Jokermen Podcast – "The World of Leonard Cohen" with David Shumway
Date: January 26, 2026
Guest: Professor David R. Shumway (Editor, The World of Leonard Cohen)
Episode Overview
In this episode, hosts Evan and co-host (referred to as Host 1) welcome Professor David R. Shumway, editor of the new essay anthology The World of Leonard Cohen. This conversation takes a deep dive into Leonard Cohen’s multi-faceted legacy, discussing his evolution from poet to musician, his innovation in late career, his complex personal image, and the impact of his most famous work. They explore themes of aging in popular music, Cohen's genre-defying output, religious influences, and the cultural afterlife of songs like "Hallelujah." Animated, thoughtful, and often witty, the discussion offers an accessible entry point for those new to Cohen and fresh perspectives for longtime fans.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Introducing 'The World of Leonard Cohen'
- [02:27] Shumway describes the anthology as a “broad, capacious take on the artist,” exploring Cohen’s musical, literary, aesthetic, religious, cultural, and political contexts.
Quote:"It's a collection of essays that tries to cover very broadly the cultural, musical, aesthetic connections that Leonard Cohen had, his influence, what influenced him."
— Prof. David R. Shumway, 02:27
2. Cohen’s Longevity and Innovation in Later Life
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[03:39] Shumway details the ongoing evolution of Cohen’s artistry, highlighting “10 New Songs” (2001) and Cohen’s late-2000s return to touring as evidence of his relentless innovation.
Quote:"Cohen, it seems to me, is an artist who has continued to develop and create new material... he became in those last tours a great performer in a new way."
— Prof. David R. Shumway, 03:39 -
[06:28] The hosts compare Cohen's final record, You Want It Darker, to Bowie's Blackstar as ultimate late-career statements delivered with full awareness of mortality:
Quote:“There's something kind of magical and spiritually significant about that. As if like he kind of... put their entire artistic essence into these final releases before exiting this mortal coil.”
— Host 1, 06:28
3. Poet to Songwriter: Literary to Musical Vocation
- [09:19] Shumway retraces Cohen's journey from celebrated poet/novelist to singer-songwriter, noting:
- Early literary acclaim at McGill and in Canadian circles
- Frustration at limited audience and financial reward
- Influence of Bob Dylan as catalyst for transition to music
- Ongoing intertwining of poetry and songwriting
Quote:
“But he did not feel that way. He felt that he was not reaching the audience he wanted to reach. He was not making the money he felt he deserved, to be frank. And so he thought that writing songs and singing them might be a way to rectify both of those deficiencies.”
— Prof. David R. Shumway, 09:19
4. Genre and Artistic Categorizations
- [16:54] Cohen’s uneasy fit within folk, rock, and singer-songwriter genres—never quite at home in any single box.
Quote:"Cohen himself quite quickly comes to recognize that...even though he's not performing the same kind of music as the Rolling Stones or the Beatles, he's still attracting largely the same kind of audience... But Cohen is also not exactly a singer songwriter... His songs don't seem to be mainly about him. They seem to be about more kind of the general condition of life. He's more of a philosopher than someone who's interested in self revelation."
— Prof. David R. Shumway, 16:54, 18:54
5. Themes of Faith, Dual Religious Practice, and Discipline
- [20:02] Cohen’s life in Jewish and Zen Buddhist traditions:
- Deep Jewish roots, engagement with family scholarship
- Zen as practice—not religion—for discipline, overcoming substance misuse
- Interplay between the sacred and the profane in work and life
Quote:
“Cohen is an interesting figure because he's personally deeply involved in two religious traditions... he always considered himself Jewish at practicing the Jewish religion, but he also became a Zen monk... Zen seems to have helped him to be able to control those habits.”
— Prof. David R. Shumway, 20:02
6. Public Persona: The 'Dark' Image vs. Reality
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[24:25] Disparity between Cohen’s dour musical reputation and his clever, attractive, and often witty real-life personality.
Quote:"I think Cohen is really is a kind of figure who, who really just is contradictory. There are some things that we can't really sort out. But...the idea of him as dark and depressing... seems to get more intense with his third [album] and not then really be relieved by subsequent albums."
— Prof. David R. Shumway, 24:25 -
[26:18] His impeccable style and consistency in appearance as a marker of generational difference and artistic identity.
Quote:"Even as he aged...he always had a suaveness and a just a complete command of his visual appearance and his projection to the world."
— Host 1, 26:18
"One critic... describes Leonard as having a kind of early lateness, that even when he was in his 30s, he already seemed older even than that... all of that suggested an older man actually than he chronologically was."
