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- [00:00]
A
Jokerman podcast is brought to you by Distrokid and their new direct to fan tool. Allowing any artist to sell merch. Distrokid Direct allows artists to create a merch store in minutes without any upfront costs or any technical skills or know how they'll take care of all the logistics and the nitty gritty. And as with distribution through Distrokid, they never take a cut of the proceeds. You, the artist, keep 100% of your earnings. Once again, that's Distrokid Direct. Open a store today@distrokid.com direct.
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B
This could be considered a track.
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C
Not really, though.
- [00:45]
A
We don't want to do that.
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D
This is a little intro, you know, Brian.
- [00:49]
B
All right, here we go.
- [00:50]
E
Countdown time.
- [00:51]
B
One, two, three, go. Okay, boys, do it.
- [01:07]
C
Welcome back to Jokerman. And today we have several special guests to mark a very special occasion, a very special boxed set. I'm Evan.
- [01:21]
A
I'm Ian. And that's right here to celebrate and speak in great detail about. We Got a Groove. Incredible new release coming. Coming from Beach Boys Industries. We've got Howie Edelson, James Saez, and Alan Boyd. Gentlemen, welcome to the show.
- [01:38]
E
Thanks for having us.
- [01:39]
B
Hello.
- [01:40]
F
Thank you guys. Appreciate it.
- [01:42]
A
Pleasure is truly all ours. I guess before we get in, a lot to talk about. Obviously, this is a hell of a box set that we are just made for here on old Jokerman podcast. But before we go, maybe let's go around the room and just fill us in, fill the listeners in on who y' all are, what roles you're playing in this. This beautiful release. Howie, let's start with you.
- [02:06]
E
I co produced the Box with James and this is material that.
- [02:16]
C
Has been.
- [02:17]
E
Near and dear to my heart. And it actually started. The idea for this started the first day I Met Alan, maybe 15, 16 years ago, and through our mutual friend John Stebbins, we spoke out of all of the things we could talk about. This was. This era was what we talked about. And basically how it was an untapped resource, how it was so beloved, so under the radar for the mainstream fan, a lot of people. And this. This was you. Pet Sounds and Smile were basically as deep as hardcore fans were getting. New hardcore fans were getting. They weren't making the move back to Sunflower, they weren't moving back to Friends. They weren't even Moving forward to 15 big ones in Love you, the Brian's Back era. And we spoke in depth about. We both loved it and we both loved it for the same reasons. And this was quirky music this was odd music, but it was incredibly personal music. And the thing about this Brian's back era was maybe there were hopes that Brian would come back and be 1965 Brian, that Brian would be the top 40 Brian, that was so it was just, you know, an insatiable quest for new sounds and breaking ground. And Brian came back, but he came back completely on his own terms and following the breadcrumbs of the music he had been making over the past three years at home. And that paid no attention to the charts or his past, to say the least. Yeah.
- [04:40]
A
James, what role did you have to play in. We got a groove.
- [04:45]
F
Yeah. Thank you, guys. I co produced it with Howie and I did all the mixing, all the technical work and all the engineering that was kind of involved in it. John Brody and I focused on the transfers early on, making sure we had all the material where it was supposed to be. And that, you know, that was before we even got involved in the kind of mixing side. And we worked for quite a while with Alan on like, the track listings and the format. And as Howie just said, you know, this came out of a real love and want to always put this together. So I think, you know, there were a lot of talks just about how to package it and put it together in a way that was going to be cohesive and kind of curated and feel like a, you know, less of a. Just here are all these songs and more of kind of, you know, an adventure and something that people would listen to over and over again. Then I got involved in the technical stuff and. And dealing with the engineering, the mixing and the mastering that happened afterwards.
- [05:52]
A
Excellent. Yeah, making. Making magic happen with. With some of these tapes. Certainly, if. If you have heard. If anyone out there has heard the original adult child tapes, there's been a lot of cleanup work done to that stuff. So a job well done there. And then Alan, last but not least.
- [06:11]
B
Yeah, well, I mean, you know, I've been working with the Beach Boys for 31 years now, and the Love U era is. Is how he knows something I've always been fascinated with. I mean, I got that. I got the Love you album the day it came out, and I swear I have never heard anything like it before since. And one of the things that has always blown me away about that music is that, you know, sort of deceptively, deceptively, you know, simple. You know, the lyrics might be in some of the song choices and some of the bare bones instrumentation is concerned musically when you get into the chords and. And the internal harmonies. And, you know, just the sheer musicality of it. A lot of that is just as deep and complex and beautiful in its own way as is anything on that sounds. It's just in a completely different. Completely different package. And, you know, Howie and I have been talking about this one, obviously for like 15 years. I'm just glad we finally had the chance to. To work together on it. And, you know, I had an amazing time working with Jim on a couple of the mixes. There were some things from the 15 big one sessions that I wanted to get my hands on for 30 or 40 years because it just felt like we weren't really hearing what was going on there. And as Howie will recall, we took a deep dive into a lot of those era tapes about 20 years ago and kind of did some very rough faders up mixes on, reference mixes on a lot of these things just to hear what was actually on the tape. And we were blown away. You know, there were some really interesting and highly eccentric things that Brian was laying down the tape that didn't make it onto the final mix of 15 big ones because, you know, having spoken to a lot of the people in the era at that time, there was kind of an effort to dial down the eccentricity or the. Of the musical textures to make it sound a little bit more normal in 1976 pop, you know, pop showcase. And so we've gone and, you know, sort of lifted up the curtain on a couple of those songs. And I also think this is a way to sort of celebrate the incredible work that Carl Wilson did as a Mixtown engineer on the original release of Love U.
- [09:13]
E
This is something that Boyd had told me the day we met was he was explaining just what the faders up versions of these tracks were, what was missing, what was peeled back, what was enhanced. And the way, Alan, if you can just explain this, because the way that. The gist that I got that day was that Carl was always trying to serve the project, trying to serve Brian, trying to serve the project. And that he was the one that kind of dialed back and made 15 big ones safer and more accessible to radio, to fans, and that he also, you know, alternately liberated Love you after Brian was kind of done with whatever preliminary mixing he was. He was doing. You can just explain what Carl really did. I think that's a really interesting note.
