In Conversation: MICHELLE ZAUNER

Summary

Jokermen Podcast: In Conversation with Michelle Zauner Release Date: April 1, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of the Jokermen Podcast, host Peter engages in a deep and thoughtful conversation with Michelle Zauner, the creative force behind the band Japanese Breakfast. They delve into Michelle's latest album, Melancholy Brunettes and Sad Women, exploring its intricate layers and the artistic journey behind its creation.

[00:00] Welcoming the Guest

Michelle Zauner opens the conversation with enthusiasm about her new record:

“They just released a fantastic fourth record out now on Dead Oceans for Melancholy Brunettes in Parentheses and Sad Women.”

Peter adds his admiration, highlighting the album’s complexity and painterly quality:

“It's short, it's tight, but it's dense. There's a lot here... it took a couple listens to start to map it out in my brain, but now it reveals itself more and more with each play.” [01:10]

Recording the Album with Blake Mills

Michelle discusses her collaboration with Blake Mills, emphasizing his significant influence on the album's sound:

“I knew I wanted to work with someone who had worked with many other musicians... Blake has such a great style and has brought out really interesting things out of many artists.” [06:11]

Peter praises Mills' guitar prowess, sharing his appreciation for Mills’ work:

“He's one of the greatest guitar players of our time, honestly.” [07:55]

Michelle elaborates on the recording process at Sound City, reflecting on the transition from DIY spaces to a professional studio environment:

“I really wanted to return to that [guitar focus]. And I find that I've appreciated everything I've made more with some space away from it and understand it a bit better.” [14:04]

Influences and Musical Inspirations

The conversation turns to musical influences, particularly the impact of Billy Joel's The Stranger. Michelle expresses her admiration despite its rarity in her music:

“He's an undeniable master of his craft.” [05:46]

Peter shares an anecdote about Blake Mills’ dislike for Billy Joel, adding a humorous layer to their collaboration:

“Blake Mills fucking hates Billy Joel.” [05:56]

Touring Experiences and Live Performances

Michelle and Peter discuss the challenges of touring, especially post-COVID. Michelle shares her struggles with stage fright and the logistical nightmares of managing a growing band:

“I was really nervous all of a sudden. I've been playing music since I was 16 years old, and I never really suffered from stage fright before.” [19:20]

Peter compares festival performances to their live shows, emphasizing the desire for intimate and theatrical experiences:

“I think this was the first time in my career that I had the courage to be like, I want to play in these specific kind of spaces that are more beautiful and feel almost like theaters.” [42:01]

Artistic Process and Personal Growth

Michelle reflects on her writing process, particularly how journaling contributed to her creative output:

“I've amassed like 500,000 words of material. Japanese Breakfast really got its start because I wrote and recorded songs every day for the month of June.” [46:27]

Peter encourages the practice of daily writing, sharing his own strategy of using stickers as rewards:

“If you complete an entire week of your writing tasks or something, you get to buy another Bob Dylan ticket or something.” [49:51]

AI and Fan Interactions

The conversation shifts to the impact of AI on artist-fan relationships. Peter recounts a mishap involving an AI-generated image of himself, which led to fan disappointment:

“I got so many disappointed fans and had to take it down frantically.” [43:20]

Michelle empathizes with the challenges artists face in managing their online presence and parasocial relationships:

“It feels like this very shiny version of yourself where you're only consistently at one level, you're keeping it really energetic and just playing your best hits.” [39:55]

Media Portrayals and Biopics

Michelle critiques recent biopics about musicians, including the Bob Dylan movie. She expresses disappointment with the film’s portrayal and omission of significant personal details:

“By the end of the movie, he's engaged to be married to his wife with whom he goes on to have children, and she just doesn't exist in the movie at all.” [53:16]

Peter shares his own mixed feelings about the film, appreciating the fantasy elements but finding narrative shortcomings:

“I didn't understand why we needed two love stories that didn't go anywhere.” [52:04]

Musical Preferences and Influences

The duo discusses their favorite albums from influential artists. Michelle names Love and Theft as her preferred Bob Dylan record and Pet Sounds alongside Surf’s Up for the Beach Boys:

“Love and Theft for Bob Dylan, 2001. Pet Sounds is such a basic answer, but it's correct in many ways.” [58:43]

Peter humorously recounts an incident where his admiration for Smiley Smile was misinterpreted, leading to confusion about his musical direction:

“It was so fucked up. Like, why would they say that?” [56:48]

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

As the episode winds down, Michelle and Peter express mutual respect and appreciation for each other's work. They touch on the enduring legacy of artists like Bob Dylan and the continuous evolution of their own music careers.

Michelle shares an inspiring note on perseverance in the music industry:

“Bob Dylan had some down spots in the 80s, but he still managed to push through and emerge on the other side, bursting out as a beautiful butterfly.” [65:53]

Peter concludes with gratitude, highlighting the personal connections formed through the podcast:

“Thanks for doing the good work, man.” [66:39]

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Key Takeaways

• Album Insights: Melancholy Brunettes and Sad Women is a complex, densely packed record that rewards repeated listens, showcasing a painterly quality and deep narrative elements inspired by literary works like Thomas Mann’s The Magic Mountain.

• Collaboration with Blake Mills: Blake Mills played a pivotal role in shaping the album’s sound, bringing his exceptional guitar skills and pushing the band to explore new creative territories.

• Touring Challenges: Navigating the logistics of touring post-COVID has been stressful, with added pressures of managing a larger band and ensuring the safety of all involved.

• Creative Process: Both Michelle and Peter emphasize the importance of daily creative practices, whether through journaling or disciplined songwriting, as essential to artistic growth.

• AI Impact: The rise of AI-generated art poses challenges for artists in managing authentic connections with their fanbase, highlighting the complexities of modern digital interactions.

• Media Representation: Biopics about musicians often fall short in capturing the full essence of their subjects, leading to dissatisfaction among dedicated fans.

• Musical Influences: Admiration for classic albums like Bob Dylan’s Love and Theft and the Beach Boys’ Pet Sounds continues to influence contemporary music, shaping the creative direction of artists like Michelle Zauner.

Notable Quotes

• “It's short, it's tight, but it's dense. There's a lot here... it reveals itself more and more with each play.” — Peter [01:10]

• “He's one of the greatest guitar players of our time, honestly.” — Peter [07:55]

• “I've amassed like 500,000 words of material... I think you have to create that pattern if you just have it.” — Peter [46:27, 49:51]

• “It feels like this very shiny version of yourself where you're only consistently at one level...” — Michelle [39:55]

• “Bob Dylan had some down spots in the 80s, but he still managed to push through...” — Michelle [65:53]

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This episode offers an intimate glimpse into Michelle Zauner's artistic journey, her creative process, and the challenges faced in the modern music landscape. Through thoughtful dialogue, Michelle and Peter explore the intersections of music, personal growth, and the evolving dynamics of fame and fan engagement.

Transcript

[Michelle Zauner]

Welcome back to Jokerman in Conversation. I'm in today, thrilled to be joined by Michelle Zauner. You may know her better under her stage name, project name, band name, Japanese Breakfast, who just released. They just released. She just released a fantastic fourth record out now on Dead Oceans for Melancholy Brunettes in Parentheses and Sad Women. Michelle needs no introduction for many of you out there, one of the most consistently interesting voices operating in the indie rock sphere over the last decade at this point, back with to me, probably the most impressive record yet. It's short, it's tight, but it's dense. There's a lot here. There's almost a painterly quality to some of the music. I've really found it to be a grower for me and it took a couple listens, took a couple spins to start to map it out in my brain, but now that I've kind of worked my way through it, I don't know, reveals itself more and more with each play. Also for our purposes here on Jokerman, the Bob Dylan Nerd podcast. Plenty of Bob compatriots showing up all across this record. As you'll here in our conversation, Matt Chamberlain, Big Jim Keltner on the kit, and the man behind rough and rowdy ways, one of the men behind rough and rowdy ways, I should say, Blake Mills. Michelle was very gracious to sit down, long conversation, big chat. I feel like I, you know, kind of took her through a rapid fire lightning round interview at certain points, but tons of fun on this one. Talking herself, her work, her world, and plenty of Jokerman favorites as well. Here's Michelle. Michelle Zauner, thank you so much for joining us on Jokerman. I guess as you just told me a moment ago, one of your husband's favorite podcasts.

