The Beach Boys: HOLLAND

Summary

Jokermen Podcast Summary: The Beach Boys: HOLLAND (February 10, 2025)

Hosted by Jokermen, the Jokermen Podcast delves deep into the intricate world of The Beach Boys, exploring every facet of their music and legacy. In the episode titled "The Beach Boys: HOLLAND," released on February 10, 2025, the hosts engage in an extensive discussion about The Beach Boys' ambitious yet tumultuous "Holland" album. This summary encapsulates the key points, discussions, insights, and conclusions drawn throughout the episode.

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1. Introduction to "Holland"

The episode kicks off with the hosts welcoming listeners back and shifting focus from lighter topics to a deep dive into The Beach Boys' "Holland" album.

Host 1 [08:38]:
"Let me see where to begin, where best to begin."

2. The Decision to Record in Holland

The hosts explore the circumstances leading The Beach Boys to record their album in Holland in 1973, highlighting internal band dynamics and external influences.

• Group Consensus and Leadership: The decision was not solely attributed to Jack Riley but was a collective move aimed at revitalizing the band's creative spirit. The group sought a fresh environment away from Los Angeles, citing fewer distractions like traffic and drugs.

  Host 2 [08:49]:
  "Someone comes up with the wise idea, let's get back to our roots..."

• Brian Wilson's Reluctance: Brian Wilson, the band's creative cornerstone, was notably resistant to the move. His hesitation stemmed from his preference for staying close to home and his troubled state at the time.

  Host 2 [14:17]:
  "Brian strip was a, quote, miasma of false starts and silences."

3. Establishing the Recording Studio in Holland

The hosts delve into the logistical nightmare of setting up a recording studio in a foreign country, emphasizing the exorbitant costs and the impracticality of the endeavor.

• Technical Challenges: Building a custom studio from scratch involved disassembling a Los Angeles studio, shipping expensive equipment, and reconstructing it in a converted barn in Bambrugge, Netherlands.

  Host 2 [20:17]:
  "Preposterous. Just preposterous... unbelievably insane decisions."

• Financial Implications: The move was financially draining, with the band spending eight months and significant resources without immediate returns.

  Host 2 [16:35]:
  "This is really kind of by the end of this episode. This episode might as well be subtitled the Ballad of Jackson Jack Riley."

4. Recording Process and Band Dynamics

The episode highlights the band's living arrangements, transportation issues, and the strain the project placed on interpersonal relationships.

• Living in Holland: The band members and their entourages rented multiple houses around Amsterdam, dealing with the challenges of daily communication and transportation.

  Host 2 [15:54]:
  "All their equipment had to be disassembled, put back together, and the shipping costs must have been just ridiculous, astronomical."

• Jack Riley's Management: Jack Riley's mismanagement and possible ulterior motives are discussed, leading to tensions within the band.

  Host 2 [123:42]:
  "Jack Riley was also, like, a crook and a charlatan and, like, mismanaged their money..."

5. Warner Brothers' Reception and Intervention

Upon completion, Warner Brothers' negative reception of the "Holland" album is examined, along with the intervention by Van Dyke Parks which led to the addition of the iconic "Sail On, Sailor."

• Album Rejection: Warner Bros. rejected the album for lacking a single, labeling it as "soft," which devastated the band financially and emotionally.

  Host 2 [17:18]:
  "Warner Brothers immediately rejected the LP for lack of a single. It was bloodshed, said a Warner executive."

• Van Dyke Parks' Contribution: To salvage the situation, Van Dyke Parks was brought in to contribute a song, resulting in the addition of "Sail On, Sailor," which became one of the standout tracks of the album.

  Host 2 [25:38]:
  "Sail On, Sailor was the last masterpiece to come out of Brian Wilson and the Beach Boys."

6. Analysis of Key Songs

The hosts provide an in-depth analysis of several pivotal tracks from the "Holland" album, discussing their composition, thematic elements, and reception.

• "Sail On, Sailor": Celebrated as a classic Beach Boys track, especially notable for Blondie Chaplin's vocals. The song's success contrasted sharply with the rest of the album.

  Host 2 [25:56]:
  "I think this album is fantastic. I. I don't disagree. I think that there's a lot of good stuff on the album..."

• "Steamboat": A Dennis Wilson composition that blends poetic lyrics with atmospheric instrumentation, capturing the essence of complex interpersonal dynamics within the band.

  Host 2 [37:14]:
  "It's a Dennis forward... Another Hallmark classic Dennis Wilson composition about a boat."

• "California Saga": A multipart suite that lyrically explores California's landscapes and cultural touchstones, praised for its poetic resonance and musical cohesiveness.

  Host 2 [42:11]:
  "This is Cool Mike, for sure. This is definitely cool."

• "Only with You": A minimalist yet emotional Dennis Wilson composition, critiqued for Carl's vocals overshadowing Dennis's intended delivery.

  Host 2 [35:10]:
  "All I want to do... It's true, I wanna spend my life with you."

• "Funky Pretty": Serving as the album's closer, it's appreciated for its infectious rhythm and poetic lyrics, though opinions on sequencing vary.

  Host 2 [111:46]:
  "Funky Pretty... It's exactly the kind of stuff you would expect."

7. Themes and Musical Direction

The discussion touches upon the album's thematic focus on nature, ecology, and introspection, marking a departure from The Beach Boys' earlier surf-centric themes.

• Ecological and Poetic Themes: The album integrates themes of environmentalism and poetic narratives, influenced by figures like Robinson Jeffers and Van Dyke Parks.

  Host 1 [52:51]:
  "Songs about nature, songs about the world in an observational, romantic frame..."

• Musical Innovation vs. Practicality: While the album showcased ambitious musical experimentation, it struggled commercially due to its divergence from mainstream Beach Boys' sounds.

  Host 2 [35:10]:
  "It's a complete clusterfuck over there in Holland and is a complete waste of money and time."

8. Aftermath and Band Fallout

The episode concludes by examining the fallout post-release, including financial strain, internal conflicts, and the eventual hiatus from recording.

• Financial and Emotional Toll: The failed album led to significant financial losses and strained relationships within the band, particularly between Carl Wilson and Jack Riley.

  Host 2 [123:44]:
  "Carl made the trip back to Holland and fired Riley."

• Band's Hiatus: Following the album's poor sales, The Beach Boys went on a three-year hiatus, culminating in further changes and challenges for the group.

  Host 2 [122:01]:
  "They go on hiatus basically as a record making concern for the next three years."

9. Conclusion and Host Reflections

In wrapping up, the hosts reflect on the complexity and ambition of the "Holland" album, acknowledging its artistic merits despite its commercial failure.

• Artistic Merit vs. Commercial Success: The hosts recognize "Holland" as one of The Beach Boys' great records, rich in artistic experimentation, even if it wasn't well-received at the time.

  Host 1 [121:38]:
  "I don't think that the second half is that great. But it's also a record that's definitely worth listening to."

• Enduring Legacy: Decades later, "Holland" stands as a testament to The Beach Boys' willingness to push creative boundaries, offering listeners a nuanced and layered musical experience.

  Host 2 [121:34]:
  "Holland. One of the great Beach Boys records. Easy."

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Notable Quotes:

• Host 2 [25:38]:
  "Sail On, Sailor was the last masterpiece to come out of Brian Wilson and the Beach Boys."

• Host 2 [35:10]:
  "It's a complete clusterfuck over there in Holland and is a complete waste of money and time."

• Host 2 [42:11]:
  "This is Cool Mike, for sure. This is definitely cool."

• Host 2 [52:51]:
  "Songs about nature, songs about the world in an observational, romantic frame..."

• Host 2 [121:34]:
  "Holland. One of the great Beach Boys records. Easy."

---

Conclusion:

"Holland" represents a pivotal moment in The Beach Boys' history, marked by ambition, creative exploration, and internal turmoil. The Jokermen Podcast's detailed analysis underscores the album's significance, offering listeners a comprehensive understanding of its creation, challenges, and lasting impact on The Beach Boys' legacy.

Transcript

[Host 1]

This could be considered a track. Not really, though.

[Host 2]

We don't want to do that.

[Guest]

This is a little intro, you know.

[Host 2]

All right, here we go.

[Host 1]

Countdown time.

[Host 2]

One, two, three, go. Okay, boys, do it.

[Host 1]

Welcome back. Welcome to Jokerman. I mean, welcome to Root Beer Report.

[Host 2]

Welcome to Root Beer Report.

[Host 1]

Today we have. What's it called? Root beer. It's called Maine Root, Maine Root.

[Host 2]

Maine root, Root beer.

[Host 1]

So I assume it's from Maine.

[Host 2]

Made under the authority of maine root. Berwick, Maine. Berwick is the city. 03901 mademoot.com, made in USA. Attractive bottle. I kind of like this. It's got sort of a crunchy 90s, late 90s thing to it. Exactly.

[Host 1]

Which, like the typewriter.

[Host 2]

Exactly. Like, you know, what is it? This looks like Bob Dylan's Greatest Hits Volume 3 to me.

[Host 1]

Yeah. Or I was thinking of what's the Lou Reed album that's like, got some of that typewriter. Well, it's not like typewriting, like, not necessarily typewriter loss. Yeah, well, there's magic and loss, and then there's like. I feel like around that time, there was just, like, some stuff with, like. Maybe I'm thinking of, like, the cut and paste sort of ransom note, like, aesthetic. I don't know. Anyway, it's red. It seems like the 90s.

[Host 2]

It's attractive to me. It's mostly brown, sort of a taupe. And it looks like the font is also, like, a dark brown. So it's brown on brown. Dig it. And then there's this green.

[Host 1]

It's a root thing.

[Host 2]

Is that it? Is that a root? Is that what it is?

[Host 1]

That's roots.

[Host 2]

Okay.

[Host 1]

Which is. What are you eating over there?

[Host 2]

Cashews.

[Host 1]

You know, they're gonna hate you for that.

[Host 2]

Cashew. It's cash. Welcome to Cashew Report. Mmm. Roasted salted cashews. Two stars. Pretty good.

[Host 1]

It really sounds like you're eating cashews over here. That's the effect of that.

[Host 2]

Root beer reported a safe space for ingestion of all manner of food and beverage.

[Host 1]

Sure. Everyone can. They can skip it if they have a problem.

[Host 2]

That's right.

[Host 1]

That's true. In the glass.

[Host 2]

You've already poured it. I haven't opened one.

[Host 1]

Yeah, well, it's because you've got these cashews that are taking up all your attention. This is a. It's got an amber. An amber hue.

[Host 2]

Looks like it's got a head to it.

[Host 1]

To me, it actually really does.

[Host 2]

That's impressive. A lot of the ones that we've had recently, I Feel like have been on the flatter side. Let's see, what do we got on mine? Ooh, listen to that. Mmm, looks nice. Yeah, I've got a head too. This is great. I love to see a head. Mm. On the nose. Okay. Not too cloyingly sweet, scent wise, at least. We'll see about the.

[Host 1]

There's a menthol quality. Yeah, mentholated.

[Host 2]

Mentholated cigarettes. That's right. Mentholated root beer. All right. Chuglog.

[Host 1]

Hey, not bad.

[Host 2]

Yeah. See, honestly, the foam, the head makes a difference. I like when you. When you can take a swig and you get a little bit of that nice frothy element off the top, and then the rest of the, you know, cool, smooth root beer beneath it. Cool, cool. Root beer. That's a very. That's an impressive beverage to me.

[Host 1]

I like how, how it finishes. There's a slight bitterness. It's very balanced. It's not. It's a good example of a root beer that's not cloyingly overly sweet.

[Host 2]

It is sweet, but it's not like.

[Host 1]

It's not too sweet.

[Host 2]

It's not over the top. Yeah, exactly.

[Host 1]

How much sugar does it have, actually, on that note?

[Host 2]

I don't know.

[Host 1]

Let's see, let's see.

[Host 2]

35 grams. Okay, so I think that is a little bit less. I think we have. Typically, root beer is in like the 40, 45s. Exactly. So this is. This is, you know, I gotta say, pretty impressed with Maine root root beer. I'm honestly. I was telling you off mic before we got on this. I've had this root beer before. I had it in Maine this past summer actually, for the first time. And I thought it was good. Not knock my socks off. I'm very impressed with this coming back at this point. It's. This is good stuff.

[Host 1]

Yeah, I like it too. I. I think that this is very drinkable and I would. I would recommend it. I think that it's got a. Was it. It's just got regular sugar, organic cane sugar, fair trade, certified organic cane sugar. Do we know anything more about the story of this root beer? I am just kind of curious about main root root beer as a. As a brand. What do they have, like an ethos rooted in goodness?

[Host 2]

More fair trade, less trademarks. That's their motto, the one that started it all.

[Host 1]

Handcrafted soda made with extracts of wintergreen, clove and anise. Okay, so that's. Yeah, it. It is one of the ear. More herbaceous type root beers.

[Host 2]

They do have a Whole line of different. Wow. They have a sarsaparilla too.

