Jason Biggs

Summary

Joy, a Podcast: Craig Ferguson with Jason Biggs

Episode Date: November 18, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode of the Joy podcast, Craig Ferguson sits down with actor and first-time movie director Jason Biggs for a freewheeling, candid, and frequently hilarious conversation. The two industry veterans swap stories about Hollywood, fame, child acting, creative failure and success, relocating from LA to New York, and what it really takes to find joy—and keep perspective—in a notoriously up-and-down business. With banter and self-deprecation, Ferguson and Biggs pull back the curtain on the realities of show business while also reflecting on personal journeys and growth.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Burden (and Blessing) of “Iconic” Roles

• Opening banter: Ferguson jokes about old projects, bad movies, and the random encounters with fans who reference "American Pie" as a “shameful” favorite.
• Biggs reflects on becoming synonymous with a mega-hit:

  “I went through that... am I going to be this guy? Is this what's happened?” (05:18 – Jason Biggs)

• Both agree: As time goes on, you appreciate what success those projects brought.

2. Life as a Kid Actor & Parenting

• Biggs shares the realities and ups/downs of being a child actor in New Jersey—not Hollywood:

  "I could...in my ruts as a kid actor, I could just be a kid. Right. You know, I actually welcomed them to an extent." (07:05 – Jason Biggs)

• Ferguson and Biggs muse on whether they’d let their own kids act; both are wary of exposing children to the industry too soon (08:21).

3. Industry Rejection and Resilience

• Both discuss the constant rejection baked into show business:

  "You have one ball and you have one pitch in 10, and you're a Hall of Famer...you’re going to look like a dick." (09:37 – Craig)

• The myth that top creators have no failures is debunked—failures just disappear quietly (10:11–10:19).

4. Behind the Curtain: Hollywood Stars as Real People

• Anecdotes about actors like Oscar Isaac, Harry Connick Jr., and Pierce Brosnan abound, highlighting their professionalism and humanity.
• Ferguson tells a memorable Brosnan story (17:12) and delves into how Hollywood can be demystified when you realize stars lead regular lives:

  "It was so normal. And then you would, like, read, you know, it was like, oh, the Hollywood cocktail party set. I'm like, I don't think I ever went to a cocktail party..." (34:19 – Craig)

5. On Fame: Then and Now

• The concept of fame has shifted—more fragmented, accessible, and not always lucrative in modern social media era (25:03–25:19).
• Kardashians get a nod for professionalism and hustle despite being easy targets for derision (25:44–25:59).

6. Set Etiquette & Working in the Industry

• Ferguson and Biggs lament actors behaving badly—being late, egotistical, or disrespectful—and the importance of respecting the craft and everyone involved (26:42–27:51).

  "I've been on sets where people are late or won’t come out of their trailer...it’s a combination...those are the kinds of things that really bother me, you know." (27:07–27:51 – Jason Biggs)

7. Living in LA vs. New York

• Both recount their long stints in LA, why they left, and the unexpected ways the city affects you:

  "I went for two weeks and I was there 23 years... I woke up, I had two kids, I had been divorced and remarried and I was a fucking vegan with a cat." (42:15–42:25 – Craig)

• Biggs describes his move for family and sobriety, as well as how NYC's energy aids his well-being (40:06–41:05).

8. Sobriety and Geographical “Cures”

• Ferguson shares his own story of sobriety and moving to Scotland before returning to the States, musing on how relocations can help but aren’t a cure-all for inner struggles (41:05–42:16).

9. Directing for the First Time

• Biggs reveals the fear and thrill of directing his first film, “Untitled Home Invasion Romance,” and balancing acting in it as well:

  "I've always wanted to direct. I've always thought I could do it. ...But I was afraid." (44:08 – Jason Biggs)

• Insights on taking creative risks, new responsibilities, and learning to trust the process.
• Both discuss the challenge of being in your own film and the editing process as a new creative joy (45:44–56:20).

  “I directed a movie that I was in...the biggest mistake I made...dealing with #1 on the call sheet, who was also me.” (45:47–46:04 – Craig)

10. Balancing Pride and Self-Criticism After a Project

• Ferguson admits he was once a “dick” about his first movie, hard on himself and others, but eventually learned to step back and value what was accomplished (49:55–50:53).

  "Once you make it, I think you have to shut up about it, which is weird because you have to promote it." (50:40 – Craig)

• Biggs expresses resonant anxieties—dwelling on what could have been, wondering when or if you can really like your own work (51:09–54:03).

  “Do I like it? You’re right, I don’t know. And it'd be interesting to see in 10 years what I feel about it.” (53:53 – Jason Biggs)

11. Future Directing Aspirations

• Biggs hopes to direct again—next time, with a smaller role or none at all:

  “The headline being I would do this again. I think I might try to give myself a smaller part, if any.” (54:48 – Jason Biggs)

12. Theater vs. Film Directing

• Brief discussion on how theater directing differs, and might be more actor-focused and pure, but also competitive—“a whole line around the block waiting to take the part.” (56:20–56:44)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Relentless Forward Motion in Hollywood:

  “You can be standing on a red carpet with an Oscar in your hand… and they'll say…what do you do next? What's next?”
  (11:47 – Craig paraphrasing Macaulay Culkin)

• On Set Behavior:

  “I've been on sets where people are late or won’t come out of their trailer… Is it control? Is it…infantile?...Those are the kinds of things that really bother me…”
  (27:07–27:51 – Jason Biggs)

• On LA vs. New York:

  "I went for two weeks and I was there 23 years...I woke up...I was a fucking vegan with a cat."
  (42:15–42:25 – Craig Ferguson)

• On Editing and Directing:

  "I loved editing. Editing was amazing... But working with the actors, the other actors..."
  (56:01 – Jason Biggs)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:05] – American Pie and fan encounters
• [04:19] – Kid actors and becoming a heartthrob
• [05:18] – On being “that guy” and the burden/blessing of a signature role
• [07:07] – Biggs on being a child actor in Jersey
• [09:37] – Rejection in show business (“baseball” analogy)
• [17:12] – Pierce Brosnan story and the reality of seeing stars as people
• [25:03] – Changes in fame and social media
• [26:42] – Set etiquette and disrespectful actors
• [40:06] – Leaving LA, drinking, isolation, and finding new energy in New York
• [44:08] – Fear and excitement of directing for the first time
• [49:55] – Ferguson on being critical of his own work
• [53:53] – Biggs: “Do I like it? …I don’t know.”
• [54:48] – Would Biggs direct again? (“Headline being I would do this again…smaller part, if any”)
• [56:20] – The appeal of directing theater

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Tone & Style

The conversation maintains Ferguson’s wry, self-deprecating, and whip-smart humor throughout, with Biggs matching his candor and openness. The tone is warm, unguarded, and often playfully irreverent, displaying deep mutual respect and a shared willingness to poke fun at themselves and the industry.

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For New Listeners

This episode offers a rich, honest, and funny look inside the realities of fame, creativity, and growing up both in and out of the industry. You’ll leave with both industry insight and a sense of the joy—and absurdity—that comes from surviving, evolving, and sometimes failing publicly, while still loving the work and the people around you.

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Memorable close:

"Obviously now I'm gonna quit doing a podcast. Cause this was it." *(57:16 – Craig)
"It doesn't get better." (57:22 – Jason)

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Listen for laughs, honesty, and a much-needed dose of humility about Hollywood, life, and where we find our joy.

Transcript

[A]

This is me, Craig Ferguson. I'm inviting you to come and see my brand new comedy hour. Well, it's actually, it's about an hour and a half and I don't have an opener because these guys cost money. But what I'm saying is I'll be on stage for a while anyway. Come and see me live on the Pants on Fire tour in your region. Tickets are on sale now and we'll be adding more as the Tour continues throughout 2025 and beyond. For a full list of dates, go to thecraigfergusonshow.com See you on the road, my dears. Hello, welcome to the Joy podcast. I am your host, Craig Ferguson, and this is my lovely jacket that I'm wearing today. But I'll be taking it off to interview my guest today, who is a movie star, an American icon, and has recently become a director of movies. He's a national treasure and I adore him. Welcome, Jason Biggs. I'm gonna take my jacket off so I can talk to him without sweating. Also, I don't want him to be intimidated by how awesome my new jacket is. So it's all good. I.

