🔓Unlocked // DEAD & CO. 2025

Summary

Jokermen Podcast: Unlocked // DEAD & CO. 2025

Episode aired: January 11, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this contemplative episode, the Jokermen hosts reflect on attending Dead & Company’s 60th anniversary show in San Francisco. Far from a standard concert review, the conversation unfolds into a deep meditation about the essence of jam band culture, the unique communal experience of Grateful Dead fandom, the evolving legacy of the band, and broader reflections on music, community, and art’s relationship to immortality. Woven through the episode are anecdotes about their time in San Francisco, the experience of Shakedown Street, and musings on what makes the Grateful Dead’s ongoing phenomenon so singular in the landscape of American music.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Dead & Co. Experience: Initiation and Communal Vibes

• First Impressions & Expectations (02:03–03:00):
  • One host attended his first Dead & Co. show. He expected a long-running, communal event and found it “a really great show,” exceeding expectations.
    • “Every show is somebody's first show. And tonight it was your first show.” (Co-host 1, 02:10)
• Communal Nature vs. Traditional Rock Shows (05:32–06:32):
  • The show’s meaning extends “beyond the band,” with a unique energy radiating “in the crowd next to you” as opposed to at a star-focused concert like Bob Dylan's.
    • "At a show like this, the energy... is more importantly, like, in the crowd next to you." (Co-host 1, 05:56)
  • Encounters with strangers (like Diane from Silver Lake) are integral and would be disruptive elsewhere, but are welcome here.

Jam Band Culture: The Eternal Flame, Not a Black Hole

• On Jam Band Phenomena (04:18–05:32):
  • Jam bands are likened to a force: “It threatens to be like a vacuum ... you have to either successfully create the sun or... make a giant black hole. And this was an example of successfully creating the sun.”
  • The Dead exemplify a “society," not just a band—it's “a form of collective art.”
• Influence and Inspiration (06:52–09:38):
  • The conversation comes full circle: the podcast itself owes a debt to the Grateful Dead’s cultural gravity.
    • “Without the Grateful Dead, Jokerman doesn't exist.” (Co-host 2, 07:16)
  • The hosts were introduced to Dead tape culture and podcasts like 36 From the Vault during COVID-19, sparking Jokermen’s own genesis.

The Essence of the Grateful Dead: Participation, Society, and Transcendence

• Distinctive Experience (11:52–12:41):
  • Grateful Dead concerts are "participatory," “distinct from...big festival acts”—a “different universe.”
• The Culture of Shakedown Street (18:25–21:05):
  • The outdoor market of Shakedown Street is a mix of beautiful chaos, authenticity, and “sort of sanitized” modernity, but comes alive with odd characters, artisans, and merchandise.

Economics & Accessibility: The Price of Immortality

• Ticketing & Commodification (21:41–23:11):
  • Tickets and concessions are acknowledged as “insanely expensive,” but this is seen as part of modern music “rent gouging,” not unique to the Dead.
  • Complaints about these prices are gently lampooned:
    • “If you're going to complain about it, it's like you don't have anything to complain about in your life, really?” (Co-host 2, 22:49)

Extended Community: Friends, Pods & The Ego-less Collective

• Meeting with Friends & Listeners (23:11–25:53):
  • The night included running into other podcasters, friends (“Noah Colin” from Blowback), and blending of social circles—emphasizing the “ego-less experience” at a Dead show.
• Contrast with Other Live Music Crowds (25:53–26:41):
  • Dead concerts foster a sense of unity—different from the sometimes “dickish” or “standoffish” crowds found at other major events.

John Mayer, Legacy, and the “Band of Theseus” Effect

• John Mayer’s Integration into Dead & Co. (27:16–29:03):
  • Mayer’s role is discussed with nuance: skepticism gives way to acceptance; he’s not a hired gun but a musician “clearly into it.”
    • “This is his career... this is like a mantle that has been passed down.” (Co-host 2, 28:11)
  • The topic raises philosophical questions: What does it mean for a band’s legacy if no original members remain?
• The Right and Wrong Ways to Continue a Band (29:03–30:17):
  • The Dead’s model is contrasted with “hired gun” nostalgia acts (e.g., Beach Boys), and it's argued the “collective ownership” and “love for the music” make the Dead’s model uniquely credible.

Economics & Spiritual Value

• The Grateful Dead as Capitalism's Best Outcome? (32:43–33:08):
  • The hosts half-facetiously call this “the best case scenario” for capitalism: a living, breathing, communal experience that creates widespread value.
    • “This is what capitalism looks like at its very best.” (Co-host 2, 33:08)

Music as Ritual, the Limits of the Human Body, and the Immortality of Art

• Band, Brand, and Immortality (58:17–59:12):
  • The Dead are seen as transcending the bodies of the players: “It does seem to exist beyond the bounds of the players at this point. ... It is owned as much by the universe as anything else.”
  • By contrast, a mythology/ritual that relies on a singular icon can't be perpetuated in the same way (“would not necessarily work for Bob [Dylan] or any other specific artist” (Co-host 1, 59:00)).
• Community as a Ritual in America (62:44–64:17):
  • The Dead are described as fulfilling a yearning for “ancestor worship,” a ritual America otherwise lacks.
  • The continuity is maintained “not [by] the people exactly… it’s the opportunity to be gathered for something.”

Holograms, AI, and the Problem of “Simulation”

• Rejecting Simulation in Favor of Humanity (64:17–65:52):
  • The hosts strongly prefer “real, actual human beings” to AI/hologram replacements. Dead & Co. is seen as “the most honorable and humanistic and legitimate and inspiring way to keep this body of music alive.”
    • “As fucked up as any of this stuff might be... the current version of Dead and Company... that type of [AI spectacle] is 10,000 times worse. ... This is the way to keep it alive.” (Co-host 1, 65:12)

The Setlist, Performance, and Show Highlights

• Performance Review (43:40–44:26):
  • The set begins with “In the Midnight Hour” → “Bertha,” “Jack Straw,” “Dear Mr. Fantasy,” and the surprise: “Hey Jude.”
    • “The coolest thing… was when they went into Hey Jude. ... everyone in the crowd got so amped ... just, like, sing along.” (Co-host 1, 43:40–44:10)
• Wholesome Vibes & Sincerity (44:26–45:52):
  • The band’s vibe (now more wholesome than dangerous) is praised; efforts to paint the modern Dead as merely “corporate” or slick are challenged.