[Host 1]

Now what does it say in there about what, what that is? Because this is a, a confusing topic, I think for many. What is the difference between sarsaparilla and root beer?

[Host 2]

They actually have a description right here. Impressively on their website. Sarsaparilla, they go S A R S A P A R I L L A. Remember, it's some, some confusion, some contention over how it's actually spelled Sarsaparilla, A lighter bodied brother to our super popular root beer. The flavor profile has less cloves allowing the taste of wintergreen to be showcased. So do fans agree it's the best they've ever had?

[Host 1]

I'm very interested in that.

[Host 2]

That description sounds like it's written by someone who knows what they're talking about when it comes to root beer.

[Host 1]

I like that. Wow. And they've got a lot of other drinks. They've got lemon lime, they've got gingerbrew mandarin orange blueberries, Maine blueberry soda.

[Host 2]

Maine root blueberry soda. Wow.

[Host 1]

Yeah, that's like very hyper regional, of course, but the rest are kind of like classic, you know, they have one called Mexicane Cola, which I suppose is their, you know, version of Mexican Coke. Seems very good. It's got, I, I'm, I'm all in.

[Host 2]

I'm a fan on this.

[Host 1]

Three stars.

[Host 2]

Three stars. Absolutely. Three stars for the beverage, three stars for the philosophy, three stars for the whole kind of product line here. I gotta, we gotta get this sarsaparilla.

[Host 1]

Yeah, yeah, definitely. I'm glad somebody can give me a description of at least one sarsaparilla where I feel like I've not really encountered that anywhere else. It's just like, oh, you know, sarsaparilla. It's like root beer.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

And I'm like, well, what do you mean it's like root beer?

[Host 2]

If it's like root beer, why is there sarsaparilla and also why is there separately root beer if it's like root beer? There should only be one. But in this case they're explaining, hmm, here's why there's sarsaparilla and here's what's different between it and the root beer.

[Host 1]

I've got a bottle of sarsaparilla, Sioux City Sarsaparilla in my fridge right now. But that's for another day.

[Host 2]

This has been Root Beer Report.

[Host 1]

We should have done a soda from Holland today. We should have done a what?

[Host 2]

What? Yeah, can you tell us all about the sodas over there?

[Host 1]

No, no, The Danish sodas.

[Host 2]

Root beer. Tasty. Yeah, it's Holland, folks.

[Host 1]

Yeah, it's Holland.

[Host 2]

The country, the nation, and also the Beach Boys album. All right, I'll put the cashews.

[Host 1]

Yeah, put one away.

[Host 2]

We're out of root beer. I have to stop eating. 1973. Here we go.

[Host 1]

Surf Holland.

[Host 2]

Surf is not up in Holland.

[Host 1]

So why are they in Holland, boy?

[Host 2]

Well, you know, there's some lore on this one, I gotta say. Let me see where to begin, where best to begin.

[Host 1]

Jack Riley, he's at the bottom of this.

[Host 2]

Oh, he sure is. Jack Riley is in. This is really kind of by the end of this episode. This episode might as well be subtitled the Ballad of Jackson Jack Riley.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

So I guess as we covered last time on the Carl and the Passions episode, everyone's sort of, like, doing their own thing. The vibes are bad. Brian Wilson is lost in the circus maximus. It's a challenging kind of situation in the Beach Boys Corporation at this moment in time. And so the band is at risk. Everyone's having a hard time, but, you know, they're still trying to be the Beach Boys, make money, yada, yada. And so someone comes up with the wise idea, let's get back to our roots, let's collect ourselves and really kind of put together a collaborative team effort here. And it just so happened that, you know, Holland, you know, was chosen to be the site of this album and this effort, you know, there's a whole bunch of stories of them. They tried to, like, they did a tour there and they tried to get a show there, you know, get to a show after flying to London, and they had a hard time getting there. And then they didn't get to this concert until five in the morning. And, you know, the audience was all excited to see them when they showed up, literally at 5 in the morning, apparently. Anyways, they had a good time there. They decided, all right, we're making a new record, we're going to go back to Holland, and we're all going to be. The Beach Boys are going to live in Holland and make this record. I've got some quotes from both Stephen Gaines and from David Leaf here. Stephen Gaines first tells us, while Jack Riley has been blamed for the decision to move to Holland, it was the group's general consensus that a change, a move from Los Angeles, would be refreshing and creative. In Holland, there was no traffic, fewer drugs, and a place where the most exciting entertainment was a choice of fewer. Yeah, it doesn't say no drugs, but fewer and a place where the most exciting entertainment was a choice of Flipper, Zorro or Rod McEwen. I don't even know who that is on television at night. However, brother Brian said he did not want to go. Shocking no one here. Brian had not gone far from home for more than a day in many years. We'll come back to Brian in a moment. The wives and children of the rest of the Beach Boys were more than happy to be off to Holland, where the surf was never up. I stole that line from Stephen Gaines. The move began early in spring of 1973. Eventually, the entourage included Dennis Wilson, Barbara, his wife, and their son, Carl, and Annie, his wife and their two sons, Audrey Wilson, mother of the Beach Boys, Annie's brother, Billy Hinch, Carl's housekeeper and his two dogs, Mike Love, and his. His third wife, Tamara. We're already onto Mike's third wife. And the Beach Boys have only been a band for 10 years. And their maid, Al Jardine and his wife and their maid, Ricky Fitzar and his wife and her parents, Blondie Chaplin and his girlfriend, engineer Steve Moffat, Moffat's secretary, her son, engineer Gordon Rudd and his wife, friend and road manager John Parks and his girlfriend, Tom Gellert, Jack Riley's friend, Russ Mackey, who is being billed as photographer and traveling attache. We'll come back to this character as well. Jack Riley, secretary Carol Hayes and her husband and a PR man from Hollywood, Bill DeSimone.

[Host 1]

You got all that and not Bruce? At least there's not Bruce.

[Host 2]

Bruce is gone. Remember his. What was. What was it again? His life way? The bad vibes from his life ways or something?

[Host 1]

Yeah, his life. His life choice. He did seem to be, at least temporarily insane based on the anecdote that they gave, where he was, like, rambling incoherently on top of a recording session.

[Host 2]

Yeah, for Rooftop Harry or whatever that song was that Jason brought.

[Host 1]

Great song hearsay, anyway. I mean, we don't know, but, yeah, that's insane that they brought that many people with them to Holland.

[Host 2]

Quite a crew, but that's not even the least of it. Coming back to Brian. David Leif now says Brian Wilson, entering one of the worst periods of his life, received the unwelcome news that the group had decided to record their. Their next album in Holland. And like it or not, Brian was going along. For a man who was really only at home when he was at home, the trip was not something to look forward to. As Audrey Wilson, again, his mother remembers, Brian didn't want to go to Holland. He didn't leave when everybody left, the story of how Brian finally got there was recounted in the group's Holland booklet. There's a big long series of liner notes that are out there that I encourage everyone to take a look at, which was a history of the entire project according to that tale. Brian's trip was quote, they say this in, in the liner notes for this album when they tell the story of this album. Brian strip was a, quote, miasma of false starts and silences. His wife, kids and housekeeper went over first. Twice Brian got as far as the airport and turned back. The third time he appeared to get on the plane, a phone call went through to Amsterdam and confirmed it. But three hours after the plane landed, there was still no sign of him. A search of the aircraft yielded Brian's ticket and passport. Abandoned on his seat, oblivious to the panic, Brian had shuffled off the plane and fell asleep on a couch in the duty free lounge of LAX where he was eventually found.

[Host 1]

So, wow, was this a private plane?

[Host 2]

I don't think so. I think it was. I mean he was probably flying first class, but I believe he was, you know, it was some. He got on the plane, someone said, Brian's on the plane, tell him he's coming. And then the plane shows up and there's, there's no.

[Host 1]

These days you can't do that this, this day and age certainly you can't just be like, I've got to go.

[Host 2]

I got to go to the bathroom. Let me get off the.

[Host 1]

I want to go to the bathroom in the airport. I want to go to the duty free for a second.

[Host 2]

I need a duty free milkshake. Let me off. Wow. Boy. So, you know, challenging to get Brian over there. I think as we've established at this point, Brian is not in the greatest headspace and so frankly, the entire band and you know, corporate apparatus of the Beach Boys forcing him to relocate to Holland. Shitty move on everyone's part. Not the least of it though. So once everyone's over there in Holland. The group had started out living in hotels, were back to Stephen Gaines until more permanent accommodations could be found. In all, 11 houses were rented within a 30 mile radius of central Amsterdam. Brian and Marilyn moved to Laeran, Carl was in Hilversum, Mike and Al in Bloemendaal. Once settled, the group rented nine Mercedes, one Audi purchased, three Volkswagens and one van. Offices were set up at Jack Riley's duplex apartment. In the children's room, which was filled with stuffed animals on the table, not more than a foot and a half high, a Telex clattered away in the corner. Phone calls had to be placed through an international operator in the United States located, oddly enough, in Pittsburgh. So many calls were placed from Holland daily that the international operators knew the number by heart. So not only is everyone going to Holland to make this record, but like, they're in, like, basically their whole lives are being uprooted and transported halfway across the globe at radical expense.

[Host 1]

Yeah. All their equipment had to be disassembled, put back together, and the shipping costs must have been just ridiculous, astronomical.

[Host 2]

Well, we haven't even gotten to the equipment quite yet. But before we do, you know, it's just. It's. I mean, I guess this. This is. This jibes with. With what we know about the Beach Boys that, like, they were kind of not. Not the most. Oh, what's the best way to phrase this? Intelligent about their spending patterns and the expenses of things like this that are just preposterous on its face were not really factored out or considered when they were frugal.

[Host 1]

They weren't frugal.

[Host 2]

Precisely.

[Host 1]

It does say something that this happened. All of this happened because of the necessity for a vibe shift. Like, they just were in need of some kind of a different energy, a different vibe. And it was so important to Jack Riley and I guess to the group. They agreed that this extreme measure was taken. But in a sense, we all should recognize that this is a reaction to perhaps the reception of Karl and the Passions.

[Host 2]

Yeah, I mean, yeah.

[Host 1]

Or lack thereof.

[Host 2]

Yeah, I think lack thereof, certainly. But, I mean, you are right about that. Like, they could have done all of this and just stayed put. You know, they could have decided, hey, let's make a band record again. Let's all get on the same page and be in the studio together and try to do this collaboratively. And they could have just done that in Los Angeles.

[Host 1]

They could have done it or gone upstate, or it could have gone to Big Sur.

[Host 2]

Could have gone to San Francisco or something, but it could have gone to fucking New York. Whatever.

[Host 1]

Anywhere.

[Host 2]

Anywhere. They went to Holland.

[Host 1]

Hawaii.

[Host 2]

They could have gone to Hawaii. Yes, they went to Holland just basically on a whim. It's a little unclear. Some people have said Jack Riley. Some people have said Carl. Some people say all of the above. But ultimately they did all agree to do it and buy in, and it was. It was a disaster. As well, as we'll hear in a moment here from Stephen Gaines. Further, the Beach Boys originally hoped to use Dutch recording facilities, but either they were all booked or there were none that they liked. Instead, they decided to build their own studio in a converted barn in Bambruga. This was sheer folly, a nearly impossible, incredibly expensive idea. But the group rushed into it with total enthusiasm. Steve Moffat, the engineer of Carl and the Passions, was alerted in mid March to break down the studio at Bellagio Road, Brian's home, and ship over the 24 track quadraphonic console. Moffat was given a deadline of June 1st to reassemble the studio in Bambrugge, since none of the manufacturers in the United States could supply him with additional consoles and equipments. In time, he decided to try to create his own studio from scratch. The idea was to fashion a modern studio in Los Angeles, then disassemble it, ship it, and then reassemble it in Holland. Moffat constructed the new studio in the back of a 200 square foot warehouse in Santa Monica, where assemblers worked in shifts around the clock. Then each component was shipped separately to Amsterdam in crates, each of which cost $5,000 or more to ship.

[Host 1]

Yeah, we have a description on the actual album on the back itself. It's like, not to be overlooked. They wanted to make sure everyone knew how much effort was involved here.

[Host 2]

Does it actually say this on the record itself?

[Host 1]

Yeah, it says, recorded in Bambruga, the Netherlands, using a new Clover Systems custom quadraphonic console. 30 input channels with 16 output buses, 1000 position patch bay, 20 Dolby noise reduction units. Among microphones used Neumann, Sony, AKG, Shure and EV. Custom monitoring system utilized ME4 and JBL 4310 speakers. All equipment was designed specially for this project by Brother Records in Los Angeles, then flown to Holland for this recording recorded in stereophonic sound.

[Host 2]

Preposterous. Just preposterous. Like just on its face. Fucking insane. You're. You're. You're building a new studio in Los Angeles that's expensive and crazy enough, but not. You're doing that and then you're disassembling it and shipping it across the world and assembling it in a barn in the middle of fucking nowhere in Holland.