[B]

You in the city for a minute?

[A]

I have been. I've been filming this fucking thing. We've been everywhere. Let me just say this, though. I will say this, that just as the. We were. We ran into a gentleman the way in that was talking to you about the old American Pie movies. And he was. He said, I watched them. Then he talked like it was kind of porn or something.

[B]

Yeah, he was like, it's kind of shameful. That was the word he used, shameful.

[A]

I don't want to advertise that. I was watching him, I was like, oh, my God. And I was like, stop. And then he kept going.

[B]

Kept going.

[A]

I sometimes wonder, you know, when people. Because people sometimes say to me, I saw that thing you did, that was really bad. Terrible. But these American Pride movies, they're not bad.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, they got, you know, they got progressively worse, I'd say. But you know what? And actually, that's not even true. That. That's actually not true.

[A]

I.

[B]

The first one is still, of course, I think the best. And there were some. I don't know, I'm proud of all of them. There were some, you know, there were some moments in some of the movies. Let me tell you, it happens with sequels. It happens.

[A]

Let me tell you, there's some movies I made that didn't go to sequel for a reason.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, let me just say this we were. I think we talked about this. Last time I was talking to you, I did a movie called Life Without Dick. No, not that. I did do a movie called Live Without Dick which is also not a great movie. But the one movie I'm gonna tell you about was a movie called Life Without Dick. Sarah Jessica Parker, Harry Connick Jr. Me as an Irish mobster.

[B]

Okay, shocker, shocker, shocker.

[A]

Yeah, it's a shame. Harry Connick Jr. Is nice though.

[B]

Is he a nice guy?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, he's a nice guy. I just remember filming with him at a junkyard once and there was a lot of pelicans. Not pelicans.

[B]

Seagulls.

[A]

No, close. The ones with the big fan. Peacocks. Peacocks, yeah, there were peacocks.

[B]

Junkyard. Peacocks.

[A]

Junkyard.

[B]

Some people go. Some people go dog.

[A]

Yeah, some people go dogs.

[B]

You know, some people go.

[A]

They were like mean peacocks. Like when they spread their fan. They did gang sign.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. They were like big, big sign at the front, Beware peacock, no entry.

[A]

But peacocks make a horrible noise and apparently they're good guard dogs. So when you're trying to do a two handed scene with someone and the peacock keeps going. And that's what I remember about Harry Cornick Jr. And how he was such so professional. He was like. It would go, huh? And he'd stop acting and then wait for that and then he'd act again.

[B]

I was like, that's a pro.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, he's really.

[A]

I liked him. Yeah. I'm not gonna lie, I liked him a lot.

[B]

You've been around a few peacocks in your day?

[A]

Yeah, I've been around actors who don't. Who would just act through the peacock. But he stopped and then started again. He's a good lad. Anyway, no, the film was going to tell you about, I told you about was called Lenny the Wonder Dog. Oh, yeah, right. This is a movie. I did that. I looked at it recently and apparently one of the kids and it was Oscar Isaac.

[B]

Oscar Isaac.

[A]

Who's like a big time movie star now.

[B]

Sure is.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The Betty doesn't talk about Lenny the Wonder. He must have been a kid when he was doing it.

[B]

Yeah, I think you showed me the where. Maybe I even looked it up. But I went home and looked up all your stuff. But yeah, he was a kid for sure. He was a kid. Now he's like. Yeah.

[A]

And he's not like a big grown up movie star.

[B]

Movie star and heartthrob. I'll say, I'll say it.

[A]

He's a heartthrob.

[B]

Heartthrob.

[A]

Well, here's the thing, though. You were a kid actor, weren't you? You were a little kid actor.

[B]

I was a little kid actor, yeah.

[A]

And you have kids.

[B]

And now I'm a heartthrob.

[A]

Yeah, you are a heartthrob. You're a heartthrob. I've hung out with you in the. And there's like, you know, you're catnip.

[B]

That's right. Actual cats.

[A]

You're catnip. They're like, oh, God. And they come over and then, you.

[B]

Know, I mean, it's a, you know, it's. It's. It's iconic, that movie. I mean, it's. It is pretty.

[A]

Just from that movie. There's other movies. That's not the only movie.

[B]

Sure there are, but like, but. But the reason, I think, why it's as consistent and, and. And diverse of. Of an audience of. Of people that will recognize me or you know, come up to me and, and also geographically, it's, it's, you know, that. That is the thing that has the.

[A]

The.

[B]

That's biggest reach. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Undoubtedly. I mean, it's funny.

[A]

Did you ever go through a time when you were kind of like, you didn't want to talk about it?

[B]

I wouldn't say there was a time I didn't want to talk about it. I mean, I definitely had. You know, I went through that. Oh, God, am I going to. Am I going to be this guy? Is this what's happened?

[A]

I did that with Late Night after Late Night. I was like, for about a couple of years, and I was like, hold on a minute. I did do that. That is. That's my thing. I did that thing. I love that thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm gonna reject it. Yeah, yeah. No, it was a successful thing.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

So.

[B]

So I lean. I've. Yeah. I mean, I. Especially as I get older, of course, and I. I have a much greater appreciation for it, but I. But I always sort of did. And, And I think being a kid actor was what really sort of allowed me to, you know, stay in the. In the positive and appreciate the success and. Because, you know, I saw. I had some jobs as a kid that were really great that I thought were going to be. Oh, God, this is going to be that. I did Broadway. I did a TV series that, you know, for Fox at the time, and that there were a couple jobs. I was like, oh, this is, you know, this could be a thing. And they finished. And in the case of the TV show after one season.

[A]

Oh, I've done a few of those.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. And then it sort of goes away. And then I went back to being a kid in New Jersey again. And so was that hard when you're.

[A]

A little kid and then. Cause Hollywood's.

[B]

Yeah, it was weird. And I. Although I will say, like, again, I think it set me up, you know, to have realistic expectations about what a career in show business is. You know, again, like having that, you know, I was able to just, you know, my parents. I was living at my parents. I was a kid. I could. In my. When in my ruts as a kid actor, I could just be a kid. Right. You know, I actually welcomed them to an extent.

[A]

Because you're still living in New Jersey. Right. So it's not like you're in Hollywood going up for pilot season and all.

[B]

That kind of thing. Exactly. Although I begged my mom every year. So we were, you know, I was in Jersey, was a New York kid actor, and there was always a contingent of kids that every February or January, February would go out to la and they'd stay at the Oakwoods in Burbank.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And. And they would go out for pilot season, it was big, big thing, you know, and. And we would still audition for pilots here in New York, but it just wasn't the same, apparently. You know, you had to be out there.

[A]

When we were on the Drew Carey show, there was. Every now and again a kid would come in and play a part and something like that. And I always felt kind of bad for him.

[B]

Yeah, I. I mean, it's weird. Yeah, it's weird. It depends on the parent.

[A]

Not that anyone was mean to them or anything.

[B]

They weren't.

[A]

It's just that it felt like. It's like seeing a kid in a. In a bar or something. Exactly. You know, like. What the.

[B]

That's a great. That's a great analogy. That's really good. I'm going to steal that.

[A]

Sure, help yourself. I probably stole it anyway.

[B]

From me.

[A]

Yeah, I did steal it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And one of the reasons why I wanted to talk to you, Dave, was to apologize for that.

[B]

That's very sad.

[A]

This is the show business. Reach around. This is called How Nice.

[B]

Apology accepted.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

And.

[A]

And so don't ever do it again.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And then become.

[B]

Yeah. And then I'll have to.

