The WILSON PHILLIPS Episode

Summary

Jokermen Podcast – The WILSON PHILLIPS Episode

December 8, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode of the Jokermen Podcast explores the rise, context, and music of Wilson Phillips—the pop trio consisting of Carnie and Wendy Wilson (daughters of Brian Wilson of the Beach Boys) and Chynna Phillips (daughter of John and Michelle Phillips of the Mamas and the Papas). Hosts Evan and Ian examine the familial lineage, 90s nostalgia, critical reception, and musical texture of Wilson Phillips’ debut album (1990), their follow-up Shadows & Light (1992), and the lesser-known Wilsons project (1997). The tone is irreverent yet affectionate, as the hosts honestly and humorously reckon with the group’s place in the Beach Boys family legacy and pop history.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The “Nepo Baby” Pop Dynasty

• Hosts open by riffing on the group's obvious nepotism—and how that’s both a badge and a stigma.
  • “They are, unfortunately, nepo babies. So... we'll get a plus one in the Good Guys column for women, but we'll probably get a demerit, a minus one in the Bad Guys column for nepo babies.” (Ian, 00:22)
• The context and prominence of family ties—Brian Wilson as progenitor, the Mamas & the Papas connection, and echoes of earlier Brian-produced “girl group” projects (the Honeys, American Spring).

2. Wilson Phillips’ Place in the 90s Zeitgeist

• The duo muse on the pop culture impact of the group, referencing shows like VH1’s I Love the 90s, which memorialize the era’s fads and hitmakers.
  • “Hold On” was a huge, just enormous, like a phenomenon. That's why it warranted being discussed on I love the 90s in the first place… it was huge.” (Ian, 19:09)
• They contrast the group’s relatively wholesome, skillful, ‘crafted’ pop with later, more manufactured or “algorithmic” music.

3. Critique & Cultural Reception (Fatphobia and Sexism in the Media)

• Evan and Ian discuss how Wilson Phillips, particularly Carnie Wilson, have been the brunt of cruel, fatphobic humor from commentators (as seen in I Love the 90s), critically unpacking retrograde attitudes from the era.
  • “There were some not so kind, some very disrespectful statements about Carnie Wilson Lodge in that episode... mean humor or just unfunny humor. It went somewhere between, like, this is mean and this is just shitty joke telling.” (Ian, 04:59)
  • “I think you can just comment on it being funny to wear an all black suit on the beach without referring to someone's weight. How about that?” (Ian, 32:24)

4. The Family Band Dynamic in Rock/Pop

• The emotional affinity and “trauma-bonded” aspect of Beach Boys/Wilson family, and how that plays out in Wilson Phillips.
  • “It really did feel ... like a family reunion type thing. It felt like... this core group of family members and friends, you know, close people who really love each other, like putting on a show for themselves.” (Ian, 11:31)
• Wilson Phillips as a natural outgrowth of the “family band DNA” that defined the Beach Boys, for better or worse.

5. Musical Aesthetics, Craft & the Pop Landscape

• Evan and Ian analyze the musical craft of Wilson Phillips, noting the “Nashville cat” caliber of session musicianship, well-crafted pop structure, and a signature lack of “edge”—both its appeal and limitation:
  • “It’s craft, you know.” (Evan, 36:40)
  • “If you like the first song, you’ll like the second song and you’ll like all the rest of the songs.” (Ian, 35:28)
• The debut album’s cover/art direction is praised for not sexualizing the band; instead, it echoes Beach Boys’ unslick, down-to-earth aesthetic.
  • “Typically you think of... young women pop stars. Let’s sex them up. Here, like, that's definitely not what's going on.” (Ian, 23:07)

6. Highlights & Standout Songs

Wilson Phillips (1990)

• “Hold On” — the mega-hit; both hosts acknowledge its ubiquity and (somewhat “unobjectionable”) appeal.
  • “Hold On. What a great song.” (Ian, 27:14)
  • Evan finds most of the record less immediately appealing, but can imagine it as pleasant background music.
• Critical Data: 5 hit singles, 10 million albums sold.
• “Next to You” — Evan’s favorite (“It’s kind of like Enya or something.” – Evan, 29:14).
• “Reason to Believe” (cover) — Karen Dalton connection.

Shadows & Light (1992)

• Less memorable to the hosts; music is more rock-inflected, but blends together as background listening.
• “Flesh and Blood” — deeply emotional, written by Carnie and Wendy about their estranged relationship with Brian.
  • Notable quote:

    “How can we be like enemies when we're only flesh and blood? What does it take to make your heart bleed? Daddy, aren't we enough?”
    (Ian quoting lyrics, 50:02)

  • This song is credited with helping to reopen lines of communication between Brian and his daughters.

The Wilsons (1997)

• Under-the-radar cult item with under 20,000 Spotify plays, described as “Buffy the Vampire Slayer”–coded in its cover design.
• Stylistically leans more alternative/rock, drawing comparisons to Alanis Morissette and Liz Phair (with Greg Ballard, the “Jagged Little Pill” producer, contributing).
  • "It's more of a rock record... closer to Alanis Morissette or Liz Phair than Wilson Phillips." (Ian, 53:07)
• Brian Wilson features minimally, mostly on opening track “Monday Without You”—originally conceived as a father-daughters collaboration.
• “I Hate Your Face” — self-penned by Carnie and Wendy, notable for its unfiltered, almost adolescent lyrics (Evan suggests a pro lyricist would have edited).
• “Everything I Need” — a Brian song from his “Slightly American Music” collection closes the album.
  • “If you listen to it, it sounds like a Brian song; does not really sound like the rest of the music on The Wilsons.” (Ian, 65:33)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On pop music’s craftsmanship vs. modern pop product:
  • “There’s something to sort of—there’s something real there. Like it’s made of natural fibers. It’s not entirely polyester.” (Ian, 45:06)
• On 1990s pop and nostalgia:
  • “It was a simpler time.” (Evan, 46:47)
• On the burden of legacy:
  • “Them not against the world, but just sort of apart from [it].” (Ian, 13:37)
• On the group’s audience:
  • “It’s music made for people that aren’t us...for specifically young women in the early 1990s; its a particular moment in time...” (Ian, 43:06)
• On the unsung value of The Wilsons album:
  • “I'll be the first to pat myself on the back by saying, I thought this was an underrated one of the three, in some ways.” (Evan, 54:55)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:22 — Nepo babies and 'Good Guys/Bad Guys' ledger
• 04:53 — Critique of VH1's fatphobic humor about Carnie Wilson
• 10:08 — Segue to roots of family band culture and pop history
• 13:37 — Host reflection: warmth and “apartness” of the family unit
• 21:23 — Description and analysis of the iconic debut album cover
• 27:14 — “Hold On” discussion and album’s commercial context
• 32:24 — Commentary on costumes/fashion vs. fat-shaming in media
• 34:28 — Uniformity of debut album’s musical texture
• 39:15 — Mention of Wilson Phillips’ covers album “Dedicated” (2012)
• 50:02 — “Flesh and Blood” lyrics and emotional backstory
• 53:07 — The Wilsons album as proto-alternative rock for late '90s
• 54:55 — Host praise for The Wilsons as an underrated album
• 65:33 — “Everything I Need” as a Brian Wilson-penned closing track

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Conclusions / Takeaways

• Wilson Phillips stands as a fascinating artifact—a synthesis of pop professionalism, privilege, and legacy—distinct for its familial ties and sometimes unappreciated musical craft.
• The band’s biggest strength is in delivering clean, skillful, inoffensive pop, expertly executed but unlikely to inspire cultish devotion.
• The Wilsons 1997 album, obscure and stylistically divergent, may warrant exploration by fans of 90s alternative pop and those interested in late-period Brian Wilson involvements.
• The hosts’ engagement is honest: appreciative of craft and cultural context, yet acknowledging distance from the target audience and finding more “edge” in adjacent projects.
• Wilson Phillips’ story prompts reflection on how lineage, gender, and media reception shaped both the band’s fortunes and their critical memory.