[Host 1]

You think they were doing this because of maybe the Grateful Dead, the wall of sound being like, hey, wow, look at that.

[Host 2]

Yeah, I mean, maybe we talked a little bit about that with Papademas on the show a couple weeks ago, and he made the point that, like, you know, as crazy and impressive as that was with the Dead, like, that was also impractical and was breaking down all the time. And they had two walls of sound, one of which would be set up at the next place, I guess. This is. Maybe this is just what's happening in rock music at this point. It's like maybe we're starting to hit diminishing returns in terms of exciting new breakthroughs, in terms of the style of music that's being made. And so it turns into more of a technological fascination element. Maybe we can make this music better and interesting and more exciting, not based on the quality of the music itself, but based on just the insane technical bullshit we can throw at. Just leads to just some absolutely insane on their face decisions, particularly by these guys at this time.

[Host 1]

But you can't argue with the results. Well, or you could maybe.

[Host 2]

Or you could. Exactly. I mean, so, you know, it's a complete clusterfuck over there in Holland and is a complete waste of money and time. Sink as well.

[Host 1]

I do want to be clear that from what I understand, anyway, maybe you're about to contradict this. I heard that Blondie Chaplin was quoted anyway saying that it was a very relaxed environment, that, like, the actual recording process was nice. Like they got to just kind of walk into this converted barn and they would like go to the pub later and they would like, have some lunch and like it was kind of just a more. Yeah, it was like a less cold and businesslike affair than maybe just going to the studios in Los Angeles. So to that end, it sounds like it worked out, at least in part.

[Host 2]

In part, yeah. No, no, I think that that's all true. You know, Brian. Brian. We'll talk about Brian separately when we talk about his element of things that was packaged with Holland but was distinguished from Holland as well. Mount Vernon Fairway, which we've gestured at a couple times. Anyways, besides Brian, everyone did have a good time in general. I think you're right about that. But like you just said a moment ago, like they could have done this. Like this didn't need to happen in Holland, you know, it did. And it's good that it, you know, it did bear some results, you know, to some extent. But it obviously, I think, put some stresses on the band in the long run, particularly when it came time to put the record out. Returning one more time to Stephen Gaines. When the Holland album was finally submitted to Warner Bros. For release, the company hated it. The only this is editorializing on the part of Gaines. The only outstanding part of the album was a small segment of the California saga and a pretty song called Clear Cool Water. Warner Brothers immediately rejected the LP for lack of a single. It was bloodshed, said a Warner executive. Everybody went wild. The Beach Boys had just Spent eight months in Holland gambling every penny they had, and each member of the group thought he had contributed a small masterpiece. Now, Warner's thought the album was, quote, soft. Mo Austin, head of Warner's at this time, suggested that perhaps the Beach Boys could turn to Da da da da Van Dyke Parks for help. At that time, Van Dyke was working for Warners in a staff position as director of Audio visual services, making $350 a week. Remember, we've talked about this in the past, but Van Dyke is there with Randy and Lenny Warrenker and stuff in their little kind of, you know, Warner's cool guy, songwriter, producer unit. So Mo awesome contacted Van Dyke and told him he was thinking about dropping the Beach Boys from Warner's altogether. Van Dyke said, mo, you can't do that. These boys have spanned presidencies. They're an important American institution. Thank you, Van Dyke. I agree. So David Burson came down to my office, Van Dyke's office, and play the record to prove it was no damn good. According to Burson, Van Dyke immediately said, I have the answer to your problems. It seemed that Van Dyke had in his possession a cassette of a song he had written with Brian Wilson on a recent visit to his house on Bellagio Road. What followed was a small masterpiece in league with heroes and villains and good vibrations. Again, this is editorializing on the part of Stephen Gaines. Sail On Sailor was the last masterpiece to come out of Brian Wilson and the Beach Boys, tacked on to Holland after the fact, Recorded in America as the lead single, as the first track. And with that, maybe that's where we can begin our discussion of this record. Van Dyke Parks supposed last masterpiece. Brian Wilson's supposed last masterpiece, Salon Sailor.

[Host 1]

Let's be real. What do you think about this album without. Without Ceylon Sailor?

[Host 2]

I think. Well, I mean, Salem Sailor is on the album. So, like, we. It's on the album. You know, it's part of the album. It's. It's there. We gotta. I think this album is fantastic.

[Host 1]

I. I don't disagree. I think that there's a lot of good stuff on the album, and we'll obviously talk about that in a moment. But I do think that without Ceylon Sailor, it is a hard sell to. Yeah, it's not. This carries so much. This song is, like, doing so much. And it's such a perfect intro song. It's such a great track one. It's like one of the best track ones they have.

[Guest]

Unsettled ocean through restful waters and deep commotion Often frightened unenlighted.

[Host 2]

Yeah, It's a great. It. You know, it. It's. It's very important that it's there. I agree. Especially because Steamboat, which we'll get to in a moment, was supposed to be track one.

[Host 1]

That's track one.

[Host 2]

I mean, I see. I understand Mo Austin listening to this record and starting with Steamboat and being just like, well, where's the hit? Where's the music? Where's the tunes? Where's the catchy riff here? Where's the Beach Boys shit? So thank God that he went to Van Dyke. Yeah, it's fantastic. I love this song. I think this is a total Beach Boys pantheon classic. Blondie Chaplin singing this song, notably. And I think what's cool about this song and contrast nicely with what we just talked about on Carl and the Passions, where that's when Blondie and Ricky came in for the first time. Like, remember we talked about those songs on that record, is like, almost kind of feeling like it was just another band. Like they were just the Flames or the Flame, whatever songs that were bolted on the Beach Boys record. And it wasn't all kind of integrated into one cohesive sound or feel. That is what they have achieved on this. This sounds like a 70s beach boys classic song, musically speaking, but it just so happens to be sung by Blondie Chaplin. And I think the way that they can kind of, like, put all of those influences together into one unit at this time, that's part of what makes this song magic.

[Host 1]

It's also thematically very cogent that it's a song about sailing, being a sailor. Sailing on.

[Host 2]

Is this the first Beach Boy song about sailing we've encountered?

[Host 1]

I'm sure there's other songs that kind of maybe mention it, but I don't think it's that common. I mean. Yeah, it's like we've gotten ones about just water itself before. We've gotten a song about plenty of surfing, Sailor.

[Host 2]

And there's the COVID of Summer Days and Summer Nights where they literally are.

[Host 1]

Sailing on a sailboat.

[Host 2]

But I don't think that there are any songs. I'm sure someone's going to tell us that we're wrong about this. But it seems like for fertile ground for the Beach Boys, the concept of sailing.

[Host 1]

Oh, well, there's a glaring emission, obviously, that we're not thinking about.

[Host 2]

What's that? Oh, Sloop. John B. Of course. Well, okay. Well, that one, you know, kind of doesn't count.

[Host 1]

Yeah, it's a. It's not an original anyway. Sail On, Sailor. It's about. Yeah. Being really. It's about being depressed. It's a. It's a. Or overcoming depression and malaise.

[Host 2]

A little bit like Long promise.

[Host 1]

Long promise Road. Yeah. Which, you know, it's a good thing for them to sing about. I'll just say that that's a good. That's good material for them because I feel like there's so many ways in which that is relevant to their story and what they're going through. Also just the times, the early 70s. There's. There's a lot in songs like that that is to be admired and that works. But especially having a song about sailing on the record where you have them literally in a foreign country is. It works very well that way, too.

[Host 2]

Totally. And I love the concept of them at this moment in time going to Van Dyke Parks as the commercial savior.

[Host 1]

For this guy come crawling back.

[Host 2]

The insane irony of that, of Van Dyke Parks being the complete villain of the Smile saga in terms of. Stick to the formula and column. Native ruins, Domino, yada, yada. Exactly. It's delicious. Delicious.

[Host 1]

And you've got Mike on this record. Mike is doing. I mean, for lack of a better word, the fruitiest stuff he's ever done. Like, the most florid and I wouldn't say overwritten. I mean, maybe he's going really out there in a way that I think Mike from some years hence or some years prior maybe, and hence would be. Not so into. Would be like, I'm not doing that.

[Host 2]

Yes.

[Host 1]

But this is just this one moment where he's. He's absolutely singing stuff that sounds as close as he's ever gotten outside of working with Van Dyke, to the lines that he hated that Van Dyke wrote. Like the crows. The. The crow cries. He's basically singing. He has another, like, extremely poetic, odd song about birds that he does on this album. But, yeah. Ceylon Sailor. I will also say it doesn't really sound like a Van Dyke park song to me. Like, I was actually surprised when I learned that. I thought for sure this was like Dennis and Karl or like some combination of the boys.

[Host 2]

I think that they're. You know, it doesn't sound like pure Van Dyke. I agree with you there. I think that it's detectable in certain phrases and rhymes here and there. I work the seaways, the gale swept seaways past shipwrecked daughters of wicked waters. The just kind of rhythm of some of those lines feels Van Dykey to me. But yeah, in general, I would agree that it doesn't feel as quite as impressionistic and painterly, for lack of a better Term as, you know, stuff from Song Cycle, as stuff from Smile, obviously. But as we talked about recently, this is the same time, just the year after Discover America is coming out. So Van Dyke himself has kind of chilled out, kind of mellowed in terms of a music maker and a songwriter.

[Host 1]

So, yeah, well, he's definitely focused or he's changed his focus. He's not making these extremely detailed diorama songs that are like multi dimensional tableaus about different periods in history. He's. He's making calypso music and doing covers of calypso songs. And also, yeah, here he's. He's able to. I think maybe the influence of that is that he's definitely capable of doing a very lean and catchy pop number.

[Host 2]

Totally. And the other part of that is like, it's not just Van Dyke Parks that has credit on, like, Jack Riley did some writing on this, Tanden Ulmer did some writing on this. Brian has credit on it, you know, for. For whatever that's worth. And Ray Kennedy does as well. So, like, you know, there's a lot of hands in the kitchen, a lot of cooks in the kitchen on this one. And so I think, like I was saying, you can see flashes of Van Dyke here and there in some of the language, but it's not. It's not a pure, you know, full Van Dyke experience from top to bottom, musically. It's also just like. Like I was saying at the beginning of this, I think they've really integrated Blondie and Ricky at this point and have found a way to take that kind of like, you know, rb, Beatles influence thing that they're so good at and like bolt on the big, beautiful Beach Boys harmonies, choruses, catchy earworm type of stuff. Because this song is a little bit, you know, it's a little funkier, it's a little more kind of modern and forward looking than I feel like a lot of Beach Boys music was at this moment in time. Just more kind of like something you would hear on rock radio, you know. And that in and of itself, I think is impressive that they're able to do something that's like this normal sounding, for lack of a better term, you know?

[Host 1]

Yeah. I mean, it's also just easily the catchiest thing that they've put out in a while. I mean, kind of.

[Host 2]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's definitely like the most successful as just like a pure piece of pop music, I would say. Compared to. Yeah, like, takes a mess of help to stand alone.

[Host 1]

Yeah, that's a catchy comparison. But weird, you know, Marcella.

[Host 2]

Marcella. Also catchy, but weird, you know, the shit on the Surf's up record, you know, Long Promise Road. Insanely catchy, but, like, also a little bit weird.

[Host 1]

Like, you know, it's a perfect balance because it's very. I mean, it is poetic in the way that Long Promise Road is. But it. It's just got such an obvious image at its center. Sale on SALE on Sailor and it's like it's. They found a new string to their bow that was always there. It's just like, oh, right, boat sailing. We haven't even touched that. But we've done every song about surfing possible. And then, like, this is. It feels like the beginning of a new. A genuine, unforced, new angle for them, whether it actually ends up being.

[Host 2]

And of course, it does not end up being that at all. But it does feel like that at this moment. I agree.

[Host 1]

Because the next song is.

[Host 2]

We're On a Boat Again.

[Host 1]

Definitely we're on a Boat Again. But so this is weird because this song feels much more like it would be a Van Dyke park song when I explain it and when I. When I listen to it, I feel like, oh, did he have something to do with this? Because it's so peculiar. But he didn't, actually.

[Host 2]

That's right. Steamboat.

[Guest]

The river's a bed of sweet berries and flowers Banks of thirsty lights Please be careful the stream is an eyeglass of heroes Bridged with bright replies.

[Host 2]

The.

[Guest]

Creek is a fun of forgiveness Winning every prize the steamboat of living out faithfully Right.

[Host 1]

It's a Dennis.

[Host 2]

It's a Dennis forward.

[Host 1]

It's. At least it's Dennis. But it's sung by.

