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- [00:00]
A
Jokerman podcast is brought to you by Distrokid and their new Direct to fan tool. Allowing any artist to sell merch. Distrokid Direct allows artists to create a merch store in minutes without any upfront costs or any technical skills or know how they'll take care of all the logistics and the nitty gritty. And as with distribution through Distrokid, they never take a cut of the proceeds. You, the artist, keep 100% of your earnings. Once again, that's Distrokid Direct. Open a store today@distrokid.com direct.
- [00:40]
B
Welcome back to Jokerman and to our annual celebration of David Berman and Silver Jews. I'm Evan.
- [00:49]
A
I'm Ian. And thrilled to be joined this year by probably the Mo. Well, I guess we had Nastanovich on at one point, so he might be a little bit more knowledgeable about the Jews. Although honestly, frankly, probably not.
- [01:01]
B
Probably not.
- [01:02]
A
Probably the most knowledgeable Silver Jews guests we've ever had here on Jokerman, it's Doug, better known as at Secret Knowledge of Backroads on Instagram. Thanks for joining us, Doug.
- [01:14]
C
Oh, happy to be here. Thanks for having me. It's an honor. To be honest, I've listened to you guys for a while. So surreal to be talking to you directly.
- [01:22]
A
We've been following and, and, and just peeping all the, all the goods that you've been throwing out there on Instagram for, you know, just really just, you know, appreciate the, it's very well curated approach to things. You know, I feel like, you know, sort of memorial accounts or fan accounts can certainly tip a little too far into like, I know meme culture and algorithm gaming and stuff like that. But I feel like you have sort of mastered a very tasteful, respectful, but like kind of deeply knowledgeable and reverent approach to David's work. So just from one, you know, David Berman appreciated to another, salute. Thanks for everything you're doing.
- [02:03]
B
Yeah, I think one of the best fan accounts out there, period, is, is yours.
- [02:09]
C
I mean, I really appreciate that because I really have no idea what I'm doing. I mean, I'm not like a big Instagram guy outside of this and I'm glad it sounds like I'm striking the appropriate balance. I really don't want to get into like chasing likes and all that stuff. I just have too much respect for David Berman and his work and like, he wasn't about that. The account can't be about that. But sometimes I feel I fail and post some or more in my stories. I Post some bullshit. Cause I'm like, that's me. That's not Berman. I hope you don't separate the two. But yeah, I really just try to be respectful to his legacy, memory and his work. So appreciate the kind words.
- [02:52]
A
You are nailing it here, I guess. I mean, that's maybe a good place to get started. So this episode, as everyone might be aware by the title and the description stuff, Tanglewood Numbers recently hit the 20 year anniversary mark. This will be our first episode of 2026, actually. So we'll be technically into the 21st year of the record's existence, but just a few months ago had its 20th anniversary. Before we get there though, Doug, I'd love to hear sort of your experience. Like, how did you kind of come to the wonderful world of David Berman?
- [03:23]
C
It's right here. I hate to admit it, I brought. I'm like a prop.
- [03:29]
A
Oh, wow, you got the actual Paper cop.
- [03:32]
C
Yeah, this was. I will admit, I was not in on indie rock in the 90s. I missed. Missed American Water, I missed Natural Bridge, I missed all that. I was just into like hip hop, Drop Called Quest jazz, sure. But I got really into this. I'm only going into this level of detail because of this specifically. And you guys, I got really heavy into Bob Dylan. Like I don't know how. I don't remember how it happened. Just before Love and Theft came out. So that kind of brought me back to rock music. I was like, okay. And then I like stuff like all the people were influenced by Dylan. I started listening like Jack White. I started getting to the White Stripes. The White blood cells record 2001.
- [04:16]
A
Sure.
- [04:16]
C
And then just any like hyped band, you know, Strokes, Is this it? Yankee Hotel Foxtrot, all that needy rock stuff. Whatever's getting hyped by Pitchfork or Magnet or Fader. I was, I was getting into. I was just like, you know, following the lead of the Tastemakers at the time. But yeah, I just happened. I was, you know, more of autobiography. I was in law school at the time, just hating my life and picked this up in Syracuse, Barnes and Noble.
- [04:46]
B
This being for the listeners at home, the issue of the Fader from what's the month and year of that.
