Jokermen Podcast: In Conversation with Michelle Zauner Release Date: April 1, 2025

Introduction

In this episode of the Jokermen Podcast, host Peter engages in a deep and thoughtful conversation with Michelle Zauner, the creative force behind the band Japanese Breakfast. They delve into Michelle's latest album, Melancholy Brunettes and Sad Women, exploring its intricate layers and the artistic journey behind its creation.

[00:00] Welcoming the Guest

Michelle Zauner opens the conversation with enthusiasm about her new record:

“They just released a fantastic fourth record out now on Dead Oceans for Melancholy Brunettes in Parentheses and Sad Women.”

Peter adds his admiration, highlighting the album’s complexity and painterly quality:

“It's short, it's tight, but it's dense. There's a lot here... it took a couple listens to start to map it out in my brain, but now it reveals itself more and more with each play.” [01:10]

Recording the Album with Blake Mills

Michelle discusses her collaboration with Blake Mills, emphasizing his significant influence on the album's sound:

“I knew I wanted to work with someone who had worked with many other musicians... Blake has such a great style and has brought out really interesting things out of many artists.” [06:11]

Peter praises Mills' guitar prowess, sharing his appreciation for Mills’ work:

“He's one of the greatest guitar players of our time, honestly.” [07:55]

Michelle elaborates on the recording process at Sound City, reflecting on the transition from DIY spaces to a professional studio environment:

“I really wanted to return to that [guitar focus]. And I find that I've appreciated everything I've made more with some space away from it and understand it a bit better.” [14:04]

Influences and Musical Inspirations

The conversation turns to musical influences, particularly the impact of Billy Joel's The Stranger. Michelle expresses her admiration despite its rarity in her music:

“He's an undeniable master of his craft.” [05:46]

Peter shares an anecdote about Blake Mills’ dislike for Billy Joel, adding a humorous layer to their collaboration:

“Blake Mills fucking hates Billy Joel.” [05:56]

Touring Experiences and Live Performances

Michelle and Peter discuss the challenges of touring, especially post-COVID. Michelle shares her struggles with stage fright and the logistical nightmares of managing a growing band:

“I was really nervous all of a sudden. I've been playing music since I was 16 years old, and I never really suffered from stage fright before.” [19:20]

Peter compares festival performances to their live shows, emphasizing the desire for intimate and theatrical experiences:

“I think this was the first time in my career that I had the courage to be like, I want to play in these specific kind of spaces that are more beautiful and feel almost like theaters.” [42:01]

Artistic Process and Personal Growth

Michelle reflects on her writing process, particularly how journaling contributed to her creative output:

“I've amassed like 500,000 words of material. Japanese Breakfast really got its start because I wrote and recorded songs every day for the month of June.” [46:27]

Peter encourages the practice of daily writing, sharing his own strategy of using stickers as rewards:

“If you complete an entire week of your writing tasks or something, you get to buy another Bob Dylan ticket or something.” [49:51]

AI and Fan Interactions

The conversation shifts to the impact of AI on artist-fan relationships. Peter recounts a mishap involving an AI-generated image of himself, which led to fan disappointment:

“I got so many disappointed fans and had to take it down frantically.” [43:20]

Michelle empathizes with the challenges artists face in managing their online presence and parasocial relationships:

“It feels like this very shiny version of yourself where you're only consistently at one level, you're keeping it really energetic and just playing your best hits.” [39:55]

Media Portrayals and Biopics

Michelle critiques recent biopics about musicians, including the Bob Dylan movie. She expresses disappointment with the film’s portrayal and omission of significant personal details:

“By the end of the movie, he's engaged to be married to his wife with whom he goes on to have children, and she just doesn't exist in the movie at all.” [53:16]

Peter shares his own mixed feelings about the film, appreciating the fantasy elements but finding narrative shortcomings:

“I didn't understand why we needed two love stories that didn't go anywhere.” [52:04]

Musical Preferences and Influences

The duo discusses their favorite albums from influential artists. Michelle names Love and Theft as her preferred Bob Dylan record and Pet Sounds alongside Surf’s Up for the Beach Boys:

“Love and Theft for Bob Dylan, 2001. Pet Sounds is such a basic answer, but it's correct in many ways.” [58:43]

Peter humorously recounts an incident where his admiration for Smiley Smile was misinterpreted, leading to confusion about his musical direction:

“It was so fucked up. Like, why would they say that?” [56:48]

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

As the episode winds down, Michelle and Peter express mutual respect and appreciation for each other's work. They touch on the enduring legacy of artists like Bob Dylan and the continuous evolution of their own music careers.

Michelle shares an inspiring note on perseverance in the music industry:

“Bob Dylan had some down spots in the 80s, but he still managed to push through and emerge on the other side, bursting out as a beautiful butterfly.” [65:53]

Peter concludes with gratitude, highlighting the personal connections formed through the podcast:

“Thanks for doing the good work, man.” [66:39]

Key Takeaways

• Album Insights: Melancholy Brunettes and Sad Women is a complex, densely packed record that rewards repeated listens, showcasing a painterly quality and deep narrative elements inspired by literary works like Thomas Mann’s The Magic Mountain.

• Collaboration with Blake Mills: Blake Mills played a pivotal role in shaping the album’s sound, bringing his exceptional guitar skills and pushing the band to explore new creative territories.

• Touring Challenges: Navigating the logistics of touring post-COVID has been stressful, with added pressures of managing a larger band and ensuring the safety of all involved.

• Creative Process: Both Michelle and Peter emphasize the importance of daily creative practices, whether through journaling or disciplined songwriting, as essential to artistic growth.

• AI Impact: The rise of AI-generated art poses challenges for artists in managing authentic connections with their fanbase, highlighting the complexities of modern digital interactions.

• Media Representation: Biopics about musicians often fall short in capturing the full essence of their subjects, leading to dissatisfaction among dedicated fans.

• Musical Influences: Admiration for classic albums like Bob Dylan’s Love and Theft and the Beach Boys’ Pet Sounds continues to influence contemporary music, shaping the creative direction of artists like Michelle Zauner.

Notable Quotes

• “It's short, it's tight, but it's dense. There's a lot here... it reveals itself more and more with each play.” — Peter [01:10]

• “He's one of the greatest guitar players of our time, honestly.” — Peter [07:55]

• “I've amassed like 500,000 words of material... I think you have to create that pattern if you just have it.” — Peter [46:27, 49:51]

• “It feels like this very shiny version of yourself where you're only consistently at one level...” — Michelle [39:55]

• “Bob Dylan had some down spots in the 80s, but he still managed to push through...” — Michelle [65:53]

This episode offers an intimate glimpse into Michelle Zauner's artistic journey, her creative process, and the challenges faced in the modern music landscape. Through thoughtful dialogue, Michelle and Peter explore the intersections of music, personal growth, and the evolving dynamics of fame and fan engagement.