Jokermen Podcast: In Conversation with Julian Ehrlich & Max Kakacek of Whitney

Episode Date: November 10, 2025
Host: Ian
Guests: Julian Ehrlich & Max Kakasek (Whitney)

Episode Overview

This in-depth conversation with Julian Ehrlich and Max Kakasek of Whitney (the “Whitney Boys”) coincides with the release of their new album, Small Talk. The trio discusses the dynamic of being long-time friends, roommates, and collaborators; the evolution of their sound, particularly in relation to their pandemic album Spark; the process and emotions behind Small Talk; favorite influences (including The Band and Bob Dylan); and cap things off with a lively, extended tangent on basketball and life in Chicago. The conversation is candid, warm, and full of the band’s signature understated humor and thoughtfulness.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Roommate/Bandmate Dynamic and Longevity

• The Whitney “Small Business” Partnership:
  • Julian and Max reflect on living and working together for over a decade, navigating both personal and professional evolution.
  • “We've lived together for the last, like, 12 years or something...and, you know, we've released three sort of three and a half records throughout that span, so we've kind of, like, seen it all.” — Max (03:09)
  • Max recently married and is moving, marking the end of an era but feeling like "we're gonna go out on a high note because, yeah, this record just feels good." (03:41)

2. Evolution of Whitney’s Sound

• Pandemic and the Making of Spark:
  • Both describe Spark as a "pandemic record," born out of a creative rut with their usual instruments.
  • “During the Spark writing process ... we were, like, pretty uninspired by, like, our, like, kind of chosen avenues of instrumentation ... How can we just, like, completely shake this up?” — Julian (06:42)
  • They abandoned guitar as the primary writing tool, embracing piano, samples, and programming.
• Returning to Roots with Small Talk:
  • Small Talk marks a return to a more organic, band-like sound (“back to doing what we want, both what we want to do and what we know how to do well” — Max, 09:10).
  • They discuss the liberating feeling of “agency and space to execute exactly how we want to.”

3. The Pressure (or Not) of "The Big Song" (‘No Woman’)

• No Woman has “like a hundred million streams or something," but the band doesn’t dwell on metrics:
  • “At this point, it's gonna sound like I'm making this up. But ... I didn't have Spotify until after Forever Turned Around [in] 2020 ... I was like, do we stream well?” — Julian (10:24)
  • Both acknowledge a pressure that comes with early success, but see it as a creative challenge rather than a burden.

4. Inside the Recording & Creative Process

• Recording Small Talk in Oregon:
  • Chose a low-pressure, DIY approach by building a studio in an "old airplane hangar" on Max’s dad’s property (13:09).
  • “If you don't get a song done in one day, you start being like, man, I just wasted so much money ... It felt so nice to just be like ... Okay, we're going to bring like, you know, the people that we trust the most...” — Julian (14:33)
• Producing & Engineering Themselves:
  • Longtime collaborator Ziad Isra did most of the engineering—mixing got “heated” with “sonic philosophies butting heads,” but they navigated it by stripping back arrangements and focusing on essentials (16:41).
  • "Every time that we hit a wall ... we literally took something out of the arrangement in order to get past it." — Max (16:41)
• Songwriting Dynamic:
  • A fully collaborative process with blurred lines between who writes what.
  • "At the end of the day, I don't think any of us ever leave a song being like, I wrote this and you wrote that. It's just kind of. The song is like a Whitney song at that point." — Julian (23:15)

5. Emotional Core of Small Talk

• Dual Breakups as Creative Fuel:
  • Both Max and Julian wrote through recent, simultaneous breakups—some brought on or complicated by the pandemic and long-distance relationships.
  • “It was kind of like, brought me out of being so sad because it was, like, laughing at myself...sincere lyrics, but also something tongue in cheek about them.” — Julian (19:00–20:51)
  • “We’re very much aware that we've, like, written a ton of breakup songs and... we're never necessarily trying to just write a breakup record. And I don't really think that we did either.” — Max (18:06)
• Highlight: Song "Darling" evolved as “a funny breakup song” that helped Julian process his emotions by oscillating between sincerity and self-deprecating humor (20:05–20:51).

6. Musical Influences and Philosophies

• The Band as North Star:
  • “The band has just literally, it's been probably the main through line when it comes to influence with Whitney.” — Max (25:09)
• Other Influences:
  • Nick Drake, Jim Ford, Zambian rock (Zamrock), Neil Young.
  • Songs pieced together from varied influences—"verse sounds like Aminaz, chorus sounds like Neil Young with an orchestra" (25:27–26:30).
• Favorite Band Member Debate:
  • Max: “It's Levon or Garth Hudson, I think for me." (28:47)
  • Julian: “Robbie sucks, but his guitar sounds sick... as a recorded artifact, [he's] pretty tight." (28:54)
• On Bob Dylan:
  • Both are huge fans—“Planet Waves” and “Oh Mercy” get special mentions.
  • “Oh Mercy is number one.” — Max (30:29)
  • “Most of the Time is like... at least a 15 to 20 year chunk of my life.” — Max (30:37)
  • Dylan’s tumultuous recording process for “Oh Mercy” inspires Max (31:38).