- [10:23]
B
Yeah, well, in terms of 15 big ones, ARO was not really dialed in on the mixing process for that one at all. You know, it was more, you know, Steve Moffat and, you know, kind of, you know, kind of Mike Love and, you know, sort of getting more. Getting more kind of direction there overall. And that was much more. Steve Moffat working with Brian. Carl was very unhappy with the. With the way 15 big ones turned out. And we even have a couple of, you know, rough mixes of 15 big ones outtakes that were produced by Carl that are, you know, very different than, you know, what we've been hearing. It was on Love you that Carl stepped in and he was the one who really gave that album some dynamics. Because at that point in time when Brian would go in and lay down a track for something like, say, let Us Go on this Way or, you know, tonight so Young, if you go back to the original 24 track, everything is pretty much full bore from beginning to end. There aren't a lot of dynamics in what Brian laid down. He just kind of everything at once as quickly as he could, and that was it. What Carl brought to the mixdown process.
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C
Was.
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B
He was really good at figuring out what not to put in. So for a song like Let It Go on this Way, which. Oh, that's one of my favorite opening tracks for anything anywhere. I mean, that. That grabbed me when I first heard it and it still does to this day. Carl dialed down. So you have that be, you know, that kind of brilliant first. First verse where it's really just, you know, it's just that incredible synth synth base which he gives a left right delay to, that's really way up front. And then he's bringing in more elements as the song progresses. The night with so Young is another perfect example of that, where the original 24 track is just kind of everything going throughout. And there were actually elements on that. On that multi that Carl, I believe, very wisely opted not to use at all. I mean, there's a rather prominent guitar track, you know, sort of acoustic, not. Not acoustic, but a strummed electric that the song just really didn't need. And the final mix that Carl did, it's got this lovely build where it starts off really quiet and then, you know, when it goes into the second and third verses, he brings in a lot of the other elements. So it's got this kind of nice build to it. So, you know, what Carl really brought was some serious dynamics he worked with. I think he worked with Earl Mankey on. On really getting the drums on a couple of tracks, particularly Honking down the highway to have some power and some resonance because they're quite thin on the multi. And it was interesting because when I first bought that album, you know, and I'm looking at the credits, I saw this mix down producer Carl Wilson. I'd never seen a credit like that before. And it wasn't really until many years later when we pulled the Love U tapes and really kind of examined them and dissected them, that I came to appreciate just how important that that credit was.
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E
Well, Alan, would you say that that credit really should have been a co producer credit, or do you think that it should have been a mixed buy? Because it's somewhere in the middle, isn't it?
- [14:33]
B
It's hard to say. I mean, I think for the Beach Boys, you know, on a marketing point of view and so forth, it was probably important to have it be produced by Brian Wilson.
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F
Sure.
- [14:47]
B
I mean, producer credits, as we know, are sort of a tricky and political thing as it is. And they always have been, you know, continues to be and always will be, you know, so.
- [15:00]
C
Yeah, but on some level I. I find this really interesting because that's an aspect of the story that I. Maybe it's just because we're like really so deep in it at this point, but I'm like, wow. I. I didn't realize that it was more in some ways collaborative between the brothers there. That there was like as much input going on from Carl. I've never really thought about him, honestly, in that capacity and especially on that record. I would have. I would have thought that it was mostly Brian making these choices because the record has this very colorful, punchy quality.
- [15:41]
B
The truth is that by that time, you know, Brian's patience for post production, really, he just. He really didn't have any. He wasn't terribly interested in that process. And in a way, I think you can kind of hear it in the original mixes for a lot of the Adult Child stuff because they kind of sound very much like, you know, let's just do it and get it out. Okay, that's fine. Good. Let's move on.
- [16:14]
E
Adult Child he has always sounded like love you without the fairy dust, without the magic, without, you know, without the colors. And I love it for that. I mean, a lot of people, when they talk about Adult Child, they talk about the orchestral tracks. And I've always loved the. The brothers playing together, which, you know, everybody wants to live and line trying to say. I mean that to me, I just. I really love that. And you know, to anyone else, that would be a demo, I mean, especially in. In 1977, in the face of what's going on, in the face of the Stranger, you know, like to put out, you know, everybody wants to live it's it's so bare bones. It's so. And it's so strange because, you know, a year later there's the. Or not even a year later, the Brian demo for Almost Summer, which is obviously a demo, but essentially just has kind of an unmixed, unmastered. Same sound as adult child. It's not that much different. And I. I find every. Every facet of Brian's journey to be informative and fascinating. And I always feel that even if people think it was a step backwards, it's always forward. It was always forward. And I love this material. I love the songs. You know, Mike.
- [18:02]
C
Love.
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E
Love the fact that Brian was completing songs. And there's. There's something about love you. Where you're getting songs, you're getting records. It's like. It's for the first time in. In three or four years, you know, like records. He's making records. Yes, that. It's not the little girl. I wants new. These aren't hit singles, but they are records. And I think it's a logical progression from funky pretty. But I also think that, you know, something that Brian. And this is something interesting that Darian had told me when I told him this. Darius Ahanaja. I had always thought when I started delving into this period and listening to the bootlegs and listening to the tapes and where you really hear this in the fairy tale from Holland that Daryl Dragon used a lot of Brian Wilson sounds and ideas for Love Will Keep Us Together. There's a lot of Brian Wilson there and not, you know, California girls, Brian Wilson, their 70s, you know, 72, 73. Burping. Burp.
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C
Yeah, that's a good word for it.
