came to. Yeah, looking out at like 20,000 people is, is pretty intense. And I was just thinking like what kind of twisted ass world would it be if I was playing to 40,000 people in Los Angeles? Just as far as like, I don't think that's an influence. I don't think that's a good influence for. I don't. You know what I mean? Like if I had a, like a hundred times the influence on the culture that, that I do now. Like, I don't think that would be.

[Ian]

Great net negative for the 40,000 people in the crowd.

[Evan]

Start writing different type songs again. You just sort of slowly make your way back into the Lumineers territory and be like, you know what? This time I'm feeling like I've done A lot of experimental records, and I've done a normal one. Now I want to do one that's extra normal.

[Josh Tillman]

I did write Scream Land. Yeah.

[Evan]

That is true. And I think that that song has. I've noticed that it's pretty divisive.

[Josh Tillman]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Evan]

Some people do not get that texture.

[Josh Tillman]

No.

[Evan]

The worship song adjacent sound, which.

[Josh Tillman]

You know what? You're missing out.

[Stephen]

Hallelujah. We are not alone God really loves us. God really loves us.

[Josh Tillman]

You are missing out. If you were policing that aesthetic, I. Yeah, I mean, I. I love that kind of thing. I mean, the biggest problem I had with it was the lyrics of the chorus. And it took a long time to finesse the verse lyrics in such a way where I felt like I had a little latitude to. To dumb out on. On the chorus. And I. And to be honest, I never. I cannot really give you any kind of rationalization for why those lyrics are what they are, other than I had started writing the song and I had this instinct that there was something there. But I knew that if I started around with the chorus lyrics, the whole thing would just. I would just never finish it. Because there was just never really going to be a smart lyric that could be, you know, bellowed in that way. And it was kind of a constant. It was a constant fight during the mixing about the vocal level. Because I really wanted to keep it just sort of a texture, you know, I was working within the hyper pop tradition. I'm a traditionalist.

[Ian]

I think Screamland was the first single from the record, too.

[Josh Tillman]

Right, right. Which was just. I mean, we never get the single right. We it up every.

[Ian]

Was that okay. So you just. You kind of knew going into it, like, let's just put this one out there and see what happens.

[Josh Tillman]

It was the first time. I mean, generally speaking, the single is whatever the shortest one is. That's just kind of. That's really. All we can do on that front. But it did just sort of. I mean, to me, it just sort of screamed. Single was like, this is. This is the one. And I can't. I mean, it's just looking at it. Yeah. If I put myself in the minds of, like, an out, you know, someone other than myself, I. I realized what a just completely bewildering choice that was.

[Evan]

I like how it contrasts with how the album actually sounds when it starts. I think it's like a nice little bit of misdirection.

[Josh Tillman]

Yeah.

[Evan]

And it doesn't even sound like anything else on the record at all. It does have a certain weight to it that I think is like a hint about what the record really is going for, even if it doesn't have the same approach as most of the other stuff. The weight of the record, though, the real heaviest thing on it to me is this sort of slightest thing on it is the closer. I do feel like Summer's Gone, which sounds most like out of anything that maybe, like it could have been on the previous album on Chloe. That last bit of the album, especially the last line lines. Well, the first time I heard it, I really was emotionally overtaken by it because there's so much piss and vinegar on the track preceding it. And the last line of the record, I think, is like this huge pivot, this tiny pivot that makes a huge difference.

[Josh Tillman]

Yeah, I mean, those moments of levity are really important to my. To. To what I want to do to what I want to get across. And I think people get distracted by the. I mean, I'm not interested in something unless there's contrast. And whether that's contrast between a particularly acidic lyric and a sort of schmaltzy arrangement or upending what appears to be the theme of a song or an album with the last line, which is something that I did kind of ad nauseam on pure comedy. I just want there to be balance and how much. What a heavy lift those last few lines perform. I think is. Is pretty. Pretty miraculous. Like I said, an album preoccupied with endings. That last line about my daughter just. It's after all this ending, like a new beginning, you know? I do, yeah. I wonder how. I wonder if that. I wonder if people even read. Maybe I needed to put a finer point on that or something. I figured the skinning your knee kind of made it pretty obvious that it was about a child.