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Episode Rating (Host consensus):
*Wilson Phillips and The Wilsons: 2 stars each—solid, professional, but not transcendent pop.
"Three people, two stars... that's plenty to go around." (Ian, 66:16)

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For future Jokermen episodes, expect more deep dives into the extended Wilson/Beach Boys universe, including their Christmas catalog and other offshoots.

Transcript

[Evan]

Welcome back to Jokerman's Wilson Phillips Program.

[Ian]

The Wilson Phillips Spectacular.

[Evan]

I'm Evan.

[Ian]

I'm Ian.

We're centering female voices.

[Evan]

That's right.

[Ian]

Three of them, to be exact.

[Evan]

Three female voices.

[Ian]

They are, unfortunately, nepo babies. So.

We'Ll get a check mark. We'll get a plus one in the Good Guys column for one women. But we'll probably get a demerit, a minus one in the Bad Guys column.

[Evan]

For Nepo babies or for Nepo babies. And then we'll get another demerit for maybe the things we say potentially about the music. But we're not. I don't know about that. I mean, you know, who's. Who knows?

[Ian]

Who's to say? You got to stay tuned to find out.

[Evan]

Maybe we'll get a Such a great. What's the opposite of a demerit? An award?

[Ian]

Merit.

[Evan]

We'll get a merit for actually being not only centering female voices, but also defending and appraising female voices. That could happen, too.

[Ian]

They could. Absolutely. We'll see.

[Evan]

We haven't talked about this, you know, you and I, so I don't know what you think about it. We haven't talked about it. I haven't thought about it.

[Ian]

I've spent a lot of time thinking about it recently. I've been listening to at least the first Wilson Phillips record for like. Like two or three months at this point. But because I guess just to establish ground rules here. So we're going to do the two. The first two Wilson Phillips records here. Wilson Phillips, self titled. And then Shadows in Light from 1992.

[Evan]

Shadows in the Light.

[Ian]

That's right. And we're also going to do the Wilsons, the album. The Wilsons. No Phillips, but plus an extra Wilson. Brian Wilson.

[Evan]

Guess which I was.

[Ian]

Yeah, Carl.

So those are. We're gonna do all of those. All three of those. The first Wilson Phillips record, of course, comes out in 1990. Shadows and Light, 1992. The Wilsons, 1990. Which is why this is kind of appearing semi awkwardly in the midst of our mid-90s run. But that's why I've been listening to at least the first one for a while, because I initially had it on the schedule as we're gonna do one episode per album for this shit. And then once I started listening, I figured out, you know, maybe this has got to be one of those ones like the celebration episode where we just smash them all into one, one good roundup and go on our way after that.

[Evan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, we were just talking about. I love the 90s. On Neverending Stories, we had a digression about it. And you sent me like the day after, the morning after we were just happened to be talking about I love the 80s, I love the 90s. A clip of I love the 90s. And at the very top, they're talking about Wilson Phillips.

[Ian]

That's right. Exactly. I sent you the clip tagged to the start time of Wilson Phillips. It's about like 33 minutes.

[Evan]

I thought it was just kismet. I thought it was just one of those times when the universe bends to our will.

[Ian]

It was one of those times. It wasn't quite that. That bent to our will, but it was. It was pretty close. Yeah, we. So for context here, and because, you know, whatever. We got time to kill on this episode, the most recent Neverending Stories, we did a Bob Dylan 1990 performance, October 19, 1990, at the Beacon Theater. And we went on a digression. Yes. Like you said, regarding I love the 90s. Because Steve was just spitting 1990 trivia at us the entire time. Use your illusions. Saturday Night Live references.

[Evan]

Mostly Saturday Night Live references. He thought that we didn't understand. I mean, granted, we didn't, but he was like, you know that Patrick Swayze is the other guy that was.

[Ian]

I'm glad you didn't know anything about Patrick Swayze being the other guy in the Chippendales kid either.

[Evan]

No. You know, who was the straight man in that?

[Ian]

Anyways, we went on a tangent about I love the 90s there. And at a certain point we started remembering people who were on I love the 90s. It really turned into a bit of a mess. Although I had a great time. And so when I edited that episode, I went to YouTube and I just plugged in I love the 90s, 1990. Because I wanted to just like drop a little clip of the 1990 episode into the episode, into the Neverending Stories episode. You know, just for fun. And wouldn't you know it, as soon as I. Lo and behold, as soon as I opened it up in the opening credits, actually, they did make like a cheeky little reference to Wilson Phillips. And so I hit the transcript button on the video. Cause it's the whole I love the 90s episode is there for free. You can watch it. But if you go to the transcript thing, you can just kind of search for a term. So I searched for Wilson Phillips. Sure enough, 33 minutes in to the episode, they start a little digression. Michael Buble talking about Wilson Phillips, along with Michael Ian Black, couple other Characters.

[Evan]

He was like the king. Michael Ian Black was the king of that.

[Ian]

He really was.

[Evan]

Isn't like Brian Posayn in there.

[Ian]

Yeah, well, he's the one that really. There's some not so kind, some very disrespectful statements about Carney Wilson Lodge in that episode.

[Evan]

Just short of, like, having like a.

They do, like, up until just being like this cow.

[Ian]

It was kind of like, I remember. I love the 80s, even. I love the 70s and I love the 90s pretty fondly. And like, I don't have. But like, watching this, like, it was pretty. I didn't. I didn't care for it, to be honest. Pretty. Just nasty. Pretty mean humor. It was either mean humor or just unfunny humor. It went somewhere between, like, this is mean and this is just shitty joke telling.

[Evan]

Yeah. Or just describing the thing like, oh, Edward Scissorhands. Yeah, that was that movie with Johnny Depp. Played a guy who had. He had garden shears for hands.

[Ian]

Yeah.

[Evan]

It's like, yeah.

[Ian]

Riveting. Riveting television. I hope that Jokerman podcast episodes age a little more gracefully than I love. The 90s has aged.

[Evan]

They don't. We already disagree with a huge percent of things we've said in the past. So specifically for us, I think that that's a moot point.

[Ian]

We did just hit our 500th episode. I realized. We.

[Evan]

We did.

[Ian]

Yeah.

[Evan]

What was it?

[Ian]

It was the American music episode, actually.

[Evan]

I think that my audio is kind of bad in that one.

[Ian]

It worked out okay. That was a lot of fun. I love talking about that. People seem to really dig it. Seemed like there were a lot of people who didn't know some of those songs. So I think we're. We're doing. You know, we're. This is. This is the point. This is why we trudge through fucking endless Mike Love and Carl Wilson and Wilson Phillips episodes and stuff is to be able to do, you know, the Brian Wilson, Andy Paley, just beautiful, perfect music from the 1990s type of stuff. Bring that to the masses and back to trudging. Right.

[Evan]

Here we are.

[Ian]

No, I'm being cruel. I'm being like, now you are. I'm being the Michael Ian Black of this podcast.

[Evan]

If it was Brian Posen who said that, it's like, you know, there's something.

[Ian]

Pot calling the kettle type situation there.

[Evan]

Well, I think it's one of those times where it's like, all right, you're. You have like, the hood pass for just being like, this person's fat.

[Ian]

Right.

[Evan]

If you're also fat, but I don't know if it works that way anymore. Certainly that was maybe the 90s. It was.

[Ian]

Well, that was the two. I think those shows were like.

[Evan]

I mean, the two.

[Ian]

Yeah, I think they were from like, what, 2006 or something like that. That's when I believe I was watching VH1. Maybe even earlier than that. 2004.

[Evan]

I love the 90s. Was not from the 90s. Yeah. I love everything that's going on right now. Yeah, I. I like that idea for a show. How about love the 2000 and 20s? And you're just like, everything that's happening right now is great.

[Ian]

Yeah, absolutely. Covid.

[Evan]

And I remember it too.

[Ian]

Well. Wilson Phillips. I realized also in our opening preamble, I guess we did POD the other day about Bob and stuff. But we haven't done a Beach Boys series since Grace. And I saw Al Jardine and the Pet Sounds Band down there in Cerritos, California.