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E
And you knew he heard it because he was inside and they were. He was part of the extended family still. And I think there was a piece of Brian where it was like, whoa, someone tapped into my mojo. I think there was. I think, you know, maybe I'm projecting, but I feel like that. And then Darian had told me that there was a Grammy event that they were at when I told him this idea. And someone had asked Brian what's. What song do you wish you had written? And Brian said, love will keep us Together for the first time anywhere ever mentioned it. Nobody even knew if he knew the song until then. So I think Brian knew he was on to something and there was some type of competitive spark that turned him on to start completing material.
- [20:31]
B
Well, that also. And just having, you know, having Landy's bodyguard there saying, you gonna finish the song if you Want to have lunch? I mean, there was a certain amount of that going on, too, in the. In the sessions at Brother, so. But Brian was. You know, you listen to that music. He was definitely inspired. And I was always blown away by the orchestral tracks from Adult Child, where, you know, Brian was getting ambitious and he. You know, he was thinking of doing these songs that he wanted to offer to. To Frank Sinatra.
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C
Was Life Is for the Living one of the. Did he want Sinatra to sing that?
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B
Yeah, Life Is maybe. Life Is for the Living was one of those tracks that was arranged. He brought in the old. For freshman arranger Dick Reynolds, who had also done all the charts for the ketchup tracks on the Beach Boys Christmas album back in 1954. He brought him in, you know, and they also did Deep Purple, which is an old standard, old great American songbook standard, But It's over now and Still I Dream of it. And those orchestral tracks are amazing. And I just gotta say, when I. When I first really listened to what.
- [21:52]
E
James.
- [21:54]
B
Did with those tracks, those orchestral tracks, I. I literally, you know, I broke down crying the first time I heard James's new mixes of Still I Dream of It. It's over now, they just completely blew me away. Those are incredible arrangements, partially because they are incredible song, deep down. And I. I'm just grateful we've had an opportunity to put a little spotlight on, you know, on Brian's compositions from that period, but also his instincts in bringing in the right person to help him realize what he was hearing in his head.
- [22:44]
A
Sure, yeah. James, could you maybe speak to whatever extent you want to, if you want to get super deep into the weeds or just give us a Cliff Notes version, but, like, you know, the adult child material here, for me, for my money, I think that's, you know, one of the most thrilling things here. Obviously, we've heard the boot bootlegs a zillion times, but, like, here it is in high Fidelity, you know, as great a quality as you could ever want it to be. Could you just talk a little bit about, like, how, like, how you made these things sound as good as they sound?
- [23:12]
F
Well, you know, first of all, I have to say thank you. It's kind and, you know, hearing Alan say that and having an emotional impact like that on somebody that has spent so much of his life working. This material is emotional for me. I. I just, you know, that's what you hope for and pray for, that you can convey a message with music like this. Like, yes, there's technical stuff to it, but the energy and the tone of what you're doing, you're really taking some chances. I've been fortunate enough to work on a lot of orchestration and a lot of kind of movie score and. And kind of bigger things where I'm really trying to pull emotional context and dynamics out of, you know, out of mixing like that. So I felt like that. That big run from, like, the backing track tracks of Deep Purple and It's over now and Still I Dream of it and ending in what I felt like was a huge crescendo with Holy man was one of my favorite sections of the whole kind of process, just because I felt like one. It was organic in a sense that, you know, you can see kind of this arc of what they were trying to do. And because the material is just so well recorded, and I could really sink my teeth into cinematic sonics and in ways without being, you know, too connected to the vocal, like, I could. I could kind of branch out and put stuff more forward maybe in the mid range that I couldn't do before, because there are vocals in there. I remember doing just once in my life. The backing track I did first, and we weren't supposed to do that song with the vocal. And then I did the backing track and I sent it to these guys who are my, you know, my kind of, you know, Mount Rushmore of Am I On the Right Track? And immediately they were like, we got to do one with the vocal in it. You know, and that's really exciting. And I did have to change the mix a little bit to facilitate the vocal, because I wasn't expecting to mix it that way. I was. You know, I was. We were really just going for an instrumental, but I was also trying to highlight what we talked about earlier, which is. I do feel like Carl and Dennis were really taking a step forward into the material at this point. And I feel like when I heard a lot of the rough mixes and sketches and things like that, they were, you know, a little bit behind, where the vocals were forward, which I totally get. But I feel like they played such a supportive and encouraging role. And we're so excited to have Brian writing at this point and to have Dennis back on the drums, you know, for the first time in a long time, really playing on these recordings. I really wanted to make him sound more muscular and more forward and more kind of, you know, these guys were all in it together, and I just. I felt that brother thing involved in it, and I. You know, technically, there's a million things we could talk about. Like, as far as Doing research on what was actually in the studio at the time, like, getting. John Brody had given me a kind of outboard gear list and all the stuff that was at Brother Studio. And I turned off a lot of the more modern gear, which I've talked about, that I use for, you know, 2025 mixes, and really tried to kind of emulate and stick with some of the sounds that they'd already done, but to, you know, make it modern, but still connect it to everything that was there. Because I was really scared that, you know, in 1976 or 75 mix was going to sit next to a new mix and how that might be jarring and difficult to stick together and not have it feel out of place. So that was. That was my biggest lift and my big, you know, kind of first task in. In, you know, tackling this stuff technically.
- [27:19]
E
Well, it's like you. It's like, you guys know about, you know, like, Velvet Underground. Another view. Sure. And you could hear those 1985 velvet mixes. Totally. And it was just like, with these. All of a sudden, these triggered drums and these gated drums on a 1969 track.
- [27:38]
A
There's something uncanny about.
- [27:40]
E
Ruins it. It ruins it.
- [27:42]
C
We speak, maybe I speak for a lot of people when I say, James, that it's great to hear that you were afraid of that happening. That you were thinking, you know, that's. That's what I think the fans really want. All we can hope for is that someone in that. In your position is thinking, I don't want to make this feel incongruous with the essence of the thing. Of the thing itself.
- [28:09]
F
Yeah, exactly. That's what. That's super. Well said.