[Host 2]

Sung by Carl.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Weird. Dennis does do some, like, backing vocals here, but, yeah, Dennis gets the right on this again. Jack Riley has his, you know, sticky little fingers as well on this one. But it's a Dennis composition. Carl sings. I don't really know why Carl sings it, to be honest. I like what Carl does with it, but it feels. It feels like a. Like a Dennis song to me. You know, it is weird. And I could see Van Dyke also doing something like this. But. But, like, remember we were talking about this on the last one? These Dennis songs that are kind of like slow and shapeless and, like, don't really have much melody to them. Like, that's exactly what's going on on Steamboat too. I really dig the song, but, I mean, I think it's another Hallmark classic Dennis Wilson composition about a boat. About a steamboat.

[Host 1]

It is about A boat. But, I mean, it's a very weird song. It's not. This isn't Sloop John B. This is, like. It's, like, about the idea of a steamboat. And it's, like an extremely abstract expression and exploration of that idea. It name drops the inventor of the steamboat.

[Host 2]

Fulton.

[Host 1]

Fulton. Mr. Fulton. But all the lyrics are, like, really flowery and strange. Like, what is it, like a timepiece for children?

[Host 2]

River's a dream and a waltz Time banks of Jasper glaze have a ball and sing the stream is a timepiece of children Bridged with crystal haze the creek is a trumpet of hard times Blowing tasty days Blowing tasty days that's some Jack Riley shit, right? That is not a Dennis Wilson verse.

[Host 1]

Yeah, probably not. I wonder what part of it actually is.

[Host 2]

If Dennis wrote this song, if it was purely a Dennis composition, it would just be like, ooh, big boat, I.

[Host 1]

Love you so Riding the big boat down the river with my baby I want to kiss her.

[Host 2]

I think the chorus is probably Dennis. Boat roll on forever River Roll forever.

[Host 1]

Boat roll on boat Roll on boat we'll keep your seat. Yeah, I like this part where it's, oh, don't worry, Mr. Fulton. We'll keep your steamboat rolling. And the. The music of it, apparently, it does. It samples an actual steamboat. There's, like a loop that. That. Is that in. I read somewhere that there's a steamboat sound actually in it. That there's, like. It's built upon a percussion loop that's like. Yeah, you can hear it. It's, like, chugging along in there.

[Host 2]

Oh, all right. I have not caught that, but that's great. I think it's a cool song. It's, like, very atmospheric, very vibey, and, like, sort of stone sounding to me, and not in, like, a psychedelic way, but just like, you know, like stone. You know, you're just, like, kind of smoking mids and looking at a boat. And then. This is the, like, kind of shitty dream you have about it.

[Host 1]

I like it. I mean, it's.

[Host 2]

I dig it.

[Host 1]

It's like. It's sort of inspired. I do think this record up till this point. I mean, I will get into it shortly. But the whole first side of this record definitely feels extremely cohesive in terms of what it's about, what it's doing. And so this song ends with a kind of as. It's like a peon to the. To the virtues of the steamboat and the romance of the steamboat of, like, Mark Twain's America.

[Host 2]

You ever been on a steamboat?

[Host 1]

Just the Disneyland One, The Disneyland one.

[Host 2]

Yeah, me too.

[Host 1]

Yeah, but I'm sure they probably had been on that too. And maybe that's the only thing.

[Host 2]

Yeah, that's probably true. Yeah.

[Host 1]

Anyway, California, oh, baby. That's another thing that, you know. Speaking of the Disneyland steamboat. So this is the next three songs.

[Host 2]

California Saga.

[Guest]

Cashmere hills filled with evergreens Flowing from the clouds down to meet the sea with granite cliff as a rifery Crimson sunsets and golden dawns Mother deer with their newborn fawns Under Big Sur sky.

[Host 1]

Alan Jardine, composer of California Saga. It says on here. Yeah, it does say who did what. On the back it says Dennis Wilson, composer. Only with you, Steamboat. Alan Jardine's only credit. Although it's actually a lot more than just one one song.

[Host 2]

Does it just say California Saga there? It doesn't have them broken out into the separates?

[Host 1]

No, it just says California Saga. But also, Mike Love is credited as composer, lyricist of California Saga.

[Host 2]

Yeah, well, that's the thing. So the first. I mean, if you're looking at it on streaming, you know, California Saga is broken out into three separate pieces, I think, which we can handle, you know, one by one here. Big Sur, the beaks of eagles and California and Big Sur. The first one, I think is, like. Is mostly a mic thing, to my knowledge. Like, not only, you know, lyrics, which we know, Mike has, you know, written some beautiful lyrics in the past. Hana Lee, the healer and so on, but music as well. Like, you know, he's. He's obviously al. Is. Is responsible for a lot of this in addition. But, like, this is. This is more of a mic thing than anyone else, at least the start of this. So, you know, I know, I know Cool Mike is a much debated concept in the community, but we gotta give him his plaudits when he deserves them.

[Host 1]

This is Cool Mike, for sure. This is definitely cool.

[Host 2]

This is the apotheosis of Cool Mike. This is as cool as Cool Mike ever gets.

[Host 1]

It's also, I mean, to be clear about what we mean by Cool Mike here, I mean, it's cool in terms of how much he's allowing himself or embracing the weirder side of the Beach Boys. Like, he really. He's finally doing it. He's. He's not the outlier who's cool in some other way here. I think the last record had all this. Is that. That's a Mike song, right?

[Host 2]

I mean, Mike has credits on it. Yeah, I don't know.

[Host 1]

Definitely. Mike. Mike is definitely leading the charge of. Yeah. Of that influence. But, yeah, this is this is like Mike doing his version of Cabinescence. It's, like, more literal than that, of course, but it really is a uncharacteristic song and moment for Mike.

[Host 2]

Unbelievably beautiful in a good way. Touching and. Yeah. Resonant. Specifically coming from Mike, I would expect this from Al. I would expect this from Carl. I would expect this from Dennis. But Mike. Yeah.

[Host 1]

What I'm trying to say is that it's cool because of how little it's trying to be cool, which is unusual for Mike. And it actually ends up squarely in the. In the cool song category. Just not because it's attempting that, like, do it again. It's. It's really just he's on a. This sincere wave about the beauty of the natural world.

[Host 2]

The beauty of a specific slice of the natural world. Big sir.

[Host 1]

I was in Big Sur last year.

[Host 2]

I was in Big Sur three weeks ago.

[Host 1]

Did he stay at Deechen's?

[Host 2]

No. I mean, my wife's family lives in Carmel. Has a house in Carmel. So when we go to Big Sur, we just were in Carmel and then we go down to Big Sur for the day and then head back out. But we went to Fern. You ever go to Fernwood in Big Sur? Fernwood Tavern?

[Host 1]

I don't think I did.

[Host 2]

Yeah, you should check it out. Great restaurant. They also do shows there. I saw Fern of the Pod, Jarvis, Tavernier and Woods there last year. Great spot.

[Host 1]

Yeah. I mean, there's not that many restaurants and bars and Big Sur. If anyone's unfamiliar with Big Sur.

[Host 2]

It's just like one road place on the planet.

[Host 1]

I mean, it's incredibly beautiful. It's basically just one snaky mountain road against the most imposing of cliff sides and redwoods and. I mean, listen to the song. He actually does a pretty good job of explaining it.

[Host 2]

He literally does. Cashmere hills filled with evergreens Flowing from the clouds down to meet the sea with the granite cliff. As a referee. Great. Fantastic work, Mike.

[Host 1]

That one is funny. As a referee.

[Host 2]

As a referee. No, I think that's great. Like, it's refereeing, you know, the sea and the land. It's kind of. It's the point of synthesis of those two. I love that line. Crimson sunsets and golden dawns Mother deer with newborn fawns under big surface skies that's where I belong. This is beauty to me.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Fantastic stuff.

[Host 1]

Very good. The sound of it is just so also. Yeah. Just so uncharacteristic.

[Host 2]

It reminds gentle country rock kind of flavor to it, you know?

[Host 1]

Yeah. I mean. And it has that thing, I guess when I mentioned cabanessence, I'm really just talking about the beginning of it. And I remember whenever I listen to that song, I kind of wish. I wish there was more of that part of just the kind of cute, like rural, the pastoral, you know, the beginning of that song.

[Host 2]

Yeah. You know, something a little more, you.

[Host 1]

Know, the fireside romantic low key thing that's at the beginning of that.

[Host 2]

Right before it goes into the, you know. Crow cries Uncover the cornfield. Shit.

[Host 1]

Yeah. Which is, you know, just goes nuts. But. But this song, it feels kind of like that. It's a whole song made of that material, that cloth.

[Host 2]

Some beautiful pedal steel work here from Ricky Fitar. Getting a little bit of classic country flavor to it. Some nice harmonica as well.

[Host 1]

Very good.

[Host 2]

Exactly. And it's kind of amazing to me that. Cause we've talked about over the last couple Beach Boys records, they've been going all these different directions. We're gonna do Sunflower stuff. Then we're gonna be the ecology band. Now we're. And the Passions all of a sudden. And there's new Beach Boys and now we're moving to hot. Like they've been just kind of schizophrenic, ping ponging between so many different artistic directions instead of kind of just like figuring out what they want to do and then moving down that path one step at a time. This feels to me so natural, you know, and obvious that like they could just make up. They could have just made a whole record that kind of sounds like this and it's, you know, it wouldn't have lit the world on fire necessarily, but like it would have been a seller and it would have been. It would have sounded great and they would have been able to, you know, play shows around record like that. It's like, it's kind of. It kind of amazes me that they didn't, you know, once they arrived at this sound, just decide like, oh, this is obviously what we should be doing at this point.

[Guest]

Sparkling springs from the mountain mountainside Join the Big Sur Rivers rushing to the tide where my kids can search for seashells at low tide Big surmise, let's see is fit out I am meant to be where the rugged mountain meets the water.

[Host 1]

Yeah. I mean, they've been kind of dancing around this approach a lot up until this point. I do think that also Friends feels like maybe they're trying to do that, but they're not. They're what they're not doing on that or Smiley Smile. I Mean, there's like, wind chimes. There's things on that. On those records that suggest. And include some of this. What I'm saying, I guess, though, is that, like, songs about nature, songs about the world in a observational, romantic frame like that.

[Host 2]

Right. And not in a Don't go near the waterway.

[Host 1]

No, not in a way where they're like, that was. That song kind of puts the cart before the horse a bit. Like, they haven't yet fully explored what they can do with just writing songs in appreciation of these things. And then that's like the. We gotta be hip to the ecology, man. We gotta write a song about the. The ecology. And this is, having digested that, a song that actually does include some of that. I mean, obviously, the whole saga ends up being kind of a grand statement, a grand ecological statement, but by way of a more poetic approach, which just suits them. Like the Beach Boys as grown men. As grown men, artists with that name, the best thing they can do, I think, and moments that they shine the brightest after having outgrown that moniker in a lot of ways, is to just be still faithful to, like, that original spark of writing about the ocean and stuff like that. Like writing about the beach, the sun, the sky, the sea. They're not really like those songs, the surfing songs. Even at the very beginning, yeah, it was popular because of the fad of surfing, but I think it's been immortal because of the images that are bigger than that fad. Like just literally the sun and the sky and things like that.

[Host 2]

Yeah. A song like this is thematically consistent, you know. And Don't Go near the Water also is thematically consistent with the earliest Beach Boys, you know, songs and records. You know, catch a wave, surfing safari, you know, girls on the beach, yada, yada. But, you know. Yeah, I think you're right. Like, it is taking those, you know, core facts, you know, core focuses of what made the Beach Boys the Beach Boys to begin with, but approaching them in a, you know, in a more adult kind of manner. This isn't Blood on the Tracks, you know, and it's not trying to be, but it's like. It is just. It feels like, you know, the Beach Boys have become beach men on this song.

[Host 1]

The Boys of Summer. Yeah, they have a kind of. It's funny you mentioned Blood on the Tracks because I think that, like, certain things on there could be compared to certain things they've done around this period or even on this record. Like, honestly, Lily, Rosemary and the Jack of Hearts feels kind of like an oddball Beach Boys number. Like, there is a weird. I mean, we even. We have Mount Vernon and Fairway, for example.

[Host 2]

Well, I don't.

[Host 1]

Yeah, I'm the Pied Piper and I. I don't want to. It's. It might be a stretch, but that.

[Host 2]

Feels more Lucky Wilbury than it does Blood on the tracks to me. Big sir, great song. I will also just shout out the previous, like, the alternate take of this song where it's just this song that finally came out officially on the Feel Flow set a couple years ago. They recorded this song, that version of that song for the. The Surf's up album. And. And it didn't end up making the cut there. I don't know why. I actually think that's the best version of this song. I don't know if you've ever heard it. I don't. My wedding playlist.

[Host 1]

What's different?

[Host 2]

It just sounds different. It's like a. You know, it's a different song. Same, same lyrics, basically, but just, you know, it sounds different. Fucking fantastic. I think I found it initially, like 15 years ago or something from Aquarium Drunkard and just, you know, fell in love way back when. That's, you know, kind like first taste of like 70s weirdo beach boy shit. So salute to Justin and the crew over there for being the seed that germinated into this so many years later.

