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- [00:00]
Ian
Welcome back to Jokerman in Conversation. I'm Ian today speaking to Meg Duffy, better known as the artist behind Hand Habits, who is back today already last week with first record in a couple years, Blue Reminder, just written up and profiled in the New York Times. Actually, as I'm recording this intro here, Megan and I actually spoke a few weeks ago in July sometime. So you'll hear some slightly outdated references to fourth of July and other things like that in our conversation, but the general subject matter here as relevant as ever. Excellent, you know, excellent record. New, you know, kind of bigger, broader sound for Hand Habits. A great, a great, you know, guitar record, frankly makes one of the, you know, know most killer guitar players you'll see these days. Often playing in the Perfum genius band, which we talk about a little bit and obviously then helming their own solo project here. But there's also a new, I don't know, delicacy, lightness, openness, optimism, easy beauty to a lot of this music, which I think is, as you'll hear in this conversation, Meg tends to chalk up to the state of love that they happen to find themselves in today. Great chat about a great record even in these less than great circumstances in our present day reality. Here's Meg.
- [02:05]
Poetry/lyrics voice
Didn'T let tell you, but I ca let it by letter. I typed her name.
- [02:25]
Ian
We were just talking off mic a moment ago. So you're coming from Los Angeles, right? What? What? I'm from Los Angeles. I guess I should say so. What? What General. You don't need to dox yourself, but what general vicinity in the city?
- [02:38]
Meg Duffy
The northeastern side.
- [02:40]
Ian
Northeastern side, sure. I. I feel that. So up, you know, Highland Park. Eagle Rock, you know, the General?
- [02:47]
Meg Duffy
Pretty much. Eagle Rock.
- [02:48]
Ian
Yeah, Eagle Rock. Word.
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Meg Duffy
I can see the Eagle's Rock.
- [02:52]
Ian
Okay. Wow. Okay. How's. How's it feeling up there? You know, in the wake of the.
- [02:58]
Meg Duffy
Altadena shit, I mean, it feels like we're far from it energetically where I live, but you know, a lot of friends lost all of their houses and so that I. When I'm with those friends, it doesn't feel very far away at all. Yeah, the air, the air was better. And then, you know, fourth of July, as you know, here is crazy. I don't know, like in the Bay too. Is, is it crazy too in the city?
- [03:29]
Ian
In San Francisco, it's, it's pretty, you know, relatively crazy. But I mean, nothing compares to what happens in Los Angeles. You just go up there, you know, to Griffith or something, and it just seems like the Entire fucking city is like explode. Like just a powder keg just constantly exploding for five hours straight.
- [03:46]
Meg Duffy
Pretty intense. Like, I feel like. Yeah, in current political climate, it definitely felt kind of scarier.
- [03:55]
Ian
Yes.
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Meg Duffy
And the air here was just as bad as it was like during the fires the day after.
- [04:02]
Ian
Jesus.
- [04:03]
Meg Duffy
Which is so fucked up. I will say. I did shoot off some bottle rockets.
- [04:10]
Ian
Listen, I mean, if the air's. The air's going to be fucked anyways, so might as well get a little bit of enjoyment out of it, right?
- [04:16]
Meg Duffy
It was really fun.
- [04:18]
Ian
That's great.
- [04:18]
Meg Duffy
It was. It was worth it, even though I was contributing. So I can't really say, you know.
- [04:24]
Ian
You know, who among us is innocent. Yeah, yeah. I was at a Dodger game a couple of weeks ago and they're doing these things now. Like, they used to do Friday night fireworks after the game and now they're doing the drone shows, you know.
- [04:36]
Meg Duffy
Oh, is that like with the synchronized drone?
- [04:38]
Ian
Exactly. Yeah. And like, it's kind of cool to see at least they're doing. They got like people doing like the LA Dodgers logo with their hand. It's like, fun, but like. And like, from an environmental standpoint, obviously way better than fireworks. But also it's like, all right, I don't know about this. Seems a little weak.
- [04:54]
Meg Duffy
It's like, good for the environment, but they're also training them to be better war drone pilots.
- [05:01]
Ian
Exactly.
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Meg Duffy
During the Dodgers halftime show.
- [05:04]
Ian
Yeah, it's part of the AI training system for Palantir drone warfare. Jesus. Well, we're not here to talk about too much miserable shit. Although I guess you kind of can't help but talk about that type of stuff when you talk about anything these days.
- [05:20]
Meg Duffy
And if you're interviewing me, it's like, listen, that's.
- [05:24]
Ian
You're speaking my. You're speaking my language, then. We're on the same wavelength here. Here to talk about you hand habits. Back with a new, new record after, what has it been, two, three years at this point?
- [05:38]
Meg Duffy
Well, so a lot of people didn't count what I counted as my last record as a record. You know, there are people out there who call it an ep. I don't fully understand the difference or, like, why there's even a distinction at this point in time, the specifics, but I have a lot of thoughts about that. But that sugar, the bruise came out in 2023, so this. Yeah, two years ago. And my last full length record came out, I think, in 2021. So.
- [06:07]
Ian
Sorry. Early pandemic or like, I guess, you know, classic Pandemic era. We're far enough away at this point we can refer to it like that. Maybe that's a good point. I didn't have a question about that. But I would love to hear any thought, like, EP versus L. Because I, you know, I don't. A record is a record to me, I guess especially today when like, most people aren't even consuming it as a record. You know, it seems like weird to draw that distinction and say, like, oh, it's the first hand Habits, full album in fort. Like, that seems unfair almost.
- [06:39]
Meg Duffy
Yeah, who cares? I. I really, like, at a certain point I was like, is this the hill I'm gonna die on? You know, my publicist and like, with, you know, everyone who's like, it's under. I think it's like, if it's under 27 minutes or something, it's an EP, but I don't even remember. But I'm like, I literally took all the best songs that I could possibly find and got rid of the bad ones and put those on a record.
- [07:05]
Ian
That sounds like the exact kind of record that I want to listen to. All killer. No filler.
- [07:09]
Meg Duffy
Filler. I cut the filler. There's no filler. I contractually was not allowed to put the filler on. So, you know, I also. If something's going to be printed on a 12 inch vinyl or like cut to a 12 inch vinyl.