[Evan]

And what's it like down there in Cerritos?

[Ian]

Pretty weird, to be honest. It's like I didn't realize quite how far away from Los Angeles it really was. It's Orange County. So we, you know, raced down from San Francisco all throughout the day and then pulled in to my sister's place, dropped off the dog, hung out for a few minutes, and then just got right back onto the freeway. We had to grab dinner at a Panda Express in Downey on the way.

[Evan]

Hey, that's a great Panda Express, you know.

[Ian]

Have you been to the Panda Express in Downey?

[Evan]

I don't think I've been there. But I do know that it's like one of the ones where, like, that's like, kind of an important one. Because a lot of the fast food places, they put a lot of effort, extra care into their restaurant in Downey. Interesting, because Downey is the home of the very first McDonald's.

[Ian]

McDonald's.

[Evan]

That's right. Yeah.

[Ian]

We were driving down this strip. I forget what the street is there in Downey, but it. It was the strip of all the fast food restaurants. And basically, like, every single one you could imagine was lined up there just one after the other after the other. You know, The. The. The McDonald's, the Burger King, the Jack in the box, the Carl's Jr. The Wendy's, the In N Out, the Chick Fil a, the Raisin Cane's, the Chipotle, the Panda Express, the Taco Bell, the Del Taco. Like, every single. Just one after the other after the other. It was kind of kind of A sight to behold, to be honest.

[Evan]

Yeah, I think it's kind of a great place and if. If that's what you're into also because of it. I definitely mentioned this every time Downey comes up, but there's kind of a fascinating phenomena there of a lot of mom and pop burger places. Like the type places that have, like, tacos, pastrami and burgers and, you know, kind of like charming old signs that.

[Ian]

Say pastrami, tacos, burgers.

[Evan]

Right. And, you know, they have maybe cute names for the place. A lot of like, gyros, too, on the menu.

[Ian]

It felt honestly, a little bit like. Remember when you and I and Jake were all down in Hawthorne and we went to the Foster's Freeze and that great. What was that diner called? Pans. Right.

[Evan]

No, not Pans. Pans is like a famous.

[Ian]

Oh, it's Pans Pan's Dine. Is that the one that's buying?

[Evan]

That's like the Gooey Building.

[Ian]

The one we went to was a Googie one, sort of.

[Evan]

Yeah. I forget.

[Ian]

It felt like that. It felt, you know, very, you know, kind of 1950s suburban street, you know, where you're cruising with the. With the boys on a Friday night. Anyways, I bring all this up to say, the Al Jardine of the Pet Sounds Band. Fabulous performance. Incredible. One of the best shows I've been to all year. Al is incredible up there. Darian's incredible. The band sounds fantastic. There's some great guest spots from Weird Al and Eric Idle. I forgot to mention on the pod.

[Evan]

Wait, Eric Idle was there? Yeah.

[Ian]

You didn't see the videos that I was posting? No, it was Weird Al and Eric Idle and I think a guy from America, the band America. I don't know who he is. Really incredible thing. I forgot to mention on the episode I taped with Grace, but I saw Greg Turkington two or three rows in front of me. I meant to say hi, but failed to.

[Evan]

All the way from Victorville.

[Ian]

That's right.

The reason I bring this all up is because it really did feel, and I said this in the episode previously, like a family reunion type thing. It felt like it. Like an insular. Like. Like it was just this core group of family members and friends, you know, close people who really love each other, like putting on a show for themselves. And it just so happened to be taking place in this beautiful auditorium in a very weird place in Cerritos, but, you know, full of several thousand other individuals. But the call outs, like, to Marilyn and Carney and Wendy, all of whom were in Attendance at the show. And, you know, you could tell there were other friends and family members about. Like, it. It did feel like everyone who was part of this little universe was in that one room at that one moment in time. And after seeing that and being there in that kind of environment, I kind of. I don't want to say, like, I underst. Like, I totally get. And I agree with Brian's, you know, sort of will he won't he relationship with the Beach Boys, where, like, he doesn't want to go solo. Cause he really feels committed to the family band and the brothers and the cousins and, you know, so on cousins, friends and brothers.

But, like, I kind of understand it a little bit better, I feel like, because it, Like, I don't know, like the. The group is really, like, this is all downstream from Brian Wilson, you know, and his brilliance as a musician, as a performer, as a songwriter, as a melodicist. And the fact that all of these people were kind of raised to the heights of popular culture for, you know, a relatively brief period of time. But for a period of time in the 20th century, you know, everyone just kind of riding on Brian's coattails. It. It did feel like everyone sort of bonded and like. Like not trauma bonded, because it isn't trauma, but like a good version of that or something. Like, you know, only they know what it's like to have gone through all this together and come out it, you know, emerge on the other side as a. As a family unit, as friends, as, you know, a collection of individuals. Them not against the world, but just sort of apart from.

Was. It was really warm and inspiring and insightful type of experience beyond just being a great concert. And so all of that is to say Wilson Phillips, which is literally like a product of family arrangements in the music business. Like, I kind of get like, this makes sense understanding that if. If you kind of know what I mean.

[Evan]

Yes. I mean, it sounds. It sounds like the inevitable resurfacing of the origin, the seed of the Beach Boys. I mean, we've talked about, like, how they, for all their faults, resist being commercialized. Like, so much of what's challenged to the Beach Boys is that there's something that stops them from fully embracing, even if they try the kind of glossy and.

Showbiz slick iteration that would be, you know, the. The ideal for the people in the biz. Like, they. They have a kind of innate family band DNA.

[Ian]

Absolutely. And that's. That sort of explains why. It explains so much, I think, about, like, why the band, obviously, why Brian has This sort of struggle that he, that he ends. Why, like the Van Dyke Parks type of element or the Tony Asher element, or the Gary Usher element. These outsiders who are friends with him and artists and collaborators, but not part of the family. You know, why that turns into a struggle. Sort of explains, I think, a lot of like David Leaf's relationship with Brian, where he begins as like a biographer, you know, chronicler of the band from the outside, and then over time turns into Brian's like manager and consigliere and like is producing Brian. Like he's a big part of the smile thing. It's really.

It's a different type of thing, I think, than pretty much any of the other bands or artists that we've talked about. You know, Bob, for instance, is just Bob. He took pains to remove any trace of family that he possibly could, at least when it came to his origin story, and keeps the world far apart from him. You don't really know much about what's been going on in his personal life over the last however many decades. Lou obviously, you know, had his sort of relationships, but never had a kid. John. Pretty private individual, I think he only has one daughter, I want to say. But you know, the Beach Boys are really this. And it makes sense because they are these like kind of corn fed, white bread suburban Southern California. Just like, you know, basic fucking people, people, ordinary fucking people.

And that's charming to me, I guess. You know, at this point, especially in these days when everyone in the music industry, you know, current contemporary artists are so like slick and professionalized and image managed and conscious of things and like mercenary and algorithm, you know, motivated and stuff like that is. None of those words apply to anything that came out of Beach Boys camp. For all their other many faults. You can't say that about them.

[Evan]

Yeah, I mean, even underground independent artists are not the same thing as like this, this family unit structure. The cousins, friends and brothers, cousins, friends and daughters. In this case. That's right on the Wilson Phillips.

[Ian]

The Wilson Phillips? Yeah, the whole, the whole, you know, kit and caboodle. There are other records, you know, from Wilson Phillips that are like covers records. And there's like a Christmas record and there's some one off singles and stuff like that, you know. I think we're touching on the stuff that deserves to be touched on here.

[Evan]

Well, speaking of that, who's in the group?

[Ian]

Well, it's Carney and Wendy Wilson, Daughters of Brian Wilson. Those are the Wilsons in Wilson Phillips. And then Chyna Phillips, the daughter of everyone's favorite John Phillips and Michelle Phillips, longtime listeners might remember, or not even longtime listeners. People who listened to the still Cruzan episode may remember our discussion of John Phillips relationship with his other daughter Mackenzie Phillips in that episode related to the song relationship asterisk. Yes. You know.