- [28:11]
B
Well, one of the. One of the great things about having James on this project was that he's new to the Beach Boys. You know, he's not bringing 20 or 30 years of expectations or baggage. And a lot of this material was unfamiliar to him. And it turns out he's got great instincts for this kind of a thing. And he's got a. You know, I guess he's a little bit closer in terms of not only working with our orchestral stuff, but maybe kind of more. More of a punk sensibility in. In some of the stuff that he's worked on in the past. It's a. You know, it's a different point of view, but really appropriate for this particular batch of music. And, you know, he brought fresh ears. He didn't have a lot of expectations with it, so we got the benefit of. Of really getting. It's hard to Put in the words. But, you know, he brought fish fresh ears to this project and you know, kind of in a way brings new life from that perspective.
- [29:26]
A
Right, man for the job. Easy as that.
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C
A record that famously, infamously, legendarily, like, doesn't have much of a connection sonically to the rest of the Beach Boys catalog either. And one which I think is a lot of people's favorites who are in. Involved in kinds of music that I think you would describe as being more alternative. And even to this day, it's like looked at with a kind of reverence from the point of view of like the beginnings of synth pop and electro pop music.
- [30:03]
B
So I still think it's significant that it was. It was Patty Smith of all people.
- [30:08]
C
Right? Yeah, yeah.
- [30:09]
B
Wrote such a glowing review about the song, about that album when it came out.
- [30:15]
C
Yeah, exactly.
- [30:16]
B
77.
- [30:17]
A
Yeah. A lot of the package here. James, you mentioned, I think at the beginning, everyone talking about and trying to figure out how do we sequence this, how do we choose what to include, how do we kind of put these songs together to tell a story of sorts. And it's right there in the title, after the colon, We Gotta Groove the Brother Studio Years. So it seems like Brother Studios, the literal physical space, you know, kind of exists as this center of gravity for all this music. I had somehow either forgotten or never realized that that was actually a former porno theater there in Santa Monica that they turned into this incredible whiz bang studio space. Howie, could you just kind of maybe like tell us, you know, what Brother Studios, what's the deal there?
- [31:07]
E
It was, interestingly, before it was even functional. They had started using the space to mix the Beach Boys in concert album. It was built by Steven Moffat, who had played a part in Village Recorders. He was their engineer. He was their live engineer. He was their studio engineer. He had taken over their Bellagio studio from the great Steven Desper. Dennis had found the space and had wanted it. I think he had been there several times in his former structure.
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A
Shocking.
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C
He was casing it out, see, like, would this be a good studio? That's why he was going in there.
- [32:03]
E
So Steven Moffat basically went in there with Jason Rafalian, who was the Beach Boys roadie, long suffering roadie and a hero in many ways. And they ripped the chairs out. You know, it was still. There were chairs in there and they. They ripped it out. And he, Stephen, a very spiritual guy, goes by the name Shiva now, he commissioned the stained glass for the space. And behind the stained glass was essentially the tape vault. It wasn't really a vault, but the. Where. Where the. Where their masters, past and present, could be stored. And there was also a. There was a back room and a storage room. And a lot of, A lot of recording went on outside of the. Within the structure, but outside of the studio proper for acoustic reasons, for space reasons, et cetera. And it really was the vision of Moffat. Moffat was creating a place that first of all, Moffat was also always had one eye because they had said, we want this to be a commercial space, we want this to be an investment. So he was eyeing this thing as far as being a working studio, you know, in west la. And there were not many people that recorded there. You know, it was, you know, the Raspberries, Eric, Carmen Rather, Helen Reddy, Elton, you know, there were, there weren't that many people. And Earl Mankey, the second engineer, was bringing in the young blood. But Dennis was coming into his own as a songwriter and a record maker. And Dennis would push people's sessions out and pay them back and reimburse them, say, I need the studio tonight. So this was not really a feasible working situation. It drove Moffitt nuts because he was trying to. Every night, you know, Brian would be recording during the, during this period, Brian would be recording in the late morning, early afternoon. Dennis would be coming in at night and recording all night. And, you know, open ended on every level, musically, sonically, time. It became his home, it became his validation, whereas it was the exact opposite of Brian. Brian was very much one and done. Get me out of here, I'll get it down and then I'll leave. But Moffatt built this place basically to his specs. I mean, Alan, can you talk about the board that they were using for this, this during this period?
- [35:08]
B
You know, I'm not really technically qualified to talk about it, but it was apparently quite impressive. I mean, there had some, some high powered clients, in particular Kim Fowley of all people.
- [35:24]
C
Really?
- [35:24]
A
Wow.
- [35:25]
B
Who brought in, I mean, he did an entire album with Helen Reddy, of all people.
- [35:31]
E
And Runaways. He brought Runaways in.
- [35:34]
B
He brought the Runaways in. He brought some people on one off projects. You know, some people turned out to be friends of mine years later. But he really, he really loved that studio, you know, and he was still talking about it, you know, at times when I would get together with him in the, you know, in the years before, you know, the years before he passed away, I also, I also gave all of Kellen Ready's tapes back to her son because, you know, we still have, in the, In The Brother Vault, a number of tapes, because clients sometimes would finish an album project and just leave the tapes behind. And you know, over the years I've managed to repatriate a bunch of those. But, you know, Elton John, you know, did some, some fabulous work there. It was apparently a good space. And it's interesting just in my own thing when I was a kid, you know, I'm 15 years old when Love you came out. And a little while later came the Ricky Martin album Beach that was produced by Carl and Billy Hinchi. Right again with really fascinating, unique, interesting sonic textures unlike anything I've ever heard before or since. And not long after that comes Dennis's Pacific Ocean Blue again, Brother Studios. And I was convinced there was something. There had to have been something really magical about that place. If you listen to those three albums, you know, Love you and beach and Pacific Ocean Blue again, sonically going places I've never heard anyone go to before since.