- [07:27]
Ian
Yeah, it's a record, it's a record, Easy as that.
- [07:31]
Meg Duffy
And it's maybe just a short record. Just call it a short record.
- [07:35]
Ian
Yeah, I mean, some of the best records of my favorite records, you know, old school records, they used to be, you know, 28 minutes and it was, you know, 10 songs over two sides, you know, less than a half an hour. That's. That's all you need.
- [07:47]
Meg Duffy
That sounds amazing.
- [07:49]
Ian
That's what. But like, on, like the streaming services, you know, I know, like on Spotify, I think. Don't they even sort what they consider eps into like a different section of your page?
- [07:59]
Meg Duffy
Yes.
- [08:00]
Ian
That's fucked.
- [08:01]
Meg Duffy
It's. I don't. I think it should go away. Especially when, you know, streaming gatekeepers are like, we want singles to push.
- [08:13]
Ian
Yeah.
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Meg Duffy
And I'm like, here's a thought. Like I. I put all the singles in one place for you. And then. But they're like, no, we don't want that, but we'll take the record. The record's good too. And I'm like, but you didn't even listen to the whole record. You only listen to the single. So it just, it didn't make any sense to me. But yeah, that came out in 2023 and this one's, you know, my first record.
- [08:39]
Ian
First Spotify approved full album in X number. Damned if you do, you're damned if you don't. You know, it's. It's like. And especially with like, algorithms are changing so frequently and like, you know, now there's the fucking AI bands showing up there and stuff.
- [08:54]
Meg Duffy
Like, it's crazy.
- [08:55]
Ian
Yeah, it's pretty wild. Like, the less, I mean, I say this not as a working musician who needs to make my life, you know, through the music that I play and record, but like, it seems to me the less you try to focus on that and optimize for whatever the random, you know, order of the day is from whatever random fucking app. Like, you know, the more healthy your brain is going to be.
- [09:18]
Meg Duffy
Definitely. Yeah. I am always trying to think less about that, but, you know, we have to interface with it.
- [09:27]
Ian
You can't not. Yeah, especially these days.
- [09:29]
Meg Duffy
But thankfully no one on my team is like, you need to be more streamable. I feel like they. With my last record, they're like, I don't think you're gonna be more streamable. I think like a house music song about a statue in Berlin. That's not what the kids are wanting right now. I'm like, but it's colonial, so we can, we can talk about it. They're like, yeah, just keep making your artwork.
- [09:51]
Ian
Right. Well, who knows? Maybe you'll get the. The Dead Rat dance going on TikTok this time around in the movie.
- [09:57]
Meg Duffy
You want to make it.
- [10:00]
Ian
I gotta come up with the right hand movements in the first. For first. Well, yeah, you know, on the note of the new record, Blue Reminder, which is out, I think now or soon, depending on when this episode comes out.
- [10:14]
Meg Duffy
Oh, okay. Right.
- [10:15]
Ian
Yeah. Yes. We're taping this in the past. Coming to you from the past in the future. Yeah, it's. It's pretty sick, I gotta say. I feel like there's a bigger. There's a bigger, louder sound, for lack of a better term. It seems equally well suited for outdoor amphitheater type performances as much as a couple.
- [10:37]
Meg Duffy
Get me in there.
- [10:38]
Ian
Yeah.
- [10:39]
Meg Duffy
In the amphitheaters, you know.
- [10:42]
Ian
How has the hand habit sound? How do you conceive of the way the hand habit sound has developed?
- [10:48]
Meg Duffy
I just wanted to make more of a band record and take my time and make something that. Because I think with Sugar, the Bruise, it was just such an experiment for me and it was kind of Scattered. I didn't, I wasn't. It didn't. It did feel like I was making something, but it didn't feel the same as making like a record in the sense that we're talking about now. It didn't feel like making an ep but like I. For the record. But I did, I didn't. I was like writing a lot in the studio for that record and. And there was a lot of improvisation and experimentation, like in the studio with Luke Temple. Like we wrote some of those songs together and I. It was kind of born out of a writing retreat, kind of almost up in the bay at Panoramic, which doesn't exist anywhere. Well, yeah, yeah, But I feel like with this record I just, I wanted to. I wanted to go a little bit bigger, I guess, in terms of production and, and the last full length record I made was yes, during Pandemic. And I made it at my house with Kyle Thomas and Sesame Ashworth producing. And, you know, we were limited in what we could do because we could only have like one person and recording at a certain. At a time.
- [12:10]
Ian
Sure.
- [12:11]
Meg Duffy
You know. Yeah. And so this was it. I wanted to make like a proper studio record. And I've been playing music with the same people now for more or less for the past like five to seven years, depending on some of them. And most of the players on my record, specifically, Tim Carr playing drums, Pat Kelly playing bass, Greg Ullman playing guitar, Allen Wife was playing keys and piano and all that stuff. We all play in Perfume Genius as well.
- [12:43]
Ian
Right.
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Meg Duffy
And so we've kind of developed this, this musical language together and there's a telepathy there, I think, with playing just with the same kinds of same people for, you know, an extended period of time. And I haven't had that in a while, like going into making a record because I joined Perfume Genius, like it was the beginning of 2020 and then we didn't tour but we did rehearse and so, yeah, I just, I feel like now it really feels like my LA record in some ways too. Which, you know, for some people who live in LA their whole life, every record's an LA record.
- [13:21]
Ian
Yeah.
- [13:23]
Meg Duffy
But for me, I mean, even though I've made. I made Funhouse in la, it was just my at home record and, and this one, I feel like I've, you know, I've lived in L. A now for going on 11 years and I have really like grown to know and love the community of musicians who live here and it's such an amazing place for music and there's so many incredibly talented players here that I am fortunate enough to play with. And with this record, I wanted to really incorporate, like, just that. Just the sense of that, you know, not like a wrecking crew. It's like these guys who I've been playing with for a long time and have really, like, shaped at least my sense of rhythm and like. Yeah. And so the recording process, the way you're hearing, louder and bigger, like Joseph Lord, who produced it, he. I've. He's mixed some stuff for me before, but we've never worked together in this sense before. And I really trust him. And he saw what I was trying to go for, too.