- [04:53]
C
It is July, August 2005, issue 31. And it contains the Nick Weidenfeld Dying in the Al Gore Suite.
- [05:02]
A
Dying in the Al Gore Suite. Yeah. A subject that we will certainly spend some time talking about.
- [05:08]
C
Yeah. So it just describes all that went down. I think we all know between Bright Flight and Tangua numbers like that period in Silver G Doc that Burnham describes as his hellhole life, he just hit.
- [05:24]
A
The bottom.
- [05:26]
C
Had some fun, but ultimately hit the bottom. But, yeah, I just remember reading that article and just being, like, taken aback by Berman as a person, personality, and just the raw honesty of that article and him just being just out there talking about how he abused himself, how he let himself get to where he was, and just, like, talking that honestly about, you know, an attempt at his own life. I was just so struck. I was like, that's just raw honesty and authenticity. Just not used to seeing. Maybe more so now. But 2005, people weren't talking like that, so I was just drawn to them through that started, you know, went to itunes, top tunes, random rules, how to run a room. And I was just like, this guy's amazing. I'm hooked. And then a few months later, Tanglewood came out, and I was into it. I liked it. It didn't sound like what I had known Silver used to sound like to that point. It's definitely a change in sound. It's a departure, but I liked it and it kept me, you know, a Berman fan and kept me interested. So, yeah, that's the backstory.
- [06:37]
A
Perfect. Well, this sounds like the right. The right record, the right man for the right record coming in right around this time, and certainly does not. I mean, it sounds. It's David Berman. So it does sound, you know, like David Berman records to some extent, but does mark a pretty, you know, a significant step away in certain. Certain ways from the sound of previous records. So I guess were you. You were still presumably tuned in when, like, Lookout Mountain came?
- [07:06]
C
Oh, yeah, I was.
- [07:08]
A
I wonder how you. Because I'm always curious about that. I feel like that's such a hinge point in David's career. You know, I'm just, like, always laser focused on that just, like, middling Pitchfork review that who gives a shit about, but seemed to really, like, affect him very deeply. And, you know, he really just kind of stepped away from making music for a decade at that point. And I really think that, I don't know, it started to do some pretty serious irreparable, you know, irreparable damage to himself by doing so.
- [07:38]
C
How did you.
- [07:39]
A
How did you feel about that record when it came out?
- [07:41]
C
Well, first, I mean, it's just insane that a review could be that impactful, you know, But, I mean, I was a little lukewarm to was a grower for me. I mean, what cannot, what is it, what could be, but what is not.
- [07:58]
B
But could be could be.
- [07:59]
A
If.
- [07:59]
B
Yeah.
- [08:00]
C
Thank you.
- [08:00]
A
Tongue twister.
- [08:02]
C
Great line though. It's. I mean, but like, I just feel like that was a slow start to the record. And like, I mean it says it in the Pitchfork review. Like Bourbon was known for his openers and that was just seemed lagging in some way or something or lacking more lagging. Just the, the vibe to it. But now it's like one of my favorite records. I, I actually, I mean, one of my favorite songs on that record and I just. The outro. I just wish it could have turned into a jam song and I wish it did, but they stopped it short. But anyway, yeah, I was lukewarm on that record and I hate to think maybe I was influenced by Pitchfork not liking it. Like, okay, they might be right. I mean, I was, I was an.
- [08:40]
B
Impressionable young man when Pitchfork was at their peak in terms of cultural relevance, it was a bigger deal. Like we, I, I know that we like to say, like, it's crazy that Pitchfork, but it was one of the few places taking these types of records seriously at all and having people who are interested read about these things. So at that time, I think it, it we, we shouldn't like poo poo. Just that, like the whole thing, like.
- [09:10]
C
Yeah, I mean, I agree. And like, when I was doing the research I was doing to come on your show, I like, was trying to figure out, looking at the reception, like, what did it get? What were the reviews like? And then I was like, it doesn't matter. Pitchfork gave it 7 9. That's the only review that matters. Everything else is superfluous, you know. So I agree with you.