- [37:25]
F
Just from a technical standpoint. That was a Clover system console that was built by Gordon Rudd at the time. And it had a large patch bay. It had a thousand point patch bay which was pretty big. And the room was like what, 34, 35ft by 27 with a 12 foot ceiling. So it was a pretty decent sized room, you know, not as big as say Capital or like one at Western, but way bigger than for instance, the Pet Sounds room that is at east west now, which I work in all the time. So it was a bigger room. But they had UCC 7s, they had C12s, they had, you know, all sorts of outboard gear, Capex and, you know, Yuri stuff and compressors and limiters and I'm getting technical, but they had an AKG spring unit which was like, I can hear on things, an Echo Plex and obviously a huge keyboard arsenal, which is really where the ARP and the, you know, the Mode stuff came in and really allowed, you know, Brian to kind of take these things in his head and kind of feel like he could record stuff and do stuff and write stuff without having, you know, a ton of session musicians. I mean, the amount of tack pianos I mixed on this record is staggering. And they're not. They're not the same tack piano. There's like. There was like four different tack pianos that were, you know, kind of roaming around that area.
- [38:52]
A
Yeah, I wonder if, I mean if one of you, whoever wants to jump in here or maybe multiple, but can maybe speak to the mindset that Brian is in during the recording, particularly of Love U and into the adult child material maybe a little bit less so 15 big ones. But because he's able to do so much of this on his own, you know, he doesn't need to bring in a bunch of session players. He doesn't need to have Mike and Al and you know, other people coming in to, you know, pick nits on lyrics and you know, kind of try to change direction here and there. Like he's able to just kind of do what he wants to do. And obviously Carl's coming in after the fact, you know, in the mix down role and stuff. But like, I do feel like the, the sonic palette of Love U in particular, which is so synthesizer heavy, Moog and ARP based, ends up showing up like that. That reflects in like the actual kind of like themes of the record and the subject matter of the songs, which sound like little windows into Brian Wilson's soul.
- [39:54]
E
I think it's a good question. And I think, you know, you can tie this back in some ways. You know, as bizarre as it sounds, that you can tie this back into Pet Sounds. I think you can also in ways tie this back to John Lennon Plastic Ono Band in that this is such a raw, true statement and it's using very. Even though these aren't basic instruments, it's basic instrumentally. It's. It's not dense.
- [40:23]
A
Right.
- [40:23]
E
And it's odd. And I think Brian Wilson at 34 was pretty odd and I think his life was, was pretty, was pretty weird. And I think being dormant to whatever extent he was is well documented. His, his issues, his troubles and for whatever the impetus was to throw him back into being a commercial recording artist. Yeah, I mean, it came out on the tape. I think in, in a lot of ways Pacific Ocean Blue has elements of John Lennon Plastic Ono Band in that it is so real. There is no pretense, there's no, you know, this is so far away from, from Sunflower, you know, where, you know, Brian was still doing lush and beautiful work. And Brian was still in this gravelly voice, in this gravelly keyboard in these sometimes harsh mixes. It's still beautiful, you know, there's still these dandelions popping up through, you know, asphalt. And he couldn't. There was this part of him that couldn't, could not be beautiful and endearing either. You know, despite being in outer space. That's why it sounds like a spaceman. You know, it's this man caught in outer space. It's like, you want me to make an album? Okay, well, here it is.
- [41:59]
A
Be careful what you wish for.
- [42:00]
B
Well, the nice thing too, with, you know, with the way it was kind of Big Brother and the. In the synthesizer stuff, it was very easy for Brian to just lay down a bunch of tracks and get it out of his system. By this point in time, he didn't have a lot of patience. And you can actually hear this going back to the. Especially the later sessions of Smile. It was just very satisfying for Brian to just. He can come in, do a couple of takes. He's got this musical idea in his head, and instantly, there it is. Bam. Done. Cool. Now we can move on to the next thing. So there's an immediacy to his work on Love U that I find very contagious. I don't know how else to put it.
- [42:51]
A
Yeah, absolutely. I think there's a story about, like, Johnny Carson. When I, you know, when we talked about Love U, I was, you know, doing some reading about it, and I think the quote or the. The apocryphal story is brunch just wakes up one morning, he's like, God damn it, there should be a song about Johnny Carson. And I'm gonna write one. And he did it. And then now there's the song. Johnny Carson exists for all the rest of time, and that was just the product of a passing little fancy of his one, you know, Tuesday Morning.
- [43:18]
C
I've never really thought about John Lennon in this context in Plastic Ono Band. But I think it's a really important kind of. It's a very helpful, like, contextualizing factor, like, because it feels almost like a double standard. Like, because John Lennon's always been doing kind of, like absurd and really earnest and really intense music, but somehow he's John Lennon and nobody is, like, looking askance. It just makes him the coolest guy in the world. But when. When you want to make a song about Johnny Carson and your Brian Wilson, suddenly everyone's like, well, that's kind of strange. But when, you know, it's. I don't know, there's. It's so obvious that, like, in a. In a post Beatles world especially, it's like you've already gotten, like, you have I Am the Walrus. And then, like, how are you going to say that any of this stuff is, like, too crazy?
- [44:16]
E
I also thought, you know, when, you know, late 80s, early 90s, when kids were getting into fish and there was. I remember hearing an early track, Susie Cream. I'm not a fish head by any stretch.
- [44:32]
A
Neither are we. Don't worry about it.
- [44:34]
E
I was hearing this. This silly stuff. It was silliness and people were very. They were getting off on the silliness. You know, it was the height of the Dead resurgence by. With the teens and college kids and they were going off into fish and they were hearing this silly stuff. And I always saw Brian, yes, there was a little bit of Sid Barrett, but there was also a lot of Zappa. There was a lot of like people that were digging Fish and the silliness and that. Brian was able to do all of that, but he always did it on a Beatles level. It was always on a Beatles level and it was just so far away. He's so not European. He's so American.
- [45:24]
A
He was so fault.