[Peter]

This is my husband's favorite podcast, the Cinnamon Blazers. I actually sent him the link because we're both big Father John Misty fans and you guys were talking about Bob Dylan and it was this great intersection of his interests. And then he really fell in love with this podcast and was like, you don't have to do these things where you answer questions for TikTok. You just gotta do Joker. So, yeah, I think that, yeah, this came from me being obstinate and not wanting to do a bunch of TikTok social videos because I feel like they don't actually talk about the music and that's why we were talking about things like this and that they're good to do.

[Michelle Zauner]

Amazing. Well, I cannot promise you nearly the amount of views and what's the word engagement that you get off TikTok videos, but hopefully the conversation will be rewarding nonetheless. I did actually want to start with a one of. I didn't see it on TikTok. I saw it on Instagram. But it is a little promo video that you were in. Not talking about your music, talking about a subject that we tend to focus on here on this program, which is old. Guys. You were singing the praises. You were singing the praises of the Stranger, Billy Joel.

[Peter]

Oh, yeah.

[Michelle Zauner]

And. And he's a character. He's an interesting character that we might be talking about a little bit more on this podcast in the months to come. I just. I'm kind of. And you spent already some time in that video. It was a promo thing that I think you did with Pitchfork, explaining what you love about that record. I just. I would love to hear kind of your. Because, you know, I don't necessarily hear a ton of the Stranger in a lot of Japanese breakfast music, but I. I love how much you love that record and that music in general. If you could just tell me kind of what you hear in it.

[Peter]

I mean, it's just great pop music, you know, and it's weird. And that record. I like records where the songs are both cohesive but really different from each other. I think that Billy knows how to write a great pop song. I think that he's a really singular artist. And that album is just banger after banger. Big fat.

[Michelle Zauner]

It is. Yeah. I mean, it kind of is insane to listen to it from front to back and just like, oh, it's this song. And now it's this song. And now it's like he's thrown gas, you know, top to bottom on that thing.

[Peter]

Totally.

[Michelle Zauner]

He's a weird. He's a weird guy, though. I feel like, at least in this age, you know, for people, our general generation or whatever. Cause, you know, on our show, at least, we talk about kind of the bulletproof, like, coolest of the cool, or what the popular culture tends to think of that way. At least Bob Dylan lo read, so. And Billy Joel just kind of has a.

[Peter]

In my opinion.

[Michelle Zauner]

But he's, you know, he's a little. I don't know, there's something kind of declassee about him, at least to a certain type of, like, indie rocker type who is, you know, very nerdy about their influences and stuff like that. So I kind of. I don't know. All of this is to say I love that you are, you know, a fan of his. And I. I'm trying to become more of A fan of his.

[Peter]

It's okay. I mean, I do feel like he's strangely divisive. Not to throw him under the bus, but Blake Mills fucking hates Billy Joel.

[Michelle Zauner]

That's exactly it.

[Peter]

Big argument in the studio, but yeah, I just. I just love him. I think that he writes great music and it touches me emotionally and I think. I don't know, I think it's lame to not like him.

[Michelle Zauner]

He's an undeniable, like, master. Master craft. Master of his craft. Yeah, literally. That's so funny that Blake doesn't. I can see that, I guess, knowing what I know about Blake's. Well, maybe that's a great segue. Blake Mills, close personal collaborator of yours. Close personal collaborator of Bob Dylan's also. Can you just like, how did you guys link up initially and what was it like making this record with him?

[Peter]

This is my first studio album, actually, which seems to be only a big deal to me. People seem to balk at that. And I think that it was a really big deal for me because it was at Sound City with just no average studio.

[Michelle Zauner]

Legendary.

[Peter]

I really wanted to. It felt very hard earned for me as someone that's always made records in kind of DIY spaces and sort of semi professional warehouses and house bedroom studios. And yeah, I knew I wanted to work with someone who had worked with many other musicians and quite lofty ones. And I knew in particular that I wanted a real focus on the guitar. The last record, there wasn't really much room for me to play guitar and so I really wanted to return to that. And yeah, Blake has such a great style and I think has brought out really interesting things out of many artists. I wanted someone who I felt was going to kind of take me out of my comfort zone and challenge me. And yeah, I mean, I really do think he's one of the greatest guitar players of our time, honestly. And so I really wanted to just watch that happen and learn from that.

[Michelle Zauner]

Hell, yeah. Yeah, he's a shredder. I was just listening to Jelly Road, you know, his record from a couple years ago, the other day, which I loved at the time and haven't listened to so much recently, but. And the solo on Skeleton is Walking, like the last two or three minutes of that. He's just like ripping. I love like heavy guitar soloing rock type of stuff. That's not always what you get certainly these days in the quote unquote indie rock scene, to use that term in enormous quotation marks. But I love it, you know, And I love what he brings. I Think to the sound on this record.

[Peter]

He's someone. He's one of the first people who's like, I can hear the tone of his nails. I don't think I've ever felt that way about. But, I mean, I was listening to a song a couple weeks ago, and I was like, did Blake do this? Because I swear to God, that's the sound of his nails on the strings. And it was him.

[Michelle Zauner]

And was him. All right, well, Blake nails the most famous nails in rock music these days.

[Peter]

He does, like, put a lot of focus onto them, honestly. Like, I watched him.

[Michelle Zauner]

Is he, like, you know, manicure. Giving himself a manicure and stuff?

[Peter]

Yeah, like a nail file. And he will change the shape and stuff, like, in the middle of recording.

[Michelle Zauner]

I love that. I gotta ask, did he give you. Did he give you any, you know, kind of glimpses into the world of his.

[Peter]

Or the Bob.

[Michelle Zauner]

With Bob? Because people are very secretive about that.

[Peter]

Um, not really. I think it's one of those things where I also just don't want to be the guy that asks. I mean, like, there are a bunch of things I kind of wanted to ask him about, but I was like, I don't need to bother him.

[Michelle Zauner]

Go and pry.

[Peter]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michelle Zauner]

Getting information out of collaborators of Bob Dylan's is a notoriously difficult task, certainly these days. So even if you had tried to pry, I'm sure he might have been under lock and key on that.

[Peter]

I think that he just. I think he talked about. I mean, I don't know. I don't want to speak for him, but I feel like he imparted just what he learned from that experience, which was not to. That someone like that is not interested in being buttered up, you know, and just want you to hit directly into the source. And that's what they're kind of looking for you when they have you in the room. So, yeah, I think that he. The only thing I really remember him talking about that experience was just what he sort of took away of how to approach a kind of legend like that. I mean. I mean, he's worked with so many, and so I feel like he has a good idea of how to approach. Working with some really intimidating artists, certainly.

[Michelle Zauner]

Well. And speaking of, you know, legends and other artists that pop up on this record, several. You know, obviously Jeff is a big one that I'm sure you've been asked about in basically every interview you've given. I want to ask about Jim. Big Jim Keltner, another Bob Dylan.

[Peter]

Both really.

[Michelle Zauner]

Oh, Matt Chamberlain's on here, too.

[Peter]

Yeah.

[Michelle Zauner]

I did not realize. Wow, man, you are just going. You got the ring.

[Peter]

I mean, it's really Blake's Rolodex of amazing session musicians. And that was also my first time getting to see just what kind of pocket that kind of tier of musician can bring to the table. It was, yeah, really so fun.