Reflections on Art, Audience, Universality, and Change

• Grateful Dead vs. Bob Dylan (36:08–40:53):
  • For the Dead, “It’s about stuff... not happening on the stage.” For Bob, “it’s about him and... what’s happening on the stage.”
    • “Bob is like a person who the world can see everything within. And the Grateful Dead ... see everything in the world.” (Co-host 2, 36:30)
  • Dead songs are “spirituals,” “egoless,” fostering universality where Dylan’s are hyper-specific.
• Music as Ritual, Change, and Community (52:10–53:36):
  • Both Dylan and the Dead are about “acceptance of change”—their performances and songs are about “continually renewing” music and spirit.
    • “The changing of things is like... that's Grateful Dead and Bob Dylan. ... To be in a group of people who recognize that... it isn’t just stagnant.” (Co-host 2, 53:07)

Style and On-Stage Appearance

• Commentary on Band’s Look (54:54–56:39):
  • Bob Weir is described as “look[ing] like a wizard... Indiana Jones looking hat, with a peacock feather... shawl serape... capris and Birkenstocks.”
  • The different styles of each band member reinforce the Dead’s ethos: “their strength is reconciling [differences]... their cultural play place is so secure.”

The Succession Question: The Torch in Motion

• What Happens After The Last Original Members? (57:38–58:44):
  • The “torch passing” is acknowledged as part of real-time, with speculation on continuing the tradition “beyond the bounds of the players.”
• Art Transcending Human Limits (61:05–62:11):
  • “The tension between literal... human biology, how long people can live ... and the art that... can and should and will continue to live on indefinitely.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Every show is somebody’s first show. And tonight it was your first show.” (Co-host 1, 02:10)
• “It threatens to be like a vacuum... you have to either create the sun or make a giant black hole. And this was an example of successfully creating the sun.” (Co-host 2, 04:18)
• “At a show like this, the energy ... is more importantly, like, in the crowd next to you.” (Co-host 1, 05:56)
• “Without the Grateful Dead, Jokerman doesn’t exist.” (Co-host 2, 07:16)
• “It’s a society, really. ... It’s participatory. ... This isn’t just a concert.” (Co-host 2 & 1, ~11:00–12:00)
• “He’s shredding as a guitarist, and he’s definitely got a presence up there that I think is necessary.” (On John Mayer, Co-host 1, 28:33)
• “This is what capitalism looks like at its very best.” (Co-host 2, 33:08)
• “I mean, we go to shows... once a week... but these are... there’s such a density to them... liturgic.” (Co-host 1, 52:03)
• “The changing of things is ... that's Grateful Dead and Bob Dylan. ... They... are the ultimate recognizers of it.” (Co-host 2, 53:07)
• “As fucked up as any of this stuff might be... the current version of Dead and Company... [a] technological, perverse simulacrum... is 10,000 times worse. So if it's got to continue to live... this is the way to keep it alive.” (Co-host 1, 65:12)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Intro banter, show expectations ....................................... 01:38–03:00
• Jam band culture, communal experience .............. 03:32–06:32
• Origin of Jokermen's Dead fascination .................. 06:52–09:38
• Nature of Dead’s participatory experience ........... 11:52–12:41
• Shakedown Street & pre-show rituals ..................... 18:25–21:05
• Economic critique & ticket prices ............................. 21:41–23:11
• Friend encounters/community blending ................ 23:11–26:41
• Discussion: John Mayer & “Band of Theseus” ......... 27:16–30:17
• Legacy & collective art, capitalism’s best outcome ... 32:43–33:08
• Contrast: Bob Dylan vs Grateful Dead concerts ..... 36:08–40:53
• Performance breakdown/setlist highlights ............. 43:40–44:26
• Passing the torch & band’s immortality topic ......... 57:38–58:44
• AI/hologram vs. human legacy, art & ritual ............ 64:17–65:52
• Wrap-up, self-rated three stars .................................. 68:44–69:01

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Final Thoughts

This episode is less a traditional music review and more a ruminative journey through the culture, philosophy, and social meaning of the Grateful Dead phenomenon in 2025. The Jokermen hosts—blending humor, personal anecdotes, social critique, and rich historical references—trace the band’s legacy not just through its music, but its persistence as a living ritual and community. It’s a singularly immersive account for anyone curious why, generations after the originals, "the Dead" still matter, and why, for a night in San Francisco, “every show is somebody’s first show.”

Transcript

[Podcast Host]

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[Guest or Interjector]

It.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Welcome back to Never Ending Stories.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Oh, this is a never ending story.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Can we just put this on Jokerman?

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

No, it's got to go on every Stories.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

All right. Well, yeah, that's. No, that's true. That is true. Honestly, I think this is a major, historic moment for Neverending Stories.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

How so? Because we're just talking about the Grateful Dead.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

I mean, gosh, Yeah. I feel like my experience with them has only just begun.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Well, it's already been quite a long, strange trip for them. But that's the great thing. Everyone. You know, every show is somebody's first show. And tonight it was your first show.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Yeah, I had a great time.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

That's amazing. Yeah, I was a little worried that you weren't gonna end up digging it, but I think you kind of came into your own once you realized the communal nature of the experience.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Yeah, definitely. What was your expectation going into this versus how things went for you? Because I'll just be upfront about it. This was like a very. Yeah, it was like a really great show.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Yeah, it. I think my expectations were pretty much like it met. It met my expect. Like, it was kind of exactly what I expected it to be, but like, that. Like a good version of that. Yeah, if that makes sense.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Exactly. I think let's start with the opener.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Well, that's what I was worried, you know? Cause we. So second. We've seen the second night of the Dead and Company 60th anniversary shows here in beautiful San Francisco. The first night was opened by Billy Strings. William Strings. Night three.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Billion Joel Strings.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

That's right. Night three will be Trey Anastasio Band tab. But here, night two, we got Sturgill Simpson.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

This is just like I'm staring into the abyss, you know, it's like, what is jam band culture? And I'm like, here, you know, a couple days ago, like, talking on Twitter and talked about how, like, people just want to go fish because they like live music. And granted I haven't been to a fish show and I don't know if I'd like it. What do you do with that? And that's the question that, like, the Jam Band Phenomena asks. And I do feel like there is no better game in town in terms of just like, having had the time, the 60 years to cultivate and create and refine this thing, you know, we.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Should have gotten Diane in on this.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Yeah, we met someone, but. Yeah, she was over there. Yeah, she was. Diane is from. She's in Silver Lake. Like, right by where I live. But, like, zero mutuals, no cross paths with friends. Or she's, like, more into techno or something. It's, like, very easy to talk to her about this stuff, about the music, which does speak to, like, the nature of it that, like, the Grateful Dead kind of siphons off people who want this thing. Like, the question of the Jam Band is like, what is this thing about? Like, we want to come to this. Like, it's. It threatens to be like a vacuum. It. If done improperly. It's like a black hole. Like. Well, yeah, it is actually like you have to either successfully create the sun or you up and make a giant black hole. And this was an example of successfully creating the sun. And I think that the Grateful Dead is basically that, like. It seems like it's sort of just this eternal flame thing.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

I think it's. It's not even the band anymore, is the thing, you know, is it's like it. The show and the performance they experience is like the people that are there in a way that's like, kind of unlike, you know, pretty much any other rock show you're gonna go to. Certainly unlike a Bob show, you know, which is something that we would use.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