- [09:29]
A
It really was kind of the high water mark of their, of their cultural power, control, whatever you want to call it, that power. Well, I mean, listen, it's fine to write a review about this stuff and not fully connect with the music. I respect that and honestly wish more people would do that because I feel like that is sort of an art that has fallen by the wayside in this era. I guess when I talk about it, I mean, for such an ultimately inconsequential cultural artifact. 500 words dashed off by a freelancer on Pitchfork. Someone who probably got paid $85 to write the whole piece that seems to have such an outsized effect on the productivity or the lack of productivity of like, one of the great artists of the last 20, 30 years is, you know, is kind of crazy to me. Obviously, you know, you can't pin the entire, you know, saga of David Berman's life on one random Pitchfork.
- [10:25]
B
No one's at fault there, really.
- [10:27]
A
It's just. It's kind of a weird, cosmically unfortunate series of events, I guess, is what I would say.
- [10:34]
C
I just looked it up too. It's Mark Richardson directed review and I actually like him.
- [10:38]
A
Oh, Richardson's great. Actually. We've had Richardson on the, on, on Jokerman. All right, so, you know, I don't mind about that.
- [10:44]
C
He was having a bad day, bad week, you know, I don't know.
- [10:50]
A
Well, that's, that's another record. We talked about that with our buddy Vish a couple years ago. Great record that I also love quite a bit here today to talk. Like we said, Tanglewood numbers 2005, fifth of six silver Jews records. We're kind of just hopping around the discography in here. I would love. I've been thinking about this record in a couple different ways and I'm curious to get your take on it as well, Evan, because this is one always been sort of a little beyond my grasp for some reason. And not beyond my grasp in the sense that like, I don't get it or I can't understand it, but just like it's not. I don't have a handle on it. I don't. I can't necessarily kind of tie it to my heart the same way that I can with almost any other Silver Jews record. But I've been thinking about it and I. Doug, I'm curious about your take on this. Like, there's the. To me, there's the odd numbered Silver Juice records and then there's the even numbered Silver Jews records. And the odd number Silver Jews records are the ones that have pavement in them, Malcolmus and. Or Nastanovich. And the even ones don't. And I don't at all think that this is how David like went about, you know, kind of constructing his records and putting things together over the series of whatever, 15, 20 years, you know, one with, one without. But the fact remains that that is kind of how things ended up working out. And here obviously we've got the fifth, we've got an odd numbered Silver Jew'. So we've got Steve, we've got Bob on this record, I guess. What do you think about kind of the in and out? Are they there, are they not there kind of status of Steve and Bob over the course of the Jews discography?
- [12:28]
B
Doug?
- [12:28]
C
Well, that's funny because if I had another word doc up, I could actually quote it, but Berman actually says like that was by design and I don't know if it was. I Don't know if it was by design or just a recognition of that's how it worked out. But I mean, it could have been by design initially because he had no Natural Bridge. He did start with Malchus and Stanovich and Steve west and they just.
- [12:54]
A
They were blindsided by him making that record without him.
- [12:58]
C
Well, no, they tried to record it originally with them in Memphis and that was at Easley. I don't know. It's Easley Something Studios. And he just had a breakdown and he took off. And then the Pavement guys were left to record the Pacific Trim record or EP just because they had studio time booked. They're like easily. McCain Studios just came back to me. But yeah, they had to record that because Ermine just took off and didn't complete. You know, couldn't move forward with the Natural Bridge record. But yeah, so I guess it wasn't originally by design because he brought him back for the second record. But then after that he seemed set on that one record with one record without approach. But yeah, I mean, I tend to like the records with the Pavement guys a little more. And it's not to dismiss the other records. The other records are great. But I really think Malchus brings a lot to his records.
- [13:59]
A
Interesting.
- [14:00]
C
Yeah.
- [14:01]
A
Evan, how do you. Where are you at on that on this record? Well, on the Pavement versus the non Pavement records. You know, Natural Bridge, Bright Flight and Look Mountain being the non Pavements and then, you know, Starlight Walker, American Water and Tanglewood being the ones with I.
- [14:19]
B
Feel so Bright Flight doesn't have them. See you can. I don't think about it. I've never thought about it really, actually. I mean, I really kind of just think about Silver Jews in terms of David Berman lyricism and choice of song. I don't really think about the band much, to be honest. I. I kind of just pay attention to what the general kind of mood is per record and like the highs and lows emotionally that are there or not there on a given record. This one kind of feels like it's. It's kind of an intermediate one. Like it doesn't really have the. The darkest depths lyrically that there are to be had. But it definitely kind of implies a lot. And I think this one's kind of a really interesting exploration. What's the word? Explorative. It's a it. He's kind of doing a lot of interesting types of love song stuff here. Like kind of like advanced love song studies or something.