- [14:31]
Ian
Word. You had a couple or have a couple other names in the credits, at least that jump out to me. I know we said we're not gonna do too much Bob Dylan talk here, but Blake Mills, who obviously worked on the last Bob Dylan record, he seems to be everywhere these days. Was this the first time you've recorded with him?
- [14:53]
Meg Duffy
No. Blake's been a good friend of mine now for a long time and kind of a mentor in a sense to me. He's the reason why I joined Perfume Genius, pretty much. Well, yeah. When they were looking for a new band, I think he threw my name in the hat and really vouched for me. And he's been incredibly just helpful with all things for me, and I deeply respect him. Obviously, his musicians do. Ship is incredible. And he's a good friend and is really not ever. He never hesitates to, like, help me figure something out, whether it's like a, you know, tuning or like a voicing thing or with some gear stuff. And we've worked together a little bit on some stuff. Like, I've. I sang on his record, his last record. Just like, a little bit.
- [15:43]
Ian
Jelly Road.
- [15:44]
Meg Duffy
Yeah. Yeah. I sang on the song Breakthrough Moon.
- [15:47]
Ian
Oh, word.
- [15:48]
Meg Duffy
And that's a great record. Yeah, I love that record. Yeah.
- [15:52]
Ian
Skeleton is Walking, man. That. The guitar solo on that is just, like, major.
- [15:57]
Meg Duffy
Well, so my old roommate, Kyle Thomas, AKA King. Tough. I don't know if you're.
- [16:02]
Ian
Oh, yeah, sure.
- [16:02]
Meg Duffy
Yeah. His best friend, Chris Wiseman, was staying with us while they were making Jelly Road. So I got to see a lot of the behind the scenes of that. And Sick. I remember when they were making that song. Wendy Melbourne, you know, the namesake. Yeah. And. And I. There's a demo recording of Chris playing that on the piano. And in the demo recording, you can hear me downstairs in the same house working on my music.
- [16:34]
Ian
It's pretty cool song within A song?
- [16:36]
Meg Duffy
Yeah. I don't know if the demo ever got released. Maybe he released on a substack or something. But anyway, yeah, Blake and I, he. We'd never worked on my music before. I've worked on perfume genius stuff with him. And. And there was this song, Bluebird of Happiness, that he is on that. Originally, when I started. When I made that song, I thought it was going to be kind of just like a pretty, like, folky, almost like John Renbourny kind of thing. Pentangle, John Renbourne, but, like, kind of. I don't know, it was just pretty. It was like very folky, like sort of Spanish influenced, like, with all the frills and stuff. And you can kind of hear it in the. In where the recording ended up. But there's. We were. I tracked it with. It was me and Greg playing it solo. And then we added, like, upright bass. And in the context of the record, Joseph and I were like, this isn't working. Like, this isn't a folk record. You know, that's not. It felt like an outlier, and it felt like it was just like, okay, here's the folk song, like, on the record. Right.
- [17:49]
Ian
Just checking the box type of thing.
- [17:51]
Meg Duffy
Yeah. And it. And I played a show, actually, it was a benefit for the Hollywood Food Coalition a couple years ago, like, while in the middle of making the record. And I asked Blake to play with me because he was on the bill too. And I was like, do you want to sit in? And it was me, Blake, and my friend Danny Aged, who plays bass on the record on a couple too. And amazing, amazing bass player. I don't know how I've tricked all these musicians into playing with me. It's pretty fun. But we played as a trio and we played that song Bluebird of Happiness, but I didn't. I never bring acoustic with me to a live show. I just feel like it barely ever sounds good. I can't. And I don't want to risk flying. And so often songs that are acoustic, I just play an electric whatever. And Blake was playing electric and we played the song and it was like, so. Like much more rock and roll. And Joseph was there, who produced the record. And so Joseph worked with Blake for, like, 12 years at sound City. He was his. And he was like. After the show, he was like, I think we need to rerecord that song.
- [19:01]
Ian
Oh, wow.
- [19:02]
Meg Duffy
And I was like, all right, let's do it. Because playing it, it just like, had such a. And Blake has such a specific pocket. Like, he. He. His sense of Rhythm is, like, unparalleled in my opinion, and Joseph and I couldn't really crack it. And we kind of got close, but then Blake listened to some of the mixes and he actually wrote to me and he was like, you know, amazing job. Like, I'm so excited for this record. He's like, in the classic Blake fashion, actually. He was like, I do have some thoughts. And I was like, okay. Like, what are they? And Bloober, he was like, I have. I keep hearing this thing for the first, basically, half of Bluebird of Happiness up until where the, like, guitarmany break comes in. And I don't even know if this song is out yet for those of you listening. So either you have something forward to look to look. You have something to look forward to, or you already know what I'm talking about and you love the song and you've listened to it a hundred times in a row.
- [20:03]
Ian
Is that him at the, like, the very beginning? That.
- [20:07]
Meg Duffy
It's actually like we. He first played it on, like, an organ.
- [20:14]
Ian
Okay.
- [20:15]
Meg Duffy
And so it's just like single notes. And then he double tracked that.
- [20:18]
Ian
Sure.
- [20:19]
Meg Duffy
Then him and I are both a kind of like, wormholed. I'm a little. Not in this mode right now anymore, but we both wormholed on, like, synth guitar stuff. And I, like, got really into learning Ableton over this last, like, two years and. And kind of found some fun things that I like to do with it using the guitar. And. And so we sampled one of his guitar stabs that he did. He did, like one stab. And then I actually played it with my guitar, but as a sample, so. Because he kept wanting. He wanted it to be, like, really robotic. And so they're actually samples in the beginning. But then, yeah, he added some, like, really nice, like, like sludgy kind of bends and stuff and added something to the guitar mini that I had.
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Ian
Very sick.
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Meg Duffy
It was really fun.
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Ian
Yeah, it sounds great. I mean, that. That sounds like a. Like a very detailed process to get to that. That one, like, sound, but like that of.
- [21:21]
Meg Duffy
In a nutshell.
- [21:49]
Poetry/lyrics voice
Blue bird of happiness Way upon your balcony Hum along a melody so strong Fly away with your wind Spread like a halo it the only thing keeping me holy.