As a reference point. Bob knows it's not, but it's about Bob.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Like, the Bob show is about Bob. And at a show like this, the energy, I think, is everywhere. I mean, it's on the stage, but it's more importantly, like, in the crowd next to you.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Yeah, yeah. It's definitely a dispersal of the energy.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Like, I'll just say, if Diane came up to us at the Bob Dylan show and, you know, started asking before for a dragon or cigarette or whatever, like, and then turned into a 10 minute conversation in the middle of a Bob Dylan song, I would not have been very pleased with that. But here, like, totally works. Totally different thing.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Yeah, I absolutely. I always knew that this was what it was, you know, having started the program, basically, because I was listening to Stephen Hyden talk About the Dick's Picks show.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Yeah, this. We're. We're. We're basically doing 36 from the vault.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

This is as full circle as it gets.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

There you go.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

This is actually like, a huge moment because, like, the. The sperm of the idea of Jokerman, maybe they'll move up in a crazy cosmic way. Isn't it kind of crazy? Like, somehow it's. It's the Grateful Dead.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Without the Grateful Dead, Jokerman doesn't exist. Because during the COVID 19 Coronavirus 2020. Have you heard of this? There was this period of time where I was just listening to that podcast, walking around like the Ralphs in Malibu, listening to that in, like, one earbud. And.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Now here you are doing a pale facsimile of it yourself.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

No, I mean, I think that. What. What I was drawn to with that, you know, listen. I was drawn to just listening to Steve and Rob. And Rob talk about the Dead.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Did you listen to the tapes?

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Yeah, I would listen to the tapes. I mean, that was, like, such a great time because I was just, like, walking around on the beach getting unemployment checks from Italy.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

The early days of the COVID 19 pandemic. A famously great time for everybody.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

I mean, I've said this many times, though. It was one of the best times of my life because just something about what that did, you know, like that back to nature moment where everyone was like, oh, the world is healing. Just because, like, something somehow made some people stop doing some stuff like it that had a huge impact and created, like, a lot of good things. And during that, yeah, I guess I was drawn to the idea of the Grateful Dead more than anything. And Steve is very good at articulating the.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

He.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Maybe he's not the one articulating it, but, like, it's hard for me to even say what it is.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Well, I think it just speaks to the. The culture that exists around the band. You know, the fact that a podcast like that would be so. Would. Would exist in the first place, A and then B would be so, like, as good as it is, as successful as it is, and as relevant as it is to someone like you, for instance, who, like, had never been to a Grateful Dead show, and I don't think had had a ton of experience, like, listening to tapes and stuff. Like, it's.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Yeah. For you, like, what. What is it about the Grateful Dead that was. That is compelling to you?

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Because, like, I honestly don't even know to, like, I think, because it's not music that I, like, am deeply passionate about. You Know, I. It's a great show. This is the second time I've seen him dead and company and it's a fantastic time. But it's like. It certainly is not something that, like, is as personally, you know, kind of relevant, I think, as a Bob, as a Lou, as a Brian, those type of things. But it is just the experience of going to the show is something that is unlike, you know, kind of anything else that you can get. And I guess, you know, I might be saying that because I'm not really a jam band guy. Neither are you, obviously. And there are other jam band things you can do. You can do the Fish, you can do the Goose, you can do. You know, I guess King Gizzard is a jam band at this point, but, like, I don't know, the music. I think the music that jam bands tend to make is something that I'm not really geared for. But the way the Grateful Dead do it, or in this case, Dead and Co do it, like, it makes sense to me, you know, as a. Someone who's just, like, interested in rock.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Songs, I think it makes sense on many levels. On, like, a fundamental level, it makes sense, and it's like a genuine, pure transaction of the kind that basically does not exist anymore. And on a massive scale, it's like one of the true good things that exists. That's left, right? And there are versions of it like Fish and like, King Gizzard or like, you know, people want to do that. Like, this is the template. This is a new. It's an art form, like what the Grateful Dead is, what jam banding is. Whatever. All that is is its own art form. And it's also a form of collective art. It's a society, really.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

It's participatory. Yeah. It's distinct from, you know, so, like, you know, we saw the show at Golden Gate park at the Polo Grounds, which is the main stage of Outside Lands, you know, the big music festival here in San Francisco that's going to. That's gonna be there next week. But I. You know, I would imagine that the experience of seeing whoever is headlining at Outside Lands, Hozier, I think, is one of them. You know, seeing Hozier at Outside Lands next week versus Dead and Cove. It's gonna be quality. Like, they aren't even playing the same game. Like, two different universes, basically. Even though it's still, like, you know, loud music being played on a big stage and big feel type of thing. I just.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Is that thunder, Fireworks?

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Why? People having a good time?

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

What day is it?

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Saturday. Saturday. It's great for that day.

[Guest or Interjector]

Yeah. Sam.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Why don't we talk a little bit more about the. How the. How the actual day went for us here? So.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Well, I woke up last night. We went to. We had an incredible night on the town.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

That's right.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

We went to a smattering of tiki and tiki adjacent themed bars.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

That's right. Li Po lounge, Tonga room, Pagan idol, and then a great dinner at Tadich.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Tadage. I will give you, like, a brief rundown of those places. So we've got Tonga rooms, kind of like large format, like tiki room. Disneyland. Kind of like 20,000 leagues under the sea, like, place that you imagine your uncle having his bar mitzvah in 1978.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

And Uncle's Bar mitzvah. You ordered a zombie. You ordered a zombie that was not too sweet and ended up just being only sour mix tasting like a. Like a warhead.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Yeah. I couldn't. Couldn't drink it. Not a very good tiki bar. But I don't think that, like, you're not gonna catch me being upset that there's like a bar in a crazy old hotel that's like. Has a water feature in it. The ship.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

It's a different. It's a different thing than the classic tiki bar.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Yeah. Which is dense and cluttered and like very small.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Dark. Yes.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

But then the other one, Lipo Lipo rocks, is like a. Just real hole in the wall. Like. Like big, weird hole in the wall.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Like, sort of labyrinthine. Yeah.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Dive. Smells awful. Truly awful. Like something that's up. But great Chinese. My Chinese Mai tai there. And played a pretty good game of Scrabble.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

That's right. You won.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Well, we didn't finish, so you could have won. We were evenly matched.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Sure.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

We haven't played Scrabble ever.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

That's true.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

That was the first time we played Scrabble.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

I don't tend to play much scramble, but. I know you do. Yeah.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

And then. Yeah. Tadich.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Great restaurant.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Great restaurant.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Yeah. Sort of like the, you know, seafood equivalent of Musso and Frank's up here in San Francisco. Even older, to be honest. Been around since 1849.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Although not in the same room.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Just delightful.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Fantastic stuff. Beautiful ciopino. The lamb was shockingly good to me.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

I was not expecting it to be that good.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

I kind. You kind of can't up a lamb shank like that, like, brazed, like. I don't know. They had it on the specials menu. It was like, whatever. Friday.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Yeah, Friday special.

