Teaser // Silver Jews: TANGLEWOOD NUMBERS with @secretknowledgeofbackroads

Jokermen Podcast Episode Summary

Date: January 4, 2026
Guests: Evan, Ian (hosts); Doug (@secretknowledgeofbackroads)

Episode Overview

This episode of the Jokermen podcast is a deep-dive celebration of Tanglewood Numbers, the fifth Silver Jews record by David Berman, in honor of the album’s 20th anniversary. Joined by Doug—also known as @secretknowledgeofbackroads on Instagram, known for his thoughtful curation and deep love for Berman’s work—the hosts explore the history, impact, aesthetics, and personal resonance of Silver Jews, particularly focusing on the musical and visual elements that define Tanglewood Numbers. The discussion also naturally ventures into fandom, country music, and the eccentricities of Berman's artistic vision.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Doug’s Path to Silver Jews & Berman

Doug admits he arrived late to indie rock and Silver Jews, having been deep into hip-hop and jazz until the early 2000s.
A pivotal Fader magazine feature (“Dying in the Al Gore Suite,” July/Aug 2005) introduced Doug to the raw honesty of David Berman’s personal struggles, drawing him into Berman’s world.
- Quote:
  - “I was just so struck. I was like, that's just raw honesty and authenticity. Just not used to seeing. Maybe more so now. But 2005, people weren't talking like that, so I was just drawn to them through that...” (05:26)
Doug credits Berman (alongside Dylan) for making it “okay” to be a country music fan within indie circles, breaking down genre prejudices.

2. The Impact of Criticism and Artist Sensitivity

The episode discusses how a middling Pitchfork review of Lookout Mountain, Lookout Sea particularly affected Berman, leading to a lengthy hiatus, impacting him more than such reviews might seem to warrant.
- Quote (Evan):
  - “I mean, for such an ultimately inconsequential cultural artifact—a 500 words dashed off by a freelancer on Pitchfork... that seems to have such an outsized effect on the productivity... of one of the greatest artists of the last 20, 30 years is, you know, kind of crazy to me.” (09:29)
The group reflects on Pitchfork’s then-outsized influence in indie music, with Doug admitting that as a young listener, his own initial lukewarm reaction to Lookout Mountain… may have been colored by the site’s review (08:40).

3. “Odd/Even” Silver Jews Albums & the Pavement Connection

Ian posits a theory: odd-numbered Jews records feature Pavement members (Stephen Malkmus, Bob Nastanovich), even-numbered ones don’t.
The presence or absence of Pavement alums changes the album’s character:
- Doug generally prefers the records with Malkmus, appreciating his guitar work, though recognizes Tanglewood Numbers as unique in its arrangement.
- Evan prefers the non-Pavement albums for their sense of Berman creatively untethered, seeing those as a more personal exploration.
- Quote (Evan):
  - “They seem to be him sort of unbridled and sort of carefree... because he's able to just kind of be the guy, the jefe there in the recording studio...” (16:07)
Doug notes on Tanglewood Numbers, Malkmus’s vocals are absent, replaced by Cassie Berman, signaling David’s assertive production hand.

4. The Album as Artistic Statement: Cover Art, Place, and Aesthetics

The hosts dive deep into the visual language of Tanglewood Numbers:
- Its cover is a William Eggleston photograph of a Memphis bar, with busts of JFK, MLK, and RFK and a vintage cash register.
  - The back cover is also by Eggleston (Chattanooga), cementing its Tennessee identity (24:01).
- The photo’s ordinary, unfussy style is contrasted with the music’s deep emotional intensity.
- Eggleston's approach parallels Berman's: treating everyday moments and objects as worthy of artistic reverence.
- Quote (Evan):
  - “When I say lack so much, I mean they lack like human beings. They lack like a depth of field. They lack... any sense of drama necessarily. But... there’s so much of a human being and drama and depth of field in this music.” (27:24)
- Both cover and music balance refined style with a refusal to chase trends.