[Guest]

Cashmere hills filled with evergreens Flowing from the clouds down to meet the sea with the granite as a referee Crimson sunsets and golden dawn A mother of de with her newborn forms all under Big Sur sky that's where I belong Big Sur I've got plans for you Me and I are going to.

[Host 2]

But, you know, this version of Big Sur is great too. The question I was gonna ask earlier before we went down another route on the Conversation, and it's spurred by this song and this sequence of songs here, the California Saga. Do you consider Mike Love like, a great artist?

[Host 1]

A great artist?

[Host 2]

Yes, because we would say Bob Dylan, great artist. Lou Reed, great artist. Brian Wilson, great artist. Mike Love, great artist.

[Host 1]

I mean. No, no. But that's not something that I would apply lightly. Great artists. I think of the type people who anything they touch is going to be kind of important.

[Host 2]

I feel like in general, all of our subjects are great. Like, you know.

[Host 1]

Yeah, yeah.

[Host 2]

The main, you know, Randy David Berman, Scott Walker, you know, great artist applies to basically everyone that we ever focus on. So, you know, that was kind of the Mike Love aspect of it is like, you know, is this the first non great artist that we're really talking about some, you know, such great extent.

[Host 1]

Well, I think it's unfair to single him out here because I don't think I would give that label to anyone in the Beach Boys necessarily. Except for. Well, I don't know. I mean, I think there's such a thing as a very good artist, and I think there's such a thing as being a very talented person. And I think that there is flashes of brilliance, and I think all of those things at various times apply to Mike Love and that he has. I think it's really also just important to note, like, yeah, sure, Brian Wilson, great artist, capital G. But Mike Love is also keeping up with Brian Wilson at every step of their career and in some ways having a better time of being able to handled things and literally keep making music, continue to do this thing that they've set out to do together. So he's not an insignificant talent. And I think at his best, he is a part of a group which collectively is making great art, and he's as important to that group as any other member.

[Host 2]

Yeah. Yeah. I don't have a firm answer one way or another to this question quite yet. If you held a gun to my head right now and asked me, is he closer to a great artist or the opposite of that, I would say closer to great artist than not. Obviously, there are moments throughout his long and storied career when he is, you know, more or less artistic. So it's not just like a, you know, constant static state of being for him, but, you know, it's. It's. It is it. This whole journey we've been on so far has very much complicated my, you know, feelings and. And mindset towards the man. As. As much as I like to have a little fun sometimes with the whole cool mic concept, like, I, you know, it is. It is an interesting kind of thing to keep in mind with beautiful songs like this.

[Host 1]

Yeah. Great artists. And I was thinking about this the other day. I was just, like, kind of thinking about who is a great artist, because I was watching. I rewatched the Beach Bum, the Harmony Corinne movie, and I was like.

[Host 2]

When I saw it.

[Host 1]

Yeah. Rewatching it, I thought, oh, this is great. This is great. And that movie, it feels like the work of a great artist to me. Like, it feels like. I don't understand how that atmosphere, how it could be. So it seemed to be so fun throughout the entire thing. Like, I don't know. David lynch, obviously, is someone. We've been talking, thinking about a lot. Great artists, anything that he touches is going to. If it's not going to be like, the thing that you expect as the greatest of his art, it's going to be starting at pulling some new thread that is sure to, if you follow it, end up with something as major as anything else. Like, it's. It's a matter of the quality of ideas or like the ability to follow ideas to bigger things. Maybe that's something about being a great artist, but I, It's. I don't like even sitting here squabbling about if Mike Love is or isn't great because, you know, who's. It just feels like, yeah, don't say.

[Host 2]

Who's to say? Because you're the Beach Boys podcaster. It's you. You are the one who's to say.

[Host 1]

Well, recently we were talking about Todd Haynes and, you know, I.

[Host 2]

No, please don't. We can't. I can't do more.

[Host 1]

I won't say anything about Todd Haynes, but I will say, like, I was also thinking about Akira Kurosawa, his movie Dreams, like, as, you know, another. Like a movie that is various small vignettes that are. That. They're just different dreams. It's a series of dreams. And I was watching that and I was just thinking, you know, not everyone can be Akira Kurosawa.

[Host 2]

Almost no one can be Akira Kurosawa, another great artist. So indeed, there's also the whole, you know, Andy Warhol, like, the art of business aspect of things to keep in mind when it comes to Michael, at least being good in business is the most fascinating kind of art. Direct quote from Andy Warhol. That's its own. Mike Love obviously is not operating on that mental level, but it's fun to chew on. I've just been batting that question around the back of my mind last couple days.

[Host 1]

No, that is a real thing I do think about. There's certain aesthetics that are like, it's so efficient at. At business that it. It becomes sublime. I think, like, Mr. Beast is like, you know, people think he's the Antichrist because of. I think he has this ability, like.

[Host 2]

The art of the soy face. Mr. Beast.

[Host 1]

I mean, he's just. You watch like, his show and there's like, zero. There's nothing to watch his show. I've seen a couple. I've seen a few of those episodes at the behest of a friend. And it's like. Like it feels like you're watching a trailer, but it's the thing itself. Like you're. It. It's insane. It's like made for somebody. It's. It's made for an attention span so small that we haven't even reached that yet. And there's nothing in the way of it just being pure, craven, pleasure centered smashing, which also ends up making it horrifying and feel like cruel. But. But it is a genuine gift that he has for like harnessing this power and he's able to make things into. Make these massive productions happen. Like find out exactly what is the thing that drives people to click and subscribe. He's a savant at that to a degree that I think you could call that art. But art doesn't necessarily mean it's moral or good. Anyway, we're getting a little far afield.

[Host 2]

Next mini series of Jokerman podcasts coming this summer. Mr. Beast. You heard it here first, folks.

[Host 1]

We're rapidly approaching a world where that's gonna be the only thing that people want to listen to. So we're gonna have to get into the MrBeast podcasting game in our 70s. We're just gonna be here. We're talking about Mr. Beast's first videos imag.

[Host 2]

That's just the darkest shit imaginable of Mr. Beast recap podcast. I don't even like thinking about that.

[Host 1]

Anyway, this song, very good. And I'm very impressed with Mike Love. It's Mike Love's finest hour, truly.

[Host 2]

You know, Mike Love, you have added yourself to Big Sur's lengthy list of lovers. So have I. Great work.

[Host 1]

Leafy list of lovers.

[Host 2]

Lengthy list of lovers.

[Host 1]

I thought it was leafy.

[Host 2]

Mm, lengthy.

[Host 1]

Oh, he doesn't say leafy.

[Host 2]

He says lengthy.

[Host 1]

I thought that was like a joke about leaves.

[Host 2]

No.

[Host 1]

All right. Like this song.

[Host 2]

Give him a little too much credit. He's not that great an artist. The Beaks of Eagles, Part 2 of the California Saga.

[Guest]

An eagle's nest on the head of an old redwood on one of the precipice footed ridges above Ventana Creek. That jagged country which nothing but a fallen meteor will ever plow. No horseman will ever ride there, and no hunter cross this ridge but the winged ones. No one will steal the eggs from this fortress. The she eagle is old. Her mate was shot long ago. She is now mated with a son of hers when lightning blasted.

[Host 1]

So that's a. This is a adaptation, basically, of a. Of a poem.

[Host 2]

Of a Robinson Jeffers poem, which I must confess, I did not realize for quite some time, you know, when I first discovered this song.

[Host 1]

What's another Robinson Jeffers joint?

[Host 2]

You tell me. You're the poet here.

[Host 1]

Well, We've got. Jeffers is an American poet, and he's Waldo Jeffers.

[Host 2]

Waldo Jeffers had reached his limit.

[Host 1]

Waldo Jeffers, the son of Presbyterian minister and biblical scholar. He. He. He moved to California, and he grew up in California, went to Occidental.

[Host 2]

Jeffers believed that transcending conflict required human concerns to be de. Emphasized in favor of the boundless hold the boundless hole. This led him to W H O L E this one. This led him to oppose US participation in World War II, a stance that was controversial after the US entered the war. Okay, so, you know Nazi.

[Host 1]

Oh, wait, it said he's a Nazi.

[Host 2]

Well, it said he opposed U.S. entrance into World War II.

[Host 1]

Oh, no, no. I don't think it's from that angle. It says here his prophetic rage at his country's imperial ambitions have resonated with later readers and been crucial influences on such west coast poets as William Everson, Ivor Winters. I don't know how to say that. Gary Snyder and Robert Haas. Gary Snyder, who's still alive, by the way, is like, 98. And he died. Not Gary, but Robinson Jeffers died in Carmel by the Sea in 1962. So very good provenance here. If you look at him, this picture of him on the Poetry foundation website, he looks great. He looks really cool. He is sitting on some rocks and gazing out, presumably at the sea. Got a killer fit going.

[Host 2]

Nice boy. Yeah. Born 1887, died 1962 in Carmel, California. I love that.

[Host 1]

Oh, yeah.

[Host 2]

That's amazing. Okay. I know this guy. This makes sense. He. So there's this house in Carmel called Tor House. That's this, like, giant stone, you know, almost like, I don't know, medieval British looking, like, you know, like a castle, like, verging on a castle. Not quite manor, but. Yeah. That's built up on the hills overlooking the ocean there in Carmel. This is the. This is the guy that built that house. So that's amazing. I've always wanted to go there. You can take, like, tours and stuff of it if you book it in advance. But I drive past it all the time when I'm down in Carmel. Okay. Salute to Robinson Jeffers. Apologies for calling you a Nazi. I was not familiar with your game.

[Host 1]

Yeah, it's amazing that he was born in the 1800s in Allegheny, Pennsylvania.

[Host 2]

Yeah, that's.

[Host 1]

You know, he really is like. If you want to look at the influence of Walt Whitman, like, that's. He's kind of like, not that far away from he was alive. When did Whitman die? I mean, was he yeah, he was born. Robinson Jeffers was born while Whitman was still alive. He died in 1892.

[Host 2]

Time's crazy.

[Host 1]

So this is that lineage. You got Whitman to Jeffers, to love, to Mike love.

[Host 2]

Yeah, well said. Exactly. Yeah. So it's basically a Robinson Jeffers poem set to some kind of florid. Well, alternating the music.

[Host 1]

Yeah, we shouldn't. We haven't talked about the beginning of the previous part of the saga. Actually. The intro to it is like the theme that repeats, which is this. More. This kind of like, I'll say, maybe a bit overstated in its plaintive Vincent.

[Host 2]

Price haunted house ass music.

[Host 1]

Yeah, except it's meant to. Yeah, it's like through the sands of time, through the fogs of the past. It's like sounds. Sounds like. Yeah, what it is. Which is like music for narration, musings on the nature of time and the American spirit. And so it has this kind of somber thing that at the beginning gives way to the Big surprise section. But the beaks of eagles kind of dwells more in that mode and has some flute. A lot of flute at the beginning anyway.

[Host 2]

Plenty of flute. The flute comes. Comes in. In back and you know, back and forth. It's an interesting song because it kind of. And I don't know where the other lyrics for this song come from. I'm sure someone out there can. Can tell us or maybe you can tell me, but like when it. When it kind of flips out of the like very dramatic narration of the actual Jeffers poem here. The beaks of eagles, like the horse drawn carriage from Monterey. Shit. Like that's not part of his original poem. So I don't know if that's from like another Robinson Jeffers poem or if that's original lyrics by the Beach Boys that have been kind of stitched into this song. But whatever this is.

[Host 1]

But the broken shack.

[Host 2]

The broken shack. Yeah, exactly. Horse drawn carriage from Monterey. Whatever the case is, I love the way that this song kind of flips back and forth between the beaks of eagles. The poem, which is this very dramatic poem that is told basically from the point of view of the she eagle and her development over her growth over time as the growth of mankind kind of encroaches upon her beautiful territory there in Big Surprise. And so that's one element in the song. And then all of a sudden it jumps into this kind of like jaunty, silly, happy go lucky number about, you know, human beings riding along the coast in their horse drawn carriages and spilling down the hill. It's like kind of bird brain, this whole thing. It's like sort of a dumb guy's impression of what's bird brain. I didn't even mean to do that.

[Host 1]

Bird brain.

[Host 2]

Boy, that's why I'm good at this. It's sort of a dumb guy's impression of what smart guys, you know, think here. But like I, it actually totally comes off for me. Like you gotta buy into this song to really dig it, I think. But I, I am bought in 100% at this point.

[Guest]

Broken the shack an old man takes his time about dying Just as the back wildflower bed that you like. In Dawn's new life, a man might venture a horse drawn stage from Monterey.