As far as we know and as far as she's ever said, China Phillips, sister of Mackenzie Phillips, did not have that. That wasn't happening there. She was not being, you know, groomed and raped by her father the way that her sister was. But she does come from the same patrilineal tree, you know, from the Mamas and the Papas. So. Gee, less.

[Evan]

Yeah, we can just talk about the Mamas and the Papas more broadly and that the. The provenance of this group is part of its appeal, I think, in a major way. Like Wilson Phillips, like, this was a. This was a very successful act at the time. And I think that the connection was a big part of that to the Mamas and the Papas and Brian Wilson, like in the popular music consuming imagination. This was exciting.

[Ian]

Yeah. This was certainly the first Wilson Phillips record. And specifically the first song, which we'll get to momentarily, like, was a huge. Just enormous, like a phenomenon. That's why it warranted being discussed on I love the 90s in the first place, along alongside, you know, Pretty Woman and Edward Scissorhands and, you know, whatever. It was huge. And. Yeah. And you know, a large part of the reason I think this group got signed, you know, became a group in the first place is because of the, you know, is the provenance. Brian and you know, the Mamas and the Papas and stuff here too. Of course, this sort of is an echo of things that happened earlier in Brian's career. Like we saw with Marilyn, the mother of Carney and Wendy Wilson, first with the Honeys, who were, you know, sort of the girl group that Brian tried to produce and give a leg up early. Early on they only put out a couple songs and it didn't end up really going anywhere. And then on the American Spring record, your favorite record, Evan, the one that you listen to all the songs on.

And you know, family attempts to get, you know, his wife started in the music business with a successful recording career. Now we're doing basically the same thing with, you know, he and his wife's daughter. Daughters, I should say. So it's all, you know, it's all. It's all lining up here and. But in 1990, it ends up coming off in a very different type of way than either the Honeys or certainly The American Spring record did. American Spring, of course, remember, was like, sort of weird and cool and interesting and like a little like homespun, almost like a side, you know, like a project that Brian and Marilyn did in their garage type of thing. This is like big pop, a lot of money behind it, a lot of investment, a lot of industry expectations on this stuff. And so it's, it's, it's a different type of feeling, I think, than anything that Brian had done previously. Again with, with Marilyn. What do you. I wonder, what do you think of the. Just sort of the imagery of Wilson Phillip? I find the COVID of this first album in particular very striking, but I can't exactly explain why.

[Evan]

Well, we could describe it. It's the three of them on a beach.

And Carnie's wearing a suit.

[Ian]

She sort of looks like Jack Nicholson in Batman.

[Evan]

She looks like Jack Nicholson in the Two Jakes. Is what.

[Ian]

Gee, here we're being Brian Posen right now we gotta stop.

[Evan]

The two others are below her, perched on a rock facing the opposite direction with their legs, you know, they have legs and. Well, yeah, I guess you mentioned the joker, Jack Nicholson, because. Yeah, Carnie's wearing a wide brim, wide brimmed hat.

[Ian]

And like. Is that like a duster that she's wearing? It looks like.

[Evan]

Yeah, actually, yeah, it's not a suit. It's like. It's a full length. It's like a probably suede or.

[Ian]

Yeah, it's a double breasted long coat of some sort. Duster or trench or something. And looks like all denim beneath her. Wendy is kind of. She's got like cowgirl boots on and then like a dress, semi sheer dress. And then China Phillips has got this sort of like sort of androgynous type of thing going on.

[Evan]

She's got short hair, she's got the.

[Ian]

Boy, you know, boyish haircut.

[Evan]

Haircut kind of.

[Ian]

Yeah, exactly. And then, you know, it looks like denim on denim and like a suede vest type of thing. It's just a very interesting sort of image that's being put across here. You know, I kind of dig it and I appreciate it because typically you think of certainly at this point in time, like, oh, it's a group of women, young women, pop stars. Let's sex them up and kind of, you know, make that one of the defining traits. And here like, that's. That's definitely not.

[Evan]

That's not what's happening, what's going on.

[Ian]

Exactly.

[Evan]

No, but it's, it's kind of like Echoes of the Beach Boys. Because, you know, they never could really do that with the Beach Boys. Like, put.

[Ian]

Put Mike up there with his leg sort of splayed out.

[Evan]

There's Al drifting in, and you've got Carl, Bruce, and you've got Brian. I mean, they're just. They. Whatever they are, they're not sex, you know, you obviously, with the exception of. Of Denny.

[Ian]

That's right.

[Evan]

But that's. That's not what we're going for here. We're going for.

Prestige. I think that they're just. They're trying to sort of present as a serious songwriting outfit. Like a lot of the aesthetic cues I would compare maybe to something like Suzanne Vega.

[Ian]

Yeah, I could.

[Evan]

I can see, you know, like, she's like a. She's not there to be sexy. She's sophisticated.

[Ian]

Yeah, I think it's. It's. It's cool. I think they, like, kind of have a concept and they are going for it and they, you know, are mostly succeeding, at least on this first. On this first record.

[Evan]

I don't know what the concept is, really. It's just. It's like they're working with what they've got.

[Ian]

You know, there's a slight, like, country western type thing to it, but it's also sort of like young and forward looking. It's very early 90s, you know. Obviously comes out in 1990. That's again, maybe why I appreciate this. This is just sort of a sweet spot for me.

[Evan]

You like Suzanne Vega?

[Ian]

She's okay. I don't have anything against her. I can't say that I'm like, like super dialed into Suzanne Vega music.

[Evan]

I bet you would like Suzanne Vega's music if you listen to it.

[Ian]

I like that early stuff, you know. What is it? Tom's Diner?

[Evan]

Yeah, that one's good. I mean, she's got the. That 1 from 92.99.9 Fahrenheit degrees or whatever it's. It's called.

[Ian]

Well, she was born in Santa Monica too. Look at that. This is all, you know, west.

[Evan]

I saw her on the street. Los Angeles. In New York, though.

[Ian]

Yeah.

[Evan]

Well, walking on the street.

[Ian]

Anyways, that's Wilson Phillips cover.

Musically, I mean. Hold on. Side one, track one. I think when I texted you this stuff, you were, you know, you were like, I don't know any of this shit. And then I said, you'll know the first one. Did you.

[Evan]

You knew.

[Ian]

You knew this one, right?

[Evan]

Not. Not like. Not really.

[Ian]

You never heard hold on it, if.

[Evan]

I Had, which is pro, you know, I'm certain I Have it was probably like at a low volume while getting a haircut.

[Ian]

It's like playing over the. The PA system in like a Ross when you go in.

[Evan]

Yeah, T.J. maxx.

[Ian]

T.J. maxx, exactly. And you're thinking like, maybe there will be one thing worth buying in this TJ Maxx. For the first time ever, it's not chock full of shit. And then you go in and spend five minutes and inevitably 100% of the items in the store are shit. And you just walk out. Hold on is the song that's playing.

[Evan]

TJ Maxx feels like looking through the cupboards of someone who recently died.

[Ian]

It's pretty crazy in there. I popped in a couple times recently because there's one bios and Grace sometimes wants to go in after we go to like Sephora and it's just always. Anyways, whatever.

[Evan]

They always have food. They have like the weird. They have a food section, but it's just like, you know, like wasabi peas and like chocolate filled pretzels or something.

[Ian]

It's all the leftovers from Cost Plus. You know, like the Cost plus food section is like good and there's like a lot of good stuff. But like eventually some of that stuff goes bad and they just. That's like the rejects. They just truck those over to the TJ Maxx.

[Evan]

Yeah, it's doesn't quite go bad, but it's. It's like dry goods. Like some kind of mix of like this. If you put. Put hot water in this, it turns into chicken soup. But it's like clearly been there for. It's like half hard. Anyway. Anyway.

[Ian]

Hold On. What a great song.

[Evan]

Yeah, it's okay.

[Ian]

I love this song.

[Evan]

It's not bad. But I have to be honest, I didn't. I don't find a lot on this record to be immediately appealing to me. I could kind of get into just having it on though. Like I drove around listening to it. I just did things around the house listening to it. I walked around with more like I should rephrase while it was playing.