[Michelle Zauner]

Was like the wide cast of collaborators. Was that kind of part of the idea going into this? Or was it something that just kind of naturally seemed to make sense as you were in the room making the record?

[Peter]

I kind of just put my trust in Blake to take us there. There were a couple musicians that I brought in. Craig Hendricks, who produced my last two records and is our touring drummer and a creative partner to me. I knew that I wanted him involved in some way. And then Lauren Baba, our violin player, and Adam Schutzer, our saxophone player, came in to do a session. But, you know, I was also in la, so I was really. I was really. To say at the mercy sounds negative, but it's not. I was really at the, you know, trusting Blake to bring in the people he thought was right. And, you know, it. He really introduced me to a really amazing group of people.

[Michelle Zauner]

Yeah, I mean, you can hear it. I think you can hear it in the record. Not that you can't hear it in other Japanese Breakfast records, but it's got its own unique little sonic world. I would say, certainly coming after Jubilee, which also sounds great, but in a totally different. Totally different sounding records. It's impressive to me that you're able to capture such unique sounds back to back. Or I mean, I guess back to back. It's not like they were. There were a couple years between these records. Yeah, exactly. But, you know, from one record to another is all I'm getting at here. This record, I think I read in the Vulture interview you gave, and I think they just mentioned this in passing, this record was shelved. I think they said.

[Peter]

Yeah. I mean, it wasn't. That makes it sound like it was out of my hands. I put it on the shelf.

[Michelle Zauner]

Okay.

[Peter]

Because I was going to move. I knew I was moving to Korea for all of 2024 to work on my next book book. So I had like a year off, but I really. I did that for the last. I mean, my record actually was shelved. Jubilee was because of the Pandemic. So that record I sat on for a year before it came out. And I'm actually pretty used to it now. Between Jubilee and what you have to do when you wait for a book to Come out. I think it's really normal to just like, take a year long breather because there's so much stuff to prep to get it right, you know, in terms of just picking the singles and the album art and the videos and what you're gonna do for the live show. All of that happens really haphazardly as soon as you finish record. So I kind of like having space away, and I find that I've just appreciated everything I've made more with some space away from it and understand it a bit better. So I kind of don't mind.

[Michelle Zauner]

That makes sense. Sure. Yeah. Okay.

[Peter]

That said shelf.

[Michelle Zauner]

Yeah, that. That makes perfect sense. I just. That. And because they didn't really ask any questions about it, and I was just like, so was this record, like, made? And then, like, was she unhappy with it and then, like, decided, you know, it's. So no is the answer to that?

[Peter]

Yeah, no. I just had this other project that I knew I wanted to work on, and so I wanted to record this before I left for Korea. Before I went for Korea, Yeah.

[Michelle Zauner]

You were in Seoul.

[Peter]

I was in Seoul for a year, studying the language and just kind of taking a break and writing my second book.

[Michelle Zauner]

Yeah. You were there for the book purposes. I wonder, did you find yourself also writing songs about that experience at the same time, or did you kind of just completely snap out of songwriting mode into prose writing mode?

[Peter]

Yeah, not at all. I'm like a faucet. It's either on or off. It was, like, in the off position for that year.

[Michelle Zauner]

That's great. It feels a little more like literary to me, for lack of a better term. And as the first set of songs post, obviously, your success as a memoirist, I feel like that makes some degree of sense. I don't know. Would you say I'm on target in saying that some of the muscles that you developed, like writing a memoir or making themselves apparent here, I think I.

[Peter]

Just leaned into maybe prioritizing that a bit more. I kind of wanted this record to be a little bit more challenging, I guess. I mean, not willfully so. I mean, I think I just. I think I've always written very narrative songs. I mean, in my catalog, I have a lot of fictional songs that are very, I guess, kind of in a literary realm. But, yeah, I mean, there. I think half the record is a bit more quieter than some of my other work. And I think also working with Blake, too, I mean, that was something that he felt was, like, cool to lean into. I think so, yeah. I think that that Might be part of it.

[Michelle Zauner]

Is that a Thomas Mann reference in the last song?

[Peter]

It is, yeah.

[Michelle Zauner]

Okay.

[Peter]

I read a lot in 2023 on tour and having, like, a slower year in general. And, yeah, I read. We. We were touring through Switzerland, and it's my husband's favorite book, and just like the Jokerman podcast.

[Michelle Zauner]

He's got great taste.

[Peter]

Yeah, he's a man of great taste. And so we were. We were traveling through Switzerland, and I was very excited to read the Magic Mountain while we were passing through. And I just loved it so much and wanted to write a song kind of like Wuthering Heights, where I just. You know, it's such a great book, I thought I could just summarize it directly to music. And then Joseph Lord, our engineer, was like, do you know that Blonde Redhead has a song that does exactly that? And so, obviously, because it's just a summary, there's a lot of similarities. And I realized I had to turn it into something. I either had to scrap it completely or turn it into something maybe a little bit more personal. And so it became kind of a blend of that book and sort of seeing myself inside of it and through my own lens. And I feel like that song is kind of about. I don't know. I mean, this. I feel like there is this narrative that's being pushed that I am hesitant to push even further up. Just, like, I have succumbed to some peril of success, and I really don't feel like that's what the album is about. I think that the album is about finding some balance in your life and that there is some vanity in being an artist that you need to learn how to kind of, like, uncouple from. So I think that the song Magic Mountain, in a way, is like, you know, when you're on tour, it's almost like being at the sanatorium where time is passing so quickly, and there are all these people in the flatlands that are kind of living these lives outside of you. My friends are getting married and people are dying, and, you know, you're missing out on all this, like, normal stuff because you're in this weird sort of isolated bubble, like, moving through the world. And all of a sudden, seven years has passed by and everything around you has changed, and you don't even know how to kind of reintegrate back into normal living. So, yeah, I think that that is sort of. I mean, really what I was looking to in my future of, you know, being a musician and how to find balance in my life if I want to Have a family. What does that look like as a woman, touring woman? Like, is that even possible? Am I going to mourn this part of my life if that happens?

[Michelle Zauner]

Wow. Damn. That's. I was gonna say. I love that analogy. I mean, it's brilliant. I guess I don't love it because it does sound sort of torturous at the same time. But like, damn, that's, that's. I mean touring does seem just like such a mindfuck to me, you know, And I've read some of the stuff you've, you've said about, I think the last tour post Covid, that it sounds like it was a really, you know, kind of, I don't know, exhausting experience at certain times for you.

[Peter]

Yeah, I mean, I really don't. I think one thing about, I mean the headline I think is a little misleading in that Vulture piece, but I do think that she gave me a lot of space to really clarify what I mean because, you know, no one wants to hear a musician complain about this amazing life that they have. We get to travel everywhere, we get to do what we love. But it's also just intense, you know, it's intense to be on all the time. It mostly just comes from a place of wanting to do a really good job every day and being really afraid that you're not going to. And there's some self sabotaging stuff that happens mentally to convince you that you're gonna fuck this up for yourself. So yeah, in that aspect I was having a really hard time just because I was really, I was just really nervous all of a sudden I never had been. I've been playing music since I was 16 years old. That's 20, 20 years. And I never really suffered from stage fright before. And then all of a sudden we became a bigger band in the last three years that happened on top of coming out of COVID I was like, my violin player was like pregnant and on the road and I was trying to figure out what to do about like, you know, checking vaccination. All of this stuff was like new territory. The burden is on me to like make sure that my crew and band are protected and also am I just bringing thousand of people together to get sick and you know, like it was a really scary time to figure. And then you have your manager and like people that work with you that are like, it's not a big deal, like everyone's doing it right now, like and trying to come up with these regulations and no one's really giving you any help. So I Think that combination of things was just really stressful. And also we're like, okay, you have a bus for the first time. It costs fifteen hundred dollars a day to have a bus. And then you have the driver's fee, you have the, the band fee, you have the crew fee. And then if you get sick, that's seven days of shows that you wipe out and then pay everyone and the bus and your hotels. It's just like navigating all that, I think, just was really stressful.

