Jokermen Podcast

In Conversation: W. David Marx
December 15, 2025
Guest: W. David Marx, author of Blank Space: A Cultural History of the 21st Century

Episode Overview

This engaging episode of Jokermen features a deep-dive conversation between host Ian and cultural critic/author W. David Marx. The discussion centers on Marx’s new book, Blank Space: A Cultural History of the 21st Century, which explores the blurring and re-shaping of culture in the last 25 years — especially through the lenses of music, fashion, technology, and criticism. The talk hits on theoretical heavyweights (Adorno, Jameson, Baudrillard, Fisher) while remaining grounded in accessible examples, particularly via the evolution of “poptimism” in music criticism and broader culture. Marx also examines the canonization of pop, the role of critics, the arc of figures like Kanye West, hybridization in music, and the unique infrastructural and social dynamics shaping creativity in the present day.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The "Blank Space" of 21st Century Culture

[04:05] – [06:17]

• Marx’s Thesis:
  • The last 25 years feel like “a big blur,” but under the surface, major shifts in cultural values have occurred.
  • Despite a flood of new cultural output, “that engine of creative activity and experimentation... seems to have just gone away as a cultural value.”
  • Culture works “incredibly well as entertainment and distraction, as a profit center and as a political tool,” but is missing deeper creative ambition.

“We have cultural activity. There’s in some ways more culture being created today than ever before in the history of the world... Yet there's something missing... trying to do something more with the mediums like film and music seems to have just gone away as a cultural value.”
— W. David Marx [05:14]

2. The Rise (and Mutation) of Poptimism

[06:17] – [15:29]

• Origins & Definition:

  • Poptimism arose as a reaction against the myopic critical focus on (mostly white, male) rock music.
  • Emphasis on “taking pop music as seriously as rock music,” which is an “impeachable position.”
  • Over time, poptimism generalized: the marketplace then lauded “pop” (i.e., mass-market success and immediacy) at the expense of challenging, experimental, or niche art.

• Soft vs. Hard Poptimism:

  • Soft: Just equity of legitimacy between pop and rock.
  • Hard: Elevation of “big, democratic, immediately accessible” culture over anything challenging.

“There’s, I guess what you would call maybe something like soft poptimism... which is to say all we’re saying is that pop music should be taken as seriously as rock music... Poptimism then went broader... The market took on a poptimist valuation of pop culture... That is a big reversal of values from the 20th century.”
— W. David Marx [08:44]

• Critique:
  • The values of easy pleasure and mass appeal now dominate criticism, leaving little room for “struggle” or “being pushed” by art.
  • The expectation is that the greatest pop should “meet you where you are,” not require effort or time.

“There is a real, I think, almost ideological battle about: is art supposed to be pushing you as a listener, or is it supposed to meet you where you are?”
— W. David Marx [15:13]

3. The Attention Economy, Critics, and The Fate of Experimentation

[18:39] – [33:05]

• Cultural Consumption Today:

  • An abundance of instantly catchy, familiar music (e.g., Taylor Swift’s frequent re-use of chord progressions).
  • Attention scarcity means less incentive for listeners to “work for it” and less support for artists taking creative risks.

• The "Mike Love Century":

  • Ian/Marx reflect on how today’s market preferences reward the “safe,” mass-market approach (Mike Love), contrasting the “innovative/experimental” routes (Brian Wilson, David Lynch).

“This century has been the Mike Love century, and it was a Brian Wilson century.”
— W. David Marx [20:32]

• Role of Critics:
  • Historically, critics and “cultured people” sustained artists through lean/experimental years.
  • Now, even critics feel economic and algorithmic pressures to prioritize mass-market releases (“Addison Rae and Taylor Swift”), further diminishing space for the “minor leagues.”

“If these two groups... critics and creative-class consumers... are also not providing these innovative artists with a fan base... if there’s no one supporting them and the market’s not supporting them, why would they continue?”
— W. David Marx [32:07]

4. The Evolution of Music Criticism: Pitchfork and Beyond

[33:05] – [40:01]

• Case Study: Pitchfork
  • Early years: championing the unknown and shaping careers.
  • Poptimist shift: inclusion/celebration of pop, sometimes to the point of “retroactive absolution” (re-reviewing Taylor Swift’s back catalog).
  • Recent hints of synthesis—highlighting truly obscure records alongside pop stars.

“The idea that critics, if you can bring together the audience who’s hungry for recommendations and make those recommendations, there is still an effect to that.”
— W. David Marx [36:43]

5. The Kanye West Arc — Microcosm of 21st Century Culture

[40:11] – [48:36]

• Kanye as Protagonist/Distillation:
  • Early years: a force for hybridization, experimentation, and bridging scenes (pop, backpack rap, luxury fashion).
  • Eventually, a pivot to transgressive, right-wing provocations — culminating in open anti-Semitism.

“Kanye is the story of the 21st century... He is the bridge... that hybridization... and then the fact that he goes hardcore right wing... which is also the story of the 21st century... that to be punk rock is to make the swastika T-shirt.”
— W. David Marx [47:05]

• Cultural Reflection:
  • Kanye’s arc is not just personal but a reflection of broader cultural mechanisms: the pursuit of attention at all costs and the mutation of “transgression.”

6. The Paris Hilton / Kim Kardashian Template & the Logic of Disruption

[49:44] – [56:35]

• From Vilified to Iconic:
  • Early contempt for reality stars like Paris and Kim has given way to retroactive celebration.