And you know, I just. I just let that happen.

[Ian]

Yeah, it. I mean, hold On. I think this record lives and dies on the strength of hold on, you know, the song, which it should be noted, you know, we were talking about this being sort of a big deal. Like hold on was fucking huge. It like, I think it peaked at number two on the charts.

Of all of them that high for this brand new band that came out of nowhere with no demos or EPs or anything before. It was like this was it. And they were the top of the pop charts immediately. Basically. It sold 10. The record, I think, sold. What did it say? 10 million charts. 5 hit singles. It's a 10 song album. Half the. Half the album were singles.

[Evan]

10 million charts.

[Ian]

Sorry, excuse me. 10 million copies.

And 5 hit singles. So fully half the album.

[Evan]

What were the hits?

[Ian]

They were. Well, it was. Hold on obviously. And then it was Release Me, which is just the very next song.

[Evan]

The next one.

[Ian]

Then it was Impulsive, which is the next one. Then it was yous're In Love, which is the fifth. So they skipped Next to youo. And then it was. What was the last one? The Dream Is Still Alive down there.

[Evan]

They Skip Next. Next to youo is my favorite one.

[Ian]

Probably.

You wouldn't have been the right man making the business decisions in the Wilson Phillips boardroom back then.

[Evan]

It's kind of like Enya or something.

[Ian]

Yeah, I see that.

[Evan]

Well, it also does that thing where they go O, E, O, which sounds like the thing in the. In the wizard of Oz when they're like at the witch's castle.

[Ian]

Did you watch the music video that they were so rudely commenting on? On I love the 90s?

[Evan]

No, it's pretty.

[Ian]

It is like, honestly kind of funny because they're all like. They're either on the top of a mountain. It appears to be like the Angeles Forest, like Granite Mountain. And there's a helicopter flying over them and they're singing. Or they're on the beach in Venice and Carnie is wearing a suit. Laying in the sand on Venice of Venice beach, which is admittedly kind of a funny thing to be wearing.

[Evan]

Oh, wow. Yeah, they're in the mountains.

[Ian]

They're in the mountains and then they're on the beach.

[Evan]

They are on the beach.

[Ian]

What's interesting to me is that in that video, it makes it clear. And I guess maybe this is clear to anyone who grew up with this or was more familiar with it, but China Phillips is clearly positioned as like the. The leader of the group. Like, Wendy and Carney are kind of like secondary figures in this band at this point in time. I kind of thought they were all, you know, equivalent. But she is the lead vocalist on hold on and she's clearly kind of the face of that music video. So it's.

[Evan]

Yeah, they. They give her more time, a little more screen. I mean, she's, she's. She's kind of the, the.

What did they say in the I love the 90s thing? Doesn't someone have some kind of a lewd comment.

[Ian]

Michael Buble is like, yeah, I wanted to her or something like that.

[Evan]

He's like, I thought it was, I thought she was cute. Like in the, in the want to sleep with you type of cute.

[Ian]

Yeah.

[Evan]

Or does he say it? Not in that way. I, I don't, I don't, I don't want to misconstrue.

[Ian]

Why don't we just quote it direct? Let me just drop that clip right in here. Vidpic. I know that there's pain but just.

[Evan]

Hold on for one more day Break.

[Ian]

Free Break from the chains Break free from the chains Break free Wilson Phillips. I love those gals. You know, I'm obviously not the only one because they do really well. We're talking about top songs of the decade.

[Evan]

Wilson Phillips.

[Ian]

Hold On.

[Evan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ian]

It was my anthem.

I remember, remember thinking the blonde girl.

[Evan]

With the boy haircut was kind of cute.

[Ian]

More of a I'd like to sleep with you cute. It's like Charlie's Angels meets nutrisystem. It was like three girls, right? There was the blonde and then there was the brunette and then there was Carney. No.

I'm not telling any fat jokes.

[Evan]

I felt sorry for the poor fat lady in the pants that was out on the beach. Fat ladies normally don't like to go to the beach.

[Ian]

Nothing wrong with putting on a suit laying out in the sun.

[Evan]

Okay.

[Ian]

I do it all the time. Okay. Don't be bashful, you Atkins people. Join the club.

I love 90. I think you can just comment on it being funny to wear an all black suit on the beach without referring to someone's weight. How about that?

[Evan]

Yeah, she is.

[Ian]

Because it is funny to be wearing an all black suit laying on the.

[Evan]

Well, when the others are not. They're wearing exactly strap sleeveless dresses. And yeah, it gives a little bit of the effect of, you know, if you're cruel, you could, you could go like, haha. Like it's a fat kid wearing a big T shirt in the pool at a pool party.

Why don't you put them all in suits? Come on, just like have them do it. Like. Oh, we're just kind of like it's.

[Ian]

Yeah, that would be cool.

[Evan]

But you know, she is the one wearing a duster on the COVID So maybe that's just her style.

[Ian]

Yeah, you know, sort of an androgynous sort of thing.

They were at the show, they stood up, they both looked great. Carney and Wendy, I'd love to see them. They were sitting there right next to Marilyn. Everyone stood up and you know, took a bow. Everyone applauded for him in the audience. It was really incredible. So I saw someone actually carrying around a Wilson Phillips vinyl LP with autographs from Carney and Wendy. So they'd clearly sought them out and got it autographed at the Al Jardine show.

[Evan]

Yeah, that. That would be a crazy coincidence.

[Ian]

I mean, I. Look, I don't. I don't know who's showing up to that with a Wilson Phillips vinyl lp. I don't even know there was a Wilson Phillips vinyl lp. This is the most CD ass album.

[Evan]

It is very cd. That sounds like a record store. Do you think?

[Ian]

Anyways, yeah. So the rest of this record. Like it. I. I remember we. I think Grace and I listened to this for the first time, like driving up to Sonoma one day a couple months ago. And, you know, we both knew hold on. And you know, like the song Enjoy It. And then the rest of it is just like, you know, all right, I can see why that was the lead single. And I'm finally kind of getting to the point where I can identify these songs and kind of like, I know this one. Oh, and there's that one. And they sound a little bit different to me, but. But it's pretty.

Consistent, I would say, in terms of the type of sounds you're getting, the tempo of a lot of the songs, the type of lyrics that are being sung. There's not a whole lot of variety going on here.

[Evan]

Yeah. I think there's one cover, right. Reason to Believe. The Karen Dalton song.

[Ian]

Yes. Yeah.

[Evan]

That's a great song. Yeah.

[Ian]

Is that your favorite song? The one that isn't by Wilson Phillips?

[Evan]

No, no, I like the. I like. What's it called? Next to you.

[Ian]

You like Next to you? Yes.

[Evan]

But, yeah, it's. This is kind of like the best case scenario for this type of project, I guess that, like, you. You sound very polished right out the gate. And you do basically some songs people really love and then none people don't like. And you rake it in.

[Ian]

Yeah, it's an. It's an unobjectionable record. You know, there isn't anything here that sounds weird or unexpected or difficult or, you know, anything really. It's a pretty like, if you like the first song, you'll like the second song and you'll like all the rest of the songs.

[Evan]

That's what people did, actually.

[Ian]

Yeah. And I think there is something to be said for that, I guess. I mean, I kind of like the way that a lot of these songs sound like the musical Bed on a lot of these songs there's like an organ coming through here and there, kind of an Al Cooper type organ and guitars and drums. Like it sounds like a real band playing this music. Some chiming guitar that sounds a little bit like still cruising or something. It's definitely of the time, but I think it's well made. It's not just. It's not slop, it's not schlock. It's not necessarily the heights of artistry or anything. But I think there's been some consideration and some care put into this music that makes for me at least makes it a pleasant listening experience.

[Evan]

It's craft, you know.

[Ian]

Yeah. You know what it is? It's like people talk about Nashville players, the Nashville cats, to quote Steve.

The session guys who just kind of come in and they play their parts and they are fucking great. And then they just clock out and go home at the end of the day. That's, I think, what a lot of this music, where it comes from the type of people making a lot of this music. It's just like people who can play a solid 3 1/2 minute pop song and let whoever sing a couple verses on top of it.