[Michelle Zauner]

You're stressing me out.

[Peter]

Yeah, it was just a really stressful time to like be the boss of all of that and try to navigate what the right thing to do was during it all.

[Michelle Zauner]

Yeah, I mean, there is an aspect. We talk about this, you know, sometimes with. Oftentimes with a lot of artists, like, you know, eventually, like success in our fucked up world leads you. Success as a musician leads you to become like a small business owner at the same time, you know, and like that. That's not why you got into it. And it's fucking amazing that you get that success and get the opportunity to do that. But like those two skills, like writing songs, going up on stage to play the music, and then running this industrial small business operation, like, do not necessarily go hand in hand together. And so you gotta fucking just like figure it out on the fly.

[Peter]

Once the fever subsides I'll return to the flatlands a new man.

[Michelle Zauner]

A new man. You're in New York, right?

[Peter]

I am, yeah.

[Michelle Zauner]

How does it feel there these days?

[Peter]

It's like that really fun time in New York where we've suffered a long winter and it's beginning, the season is beginning to turn, beginning to lift.

[Michelle Zauner]

Yeah, we're here, we're talking the last day of March. I remember I was living in New York for a couple years and March was the pits to me. Just because you're ready. Because it's been cold for months and baseball is starting and it's about to be spring, but it's still 43 degrees and gray and wet all the time. So I'm glad. It sounds like it's getting a little bit.

[Peter]

Yeah, there was a glimmer of it and it's. I think it's passing again. And we will be reminded that April is pretty bleak as well. But yeah, there are, there are little gaps of nice weather that is fun to celebrate.

[Michelle Zauner]

Did you. So, I mean, the record, obviously this record you cut in Los Angeles, were all the previous records cut? I guess either what, Philly or New York?

[Peter]

Yeah, mostly. Oh, well, Psychopomp was recorded in Oregon and New York.

[Michelle Zauner]

Okay.

[Peter]

Soft Sounds was recorded in Philly. Jubilee, I think, was mostly recorded in Philly as well.

[Michelle Zauner]

Sure.

[Peter]

But these music written in la.

[Michelle Zauner]

Right. Interesting. Did. I can't help but wonder, you know, did. Obviously there's a song on here called Winter in la. Just like kind of existing in that environment. Do you feel like that manifested itself in the music at all?

[Peter]

Maybe. I mean, Blake is like big California guy, so, you know, I think that. I think that there's definitely. On Winter in la, there's some Beach Boy reference.

[Michelle Zauner]

Not the first in the Japanese breakfast. Indiana.

[Peter]

Yeah. And I think. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, Winter in LA was definitely written about that strange experience of watching people eat Thanksgiving dinner, like, outside. And. Yeah, I mean, it was on my mind because I was thinking about all of the incredible musicians that have recorded at Sound City. And I have always had sort of an attitude about Los Angeles, I think, because I'm always severely depressed when I've been there for prolonged periods of time. And so there is this instinctual part of me that wants to blame the superficiality of its culture and feels sort of condescendingly above it. But instead of writing a song about how much I felt superior to Los Angeles, I thought it was actually much more interesting and true to maybe reexamine what my issue is and that there are all these incredible musicians that have had really fruitful, inspiring, intellectual years in Los Angeles. And maybe I need to just open myself up to that.

[Michelle Zauner]

Sure. You know, the East Coast, west coast, dichotomy, rivalry, whatever, is. You're not. It's something that a lot of folks kind of struggle through or think about, at the very least. Do you. You know, and I feel like Los Angeles in particular has kind of been the receptor of so many great musicians from all over the place over the last five, ten years or so. I saying this coming from San Francisco, where the whole San Francisco scene basically decamped to Los Angeles between 2010 and 2015, and similar movements from Philly, from New York have happened as well. I guess I just wonder how you feel as an artist in New York today, existing in whatever kind of New York scene exists or not existing in that same scene. Yeah.

[Peter]

I don't know. I mean, I feel like my come up as a musician was way more centered in Philadelphia. And I feel way more part of that scene in a way than I do in New York. Like, I have some friends that are in bands in New York, but I don't. I think like, it's hard to say that I feel a part of a New York music community because most of the friends that are a part of my musician bubble were people that I met during my years, sort of in Philadelphia, in Philly. So, yeah, I feel like in some ways, it's like if you are a New York band, you're playing New York a lot with other New York bands, and that's what sort of bonds you together, which is more of what I was doing in Philly. These days, we're not really allowed to play New York more than once a year, so it's hard to really feel like a part of the New York community. I wouldn't even know who I would say is. Are like, hot bands in New York right now.

[Michelle Zauner]

Well, when you say not a lot, is that like, that's like Ticketmaster, Live Nation, venue restriction type of thing?

[Peter]

Yeah, I mean, it's just when you do a show in New York, you. You want it. Yeah. I mean, you have to sell your tickets to your shows before playing a bunch of other ones.

[Michelle Zauner]

Damn. Yeah, it's. It's sort of a weird, weird time in many ways. I feel like, you know, like, physical scenes in cities in general are kind of becoming a thing of the past with, you know, some exceptions, obviously, but a lot of the community building, I think kind of goes on, you know, for better or for worse, online. Whereas, you know, in the past it would take place in DIY spaces or like, you know, the back rooms of bookstores or whatever. When you were in. How long were you in Los Angeles cutting the record?

[Peter]

I was there for like, five weeks, I think maybe a little. Five weeks.

[Michelle Zauner]

Did you get a chance to explore Koreatown at all?

[Peter]

Yeah, I mean, I have my spots there, but mostly I was just in the studio. I was just in the studio. And then that song Winter in LA is just about when we had weekends off. Me wanting to punish myself by not leaving the house. But, yeah, I definitely am a big fan of Koreatown, and I do think that you guys have much better Korean food than we have over here in New York.

[Michelle Zauner]

It's pretty special. Yeah. Do you have. If you have any names of spots that you remember or off the top of your head or anything?

[Peter]

I actually gave this recommendation to Jim Keltner, which is called Hungary, which is a Kowguksu restaurant. It's like a. It's like a Korean noodle soup, which I feel like is a sort of underrated Korean dish. But, yeah, that's usually my. My go to spot over there.

[Michelle Zauner]

Hell, yeah. That's. Boy, I would love to imagine Jim Keltner eating Korean noodle soup.

[Peter]

Yeah, he was into it. He said he went there.

[Michelle Zauner]

Wow. Okay. Amazing. On that same subject over in Seoul, as, you know, an American, but obviously an American of Korean heritage, I guess it feels like a major kind of departure culturally in some ways. Although it's similar to New York, maybe more so than Los Angeles. Was that just a lot of, I don't know, constant surprises and just, like, weird shit, or did you kind of fit into an enclave pretty quickly?

[Peter]

I thought I was going to be so lonely and so bored, but I. I felt really at home there in a new, special way. Yeah, I mean, there's an alternative scene there. It's kind of small and unappreciated in some ways, but, yeah, I found some amazing friends. I had a great time. I mean, there are obviously, like, some cultural differences that were interesting to adjust to, but I think especially because of the project and where I met in my life and also the things that I had to interact with particularly, it was. It was actually just a really positive experience.

[Michelle Zauner]

That's great. I know. I've read some, like, just stuff I've read recently. There was a big piece in the New Yorker, I think, about, like, child rearing in Korea, which is, like, yeah.