7. Life, Touring, and Chicago

• The band still identifies with and appreciates the supportive, ego-less Chicago music scene even as members branch out and others move away (34:46–38:02).
• Shout-outs to fellow musicians: Macy Stewart, Namdi, Liam Kazar.
• Recent loss of Pitchfork Festival is felt as a blow to the local ecosystem.

8. Whitney and Basketball (NBA)

• Max and Julian are fans (with Julian from a Bears family and Max a Blazers fan). Ian is an “LA Lakers guy.”
• Good-natured and deeply informed NBA talk spanning Bulls mediocrity, Lakers ownership, vibes, and why basketball is the “indie rock” sport (39:05–46:43).
  • “It is like a beautiful, free-flowing game when I think it's played correctly. But just even on a style level, it's hard to not appreciate it.” — Max (46:32)
  • Stories of watching NBA games stoned and syncing song ideas to slow-motion highlights.

9. Touring the New Record

• Upcoming “intimate album release shows” playing Small Talk front-to-back for the first time.
• Future full tour planned, ahead of which they’re allowing time for the record to “marinate.”
• Special Australian dates in addition to US and Europe.
• On setlists: Some Spark songs are difficult to adapt due to instrumentation differences but open to perhaps reimagining them live (52:15).

10. Favorite Tracks on Small Talk & Gear Talk

• All three agree "In the Saddle" and "Islands" are favorites (54:02–54:57).
  • “That guitar... kind of swooning guitar melody... gets me every single time. That's such a Great vibe.” — Ian (54:12)
  • “My favorite moment on the record is Max's sort of like frippy sounding Ebo guitar solo.” — Julian (55:04)
• Introduction of pedal steel to their sound for the first time—both excited and wary of the “indie pedal steel trend” (56:22–58:51).
  • “Pedal steel is becoming so ubiquitous ... we just don’t want to overuse any textures.” — Max (57:18)
  • “With great power comes great responsibility. If you're gonna put pedal steel on your record, you better know how to use the pedal steel big time.” — Julian (58:51)

Notable Quotes & Moments with Timestamps

• “We've lived together for the last, like, 12 years or something...And, you know, we've released three…records throughout that span, so we've kind of, like, seen it all.” — Max (03:09)
• “During the Spark writing process … we were…pretty uninspired by…our, like, kind of chosen avenues of instrumentation…How can we just, like, completely shake this up?” — Julian (06:42)
• “At the end of the day, I don’t think any of us ever leave a song being like, I wrote this and you wrote that. It’s just…the song is like a Whitney song at that point.” — Julian (23:15)
• “I just feel like maybe my favorite moment on the record is Max's sort of like frippy sounding Ebo guitar solo.” — Julian (55:04)
• “Pedal steel is becoming so ubiquitous…I just don’t want that instrument to become like such a…bad Trojan horse.” — Max (57:02)

Important Segments & Timestamps

| Segment | Timestamp | |-------------------------------------------|---------------| | Living/Roommate dynamic, band longevity | 03:02 – 04:47 | | Spark as a “Pandemic Record” | 06:42 – 09:33 | | Pressure of ‘No Woman’ | 09:33 – 11:47 | | Recording Small Talk in Oregon | 13:05 – 14:57 | | Producing/mixing themselves | 15:37 – 17:39 | | The “emotional” songwriting (breakups) | 18:06 – 20:51 | | Songwriting collaboration philosophy | 21:43 – 23:39 | | Musical influences—The Band, Nick Drake | 25:09 – 27:10 | | Favorite Band member discussion | 28:04 – 29:08 | | Bob Dylan tangents, top 3 albums | 29:21 – 32:34 | | Chicago scene & community shout-outs | 34:31 – 38:02 | | NBA extended conversation | 39:05 – 48:20 | | Tour plans, playing the new record live | 48:20 – 53:10 | | “In the Saddle” & “Islands” discussion | 54:00 – 55:57 | | Pedal steel/indie trend debate | 56:09 – 58:51 |

Tone & Language

The conversation maintains Whitney’s well-known laid-back, unpretentious, and affable vibe, mixing self-awareness with sincerity and their characteristic dry wit. The tone is equal parts reflective and mischievous, with plenty of in-jokes, deep musical knowledge, and joyful asides on everything from heartbreak to basketball.

Final Shout-Out

• Special thanks/shout-outs to Anna, Whitney’s manager and fan of the podcast.

This episode is a warm, generous, and substantial check-in with one of indie rock’s most quietly reliable bands, offering insight into their process, influences, and friendship as they embark on a new chapter. Whether you’re a die-hard Whitney fan, a fellow Dylan obsessive, or just here for the Bulls chat, there’s something engaging for every listener.