[A]

Would you let your kids be actors? You have kids now.

[B]

I'm not as kids. Not as kids. Yeah. I mean, that's the thing. Like I, you know, being a kid actor again, in terms of the preparation and the sort of all that stuff was really, I think, good for me. But also by the time I did graduate high school, I went to college briefly, but by the time I was a young adult, I was, you know, I had done my 10,000 hours. I mean, I had, I had been in the business, you know, I had an agent. I, you know, had been to LA with that show. Like, I had kind of, you know, I was already kind of ahead of all these kids who went to drama school, you know, or whatever.

[A]

And also be emotionally ahead of it as well, because I think the emotions of rejection, I think people really underestimate, you know.

[B]

Still. Yeah, no, still. I mean, it's, I think, I think, if anything, I understand that the understanding that is, it will continue to be a part of, of this career so long as I choose to be in this career, is, is helpful just to have that awareness. It doesn't make the rejection necessary, particularly for a job that you really want or you got close on or whatever. It fudgeing hurts, man.

[A]

It does. But you know what I think is interesting? I always kind of think of the baseball analogy with show business. Like, you know, you have one ball and you have one pitch in 10, and you're a Hall of Famer. So nine of them are going by and you're going to look like a dick. That's true. It's kind of funny because I was talking to someone who is not in show business a while ago, and she said to me, said, you know, I love the work of David E. Kelly. I went, oh, yeah, no great stuff. I mean, he's done amazing stuff. And she said, and the thing is, he never has any failures. And I went, he has as many failures as everybody.

[B]

100%.

[A]

You just don't hear, you don't see him. Because they're failures.

[B]

Because they're failures.

[A]

Yeah, that's it. They're done.

[B]

Yeah, that's so true. It's so true.

[A]

It's kind of like, you know. And I also watch. I don't know if you've seen this. Did you watch Colin Hanks did a documentary about John Candy? Have you seen it?

[B]

I need to see it.

[A]

You do need to see it. Yeah. Did you run in them because you were kind of a kid actor around about that time. Well, Colin, I know as well. Yeah.

[B]

Candy. No, I, although I, I, I auditioned for Uncle Buck. You must have.

[A]

Yeah. You know, the same age as Macaulay Culkin, right? Yeah.

[B]

Yep. Yeah, I knew I would see. And he was a New York actor. Too. I would see Macaulay on auditions a bunch. He. He. I. The.

[A]

You know, I don't want to blow the documentary for it, but it's really good. Colin did a great job.

[B]

Great. And.

[A]

But, you know, there's an interview with Macaulay Culkin, and he comes across as, like, how you really turned out.

[B]

Okay. Right.

[A]

Which is.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I'm sure there was a period. No, there was a period. Of course, we've all watched and, you know, taking it in over the years, and especially as a. As an actor in the business, a kid actor, and knowing him as a kid, not knowing him personally, although we do have a very good friend in common.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I was always curious to see how it would play out and. Yeah. Because how he would. He's huge.

[A]

He was like a massive, biggest movie star in the world when he was, like, massive 8 or something or 10.

[B]

Massive. Yeah. It's crazy. It's crazy. And there was a period, I think, where it was a little. From our vantage point anyway, from what I saw and kind of what I had heard, it was really hard for him. I mean, clearly, professionally, it was hard. He kind of took a step back. He was playing music. He was.

[A]

But he said something that I thought was really interesting about Hollywood, and I thought, oh, my God. I mean, obviously he went through the wringer with it so intensely and at such a young age. But his clarity of vision on it was astonishing. When he said that thing is this thing about. It's always about what's next, what's next, what's next? And it puts you in a constant state of anxiety about what's next. And he said, you can be. And he said, I'm paraphrasing, but he said something like, you could be standing on a red carpet with an Oscar in your hand talking to the people in the line, and they'll say to you, what do you do next? What's next? And it feels like. I remember when I started in late night, one of the first questions I was asked was, do you want to take over for Letterman?

[B]

I'm like, I haven't even started for myself. Yeah, I haven't even started.

[A]

I was like, this is my boss. So it's like someone's saying to you, do you plan on killing the king? I'm like, no, I didn't even think about it. I thought about it a little bit.

[B]

We all did. We all did. Worldwide Pants.

[A]

Worldwide Pants. That's Dave's company. Yeah. And Dave owned the late night show, which you were on a lot yeah.

[B]

Oh, your show.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

You're too much. I think.

[B]

I know. I felt that. Yeah. I felt like by the end, I felt like by the end, you were over it. Me? Me. Not necessarily the show. Not the whole show, not the show, but me. Every time I would come back, yeah. I was like, ah, Banks, maybe I should quit. Should I quit if it means nothing?

[A]

If it means comes back one more time? And I was like. And then I read the prompter and goes, ladies and gentlemen, Jason. Right.

[B]

That's it.

[A]

And I called them that night. It's not, you know, it's funny. The exact opposite of that is true in the sense that, as you go, certainly I don't know anyone else's experience about it, but as I went on with that show, I'd say the last three, four years of it, 90% of the guests were people I'd seen before and I wanted to see again. And every now and again, someone got famous fast and you had to have them on.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But other than that, I was like, you know, people's names would come up, and I go, eh, yeah.

[B]

What about.

[A]

Yeah. Do we have to. Can we say there's a scheduling conflict?

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

It's always a scheduling conflict.

[B]

Always.

[A]

Yeah, I've had a few.

[B]

I almost had one tonight.

[A]

Did you really?

[B]

Yeah, I almost had one. A scheduling conflict. But it opened up. It opened up, and here I am.

[A]

Yeah, it's already on edge, though.

[B]

You got to be on edge. I know, I know. Here I am. Here I am. Did you.

[A]

Did you. Did you. Is that true? Did he really nearly have a schedule? No. So you knew you was an internal scheduling conflict?

[B]

No, I would not. Honestly, I'm thrilled to be reconnected with you. Well. And was so happy to be here and loved that we talked about podcasts for a good half hour and had, you know, certain opinions about that. Meant gave me an impression. A certain impression. At least in terms of your relationship to podcasts.

[A]

Yeah, I know. I freely admit it.

[B]

And then the big reveal.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, I actually do a podcast. And will you be on it?

[B]

And will you be on it?

[A]

Well, here's the thing. This is how I feel about podcasts. I, you know, I have mixed feelings about it, like, every week. I know it's hard every week. Who was I talking to?

[B]

Us. Not everyone's Jason Biggs. You can't always have a chance.

[A]

You can't always have Jason.

[B]

Well, you can.

[A]

Last week's episode, I literally did it. Phoned it in on my phone from my Truck. As I was filming something in Philadelphia on my meal break. And you know what? People are like, oh, that's a good episode.

[B]

This is gonna be your best episode.

[A]

Then why do I even fucking bother?

[B]

Why do I try? Why am I paying for this room? Yeah.

[A]

I got my white chairs here that swivel. I'm like a Bond villain. Like, hello. Oh, by the way. Yeah?

[B]

Am I up for the new Bond? You are. I am.

[A]

And I. This is. They want to announce it on my podcast. I've made myself laugh. The idea of announcing the new Bond on this podcast, that's very satisfying.

[B]

That's great. Great.

[A]

I've just been watching all the old Bond films. I got a new. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

They don't all hold up, do they?

[A]

Some of them, I think, are flat out illegal. I think.

[B]

Can we. Can. I don't. No disrespect to any, but the Roger Moore ones.

[A]

Roger Moore ones. And the Roger Moore ones are weak. But if you go to the Sean Connery ones, there's some really bad behavior there.

[B]

He also did so many of them, too. Like, he almost. He did too many.

[A]

Yeah. Did he?

[B]

I don't know. I feel like.

[A]

I don't know. I think. I don't remember the order. It goes. Roger. Sean Connery. Roger George Lazenby, for one.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

He was a male model.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And he did. On Her Majesty's Secret Service. What happened was that Sean Cornery asked for a million pounds. A million dollars for the movie, which was a lot of money then. And they said, fuck you, and we can get anyone to do this. And they got anyone to do it, and it turned out they couldn't. Then they had to give him a million dollars and he came back. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Brilliant.