- [15:39]
A
Yeah, I. You know to just put my cards out on the Table. I tend to be kind of on the other side of you here, Doug, in terms of like, the Jews. Records to me that I really, you know, find affecting or, you know, most affecting. Not all of it is affecting, but like Natural Bridge, Bright Flight and then Lookout Mountain are the ones for me as great. I might still say American Water is the best record for whatever that counts, but the ones that I love, the ones that really do it for me. There's something about when Dave is just working on his own, and not even. Not on his own necessarily, but just with people that aren't Stephen Malchemists, because he's talked about this, the concept of feeling competitive and like, he, you know, he could have been in Pavement if he had wanted to, but he. I saw a quote when I was, you know, reading a couple different articles about this. Like, he just. He could never imagine himself as a sideman. Like, that wasn't his role. He couldn't, you know, it wasn't something he was going to do. He needed to do, you know, his own thing. And I feel like on those other records, the non Pavement records, to me, and maybe this is me just like kind of forming a narrative around the facts after the fact, but they kind of. They seem to be him sort of unbridled and sort of carefree and a little bit more loose and easy because he's able to just kind of be the guy, the jefe there in the recording studio without having to worry about, you know, other folks who wouldn't. Who aren't even necessarily, like, trying to challenge him necessarily. Right. Or like, steer him in another direction. But I just. I almost feel like the pres. Just the fact of, you know, like Stephen Malchemist's presence in some of these recording sessions, like, kind of puts him in a different mindset. Whether or not Malcolm is even trying to. Trying to do that, I don't know. It's a tricky concept.
- [17:28]
C
It's funny. I mean, you use the jefe descriptor description, but it's. Yeah, it's interesting to me because this record, Tangled Numbers, Malcolm is on it, but his voice isn't on it.
- [17:43]
A
Right.
- [17:43]
C
Like, you don't hear him singing the way he did in the two preceding. He's kind of been replaced. His voice has been replaced by Cassie. And you know something? I have the quote. I'm not going to pull it up. But Berm was talking about Tangled Numbers. Just. This is like most his record. He was very involved in the production. He said he didn't just sit back, listen to a playback and say, oh, yeah, that's good. Like, he really wants to put his stamp on that record. And it's kind of like him putting on his stamp on that record was taking Malcolm's voice off in some way. I mean, that's just one aspect of it, but just an observation I have on it. And also, you know, as I. I have a hard time tangling numbers. Like, as much as I love what Malchus does on the records, this record, I really struggle. Is that Malchus playing or is that Mike Fellows playing? Some of the songs are. I know, absolutely, it's Malchus. But, like, when I listen to, like, Punks in the Beer Light or Sometimes A Pony Gets Depressed, I'm like, it doesn't necessarily sound like Malchus. I mean, is that Malcolm or is it Mike Fellows? Right, because it's really kind of like, muscular playing that. I don't always associate Malchus with, who's one of my favorite guitarists, but he's not like, you know, cockroach guitarist or whatever. You know, he's emotive, you know, and these are like, you know, hard rock playing hard rock songs with hard rock playing.
- [19:11]
A
Did you ever see them? I mean, that's another element of this whole thing is like, this is the. This is when Silver Juice became a live act, you know, for an all too brief period of time. Did you ever catch any of those shows?
- [19:22]
C
Oh, it's a lot of things I'm ashamed about in my life, but this is.
- [19:27]
A
Don't mean to dredge up bad memories here.
- [19:29]
C
No, it's really sad. I didn't. During their touring years, I was upstate, and not a cool upstate like Syracuse. It's like grad school, law school. So, yeah, he wasn't playing Syracuse, Ithaca. But I think in 2008, I probably. I think I could get tickets to see, like, Williamsburg, the Music Hall Williamsburg show, which I heard is also closing or something. But anyway, I did not see them. And it's a goddamn shame. I'm really embarrassed by it and regret not having done it.