- [45:27]
E
You know, there's something very hamburger and fries about Brian. There always was till the day he died. You know, he would. The way he would say things, the way he would think about things, the way he would explain things. It was very much a guy born in suburban BE in 1942, he. That never left him. So being an artist and being, you know, an artist that was making music in personal troubled times, not as a youngster, like with no, like, you know, I was talking with Mike yesterday and we were talking about Johnny Carson and he was like, that was, he was like, you know, Johnny Carson, he goes, it was brilliant, but it was not aimed at the top 40. He goes, it wasn't even aimed at album oriented rock. He was like, there was, there was no home for it. Like, there was no, there was no space for that. There was no place that was going to embrace that. And he was like, the thing with Brian was it. It's like, is it brilliant or is it not brilliant? And if it was brilliant, you went with it. You just, you know, who are you to say no? That was kind of his, what he was saying.
- [46:49]
B
You know, many times over the years I would ask Brian, you know, what his favorite album was, what his favorite Beach Boys album was. And he always answered, the Beach Boys love you often to the, you know, to the horror of some of the, the handlers and people around him. And I would always get a big laugh at. Laugh about that. I mean, there was one time on a, on a TV show when, you know, someone asks him, you know, what's your favorite Beach Boys album? And he goes, the Beach Boys love you. And he starts playing Ding Dang on a piano. It was a wonderful moment. But I know that some of the people who were sort of kind of running Brian Land at that time were kind of horrified. I know, because I was there and I just found it absolutely hilarious. But Brian genuinely loved that record. That was, you know, I think to the end, that was his favorite probably. Maybe because there wasn't a lot of drama and pain behind the creation. You know, he didn't have to necessarily go to those kind of really dark emotional places that he went to for Pet Sound and Smile and some of that stuff.
- [48:12]
C
Well, I like to think that the universe is bending toward justice with this release. I feel like it's not it. Those people might have laughed or been horrified then at his response, but I think more and more people listening to this are going to hopefully hear it with. With fresh ears and just know that this was Brian's favorite and then know it that way.
- [48:41]
A
Yeah, I mean, it is remarkable. It's not even worth saying, you know, perhaps, but, like, I feel compelled to do so anyways. Just like it. How remarkable it is that there is this extensive and loving of a presentation.
- [48:56]
B
Re.
- [48:56]
A
Presentation. Remaster. You know, digging up the tapes type box set of this material, of all the material. Like, of course it makes sense for the Pet Sound stuff. Of course it makes sense for Smile. You know, it even makes sense for, you know, some of the earlier 70s stuff, the sunflowers and the Surf's up and stuff like that. But like, to. To get this dense of a project out there into the world for this material of everything, just like the dream material of all the deepest, darkest Beach Boys nuts out there. Like, it's. I don't know. I don't know what else to say beyond, like, thank you to Beach Boys Industries and to you all for making this happen.
- [49:36]
B
I'm just glad we got Howie, you know, on the team after so many years. That's been a great thing here for this.
- [49:46]
E
But the thing is also, and I know that, you know, Boyd would know this better than anyone, and James, you too, because James heard a lot of stuff that we didn't. You know, it was a concerted effort to make this a collection and not just an album and outtakes. And this has ebb and flow and it's different, you know, eras of a day, you know, as Alan knows. There's also another box set of this stuff, you know, that we didn't get to. That didn't fit into this format. And I've said it before, you know, obviously not next. There are other things that are coming down the pike, but this. This vault is endless. And every era of this band has a deep, deep, deep well that has not even begun to be examined. Maybe Smile. You know, maybe Smile. Every Smile tape eventually can be digitized and released and get it all out there. I mean, I was very, very inspired by Michael Brower and what he did with the. With the Dylan catalog.
- [51:05]
B
Sure.
- [51:07]
E
I. You know, I always was pushing for not putting the actual albums on the box sets. And, you know, you look at field flows and you kind of have to have Sunflower there to explain the rest. And you need Sunflower. You're gonna have Sunflower. You need Surf's Up. Okay. I was not as convinced that we needed an UN Remixed Holland and. And so tough. But I understand the label wants that, I think, going forward now, because they wanted a flagship album. They always want a flagship album. And I can't blame them because a lot of people do love, love you and you want that a part of it. I think the next time we go back to this. To this era, if and when we can build a whole other trajectory of this material, because there is so much. And it's all. None of it's bad. None of it is Duff. It's just various states of completion. And it's not necessarily commercial, but, you know, it wasn't comm. I mean, Lovey wasn't commercial in 1977. So, you know, what does it matter now?
- [52:35]
A
It seems like it's more commercial now than it ever has been. It's the box. I've seen notices from the Instagram accounts. The box sets are totally sold out already.
- [52:43]
B
Yeah, I don't think Universal was expecting that.
- [52:49]
A
That those kind of orders, this much demand for. Ding Dang.
- [52:54]
B
Yeah.
- [52:56]
F
Yeah. The reaction's been really amazing. And I also think it's, you know, we're really trying to put out something that wasn't, like, you know, scholastic. Like, okay, here are these tapes, and here we're just gonna give them to you, and that's it. Like, we're really trying to make something that's not. You're gonna listen to it twice and you're gonna put it on the back shelf and maybe listen to it again next year. It was a real attempt to make something that you're going to listen to over and over again and have a new adventure in. And I hope we achieve that. I'm sure there's, you know, I'm sure we missed things and I'm sure, you know, we succeeded in places. But that was definitely the goal from the beginning in all of our talks. And this order changed at least, you know, seven, eight times during the mixing. And I actually went back and remixed certain things. And after I mixed it once and changed things so that the stuff in Front of it or behind it was going to feel connective and that it was going to go together and we wouldn't lose momentum in a section and that we would try to find ways to kind of, you know, keep it lively but changing and have you be able to drop a needle and enjoy it all the way through. So that's our big thing, is that the fans feel that way and that they do keep playing it and that they do love it. And when you see young people and, you know, groups of people that I'm surprised or, you know, in a feeding frenzy for it, that's just so exciting. And that's what keeps this band and this archive alive. Because there's, as Howie says, there's a lot more material like that. And every time something like this happens and we over perform on, you know, fan expectation and ordering, that gives us fuel to go back and, you know, do more stuff.