[A]

And then Roger Moore did it, and.

[B]

There was someone else in there before. The sort of modern. I consider Pierce Brosnan the first sort of modern day Bond.

[A]

You know, I know Pierce pretty well. Yeah, you know him?

[B]

No, I don't.

[A]

He's awesome.

[B]

He seems like the greatest.

[A]

He's the fucking greatest.

[B]

That's great.

[A]

I went to his. He has this big house in Malibu, and he had a party one night for his 60th birthday. So that's how long ago it was.

[B]

Crazy. He looks good.

[A]

Yeah. No, I mean, He's. He's like 70.

[B]

Something crazy. I know.

[A]

He's like.

[B]

That should be. So.

[A]

I mean. I mean, I'm not particularly gay, but I think I probably would.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know?

[B]

Well, you look great. I mean, you're 84.

[A]

84.

[B]

You look wonderful.

[A]

I moisturize all the time. The longest I go without moisturizing is the podcast. After this, I'll be straight back into a vat.

[B]

A vat of butter.

[A]

But the. I went to a party at his house in Malibu. He's got this fancy gaffer. It actually looks like a Bond villain. Oh, that's cool. It's amazing. And his wife Keely is super cool and quite scary. She's like, boss. She's the boss. Yeah. I mean, I think Pierce would even say that. I mean, if you're on her good side. I've never been on her bad side, but I never want to be on her bad side.

[B]

Right. You don't want to know what it's like.

[A]

I don't want to know what it's like. But she's tough. And we turned up at Piers house, and the Aston Martin for the Bond movie was parked right outside the house. Like, oh, my God. And I said to Piers, that's the Aston Martin for the Bond movie? And he said, yeah. I said, what? And he went, well, Keely makes me park it there. Cause that's the hole for the septic tank. She didn't want the guests seeing it coming in. I was like, if Keely told me to park there, I'd partner as well.

[B]

That's amazing.

[A]

Isn't that great? That's so.

[B]

You know.

[A]

But I feel like I love too.

[B]

That he could have parked any car over. Over it. But he, you know.

[A]

Yeah, I think he's probably got a few cars.

[B]

I'm exactly. I'm certain of it.

[A]

But that's the one. He chose the Aston Martin from the Bond movies over the septic tank hole. It wasn't a hole. I mean, it wasn't like an open sewer. I don't.

[B]

Yeah, no, it was probably just a head of a cover.

[A]

Yeah, it was like a mano cover. But, you know, I didn't smell anything. I don't want works other than just the beauty of Pierce Brosnan himself, who smells really good. Oh, my God.

[B]

As good as I think he does.

[A]

It'S like sort of burnished leather. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, like. Yeah, like masculine but not overpowering.

[B]

But not overpowering. Little like kind of hint of tobacco, maybe.

[A]

Yeah, smoke, but just.

[B]

But not smoke. Not a bad smoke.

[A]

No, no, just like. Like, like tobacco and. And. And leathery and. And maybe shoes.

[B]

Yeah, sure. Leather shoes.

[A]

Yeah, why not?

[B]

But the inside.

[A]

The inside smells inside of the shoe.

[B]

But leather.

[A]

Wait, wait, you're like the guy. New pair of shoes.

[B]

It keeps going, keep going. And you got to cut me off. Cut me off, please.

[A]

But I think that, that. That kind of story, that. That's one of the nice stories that demystified Hollywood for me. And that must have happened to you as well. Like, you. You just see people that you like. You're used to seeing them be big stars, and then they're totally.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When you. Even when you're a little kid.

[B]

Yeah, I had some exposure as a little kid. You know who I worked with as a little kid?

[A]

Santa. Was it Santa?

[B]

Yeah, but he's an.

[A]

Oh, okay. I heard that. But you don't want it to be true.

[B]

It's.

[A]

I know you don't want it to be true.

[B]

I know. That's. That's when I stopped believing. I worked with him when I was. I was like, 18.

[A]

Yeah. Well, that's. Where that's. You stopped to believe in. Wow. Good for you, man. That's. That's a long run. So who are you going to talk about? Yeah.

[B]

Judd Hirsch. Do you know Judd Hirsch?

[A]

I don't know, Judge.

[B]

Okay, so Judd was on his big.

[A]

Met him. But I don't know him.

[B]

I don't know him.

[A]

I don't know. I just remembered I had met him there.

[B]

That's funny.

[A]

I thought, if he sees this, he'll be like, son of a.

[B]

Actually, you. I'm certain. I. For sure, you. You were cbs, right? Yeah, yeah. He was on that show. Numbers on CBS for num. Num.

[A]

3 years. They used to do it, like, num. Three years.

[B]

Exactly, exactly. But that was just one. That was like his. Like, later in his career.

[A]

That sounded like on the other side.

[B]

Yeah. But it was a massive hit. But he. The show that he. Taxi. Have you heard of Taxi?

[A]

Oh, Judd. Harsh. I'm thinking of somebody else. Who was I thinking of? Judd. Somebody else. Judd.

[B]

Oh, one of the Breakfast Club guys. Yeah. That's funny. Judd Nelson.

[A]

Judd Nelson.

[B]

That's what I'm thinking of. No, I'm Judd Nelson.

[A]

No, Judd Hirsch. Of course I know. Yeah, he's Taxi.

[B]

Yeah, Taxi. Dear John.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I did this. This play on Broadway with him. And. And, you know, was. Was totally nervous and. And because it was my first Broadway, my first play, period. But. But. But also working with him, you know.

[A]

It'S a big deal.

[B]

And he. And, yeah, he was doing Dear John at the time, and. But he couldn't have been nicer. He couldn't have been more generous. That's gratifying. And he respected me. Like, he. He didn't he treated. It was me and actually David Krumholtz. I don't know if you know David.

[A]

David Krumholtz. So he was on number.

[B]

So David and Judd.

[A]

He was on the late night show a lot. He was like, you. Krumholtz was. Oh, I was like, krumholtz Biggs. Krumholtz.

[B]

Biggs. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're kind of interchangeable in a lot of ways.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Penis size.

[A]

Okay. Yeah.

[B]

He. It was his first ever job. 13 years old. No, we were 12. I'm three days old and we were 12 years old. He was plucked out of a production of Bye Bye Birdie and Forest Hills Queens. He was just a regular kid in school. But he was so talented. I mean, he is so talented. He's like a savant, that kid. It's crazy, but he was, like, kind of wild and sort of, you know, he needed to be tamed a little bit. But anyway, he. It was me and him and Judd treated us with such respect. And, you know, he didn't like. There was no condescension. There was no impatience, which I Now even. I've worked with kids and I was a kid actor, and I think I have a lot of patience with kid actors. And it's. It's hard to have that. It's hard kid.

[A]

I have kids.

[B]

Yeah. Yes, exactly. So, yeah. But he was just so great and then. But also was. Knew that we were 12 and 13. We turned 13 during that run. And he filled our dressing room with the biggest balloons you could imagine. We couldn't walk into. We had to use a different dressing room. But it was the coolest thing. Like, David and I talk about it to this day. We'll never forget it. Something like that. But. But the point is, you know, that was my first time working with someone who. Who was larger than life in a lot of ways, but who was a star and who sort of. Any sort of preconceived notions I might have had about. About someone like that. You know, it's like, oh, you don't have to be that. That. You don't have to. Not that I even knew, but. And of course, we've seen it. We've seen people who are. You know, they do believe their own.

[A]

Yeah. The.

[B]

And they. You know, they are.

[A]

Did you ever go through that? Did you ever.