5. Silver Jews’ Southern Identity & Outsider Status

The Eggleston photos and the recording’s Nashville roots tie Tanglewood Numbers firmly to Tennessee—though it lacks the literal song “Tennessee” (24:02).
The group agrees that, while Bright Flight feels like the more overtly “Nashville” or country record, Tanglewood Numbers is a bit more “urbane,” visceral, and musically muscular.
Berman’s southern roots and willingness to engage with country music as “high art” challenged indie rock’s boundaries in the early/mid-2000s, influencing a new wave of artists to do the same (32:08).

6. Country Music as Liberated by Berman

Doug credits Berman and Dylan for helping indie listeners like himself shed their self-consciousness about country music.
- “He actually made it okay for me to like listen to country music…I just remember this one interview where he's talking about, like, Charlie Rich Behind Closed Doors was one of his favorite records... he gave me permission to listen to it.” (32:08)
Evan adds an anecdote about Berman’s surprising love for a particular Kenny Chesney song, underscoring Berman’s open-mindedness (34:04).

7. Berman’s Personal Style & Visual Sense

Berman is celebrated as much for his style and aesthetic sensibility (both clothes and curation of imagery) as for his lyricism; he carried a consistent and authentic vision into all aspects of his work (29:25).

8. Live Experience & Regrets

Both Doug and the hosts rue having missed the rare Silver Jews and Purple Mountains live shows, noting that Berman’s live appearances were rare and poignant, making his work even more precious in hindsight (19:10-20:43).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Fan Account Curation (Doug):
“I just have too much respect for David Berman and his work and like, he wasn't about [social media clout]. The account can't be about that... I really just try to be respectful to his legacy, memory and his work.” (02:09)
On Visuals & Aesthetic (Berman via Doug):
“This is, like, most his record. He was very involved in the production... he really wanted to put his stamp on that record.” (17:43)
On Eggleston Photographs (Evan):
“He claims anyway to have not ever taken multiples of anything. Like, he sees something, takes the photo, and does not take more than one shot of it... which is why I think so many of them feel that way. There's something immediate but kind of ineffable about them...” (22:11)
On Berman and Country Music (Doug):
“Between Berman and Dylan, I've become a pretty big country fan over the last 20 years. I listen to a lot of country music, not the new stuff, but you could say about almost any kind of music I listen to—it’s not the new stuff. It's the old stuff.” (32:20)
On Missed Shows (Doug):
“Oh, there's a lot of things I'm ashamed about in my life, but this is... I did not see [Silver Jews live]... it's a goddamn shame. I'm really embarrassed by it and regret not having done it.” (19:21)
On Berman’s Influence Beyond Music (Evan):
“He really had a strong sense for the visual as well and for style... this matches his aesthetic sense... he just really dressed like himself all the time.” (29:06)

Key Timestamps

02:09 — Doug on his philosophy running the @secretknowledgeofbackroads account
03:23-06:36 — Doug’s personal discovery of Berman & Silver Jews
07:05-09:29 — Discussion of Pitchfork’s influence & the impact of reviews
11:44-17:27 — Odd/even album split: Malchmus/Pavement presence and its impact
19:10-20:43 — Memories and regrets around Silver Jews’ live performances
21:33-24:08 — Dissection of the Tanglewood Numbers cover and regional identity
29:25 — Berman’s sartorial and aesthetic influence
32:08-34:05 — Berman’s open approach to country music and influences

Closing Thoughts

This episode is a love letter to David Berman’s artistry—from subtle production choices and album art to the personal ways he inspired listeners and transformed genre perceptions. Doug’s deep knowledge and reverence offer new insights into Berman’s world, while the hosts’ candid reflections and vivid musical context create a celebratory, tender, and thoroughly engaging exploration of Tanglewood Numbers and the Silver Jews legacy.

Jokermen Podcast Episode Summary