- [54:38]
E
And also there was, you know, there was one instance where we had changed a song around. I forget which it was. I mean, there were so many different permeations of this, but we had changed it around and then we had to restructure that side. So it was talks with Boyd and with Brody and how does this feel to you? The talks were very much not like, well, this is 3:46 and the next one is, you know, it was very much, how does this, how does this feel as a listen? And that's really when. When you get, when you can get to that point in making these things, that's the fun stuff. That's where you're feeling the love and feeling loved and you know that you're giving back to the community. Because if you're caring so much about this, you know, it's going to make a difference to someone who's listening to it, laying down with headphones, having a shitty day or driving and having the best day. But if you really care how this is presented, because it hasn't been presented, you know, it's been bootlegs and then, you know, now in this day and age, you make your own, you know, mixes and Apple music and whatever and itunes. You change your everything, you know, you change it to your whim, but at least presenting it so that if you do, you don't change means something sonically, emotionally. And that wasn't. We were not just saying, you know, we can't have more than 22 minutes on the side. We had to make sure that those 22 minutes said something and meant something and made you, hopefully made you feel something.
- [56:37]
F
Well, we had A blast too. I mean, like, it wasn't like we. I don't think there was any fights or arguments about anything.
- [56:45]
B
We.
- [56:45]
F
I mean, we really were like, all moving in the same direction and having a good time. And, you know, I remember, you know, Alan calling me about Chapel of Love and coming over to the studio and like, that stuff's great. I think that energy, if you have a joyous time making something and you come out the backside, I think you really feel it in the product and you feel it in the release. And I've done records where everybody's, you know, at each other and, you know, sometimes that tension is great in a band. Sometimes when you're making a record, like there's a, you know, a conflict that actually eggs them into writing in a. In a completely different way. But to make something like this and, and have it be such a positive experience and low drama and, you know, us all just really working like a team was, Was beautiful and I hope that comes across.
- [57:40]
B
I totally agree. And just want to put a word out there. You know, I brought in an assistant to help out in the vaults and eventually I think I'm going to sort of pass the keys to the archive over to Hume. But that's John Brody, whom you've heard us all mention here.
- [57:58]
F
Sure.
- [57:59]
B
He was, he was a wonderful, you know, help and inspiration at times on this project too.
- [58:05]
F
Yeah, he really was.
- [58:07]
B
And I'm just awfully glad that, you know, he was around. We. It's funny because the four of us had a wonderful time getting together at the old Western Studio, Studio One, you know, just to do some, you know, in house promotional interviews. And that was one of the nicest afternoons I've had in a long time. Just the four of us, you know, kind of celebrating this work, so.
- [58:34]
E
And blinding lights. Blinding lights, yeah.
- [58:39]
B
Oh, well, binding lights. But it was, this was. This project was definitely a joyous occasion to work on it. So.
- [58:47]
A
Well, it. It certainly sounds like it. You can hear it in the record. It's. It's joyous music from, from top to bottom. And so it's only right that it was a joyous experience putting it all together, maybe to wrap things up, not to put everyone too, too much on the spot here, but favorite, favorite inclusions, you know, favorite individual songs to make it onto the set. Anyone? Howie, you got one.
- [59:11]
E
Carl Wilson. It could be anything.
- [59:14]
A
That's fantastic.
- [59:15]
E
I think Embodies. You know, there's a portion of the box where it has Carl and Dennis's songs, and I wish we could have had more of that. And down the line we will. But the. Before Brian, it was decided that Brian was going to quote, unquote, come back. Basically Carl and, and Dennis and Mike and Al were creating music that was going to be the follow up for Holland. And it was not Roller Rink in the sky, 15 big ones. It was not Oberheim and, and. And Moog love you music. It was more straightforward. It did have. Since it had. It was rocking. It was beautiful. Dennis's Holy man was part of it. We've released a few others. Barnyard Blues. The. There was stuff. 75 tracks. And if they had finished it and gotten it together, it would have been a formidable follow up to. To Holland. It can be anything is personifies what that album would have sounded like. Brian wouldn't have been back. It wouldn't have been People magazine. It wouldn't have been an NBC TV special. It wouldn't. Wouldn't have been Brian on snl. A lot of things would have changed, but they would have been releasing a Competitive album in 75, 76 that wasn't soon derided. Do you agree, Alan?
- [61:07]
B
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, part of the issue with all this was the fact that they owed Warner Brothers so many albums. You know, Adult Child basically was kind of a really a contractual obligation thing. They just had. They had to deliver one more album to Warner Brothers in order to make good on the. The new arrangement. They had come up with Columbia, with cbs and they were way overdue on that one because. Because they still owed another record to Warner's, which eventually became, you know, eventually Miu filled that spot. A good year and a half behind schedule. But yeah, no, Holly, I think if they had. If they had gotten it together, you know, especially. It could be anything. That's to be one of my favorite tracks, you know, unreleased tracks on the whole Beach Boys archive. Absolutely.
- [62:12]
A
James, you got a favorite.
- [62:14]
F
I love Holy Man. That was really connective to me. That one stuck with me a lot. I mean they're right next to each other in the set list, which is. That's just a great section of what we put together. I love the let's Put Our Hearts Together demo, the cassette demo. I just love hearing Brian sitting at the piano and Mike like the. The completely unvarnished reaction of him listening to that song, you know, in the. In the first moment and, and how, you know, how he feels about it and then being able to have that on the same release as the actual finished product, I think is something I just don't. You don't See very often. And I think that makes this really special. And I. I really liked in the Back of my Mind. I. I thought that was a fascinating, intimate moment of Brian, that when he passed, that was emotional to me.