[Evan]

I think so. But, I mean, you've kept it, your family and private life pretty close to the vest, especially in the last few years. But that bit of openness at the end of the record, even if it's a little bit oblique, I think that that does feel like really a new territory for you. And I wondered about where that came for you. Like, how aware of that inclusion and that idea were you during the process of making the record, that it would lead up to a moment like that.

[Josh Tillman]

Well, it was kind of in real time, you know, when I started, when I was writing that song, I was just sort of in the sway of the. The theme, you know, the themes that seem to be coming up. Time, aging, insanity, all that. And just kind of figured I was writing another one of those. That was actually like the Second song. The second or third song, those that was written for the record. And it just occurred to me, like, by the end of having written the second verse, I was just like, what the am I talking about? You know, like, I. I'm. I have this responsibility to this little person. Like, there's no time for this sort of, like, wallowing, you know, I'm not going anywhere. So that line, it had to be written, you know, it had to be acknowledged. And I think the diff. Yeah, I think the defiance that came up in Mental Health. There's. There's a bit that magic child Run baby run, baby run that just. I. That was. I had the verses and then I had that outro part. I didn't have a chorus, and so Drew and I had sort of demoed a bit of it, but it was just, like, really obviously lacking, like, a chorus and like a. I wasn't quite sure where I was going with the. With the theme other than, you know, like, rejecting the notion of identity as some fixed structure that can be tweaked to optimal performance through drugs or therapy or a materialist understanding of the. Of the self. And we went and played the first show of the Chloe Tour, which is like a festival in Indianapolis. It was the first time I'd been gone for a while and I was trapped in one of these hermetically sealed double tree hotel rooms on the 14th floor in downtown Indianapolis. Just kind of feeling and feeling nuts.

[Ian]

The glamour of showbiz.

[Josh Tillman]

Yeah. And I remember. I remember, like, I still. I remember pulling back the bed sheet and going, mental health, Mental health. And tucking myself into bed. No one knows you like yourself and. And then just having like, a lunatic episode of laughter and that, you know, that sort of brought the whole tune together. But the Run Baby Run thing always had this. This char. This real charge to it. And I mean, I think aside from. From Speed, that really. That the. The ideas in that song really hit the closest to home when you're thinking about what do I want for my kids? Like, what kind of experience do I want for them? And, like, you know, looking around at what's on offer or what passes as sanity, just thinking, like, I really. God, I really hope. I hope this isn't it.

[Stephen]

They never turn the cameras song.

[Josh Tillman]

But I. I think that that Run Baby Run thing really was almost. I think it might have been a precognitive thing or, like, why it had such a charge or why it was so, like, set from the very beginning. Like, why would it would be in the song? Because after that the night after that Scott Walker thing, I w. I, I got a call in London at four in the morning that my daughter, that the neighbor's dog had had run into her at full speed and broke her leg.

[Ian]

Oh God.

[Josh Tillman]

And yeah, she was three and a half.

[Ian]

Jesus.

[Josh Tillman]

And so I, you know, I like got on the next flight and flew to Stanford. And that, that line, every time that line comes back around now, I, I just, it's so intense just looking at her, you know, completely, you know, in like a full, like half a body cast. I mean, it was just so heartbreaking and, and such. You're just like, you just cannot wait for them to be free again and just being so worried that they're not going to be the same after and all that. And that, that really, that really charged that. That lyric for me and charges the. It's like the most important aspect of the song.

[Stephen]

Really pretty tough, is knowing I didn't go nearly.

[Josh Tillman]

In that song in particular, you know, that it's a big old platitude at the end, like that it's all in your mind. But I think, I think with us from a different perspective, it's actually like incredibly empowering.

[Ian]

Yeah, I think that's the great way to fulfill that song. Especially a song that, I mean, it's literally called Mental Health. Like that's such a, it's such a loaded term in today's society. I mean, I just, you know, reflexively roll my eyes when I start seeing people talk about mental health, you know, sincerely, you know, without any sort of understanding of what exactly it is that they're talking about.

[Evan]

Awareness.

[Ian]

Or maybe talking around awareness. Exactly.

[Evan]

Have you heard of mental health?

[Ian]

Yeah. People even say like, you know, that he has mental health. She has. It's not even like mental health disorders problems. It's literally just like I have mental health. You have mental health.

[Evan]

You got any more of that mental health? We were talking, I mean, during the whole making of the record and you would send me versions of songs and in process in progress. There was definitely a lot of discussion about that song being kind of your My Way, the Sinatra classic, as opposed to their way. My Way kind of is this completely navel gazing, insular song, this defensive song.