[Peter]

Rate and, like, highest suicide rate. So it's kind of interesting because as an American going to Korea, I was like, wow, the infrastructure makes me feel so taken care of in many ways. You know, I was really struck that, I don't know, you can everything. It doesn't feel like the city is, like, out to kill you. It's very, very safe. It's very affordable. The subway works really well. It's very cle. Food is, like, pretty inexpensive. And then there are just these little things. Like the bus seats in the wintertime are heated.

[Michelle Zauner]

Whoa.

[Peter]

You're waiting outside. There are just little things of quality of life. They're caring about their people. But then there's other parts of culture there that I didn't really interact with. Like, I didn't work in an office. I didn't have to work. You know, I didn't have to have a Korean work in a Korean workplace. There was no real, like, pressure on me to make money in the city. I didn't have to be dating anyone. So I think a lot of the things that actually are really difficult, there are things that I was sort of sheltered from.

[Michelle Zauner]

Sure.

[Peter]

But, yeah, it's really interesting that in my experience, I just had such a easy, wonderful Time there. But, yes, it clearly, its population is not interested in having children. And. Yeah, under a lot of pressure, I think.

[Michelle Zauner]

Yeah. In some ways, it sort of seems like the future of this country in, like, all the bad ways, but, like, all the good stuff in Korea, like, we're never gonna get, like. I can't imagine, like, heated seats on the bus here. You're going out on tour soon?

[Peter]

Yeah, next week. I'll be flying next week.

[Michelle Zauner]

Wow.

[Peter]

Yeah, next week I'm flying to California to start rehearsals. And then our first show back is Coachella.

[Michelle Zauner]

Hell, yeah. Boy. Have you. Have you done Coachella in the past?

[Peter]

This is our third time.

[Michelle Zauner]

Third Coachella. Okay. Well, do you know what's. Are you gonna be on, like, the. The second step, main stage? Like, afternoon, second stage?

[Peter]

I don't know. I think we have some speculations about where and when we'll play, but as far as I know, they kind of keep it secret. Maybe they don't want it to leak or something.

[Michelle Zauner]

That's crazy. That's like. That's in, like, two weeks from now.

[Peter]

I know. We don't know yet, but, yeah, we have some ideas.

[Michelle Zauner]

Cool. Do you. Is the. I mean, what is. What is Japanese breakfast circa 2025, the live experience? How does that look, feel, sound compared to, you know, where you were before?

[Peter]

Yeah, I mean, I'm really excited because we've never. Like, part of. What was really difficult about Jubilee was we were kind of learning on the go and getting bigger on the go and trying to be like, oh, well, now we can have. We're making enough money now to have some sort of production and lighting elements and packages and things like that. But I'd never anticipated being a band that would have those types of things. So I was kind of trying to figure that out while on tour, playing six shows a night or six shows a week. And then this time, there was a lot more thought process that went into it. I don't know. I was really inspired by stage production of operas and ballets and theater productions. And so we had real set pieces made. And I think because there is this sort of literary and narrative quality to the record, I like the idea of incorporating some theatrical elements to kind of interact with at the performance. And, yeah, it's fun. There's four records now to choose from and figure out the best flow set. And I'm really looking forward to. Yeah.

[Michelle Zauner]

To performing it, to doing it all. Sure. Do you feel like when you. I mean, because obviously you've kind of come a long way in these four Records just in terms of, like, the. You know, all these different sonic worlds you're creating on all them. When you're putting together a set at this point, are you thinking, like, I'm gonna take, you know, a song like Boyish or whatever and, like, represent it in, like, the current sort of sound iteration of the band? Are you gonna try to emulate where you were, however many years ago at this point or somewhere in between?

[Peter]

I very, really am down with that. I think that. I think it's cool when. When bands want to reinvent their songs for a different live setting, but I. I wouldn't think to do that for any. I've done that. I've done that for records like. Boyish, for instance, was a little big league song that I reworked for Japanese Breakfast that I'm a lot happier with. And actually, Men in Bars used to be on another project I did with a different arrangement in production. But for the most part, us as a band, we do try to bring out the recorded version on the live performance. So I would never think to. I mean, it's an interesting question. I would never think to bring Boyish into Melancholy World. In my mind, I would be devastated if an artist did that. I have respect for artists who do do that. But I. I would like to hear the song the way that I listen to it on the record and connect with it on the record.

[Michelle Zauner]

The way that you kind of imprinted on it initially. Yeah, sure. That makes it. Yeah, I. This is. This is a fun, you know, avenue of conversation for me because, you know, someone who, like, I just. I was just seeing Bob in Tulsa last week, and, like, perhaps there's no more famous instance of an artist who has zero regard for the way the song sounds on record and plays it live. Which I think for, like, a particular. You know, a particular type of brain, which mine has grown to become over time, that really kind of tweaks me in an interesting way, but.

[Peter]

Tweaks you in a positive way.

[Michelle Zauner]

In a positive way, yeah. With Bob, at least. You know. But I think that's interesting.

[Peter]

You see the word tweak.

[Michelle Zauner]

Yeah. It gets me going. But I cannot tell you how many times, you know, just. The people around me at Bob Dylan shows are like, what is. What the fuck is going on here? This doesn't. Like. I don't even know what he's playing or so like it. I feel like it's the exception to the rule rather than the rule itself.

[Peter]

Have you had experiences where you go to other concerts and other bands do that and it's, it tweaks you positively.

[Michelle Zauner]

That's a good question. I mean, I'm sure, I'm sure I have. I'm trying to think like. Another good example actually is Vampire Weekend right now who like have turned into like the new Grateful Dead, basically live. It's just like a total huge blown out jam band, party type of thing. And I mean, it's perfect as some of those early records are the self titled or Contra or whatever. Like hearing what they do with Cape Cod, you know, today, stretching it out into this seven minute jam is like, that's also thrilling to me. But I think it takes, I don't know, I guess I can't explain why I like it in some cases, but why I wouldn't like it in others. It's sort of like the Supreme Court definition of pornography in that way. Like, I can't explain it, but I know it, I know it when I see it. Yeah, it's, it's, it's fascinating. Do you feel, do you feel when you go up on stage and certainly are playing definitely like a show like Coachella for instance, like any degree of pressure to like sort of satisfy the expectations of the audience or like give them kind of what they've come for?

[Peter]

I guess so. I mean, it's not. I think I've said this before, but I kind of think of festivals as flirting and your own shows as long term relationships.

[Michelle Zauner]

Going steady.

[Peter]

Yeah, I mean, you can show maybe the less you have to, I mean, in order to fill the time you have to go through. I mean, I think especially our songs, it kind of can be quite different from song to song. So the order is kind of important because there's so many dynamic changes. Some of them are really hyper songs and some of them are like way quieter and more delicate and you know, you have to really go through a dip in energy. Maybe not even one time, but like a few times. And you can only really show that, I don't know, you wouldn't like. I don't want to call any of my songs zoning out at the TV equivalent, but you know, there are some cozier things that your fans want to hear from you that maybe someone who's passing by your stage on the way to see Charli XCX or something is not really interested in. So I think I actually weirdly really enjoy festivals because it just feels like this very shiny version of yourself where you're only. You're like consistently at one level, you're keeping it really energetic and just playing your best hits. I get your greatest hits.

[Michelle Zauner]

Sure. Yeah. You know, it's great. You know, when you can just do banger after banger after banger. Just like the Stranger.

[Peter]

Just like the Stranger. I try to emulate all of our festival sets on Billy Joel's the Stranger.

[Michelle Zauner]

That. That. Listen, that. That's a recipe for success.

[Peter]

Fay. TV's Blood and Blood with your.

[Michelle Zauner]

I mean, the style of venues that you're performing in now, is this a tour? This is like an amphitheaters tour that you're gonna go on. Right. Because I think you're playing like the Greek up here in the Bay Area.

[Peter]

I don't think that's. No.

[Michelle Zauner]

Okay, never mind.