- [20:01]
A
You're not the only one in. In such a position. I had ticket. I think I probably said this on every Silverdews episode we've ever done, but I had tickets for the the Woods Is Fest, you know, in 2019, where they didn't even announce Purple Mountains, but they were going to be, like, a surprise headliner. And when I got to woods this, I still went. Obviously, they had printed up. They'd done a screen print of the poster that you could buy, and Purple Mountains was on there. And this was obviously several weeks after David had left us.
- [20:32]
C
Yeah, I had tickets to the Kingston show, the opening show, and then the two Brooklyn shows. But. Yeah, we know. Wasn't meant to be.
- [20:43]
A
No, it wasn't. Hopefully he's up there playing. Playing good rock shows for God.
- [20:49]
B
Yeah. Yeah, he did that while he was here, I think. And they're still valid. Yeah, they were recorded, for goodness sake.
- [20:59]
A
Well, before we get into the record, which, you know, we're getting. We're getting close to an indelible part of every Silver Juice album is, of course, the COVID of the album and the Silver Jew's wordmark. You know, the font choice, where it's positioned.
- [21:14]
B
The corporate logo.
- [21:15]
A
That's right, exactly. I guess this would be Silver Jew's logo 3.0. Right. Because the first two records are basically the same. The second two are that same font. And then this is number three. And it is, of course, a photograph by the great William Eccleston. What do we think of the COVID of Tanglewood Numbers?
- [21:33]
B
I love a William Eggleston photo on an album cover. I always love to see that. You know, you love to see the. Some of the great album covers have that. You know, the. The Big Star album. Or is it more than one Big Star album?
- [21:49]
A
It's definitely going with the red. Yeah, the red light thing.
- [21:53]
C
Radio City. And he also did Alex Chilton. Like Flies on Sherbert. That's another pretty famous one. Like a Cadillac with dolls on it.
- [22:01]
B
Spoon transference. That's a. That's an Eggleston.
- [22:04]
A
Wait, the Spoon Fearance episode or record.
- [22:08]
B
Is a William Eggleston photo.
- [22:10]
A
Wow. I didn't realize that.
- [22:11]
C
It looks more modern, though. But it's. I guess it's from the seventies.
- [22:14]
B
It's from the. I think it might even be from the early the late 60s.
- [22:17]
A
I just assumed that was like a picture of, like, a young Brit Daniel for some reason. But now that I'm looking at it, it doesn't look anything like him.
- [22:24]
B
It's actually like. Yeah, I think it's from like 67, 68 or something. But yeah, I mean, this. I didn't know that this one was, though. I didn't know that Tanglewood Numbers was a William Eggleston photo. But one thing about him that is great. I mean, he's just like super cool as an artist. I love him. But he. He claims anyway to have not ever taken multiples of anything. Like, he. He sees something, takes the photo, and does not take more than one shot of it. It's like if there's something he's looking at that has a spark of something. He takes that photo and then keeps looking, which is why I think so many of them feel that way. There's like. There's something immediate but kind of ineffable about them because they are just like. This is an interesting thing to look at. I don't know why.
- [23:20]
A
What are we working with on the COVID of this record?
- [23:22]
C
It's a bar in Memphis. And the back cover, I just. You saw me chat. I checked the credits. The back cover is also an Eggleston shot, which.
- [23:31]
A
Oh, wow.
- [23:32]
C
Doesn't strike me as an Eggleston shot.
- [23:34]
B
This looks very, very purple mountains.
- [23:38]
A
Yeah, it does have that.
- [23:39]
C
Yeah, that's a. That's great observation.
- [23:42]
B
It looks like the All My Happiness is Gone single art.
- [23:47]
A
God, this is great. I love this.
- [23:49]
C
But what it like, he. Berman in interview says he only noticed it later, but it's the front covers. Memphis. The back cover, this is supposedly Chattanooga or near Chattanooga, and then it was recorded in Nashville.
- [24:01]
A
So this is the Tennessee record.
- [24:03]
C
Exactly.
- [24:03]
A
And doesn't even have Tennessee, the song.
- [24:05]
C
On it, but Tanglewood numbers TN Tennessee.
- [24:09]
A
Aha. Well, that was Tanglewood was the street that he was living on at this time. Right.