[Josh Tillman]

Incredibly defensive.

[Evan]

Regrets. I've had a few, but never mind, actually. But even if it has some superficial similarities to that song, I think yours is much more of a love song than a self love song.

[Josh Tillman]

Yeah, the self kind of keeps popping up throughout the record. Kind of a yearning for the no self. And just like you Know, in that song, I'm just kind of poking these notions of, you know, where do. Where do I quote, unquote, I even exist. You know, I mean, I exist as this like really low resolution avatar of a few predictable kind of traits in the minds of other people. And then in my own mind, it's just some com. Completely complete ego distortion that likely bears no resemblance to the naked reality of what I or we are. And I just kind of kept like. I didn't have to pull that. What was funny is I didn't have to pull that thread very hard, you know, because our notions of the self, like, they really don't tolerate too. Too much examination before they just become completely abstract. And then on the other side of it, when you have kids, and then you see these traits like completely replicated in, you know, passed down to a. Like another version of you. And so.

[Ian]

And listening to the drum track, the isolated drum track from Helter Skelter. Yeah.

[Evan]

You produce another. A little helper to be like, now what do you think of these drums?

[Ian]

Daughter John Misty.

[Evan]

Daughter John Misty. Yeah, yeah.

[Josh Tillman]

But that one, it really, it's. I, you know, we're just getting gaslit by capitalism. The thinking that, you know, these pathologies are a result of some kind of individual problem and not. Not systemic of a megastructure that is uniquely apt at producing lonely, maladapted people. It's not us, it's you.

[Ian]

Amen, brother.

[Josh Tillman]

And I've seen people, you know, I mean people with my. They love to say like, well, it doesn't exactly offer any solutions, but I think it's like, well, they're just not. They're certainly not the solutions you're looking for.

[Stephen]

This dream will fall inside feel so for real sometime.

[Josh Tillman]

But it, it.

[Stephen]

So in your mind.

[Josh Tillman]

What does a Jokerman's morning regimen look like? What are you guys having for breakfast?

[Evan]

Ian and I are quite different on this front.

[Ian]

Yeah, I have Greek yogurt and granola and blueberries and black coffee made in a pour over.

[Josh Tillman]

Nice. And I was. Yeah, so this is like a Greek. So you're getting some protein from the yogurt.

[Ian]

Got to get the protein. Exactly. It's very important. I've realized as I've aged. Yeah, a little bit.

[Evan]

What'd you have for breakfast today, Josh?

[Josh Tillman]

This morning I had two soft boiled eggs and a piece of sourdough toast. But I have been getting into something like pretty twisted lately where I take a. This is like on a day where maybe like the day before I've worked out or something. And I need a crazy breakfast, but, like a. A big slice of sourdough toast. And then. And then I'm grating some garlic on there, and then some. Some parmesan. Balsamic vinaigrette, two eggs, Calabrian chili.

[Ian]

Oh, baby, yes.

[Josh Tillman]

And then sardines. Ooh, yeah.

[Ian]

Beautiful.

[Evan]

I've been on that as well. Like, I've have the tin fish pretty much always on hand.

[Ian]

Fantastic stuff.

[Evan]

You get some bread, you fry it up, you rub the garlic on the bread. Yeah, yeah. Evan, this morning, like many mornings, I'll do the white rice and the sushi rice in the rice cooker with an egg cracked in it and a little soy sauce.

[Josh Tillman]

Ooh, you bad boy. Wow.

[Ian]

More of a savory approach. Interesting.

[Evan]

Yeah. Only ever savory breakfast, pretty much. And, yeah. Black coffee. Or the pills. The Adderall, the Wellbutrin, the Red Bull, The Evan pills.

[Ian]

The pills that make Evan Evan.

[Evan]

Well, the ones that keep me Evan.

[Ian]

Keep you from not being Evan? Yeah.

[Evan]

Yeah. The ones that keep me from not being Evan. The hardest thing is to not become insane. Yeah, that's something I keep kind of coming back to is just. The hardest thing in the world is to not become insane.

[Josh Tillman]

Well, you're not gonna prevent that from happening without a decent breakfast.

[Stephen]

But still they lead me back to the long winding road? You left me standing here a long, long time? Don't keep me waiting here? Lead me to your door.