Jokermen Podcast: In Conversation with Robert Polito

Episode Date: February 16, 2026
Main Theme:
A deep dive into Bob Dylan’s “late era” (post-1991) artistry, centered on Robert Polito’s new book, After the Flood: Inside Bob Dylan’s Memory Palace. The conversation explores Dylan’s creative reinvention, the vast scope of his output since the 1990s, the evolution of his influences, the significance of “memory” in his work, and the unique challenges of capturing Dylan’s modern mythos.

Episode Overview

Ian welcomes Robert Polito, poet, scholar, and author, for an expansive discussion about Dylan’s later career, the process and philosophy behind Polito's book, and the cultural/literary significance of the artist's evolving body of work. They trace Dylan’s artistic path from the 1991 Grammy Lifetime Achievement Award onward, with sustained attention to the music, non-musical projects, and Dylan’s enigmatic public/private life.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Genesis of the Book & Dylan’s Second Act

• Robert describes After the Flood as a study of Dylan’s reinvention “in his 50s with a new way of writing songs, a much more collage way of writing songs, but also lots of touring and live performances ... writing books and making a movie and doing a radio program.” (04:14)
• The book focuses “on what those songs know, what those songs remember, and kind of all that they know.”
• Polito notes that Dylan’s “second half” is underappreciated even as it matches or exceeds the legendary early years in artistic depth.
  • Quote: “Dylan's career tends still to sort of be, for most people, 1961 to 1966 ... and I think that the second half of the career is just really extraordinary.” (05:37)

2. Personal Histories with Dylan

• Robert recounts his teenage obsession with Dylan, borrowing Highway 61 and not wanting to give it back. (07:34)
• He saw Dylan live at the Rolling Thunder Revue and Bangladesh concert but drifted away in the 1980s, only to return when Dylan “pulled himself together” after the grim Grammy speech in 1991.
• The pivotal moment: Dylan’s 1991 speech, where he speaks of being “so defiled in this world ... God will always believe in your own ability to mend your own ways.” (03:06, 08:24)
  • Polito: “That was the start of his reinvention.” (09:39)

3. Records that Mark the Rebirth: World Gone Wrong, Good As I’ve Been to You

• Polito highlights the overlooked power of Dylan’s folk/blues covers in the early 90s, noting Dylan’s radical reinterpretations and the beauty of his singing on these records. (11:17)
• Both agree that Dylan’s covers introduced numerous listeners to the memory palace of American musical history—“I would not even be aware of them ... were it not for Bob Dylan himself.” (11:48)

4. Structure of the Book: The Abecedarium

• The book is organized alphabetically, giving it a playful but logical form—“26 chapters from A to Z.” (13:02)
• Inspired by James Merrill’s The Book of Ephraim, it mimics Dylan as both “medium and spirit” channeling countless voices through collage and quotation.
  • Polito: “The alphabetical order allowed me to be chronological when I needed to ... but also allowed me to be topical.” (13:49)

5. The “Memory Palace” Metaphor

• Polito explains the classical art of memory—imagining a house where memories are spatialized—as a parallel to how Dylan’s work stores and recalls American history, literature, and trauma. (15:25)
• Insights extend to cognitive science (London cab drivers’ hippocampus), making the “memory palace” both metaphorical and literal. (17:06)
  • Quote: “It became about, like, what those songs know and what those songs remember for us.” (16:13)

6. Quotations, Collage, and the Ethics of Borrowing

• Dylan’s “photographic memory” and dense quotation practice is compared to modernist giants (Eliot, Joyce, Pound). (20:40)
• The difference: Dylan fuses the “folk process” with literary modernism, expanding tradition into a living dialogue with the past. (21:30)
  • Quote (Polito): “From folk process to basically modernism ... a very small but incandescent and important lateral move.” (21:20)
• Polito dismisses notions of plagiarism in Dylan as “a very naive way of addressing works of art ... the history of literature is a kind of series of conversations.” (22:42)