[Evan]

Yep.

I don't have much to say about this beyond that, to be quite frank.

[Ian]

Yeah, I mean, it takes a little bit of. Takes a little bit of listening to really start to start to feel your way through. Like I said, I'm finally kind of getting there just at the point where we're talking about it and now I will maybe never listen to it again.

[Evan]

Yeah, I get to be. I mean, I don't have to be this honest, but I will that like this listening to this was something I was putting off. And then when I started listening to it, I would listen a little bit and then like stop and then listen a little bit more later and stop. And then eventually just kind of had it on and then technically listened to it.

[Ian]

I was doing a lot of listening to. Not this one necessarily, because I had, you know, kind of gotten my feet wet on this, but the second one and the third one on the drives up and down. And I thought it was okay. I thought it was totally, you know, enjoyable stuff. It's funny to me because, like, we've listened to a lot of shitty music, you know, and like, I don't have any problem listening to shitty music at this point and spending like a lot of time listening to shitty music. So it's interesting. Interesting to me that because this isn't shitty music, you know, it isn't like great music. Right. But it's just sort of like music. It just is what it is. It's interesting that that's. That's what you have a challenge sort of committing to versus like, you know, whatever. Keeping the Summer Alive or Miu album.

[Evan]

Have you heard their 2012 album of covers? Mostly a lot of Beach Boys covers.

[Ian]

Wilson Phillips. Yeah, I have not. No, that's one that I figured we could sort of let just sit there. We're being like pretty, you know, pretty into it, pretty detailed, but I don't think we need to be that detailed.

[Evan]

It's. Yeah, it's there if you want to listen to it.

[Ian]

I'm sure it is dedicated.

[Evan]

It's called yes.

[Ian]

Dedicated. Yeah. Oh yeah. California Dreaming. Wouldn't it be nice? Dedicated to the one I love. I can hear music. Do it again, do it again do it again, do it again it's automatic when I talk with old bed the conversation turns to girls with new weather Hair there was soft and long and.

[Evan]

The beach was the place to go.

[Ian]

Do it again and again and again all right, how about the second Wilson Phillips record, Shadows and Light?

[Evan]

Did.

[Ian]

Did this change your mind?

[Evan]

This is, I guess what I was especially referring to when I said that. I just kind of had it on and on a loop. Like it all the songs blended together and I couldn't tell you much more.

And it's not like I was like, yeah, I can't listen to this. It was just like. I don't know, I mean, I feel, I feel bad that, you know, we don't often talk on the show about female artists relative to the male artists.

[Ian]

I'm putting in the work. Don't, you know, I'm putting in the work here. I'm being an ally.

[Evan]

I. In general, I just don't listen to like that much pop, like capital P pop music, you know, it's just not what I'm drawn to. It's.

[Ian]

I mean it is different music and it's something that we certainly would not be covering were it not literally. Brian Wilson's daughters and John Phillips daughter. And even still we're only doing one sort of half assed episode about it. So there is no question that this is not in the typical Jokerman purview here. I do think it's an interesting counterpoint to like think about, you know, the other, you know, some of the other. One of the other female artists that we've covered. You know, maybe the female artists we covered the most on the show. Like Nico, right?

[Evan]

Yeah.

[Ian]

Slightly different well, exactly. I find this stuff almost an easier. Certainly an easier and more enjoyable listen than a lot of the Nico stuff. Well, yeah, even as I acknowledge like, you know, the Nico records are like certainly more artistic and significant, important, whatever. This is so much more.

Simple to just put on and listen to and bullshit about for a little while.

[Evan]

But it also lacks, I mean frankly, this music lacks a bit of edge.

[Ian]

But I think it's designed that way.

[Evan]

It is. And I guess I'm drawn to pop. I'm drawn back into pop music when there is something a little bit extreme involved. Like, I guess that's why I've, you know, I. I don't have any reason why I haven't listened to like the latest Charlie XCX stuff. Except for that. I don't know. I. I found the earlier stuff a little bit like, it's a little bit edgier and it's like.

Mix of influences.

[Ian]

No, don't tell that to John Davis Kale.

[Evan]

Well, exactly.

[Ian]

Current collaborator.

[Evan]

I need to like maybe take a moment and re. Approach. But we've talked about doing Madonna on the show as a subject down the line. I would like to do that. For example. Like, I think there's times when it's like it. It's inherently an interesting mix of.

Of ingredients. It's just it. Wilson Phillips is just not particularly spicy. There's not even great failure happening. So I have less to say about it.

[Ian]

Yeah, I mean it's music made for people that aren't us, you know, and so that that's. And I think that is perfectly fine. No, no, no, no. I mean, yeah, it's. But like, you know, for specifically young.

[Evan]

Women in the early 1990s, like it is not it. It's a particular moment in time that this is really speaking to. And I do see, I hear when I listen to them like they kind of, they did a lot of pop artists stand on their shoulders, I think.

[Ian]

Yeah, I mean I think that there is like a. You know, this is a great specimen. You know, the Wilson Phillips records are perfect specimen from this kind of era of pop music, this interesting era of pop music where.

I think you used the term like craft earlier. Like that was a little bit more. That was a little bit more what was going on. It's not this sort of like disposable, deliberately air headed bullshit, you know, male and female alike of the 1980s. And it's also not sort of like the personality driven like branding exercises of the late 90s. Well, certainly of today. But like, you know, by the time you get to about like Backstreet Boys, NSync, Britney Spears, 98 Degrees, Christina Aguilera, so on.

[Evan]

It's almost that like, yeah, we're in between.

[Ian]

And it's like there are acts like Wilson Phillips, you know, pop country acts like Shania Twain, certainly Faith Hill, you know, pop R and B acts like early Mariah Carey. Like, this is all music that I. Again, like, I'm with you. That it's not stuff that I'm going to necessarily, but like, you know, Grace, my wife, loves a lot of this shit. And so I end up hearing a lot of this stuff. And this is like, when it comes to pop music, like, this is definitely my window of pop music. This, you know, call it whatever 1990-1995 or something. Where it is.

There's something to sort of. There's something real there. Like it's made of natural fibers. It's not entirely polyester. It's not like, you know, strictly small batch, artisanal, handmade, you know, whatever. But it is something that, you know, has some sort of connection to the type of pop music as art, whatever, that I'm typically interested in, drawn towards. So I guess all of this is to say as far beyond what we typically, you know, are. Are interested in on this show as this might be. Like, we could do a lot worse than this.

[Evan]

Yeah, yeah. It's just not going to be like.

Such a. A thrill to talk. There's no scandalous moment here. There's. You know, whereas today, like, everything's kind of. You're today. There could be a little bit more of this maybe added to the mix. Like a little bit more of a. An emphasis on. Yeah, I like the natural fibers idea image, like using a little bit of a traditional song that craft and like session musicians. Like maybe we could. And I think maybe that is coming back. Like, I think we maybe reached peak. Like.

Like. Remember when every pop song sounded like that?

[Ian]

Yes.

[Evan]

And now I do think it's more common to hear stuff that sounds more like a band or like session guys playing.

I don't know, things ebbs and flows. But this was a moment of. Yeah, it was just kind of.

It was a simpler time.

[Ian]

It was.

[Evan]

What do you think of Sabrina Carpenter? Do you like. Do you like Espresso? Do you like. That's that me.

[Ian]

Espresso. It's catchy. Certainly. I do. I, you know, I appreciate how ribbled she can be. I think that's fun.

[Evan]

Ribbled.

[Ian]

Yeah.

[Evan]

Yeah.

[Ian]

Body sort of titillating. Exactly. Something for everyone. To enjoy. Yeah, you know, she. We watched. She had like, a Christmas special, Like a Sabrina Carpenter Christmas special that came out last year that was, like, kind of, like shockingly charming and funny. Kyle Mooney was on that.

[Evan]

Oh, really?

[Ian]

Yeah, along with a couple other characters, you know.