[Guest or Interjector]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

It was great. I. I certainly would not have ordered the lamb shank myself had I been making the decision. But yeah, here's our.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

We got a calamari salad, which was a, like a very vinegary, like not.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

And not a fried calamari salad.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

No, no, it was like a.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

It was literally like a salad with calamari on top.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Yeah. Marinated calamari. Very good, very punchy. Then we had oysters Rockefeller. And then those were kind of like clumsy and bulbous, but good. I liked them. And then, yeah, we had the great buoy base and the Lambshank.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

No, no, no. Chipina, not bouillon. Right. And anyways, great night today. You went out and got noodles at 9 in the morning.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Yeah, I woke up, got noodles, went.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

To the tenderloin to get noodles, woke.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Up, went to the most fucked up part of town, parked my car and then just came, sat down at 9am sharp to get some noodles. Like thin egg noodles with. I just asked for like the. Everything. I just said like to throw everything at me. The special, which is just like the scraps from everything else. So there was like a shrimp in there. There was some duck in there. There was like some duck.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Interesting.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Duck, shrimp, wontons, chicken. Who knows?

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Well, all of the above. Check, check box E on the answer sheet.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Yeah. So I just had a great bowl.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Of noodles and then, yeah, we hung out, had some sandwiches before we left. Yep. And then went out to. Went out to beautiful Haight street scene of the counterculture. You may have heard of it.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

The counterculture doesn't exist until like several, like a couple hours into the show. Like, it's sort of. I mean, it does, but it's like, it really comes alive then. Like, sure, it was going on, but it's sort of like, I don't know, it's. It's hard to say.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

It definitely, you know, and you get this sense on Haight street in San Francisco, just in general. And you also get this. I got the sense at least on Shakedown, which was set up on JFK Drive, which is the big, you know, kind of road down the middle of Golden Gate Park. It. It feels sort of sanitized and sort of aware of itself, I think in a way that I imagine to be different than it was at some point in the past. I wasn't there in the past. So I can't say, you know, for sure whether this is an accurate statement or not. But it. I don't know. There's a. There's a on rails feeling to a lot of it. Not Quite Disneyland type of thing but like corporatized, you know, with some of the danger sucked out of it. Although you know, at a certain point it does start to come alive again. I do love Shakedown. It's a beautiful place filled with just like tons of shitty merchandise. I don't know who's buying except for.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Those little wooden things.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Well, yeah, of course. At the end of Shakedown we. We ran into our buddy Tony who. I forget the name of his thing but he. It's sort of hard to explain. I hooked up with this guy Joe. Not hooked up, but you know, I found Joe on Instagram to do some dyes for us a couple years ago with some Jokerman merch, big family diesel. He does some fire tie dye shit. I'm wearing one of his shirts right now that he did for me for my wedding. And his brother Tony does this awesome like woodwork.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

He does little wooden boxes for paraphernalia and such. Like.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

It was great to see him. He clocked us right away, started talking to us about Van Morrison.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Yeah. Greatest record project. This is a great type of rock organization.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

That's the kind of, that's the kind of person you want to run into on, on Shakedown. But the rest of it is just kind of like the same tie dye shirt.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

With the steely or the bear on it. But it's a beautiful, you know, kind of tapestry.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Happened to be. Is like a stretch leading into the park where there's. There so happens to be a large sculpture of a dragon with a waterfall.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Yeah, the waterfall. Yeah. That's cool and gay park for you.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

So that's like.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

That's there and then you, you know, you walk through Shakedown, you're kind of down towards the, the entrance and there's tons of people selling like Modelos out of their coolers. There's also tons of the balloon guys that are just.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Yeah, I didn't do.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

I'm honestly surprised you didn't do a balloon. I was, I was expecting you to do one.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Didn't do whippets. I think that part of my life is over.

[Guest or Interjector]

They.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

They are, they are big balloons that I'm kind of amazed at how big they can get them before they pop. And there's just tons of guys, you know, ripping balloons. I've never done it, but I'm sure it's a great time. And then. Yeah, then you get into the venue and what was going on in there? We discovered that they were selling coors light for 17 something dollars.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Which you know, that's how it's gonna go. I guess that. I don't know. It's. It's tricky, the. The money making aspect of all this, because these tickets were like 250 bucks a pop. And these are the cheap tickets that we got. You know, you could get the VIP tickets for 700 bucks. You can get the double VIP for like 2,500 bucks, which would just like allow you to stand kind of off to the side in like a tent, basically. But, you know, the food is the price of food at all these festival things. The drinks are insane. I guess that's just how. That's just what live music is at this point. Like, there isn't a world in which you're gonna be able to go to a concert and not just get fucked straight up by anyone selling merch, drinks, food, whatever.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Yeah, it's not like your house burned down and they're gonna like, raise your rent.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

It.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

But it is that ethic. It's that translated, it's rent gouging. But, like, for.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

For. Yeah, which, like, for beer. Yeah.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Which, like, if you're going to complain about it, it's like you don't have anything to complain about in your life. Really?

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Yeah, no, listen, I mean, I, I can afford it and, you know, obviously I did afford it and we did all this, but, like, it just. I don't know, it. It. It does.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

You can get in the door to be disappointed by the $17 beer.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

You're doing okay.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

You're doing fine.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Fair enough.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

I mean, the world is unforgiving and dark, of course. But speaking of which, it was nice to meet up with Noah Colin.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Yeah, we ran into friend of the pod, Noah Colin, brother in podcasting. That's right, from Blowback Podcast.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

I'm only connecting him to the world being awful because, you know, that's something.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

He talks about, sort of the brand.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

And it's like when we talk about music, they talk about, like, we talk about good music and they talk about bad.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Really bad. Yeah, exactly. People and international imperialist wars. But.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Yeah, but he's a mensch and we love him.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

That's right. We had a great time. He was there with, you know, his whole squad of homies out from New York.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Extremely, very kitted up, like they all knew what was going on.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

The one guy had the DMT pen with him that you didn't end up hitting, but.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Well, you know, maybe tomorrow.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Are you. Oh, are you going back tomorrow?

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

I don't have a ticket.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

It's never stopped anyone before.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

We'll see, the next 24 hours could be very momentous for me because, you know, I'm not even sure. I don't know when I'm gonna sleep.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Well, I'm gonna sleep after this.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Yeah. Yeah. I might have to go find some plans.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Yeah. Anyways, great to see Noah, but. And, And I think that was actually part of, you know, he helped us a lot. Exactly. Yeah.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

He was like, put us under his little wing.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

He knows his shit. He's. He's, you know, a deep head. He was there last night. He's gonna be there again tomorrow. Tomorrow. But he just, you know, kind of brought us into his little. His crew. And, like, we ended up hanging with them the whole time. My friend Jordan and his wife Madeline came up and hung with us too. So, like, that's Diane. Diane.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

I was trying to find Diane on here.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

I can't.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

I don't even know where you.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

You followed her on Instagram.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Yeah, but I don't remember. Okay. I don't know who it is.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

I, I, I think that's, that's, that's this thing in practice. That's the beauty of it is just the, you know, kind of ego less experience of going to a show like this. Right. Cause you're surrounded by all these weirdos and freaks and, like, annoying people and, like, you know, tech guys in, you know, fleece and shit. But, like, ultimately, everyone's kind of on the same team. Everyone's to, like, have a good time and help other people have a good time, and it turns into this, you know, kind of community. Shockingly.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

It turns into a good time.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Well, yeah, exactly. But, like, I can't tell you how many times I've been to, like, music festivals or, you know, even regular concerts, and, like, the crowd is just full of, like, dicks and assholes and, like, people who won't let you, like, get by them in the crowd. And it's just like, I mean, we.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Didn'T, to be fair, go up and try to.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

We didn't. But we went pretty far. We were, we were like, in front of probably 70% of the people in that entire place. We weren't just hanging in the back.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

But I mean, it was still, like. They were. Yeah, it was still very far away. But, yeah, these things are relative. But, yes, the, the thing that it's able to do is just, I don't know, it's ephemeral. It will be missed sorely when it's.