“Paris Hilton was widely reviled... If you were to describe 2010s culture and you didn’t mention Paris Hilton, what are you doing?”
— W. David Marx [50:07]

• Indestructibility of Scandal:
  • The logic of online fame: “If a love click and a hate click are the same click, it doesn’t matter to an editor... editorial skews towards these people. And all they have to do to get attention is to break a social norm.”
  • No real punishment for breaking norms; only rewards for “endless” disruption.

“There’s no punishment for breaking the social norm, but there’s a ton of reward for breaking the social norm.”
— W. David Marx [56:00]

7. The Death (or Displacement) of Scenes & Musical Innovation

[57:37] – [65:45]

• Where Are the New Genres?
  • Trap and hyperpop cited as rare true innovations; most “new” genres fail to achieve scene status.
  • Local, in-person scenes (like Atlanta for trap or UK for grime) historically catalyzed genres. Online, geographic diffusion stifles momentum.

“Where there’s been instances of cultural invention like trap, they’ve been very successful. I think people still want to hear new sounds. Hyperpop... is pretty aggressive... But compared to the 25 years before, have there been more new genres? That’s a harder thing to argue.”
— W. David Marx [57:37]

• The New Scene: Group Chats & Discords:

  • Creating a scene online (Discords) can mimic old dynamics but lacks physical immediacy and snowball effect.

• Case Study: Tokyo’s Scene Health

  • Lower barriers (for fashion/food) foster vibrancy and competition; contrasts with U.S. urban creativity “hollowed out” by high rents/tech.

“If you look at say, fashion, food, beverage, bars... Tokyo feels very, very vibrant because it is relatively inexpensive to operate a store, to operate a studio... and everybody knows each other because it’s geographical.”
— W. David Marx [62:55]

• Durability of Material Culture:
  • “You can’t download a blazer.” (Great writer’s trick — line coined 15 years ago!) [66:10]

8. Closing Thoughts & Book Structure

[67:22] – [69:14]

• The Blank Space book is not just theory, but a “timeline” focusing on what happened, chronologically, privileging contemporary voices over endless editorializing.
• The narrative is approachable compared to dense theorists like Baudrillard or Adorno, offering Fisher-like insight with page-turner readability.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the shift in creative intent:

  “There’s not this sense that we’re making it because we’re trying to make it better than before or do something different or really push the art forward.”
  [05:23]

• On poptimism’s bad-faith and market logic:

  “There’s something about pop—things that are made to be pop—that are more authentic than things that are outside of the market. And that is a big reversal of values from the 20th century...”
  [09:30]

• On the “Mike Love Century”:

  “I feel like this century has been the Mike Love century, and it was a Brian Wilson century.”
  [20:32]

• On critics’ role in nurturing innovation:

  “On your pathway to long-term epoch-making cultural innovation, you’re going to have some years in the wilderness... Critic[s]... made you feel as if you’re doing the right thing, even if it wasn’t working in a mass level.”
  [29:19]

• On Kanye’s arc reflecting America:

  “That is the arc of American culture... [Kanye] starts... earnest, real curiosity about the world and wanting to push artistic ideas... ends up making a swastika t-shirt.”
  [45:38]

• On online fame and norm-breaking:

  “If a love click and a hate click are the same click, it doesn’t matter... All they have to do to get attention is to break a social norm. There’s no punishment for breaking the social norm, but there’s a ton of reward.”
  [55:24]

• On digital vs. real-life cultural scenes:

  “If you have a club night... and you want to impress these other producers that are going to be at the party... now you have this great incentive... It’s snowballing, snowballing... These evolutions happen because you have a particular place in which there’s some sort of social interaction.”
  [61:15]

• On material culture’s resilience:

  “You can’t download a blazer.”
  [66:10]

Selected Timestamps for Reference

• 04:05 — Marx lays out his thesis for Blank Space.
• 07:14 — Deep dive into the origins and mutation of poptimism.
• 13:49 — Discussion of what makes “pop” authentic; anecdote about Charlie XCX vs. Taylor Swift.
• 20:32 — “Mike Love century” vs. “Brian Wilson century” analogy.
• 25:14 — Importance of “not giving people what they want” (art/business/Steve Jobs parallel).
• 29:19 — Critics’ changing role in supporting innovation.
• 33:05 — Pitchfork’s shifting impact.
• 40:11 — The Kanye West arc as a mirror for 21st c. cultural currents.
• 50:07 — Paris Hilton, early internet fame, changing reputations.
• 55:24 — The logic of scandal clicks and the perverse incentives of digital media.
• 57:37 — Where (if anywhere) new musical genres emerge in an age of global digital diffusion.
• 62:55 — Contemporary Tokyo as a model for urban creative vibrancy.
• 66:10 — “You can’t download a blazer.”
• 67:22 — Marx on his book: “not just theory,” aimed to be an enjoyable, linear historical read.

Tone & Style

The conversation is both intellectually rigorous and conversational, littered with incisive examples, pop culture digressions, and approachable candor. The host and guest are clearly engaged, occasionally wry, but ultimately serious about the culture they’re dissecting.

For Listeners

Who Will Like This Episode:

• Fans of music criticism, cultural studies, or anyone looking for a thoughtful, accessible account of why “things feel this way now.”
• Listeners interested in the evolution of taste, scenes, criticism, and the inside-out of the 21st-century attention economy.
• Those who enjoy weaving together big theory (Adorno, Fisher) and practical, personality-driven narrative (Kanye, Taylor Swift, Paris Hilton, Pitchfork).

Recommended: Pick up W. David Marx’s Blank Space for a thorough, readable chronicle of these intertwined shifts and struggles.