- [22:28]
Ian
Well, great song and, you know, great work from you and Blake both. You. You brought him up a moment ago also, I guess Daniel Aged who shows up here, which I was so stoked to see his name show up because, like, I mean, I guess I don't even know how many people are familiar with, but, like, his original Band Teen Inc. Which later became Ink with his brother. Yeah, exactly, Andrew. I was so stoked on that. Like in 2012, 2013 or something. I remember I saw him at this venue, doesn't even exist anymore, but the chapel on York. Oh, wow.
- [23:01]
Meg Duffy
Yeah, I remember that.
- [23:02]
Ian
In Highland Park. Yeah. It was like a total fire trap. They shut it down after a couple years. But one of the great shows I saw there. Exactly. Probably make some more. Probably make more money off of doing that than playing shows anyways, I guess. I mean, I just like, not. Not a sound or a collaborator. Excuse me? Collaborator. I would have expected, you know, on a handheld record necessarily, but totally works. How'd you got, like. It's just like how you guys link.
- [23:28]
Meg Duffy
Played on Funhouse too. Oh, wow.
- [23:30]
Ian
Okay.
- [23:30]
Meg Duffy
Like the bass player pretty much primarily on Funhouse. My record.
- [23:34]
Ian
Be looking at the credits more.
- [23:36]
Meg Duffy
You know, you really should because you learn a lot there. I love looking at credits. And it's like the one. One of the many things actually I hate about Spotify is like on Tidal, if you look at every song, like there's credits and you can like, click on the players if they have more than one credit. And I've been really into untidal, like, going to see who the bass player is on, you know, like, what did. I was forget who it was. I was like listening to Dan, Daniel and Wa record.
- [24:06]
Ian
Sure.
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Meg Duffy
And like, I was like, oh, who's playing drums? And then like clicking on that. And you can make a playlist just from the players, which I think is.
- [24:13]
Ian
Oh, wow.
- [24:14]
Meg Duffy
Awesome feature for deep diving. Anyway, Danny and I, I just was a huge fan of his and I love his playing so much. And we were kind of in. We have a lot of. A lot of mutual friends. I don't actually remember how I. We were introduced, but we followed each other on social media. And then when I was making Funhouse, I was just like, oh, do you want to come plan my record? Like we've never met in person. And he said, yeah. And that was that. And it was really awesome. And he's. He's incredible. I was actually right before the. We started talking today, I was looking at here in the past. I have a song coming out tomorrow that would be out when you're listening to this. But my Phil, who engineered the record, had all these. Got all these videos of us playing the song that Jasmine Blossoms.
- [25:12]
Ian
That was one of the ones like, yeah, I can totally like it sounds. You know, I hear very much the Ink type of influence on that.
- [25:20]
Meg Duffy
Totally. Yeah. His playing is Amazing. And his as of like, we've done a lot of stuff together. He also played bass on the this song, this Kate Bush cover I did with Bill Callahan. And yeah, I love his instincts and musically. And he's such a sweetie too. Crazy, crazy bass player. I mean, I. I remember I bought a fretless bass from him. Like he was selling this fretless and I was like, I can. Like I'm watching his hands, like, I.
- [25:46]
Ian
Know I can do that.
- [25:48]
Meg Duffy
And then I'm like, I can't. I'm selling this. I don't.
- [25:50]
Ian
I can't do that.
- [25:53]
Meg Duffy
It's going to take me like 20 years to be able to do that.
- [25:56]
Ian
I remember the. I mean, just like it was some of the most. Just impressive. Just like. Like not even. I was gonna say showmanship, but that's wrong. Just like, just like perfection, you know, Musical savant type shit. When I saw them, like, man, just. I guess, I mean, he's getting plenty of work and making records, like in studios and stuff. I just. I guess I think there's only the one Ink record. Or maybe there's two or something.
- [26:23]
Meg Duffy
Two? Yeah, I think there's two. Yeah.
- [26:26]
Ian
Great musicians. On the note of collaborators and stuff also. I mean, you know, we've been talking about some of your collaborators and stuff. I don't think I've actually seen a Handhabbit show, but I know I've seen you live in many other contexts, I think initially, like in Kevin morby's band, like 10 years ago, 12 years ago or something. And then I remember I saw you playing in Sylvan Esso at the Beacon one time at one of those. Yeah, one of those, like, Sylvanesso and Friends shows. Yeah. And then I saw. I was at that aging hipster music festival down there a couple weeks ago on the hottest day in the world, you know, when Perfume Genius was playing at like 2:00 clock or something. Direct sun on everyone.
- [27:14]
Meg Duffy
That was wild.
- [27:16]
Ian
Seemed maybe not the most pleasant stage setup.
- [27:20]
Meg Duffy
I actually had a lot of fun. We were in the shade. If we were getting beat down by the sun, I think it would have been really hard.
- [27:28]
Ian
But I guess I was getting beat down.
- [27:29]
Meg Duffy
Everybody looks miserable looking out into the crowd. Like, I was like, I can't believe these people are even here.
- [27:36]
Ian
It's pretty brutal. Anyways, like, so. So, you know, you have sort of established this pretty unique position, I think, in this ecosystem where like, you're kind of. You're a solo artist on your own or, you know, a leader of a project. I should say, but then also like kind of a go to collaborator in a bunch of different other places. And I know you're not necessarily playing with Kevin or anything at the moment, but just how have you kind of pursued this dual track as both like your own solo work as well as kind of a cog in a larger machine?
- [28:15]
Meg Duffy
I mean, when I first started playing music, like, I never thought I would be a songwriter. I always. The sort of driving force behind all things music in my life has always been guitar and just. And playing with other people. And I kind of like cut my teeth as it were, playing in, like, when I lived in upstate New York, I played in so many bands. Like, at one point I was playing like 10 bands and I was just trying to play every different kind of music because I just wanted to play and learn how to be adaptable in all these different settings. And, you know, I moved to LA and was like, wait, everybody's really good. Like, oh, they all went to like arts high school and I didn't even know that that existed. They like their, you know, dad is Jackson Brown or whatever. Like, it's. It's just such a different. It's not like that in upstate New York at all.
- [29:15]
Ian
Where, where in upstate?