[Host 1]

Yeah, I mean it's, it. To quote Peter Griffin, it insists upon itself. And I do think that it actually, in this case, I feel that I can't help but, but appreciate what it's attempting to do. I mean, I think that there's something to be said for like music that if you happened to be like, particularly in a spiritual mode or tripping lightly or something like, I like music that sort of seems to not have a ceiling on it. Like it, it kind of is already poised to be going to some sort of more rarefied Utrecht plain. And I mean, this definitely is doing that. Like it, it. It's somewhere between educational film narration and like PBS documentary and also just the Beach Boys sort of like heroes and villains. Like it's a more literalized version of heroes and villains. It's like, well, we don't have Van Dyke park, so let's grab another like a famous poet from California. And all those instincts happen to just kind of like work for the Beach Boys.

[Host 2]

Yeah, like it, it shouldn't work, I think especially when it's Mike Love delivering this like insanely dramatic poetry over this musical bed. But it all totally. And, and I can totally see someone listening to this and being like, fuck this shit, you know, get out, get out of here. Michaelov and that's perfectly fair. But I find it so much more enjoyable when it's like, you know, they kind of stuck the landing on this one. They kind of went crazy here.

[Host 1]

I think that it also references a poem called Thurso's Landing, which I don't, I don't know.

[Host 2]

Yeah, well, Thurso's Landing is a point, you know, is a point in Big Sur. It's a point where they used to actually load. I think they say limestone ore is all that mattered. Would mine limestone out of the hills of Big Sur and then get it onto the ships at Thurso's Landing and then ship it up to San Francisco, you know where that would be turned into the buildings of San Francisco. That's also part of why I love this song is because I'm such a Northern California boy at this point. This is all my backyard, basically. I'm down in Big Sur, Carmel once every couple months. I love hearing all this shit like name dropping. Monterey and Salinas and big. It's like Ventana Creek. I love it. It's great.

[Host 1]

There is the Salinas thing, but that's in next section.

[Host 2]

That's in the next section. Yeah.

[Host 1]

Which one too? Yeah, this. This definitely does it for me in some way. I mean I love the part with like the bad. Those like background vocals. It's beautiful after the. The old man line and the other one like th. That feels like really vintage Beach Boys coming through. But it's like. It's subtle. The part with the dinosaurs, like that definitely feels. I mean it's in the poem. But it. I can't help but think about like the. The. The Disneyland railroad. Like the. If you just go on the Disneyland railroad at Disneyland.

[Host 2]

I think the second episode in a row we've mentioned the dinosaur section of the Disneyland railroad.

[Host 1]

Here's where that. Like I really have nothing else to compare this to because it really feels like that there's. I don't know, there's something about this type of American like certified USDA prime poetry. Like poetry that is kind of of stamped with the stamp of approval by the Library of Congress. It just seems like it's got a.

[Host 2]

Flavor to me of like, you know, Hudson River Valley paintings.

[Host 1]

Yes, the Hudson School.

[Host 2]

It's got that kind of flavor, like the poetry, you know, kind of equivalent of that which is like very like bog standard and like not very imaginative on one level, you know, in terms of what you're seeing on the canvas. But on another level, like to me is like kind of awe inspiring in many cases. Yeah, yeah.

[Host 1]

It's great. And it's like those paintings like for. Yeah. That's in this poetry. It's the kind of stuff where maybe it's easy to take for granted now it's like seeming kind of. Yeah. Regular poetry. But at the time I think it represented a bit more of a natural. A more direct. A less like a fanciful version. It's like the stuff. Stuff of writing about actual places in California is like not. Not something that necessarily was the subject of poetry before that. It was like.

[Host 2]

Yeah. And this guy, you know, Robinson Jeffers, ostensibly one of the first to do it, born in 1887. And like. Like, Carmel was only established as an artist colony, like, in the, you know, first couple decades of the 20th century. So, like, this is kind of like the primary source of, like, at least in, like, Western, Anglicized, you know, know, English literature, to say nothing of, like, the Ohlone people. But, you know, like, this is going back to, like, the start of this whole thing, you know, in terms of reference or in terms of influences. So.

[Host 1]

Yeah. And I mean, Mike Love, I think, was more down, clearly, like, more open to using this type of poetry as the poetic side that he was willing to not just have. Not just abide on the record, but also he's the one singing and speaking it. Which, you know, isn't to say that this poetry is any less good than. Than any others, but. But it does also. Yeah, I mean, it's just like, not everybody's going to be into the. More, like, the Van Dyke Parks side of things. Like, that's not. That's clearly not his taste. And that's just some. That's fine. That's fine. If Mike Clove doesn't like that.

[Host 2]

That's right. Or like Lawrence Ferlinghetti, you know, who. Like, we didn't even bring this up, but on Discover America, the title of that record, Van Dyke Park Stole from a Lawrence. Or not stole, but like, he took that phrase from Ferrangetti poem. Yeah. And, you know, like, he is very much a, like, you know, more contemporary, relevant poet at this moment in time, you know, when the Beach Boys are cutting Holland. But that's not the kind. Like, Lawrence Ferlinghetti is not gonna be the type of art that Mike Love responds to.

[Host 1]

No.

[Host 2]

It sort of makes sense that it would be a poem like this that he responds to.

[Host 1]

Yeah. And anyway, I'm glad that he responds to it. I like the poem and. Yeah. But at the end, it has this. Yeah. It's very wide reaching. It does bring back, like, the ecology thing, but it's actually a better. Well, maybe not better. I won't say that, but it's. It's not. Take care of your feet. Like, this is.

[Host 2]

Yeah, it's. It, like, it goes for some seriousness, and I think it pulls it off to me, at least. I can absolutely see people saying, no, this is corny bullshit. But, like, I think they. Like I was saying earlier, they nail this more than they don't, even though they shouldn't.

[Host 1]

Well, the poem is there already, and so it's like it can't go that wrong. Right Next, though, is one of the only parts that Brian Wilson is actually on.

[Host 2]

Yes, that's right. Literally just singing the words that he's made to sing in this song.

[Host 1]

I'm on my way to sunny California.

[Host 2]

On my way to sunny California. Exactly. On my way to spend another sunny day. Music is in my soul. Brian Wilson. I'm on my way to sunny California. You know, that's the most trite bullshit that anyone has ever said. But when Brian Wilson says that, especially Brian Wilson, who has been shipped across the planet and shut up in his little, like, you know, cabin in the middle of nowhere in Holland. And, like, I feel like I can hear his actual fundamental longing for sunny California in his vocals on this song. California, the conclusion to California saga. It's. It's. It's. It makes me, you know, know, just light up like the sun, hearing him sing on this.

[Guest]

Get yourself in the pure water and the sun shines brightly down on a penny the sunshine bright deep down on the B. You're so clean It'll just take your mind away Take your mind away Take your mind away.

[Host 1]

I mean, this is basically like Surfing usa, but the, like, the PBS version. I mean, I. I get definite, like, PBS vibes from the whole saga thing. Like, it's kind of. And I love pbs. I'm, like, always watching pbs. Like, probably more than anything else on my TV is various PBS programs. But I just love, like, you know, that it's never going to get too crazy, but you're still going to get a lot of stuff that is interesting and, you know, kind of you'll learn something. And every once in a while you get some references that you're like, oh, that's cool. I know that, like, this song has. Has the bit about Travels with Charlie, the Steinbeck book. Like, John Steinbeck shows up in this song. It's like when on Antiques Roadshow there's somebody who's got a Picasso and you're just like, oh, that's crazy.

[Host 2]

Some more. Central California coast excellence. John Steinbeck and Salinas.

[Host 1]

Yeah, I heard there was just a horrible battery plant explosion in Salinas that's like, potentially going to contaminate thousands of miles of crops.

[Host 2]

You heard correctly. It is this giant former power plant that's right on the coast, you know, kind of in between. It's like north. It's like west of Salinas, north of Monterey, south of Santa Cruz along the coast. And yeah, it's like a big battery thing where they put all the solar energy now and it.

[Host 1]

Not good.

[Host 2]

Yeah. Completely blew up and caught fire. Don't come near the water, folks.

[Host 1]

Doing that. Yeah.

[Host 2]

California saga. California just pure light love. Fantastic. An absolute banger of a song, I think that refrain here. Water, clear, clear water Clear, cool water get yourself in the cool, clear water that is like. That's some of the best music I think the Beach Boys have ever heard. Committed to tape, you know, from beginning to end. It's just infectious to me. And again, the kind of like, you know, California water, whatever. This is all very like, common basic imagery and stuff, but, like, the, the significance of these guys making a song like this at this moment in time when they're stuck in halt, like it's, it means so much more, I think, in this context. And like, as this might as well be like the state anthem for California, as far as I'm concerned. So perfectly does it capture the way that I feel about this state and think about it at this moment in time. It's perfect music. California, have you ever been south of Monterey?

[Guest]

Baron scar the coastline and the chaparral flows to the sea Neat waves of golden sunshine and have you ever been north? The Morrow Bay the south coast plows the sea and the people there are of the bre that don't need electricity Water, water, get yourself a lap who can get the song.

[Host 1]

Have you read that book? This Steinbeck book?

[Host 2]

I'm not, No, I, I.

[Host 1]

It's very entertaining.

[Host 2]

Travels with Charlie.

[Host 1]

Yeah, that's great.

[Host 2]

Charlie was a dog.

[Host 1]

Yeah, it's like a, it's, as far as I can tell. I mean, I think it's basically based on his actual time just driving around in this, like, fully kitted out mobile home attached to a truck. And he brought his dog and he's just like, going around America.

[Host 2]

That sounds good to me.

[Host 1]

Travels with Charlie in Search of America. Is that what it's called? And, and yeah, it's like Discover America. That's really good. Also, the other great Steinbeck book I like that's in that vein is the. The Log from the Sea of Cortez, if you, you know that one.

[Host 2]

Nope.

[Host 1]

That's great. It's like he has a couple of these books that are just actually him. That was him on this expedition with his close friend, the, the biologist Ed Ricketts, that they're like, they're picking up all these samples of sea life in the Gulf of Mexico, and it's just like a travelogue. Both those highly recommended. Very, very good.

[Host 2]

I'll put them on the queue. Maybe I'll dial them up on Netflix one of these nights.

[Host 1]

Netflix.

[Host 2]

That's a joke. Morro Bay, Monterey, Salinas, Big Sur. Congregation, Penny's Place. That's Al Jardine singing about his friend Penny who lived in Big Sur. Al, of course, lived in Big Sur. Live in Big Sur, right until this very day. Perfect song. California.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Perfect conclusion to the California saga. This whole thing is kind of unprecedented to me. This chunk of music on this record, it feels like a big shot from them in some ways. I think of this as the Beach Boys, second side of Abbey Road. And obviously it's not as extraordinary and as impressive as what Paul does there. But for the Beach Boys, especially the Beach Boys in 1973, to go this big, shoot this high and actually pull it off to the extent that they do, I'm floored by this sequence of music on this record every time.

[Host 1]

And the executives at Warner Brothers were floored for a different reason. They just heard this and they were like, what in the fuck? What have you done?

[Host 2]

I mean, this feels like a fucking single to me. Obviously, if the. It's here kind of awkwardly in the middle of the record at the end of the California single. But, like, you know, I feel like you could have put this one out and turned some heads with it.

[Host 1]

I'm glad that Salem Sailor rolls some heads. That's what they wanted to do at Warner Brothers. They wanted heads to roll for this. They said, what is this piece of shit?

[Host 2]

It's like they don't respect water.

[Host 1]

Barton Fink, when he's, like, talking to the. The executive guy, that's what I imagine it being like.

[Host 2]

No, they need to respect water. Water. Yeah, water. Get yourself in the cool, clear water. I know you think you understand that, but when you really think about that, there's something profound there.

[Host 1]

Yes. This is also the second time that they've done a song just about. Well, this isn't just about water, but, yeah, cool water. Big, big stuff for them.

[Host 2]

Water.

[Guest]

Just takes your mind with. Have you ever been to a festival?

[Host 1]

That's the end of side A.

[Host 2]

Is it the end of side A? I don't think it is. Oh, no, you're right. It is the end of side A.

[Host 1]

Oh, it is then. Okay. Yes.

[Host 2]

Boy. And then it just keeps going from here. Are you. Are you as much of a traitor head as I am?

[Host 1]

A traitor, Joe? A traitor? I'm just a regular traitor, Joe.

[Host 2]

No, the traitor.

[Host 1]

Yeah, I know. I'm not that big of a fan of this song.

[Host 2]

Oh, I love this song. Just the hits keep coming Here trader.

[Guest]

Sailed with jeweled crown Humanity rode the way Exploring to command more land Scheming how to rule the wind Traders spied a virgin plain and named it for velvet Robes wrote home declaring There's a place where totally folks are free Nourishment fills the prairies in the hillside and animals stalk the mountains and the seaside and fish up bound your lakes.

[Host 1]

I mean, I don't hate it, but I think I saw that, like, who was quoted as saying this was like, the centerpiece of the record? I agree with it. Tom Petty.

[Host 2]

Or Tom Petty. That's right.

[Host 1]

Yeah. I mean, like, technically. Yeah, Yeah, I definitely agree. It's right there in the middle of the album, pretty much. I don't think it's like that great. It is. It's a Jardine, right?