[B]

Well, my. My thing. And it's still. I think it still sort of lingers to an extent. I've always had a. I've always been fascinated with fame. And again, I really like not to sound redundant, but I think the fact that I was a kid actor who saw these things go away, had these jobs and then they kind of, you know, I was back to being a regular. I think that really, like, in so many ways shaped me for the better. But. But the thing I've always sort of been fascinated with is.

[A]

That the.

[B]

The people don't want to say no. Right. So I've.

[A]

The famous people.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You get.

[A]

You get you.

[B]

There's not a whole lot of no's, you know, and I should be told no sometimes. And I. And I am, you know, but there's. There's just a. I've gone through periods where there was an. You know, just because of it happening for some. I mean, I've. American pie was. Was 27 years ago, you know, the front door, really. Yeah, yeah. So it's been a. I've been famous for a long time and it's like.

[A]

I think the nature of fame has changed, though.

[B]

Well, it's much more accessible, for starters. It's like anyone.

[A]

And it's much more fragmented. And it's also. There's not as much money in. Used to be, like, if you were famous, there's a pretty decent chance you were making a coin.

[B]

Totally.

[A]

Now you can be famous and like. Yeah, like Instagram famous. Like, I don't think there's any money in that, as far as I know. I'm Instagram famous, so I don't know.

[B]

But shockingly, there is a lot of money.

[A]

Is there?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, well, then maybe I should do it a little more. I should take it serious.

[B]

I mean, it depends on what you want to do. I mean, a lot of it is, you know, just.

[A]

Well, the Kardashian stuff and all that.

[B]

Well, yeah, of course, that's. That's its own category, I think.

[A]

But I mean, fair play, those. They're going to hustling, man.

[B]

They're like, they did it.

[A]

And everything I've heard about them is like, they're on time, they know their lines, they can say hi, they know everybody in the crew, they're professionals and they work well. That's everything.

[B]

It's easy to hate them, but. But, you know, from afar. Yeah, I feel like, you know, that's easy to, I think, do that, but. But I've heard that as well. Yeah, And I love that. Yeah, sure.

[A]

Like, if you. If you show up one time and do the job and that's it.

[B]

Yeah, but don't. If you're not going to. I mean. Yeah. The thing I've always had issues with. And I've been fortunate where I have not seen it too often. I'm sure you've seen it a ton. As a host of your own show is people being so caught up in their own stuff that they are totally disrespectful to everyone else around who are also trying to do a job. And so obviously punctuality is the first thing that comes to mind.

[A]

That's.

[B]

That's right. Like you're doing a show, you have an hour, you have to do it at a certain time. The feed has to go to New York for the night. You've got to. And. And people probably didn't show, you know.

[A]

Are like one in 10 years.

[B]

That's great.

[A]

One in 10 years. And everyone else was on time. One guy.

[B]

Amazing. That's amazing.

[A]

And I never had him back.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

Fuck that guy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yep. I think you know, as his. Yeah, Yeah. I was like, fuck, fuck him.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. 100%. I've been on sets where people are late or won't come out of their trailer or whatever. The thing, the cliche. I don't understand. I don't understand. It's. It's. Is it control? Is it. Is it is. Is it. Is it trying to. Is just being a infantile. Is it throwing a fit? It's a combination. It depends on the person. I've seen it because they're upset at the creative, which. Okay, all right, fine. You need to have a conversation. You need to. You can't get your head around the thing and you want to wait to film it maybe. Okay, fine. I mean, it's the same script as it was when you signed on a couple months ago. Why today are you suddenly having issue with. This is good. We're here. We've been here since 4:30 this morning. Why now? Why now? Everyone's just sitting around. You know, those are the kinds of things that really bother me, you know.

[A]

Well, I think that if you're. If you work. I think that one of the odd things. I was kind of disavowed of this very early on that because I worked in theater in Scotland and, you know, there's no, you know, people. It's a working class situation. Like, you know, no one's getting rich doing it. It's like, it's fun to play dress up with your friends and have an audience in and. And everybody, you know, be drunk and all that kind of stuff. That's how we did it.

[B]

Of course.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Scotland.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

It's how I Did it.

[A]

To be fair, there's a lot of people out that didn't do it that way, but you know, good actors. But it was very much. It was run like a place of work. It was a place of work. So I never understood. Remember, they used to do this. I don't know if they still do it because I haven't talked to anyone like this in a long time. But show business journalists, there used to be a kind of type of them that. You know what I mean? You used to have to always talk. I don't feel like that happened. Am I one of them? Fuck, am I a show business journalist? Like, I'm somebody you have to talk to if you've got something coming out.

[B]

I mean, fuck, that's why I'm here.

[A]

That's why I quit.

[B]

It looks like you're just running it back.

[A]

I'm just doing it again.

[B]

Some things never change me up. You can take the. You can take the host out of the.

[A]

Show business journalist out of the. Anyway, I remember they used to always say, did you. Did you have fun doing the job? You're doing the show. Did you guys have great. Like, I remember when we were doing the Drew Carey show, people said, you guys must have had so much fun. I bet they said it. But the American Pie says, you guys must have so much fun. I'm like, sometimes, yeah, sometimes it's work.

[B]

It's work.

[A]

You turn up, it's early, you've got a hangover or some other form of illness. But usually mine was hangover, hangover.

[B]

And.

[A]

You have got a. You got a days where. And sometimes you go on with people and sometimes you don't. Sometimes other people are dicks and sometimes they're nice. I could never understand particularly.

[B]

I mean, that show ran for how many years did you.

[A]

Drew carey show, yeah. 10 years.

[B]

Oh, my God. So, yeah, 10 years.

[A]

I mean, it becomes kids getting born. You know, people live, people die. Life's change. I mean, it was like. It was crazy.

[B]

I'm sure there was a lot of love. It was a family, I'm sure, in a lot of ways. And I'm sure there was also. And also in family, there's also tension and all kinds. 10 years. It's a long time. A long time, man. But it. But I'm sure there were days. I'm sure there were episodes that are just blurry for you that. Well, I don't know. Were you. Were you drinking at the time?

[A]

No, no, I'm sober.

[B]

Okay. So I. But I wonder if there's like, you know, there are just. Because it's just like you showed up, you did the thing became a job, and for whatever reason that week, there wasn't maybe anything particularly memorable that happened. And it's just like. It's just you couldn't maybe recall.

[A]

Right. That Late Night's full of that.

[B]

Yeah, of course. Of course. Way more than Drew Carey.

[A]

Late Night.

[B]

Fuck, man.

[A]

I've got like. Like I've seen whole episodes of like, no Recollection.

[B]

Zero. Yeah. Wow. Wow.

[A]

Like, I didn't even know I'd. I'd met Judge Hirsch. I think he was on Late Night.

[B]

Well, that's why I was saying Numbers was on cbs. I'm sure he came on the show.

[A]

Yeah, I know. He was definitely on the show. Yeah. I just can't remember it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's a reflection on him.

[B]

Did you call him Judd Nelson on the show, though? That's what I wondered.

[A]

Maybe that's why he was only on one side.

[B]

You were great in the. Tell me about being in the Brat Pack.

[A]

Yeah, he's like.

[B]

He's like 87.

[A]

Yeah, no, that's.

[B]

That.

[A]

Do you know what he was good at? Do you remember that movie, Ordinary People?

[B]

Oh, the recently Fablemans.

[A]

No, I didn't see the Fabelmans.

[B]

He got nominated for an Oscar. Small. He was brilliant. But it was a good movie. Sorry, I interrupted.

[A]

What movie? No, please, interrupt away. I talk too much. Anyway, I mean, it's. It's Judd Hirsch. He got a. He got an Oscar nomination for the Fable you were going to tell me about.

[B]

Yeah, the Fable is amazing. Ordinary People. He also got a nomination.

[A]

I know who the movie is.

[B]

Yeah, which one? The.

[A]

The one where Jeff Goldblum saves Earth and he plays Jeff Goldblum's dad.

[B]

The Fly. No, no, of course not.

[A]

What's the Save Earth in the Fly? No, The Day After Tomorrow or.