[Evan]

What do you like about. Do you like Addison Rae? I might be more. Slightly more Addison Rae.

[Ian]

I am not really cracked the books on that one.

[Evan]

Diet Pepsi.

[Ian]

Yeah, I've heard of that. I don't know that I've heard it. I have heard it, but I couldn't tell you how it goes.

[Evan]

Anyway, she seems fun.

[Ian]

The second Wilson Phillips record.

This record also sold a bunch. Was considered sort of a flop and a disaster. And it ends up being the last real record they put out.

China Phillips goes solo shortly after this. And that's kind of why the band sort of falls apart. Because I think she considers herself or someone in her camp considers, like, she's the name, she's the talent. Obviously, that didn't really pan out either. This record does have an interesting, slightly more kind of rock flavor to it. It's not rock music necessarily, but it is a little bit edgier, I think, than the first record. And if there is a song that's worth commenting on on this album. Did you. Did you pay any attention at all to Flesh and Blood?

[Evan]

Define any attention at all.

[Ian]

This is the song that. This is a song, you know, I guess the song that Carney and Wendy wrote about Brian.

At this moment in time, she. They are the only two credited as writers. You know, a lot of these other songs. Are all three of them credited as writers. Or Glenn Ballard, who is kind of the man behind the. Behind the scenes, the wizard behind the curtain with this program.

They appear as co writers on a lot of their songs. This is just Wendy and Carney. And if you listen to it and if you just kind of take a look at the lyrics and stuff, it's a pretty emotionally affecting, certainly, given what we know about Brian at this moment in time. This is 1992, the second record. Pretty bracing and real type of song. Remember there was that Diane Sawyer interview that we talked about with Eugene Landy, where she asks Brian, aren't you proud of your daughters? That was right after Wilson Phillips had blown up. After the first record, she asked him, aren't you proud of your daughters? Why don't you talk to them? And Brian is like, I am so proud of them. I don't know why I don't talk to them. I can't explain it to you. This Is like the other side of that. The other side of that equation at this moment in time.

How can we be like enemies when we're only flesh and blood? What does it take to make your heart bleed? Daddy, aren't Daddy, aren't we enough? You can get through there's nothing stopping you from getting to us no one can take away the fact that we're only flesh and blood for years I've been following your case it's the only time I see your face and we've learned to live without you who you don't know is who you're afraid of and we're afraid of you too but will we ever talk to you again? It's a pretty, you know, like, if you don't know a lot of the backstory behind this song, you know, it might sound, you know, trite or stereotypical or something, but, like, I feel. I feel sort of emotionally affected by this song. Coming from them being addressed towards Brian.

[Evan]

At this specific moment in time.

As is understandable. Yeah, it's very. That's. That's poignant.

[Ian]

I wouldn't say it's like, you know, musically the greatest song I've ever heard. But this, again, sort of speaks to, like, there's something going on here. It's not just pure, you know, aimless, you know, sort of, you know, pop for pop sake type of stuff. Like, there's actual songwriting going on. There's actual talent, and there's actual, you know, there's a reason for this stuff to exist, basically.

So good song.

[Evan]

Yeah.

[Ian]

Flesh and blood.

And then it does end up being a happy story at the end of the day, because I think this song actually is credited as being sort of like, part of what, like, finally forces Brian to, like, pick up his, you know, pick up a relationship with the two of them. Again, you know, we end up seeing the other side or, you know, sort of the outcome of this. A few years later on the I Just Wasn't Made for these Times documentary, when Wendy and Carly. Carly Carney are being interviewed and they are talking about they love their dad and, you know, it's great to see him and stuff, but it is still sort of a fraught relationship. A couple years after that, we get to the Wilsons when, you know, China Phillips has gone solo. Wendy and Carney still want to, you know, try to do something themselves. And so the idea is hatched. Let's do father and daughters now that they're back on, you know, kind of speaking terms and making music again together. And this is this Is the result.

Sort of a half measure from what I understand, the Wilsons album. I know you. You enjoyed the COVID which you likened to Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

[Evan]

Yeah, very like Buffy or like Angel. You know, like, it's got that. Like that kind of. I think the font might literally be like the Buffy font. I'm not sure. But yeah, I like this particular moment.

In graphic design and just the general vibe musically. I kind of. I found this a little bit more interesting to listen to.

[Ian]

Well, it's definitely more what we would typically be interested in.

[Evan]

It's a rock record more.

[Ian]

So it's rock. Exactly. It's more of a rock record. It sounds closer. There's like. Like it's closer to like a. Like an Alanis Morissette or like a Liz Phair type of thing than it is to Wilson Phillips. Sort of unexpected. And I don't know if it's entirely successful, but it is. It's something, you know, it's certainly different than what you might have expected coming from the first two Wilson Phillips records. And then Brian is sort of here, based on my understanding. I think David Leaf wrote about this a little bit in the biography. I don't have to quote directly, but the first song on this record is called Monday with Without you. And Brian is there in the background, you know, doing his do do do's. Like this song. This. This was the. This song itself was the reason this whole project existed. They brought it to him and they said, hey, let's do this collaboration with Wendy and Carney. And they recorded this song and it turned out pretty well. You know, it's catchy. And the idea had been let's really do a full collaborative record between everyone here. You know, Brian will be an equal partner along with Wendy and Carney. And then.

Again, according to David Leaf, he just sort of lost interest. And the rest of this record ends up being mostly just Wendy and Carny. And Brian is sort of here and there sometimes in the background, but it isn't necessarily what it was envisioned as. Going into it.

[Evan]

Yeah, this record has zero plays.

[Ian]

I'm looking at some of this to play. I didn't realize this because I was playing it on my phone earlier and you don't see the play counts on the phone?

[Evan]

None.

[Ian]

These songs have 1000 plays.

I love setting ever lower bars for how unpopular an album might be for us to talk about on this show. This is probably the least. Least listened to album we've ever discussed.

[Evan]

Well, I'll be the first to pat myself on the back by Saying, I thought this was. This is an underrated one of the three, in some ways.

Yeah.

[Ian]

You want to go any further?

[Evan]

Well, I had the phantom sensation of having heard the first song, having heard Monday without you, before Monday without you, but I don't know where the hell I would have if it's only been.

[Ian]

Played 18,000 times ever.

[Evan]

Yeah.

[Ian]

At least on Spotify.

[Evan]

So that seems unlikely, but maybe. I mean, it could have been that I was watching something on the TV or a movie where the reason why it could have maybe been in a film or television show is because it was cheap, but the plays seem to not support that.

[Ian]

No, that seems unlikely to me.

You I just want to be with you I can't think about anything else on Sunday and the touch of you I only want to be with you can't think about a long day without you in an empty room.

Waiting for me sir.

[Evan]

Try.

[Ian]

This is not the type of album that would be being talked about on the 1997 installment of I Love the 90s. The way that Wilson Phillips is spoken about on the 1990 installment.

[Evan]

I like the first song, I guess, you know.

[Ian]

Yeah. No, I think that that's a fun song and it's proof positive that, like, this concept could have worked and did work to some extent. The rest of it, again, is like, there's not a ton of Brian here. And, I mean, I think Winnie and Carney are, like, they're good singers and they have some good songs that have been written for them on this record and that they have written themselves. But, you know, I don't know.

[Evan]

On their own, they don't have, you know, three, they say, is a sort of magical number.

[Ian]

Magic number.

[Evan]

That's right. And that it has a strength to it. And they don't have three here. They've only got two, two and a half, 2.1 or something. I mean, the extent to which Brian is here is kind of. It's negligible whether or not it helps or hinders this record or if it's just totally neutral. I think it's not necessary for him to be here. It does. He doesn't shoot the narrative. I mean, just. I mean, narratively, like, in a. In a sort of broad sense. It doesn't really make sense for Brian Wilson to be singing with these kind of angsty songs of.

Young women.

[Ian]

It is a little weird to hear these, like, kind of, like, Jagged Little Pill reject type songs. And then Brian's just there in the background doing, like, do, do, do, do, do.