- [24:16]
C
If not directly on Tanglewood Drive was near his home. Because they always. In silver. Dewey. He always talks about walking down Tanglewood and coming to these big life decisions.
- [24:25]
A
Yeah. There was like a retaining wall at the end of the street or something. Or there's like a freeway overpass.
- [24:31]
C
Yeah, that's right.
- [24:32]
A
I have something along those lines. It's a picture, you know, just everyone can look it up themselves. But it's a picture in a bar. Presumably taken sitting at the bar. Like on the other side of the bar, you've got these busts. They appear to be, what, bronze? They're really bronze imitation busts of jfk, MLK, and rfk. The first one, not the current. The good one, not the. Not the frogman.
- [24:59]
B
I don't think anyone calls him Bobby Kennedy. Bobby Kennedy.
- [25:04]
A
Bobby Kennedy Junior. He's Junior.
- [25:07]
C
A lot of things.
- [25:08]
A
Yeah, it's a. It's. It's an interesting photo. It's very casual.
- [25:14]
B
Very.
- [25:15]
A
Just kind of like there's a je ne sais quoi to. Almost seems like something that might have been composed, you know, and artfully arranged, but obviously, to me, at least seems like it wasn't. It's.
- [25:28]
B
Well, it is kind of a. I mean, that's. That's the thing about it is it was arranged by whoever is the proprietor of this bar. But because of the way that it's shot, like, I think that there's kind of like an alter quality to the way that the photo is like. I mean, you literally do have like the busts of three slain American icons of history. And then there's the cash register. Like a very old. Is it a cash register? It's an old.
- [25:56]
C
It looks like it.
- [25:56]
B
Yeah, really old cash register with like a kind of like a library reading light above it. And yeah, it has. It was like emitting a very warm glow. I love the. The choice to have the font or the silver juice text be that bluish, that like off bluish color because like.
- [26:17]
A
Teal, like dark teal almost.
- [26:19]
B
It kind of has similar tones to like what's on the ceiling in the picture of like these different panels of, you know, the shitty foam paneling that buildings have. I don't know, it's. There's something. I feel like it. It speaks to the thing that I love anyway about so much silver juice stuff is like the everyday thing being kind of concretized as like, this is beautiful, this is art.
- [26:47]
C
And that. That's like what Eggleston was known for. Just like turning the ordinary into art. I mean, it totally works. I love it. I think it's probably my favorite cover. Well, American Water is pretty badass.
- [26:59]
A
American Water is like, you know, it's like almost exists beyond just silver Jews, you know, I kind of love this along with the bright flight cover. You know, they're both just such like sort of low key, casual, you know, almost like anti covers. Bright flight especially. I mean, this is a William Eggleson photo, but the sort of like, I.
- [27:24]
B
Don'T know, lomography, it feels like that one has kind of like a early like Urban Outfitters, like when everyone had those cameras.
- [27:34]
A
What, the bright flight one? Yeah, it's. That is maybe my favorite of all of them. It's so good. Just like the anti cover element to that and then paired with the backing. Anyways, I just, you know, just these photos that lack so much, you know. And when I say lack so much, I mean they lack like human beings. They lack like a depth of field. They lack really any sense of drama necessarily. But that's all, you know, compared with this music that is so like there's so much of a human being and drama and depth of field in this music. I love the kind of. The tension between that it's kind of.
- [28:13]
B
The least fussed up. I mean, not that I would call the other ones fussy. But they all pretty much, except for Bright Flight and this one have some kind of collage or illustration aspect to them. Definitely the early ones, pretty much all of them. Yeah, they have some kind of processing or manipulating of a picture. And this one is just the photo, as is Bright Flight.
- [28:42]
A
But yeah, it's just a crop on the picture.
- [28:44]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [28:45]
C
I mean, I just think Berman was strong. Like aesthetically he really knew what he wanted, like what he wanted from that standpoint. And I think he always did it well. Like even the Purple Mountains artwork.
- [29:00]
A
It's fantastic.
- [29:00]
B
Yeah, it's great.
- [29:01]
C
It's incredible. He really had a strong sense for the visual as well and for style.
- [29:07]
B
I mean, his. It's like an extension of just the way he dressed. Like, I feel like this matches his is a static sense in that way too. Like he. He's a great dresser. He was a great. He was a great. He knew how to. He just really dressed like himself all the time.