- [29:17]
Meg Duffy
I'm from Amsterdam, New York. It's outside of Albany. Like, like 40 minutes.
- [29:21]
Ian
Okay, sure. So along the Hudson.
- [29:23]
Meg Duffy
Yeah. Wife's from the Mohawk. Where the Hudson goes up and then the Mohawk goes this way and then it's over here.
- [29:30]
Ian
Got it. My wife's from the Binghamton area, if you're familiar with that at all.
- [29:34]
Meg Duffy
So, yeah, I went to hardcore shows there.
- [29:37]
Ian
Worked.
- [29:38]
Meg Duffy
Yeah, but, yeah, and so I. I had always played in other people's bands and then I think, you know, at a certain point I wrote a song and it didn't feel like. It didn't feel like it was going to change my life or anything, you know, And I was really, really shy and I was never really that confident with singing. And honestly, only just with this last record did I have like an okay time tracking vocals, like, sing. I haven't spent my life developing, like, my vocal performance as a singer. Yeah, definitely. And I. And I still. It's weird because there are a lot of people who just. They don't even know about the guitar side of stuff that I do and they don't care. You know, a lot of people don't care about that sort of thing. And. Yeah, and so I have a lot of, like. I'm a little shy with being a singer and I don't even always even feel like a singer, even though that is what I'm doing all the time or most of the time. And yeah, I don't know, I just. I made one record and when I was playing with Kevin Morby's band, I had a couple of songs. I wrote songs a long time ago and then kind of scrapped them and then was like, I'm not going to pursue that. It just seems too vulnerable or like too challenging. And I didn't have stage fright, but I just. I didn't have confidence at all. And then I made these recordings on my own. I kind of had a. I was like, maybe I'll start to make songs again. And it was kind of through the vehicle of recording at home. And long story short, woods wanted to put out my first record.
- [31:27]
Ian
Yeah, I remember. Great record.
- [31:28]
Meg Duffy
Thank you. Yeah, it's like my. My voice is like an octave higher. It's listening to it the other day and I was like, who. Who is she? Like, at all. But I. Yeah, I didn't even have enough songs to make a full record when Jeremy was like, we want to put a record out. And so I wrote a couple more and then it kind of just like happened to keep, like, people kept being interested and I feel really fortunate for that. And, you know, it's definitely. I definitely never thought that hand habits would, like, occupy this much space in my life. Like, I always thought it would be like, oh, I made that one record, and then like, maybe I'll make another one. But people keep wanting me to make songs and I have like this weird. I have this weird complex about it, kind of. And I think it is. It is a really fortunate. I know how fortunate it is though, because so many of my songwriter friends don't have the ability or the opportunity to like, go gig, like, with people and, you know, they don't have the privilege, I guess, of like, their other job isn't music. Which I don't think there's a hierarchy about that at all. And, you know, sometimes I wonder if it's actually better to have a job that's not in music if you are making songs, because then you're not, you know, your subconscious can do the work when you're at those other jobs. But yeah, I don't know. Here we are. That's how it happened, I guess.
- [33:09]
Ian
And gradually and then suddenly.
- [33:12]
Meg Duffy
Yeah. And I. And I really think both of them inform the other.
- [33:16]
Ian
Sure.
- [33:17]
Meg Duffy
And. And, you know, my records aren't. I feel like Blue Reminder is the most, like, guitar showcasey and it's like, barely that. Like, I don't even think there's actually, like, us. There's like, maybe one solo, and I think it's kind of understated. And. And I. I have always kind of kept those two personalities pretty separate, and I don't really know why. I think they've always just occupied such a different role for me. Does that make sense?
- [33:50]
Ian
Yeah. Yeah, it's. I mean, it's kind of a fascinating concept to me because, like, I feel. I feel like a lot of, you know, people working in the quote unquote, indie rock world, for lack of a better term. It's like you're just like, in the band and then it comes together, you know, at one point or, you know, you make a record and then you go out on tour for nine months, 12 months or whatever, and then you, like, kind of just go away for 2, 3 years, write your song, maybe trade emails or whatever, and then kind of start the cycle over again. But, like, I don't know, from an outside perspective, at least to me, it seems like you're constantly kind of just like, here they're making your records, playing live with other people, playing live in your. You know, it's. It's kind of constant and fluid.
- [34:36]
Meg Duffy
I'm trying to be everywhere, you know, I feel like one thing for me wouldn't be enough to carry it all through.
- [34:44]
Ian
Sure.
- [34:46]
Meg Duffy
I like, you know, I love collaborating and I. And I also, like, love instrumental music. And so I just made another Duffy Ullman record, which is like, my guitar project with my friend Greg Allman, who plays in that band sml, and he was in Perfume Genius for a long time. And, you know, that is, like, as much of a part of me as. As like an indie songwriter or whatever. And honestly, like, I'm always rolling my eyes at, like, indie song. Like. Like, that's not what I am, but, like, I am that too. Like, I literally am that. Like. But not just that. No, I'm not just that, but I, you know, and I. And I'm always. I feel like with this record, like, I'm. It's the. Yeah, like I said, it's the closest I've gotten to like, integrating some of, like, the many realms that I find myself occupying. But I just got a tape machine, so I feel like that's gonna be the next thing, but I can't talk about the next thing. We're not even onto this thing.
- [35:50]
Ian
This thing hasn't even dropped as of. As of now. So is the band, like, is. Because you're Going out on tour, I think, in a couple months. Also is the Han Habits band. Just like Perfume Genius, minus Mike.
- [36:02]
Meg Duffy
It sounds like it was for a long time, but actually because Perfume Genius has a record out now. This.
- [36:08]
Ian
Another great record.
- [36:09]
Meg Duffy
It's amazing. And this is the first year where there's conflicts in the touring schedule, so I'm actually not doing some of their stuff. And I had to find a different band for this tour. It's this. The only person who's the same now is Patrick Kelly playing bass, and it's gonna be Sam KS playing drums and Jacob Ungerleiter playing keys and guitar and singing with me. We haven't even had one rehearsal yet, so.
- [36:41]
Ian
All right, well, I'm sure it's gonna work out.
- [36:43]
Meg Duffy
So.
- [36:43]
Ian
Four.