[Guest or Interjector]

Gone.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

And people don't want it to be gone.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Well, that's why it is what it is. I mean, we haven't really even engaged with the show itself quite yet. But of course, Dead and Co is really just two members of the Grateful Dead at this point. Mickey Hart and Bobby Ware. And it's filled out by. It's Jade somebody is the other drummer. Jeff Clementi on the keys, Oteel on the bass, and then one Mr. Jonathan Mayer on the guitar, the new Jerome Garcia. What was your read on Johnny up there?

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

I've come to peace with him. His role in this all.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

You're with it? Yeah.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

I mean, long before I went to this, I had already kind of understood and digested that. Like, no, this is, this isn't just like some kind of hacked together, like, slap Dash thing. This is like a organic, as organic as it gets when it comes to, like, synergy. And like, what, Jake, I mean, what John Mayer wants to do as a musician with his career. Like, I think people for a long time were thinking maybe, like, does John Mayer want to put his career on pause for this? But it's clear now that this is.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

This is his career. Yeah, that's true. I think he is putting out records still.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

He is. But this is like a mantle that has been passed down. It is actually like the first time that we're seeing this. This, it is the first time we're seeing this. And this is what we're talking about with, like, the entire Jokerman thing. It's like, this is the best case scenario.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Yeah, I, I, I'm conflicted about it. I mean, I think he pulls it off and he does a great job, and he's absolutely instrumental to what is going on on stage. I think without him, I don't, I don't know that this whole thing works because he's, I mean, he's shredding as a guitarist, and he's definitely got a presence up there that I think is necessary. He's sort of a focal point on stage and certainly in the sound as well.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Well, I don't, Yeah. I don't mean to say, like, it couldn't be better. Like, I just.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

And like any sort of objection I have to. It is not based on John Mayer alone or John Mayer specifically. More so, like, the concept, you know, like, I find, like, I find myself thinking of the Beach Boys. Right, right. You know, and the, the, what passes as the Beach Boys today or what they're, you know, doing.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

And like, you know, the, the idea of, like, just random people, hired guns being brought in to just be Brian Wilson, be Carl Wilson in these songs. And they have no relationship to them whatsoever. And it's just like.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

But I don't get that from them.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Right, well, that's. That's what I'm saying. Like, I don't think that. I think this version of it works, but I don't want to say that this concept in general always works. Right. Like, I think there's a right way to do it, and I think there's a wrong way.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

And it's not even a right or wrong way. It's all about just. Do they love it? This couldn't work if John Mayer didn't love the music.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Yeah, he's clearly into it and like. Like, you know, feels it and is just like, you know, it. They. He might as well have written the songs.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

You know, it has done that to millions of people. I mean, is something that's capable of doing that, creating that sense of, like, collective ownership. I think that's why it's so durable. And I think, like, right now, this particular time. Time, I. I think it's like a good.

[Guest or Interjector]

It.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

I. I think you would have to be a pretty cynical bastard to. To see this in, like, cash grab. I would never give him my money. This. Like, you think these people are all demons? Like, I don't think so.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

No, certainly not. I mean, they're all millionaires already, so, like, they don't need. They don't need another big check in the bank account.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

I mean, they kind of need to keep the machine going, but, like, good God.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Well, no. Remember Noah was telling us about this, or Noah was saying this to us earlier, like, he's. That, you know, part of the reason that they feel compelled to do this shit is not for their own personal reward, but for all the crew people or the entire shakedown apparatus. There's an economy that exists around the Grateful Dead, and if they are not. If there isn't that center point there, that economy disappears. Basically.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

It just makes you realize that it is what it is. It. It's this thing that exists only to exist. And it is like the. I guess when I say it's the best of all possible worlds, or it's like the. The best outcome.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Did you say best. It was the best of all possible world?

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

I didn't say that exactly. I said best case scenario. But I mean, in terms of, like, this is what capitalism looks like at its very best.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Sure, yeah.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

What else? Like, this is. What it would be is, you know, a thing that's purely.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

You know, maybe the core's. Like, it'd be a little bit Cheaper. But in general, I think that's all.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

To make it happen.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Yeah, that's. That's what I'm focused on.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

There's like a palpable clarity. Like, you can see that, like, the vision, the ideals and the execution are. Have been refined and honed to such a point that when you are among 60,000 people who none of them feel like old people are pathetic, this is a good feeling.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Sure. Is there a world in which you would ever be interested or, like, comfortable with, like, a Dead and co. Approach to violence?

[Guest or Interjector]

Bob.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Like. Like members of the Bob Dylan Band, but not Bob Dylan playing Bob Dylan music?

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Well, yes, but it's just that. That's just called. People Will Cover Bob Dylan and. And I mean, maybe you mean literally. Like, I know.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Because that's the tricky thing is, like, you can kind of get away with it with the Dead. Because, like, it's a band and there are some people there, you know, that are part of it, you know, from the. From the beginning. But Bob. There's just the one.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

You know, the Bob thing. And this is. You know, we would be guessing if we said it, but it's like, I think. No, I think basically, like, I would.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Want to see it.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

I wouldn't want to see anything like that.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

But what I do want is like. And what is inevitable and what I welcome would be just. I think there will be a proliferation of respect and further iterations of his work.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

I mean, I. You know, I guess that looks like what, the cat power thing, right? Which, yeah, I think is cool. I'm not, like, particularly jazzed by it, but, like, I'm not mad at it either. I guess it's just like, you know, it's like, all right. That's all right.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

I think that it does clarify that Dylan is more a writer than anything else. Because you don't need. I think of him that way. It's like Shakespeare or Baudelaire or, like. I mean, the giants of literature. I'm just of kind. Do I feel like there's less of them around because they can't play anymore?