[Peter]

I think. I mean, we tried to prioritize more, like, beautiful. Them theaters. I wanted it to have kind of a more intimate feel, but I think that there is maybe an amphitheater or two.

[Michelle Zauner]

Well, that was my question is, do you feel, like, literally, like the physical sight of where you're playing sort of demands a certain style of performance or a corner of your discography?

[Peter]

I really love that there's a Bjork Vespertine documentary where she talks about picking all of the venues to showcase the. This kind of quieter sound. And I just thought that was really special to have, I don't know, such a deep thought process about all these, like, little details. And so I definitely. This was the first time in my career that I had the courage to be like, I want to play in these specific kind of spaces that are more beautiful and feel almost like theaters.

[Michelle Zauner]

Well suited to your music and just the general kind of vibe.

[Peter]

Yeah. I mean, especially for this record, it felt important.

[Michelle Zauner]

Totally. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's, you know, to bring it back to my buddy Bob again. That's like, he's. I just saw him in Tulsa in this, like, little 2,500 cap ancient theater that felt like a high school gymnasium in some ways. And, like, that's amazing because, you know, he could be playing huge stadiums and it just. It would. You know, he'd fill the seats, but it wouldn't necessarily be the same intimate kind of connection. You know, it's. That's. And that's great to see or great to hear as an audience member is someone who actually. You're not prioritizing just, like, literally, how many tickets can I sell? And what's the most expensive beer that I can have Live Nation sell for me or whatever here? It's like, what is the experience of the audience in the theater? That's the primary motivation.

[Peter]

Yeah.

[Michelle Zauner]

Do you have Any thoughts on AI?

[Peter]

Oh, my God. I mean, tons. But, I mean, we would have to killerify the context, and I don't even know if I want to go there.

[Michelle Zauner]

Okay. I mean, I just. I'm asking because I've seen. You know, I feel like every week there's a new thing that's popping up in the AI and just like this week, it's the Studio Ghibli.

[Peter]

Oh, my God. I got in so much trouble because I'm maybe, like, 1% less online than other people, and I very frequently get tagged in things that are like fan art. Like, someone has made, you know, and a lot of my fans are Jubilee fans. Like, there's a clear intersection there. And I saw that someone had what I thought just drawn an image of me in that style, and I was like, oh, that's so sweet. They did this fan art. And so I also got. Can I. This. I don't know. I hope this doesn't reveal, like, how just ancient I am, but I, like, accidentally hard posted it onto my Instagram, and I got so many disappointed fans.

[Michelle Zauner]

Like, on the grid.

[Peter]

Yeah. Because I also. I just thought I was sharing it to my story, and then I didn't even realize that it was an AI rendered image. I just thought it was, like, someone being sweet. They had drawn this thing, and I was like, that's so cute and nice. And then I got so many people that were very upset at me and had to take it down frantically.

[Michelle Zauner]

Oh, God, that. Man. This seems like such a just nightmare world to be like. Like having this parasocial relationship with your fans, you know, in this. This particular moment online.

[Peter]

I mean, it's haunting how real. I mean, I was just like, oh, someone drew me. I mean, because that happens, like, quite frequently. And I thought it was a sweet thing, but then I got. So many people are deeply disappointed in me.

[Michelle Zauner]

I mean, but that's kind of the thing with the whole. I'm sure there's gonna be some other ridiculous AI thing, you know, next week or a month from now. Like, it. It feels so difficult to, like. I mean, on its face, this is, like, awful shit, you know, Especially, you know, considering what, like, Miyazaki has said about it himself, you know, but, like, it. It's. It almost feels designed to, like, try to just confuse people and then and, like, you know, put them in bad. Like a no win type of position. Even if it seems like in this case, it was initially supposed to be presented as, like, oh, yeah, I just did this thing about this artist. I love Because I really care about them. Where are you at on the. Well, I guess. Feel free to not answer this question, but the second book.

[Peter]

Oh, I've had, like, a week since the record came out, and I immediately felt so energized to think once it came out, it was like this huge weight was lifted from me, and I got to start thinking about a new project again, which is really my favorite place to be. And so, yeah, when I was there, I kept a journal for all of last year, and I kept a journal for all of the year before that. And my thing is creating really, really small expectations for myself every day. And so I just wrote for 10 minutes every day. And just in those two years of writing for 10 minutes every day, I've amassed, like, 500,000 words of material.

[Michelle Zauner]

Jesus.

[Peter]

Yeah. I mean, it's really wild. I've done that for a lot of my projects, and it's been really fruitful. Japanese Breakfast really got its start because I wrote and recorded songs every day for the month of June. And I realized that out of those 30 songs, I only really despised two of them, and the rest were really, really great raw material that I would end up redeveloping. But I think it really helps to just allow yourself to write really badly and freely and not have any real expectation and have this excuse of like, well, I only had 10 minutes, or I only had a day to write and record this. And then I feel like the real writing happens in the revision process. I feel that way about writing books. I feel that way about music. So, yeah, for the second book, I have about 500,000 words of raw material from these journals that I, as of this week, just started kind of revisiting and slowly starting to find the arc of how to bring that together.

[Michelle Zauner]

That's. Man, that is admirable. I say, as a failed writer, former mfa, myself, I find it impossibly, or not impossibly, but extremely difficult to just sit my ass down and, like, actually just do it. You know, Even though that's why I.

[Peter]

Think it's really good to have just. It's just 10 minutes. Like, it's so pathetic to be like, oh, I don't have 10 minutes. Because everyone has 10 minutes. And even if it's just complete garbage, eventually those 10. Something comes up out of those 10 minutes. If you do it every day, you should try it.

[Michelle Zauner]

I should try it. No. And that's the right approach. There's tons of people who. Who, you know, it's common advice, like, you know, just treat it like a job, and you end up, you know, seeing positive results from that eventually. But I'm just such a. I don't know, annoying. Like, if it's. If I'm not, like, the mood hasn't struck me just right, and if what I'm putting down on the page doesn't seem to come out just right, I just, like, get so, like, fed up with myself so quickly.

[Peter]

It's.

[Michelle Zauner]

It's very impressive to me that I do, though.

[Peter]

I think that it's like having really, really low expectations for yourself, which is, for me, 10 minutes of time, at least initially, I find it to really help out, and I think you have to create that pattern if you just have it. If you just have. You know what I did while I was in Korea, which is so nerdy. Friend told me about. My friend has, like, a. Was telling me about how she has this, like, sticker calendar, you know. Did you ever take piano lessons? Whenever I did piano lessons, I would. If I practiced for 30 minutes a day, I would get a sticker.

[Michelle Zauner]

Like a gold star or like.

[Peter]

Yeah, once you finish doing a song, you would get a sticker so you could move on to the next song if you played it well enough. I've created. My friend told me that she's created this in her. In her adult life where she has this calendar and she gets a certain sticker. If she has, like, sex with her boyfriend, she gets a sticker. She goes to the gym, she. Because they're, like, different accomplishments. So I did that last year with writing in an English journal for 10 minutes, writing in a Korean journal for 10 minutes, doing flashcards for half an hour. And if I completed all three of those boxes, I would get a sticker.

[Michelle Zauner]

A sticker.

[Peter]

And it was actually really motivating for me. I mean, maybe. I don't know. It was really motivating for me. I don't know if that will be as much motivating for you. Maybe you need some other kind of. Like, maybe you can, like, get a Bob Dylan piece of Parenthelia.

[Michelle Zauner]

I get to listen. My wife allows me to listen to one more Bob Dylan song.

[Peter]

Yeah. If you get, like, 10. If you complete an entire week of your. Your writing tasks or something, you get. You get to buy another Bob Dylan ticket or something.

[Michelle Zauner]

Boy, that would. That would be quite a memorabilia. Yeah. A reward for me. A treat for me there. Do you. Did you. Did you get a lot of stickers for yourself?