[Evan]

Yeah, it does feel a Little bit like, yeah, Proto Avril Lavign thing. And, and then you've got, well, this.

[Ian]

Greg Ballard guy that they worked with. He, I, I guess masterminded Jagged Little Pill with Lis Morissette. Like, you know, the two of them kind of put that record together so it, you know, makes sense why it sounds like this. I see you like the Till I die cover.

[Evan]

No, not really.

[Ian]

Yeah, it's sort of weird.

[Evan]

What do you think about it? What about the song I hate your face?

[Ian]

I like that.

[Evan]

I hate your face because I love your face.

[Ian]

Yeah, that's good.

[Evan]

That one's a bit like.

Damn you. They thought that they must have been like, wow.

[Ian]

Yeah, there, you know, they, they, you know, roasting. Roasting his ass.

[Evan]

I don't know that there was a lyricist helping them along with these. It may be that they were self written. That that song made me think that that was maybe the case. Because I don't think a professional lyricist would have done that.

[Ian]

I think. Well, let's see.

Songwriters Wendy and Connie Wilson.

[Evan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. See that. That's the kind of thing that does not pass the first level of screening.

What about the other record? Did they. Who wrote those songs on who wrote.

[Ian]

I mean, the.

[Evan]

The big hit.

[Ian]

It was typically the three of them, you know, the. The Wilsons and Jenna Phillips. And then Greg Ballard was the, you know, the fourth writer in. In some cases, he's cr. Hold on.

I was with you in Venusian times with sea colored angels.

[Evan]

Venusian. Like Venus.

[Ian]

Venusian. Venus. I A n. Yes, Venusian.

[Evan]

It's a pretty good sounding record. You know, I kind of like it.

[Ian]

Like it's. It's honestly sort of en vogue the way this song, this record sounds like you hear a little bit of this and to, you know, bring up another modern pop star like Olivia Rodrigo, you know, you can imagine she writes songs.

[Evan]

That are kind of like, I hate your face. Cause I love your face.

[Ian]

All right, well, but people love it. This sounded sort of come back around, you know, and I think that it's.

Maybe ripe for rediscovery. Who. Maybe after this ringing endorsement on this stupid fucking podcast, everyone's gonna rush, Rush over and say, oh, the Wilsons. This album's just been sitting here all along.

[Evan]

Did you ever watch or have any kind of relationship with the Buffy the Vampire Slayer property?

[Ian]

No. Did you?

[Evan]

Yeah.

[Ian]

Yeah, yeah. You strike me as a Buffy type of fella.

[Evan]

I had the game. I had the Buffy the Vampire Slayer game on Xbox.

[Ian]

The whole Josh Whedon guy, he's Just always been off putting to me.

[Evan]

The original Xbox had a pretty good Buffy game, actually. It's well known as a good. Well reviewed.

[Ian]

Is that what you. So you played it as a game, but you didn't watch the show?

[Evan]

I think I played the game and I maybe was interested in the show. I think I had a giant book about the show, a huge bible about every episode, and I sort of read. I read little bits and bobs about the show, but I think it was a bad influence. Even just the. The video game, which had, you know, was written, of course, by Joss Whedon. I don't think it was a good influence on my early development in. When it.

[Ian]

Cultural literacy.

[Evan]

Well, not cultural literacy, more just like, in terms of, like. You can't say that in. You can't. You shouldn't try to be. You can't, like, say quippy things and get away with it and, you know.

[Ian]

Oh, you were trying to act like a Jo Whedon character.

[Evan]

Yeah. You know, it's like a 11 year old.

[Ian]

You know, that's funny. I can. I can totally picture that.

[Evan]

These times when you're like. You're trying out saying, like, piss off to someone and then they're like, you're in trouble now. Why'd you say that?

[Ian]

Gee, yeah. I'm glad that. That's just, you know. God, I know. A lot of people love it, you know, God bless you. None of my business.

[Evan]

You know, the cool thing about it, though, and probably the coolest thing about it, period, is that the Breeders did the theme song.

[Ian]

That's fun. Well, this, you know, also, I would say this is not too far away from the Breeders. Wilson's here.

[Evan]

It's like the completely sanded, like, the totally softened.

Baby food version of the Breeders, you know, but that's something, you.

[Ian]

Know, it's not nothing.

[Evan]

Even a sort of baby version of the Breeders is. That's. That's a good start. You know, The Breeders are great. We should do a Breeders series. How about that?

[Ian]

I have never really listened to the Breeders, but I would be willing to sit my white ass down and listen.

[Evan]

They don't have a single bad record. They're actually all very cool. It's like, didn't they just put a new record out? Yeah, well, like a comeback record. Kim Deal had a solo album is what you're thinking of.

[Ian]

Oh, okay.

[Evan]

But the most recent Breeders record isn't like, like super long ago.

[Ian]

Let's see. Yeah, 2018. All right.

[Evan]

Yeah. Honestly, really good. Like, bet they are. They are. It's kind of like listening to solo Lindsay Buckingham, where you kind of get the sense of like, okay, like, some of my favorite stuff that Pixies did was just because it was Kim Deal. Turns out.

[Ian]

Yeah, makes sense.

[Evan]

Not that Lindsey Buckingham was in Pixies.

[Ian]

He was not. No. Boy, wouldn't that have been something. It would have been a bit of a culture clash between Black Francis and Lindsay Buckingham.

[Evan]

The thing is that he. It. It might not have been like he. Lindsay has, like, he's. They could match each other's freak.

[Ian]

It's like a. It's like a Goku and Vegeta thing. They're both like two, you know, two too powerful. I guess if they did the fusion dance and turned themselves into one person.

[Evan]

Okay, so that's another. That's one thing I didn't really have as a youth. I didn't go in for Dragon Ball.

[Ian]

Z. I didn't really either. I don't really know much about Dragon Ball Z, but I did used to watch it on Toonami.

[Evan]

Yeah.

[Ian]

You know, like the 5pm Cartoon Network block.

[Evan]

I recall.

[Ian]

I remember I was really invested in a Majin Buu arc on Dragon Ball Z. You know, the pink guy, he's this big, fat, pink lizard man.

[Evan]

But you found him relatable. Oh, no. He was the villain.

[Ian]

He was the villain. They defeated him and then only to discover after they defeated him, he turned into Kid Buu, which is like a younger version of him that was like, small and very physically fit. And he was even more difficult to defeat. I don't really remember how that whole. That whole story arc worked out.

[Evan]

Hate when that happens.

[Ian]

Last little note of trivia here before we wrap up. Probably the worst episode of this pod ever recorded.

[Evan]

Well, for fans, for super fans, for that person who came to the. The Al Jardine show, this is the worst episode to listen to.

[Ian]

Everything I need. The last song on this record, the Wilsons is, is a song from the Slightly American Music collection. This is a Brian song. And I think he just gave it to Carney and Wendy here on this. On this album to close it out. I like it. It's fun. It's nice. I kind of like the Brian, you know, slightly American music version better. But, you know, I'll take this one too. If you listen to it, it sounds like a Brian song. Doesn't not really sound like the rest of the music going on on the Wilsons, which, you know, sort of makes it stick out like a sore thumb.

[Evan]

Two stars for the Wilsons.

[Ian]

The Wilt. Just the Wilsons no stars for Wilson Phillips.

[Evan]

Two stars for Wilson Phillips.

[Ian]

Yeah, two stars. Absolutely. Two star, three people, two stars. That's, you know, that's plenty to go around.

[Evan]

You get two stars. You get two stars.

[Ian]

Oh, that sounds like a six star then.

[Evan]

No, no, that's it. They're separate groups.

[Ian]

I say.

Well, we've done it. We've done something here on Jokerman Podcast. What do we got coming up? Christmas. It's Christmas. Oh, we love Christmas. Folks, there's so much more Beach Boys Christmas bullshit to. I can't wait.

[Evan]

It's the bells of Christmas.

[Ian]

The bells. God damn it. When I. When I heard that for the first time, my jaw dropped. Bells of Christmas.

Unbelievable stuff. Well, stay tuned. All that and much more coming on.

Someday I'll be next to you.