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Like.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

I don't know. I think Bob is like the Dead, in a way, but he's.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

That's. I think this. This kind of, you know, all kind of, for me, connects back to what I was saying initially. Which is, like, for Bob, it's about him and it's about what's happening on the stage. And for the Dead, at least this iteration of it, it's about stuff that we isn't happening on the stage. And that's the breakdown there. That's the dichotomy.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Bob is like a person who. The world can see everything within. And the Grateful Dead are people who see everything in the world. And people want to go to that. To be seen. Like, to see and be seen is the feeling of the whole Dead thing. It's like. It's actually the. The inevitable communion of the rock audience and its players. It's. It is that thing that we try this. The. The thing that makes this show something that exists, you know, it's like that there's something between the audience and. And listener. Because the Grateful Dead is not a phenomena without that relationship. The audience.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Yeah, that's part of it. Exactly. That's why the Grateful Dead is most famous for. Not their records, really, but, like, the tapes. You know, when people listen to the Grateful Dead, typically, they listen to historical events. Yeah. The documents of that particular night in the room. Exactly.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Which implies that it's just really not about music. It's about life itself.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Yeah. I mean, it's.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Yeah, it's where it leads you.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

I mean, I think you see it in the song songwriting also, you know, or even as well, compared to Bob, for instance. Because, like. I mean, some of the Grateful Dead songs are great songs. Obviously, many of them are great. But there isn't this, you know, Eyes of the World or China Cat Sunflower or Truckin or something like. Those aren't, like. That's not. Visions of Johanna. That's not. It's All Over Now, Baby.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

I would say Evergreen of Sand Could Be is like his most Dead, like, song, kind of.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

I mean, maybe I just need to say. Yeah, I mean, I guess I see that there's. I don't know. There's a universality, I think, to a lot of the Grateful songs, almost all of them. And that is, like. That works in their favor. And, you know, Bob Dylan, like, universality is not what Bob has ever gone for.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

India. It is like Bob is. Bob achieves universality by way of the hypers. Specific. And the Dead do that by finding a really beautiful language.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

I think there are Bob Dylan songs that, like, kind of work in that same way.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Like, they cover him so much. Like, they. They covered him constantly. It's all over now. Baby Blue is like one of the. Yeah, they cover that from the very beginning of the band.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Yeah, I know. You're right. I mean, it's.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

I think their version is one of my favorites.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

I. I mean, Knocking on Heaven's Door and I think Knocking on Heaven's Door And Masterpiece, you know, songs like that, which they played Knocking on Heaven's Door last night, they didn't do any pop covers tonight. They might do Masterpiece tomorrow. Those are the types of songs. Songs, I feel like that, you know, there's a clear link between Bob and the Dead there.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Their songs are egoless. They don't have the frame of, like, this personality that we then, you know, think of as Bob Dylan slash ourselves in those songs. Like, the Grateful Dead songs are not about this. Bob Dylan slash you yourself, that you're thinking of. The Grateful Dead songs are more like spirituals. Yeah. And they. They have that angle. And it's no question why, you know, Bob is so sympatico with them. Like, there's something there between Jerry and Bob, sort of.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

I think Bob would.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

And Robert Hunter. I mean, these guys don't just come up in the same breath and inspire podcasts about each other for no reason.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

I think that what, you know, part of why he's so interested in it is because it's something that he doesn't do himself or, like, it's a different way of making music and approaching it.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Is the same thing, but it's, like, from a different direction.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Right. They might arrive at the same destination, but they've gone. They've gone about getting there.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

And just, like, in a distinct way, and what it is is just a sense of. Of appreciation for life really is like that. That's kind of like, at the root of all their songs. And I think at the root of, and increasingly the point of Bob's songs, like, if you want. It's not political to say that Bob Dylan's songs are about life and about, like, being affirming of life. Although in these fucking days, it is political to say that people should live. So that's why right now feels so strange. I mean, I think that we're just particularly, like, at, like, a weirdly crazy, crucial, like, moment of very clear boundaries or, like, dividing lines. Like, people are starting to just be like, I like things that are good, that are supportive and nurturing in their tone.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Yeah, certainly. No, you know, I want Superman not.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

To be doing 911, like, all the time. I want him to save a square squirrel instead.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Please. Well, you. You've gotten your wish. Thank you, James Gunn.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

But I think there is, like, a. It's. Why is it, like, the Dead coming back in the last 10, 15 years, like, so much? But, yeah, it's like, the vibe and, like, the fact that it's kind of, like, easily marketable, but it's that it's easily marketable because it's something that is very inherently desired.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Does feel like something that is, like, old and distinct from what you get in. In reality these days, you know, even going to concerts and stuff. Just like, the feeling. The feeling in the crowd is, you know, I don't know. It just. I kind of felt at ease and comfortable, I think, in a way that I often do not in crowd. Bigger crowds full of people like my age, you know, And I guess that's maybe why we. You and I, have spent the last however many years of our life just talking about, you know, aging and dying rock musicians from 50 and 60 years ago. Do you have any favorite moments we haven't barely even talked about? The actual.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Are the weirdest episodes.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Yeah, it's. It. People will understand.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Okay.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

I mean. I mean, the first thing that came to mind for me, like, the. The. The coolest thing or one of the coolest things, and the first moment where I was like, all right, this fucking rocks. Is when they went into Hate Jude. Oh, yeah, that was like.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

They did go to Hate Jude.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

That was fantastic. They did. I'm looking at the set list right now. They started with in the Midnight Hour into Bertha. Bertha was great. Into Jack straw, into Dear Mr. Fantasy. And then. Then all of a sudden, hey Jude just popped up. And, like, everyone in the crowd got so amped and, like, on one level, like, it's kind of silly that here's Bob Weir just pulling out hey Jude all of a sudden. But, like, everyone was so stoked to hear hey Jude and, like, just, like, sing along to hey Jude to get.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Together, you know, I think we've actually. We are at a point and it just so happens to be like, for my own personal life, I feel like it's happening too. But, you know, astrology or whatever. But, like, people are. There's an appetite. There's, like a direction heading toward. Just, like, people done talking about nice core sincerity versus irony. It's just like, people just want things to be good and people know more. Like, this is one of the things that is. And you can kind of. You can fashion a life around the nucleus of it as like, this thing is. Basically comes from a wholesome impulse.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

It is very wholesome. Yeah. And. And like, I. I would again, probably assume that it has become more wholesome over time. And I think that there probably was some darkness and danger.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

In the past that we just aren't seeing at this point. But, you know, even still, I think that it's. It. It's not just like, there isn't like a nihilism to it.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

It's too simplistic and seems wrong to like, look at this and be like, this is a slick, like a corporate version of the Grateful Dead, which is.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

What a lot of. I mean, it is that.