— Prof. David R. Shumway, 29:09
7. Aging and Reinvention: 'Old Leonard Cohen'
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[30:41] Shumway’s essay “How to Be an Aged Rock Star”:
- Cohen embraced age openly, unlike many generational peers
- Late tours/records foregrounded the realities of growing old rather than denying them
Quote:
“What struck me about Leonard in those late performances...is that he embraced old age, which distinguished him from most other older musicians...coming out there and saying, look, I'm in my 70s, and this is what it's like to be in your 70s for most people. Most of us are not ageless. And that seemed to me very important.”
— Prof. David R. Shumway, 30:45 -
[34:30] In comparison with Bob Dylan and Joni Mitchell:
"Leonard really grew more in his late years than I think Dylan has... Cohen's last years are almost unmatched in their productivity and genuine musical significance."
— Prof. David R. Shumway, 34:30
8. Albums as Cohesive Works
- [36:44] Countering the perception that Cohen’s albums were just collections of songs, the hosts and Shumway (citing Christoph Lebold) argue for their thematic and conceptual unity, especially in the late period.
Quote:"But I do agree that Leonard thought very carefully about his albums and something that most people don't recognize."
— Prof. David R. Shumway, 37:18
9. The "Hallelujah" Phenomenon
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[39:12] The journey of “Hallelujah” from a complex, equivocal hymn to a cultural touchstone:
- Duality of sacred and profane
- Influence of John Cale’s and Jeff Buckley’s covers, and the song’s evolution
Quote:
"It is a song that in some respects embodies the contradictions that we've been talking about. I mean, it is a kind of hymn, which is a very odd thing for a popular song to be...that combination, the sacred and the profane, runs throughout Cohen's body of work."
— Prof. David R. Shumway, 39:15 -
[41:58]–[42:30] The significance of covers and the collaborative process in shaping “Hallelujah”'s public image:
- Recollections about Cale, “reams and reams” of verses, and assembling the now-standard version
-
[43:06] Ubiquity and oversaturation:
“On the other hand, I mean, the song has become so ubiquitous that one often feels people should give it a rest. That it should be played maybe less frequently and reserved for more important occasions... Cohen himself did suggest at some point that it might be the one song he wished maybe people should stop recording.”
— Prof. David R. Shumway, 43:06
10. ‘Hallelujah’ in Pop Culture: The ‘Shrek’ Moment
- [44:27] The song’s deployment in Shrek as an example of its emotional potency amid pop ubiquity, and a symbol of the sacred/profane tension at the heart of Cohen’s work, referencing Shedden & Cameron’s essay.
Quote:"That the song allows the audience to... understand the character of Shrek in ways that you would not otherwise be able to perceive, given merely the plot and the animation."
— Prof. David R. Shumway, 44:39
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On late-career creativity:
“He embraced old age, which distinguished him from most other of the older musicians...For most people, most of us are not ageless. And that seemed very important.”
— Shumway, 30:45 -
On Cohen’s universality:
“Cohen draws on his own life, but his songs don't seem to be mainly about him. They seem to be about more kind of the general condition of life. He's more of a philosopher than someone who's interested in self revelation.”
— Shumway, 18:54 -
On 'Hallelujah' in ‘Shrek’:
“The sacred and the profane. I mean, it's Leonard Cohen's great song in Shrek.”
— Evan, 44:21 -
On style and image:
“One critic... describes Leonard as having a kind of early lateness, that even when he was in his 30s, he already seemed older even than that. Partly it had to do with his voice, which was always deep... all of that suggested an older man actually than he chronologically was.”
— Shumway, 29:09
Timestamps for Important Segments
- [02:27] – About the anthology’s scope
- [03:39] – Cohen's late-career renaissance
- [09:19] – Transition from poet to songwriter
- [16:54] – Cohen’s complex genre affiliations
- [20:02] – Jewish and Zen influences
- [24:25] – Cohen's “dark” image vs. real-life persona
- [30:41] – Becoming 'Old Leonard Cohen'
- [34:30] – Dylan v. Cohen: Late career comparison
- [36:44] – Unity of Cohen’s album-making
- [39:12] – “Hallelujah” and its contradictions
- [44:27] – “Hallelujah” in Shrek and pop culture
Conclusion
This illuminating conversation with David Shumway showcases Leonard Cohen’s extraordinary career, exploring his literary roots, artistic reinventions, philosophical depth, and pop cultural resonance. The episode offers a nuanced portrayal—Cohen as both the highbrow poet and the soulful performer, the philosopher and the pop icon—making a compelling case for the continued study and appreciation of his world.
Recommended for:
Fans of Leonard Cohen, Bob Dylan, late-period artistry in music, and anyone interested in the intersection of poetry, philosophy, and popular culture.