[Host 2]

No, this is Carl.

[Host 1]

It's a Carl.

[Host 2]

This is the Carl moment, right?

[Host 1]

Jardine only has California saga here. Yeah, it's. I guess it's just that it lays it on, like, a little thick. Maybe after I've already heard the Beaks of eagles like that. That really covers everything when it comes to, like, a grand statement about the injustices of man against nature. And, you know, the Traitor is more about man against his fellow man.

[Host 2]

Yeah, it's man against man. And it's like an anti imperialist, anti capitalist song from the Beach Boys that like, returns to. I think, you know, some of the themes and approaches that they took on Surf's Up. But once again, to me, I think the Traitor nails this shit so much more clearly and cleanly than they do on most of the songs on that record. I think some of that has to do with Jack Riley, who has a co write on this with Carl. We're doing the same jeweled scepter shit. Literally the first line in the song is, traitor, sailed, jeweled crown. So clearly, between the two of them, jeweled things, that was a fixation. You know, the lyrics are a little florid and fancy free, but that's okay.

[Host 1]

They're not fancy free. These are.

[Host 2]

These are not fancy free. Just Floridan fancy. Yeah, not fancy free, but I think fancy. Full, Fanciful. Yes. I dig it. I think it's great.

[Host 1]

It is. I mean, it's good. I mean, I just think that maybe it's like the. Maybe just my appetite for, like, a song that feels at all, like, maybe a little preachy is just kind of exhausted by the time I've gotten through the California sun saga. Middle part.

[Host 2]

Yeah. I think the sequencing on this record is not particularly well done. We talked about this on Carl and the Passions too. Like, it just like it doesn't flow very well. I think this record, this song coming immediately after California Saga. Because in many ways, as great as Sailor and Sailor is, I think those are the two great chunks of music on this record. This song, the Traitor and the whole California Saga together and just flowing directly from one into the other. You know, it might be. Might be a little bit more than you want just right there in the center of this album. Although at the same time, I mean, we're listening to it on streaming. This is the start of side two, you know, so if you're getting up and flipping the record, at least you're kind of getting a reset in that sense.

[Host 1]

Yeah, I guess just for me, like, it doesn't feel like a reset. Cause it's just more like stuff. It's more ecology, basically. I mean, I respect and appreciate what the song's saying, but maybe it would have been better. Like, I could see your point. Like after. After Steamboat, maybe I would almost make.

[Host 2]

This like track one. Like, let's kick the record off with Traitor. Let's put sail on Sailor at the very end.

[Host 1]

And yeah, either that would work too.

[Host 2]

Yeah. I think there, you know, are ways around some of the problem that they paint themselves in here. But yeah, I mean, on its own, regardless of its appearance in the record or where it appears on the record, I think it's just fantastic song. Another just all star turn from Carl here after, you know, not so much of that on the last record, but, you know, he kind of owns Surf's up in many ways with Long Promise Road and Feel Flows. Great to see him come back. Come back to the forefront and just knock one out of the park. The way this song is, like, it's really. It's. It's like the Traitor saga in many ways. It's like a five minute song and it's kind of two songs stitched together. This like big, anthemic, charging, catchy beginning of the song that narrates the, you know, the actual, like, conquest of this unnamed land here by the traitor and the forces of the crown. And then it kind of switches towards the end into this more poignant, slower, you know, downbeat element when clearly the point of view has shifted from the imperialists to those who have been displaced and killed again. They have no, no right to be like, operating at levels of drama and insight this high at this moment in time. And yet they are.

[Host 1]

Well, no right. I mean, I guess I just coming.

[Host 2]

After Carl and the passions.

[Host 1]

Carl and The Passions didn't really set it up.

[Host 2]

Yeah, exactly. Like, it was just like, you know, they're silly lads at this point.

[Host 1]

Well, this thing, it's all post Surf's up, though, so, I mean, anything goes in terms of, like, how heavy they're able to get.

[Host 2]

Well, I think that's true and I think that's what's interesting about a lot of this music is like. Surf's Up, I think, is often thought of as sort of sticking out like a sore thumb in the discography. Just kind of like this is the one moment when the Beach Boys were serious and really trying to make statements and so and so and so on. And that is true to some extent. But, like, I think. I really think Holland and Surf's up are like kind of twin records in the catalog here. And a lot of the music on Holland illustrates that Surf's up wasn't just this, like one off weirdo, random thing that they did because Jack Riley came in and convinced them this is what people needed to hear from them. Like, I think that to whatever extent, you know, Jack Riley played in the creation of this record or the mindset on this record, like, these guys were still writing these songs and doing all of this kind of big brain shit and like, it. It's very impressive to me.

[Guest]

Making it sound like the evening sea trying to be. Making it go Creating it gently Like a morning breeze Alive eyes that see beyond tomorrow through to the town without hours passing the In a flowers reason to live Embracing together like the merging streams Crying dreams Making a fool begging.

[Host 1]

Intently yeah, the Traitor. One of the. Definitely a song that I can imagine Warner Brothers brass being like, okay, so you're going to. You're going to change the lyrics. All right, well, that's. You're going to not have the this that you got what could be a good song here and you. You it up. But we're going to fix it and then we're going to take off that end part and then we're gonna put it back on the record. How about that?

[Host 2]

I mean, that's. That's what is so great about the song in many ways. It's just like buoyant. Just like insanely catchy. It's got the moog on it all the way through from Carl. And this organ as well. It's just like, infectious musically. And then. Yeah. Is this like kind of overwritten dressing down of imperialist ambitions, of Western power? It's like, like fantastic.

[Host 1]

Yeah. I don't want to, you know, make it. I don't want to sound like I'm discouraging that, because I do think that that is great.

[Host 2]

I mean, you think the Beach Boys have gone too woke at this moment, that's what you're saying?

[Host 1]

I'm saying that that's probably what they were being met with at their record label. But I do think that it's great that they were, like. It's so confident that, like, yeah, this type of music can be applied toward this type of message. No problem. It's no problem. That's fine. That's good.

[Host 2]

No, it works. And I mean, this all might be part of the reason that this record ended up being sort of. I think it was reviewed relatively well at the time, but it didn't really sell particularly well. And this was the last record that they made for three years at this moment in time. It kind of left a bad taste in everyone's movie mouth. This is not what people were coming to the Beach Boys for, you know, especially not after Dumbass Carl and the Passions, as great as that record is. So it's just sort of a mismatch, I think, between, like, their artistic ambitions on an album like this and whoever it was that was buying beach boys records in 1973. That, of course, makes it a very rich text for you and I 50 years later. But, you know, at the moment or at the time, it sort of a mismatch. We haven't done anything about the COVID yet, by the way.

[Host 1]

Very good cover.

[Host 2]

Fantastic cover. I love the COVID Very brown. Feels very Bob Dylan in that way. Very brown cover. I love a brown cover.

[Host 1]

It's a great idea. It's just the. You know, it's a boat in the canal in Amsterdam, I would guess. But it's clipped.

[Host 2]

People have figured out the exact buildings that those are. People will like, go Beach Boys nuts, will go and. And take little pictures in front of them.

[Host 1]

Well, that's impressive because you don't get to see a lot of the actual building. You're seeing their reflection wavily reflected in the water. The mostly brown water. Get yourself in that brown, brown water Brown, brown water. And then the actual. The title.

[Host 2]

I love the logo. Yeah. And the word mark of it.

[Host 1]

The logo.

[Host 2]

Fantastic.

[Host 1]

Kind of like surfs up. Like, it does feel like I can now see, like, if you're telling me like this and. And Surf's up are both kind of like Jack Riley influenced, if not produced whole, whole cloth. Like, there's a theme here. There's a vibe. Like the. The thing of having kind of a logo kind of a. An object like that. It's like a little piece of driftwood with the titles painted onto it that's positioned at the top. And I think it looks pretty. Pretty timeless. Like, you can tell, I think, based on the photo that, like, the photo feels like 70s, but it doesn't really. It doesn't feel dated necessarily. I mean, it does, but it doesn't. It could be from a few decades. Like it. It feels like 20th century in general.

[Host 2]

Yeah. I think it continues a very strong run of Beach Boys album designs titles. The Carl and the Passions thing, I think, as we talked about, the COVID is fun to look at. Doesn't really make sense with that music. And the whole title is sort of.

[Host 1]

Preposterous, but I mean, it's absolutely preposterous. The more I'm thinking about it, the more I'm just like, you can't complain about nobody buying your record when you did that.

[Host 2]

Like, they should have called this one Carl and the Passions, quote, Holland by the Beach Boys. Yeah, but, yeah, I mean, Sunflower Surfs up Holland. That's. Those are like just three. Knock them out of the park. Titles, album covers, you know, whole kind of statements, branding packages.

[Host 1]

What do we have next after the Traitor?

[Host 2]

Well, then, yeah. So here's where we kind of hit some choppy waters, I think, on this record. Not in terms of the songs, but once again, just in terms of the sequencing here. We're getting close to the end of the record now. Leaving this town. So this is the. The other kind of Big Flames number. Flame. Did we ever decide on that? Flames. Flame.

[Host 1]

The Flame, the flame, the flames.

[Host 2]

The flame, the Flames. And it brings things down a little bit here. You know, we're gonna get more of a sort of like bluesy, slower paced, dramatic modeling type of song here. I like it. I like it. I don't know that this is my favorite thing on Holland. It just kind of. I feel like I've kind of stubbed my toe a little bit listening to this. Coming after the ecstatic eyes of the California saga and the Traitor.

[Guest]

Sometimes it's hard to notice.

[Host 1]

Yeah, I don't. I can't say that I. This song goes in one ear and out the other to me. And it's not necessarily because I think it's bad, but maybe it's because I just don't think much about it.

[Host 2]

Yeah. I think it's not essential music on this record. Not that it doesn't belong here, but it's not really what I'm coming to this album for. I Think that Ricky and Blondie, I think really like own this song. You know, they have write co write credits on it along with Mike. And Blondie sings this one again. It's good, you know, it's good, but it. It's sort of just. This is the one moment on the album I feel like we're kind of back to Carl and the Passions mode where like there are songs that Ricky and Blondie wrote and brought to the band and there are other songs that they didn't. And like, you can kind of. You see the seams in between those. I think the way that they all kind of come together. On Sale on Sailor. I would love them that to be the case with a song like this. But it doesn't quite, quite get there for me. It's just kind of like little slow, little turgid, you know, very piano heavy. Not quite as buoyant and exciting as a lot of the music on this record.

[Host 1]

No, it's. It has the thing where it sounds like it could have been from any band. Yeah, it's got like. It's got other Walker brother syndrome. It. It's got.

[Host 2]

Got like a little Den Haggy.

[Host 1]

It's got. I mean, Den Haag. That's actually about the hag, so. Yeah, sure.

[Host 2]

All right, that's.

[Host 1]

That's Holland, I think what they.

[Host 2]

Yeah, yeah, the Hague is in Denmark. Yeah. No, the Hague is not in Denmark. That's it.

[Host 1]

Where is this?

[Host 2]

I think. No, it's in Holland. Yeah, the Netherlands.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Yeah. I think what they do on this song by the end of it is cool. You know, it kind of like the. The vocals kind of. Of fail, fail away. And they kind of get into this spacey, kind of like dramatic build that some sort of crazy synthesizer is. Is whatever's going on there. I don't know exactly what that is, but it, you know, takes a little bit of time getting there. ARP Odyssey synthesizer, according to the credits by Ricky Fitar here. That's cool. That's fun. But.

[Host 1]

But, you know, I. I apologize for getting Denmark and Holland confused sometime.

[Host 2]

All of our Scandinavian listeners are going to be furious.

[Host 1]

Only with you is next. And it's instantly recognizable as.

[Host 2]

It's a Dennis.

[Host 1]

A Dennis.

[Host 2]

That's a Dennis.

[Host 1]

It's like, you know, which is interesting to note. Like, Leaving this Town is not that different a type of song as Only with youh on paper. But Only with youh is just like, oh, that's Dennis. Because he loves. He loves using certain chords and like having a certain mood and he loves.

[Host 2]

Using a grand total of about 15 words to write the entire song and just repeating them over and over again. Yes, it's true. All I want to do Is spend my life with you All I want to do Ooh. Is spend my life with you Ooh And I say this with all the love and warmth in my heart because I find it very affecting. It's, you know, it's beautiful music. And this one's actually sung by Carl. Dennis wrote it, but Carl sang it. It's a Dennis song. I love a Dennis song. I know you're not quite as. Not often quite as much of a fan.

[Host 1]

I just wish. I like Dennis's voice a lot, so I wish that he sang more.

[Host 2]

Yeah. There's some reason, I don't know, because he doesn't, you know, between this and Steamboat, Carl is singing both of those songs. You know, Dennis has some backing vocals on Steamboat at least, but I guess there's some reason that he's not really not. Oh, you know what it was. I know what it was. I read this in one of these books earlier today. Today.