7. Carnivals, Strangeness, and “Old Weird America”

• Discussion of carnivals as a defining Dylan motif—an emblem of America’s foundational weirdness, violence, and spirit of perpetual reinvention. (24:33)
  • Quote (Polito): “Carnivals aren’t just jokes. There’s something kind of dark about them at the same time that they’re entertaining.” (25:24)
• Reminiscence of Dylan’s exaggerated carny stories—mythmaking as self-invention. (26:29)

8. Rough and Rowdy Ways as the “Real” Nobel Lecture

• Polito argues that Dylan’s 2020 album is “about the making of art,” with nearly every song reflecting on artistic influence and legacy. (27:15)
  • Songs like “Murder Most Foul” are a “shadow history of American popular song.”
  • Quote: “It was Dylan’s acknowledgment of his Nobel Prize in his own idioms and styles ... a more effective response than the actual Nobel lecture.” (29:41)
• “Rough and Rowdy Ways” provides the book’s structural spine.

9. On the (Never) Ending Tour and Late Works

• Reflections on Dylan’s relentless touring, especially in his 80s, including discussion of performance evolution and speculation on new music. (31:18)
• Both host and guest recognize the “perfection” of Rough and Rowdy Ways as a final statement, yet agree Dylan will probably surprise us again. (32:16)

10. Together Through Life (2009) and Skipped Subjects

• Ian notes Polito didn’t dedicate a chapter to the 2009 album, which Polito attributes to limited archival material and the co-writing process with Robert Hunter. (33:50)
  • Quote (Polito): “I never intended [the book] to be ... encyclopedic ... only retrospectively do I realize that, oh, I should have written about it.” (34:24)

11. Never-Ending Tour’s Many Eras

• Special mention of the ’94 Nara, Japan symphony performance and the transformative MTV Unplugged appearance.
• The 1990s live performances mark a true return to creative form and image. (37:36–39:00)

12. Dylan’s Private Spirituality and Elusiveness

• Despite decades of attention, Dylan remains mysterious—public, yet fiercely private, “hidden in plain sight.” (41:01, 43:20)
• The spiritual current in Dylan’s work is strong, manifesting in songs like “Key West.”
  • Polito: “There’s something kind of so moving ... his refusal to choose either earth or heaven ... the horizon line.” (41:31)

13. The Radio Motif: Theme Time, Key West, & Memory

• Dylan as “a radio person”—the radio as both metaphor and literal touchstone for exposure to other worlds and ideas. (44:44)
• Comparison with other artists (Donald Fagen, Lou Reed) whose imaginations were likewise formed by radio magic. (46:36)
• Modern access to music (e.g. Spotify) lacks the serendipity and mystery of past radio—a loss of wonder. (46:53)

14. Theme Time Radio Hour: Collage & Form

• The radio show is itself a “memory palace,” curated with poet’s attention to formal constraint (episodes “organized around themes”). (50:22)
• Parallels with Alan Lomax’s program and Woody Guthrie’s radio work. (52:20)

15. Visual Art: Paintings, Metalwork, and Noir

• Bob’s visual output is praised for its beauty and connection to themes of collage and American strangeness—especially film noir. (53:07)
  • Comparisons to Andy Warhol: both artists work with reproduction and found images. (54:48)
  • Noted contrast between Dylan’s increasingly literal painting style and his increasingly spectral songwriting. (55:48)
  • Quote (Polito): “They’re kind of literal in a way that the songs almost never are.” (55:48)

16. Work Ethic, Recent Sketches, and Touring

• Dylan’s prodigious work (in visual art, music, live performance) is a recurring marvel.
• Both speakers share experiences attending recent “Rough and Rowdy Ways” gigs, including cross-country pilgrimages. (57:09, 58:24)