[Guest or Interjector]

But.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

If you had a really well funded temple, a place of worship, like, what would you say would be like, yeah, yeah, this is corporate.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

It's.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

It is like that. Like, you can't ignore that, the importance of it to people. The impact of it is of that sort of thing.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

I mean, it is more like keeping a religious community going than it is, like keeping a band going. And, you know, Lord knows there's all manner of ways that that can actually be hell on Earth. Like, look at evangelical Christianity, where it's just like, that's. This is what they want to have happen. Like, but they're. They're doing it basically, like complete, completely fucking wrong.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

I wasn't expecting evangelical Christianity.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

What else is on that scale? And like, with that level of gravitas, like, they know what they're doing. They know that there is like a huge ship that they're steering.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

I mean, I think it's like, it's. It's closest to a. Like an edm, you know, kind of headliner type of thing.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

I mean, I'm talking about, like, what people feel about Jerry and like, what people. Everything about it is so sanctified.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Yeah. There is like a worshipful feeling in between the two sets. They started playing, like, video interviews with everyone. And, you know, Jerry was the first. It was an old school video of Jerry maybe from the 70s or something like that. And he was, you know, just talking about the band and their history in San Francisco and stuff. And people just like, fell silent to kind of just watch him speak up there on the screen. It is. I mean, it's pretty. Pretty wild how the, you know, I say cult of personality and that sounds. You know, it has like a negative connotation to it, but, like, imagine that, but a positive version.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Well, if a personality is truly open, then it's like it doesn't feel like.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

And even Bomb. Even Bob had that right. Because, like, we talked about in lots of. Was Steve, like, you know, his eulogy for Jared, like, the way he spoke about Jerry. We saw him in the 1980, you know, tape that we listened to. The way he, you know, brought Jerry on stage and had him play with him. Like, there's just something. Something different, man.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Yeah, it's. The next step is like The. The artist and then the artist's relationship with its audience and that being recognized and then maybe making art with that in mind. Like, it's an evolution in what rock music is. The Grateful Dead model is, like, kind of. Yeah. It's a complete, like, structural leap. Takes it to its furthest ends in terms of, like, can you make a society out of this? Like, kind of.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

There is sort of a utopian. Yeah. Kind of quality to it, and it's.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Utopian in a way that's very durable and, like, works still because all of that, like, kind of nasty ugliness is like. Everyone knows, like, that's, like the. There's a very earthy sense of, like, realism that is the root of it, which is, like.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Sounds like you're about ready to go full wook.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

I mean, basically, I. I get why people do. You know, I wouldn't necessarily do that myself, but, like, I'd love to see you grow up.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

The white dreads.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Yeah. No, I mean, I think that there's, like, no denying that it's a. There's a reason there's such a thing.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Yeah. I mean, clearly, it does it for a lot of people and in a.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Way that literally nothing else does.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Like.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Well, in this world where community is just, like, good luck, like, you. We can try.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

I think that is. Well, yeah, sure, sure. But I mean, our shit is, like, even slightly, you know, kind of naturally poisoned just because it has to be distributed through the Internet.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

I don't even think it's naturally poisoned. I feel like our thing doesn't even exist without the Grateful Dead on some level. Like, so it's just like a. It's an example of how it perpetuates communities.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

It is a dialogue. It's a unique thing. Totally. You know, it's almost a misnomer to call it just like, a concert or, like, going to a show, you know, because it's so. You know, because whatever. We go to shows, you know, once a week or whatever, and, you know, they're good. You know, you. You like the show. It's a fun set or whatever. You have a good time, you have a drink or whatever, and then you go home, and then you kind of forget about it.

[Guest or Interjector]

And.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

But, like, these are. There's. There's such a density to them. You know, there's the liturgic.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

I mean, the stuff of, like, the Bob shows, where it's like, we know the set now, but, like, it's the same thing. It's like you. You go. Because actually, there's always Something new. Like, it's the. It's a spiritual perspective of just, like the freshness of things. Like, music must be continually renewed. And it is. And I think that's, like, so clear. That's why Bob is so on board with the Dead.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Like, why they're so on board with him. It's like they both see this thing of like, a very deep acceptance of change is like their most. Is that. That's like things have changed. Things have changed. Like, the changes.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

I love being John Mayer do things. Things have changed.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

The changing of things is. Is like. That's Grateful Dead and Bob Dylan. They are all about that. That is who they are. They. You're in or you're out based on whether how much you recognize that. And they are like, the ultimate recognizers of it. And to be in a group of people who recognize that, it's like one of the last things. Things that isn't just stagnant. And even if it's reach.

[Guest or Interjector]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

They're playing the same songs. But, like.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Like I said, every. Every show was somebody's first show. And tonight was your first show. It's a whole. Yeah.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

I mean, the truth is just nothing happens the same way ever again. Like, every single second is different.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

And to bring it back to, you know, Diane once. Once again, as she said, she's a little bit more into the EDM scene. But, like, I can't think of another show that I would go to that would, you know, lead to me interacting, like, even literally being in the same place with much less having a conversation with and, you know, becoming spontaneous friends with the Dianes of the world.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Yeah, well, it's just. It is something that goes kind of beyond taste, but also, you know, they have good taste. I mean, they have their taste.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

They have their taste.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

I mean, the Dead is a. Has a repertoire. They have a. They have a style. But it's kind of just like the style of American music broadly.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Well, a certain. Yes, certain strains of American music, at least. Speaking of style, Bobby Ware looked fantastic up there.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Yeah. I mean, he looks like a wizard.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

He looks like a skeleton. Like, I feel like I can literally see his skull, like, through his skin, basically. They all do.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

I mean, well, him and also John Mayer, when he makes his guitar faces.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Oh, man, he looks like.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

He kind of looks like a skeleton, too.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

I think he looks. He looks pretty good up there.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Not in a bad way. I just mean, like, I think, in fact, that's part of what makes people cute sometimes. Like, how much more they look like a Skeleton, like if you can see their skeleton.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

I wasn't getting the skeleton thing off John Mayer, but maybe that's just when things like getting.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

He's showing his teeth, like.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Yeah, I guess so. Skeleton is.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Have teeth kind of like. I mean, when he's stucking in, you just like see the shape of his skull. Just like the smiley happy.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

It's. It.

[Guest or Interjector]

He.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

He's got nothing on.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Also. He's very handsome.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Bob. Bob, like, God bless him. He's. He's up there in his like kind of leather, like a Indiana Jones looking hat, but with a. With a. But it's not a fedora.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

It's like a bass fed.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

No, because it's, it's. It's leather and it's. It's a wider fedora. It's a. But it's a wider brim. A fedora.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Slightly wider, relatively.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

And he has like, like a peacock feather in it. And he was wearing like a, like a shawl. Like a shawl?