[Host 1]

Blew out his voice, yelling at some girl.

[Host 2]

That probably happened, you know, in the red light district there in Amsterdam. But no. Halfway through the recording session of Holland, Dennis moved to the Canary Islands and was just gone for the rest of the making of this record. So I think that might have something to do with it. He had just literally up and left and said, fuck this shit. I'm out. Canary Islands. I don't even know where those are.

[Host 1]

You know, next to the Bluebird, over the mountain Islands.

[Host 2]

No, no, no. Canary Islands. Spanish Archipelago off the coast of northwestern Africa. Sure. Thank you, Dennis.

[Host 1]

Is that near Holland?

[Host 2]

I mean, it's closer to Holland than California is. It's, like, off the coast of Morocco.

[Host 1]

Yeah. No, I don't. Yeah. Anyway, Leaving this town into Only with youh Snooze City.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

No way around that.

[Host 2]

You gotta. You gotta break. No question about it. I think Only with youh is a great song. Very modeling. Very. Very over the top. That. That very dramatic piano. I think it deserves Dennis's vocal, to be honest. That ruddy, you know, kind of throaty bark that he's evolving into at this moment, devolving into at this moment. Carl's vocals are almost a little bit too pretty for a song like this.

[Host 1]

Especially when there's, like, not a lot of lyrics.

[Host 2]

When there is a whole lot more texture. Exactly. If Carl's gonna sing it, we need to have some jeweled, you know, jeweled that he's Singing about He can't just be saying love. So many things that I feel I've only felt with you Only with you That's. That's Dennis language. We need to hear it from Dennis.

[Guest]

It's true All I wanna do oh with you, oh All I wanna do oh Is spend my life with you yes, it's true I wanna spend my life with you All I wanna do Is spend my life.

[Host 1]

Next we got.

[Host 2]

Funky Pretty, the last song on the record.

[Host 1]

That's a weird choice.

[Host 2]

Funky Pretty, I gotta say.

[Host 1]

Side two of this album, not as good as side one.

[Host 2]

No, it's not as good as side one. I think Funky Purdy is great. I think the Traitor. Fucking fantastic. I think Funky Purdy is great. I think Only with youh is really good and is sort of just a bummer coming right after leaving this town. All this music is fantastic. It just isn't maybe packaged and sequenced as effectively as it could be.

[Host 1]

But anyways, this is Brian.

[Host 2]

This is Brian. He's back.

[Host 1]

I mean, a title like Funky Pretty.

[Host 2]

Funky Pretty. Of course.

[Host 1]

That sounds like Brian. Well.

[Host 2]

And this again, I think, like we talked about on the spring record, some of the songs there. Anticipating what he's gonna do on Love U. This song also very clearly, to me, anticipating the Moog driven mania that he's gonna devolve into, evolve into, in that case, over the next couple records. 15 big ones. And Love you. This is proto. Love you from top to bottom here.

[Guest]

Dance.

[Host 1]

Why?

[Guest]

Basic B rules of dance. She values flowers more than gold. She thinks of her men as matter of old. She's very spiritual. I told.

[Host 2]

Funky Pretty.

[Host 1]

Yeah, it's. It's that. That approach, which I think works on some records, which I really like, where the. The closer is like a bunt. Where it's kind of like we're not gonna. We're not gonna do some kind of crazy. We're not gonna make it like a dramatic high point. It. It is definitely a creative offshoot moment and kind of like an interesting change of pace. It's not like the worst thing, but I like your idea of. If the record had somehow closed with Salon Sailor. That would have been. That would have been cool.

[Host 2]

Yeah. I think a record that is bookended by. Because we didn't remark on it. Well, yeah, I mean, yes, I think it is. I think it. I think Funky Pretty is a great song. So it is already bookended by great songs, different songs. We didn't remark on it when we were saying. When we were talking about the Traitor. Another song about sailing. You know, about sailing across the ocean to distant lands of some sort. But a record that is bookended by those sailing songs. The Traitor into Sail on Sailor. I think that's, like, thematically very strong, and especially if you have California Saga there in the middle. And then just these other songs just pepper them, you know, a couple here, side, a couple there, side B, you're set. But obviously, you know, other folks had other ideas about this record. Anyways, this song is fun. It's about PI. You know, it's about astrology. This is the second astrology song on this record. Mike Love was getting into astrology on the Big Sur song. You big astrology head.

[Host 1]

No, I wouldn't say I'm a big astrology head.

[Host 2]

Is your girlfriend into astrology?

[Host 1]

Not really, no. I don't think that she knew her. No, I mean, she.

[Host 2]

Her chart.

[Host 1]

You know, the. Well, the joke is the. The gag is that if a guy knows his, like, sun and rising and moon, he's, as they say, ran through. He's a slut. And. Yeah, I. I do know all of those, but, you know, now I'm happily in a relationship.

[Host 2]

Fair enough. And my wife is sort of, like, casually into astrology and, like, knows it's a joke and is ironic about it, but also is serious about it at the same time, if you know what I mean.

[Host 1]

Yeah, well, I feel like is the.

[Host 2]

Right way to approach it.

[Host 1]

It's true.

[Host 2]

It's true as you want it to be.

[Host 1]

Well, you know, what I always say is there's things out there that are.

[Host 2]

Less true than astrology.

[Host 1]

Yeah, sure. Definitely. There's a lot of shit out there that is less true than astrology.

[Host 2]

Yeah. What's your late November? Is that Sagittarius?

[Host 1]

Sagittarius Sun, Scorpio, Moon, and Capricorn Rising. This means I'm, what, Impulsive, emotionally turbulent, and don't want to seem like either?

[Host 2]

Okay. Yeah, that checks out.

[Host 1]

Yeah. That is also. I happen to know that I have the same sun, moon and rising, apparently. I mean, because there's debate about when he was born, but every source I've looked up says that Billy the Kid has the same three.

[Host 2]

All right.

[Host 1]

And here's another crazy thing. Growing up, I was friends. I might have shared this on the program at some point. A childhood friend of mine, last name was Garrett. Literally a descendant of Pat Garrett.

[Host 2]

You were friends with Pat Garrett's great, great, great, great grandson?

[Host 1]

That's right.

[Host 2]

I hope you shot him in the back like the coward Pat Garrett was.

[Host 1]

Well, let me Tell you, a crazy thing that happened is that he pushed me once into the pool as a joke at his house and got in big trouble for it and then was yelled at. And he was crying and crying. He was inconsolable. And I can't help but think about that as being parallel to the situation of Pat Garrett and his friend Cowards.

[Host 2]

From top to bottom.

[Host 1]

I wonder where he is out there. Hopefully he doesn't hear this, but yeah. The Astrology. What does it say in Funky Pretty about astrology?

[Host 2]

Well, this song is about a funky and pretty woman who is a Pisces lady. And we're told that her calendar is not like ours. She rules the hours. The hieroglyphs mark changing hours. She rules the stars. Her guiding light is from the stars. She's got the powers reverse.

[Host 1]

What's yours? What are yours?

[Host 2]

I don't know. I'm Taurus sun, my moon and rising. My wife knows, but I don't know the other one, but Taurus. So I'm stubborn and I like fancy things. Well, yeah, yeah, both of those things. Check out.

[Host 1]

My girlfriend's a Taurus. So, you know, when's her.

[Host 2]

May or April?

[Host 1]

May 3rd.

[Host 2]

All right.

[Host 1]

Yeah, I've been friends with Tauruses in the past. Apparently, Earth sign and Fire sign, those get along.

[Host 2]

Yeah. Taurus is Earth. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. I think. I think Grace is Fire. She's Cancer, the crab.

[Host 1]

Matt, one of my very closest friends. Matt. Cancer. Yeah. Anyway, what's Brian?

[Host 2]

That's a great question, Brian. Well, I guess Brian's birthday's in June, right? Because remember, that's when that little video that Bob Dylan Sang? Yeah. June 20th. June 20th. Star sign.

[Host 1]

Gemini, just like Bob, like Kanye.

[Host 2]

Wow.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

So they're both Cusp Geminis. Listen to us. This is the Astrology podcast. Now, they're both Cusp Geminis, but Bob is a May Cusp Gemini because very early In May, he's May 21, I think. And Brian is a Cusp Gemini. But the end of Gemini, June into July. Fascinating, huh?

[Host 1]

Interesting. Moon in Virgo and Ascendant in Taurus. Gemini, Virgo, Taurus. All right, let's just throw in what's Mike Love's just for fun here, while we're at it. Mike Love astrology.

[Host 2]

Mike Love birthday. March 15th. Boy, the ides of March. Mike love Pisces. Is he Pisces?

[Host 1]

Pisces. Sun, Pisces Libra. Moon and Ascendant and Gemini Ascendant.

[Host 2]

Interesting.

[Host 1]

Anyway, I don't really know what that.

[Host 2]

Means exactly, but Apparently Pisces are compassionate, imaginative and empathetic. All. All statements that I would say accurately.

[Host 1]

Describe Cool Mike and what is a Gemini rising man? Like a social butterfly. Highly curious, adaptable, quick witted, charming. Enjoy stimulating conversations. Okay. Those are all the good qualities. And this is also written by an AI I'm sure.

[Host 2]

I love. Funky Pretty. It's a silly song. It's just ridiculous. And I think the way you put it is good. Sort of a bunt at the end of this record that, you know, we're not trying to wrap it up with some big, grand, big picture statement or anything. It's just like, you know, let's tack a nice little one on. This is the Denny's drums of this record. Let's have a little fun with it.

[Host 1]

It wasn't initially. I mean, the way this record is strung together is kind of not typical of. It wasn't even supposed to be this way. There was going to be Mount Vernon and Fairway was intended, at least by Brian, to be on this.

[Host 2]

Someone intended it exactly. But the rest of the man was not having it. I think we've gone quite long enough on Holland itself. So why don't we call it here and we'll talk about Mount Vernon and Fairway on its own little separate episode. Just like the song or the suite of songs was included in the Holland record package as its own separate little record.

[Host 1]

How many stars?

[Host 2]

Three stars. Holland. One of the great Beach Boys records. Easy.

[Host 1]

Yeah, this gets three for me. You know, just like. I don't think that the second half is that great. But it's also a record that's definitely worth listening to. And I think it's got a lot of kind of miraculous right turns.

[Host 2]

They're back. They got the juice. Of course, they don't realize it. And they don't actually have the juice at the time. Because this record doesn't sell. And they go on hiatus basically as a record making concern for the next three years. Because Brian Wilson goes Eugene Landymon. But that's a conversation for another day. Just to square the circle here at the end of this episode. And I said at the beginning, Holland could in many ways be called the ballad of Jack Riley. He's gone at the end of this record. Stephen Gaines. When the Beach Boys packed to return to the United States after spending eight months in Holland, Jack Riley refused to go with them. Saying he'd decided to run the Beach Boys careers and brother record from Amsterdam. This naturally infuriated the group. And the problem was compounded by another situation. That had arisen during their stay. Remember, I mentioned earlier that there was a certain character that came along with Jack Riley, and it was a little unclear what this character was doing. It was reportedly noticed by members of the group that Jack's young male assistant seemed to be living with him. Whether the relationship was sexual or not was never determined. But in the. Not my words, Stephen Gaines words, in the homophobic enclave of the Beach Boys, enough of a shadow had been cast. Chip Racklin, Michael Klempner, Klempfner, Nick Grillo and others had suggested to the group that Jack Riley was, in fact, gay. Carl made the trip back to Holland and fired Riley.

[Host 1]

Wow. Wow, that's. I mean, that sounds like it was maybe just some. This is in Nick the Gaines book?

[Host 2]

Yes.

[Host 1]

Yeah. So who knows?

[Host 2]

Who's to say?

[Host 1]

Also, if that's true, then, you know, shame on the Beach Boys, I suppose, for being intolerant. On the other hand, maybe it was just like an inappropriate type of thing to who knows what the nature of the relationship was. Many sides to this story potentially, and I don't have any of the answers there.

[Host 2]

That's right. We're not here to hand down judgment after the fact. I mean, setting this whole story aside, Jack Riley was also, like, a crook and a charlatan and, like, mismanaged their money and lied about winning a Nobel Peace Prize. I don't know why they even believed or. No, it wasn't a Nobel, it was a Pulitzer. Lied about winning a Pulitzer. Like, I don't know why they would have ever believed that a guy like this had won a Pulitzer in the first place. But he had plenty of his own bullshit. Him. Whether or not he was kicked to the curb because of his, you know, sexual orientation. Who knows? Who's to say if he was not. Not great. But, you know, setting that aside, who. Who knows? You know, he's another colorful character in this very colorful cast of human beings. You know, the California saga itself of Brian Wilson and the Beach Boys.

[Host 1]

Next time we're going to talk about the other thing.

[Host 2]

Stay tuned. Mount Vernon Fairway, Jokerman.

[Guest]

So remember, why she lift up my. Why she looks like.