- [36:43]
Meg Duffy
Four piece, yeah. Four piece. Yeah. And I'm trying to actually, like, open it up a little bit more. That's like, my goal is, like, have there to be a little bit more, like. Yeah. And. And. And like, responding to each other. Because more and more, I. I just. I. It's never. And I learned this with this recent Perfume Genius tour that I just got home from. It's like, both impossible and, like, not as fun to play a record exactly how it is on the record.
- [37:23]
Ian
For sure.
- [37:24]
Meg Duffy
I say impossible just, like, in this. In with the circumstances that exist. Like, specifically, if you're a Perfume Genius, like, we would need, like, three guitar players all playing acoustic guitar. It's just not possible. Or tracks, which, like, that. We don't do that live. And I going on tour is becoming less and less about making money for most people.
- [37:50]
Ian
Right.
- [37:51]
Meg Duffy
And so I asked myself, why am I going on tour? It's like, oh, to celebrate this music and share it with people. But also, I want to have fun. I don't want to just recreate the record that people can listen to on their own. And so specifically with this group of people, we all like to open it up a bit. So I'm excited to see how that unfolds.
- [38:14]
Ian
Totally. Yeah, I feel that entirely. I mean, certainly as someone who spends a large part of my day just listening to, like, Bob Dylan bootleg recordings where he just fucks with his songs endlessly. You know, it's exciting and fun to listen to. And it's also like, a different thing, you know, like, live performance of music. You are, you know, playing the songs that you've recorded, but it's also like you're making them and kind of remaking them every night. So it doesn't. Doesn't really make sense to, like, you know, try to chart it note for note, the way that it sounds on the record, you know.
- [38:47]
Meg Duffy
My voice is also so much different now than like, like I said when I made my first record, like, sure, transitioning and so that like, it's just impossible. I wouldn't be able to sing any of those songs on the first record. I literally sing some of them an octave lower, which like, I don't have like a super low voice as you can hear. It probably doesn't even sound that much different to you. But in terms of singing, like my range has changed a lot. And so we're playing like some songs like a fifth down from them, I think. I also, like, it was transitioning but also just writing not for my range and like just kind of like singing at the tippy, tippy top of my range and like not really knowing how to sing. But yeah, I'm excited. I'm really excited and. And there's like some parts of the record that like are really like long and explorative and I'm excited to like see how they develop total. Try.
- [39:50]
Poetry/lyrics voice
To find the joy Harmonize your pain the ending of the western world we're the ones to blame Our bellies fill with care to find a little joy.
- [40:33]
Ian
On the note of. You mentioned a few minutes ago, like, songwriting, you know, you kind of got a complex about things a little bit. I caught this quote in the press packet where you said it's corny to write love songs, but also that the record is full of ostensible love songs at least. I wonder, as someone who loves love songs myself, what is your relationship to love songs? Why are they corny?
- [40:59]
Meg Duffy
I think it's just so like when you're writing about your own life, it's. It's really vulnerable and it's also just exposing and I feel like it can I. I find it really challenging to be sincere and also not like pastiche or overly self referential or cliche. And I remember taking. Actually, I don't. I was like being sarcastic. I don't think it's actually I love love songs, but you know, it takes confidence to write a love song.
- [41:38]
Ian
Sure.
- [41:39]
Meg Duffy
And being in love is literally an altered state of mind. Like when you're like in love.
- [41:45]
Ian
Chemically.
- [41:46]
Meg Duffy
Chemically, yeah. Like make you think that bad poetry is good. And I've definitely been there before, massively, embarrassingly. But I feel like the kind of love that I am in right now and have been in is a little bit more rooted in reality. And so I. I think when I Write a love song, too. It's. It's through my lens of just being sad, like, having. I don't know why. Just things go. I'm not a sad person, and I don't think I suffer from depression. I, like. But when I write music, I think that that's just the channel that I. I, like, really dug, like, pretty over the years. Like, pretty deep. And so even when I'm writing a love song, it's filtered through this, like, fear of, like, I don't want it to go away. I. I guess I remember taking this songwriting class through School of Song. Are you familiar with that?
- [42:54]
Ian
Yeah.
- [42:55]
Meg Duffy
Yeah. My friend Stephen in blue and I took Luke Temples and who I've worked with in the past, and he had a class on cliches and how powerful singing can make something like such a simple and cliche phrase just land really, really hard.
- [43:20]
Ian
Sure.
- [43:21]
Meg Duffy
And I wanted to not be. I didn't want to shy away from, like, saying something that was, like, sincere or literal or maybe cliche, like, I need you. Like, that can be on the page. Like, that might not hold up as much, but if you're singing it and, like, the music is. And I do. Not to take it back to Bob Dylan, but I do think he's really good at this, too.
- [43:47]
Ian
He sure is. We talk about this all the time. Like, you know, especially, you know, for what we sit here and do on the podcast usually is just like, look at these songs and talk about that. And, like, when you read. When you read words to a song, like, yeah, well, there's some gray lines and I want you. But, you know, it does come back to just that central, you know, statement, I want you so bad. When you're just talking about lyrics and reading them off the page on genius or whatever, they can sound corny or stupid or trite or bullshit, but, like, man, the way the song is crafted around it, that's the magic. That's what makes a song different than.
- [44:22]
Meg Duffy
Poetry, you know, I remember taking a poetry class. Elaine Khan, she's an amazing poet, and she teaches this poetry school. It's called. It's not a workshop, but it's basically a workshop.
- [44:33]
Ian
Sure.
- [44:33]
Meg Duffy
And I had never done anything like that. I didn't, like, go to English school where you critique it. And. And in songwriting, at least in, like, now I'm doing it more, but, you know, I don't know a lot of people who, like, share their song with someone and say, like, what do you think? And, like, how does this land to you? Like, I don't I think, like, in indie rock specifically, that's not happening. Do you know what I mean?
- [45:02]
Ian
Yeah.
- [45:03]
Meg Duffy
I don't think, like, you know, I don't know, like, I don't know. I just don't think that that's. I don't think, like, water from your eyes as being like, you know, will you listen to this song and, like, tell me how it lands?
- [45:17]
Ian
Right. Yeah. The workshop method of songwriting.