17. The Perennial Rough and Rowdy Ways Tour

• Discussion about the ongoing (now multi-year) “Rough and Rowdy Ways” tour.
• Notable for its setlist consistency—but “from night to night, it seems like 17 different songs” due to radical reinterpretation. (31:34, 60:34)
• The uniqueness of Dylan’s tour stops—small-town venues, off the commercial music map. (61:58)
  • Quote (Polito): “It’s almost like he’s on a road trip himself ... has to play someplace every couple days ... busking his way across the country.” (62:15)

18. Bob Dylan and Social Media: Hidden in Plain Sight

• The baffling, AI-tinged, cryptic Instagram posts are considered another extension of Dylan’s fascination with “voices from the other world.” (63:18)
  • Quote: “Who would have guessed that Bob Dylan would be on social media at all? Another way of the kind of hidden in plain sight aspect of him.” (63:18–63:33)

19. Dylan and Thomas Pynchon: Kindred Recluse Spirits

• Polito admits little direct knowledge of their relationship, but speculates the connection is natural: “Who else is he going to be friends with? Weird, reclusive, great artists.” (65:34)

20. The Standards Albums: Shadows, Fallen Angels, Triplicate

• Both are bullish on Dylan’s American Songbook records:
  • Praised for inventive arrangements and deeply felt vocal delivery (“the great white singer after Frank Sinatra”). (67:33)
  • Polito: “Part of what I love about [those records] is the singing, but also the arrangements ... reinvented for his own band.” (67:33)
• The darkness and complexity of the material resonates with Dylan’s fascination for film noir and the shadow side of American myth. (69:53)
• These albums are described as deeply significant to Dylan’s late output, analogous to his earlier folk revival projects.

Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On Dylan’s Genius for Collage & Memory
  • “He could recount conversations that they had had decades before, virtually word for word ...” – Polito (18:59)
• On the Enduring Mystery of Bob Dylan
  • “It’s kind of amazing in a way, for such a public figure, how little we actually know.” – Polito (40:50)
• On Artistic Theft & the Folk Process
  • “Literature is a kind of series of conversations.” – Polito (22:42)
• On “Rough and Rowdy Ways” as a Final Statement
  • “That’s my story, but not where it ends.” – Dylan, quoted by Ian (32:16)
• On Touring
  • “Almost like he’s on a road trip himself and every couple days has to play someplace ... to pay his way to the next town by bus. He’s busking his way across the country.” – Polito (62:15)
• On Dylan’s Social Media Weirdness
  • “Who would have guessed that Bob Dylan would be on social media at all?” – Polito (63:18)

Notable Segments & Timestamps

• Robert Polito’s elevator pitch for the book – 04:14
• Discussion of 1991 Grammy speech & “reinvention” – 08:24
• Analysis of “abecedarium” structure – 13:02
• Memory palace as literal and metaphorical device – 15:25–18:06
• Quotation, collage, modernist tradition – 20:40–22:42
• Carnivals and American weirdness – 24:33–26:29
• “Rough and Rowdy Ways” as Nobel lecture – 27:15–29:41
• Discussion of Together Through Life being omitted – 33:50
• Reflections on Dylan’s spiritual side & privacy – 40:50–43:20
• Dylan and radio: magic, nostalgia, curation – 44:44–49:44
• Theme Time Radio Hour as art form – 50:22
• Visual art: painting, film noir, Warhol comparisons – 53:07–55:48
• Reflections on the “never-ending” Rough and Rowdy tour – 59:25–62:35
• Dylan’s cryptic Instagram and the “other world” – 63:18
• Discussion of standards albums & vocal artistry – 67:29–69:53

Overall Tone & Takeaway

The episode is enthusiastic, scholarly, and affectionate—at once reverential toward Dylan's artistic achievement and candid about the quirks and complexities of his late work. Both host and guest maintain a conversational, often playful, and deeply knowledgeable tone, making the details vivid for lifelong fans and newcomers alike.

The summary encapsulates an exploration beyond Dylan as a musician: considering him as chronicler, mythmaker, scholar, and mysterious American icon, whose late-era output continues to bewilder, provoke, and inspire.