[B]

Oh, Independence Day.

[A]

Independence Day. It's Independence Day. Yeah, that is right. He plays Jeff Goldblum. Jeff Goldblum's that. And Jeff Goldblum is like, I don't know if I should save Earth. And he's like, you should save Earth. But Dad. And he's like, yeah, save Earth.

[B]

Come on.

[A]

That's right. And he's great in that.

[B]

He's great.

[A]

You know that speech, that Bill Pullman.

[B]

Pullman, yeah.

[A]

I used to always do that, too. Bill Paxton died sadly, but who was also meant to be a great guy.

[B]

What I heard, too.

[A]

I heard about Bill Paxton. He used to walk around when he was traveling, like in airports. And stuff. If people recognized him, he'd give them $20. Did you hear that? No, no, no.

[B]

That's.

[A]

I don't know if that's true. It's like if they come over and go, hey, you built PAXLEY well. Yep. $20. Hey, give him $20. Isn't that great? That's the best thing I've ever. Isn't that fucking great? I love it.

[B]

I hope it's true. I'm gonna go with true.

[A]

Yeah, let's go with true. Cause, I mean, a much beloved character. I never had a chance to meet him unless he was on Late Night Live. Right.

[B]

I'm sure he was. Maybe I did. Oh, that's funny. Yeah. So good. But how endearing.

[A]

It's kind of great, isn't it? Bill Pullman.

[B]

Pullman, yeah.

[A]

Who gives the best Halloween parties in the Hollywood Hills? Oh, yeah, Yeah. I lived in the Hollywood hills for, like 20 years, and Bill Pullman lived up the street. And at Halloween, I guess his kids are probably growing up now, but he used to have this thing where you go into his. He had a big yard and there was a scary way for the little kids to go. And the ghosts would go woo. And stuff. And then a really scary way if you wanted to, like, the adults go. And, like, really scary stuff would happen. And he, like, did it all out. And he'd be sitting there like, movie starring right at the front and giving candy. Yeah. He was amazing.

[B]

And people.

[A]

I think that it's such an odd thing that. It's one of the things I loved about Hollywood. Is it demystified that there were people like that who were just guys in the street? A guy who lived in the street, and he was a nice guy and he had a cool thing at Halloween and he, you know, had problems with his pool and all that kind of stuff.

[B]

Totally.

[A]

You know, I mean, it was so. It felt so normal. And then you would, like, read, you know, it was like, oh, the Hollywood cocktail party set. I'm like, I don't think I ever went to a cocktail party. You know. They have them. Yeah.

[B]

No. They don't exist.

[A]

No. Thanks. Because I thought maybe they were having them.

[B]

No. I wanted to make a vendo. I went to them almost every night.

[A]

Yeah. Say things like, the Hollywood community. And I'm like, there's no fucking community in Hollywood.

[B]

There's zero.

[A]

Everybody's out for themselves. It's a transactional neighborhood.

[B]

Transactional. That's exactly it. That's exactly it. The currency is fame. And, like, it's very transactional and everyone's out for themselves.

[A]

That's.

[B]

That's exactly. It's why I left.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, were you kids very young when you left?

[B]

Sid, my oldest was just born. Was just born. Yeah, he was. He was born.

[A]

Was it about the kids or was it about.

[B]

Yeah, kind of. I mean, I had. I had sort of been wanting to. My wife is not from East Coast. She's from. She grew up in Phoenix and. And San Diego. Divorced parents, went to ucla, Met her in la.

[A]

She's a West coaster.

[B]

She's a West coaster now. She's not. I mean, she is a New Yorker. And I kind of always knew. I was like, you know, but she was like, I've been there. I like, she came. I did a play when we first met. We came for like a two months or something and rented a little place downtown and she liked it, but it was. She was. It was more tourist than resident, you know.

[A]

There's something about living in New York, though.

[B]

It hits different.

[A]

It does different. It just comes at you a different way and it's just. It's great. I love this.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, me too. But it's, you know, I had been kind of itching. I had this weird thing, you know, I'm sure maybe you found this about la. Like, we might have even talked about this where, you know, I went out to LA and was like, one day, woke up and I'd been there 10 years. I was like, wait, I live in L. A? Like, I. The whole. For 10 years I was like, I'm not. I'm. I live like almost. Not even I live here. Like, it. Just being from the east coast and given the nature of our job and Hollywood and the sort of sheen that it has and the perfect weather and it's just, for me was just like this place that still, even while living there, kind of existed in this fictional sort of land.

[A]

I know what you mean. It's crazy.

[B]

And so I had always thought, like, oh, I'll, you know, we get married, my wife will be from the east coast. Or I just kind of life in my head when I would see the future and playing out, and particularly with kids, I was like, oh, that's. I'll be in. I'll be back East. And then suddenly we're, you know, we've. We have a kid that's born, we're living in la. But by that point we had actually gotten. I was doing Orange is the New Black here, and so we were spending a lot of time.

[A]

It was a big show as well.

[B]

It was a big show.

[A]

Yeah, we were good in that show.

[B]

Thanks, man. Yeah, it was really a lot of fun.

[A]

Yeah, it's a good show.

[B]

Yeah, it was the second show ever on Netflix.

[A]

Yeah, I remember it was right at the start of Netflix. Yeah.

[B]

And I. So we'd gotten a place. We had a place. We bought a little place. And so we were kind of back and forth a little bit. And so that's when she started anyway, to kind of really appreciate it. But still. Still not necessarily want to be here.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And then. Yeah. And then I came to do a play, and it was while I was here during that play, something for her clicked. She had. We had the baby. She had the baby. And for her, it just felt like, yeah, she envisioned. She thought her life would be easier, and now it's all that we know. But raising kids in New York. And I was like, I think so, too. And it sounds crazy to a lot of people who don't live in New York. People are like, how do you raise your kids in New York?

[A]

To us, New York's like a time in la. In one respect is that people who visited for an afternoon think they know it.

[B]

That's true.

[A]

It's not like that, what you see and how it becomes two different things.

[B]

But I will say, yeah, yeah. And, you know, we had Sid there for a couple months, and it was just like, even those couple months, just strapping this baby into the back seat into a hot, hot car and driving, and you can't. Screaming in the back an hour of traffic to get to the thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's wild. And we were just like, oh, my God. And anyway, we both had our reasons, but for me, since I'm on the podcast and my wife isn't, she's actually.

[A]

Next week.

[B]

She's next. Coming next week.

[A]

Next week.

[B]

That's amazing. That's amazing. Way funnier than me.

[A]

Does she have a podcast?

[B]

She has had multiple podcasts.

[A]

All right.

[B]

She's had different incarnations of a podcast.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And. But currently is. Is. Does not have a pod. It's hard work. I. It is hard, hard work, man. I. I've always. I've flirted with, like. I love chatting and. Yeah. Seeing people. And I'm inquisitive, I like to think. But I. But it is. It's. It's hard.

[A]

It's just relentless.

[B]

It doesn't stop.

[A]

It just doesn't stop. But I don't mind it as long as it's only once a week and I can do it from my car. If I have to.

[B]

Yeah. I guess you've settled into a thing where, you know, I mean, I. I.

[A]

Feel like, in all honesty, I kind of feel like the people who know about this podcast or know about or who want to see it will find it. Yeah, I don't do a ton of promotion for it. Yeah, I. I'm. I have a very. I'm very like you with fame. I'm very cautious about it. I think you can. You can have way too much of it. And again, it's. Can really tip your life out of equilibrium and just. Just enough so that the people that want to see you know where you are, and then that's. That's enough. I mean, I like. I like the theaters to be full when I do stand up, but the theaters don't have to be huge. Just big enough. Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So anyway, you were saying you came. You came here and to New York.

[B]

But also, you know, those last couple years in LA for me were. Were really unhealthy. That's how I was drinking a ton and just like. And I was very. And I isolated a lot and it's easy to isolate in L. A. So easy. Alone in my car for chunks of the day. And you get to Beautiful house. Beautiful house up in the hills. But you get up there and you're like, I'm not going anywhere now.