- [29:26]
C
Yeah, he was one of my style icons. I'd have to say like 70, mid-70s, Neil Young and Dylan. Like just a blazer and a cowboy shirt. That's like my. The look I go for. That's the look I've been living for about 20 years, you know, despite my wife's protests.
- [29:43]
A
You can't, you can't beat that in some cases.
- [29:45]
C
I know.
- [29:47]
A
I love, mean the fact obviously that Eggleston is like sort of an artist of the south, you know, and Berman of course, is a, you know, I guess not like the Deep south necessarily, but, you know, associated with the South. Tennessee is, you know, certainly exists as a Southern state in the popular imagination. And this record is not particularly. Well, I don't know, I guess I'd be curious to hear you guys opinion. You know, Bright Flight is the one that I really associate as like the southern record. It's got, you know, it's got literally the song Tennessee on it. It's got a very, you know, kind of Nashville classicism to it. And this has got pieces of that, but it is a little more visceral, it is a little harder, it is a little more urbane in certain situations. But so I think the choice to use an Eggleston photo here and kind of conjure that that place or the imaginary version of that place to contextualize all these songs, to me that's, that's an important part of, of the, of the choice here.
- [30:52]
C
Yeah, I mean, the biggest, like to me the most country song is probably Animal Shapes. I think that's got a great little country groove to. It starts with that fiddle intro. But you're right, it's not all all over the place like Bright Flight. It is. Or even, you know, Some American Water has that. That country aspect to it. But, yeah, I see what you're saying.
- [31:17]
A
Just kind of speaks to the outsider status of the whole thing. Obviously, certainly at this time in 2005, at this point today, there's the Nashville, or excuse me, I guess there is the Nashville scene. There's also the Asheville scene. I feel like country rock is definitely sort of on vogue in large part due to David Berman's influence. Perhaps you see that in the MJ Lindermans or the Friendships or the Waxahachies or whoever. But in 2005, that was not. That was. What was it? That was like dance punk. That was DFA Records. That was like, you know, the second Interpol album or whatever. That was the beginning of Animal Collective and Grizzly Bear and stuff. So this was. He was kind of just worlds away from the entire zeitgeist of indie rock circa 2005.
- [32:08]
C
Yeah, he really was. And in my, like, you know, again, follower, Pitchfork reading way, he actually made it okay for me to, like, listen to country music. I read those interviews.
- [32:20]
B
I thought it was okay to not be weird.
- [32:25]
C
Something like that. But, yeah, I just remember this one interview where he's talking about, like, Charlie Rich Behind Closed Doors was one of his favorite records of all time. And at that point, Charlie Rich was just a Seinfeld joke. Like, hey, like George Costanza singing, have you seen the most beautiful girl in the world? But I love that record. And he gave me. He gave me permission to listen to it. And from that, I mean, actually, I'm kind of. I'm neglecting Bob Dylan's influence. And I, too, because he was always very open about, like, love and country music and his relation with Johnny Cash. So, yeah, between Berman and Dylan, I've become a pretty big country fan over the last 20 years. I listen to a lot of country music, not the new stuff, but you could say it about almost any kind of music I listen to. It's not the new stuff. It's the old stuff.
- [33:21]
A
You didn't listen. Look who you're talking to here. Yeah, yeah, we've been there. Yeah. I remember when we were putting on our Jews event last year, the David Berman event, where we screened Silver Jew and had some readings. I was putting together a playlist of a bunch of songs that David expressed admiration for or stuff that sort of seemed influenced by him or that would go on to influence him into the future. And there was one. I don't even remember the name of the song. I could pull it up on the playlist if I cared to, but there was a Kenny Chesney song that David expressed admiration for and that I put.
- [34:02]
C
On a lot of things different. Sorry to interrupt.
- [34:04]
A
There you go.
- [34:04]
C
I do a lot of things different.
- [34:06]
A
Look, this is why we got you on here. Thank you for that. But I found myself thinking when I was constructing this playlist, like, there is no fucking universe in which, were it not for David Berman explicitly saying, I dig this Kenny Chesney song, that I would have ever found myself putting a Kenny Chesney song on a playlist. And yet here I was doing that. And you know what? It's a great song.