- [45:20]
Meg Duffy
Yeah, probably that's more like in the canon of, like, folk and like, you know, because it's so rooted and in, like, poetics and literature and like. And I. And also, like, we live in a society too, where, like, now it's like, oh, there's like. It's so cult of self and so you don't want help and, you know, anyway, I remember taking the. The class and it's super humbling to have somebody read something that you wrote on the page. And I'm used to playing it with the song, you know, like, I'm not used to writing it, just like, letting it kind of die on the page or like, in somebody reading it aloud.
- [45:59]
Ian
Right.
- [45:59]
Meg Duffy
And it made me realize how much, like, you know. Yeah. The context really is everything and. Yeah. And so it's. It's in like with Bob Dylan, like, that song I want you, it's like there's. Those lyrics couldn't exist without the, like, context.
- [46:16]
Ian
Without the sound. Absolutely.
- [46:17]
Meg Duffy
Without the song sound and without the other lyrics surrounding it that are, like, extremely, like, well thought out.
- [46:23]
Ian
Silver saxophone. Absolutely. Yeah. I could sit here and quote Bob Dylan lyrics at you all day. Do you have any. Do you have any influence? I know you said you weren't a huge Bob head initially. Do you have any, you know, influences as a songwriter? You feel.
- [46:38]
Meg Duffy
It's. I feel like it's always changing and. And lately it's been just like the people I'm playing music with.
- [46:44]
Ian
Sure.
- [46:45]
Meg Duffy
My friends and I feel like, you know, when you immerse yourself, I think one thing that is unique or interesting about my position where I have, like, a lot of experience playing with other people and. And touring with their music and. And not thinking about my own music for a really long time and then switching gears is, you know, if you immerse yourself in something for long enough, it's going to have an effect on.
- [47:13]
Ian
You and soaking it up like a sponge.
- [47:16]
Meg Duffy
Absolutely. And so I've been playing in Perfume genius for, like, I said, like, five years now. And I know that that has made its way into my writing, and I think Mike is an amazing lyricist. And it's. It's really profound to witness him up close, like, and his process and. And then other, like, sessions that I play on. I find myself, like, feeling inspired by them. And. I don't know, but I. I don't listen to. I go through, like, really long periods of not listening to any music. And right now, specifically, I am in a. And I think it's because I'm always playing it or, like, how to learn it or practice it or. But I am really in a mode right now where I need, like, lyric influence or something. I'm not. I'm not super lyric heavy right now.
- [48:14]
Ian
Sure.
- [48:14]
Meg Duffy
In terms of inspiration. But I did listen to after the Gold Rush yesterday, and I was like, these are amazing.
- [48:20]
Ian
Great record.
- [48:21]
Meg Duffy
Really? Obviously, so good. But when I'm stuck, I just go back to, like. I'll listen to Neil Young. I'll listen to Fleetwood Mac. Like, you know, I will go back to, like, a very. I'll listen to Jason Molina a lot. I think he's, like, a huge influence on. On my songwriting a lot. Yeah. And then, you know, as a player, I think I find it sometimes, like, boring to live in the, like, folk sort of realm, you know? And so for Blue Reminder, I was, like, listening to a lot of talk. Talk. I was listening to a lot of Blue Nile. I was listening to a lot of Talking Heads and, like, Tango in the Night was like.
- [49:10]
Ian
Oh, yeah.
- [49:10]
Meg Duffy
Yeah. I just. I was trying to.
- [49:13]
Ian
Little Lies.
- [49:14]
Meg Duffy
Oh, my God. So good.
- [49:15]
Ian
Banger.
- [49:16]
Meg Duffy
So good. Yeah. Yeah. But I was really listening to a lot. I have, like, a playlist somewhere I love, like, Fairport and, like, Sandy Denny and, you know. Yeah. I was trying to listen to band. To records that felt like there was, like, a. There were players and not just, like, a songwriter.
- [49:40]
Ian
Sure. With hired guns behind. Totally makes sense. Yeah. I guess I can hear. I can hear a little bit of those more disparate influences, now that you think about. Like, there's some, like. Like, the. Is that just. Is that a sample on Nubble, the.
- [49:57]
Meg Duffy
Piano thing or Alan playing it?
- [50:00]
Ian
W. Okay. Because that's. That's wild.
- [50:03]
Meg Duffy
No, I know when I have a video of him playing it, he actually broke it up into two hands, too. So, like, he would do, like, and then do. But, like, we recorded. He recorded, like, the Right Hand first and then the Left Hand first.
- [50:17]
Ian
Well, you're gonna be able to pull that off on stage.
- [50:19]
Meg Duffy
Well, I asked Jacob. I was like, do you think you can play that or. And he was like, I can play it. And I was like, all right, man. Great.
- [50:28]
Ian
Yeah. Trust. Trust. That's what. That's what a band's all about.
- [50:32]
Meg Duffy
Absolutely. It really is.
- [50:35]
Ian
Well, kind of along these lines, just, you know, influences and songwriting and making music. I wonder. And, you know, I mentioned this also, earlier, you know, just can't help but think about. Talk about, you know, kind of miserable shit occasionally. You know. This does seem like a potentially brighter outlook in some ways on this record. Definitely. Which I think obviously has something to do with the love aspect of things, love songs. At the same time, reality around us seems to be rapidly getting worse. And I don't know, I find it difficult in my own life to go through the days, like, getting constant New York Times push alerts of just, like. Just the worst news imaginable, like, seven times a day. And I'm just. You know, I do this. I just sit on the computer and talk to people. As an artist, you know, someone who's actually trying to, like, make art in this context, I wonder, like, how are you able to kind of compartmentalize and make a record that sounds like this while existing?
- [51:44]
Meg Duffy
I don't know. I'm honestly, really. I mean, it'll be interesting to listen to this when this comes out, because right now in July, I am preparing mentally to start getting into rehearsals. And.
- [51:57]
Ian
Sure.