[A]

Why you have to drive for 20 minutes to get that store. Yeah.

[B]

I'm home and I'm drinking, and I just really. It was. It just was. And, you know, my career at the. Just, you know, I was like, oh, what? It was just a. Yeah. I was not in a great place. And so New York, for me, it's a bit of a geographic. I know, but in the back of my head, it's not like I was. I knew that, you know, you can't. Wherever you go, there you are. I knew that. I expected that, But I also expected the energy and the humanity of New York to help me on my journey and did continues to. To this day. I totally agree.

[A]

I feel like geographics, particularly if you're talking like, someone like me who, like, I got sober, you know, and when I. And people who were also sober would say, you know, oh, it's a geographic. If you go there. And I'm like, geographics work a little bit. Sometimes they work a little bit. I mean, it's not gonna solve all your problems. But I went. Like, when I left la, I went to Scotland because I didn't know where to go. I went to Scotland for. We were There for like five, six years.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

While my youngest went through elementary school, but then as he's coming up to high school, I'm thinking, go to high school. And he's got to go to high school in America, like his brother. And he's like everyone in the family. And we were Americans. And also, I wasn't sitting right for me being there either. America, particularly New York. I love when people not. I love it. But you ever hear people say, particularly Europeans will say, yeah, I don't really like America, but I like New York. I go, well, you know, that's. That's America.

[B]

Sure is.

[A]

It's America as you can get. Really? It's very America.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

But, yeah, but I Hear you on LA, I went for two weeks and I was there 23 years. There you go.

[B]

Yeah, we did talk about this. I remember you say, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's crazy.

[A]

I woke up, I had two kids, I had been divorced and remarried and I was a fucking vegan with a cat. I had a cat. Like, I turned up there, I kind of roast about from the old country, and I woke up and I was a vegan who moisturized with a cat.

[B]

Your cat's a big fan of me.

[A]

Yeah, I know. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Big fan.

[A]

Yeah. Are you a vegan?

[B]

No. No.

[A]

Not for you?

[B]

No.

[A]

I'm not either anymore. I was for a bit.

[B]

You really were. You weren't vegan?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I was vegan for, like four years. But what happened was I lived in la. It wasn't just that. I'm actually a bit scared to say that I'm not a vegan because, like, when vegans who are still vegans here, you're no longer a vegan, you're ending up. That's when they got a taste for blood.

[B]

Really? Really. That's it. That's when they'll eat meat.

[A]

That's when they'll eat meat. That's when the blood lust is up on them.

[B]

Ah.

[A]

What? I mean, it's like, look, I. I did it for a long time and I'm not. It did me great. I loved it. Yeah.

[B]

But health was good. Like.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Brought down cholesterol, all that stuff. But I. You know, and maybe I'll go back to it. Never say never. But it's not like, when I started eating meat again, I thought I was gonna get drunk. Oh, wow. I associated it with, oh, wow. How about that? Yeah. It was like, yeah, I'll get drunk now.

[B]

But I didn't, thank God.

[A]

Yeah. You don't get drunk from meat, as it turns out.

[B]

No meat sweats.

[A]

Different category.

[B]

Slightly different. Same with.

[A]

Different. The way I drank. You'd have to eat a lot of fucking meat, I think, to really have it land. But it wasn't the thing. So you came in New York.

[B]

Yeah, so we came back.

[A]

Now we were talking, because now you're not, you're not just an actor now. You've directed your first movie as well, which is a real, that's a real change. That's when you're a big, big kid now.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, it was. As you know, it's a whole different set of muscles and it's a whole different set of expectations placed on you. And it's scary. And I've always had, I've always been a bit afraid. Again, I think this goes back to me being a kid actor. I've known for a very long time what my strengths are. I know where I can succeed. I've succeeded in doing it since I was a little kid. And consequently it feels safe there and familiar. And I've done very well, sure. But I've always wanted to direct. I've always thought I could do it. I've seen other people do it. And I'm like, I, I think I could contribute some way, you know, certainly work with actors and, and, but I was afraid. I was afraid also opportunity, you know, you don't. It's, it's, it's very hard, particularly now.

[A]

It's just, It's a weird, weirdly hard.

[B]

Yeah. To get anything made. But, but so opportunity, obviously, but also fear. I think, like, I wasn't even really trying to make my, my own opportunity in any way. I'm also not a writer at least. Maybe fear is holding me back from that, but I don't, Yeah, I, I just knew I could, Thought I could contribute as a director somehow.

[A]

So what did you do? What's the movie?

[B]

So it's called. We changed the title. It's now called Untitled Home Invasion Romance.

[A]

That's a good title.

[B]

That's the title of the movie. And it's basically I, I, I play a commercial actor in New York.

[A]

Oh, so you're in the movie.

[B]

I'm in the movie as well. Which you've. We talked about this a little bit.

[A]

I directed a movie that was in. And that was the biggest mistake I made. Directing a movie is putting me in it. No, seriously. I was just, I feel like as a director, I could have done a much better job if I wasn't dealing with number one in the call sheet, who was Also me. Right.

[B]

Who would never come out of his trailer because he had concerns with the director.

[A]

This is the case. He came out of his trailer too much. He's the opposite, anyway. So. Yeah, you put yourself in the movie.

[B]

Yeah, I was in it as well. And that's how it actually originally came about. I mean, I had been talking with my agents and managers about wanting to direct, and they had an eye open for opportunities. And this came across my agent's desk, this script just for me to be in.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And a little indy. And he read it and he said. He, you know, he sent it to me. He was like, I think you'll like this. It's. It's offered to you to. To be in, but. But I also think you'll. You'll want to direct this one. It feels like. Like maybe this could be the one. And it was sort of open.

[A]

Agent really knows who you are then.

[B]

Agent's great. I have to say, he was right. I read it. I was like, yeah, I think I can. I think I see this. I think I can do something with this. Let's. Let's see if we can get it made, you know, and we were able to get it made. You know, I have a producer that I worked with who, you know, got the money, and we were shooting in under a year from the time it came across my desk. So it was. I'm incredibly grateful for the opportunity. It was a really hard shoot. It was a really.

[A]

I've never been on one.

[B]

That's not. I know, I know. This was. Obviously, it was a new role. Obviously there were bigger, newer responsibilities, harder decisions to make, decisions to make.

[A]

Period decisions to make. I know, it's weird. I was shocked when I did it. The very first experience I had directing a movie was actually a set of stills we were doing for Fame album covers.

[B]

Oh, that's funny, right? And even right away, you must have been like, oh, it's up to me to decide what.

[A]

And what happened was, I was in it. So I said to the ad, after we'd been shooting for about an hour, I went, how much fucking longer are we doing this? And he said, whenever you are finished, Gavnar. And I went, oh, I have to say that it's time to stop. And I was like, oh, my God.

[B]

Yeah, that is perfect. That's fucking perfect. I had moments like that as well. I totally had moments like that. That's great. Yeah, it was a trip. It was surreal in that regard. But also, you know, I found my legs, got my sea legs, and I got more confident as the shoot went on, of course.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But, yeah, there was a lot of fear around taking a leap like that. I was really. And look, I was able to zoom out. Of course it's trite, but, like. Yeah, the things you're scared of are the things that are going to, you know, be big for you and you've overcome them and all the things. All the things you got to do it. Yeah, I knew that, but it still doesn't, you know, you still. I was still afraid and. And like, it's a. It was a big leap and.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. And anyway.

[A]

You like the movie?

[B]

Yeah, I. I do like the movie and I'm. I'm. It's, you know, hard. It's so hard.

[A]

I mean, if you've been in the edit and the dub and all that.