[Peter]

I mean, I did. I wish I had the calendar readily available, but I have. It's full. It's full of. It's full of stickers full of rewards. Yes.

[Michelle Zauner]

That's great.

[Peter]

Have you talked about the movie a lot in this podcast?

[Michelle Zauner]

I have talked about it. Did you see it?

[Peter]

I did recently. Were you a fan? What is your take?

[Michelle Zauner]

Oh, you know, it's not made for me and that's okay.

[Peter]

Who do you think it's made for?

[Michelle Zauner]

I think it's made for people who are kind of casually aware of Bob Dylan and might have heard one or two songs but don't really know what's going on. That's one bucket of people that it's made for. And then the other one, maybe more importantly, is the legions of Timothee Chalamet fans out there. I think the movie really only works because of him at the center, because he really does inhabit the role and really goes for it and he knows his shit, as he's demonstrated on his press tour over the last several months. And he's just got a cult of personality, really. He's one of the big movie stars. And so I think his interest in Bob being kind of transmuted to a generation of his own fans who might not have necessarily come to Bob without him, without Timothy explicitly saying, hey, this dude rocks and is very important and you need to pay attention to him. I think that's great. That's super admirable about it. What do you think?

[Peter]

I think that I really enjoyed the fantasy of that world, which I haven't thought about in some time of just that era, and his music's role in it, and just the fantasy of these, you know, people meeting and interacting with one another. But it felt confused.

[Michelle Zauner]

Yeah.

[Peter]

I didn't understand why we needed two love stories that didn't go anywhere. And I wanted it to either be about his, like, I don't know, his like, elusiveness and where that stems from. And yet it was non committal because it didn't. I don't know, it was. It was able to both take a lot of creative. What's the word? Liberties. A lot of creative liberties. But yet it didn't dare investigate. Take creative liberties into his interiority, which I felt was like, desperately needed.

[Michelle Zauner]

Yes. No, I'm. I'm totally with you there. He's sort of a cipher in the movie and he is sort of a cipher in reality as well, you know, but like, it's a movie and like you just said, like, if you're already taking some creative liberties, like, we need to have some sort of go all the way. Yeah, exactly, exactly. And the love story Thing. I mean, Joan Baez is one of them. The other one is.

[Peter]

Yeah, everyone a part of it at all. I don't know.

[Michelle Zauner]

And what, I mean, what really bugged me also. And this is just, you know, the Bob Dylan nerd aspect of it. But like by the end of the movie, it's in 1965, he is engaged to be married to his wife with whom he goes on to have children, and she just doesn't exist in the movie at all. And so there's this lie by omission type aspect to the story, which I understand he might have told the director. I don't want you to actually talk about my actual wife Sarah in this movie. I want you to focus on other things. But I don't know, as someone who's just spent so much time over the years studying every move this man has made, it like, didn't quite fulfill what I was hoping to get out of a real life.

[Peter]

What would you have hoped for?

[Michelle Zauner]

I don't, you know. Have you seen like any of the other Bob Dylan movies throughout the years? Yeah, like, I'm not there. Yeah, yeah. You know, I think that, that, that's also sort of a contentious movie in the Bob Dylan nerd community. But. And parts of that are better or worse at. Different parts of that movie are better or worse than other parts. But I think the core of that movie, which is this kind of low stakes, casual but nuanced interpersonal drama between Heath Ledger and Charlotte Gainsbourg where they're playing these fictionalized versions of Bob and his wife Sarah at a certain point in his career. And like it feels like a Bob Dylan song and like you're getting a read on Bob Dylan the Man, but without being so sort of straightforward and heavy handed and didactic about it. I think you either need to do that or frankly it needs to be like a documentary, basically. And we have fantastic documentaries. Don't Look Back. The Scorsese one, no Direction Home, the other Rolling Thunder one. I don't know, I think I'm just. Like I was saying at the beginning, I think I'm just not the person that this particular take on the material was made for. So I was kind of of destined to be dissatisfied.

[Peter]

Like rock biopics.

[Michelle Zauner]

Oh boy, that's a good question. You know, I thought the. I thought that the pre. I mean, James Mangold, the director of this movie.

[Peter]

Cash.

[Michelle Zauner]

The Johnny Cash one. Exactly. I thought that was pretty good as far as those go. And that might be because I don't know nearly as much about Johnny Cash as I do about Bob Dylan, But I think it is something that can be done. But I think the current wave of biopics and stuff that have come out over the last several years, from the Freddie Mercury one to the David Bowie one to the Elton John one, those all. That flavor of movie is not for me. And to their credit, that's not what the Bob Dylan movie is. But it's still. It's only so satisfying, you know, It's a tough thing to do, make. Make movies out of music. That's why it's music in the first place. It's not a movie. I think I might have hit everything. I'm looking at my list here. I feel like I got it all. You got. I mean, let's maybe end on this. Because Beach Boy. We're doing Beach Boy stuff these days. And you got Beach Boys record references on this record. And on the left, like, what? Give me some Beach Boy.

[Peter]

Stick my Beach Boys takes.

[Michelle Zauner]

Yeah.

[Peter]

Peter, what was the record that we were. Oh, some. I saw someone call this record. I think it was Smiley Smile. So I listened to. Oh, yeah, we had listened to Smiley Smile for the first time.

[Michelle Zauner]

Sick.

[Peter]

Because someone said that they thought that melancholy for Melancholy Brunettes was my Smiley Smile.

[Michelle Zauner]

Interesting.

[Peter]

And I was like, why? And then I listened to this and I was like. It was. This is so fucked up. Like, why would they say that? And I was taking it to be, like, a really positive thing. But then I got really kind of offended. But then I. We came back around to it. I think, like, the, like, the Vegetables song is just, like, so confusing. And then it actually opens up to be really beautiful. It's just so. Yeah. Good Vibrations is obviously on there, but. Yeah, it's so weird. I don't know. Like, obviously, I'm a huge Pet Sounds fan, but I don't know too much about their discography beyond just loving. Talk about also another movie. I really want someone to make a movie like the Beach Boys movie with just Paul Dano's section and Julie and Julia, but just Meryl Stream section to combine them into a perfect film.

[Michelle Zauner]

I've never actually seen that movie. The. What's called. Yeah, Love and Mercy, I think the one with John. Where it goes to.

[Peter]

I think that John Cusack is really good.

[Michelle Zauner]

So the Paul Dano portion is good. The John Cusack portion, not so much. Yeah, I've been saving that. I feel like that. That is a comment that I've heard a couple people make, which. That's, to me, the later era of artists that's what I'm really interested in, and that's part of the Bob thing too, is like, eh, I've heard this story before. So if it turns out to not be as satisfying as the initial stuff, that'll be a disappointment.

[Peter]

What is your favorite Beach Boys record? And what is your favorite Bob Dylan record?

[Michelle Zauner]

Ooh, those are great questions. Love and Theft for Bob Dylan, 2001. That's the one for me. Perfect song. Mississippi there on track too. It's just like everything that I could ever need from a piece of rock music. Honorable mention to Street Legal, also for Bob Beach Boys. I don't know, I feel like I kind of go up and down there. I mean, you can't go wrong with Pet Sounds, you know, that's like. That's such a basic answer. But at the same time, like, you know, it's basic because it's, you know, it's correct in many ways. I love Surf's Up. I love the record we just talked about most recently, the Beach Boys Love youe. Which I don't know if you ever listen to that, but it's this like 1977 record from them where it's like Brian kind of coming back out of his like cocaine haze for a couple years. And it's basically just a Brian Wilson solo record. And it's all these insane ugly synthesizers, like early Moogs and Arps and stuff like that. Instead of the big, beautiful orchestrated studio musicians from Pet Sounds. But he's trying to recreate that sound with just like, you know, the worst sounding synthesizers you've ever heard. And it's also got these weird, like childlike lyrics that are simultaneously off putting, but like emotionally resonant and revealing. It's a true, headiest. Throw that on the bus, you know, when you're driving around. It's a trippy 35 minutes. Smiley smile. That's a weird. I mean, I love Smiley Smile too. This record does not like sound too much like Smiley Smile to me.