- [63:11]
A
Absolutely. Yeah. For my money, just to throw my hat in the ring, if there's one for me, it's that. It's in the back of my mind. Not even a demo, just like another. It's called Alternate Take. It's just Brian accompanying himself on the piano, you know, performing in the back of my mind ten years after the fact. Unbelievable. That was the first thing I went to as soon as I got the whole download here. That was number one with the bullet for what I wanted to hear. And it just continues to blow me away every time I hear it. Alan, you got a favorite?
- [63:43]
B
No, I have so many favorites on this record, it's hard to say. The one I kept coming back to, and I'm sure this is going to sound nuts with Chapel of Love. Wow. I had always wanted to. To go back and. And work with that particular. Particular song, and James. James indulged me on it, and we had a blast.
- [64:10]
F
Yeah.
- [64:11]
B
And that's something that I've been wanting to do for, like, 30 or 40 years. But, you know, holy, man, it could be anything. The. Or, you know, the orchestral tracks from Adult Child, where James kind of revealed some musicality in those instrumental. In those orchestral charts that I'd never actually heard before. So I would call it an embarrassment of riches.
- [64:41]
A
I think that's. That's exactly what it is.
- [64:44]
E
And, guys, just a shout out to Paul Moore, who did the beautiful artwork.
- [64:48]
B
Yes.
- [64:49]
E
I. Once again, this guy floors me. Floors me, you know?
- [64:56]
C
Yeah, it's magnificent looking.
- [64:59]
E
Yeah.
- [65:01]
B
You know, he's been doing these box sets with us with Universal for a while, and he's just amazing. And he's also an absolute joy to work with.
- [65:13]
A
Yeah, it's fantastic cover art. The booklet that's included also. I've only seen the digital version, but there's a just lovingly curated looking set of images. Howie, a fantastic essay from you. I loved the little advertisement for Brother Studios that seemed to run in the newspaper or run in a magazine or something like that. It's so cool.
- [65:35]
E
It ran once, and someone. A friend of Earl Manke's, he knew someone that knew about it, and I spoke to him and he's like, I think I have it. And he didn't. And it was like, what are we gonna do? And Al Gomes, a friend of mine and Boyd's A really good friend to the Beach Boys and for this era. He got it. He got it, and we were able to scan it. And it. I just feel like it makes the difference because it really shows. This was a place and this was a commercial place, and this wasn't a home studio. This wasn't some band that had a clubhouse. This was an actual place. And so thank you, Al, for delivering once again.
- [66:29]
B
Thank you, Al.
- [66:30]
A
Thank you, Al. Well, gentlemen, we can maybe leave it there. This is, you know, we barely even scratched the surface on this whole thing. I wanted to have a whole sidebar on sea cruise, but, you know, that's maybe a subject for another. Another day. It's. It's truly just, I think, a gift that we'll keep on giving here. So, you know, just put it on, folks. Whatever you're listening to, you can't go wrong again. Howie, James Allen, thank you so much for joining us. And thank you for. For all your incredible work on this beautiful set.
- [67:00]
F
Thanks, man.
- [67:01]
B
You're very welcome.
- [67:02]
E
Thank you.
- [67:03]
B
Thank you. Thank you for having us.
- [67:05]
D
What a pleasure it is to say welcome. Brian Wilson.
- [67:09]
G
Hi, Pete, how are you? And how is everybody out there listening?
- [67:12]
D
Terrific. Just terrific. You played this year, your first dates with the band in almost a decade, right. Earlier in the summer for the TV special. Did it bring bring back all the old flood of memories of what it's like to stand up there in front of thousands of people?
- [67:28]
G
Oh, yeah, of course. It was just like old times. Only thing is that the songs I like a little better now, and I like myself better because I've lost a lot of weight, too, which is.
- [67:38]
D
That's right. The last time you were here in 73, when I asked you if you had intended to play, you said it all depended on whether you can drop some pounds, etc. And may I say to the listening audience, who is of course, without a visual presence to judge by that, you look terrific.
- [67:53]
G
Thank you.
- [67:54]
D
Appreciate that.
- [67:55]
G
Well, it just so happens that in the spring of this year I got inspired and we did 15 big ones. Well, just about a month ago, we recorded two albums. Are you ready for that? Wait a minute, two new albums? We're two ahead of schedule now. It's out of sight.
- [68:08]
D
After four years, no new material from the boys, you're telling me that in the period since the spring, you've got literally not only 15 out, but two more coming?
- [68:17]
G
That's right. I think that our next batch of material is going to be as good as ever. I can't see. I couldn't see doing any, any better for this period of time right now.
- [68:26]
D
Do you have good memories of your own childhood at this point, Brian?
- [68:30]
G
Some, some good memories. Of course. I, I have a lot of good memories. Most of them are on my own, not with my parents. I think having brothers meant the difference as far as loneliness goes. I think brothers meant the difference as far as really being a lonely person. So I think I have good memories with my brothers. Yeah, and I would say that I had some bad memories, but, you know, I'd rather think of the good ones.
- [68:50]
D
Your career, of course, is one of the most incredible. I can't think of anyone else with the longevity of the Beach Boys or the, the musical history that you've given to the world. I don't mean this to embarrass, embarrass you. I just want to confirm with every ounce of, of strength and feeling in me that, Brian Wilson, you are loved by many, many people.
- [69:15]
G
Thank you.
- [69:16]
D
And will continue to be over the years. I see your best years still ahead.
- [69:20]
G
Thank you. I, I do too. I, I really do.
- [69:23]
D
Are you happy?
- [69:25]
G
Yeah. This is the first year I lost 50 pounds. Can you believe that?
- [69:29]
F
50 pounds.
- [69:31]
G
One year. No, I went, I went down to 200. From 250 and I'm gonna go to about 190, 185. And I, I don't, I don't need as much food. You know, they say, get away from those fries. You know, I say, I want those fries, I want them. Nope, you cannot. If you want to lose weight, you knock, throw carbohydrates away and go on a low carbohydrate diet, which I did, which is cool. I'm happy now. I look better, I feel better. Hey, that's the way to go. You know, you do this for yourself, you're not doing it for anybody else.