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Yeah, like a shawl serape type thing.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

And also his capris and he's wearing the Birkenstocks, just so, you know. Fantastic.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

A vision.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

I kind of love how like everyone up on stage looks like they come from a different band.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

You know, like, I feel like people kind of like some people talk shit on that and they're like, what is John Mayer doing in this group of people? Like, he looks like totally. But like that's kind of the vibe of the band is like they're all just from totally different worlds and yet they are, you know, they are a band themselves.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

I think that's the strength of them is reconciling all of that together. It's like one of these, like through the lens of the Grateful Dead, you can kind of just reconcile things that otherwise can't be. And when it comes to like people of varying music tastes and temperaments being at the same thing, and that's like the clearest example of it. But just the fact that they're cultural play place is so like secure. I don't know. I don't know. Nothing I'm saying is breaking ground, obviously.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Well, maybe, maybe it is what we.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Can do to break ground. I mean, the thing that we are witnessing when we see this particular iteration of this is that it's the first time it's actively like watching the torch in motion being passed or like that. That's part of it.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Yeah. I mean, I think we had this. I had this conversation three or four times tonight alone. It sort of seems to be the Conversation that everyone can't help but have. But, like, what does happen when, you know, Bob Weir and Mickey Hart, one or both of them are no longer planned.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

When you have accepted that the premise of your music depends on a sense of the transcendent, you do have to just accept that the band will go on without you, without anyone. It will go on.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

It does seem to exist beyond the bounds of the players at this point. Yeah, I think that they've said they. They've made that leap at this point.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

It is. It is owned as much by the universe as anything else. Like, it is. It's public domain as far as, like, the. The soul is concerned or something.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

But that, again, like, I think that works for the Dead and for this body of music, but would not necessarily work for Bob or any other specific artist.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

No, I mean, I think Bob is the. It's not all music either. Like, I think every art form has, like, a thing that it can. It can reach that place. You can, like, access it a little bit.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Like, you know. You know how. Like Dune, for instance? Right. Like, I have any. I haven't even read any of the Dune books. I've just seen pretty good. I read the first two. No, I'm sure they're right, but, you know, Frank Herbert's son ended up writing as many Dune novels as Frank Herbert wrote, or maybe even more. Yeah.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

And Batman. I've been actually, like, really delving into the. I've just kind of gotten back into comics. Like, I don't care. I don't read comics, but I like, watch videos of.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

We got an MCU fan over here.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

No, I like dc. DC and more interested in dc.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Interesting. Detective. Detective comics.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Yeah, it is one of them. There's. There's something going on there, too now with, like, the Superman movie. Like, people do want to have a. They want to reaffirm the relationship with these things that kind of have a. Moral clarity and, like, sense of permanence. I think that Superman, like, it's easy to just be like, brush all that off. But it's like Superman very old. The Grateful Dead, very old now. Old. Bob Dylan, old.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Old.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

It's like the. But they. What they all have in common is, like, they make sense existing in each other's worlds. Like, those things all exist together. Like, when he says, isn't there like a Dead song where he says, like, just like Jack?

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Yeah. I don't know. I. I don't know. Most of the great. I knew, like, four songs anyway. I mean, I do. I do ultimately think that what's interesting about this? I mean, there are many things interesting about it, but, you know, one of the most interesting things. Sure, right. One of those interesting things is like, you know, the tension between, like, literal, like, the bounds of human biology, how long people can live and, you know, kind of continue to be just one person doing this stuff. The tension between that and the art that is not bound by human biology and can and should and will continue to live on indefinitely in a way that the body does not. And, you know, I think that Dead and Company is sort of, in its own weird, fucked up way, like an answer, like a synthesis, a way to kind of reconcile the limits of human biology with the reality of these.

[Guest or Interjector]

The.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

The permanence, the immortality of art.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Yeah. I mean, there's people today who want to try to convince you that, well, we need to just upload our consciousness. Like, we're not going to upload our consciousness.

[Guest or Interjector]

That's.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

That is the opposite. Uploading your consciousness, whatever that is.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

There is Bill Mar.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

There, like, Peter, like, people who think.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Like, that's like, Bill Maher.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

I feel like he probably believes that's.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

How he would probably think it's cool.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

But it doesn't work that way. Like, art is a ritual thing. It is a thing that people do because of the acknowledgment of death and a. And an answer to it that keeps things kind of imbalance. Like, the way that it works out is just that, like, these people die and then other people show up to continue to do this thing, acknowledging them. Like, this isn't. There's no ancestors. Like, there's. People don't in America, like, pray to their ancestors, but, like, this is kind of the closest thing we've got. And it's not the people exactly. It's the. It's the opportunity to be gathered for something. It's not the songs even, or the merch or, like, the imagery itself. Like, it is all just part of. Part of something which is a gesture. It's just a gesture that is repeated and that is always going to be, like, just the. The right thing to do versus some abstract idea of, like, crunching your memory into a little tiny chip. Like, what Is that?

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Right? Yeah. No, I mean, there is a world in which. And it may end up being this world at some point. Maybe it already is, and I just don't know about it. But there's a world in which, you know, the future of the Grateful Dead music is not Dead and Company you know, this kind of band of Theseus. But you Know, made up of real, actual human beings who come from different places and appreciate this music. But, you know, it's simulated instead. There's the Jerry Garcia hologram, or there's the VR experience of, like, I'm gonna go back to the Winterland Ballroom in.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

1976 or something like that. It's gotta be people doing it.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Well, but that's it exactly. Like, I think, given those choices, for me, at least, this is. I take this 100 times out of 100. This is absolutely, like, the most honorable and humanistic and legitimate and inspiring way to keep this body of music alive is through, you know, literal human bodies and not trying to capture and distill some sort of magical, you know, kind of essence of the past and represent it in this kind of technological, perverse simulacrum or whatever. As fucked up as any of this stuff might be, you know, in reality, you know, the current version of dead and company, you know, that type of. Is 10,000 times worse. So if it's got. If it's got to continue to live, and I think that it should, clearly, I think this is. This is the way to keep it alive.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Yeah. To decry big money in this is like, okay, well, this is, like, the one thing. Thing that if we could give a pass for, like, they make a lot of wasteful merch. It's like, okay, Disney makes more merch than the Grateful Dead ever will for a movie that, like, flops. And they do that, like, 15 times a year.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Yeah. You didn't buy the $253 panel triptych poster, did you?

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

No, but how many posters are there in the world? Like, in the warehouse in Indiana Jones of, like, so and so as Digby or whatever in, like, the new, you know, Digby Gobbo, as bb like, all these, like, single posters that exist for, like, a character.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Oh, right. Zendaya is Michi. That's right.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

That's LeBron James is cool Monkey.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Yeah, that kind of like. That is. That is wasteful. That is garbage.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

The merch, the mer.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

All I'm saying is just like, don't.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Eat pretty shitty merch. I. I'll just say, yeah, pretty shitty merch.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Like, yes, but, like, you are looking a gift horse in the mouth. Like, I. I can't say any clearer than to be disappointed in, quote, what the Grateful Dead has become, unquote. That just means that you never really got.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Had a good time. This is either gonna be the best episode that we ever recorded or the word. You know, I think it's gonna be appropriate no matter what because it's a little heady, a little esoteric.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

A little. Yeah. I don't know. This might be in the worst. Let's just say it's the worst. We'll say it's the worst episode. Then your expectations can only go up.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Go up from there. Three stars.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 2]

Yeah. Three stars for the three stars for.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Dead and Co. Three stars for Tadich Tadich. Three stars for the whole grand experience.

[Guest or Interjector]

Must be Tad reading everywhere. It's all right I will give by. I will get by I will get by. See you've got your say A yes I can Just a bit but it's all right Sorry that you feel that way Only thing that is to say Every silver lining is Captain Touch of grave I will get by I will get by I will give up I will survive. It's a lesson to me.

[Co-host or Main Speaker 1]

Ab.