[Peter]

I don't know where that was coming from. I mean, he was a really sweet journalist and I think he meant it with like the great. But then when I listened to that record, I was very. I was confused by what he meant by that.

[Michelle Zauner]

Yeah, I mean, one of the things.

[Peter]

I guess maybe because it just. I don't know if like. If Jubilee was my Pet Sounds just like the most, I don't know, bombastic, like embraced record. Then maybe for Melangali Burnettes and Sad Women is. Is my more confusing, confusing, confusing record. What he meant by that. But, yeah, or if. Just, like, it sounds like an artist doing what they. Whatever the fuck they want to do.

[Michelle Zauner]

What they really want. Yeah. I mean, the great thing with Smiley Smile is, like, you know, it's a demake of Smile, you know, which didn't end up coming out at that time. And so, like, it's really just all of them just, like, getting high off their ass. And, like, literally parts of that record are recorded in, like, in a bathroom or in an empty swimming pool, and there's, you know, vegetables and stuff like that. And it's. I think it's brilliant. But it's this kind of outsider art, almost DIY approach to Smile, which was gonna be one of the great pop symphonies of all time. And this record, I feel like this record is closer to Smile than to Smiley Smile. Like, talk about big, beautiful, bright, orchestrated sounds. It doesn't really have any of that demake quality to it, as much as I like that, man. All right, well, I feel like I've put you through a lightning round on this, Peter.

[Peter]

Do you want any hot. Do you. Do you want any hot Bob Dylan takes on your favorite podcast? Do you want to say hi? This is my husband. He. He also plays in the band and he's a big fan of the podcast.

[Michelle Zauner]

Hey, what's up, Peter? Thanks for. You know, it's Peter.

[Peter]

It's because of Peter that I'm here.

[Michelle Zauner]

That's. Thanks for. Thanks for spreading the good news. Word.

[Peter]

Yeah. Thanks for doing the good work, man.

[Michelle Zauner]

Absolutely. You got. You got. You got any Bob Faves? I'm a big, sort of like, mid-70s to late 70s Bob. Okay, so, like, Blood on the Tracks, Desire, Planet Waves. Sure. That's a fantastic era.

[Peter]

Yeah.

[Michelle Zauner]

Yeah. Have you guys reviewed those records yet on the. Oh, yeah, we've done. We have. I mean, we've been doing the show for nearly five years at this point. So we've done all of them, like, once, and then, like, again, and then, like, again again in certain cases. So we have. We've sucked the marrow out of that bone just about as deep as we can, which is why we're onto the Beach Boys and potentially Billy Joel here at this point.

[Peter]

Yeah, please go through Billy Joel's catalog next.

[Michelle Zauner]

We literally are. You know, we are going to wait.

[Peter]

Really?

[Michelle Zauner]

Yeah. I mean, if you want to come back to do the Stranger with us, you know, the Doors, scenes from an Italian Restaurant is just begging for the Michelle Zhonr analysis.

[Peter]

That's how we met.

[Michelle Zauner]

Yeah, you mentioned that in the. In the Pitchfork thing. You Were doing karaoke of that at a. That's incred. That's. Take some chutzpah to get up there and do scenes from an Italian restaurant in karaoke bar.

[Peter]

This, like, annoying guy.

[Michelle Zauner]

Did you do the whole thing? All seven something minutes?

[Peter]

Everyone was so annoying because everyone's so annoying because there's like 20. There's like 45, 44 bar instrumental breaks and then everybody just waiting to sing Weezer and, you know, like Evanescence or something. And yeah, I was just like, wow, that's a. That's a man, man.

[Michelle Zauner]

Yeah. Thank God that you did, because, you know, it's. It's worked out for both of you.

[Peter]

Yeah.

[Michelle Zauner]

Ten years, Billy Joel, bringing people together, making love happen.

[Peter]

Yeah. And then we both went and saw him at Madison Square Garden and got Covid together.

[Michelle Zauner]

Yeah. Yeah. I. Those shows seem, you know, never been to one, obviously, but those seem like thrilling, cathartic experience.

[Peter]

It was sick.

[Michelle Zauner]

Yeah.

[Peter]

He does it all. Except for Uptown Girl. Yeah.

[Michelle Zauner]

He doesn't do Uptown Girl.

[Peter]

Didn't do Up. I don't know if that's like.

[Michelle Zauner]

Is that like a thing out of.

[Peter]

His range or something? Or maybe he hates that song. I think that's one of the songs.

[Michelle Zauner]

That he famously hates.

[Peter]

I know he hates We Didn't Start the Fire. Actually. I think he's, like, not into that, which is so devastating because I've been, like, a big defender of that song for a really long time.

[Michelle Zauner]

You guys ever listen to Nylon Curtain? No, that's one of my favorites. Like an 82 kind of concept album from him about baby boomers and the illusion of the American dream. It's got some great songs. Allentown. That's the kind of era of stuff that I dig where it's kind of past peak. Billy Joel, and he's kind of trying to bite off more than he can chew. And it doesn't entirely work, but it's a fascinating glimpse into the man's mind nonetheless.

[Peter]

That's cool. That's a really interesting thing to know about yourself.

[Michelle Zauner]

Yeah, it's.

[Peter]

You know, to be someone who likes that era of someone's catalog. It's definitely strange taste, but, yeah, much appreciated.

[Michelle Zauner]

Yeah, it's. That's. The fun thing with. With rock musicians is just like, especially old ones is they've just got. There's so many ups and downs, man. And it's. If it's someone you really love, like, you want to go through the downs with them just as much as you want to go through the apps with them. I think not that there's going to be, you know, tons of downs in the Japanese breakfast career necessarily. But I think your fan base will be interested to chart the future with you. Really? You know, I know.

[Peter]

I mean, I'm so obsessed with that, actually. Of just your, like, where is the plateau and where is the downhill? And are you aware of it while you're working on it, or does it just come up behind you?

[Michelle Zauner]

Right. I think that's the. I mean, to me, that's what I kind of really appreciate about someone like Bob is like, he had some. Some down spots, man, in the 80s. Like, he should have hung it up, you know, if he was trying to, like, you know, just go out, not even on top, but go out before embarrassing himself. But he still, like, managed to even push through, like, just the deepest, darkest, worst shit of his career and then, like, emerge on the other side, bursting out of this cocoon as a beautiful butterfly. Like, that's inspiring to me. Anyways, that's maybe a good note to end it on. Thank you, Michelle. Thank you, Peter. This was a delightful surprise. Third mic on the pod today.

[Peter]

Yeah, Peter's first podcast appearance. Oh, thank you guys for having me. A bottle of white.

[Michelle Zauner]

Thanks again to Michelle Zauner and Peter for popping up there at the end, turning this into just a couple people hanging out, shooting the shit, talking about Bob Dylan. That's what Jokerman was at the beginning, what Jokerman always will be in some sense. Once again, from Melancholy Brunettes and Sad Women, available now on Dead Oceans. Catch Japanese breakfast on tour all throughout these United States in 2025. Down there in the desert, Coachella, you know, swing by, give it a spin. It's good to see they still got. Still got some great artists coming through out in old Indio. We will see you next time on Joker.

[Peter]

Okay with me these days. Got a good job, I got a.

[Michelle Zauner]

Good office, I got a new wife.

[Peter]

Got a new life, and the family is fine. Lost touch long ago.

[Michelle Zauner]

You lost weight. I did not know.