- [51:58]
Meg Duffy
I have to tell you, like, I don't want to do it, and I blame you. I love it, and I know that I will love it, and it'll bring me and a lot of other people, hopefully joy. And I think that people need to have escape from, because my partner also, she's a psychiatrist, and I'm always like, is this what I should be doing? Like, should I be singing songs about you right now? Like, is that what the world needs? And. And she always says something that I think is important, which is that, you know, people go to shows for an escape from, like, the, like, horrors of reality, even if it's for a half an hour, 45 minutes. And. And I do think it is a really important part of, like, I'm not a. Like, I don't participate radically as nearly as much as I should.
- [52:51]
Ian
Sure.
- [52:52]
Meg Duffy
In terms of, like, fighting oppressors. But I do think that, you know, I think right now, specifically, in a. A time where the administration, like, wants trans people to stop existing and has, like, tried to make that more and more possible.
- [53:13]
Ian
Yeah.
- [53:14]
Meg Duffy
Like, I think that a record about, like, a trans person who's experiencing, like, joy and love actually is important for the people who are, like, there's no point. And I. You Know, and I felt this way before, too, when things weren't as bad and I made a record that's like, processing grief or something. I'm like, should I be spending all my time singing about, like, you know, suicide or something? Like. And. And even then, it's like people reach out and they're like, this really helped me get through this time in my life when this was happening. And. And I do think that that's like, the function of art too, in some ways. Like. And. And I actually think about. I, you know, I. Not to bring it back to Bob Dylan again, but by all means. I watched the biopic, obviously. Sure. I loved it.
- [54:05]
Ian
Great. Timothy Chalamet, you know, talented, talented actor.
- [54:08]
Meg Duffy
Did a great job.
- [54:09]
Ian
He nailed it.
- [54:11]
Meg Duffy
And I wish that I could. It was the first time that I wished I was Bob Dylan. I wish.
- [54:22]
Ian
Welcome to the club.
- [54:23]
Meg Duffy
Yeah. Harsh, harsh, harsh reality to not be him. But I. I wish that there were more songwriters that were taking risks politically in their lyrics and. Because you can. I mean, I know it's a movie, but it made me feel like, you know, that generation, the artists and like, you know, the bards, the singers of that generation, really did sort of make some difference.
- [54:54]
Ian
Absolutely.
- [54:55]
Meg Duffy
By, like, critiquing the way things were going. And I feel like with social media, like, it's so easy for everybody to just say something and, like, then forget about it. And. And, yeah, you know, I. I don't think that a lot of people know how to talk about what's happening right now, too.
- [55:19]
Ian
Sure.
- [55:21]
Meg Duffy
So. Yeah, but.
- [55:23]
Ian
And even when you do, like, when people that we're speaking right now, again, kind of early mid July, things that have most recently happened, like Kneecap or Bob Villain, you know, there's repercussions. Yeah, exactly. And their songs aren't even about, you know, the issues that they are bringing to the forefront. Obviously. They're just like, making just like the most, to me, just. And righteous kind of statements in general. And, like, visas are getting revoked, shows are getting canceled. I think one of the kneecap guys is getting investigated for, like, terrorism or it's like, fucking psycho, man.
- [56:00]
Meg Duffy
Yeah. And. And I know that. Yeah, like, our. I was at a dinner the other night, somebody was talking about how, like, you know, this administration is now figuring out that the way to, like, kind of, like, be relevant or control people is also, like, if you control the media and the art and, like, culture. And that's why so much of the right wing, like the Joe Rogans of the world, like, you know, they're controlling the culture, and then you control, like, a lot of the population. And I. I don't think that that's, like, my job as, like. I don't think that, like, my soul, when it was born, was born to be like a Bob Dylan, you know, like, poetic, political, like a John Prine. I just don't have that in me, like, inherently. And when I've tried to do it, it's turned into something weird. Like, I feel like also, it's hard to rebrand yourself as, like, that. Four records in, but, you know, we'll see how it feels to sing these, like, joyous songs. And I hope people can at least just, you know, find some sort of escape, even, like, briefly, you know.
- [57:21]
Ian
Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, to bring it back to Bob a little bit, you know, like, even if you were to go out and write a whole record full of protest songs or social justice songs or something like, you know, as admirable and important as that might b at the same, like, the culture was primed for it back then, you know, in a way that I don't feel like it is today. And so, like, that. Even if your heart is in the right place with that, I feel like you. Like, you. It's almost a fool's errand to try to work that way, you know, I think it is.
- [57:56]
Meg Duffy
And it needs to be more just, like, subconscious. I don't even really know actually what it needs to be.
- [58:02]
Ian
But that's why I think that, like, you know, what. What you're saying makes a lot of sense, which is, like, just giving people kind of a space in which to exist and kind of feel like, you know, they are, you know, allowed to be there and be allowed to be who they are. Like that. I think that is, you know, hard work enough all on its own.
- [58:20]
Meg Duffy
I think that my radic. My, like, the most radical thing about hand habits as a band touring is that in the crowd, it's like trans, non binary people and, like, guitar dad guys.
- [58:34]
Ian
Yeah, I'll be. I'll be there.
- [58:35]
Meg Duffy
So it brings, you know, it brings bridging.
- [58:39]
Ian
Bridging the divides.
- [58:40]
Meg Duffy
Bridging the dots between, like, baggy, like, you know, hip queers and, like, guys with ponytails who teach at community college. Like.
- [58:53]
Ian
I know those guys. Those guys are our listeners.
- [58:55]
Meg Duffy
Those are my guys. Don't get me wrong. Those are my guys, honestly, sometimes more than the other ones. But it's. It's a very. It's a diverse, eclectic mix at the show, and it can be healing for some.
- [59:11]
Ian
That's beautiful. All right, that might be a good place to end it. Meg, thank you so much for chatting here again. The record is Blue Reminder out again now or soon, depending on when this episode ends up dropping. Thanks so much, Meg.
- [59:28]
Meg Duffy
Thanks for having me, Ian.
- [60:02]
Poetry/lyrics voice
Crash upon the dark?
- [60:06]
Meg Duffy
Light.
- [60:09]
Poetry/lyrics voice
Streaming through the fog? Tilding to the moon.
- [60:21]
Meg Duffy
Alive?
- [60:24]
Poetry/lyrics voice
Taking me too soon?
- [60:44]
Meg Duffy
Me.
- [60:46]
Poetry/lyrics voice
So on the coast? Life has been good to me? Love like a drop in the sea? This memory is all I.