[B]

Stuff and you're in a vacuum and then you. I'm. I'm only now. I mean, we did some test audience stuff and. But that's, you know, when you're editing and you do the test screenings, it's. It's to get critic. So it's like you're just getting this. I know it's so hard, but you're. It's helpful. It's. It was mostly helpful.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But it was also, you know, it's not like I was taking it and people laughing and. And it's in the way that I was.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, it was a laughing with an asterisk, you know, and coming back at you and saying, well, this was what I didn't like about it. And anyway, I digress. It was. I'm very close to it still. And we're only now kind of having some bigger screenings and stuff, and it's been playing really well, and that's. And. And I feel a bit of relief in that. And so I can now sort of take a step back and kind of.

[A]

I don't think, you know, for a while anyway.

[B]

I don't. I won't.

[A]

I think that. I mean, that movie that I was talking to you about, I directed that movie and I was a dick about that movie.

[B]

How so?

[A]

Because I didn't like it when it first came out. You know, I thought, this fucking movie. I don't like it. And it wasn't particularly successful. It did okay, but it wasn't great. And I was a dick about it. And I kind of said, ah, this movie sucks. I even wrote it down and now I look at it and go, that's not a bad movie. Fuck was that?

[B]

I was hard on Myself.

[A]

Yeah. I was hard on the other people who worked their asses off in the movie as well. That's what I was really a dick about. I'm like, these people really worked hard on this, and they did the job I asked them to do, and some of them were great in the movie. And I was like, oh, I should maybe shut up about that movie. Once you make it, I think you have to shut up about it, which is weird because you have to promote it.

[B]

But I think that's great advice. I don't even know if you realize you just gave me some advice and I'm taking it.

[A]

Yeah. Well, I feel like after about 10 years, you'll know if.

[B]

If it's any good.

[A]

If you like.

[B]

If I like it? Yeah, if I like it.

[A]

If it was what you wanted to make. Yeah. Because, I mean, for about 10 years, I was a dick about that movie. And then people would say to me how much they liked the movie, and.

[B]

I'd be like, yeah, well, I wonder.

[A]

And I would take away their pleasure.

[B]

Their pleasure. Right, right, right, right. I.

[A]

So I have to. I've still.

[B]

I wonder, though, is it. Was it because, like, you know, you had. Because I have in my head still, you know, it's. We shot it a year ago. You know, the. The bad days, the. The Shoulda, woulda, coulda's. The.

[A]

The. Oh, this is.

[B]

I. I needed that or, you know, that day. The things that went wrong are the things that sort of weigh more heavily. And so when I. Yeah, nobody see the movie. Nobody knows about it, but I see it and I go, oh, it could have this. This is. This is what. It's in my head. It's supposed to be something else.

[A]

That's what I did, too.

[B]

And. And so you get more critical of it and. And you. Yeah, you. What's the word I'm looking for anyway? Yeah. You make excuses for it and you're kind of like, well, it's.

[A]

The thing about it is it helped me a lot, though, later on, because when I first directed and I was like, oh, I have to be on time and on budget and all that stuff. And now when I'm making stuff and, you know, the thing I'm working on right now, which you were very kindly part of, and we can't really talk about it right now, but I don't worry about it being on time and on budget, and it drives everybody. I'm like, no, no, we'll wait until we've done it, and then it's done. Well, we'll Go into overtime. Well, that's a you problem. I don't care. Unless it's somebody coming to fire me. It's like, you guys want me to do a job, I'm doing the job. And if it costs a little extra money because I don't think anyone. I think it was, I can't remember, Guy McIlwain, I think, or somebody who said to me, no one ever went to see a movie because it was on time and on budget. It's like, you want to go and see that movie? Well, was it. Did they make their budget? It's like, who cares? Yeah, that's an inside baseball thing. Nobody cares.

[B]

That's great. I love that. Yeah.

[A]

So go over budget. Swans.

[B]

Where were you a year and two months ago?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. So anyway, it's. Yeah. Hopefully it'll have some sort of life. I mean, now, you know, we, we. Now the markers of success are also different. Right.

[A]

So.

[B]

So, you know, we're, we're hoping to get it on people's TVs, which is sad in a way because, you know, I. This, it's the way it works. It's a comedy and I, I've had some big screen audiences watch it and it is exponentially.

[A]

It's always better in the movie theory.

[B]

You know, with any movie, any movie. But, you know, we kind of know how it's going to play and that would be a success if so. And so streams it and it hits the top. Like that's now what success is.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And, you know, anyway, I'm, I am to come back to the question, do I like it? You're right, I don't know. And it'd be interesting to see in 10 years what I feel about it.

[A]

I feel like it. But no, I mean, I haven't talked to you about it, but I'm cautiously optimistic. Here's the, here's the big question. Would you direct again?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, well, then you like it, Then you made a good.

[B]

Yeah, I guess. Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, I'll tell you, like, there were. There were. Yeah. And it. And again, it was. There were, there were. There were issues on this movie that were totally avoidable. I'm sure every, every movie, every job, there's always. Of course, it's not unique. I'm not unique in that way. But yeah, it was just really, really hard and I still came out of it. The headline being I would do this again. I think I might try to give myself a smaller part, if any.

[A]

If I was to do it again, I would not be in it. Yeah. I mean, it's 20 years since I made that movie and I'm about ready to direct another one.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But only if I'm not in it. Yeah, that would, that would absolutely be. I'll do it. Our role. So I'd like you to play.

[B]

That's sweet.

[A]

It's the story of a young Scotsman. Yep.

[B]

Great. Great. I mean, great. Oh my God.

[A]

It's like you're in it already.

[B]

Come on.

[A]

I, I, Yeah, I think I, I would like to do it again, but it's, I, I hear you on it. It's a mixed bag.

[B]

It really is. It really is. And, and yeah, also, also, when, you know, it was a smaller indie and time is so valuable, of course. And, and you know, I'm having to run back and check playback, you know, I didn't do it every take. Obviously. I kind of had a sense of, eh, we need another one, let's just go again or whatever. But, you know, that takes time and it's, it's. Yeah, yeah. I don't know that I would, but I loved it. I loved working with. The reason the real highlight for me, I liked shot listing that was totally new. I was scared about that. Had a DP who had some brilliant ideas and that was cool. And I learned so much. And I loved editing. Editing was amazing. I, yeah, it's amazing. Loved it.

[A]

I had a great editor change the movie.

[B]

I mean, we did. We did. Yeah. And we. On the daily, you know, and, and the music, the score, it just post production was really. I had a sense that I would enjoy it, but I enjoyed it way more than I. Yeah, no, it's right. Yeah. But, but working with the actors, the other actors.

[A]

What about directing theater? Have you done that?

[B]

No, I haven't. This is the only thing I've directed, but I would love to direct theater.

[A]

See, I think if you're interested in.

[B]

Directing actors, I think because that's more pure. Yeah.

[A]

Also, they tend to be more actory actors in the theater, for better or for worse. Yeah, I know, but. No, but they come out of their trailers, though.

[B]

They sure do.

[A]

Because there's a whole line around the block waiting to take the part.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, I would, I would love to.

[A]

I would love to. I think I'd love you do it.

[B]

Thanks, man. Yeah, I, I want to see you do it again.

[A]

You didn't see that movie I'm talking about.

[B]

Nope.

[A]

It's not that bad. It's not that bad. It's not.

[B]

You say that now, 20 years later.

[A]

I'm like, it's not that bad. I was pretty thin in it.

[B]

I look good.

[A]

Yeah. Look good. It was 20 years ago. I was. You know. Anyway, we're done here.

[B]

All right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But great.

[B]

Always a pleasure, man.

[A]

Oh, that's terrific. So, obviously now I'm gonna quit doing a podcast. Cause this was it.

[B]

It doesn't get better.

[A]

Doesn't. I mean, it might, but only if you come back.

[B]

If I come back.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which I think we should do. Jason Biggs, Episode two, the Revenge of Curly's Gold.

[B]

Great.

[A]

That would be good.

[B]

I'm in.

[A]

All right. Get out of here.

[B]

Yes, sir.