Jen Statsky

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Joy" Featuring Jen Statsky on "Joy" Hosted by Craig Ferguson

Release Date: April 15, 2025 | Episode: Jen Statsky | Host: Craig Ferguson

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Introduction

In this insightful episode of "Joy," hosted by storied late-night talk host Craig Ferguson, the conversation delves deep into the intricacies of creating joy in a seemingly chaotic world. Craig sits down with the talented Jen Statsky, a prominent figure in contemporary television writing and showrunning. Their discussion navigates through the challenges of the entertainment industry, the evolution of comedy, and the delicate balance between personal well-being and professional success.

Background of Jen Statsky

Jen Statsky enters the conversation as a seasoned writer and showrunner, renowned for her work on groundbreaking shows like "Hacks," "The Good Place," and "Parks and Recreation." Her journey began in the vibrant world of late-night television, landing her first writing job on "Late Night with Jimmy Fallon" in 2011. This foundational experience set the stage for her illustrious career in comedy and television production.

Transition from Writing to Showrunning

Jen reflects on her progression from a staff writer to the helm of her own show. She emphasizes the stark contrast between writing content and managing a large creative team:

"Showrunning is like managing a 250-person corporation. It's a skill set entirely different from writing comedy." ([38:05])

She discusses the steep learning curve involved in balancing creative vision with managerial responsibilities, highlighting the emotional and logistical challenges that come with leading a successful television project.

Challenges in Late Night Hosting

Craig Ferguson shares his experiences and insights from his tenure in late-night television. He candidly talks about the relentless pace and the psychological toll it takes:

"Every day, five days a week, it's about keeping me in a good mood. Nobody wants to bring me any bad news." ([22:15])

Jen relates by comparing her own experiences in high-pressure environments, drawing parallels between late-night hosting and showrunning in terms of creative and personal demands.

Evolution of Comedy and Taboo Subjects

A significant portion of their discussion centers on the shifting landscape of comedy, especially regarding what subjects are considered taboo. Jen delves into how "Hacks" addresses contemporary issues by portraying comedians navigating the fine line between humor and sensitivity:

"We wanted to have each character be both right and wrong because that's so much more interesting." ([10:29])

Claire explores the generational shifts in comedic norms, debating whether modern comedy imposes more restrictions on content and how creators like Jen adapt to these changes without stifling creativity.

Creative Collaboration and Team Dynamics

Jen underscores the importance of collaboration in her work, attributing much of her success to strong partnerships:

"I'm never doing it alone. I'm doing it with Paula Chia and never feel alone." ([42:40])

She discusses the dynamics within her writing team, emphasizing the need for maintaining personal relationships amidst the pressures of producing quality content. This collaboration fosters a supportive environment that nurtures creativity and resilience.

Coping with Success and Mental Health

Addressing the interplay between success and mental well-being, both Craig and Jen share personal anecdotes and coping mechanisms:

"Success catnip for demons. Whatever darkness you have, it gets drawn out." ([44:24])

Jen opens up about her turbulent upbringing and how her drive for academic and professional excellence served as a coping mechanism. She highlights the ongoing struggle to balance ambition with personal mental health, advocating for supportive structures within creative industries.

Personal Insights and Future Plans

Jen discusses her reluctance to transition into performance roles, preferring the creative control and order that writing provides over the unpredictability of acting. She reflects on her career trajectory, expressing contentment with her current path and a focus on nurturing her existing projects:

"I feel like I'm on a treadmill, and stopping is the real challenge." ([48:02])

Looking ahead, Jen expresses no immediate plans to branch into novel writing but remains open to future creative endeavors that resonate with her passion for storytelling.

Notable Quotes

• On Showrunning Challenges:

  "Showrunning is like managing a 250-person corporation. It's a skill set entirely different from writing comedy." ([38:05])

• On Comedy and Sensitivity:

  "We wanted to have each character be both right and wrong because that's so much more interesting." ([10:29])

• On Personal Coping Mechanisms:

  "Success catnip for demons. Whatever darkness you have, it gets drawn out." ([44:24])

• On Collaboration:

  "I'm never doing it alone. I'm doing it with Paula Chia and never feel alone." ([42:40])

Conclusion

This episode of "Joy" offers a profound exploration of the intersections between creativity, personal well-being, and the demands of the modern entertainment industry. Through candid dialogue, Craig Ferguson and Jen Statsky provide listeners with a nuanced understanding of what it takes to find and maintain joy amidst professional pressures and personal challenges. Jen's experiences as a successful showrunner illuminate the complexities of leadership in creative fields, while her reflections on comedy and personal growth inspire aspiring writers and creators to navigate their paths with resilience and authenticity.

For those seeking inspiration and a deeper appreciation of the behind-the-scenes dynamics in television production, this conversation serves as both a guide and a testament to the enduring pursuit of joy in one's professional and personal life.

Transcript

[Savannah Guthrie]

Every morning brings a fresh new energy.

[Jen Statsky]

And no matter what the day holds.

[Savannah Guthrie]

We come to the Today show for all of it.

[Craig Ferguson]

We get the best start to the day because we started together. Watch the Today show weekdays at 7am on NBC.

We're leaving today and entering a world of Cinderella, Castle, sightseeing, Tron Light cycling, jungle cruise, punning Pirate, swashbuckling, Everest, climbing, Dapper Danning, danning, Danning Soren Su Boring fireworks, show of I'm not crying, you're crying. World of Favorites for whatever you love, infinite worlds await at the most magical place on Earth. Walt Disney World Resort.

[Savannah Guthrie]

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[Craig Ferguson]

Are you still quoting 30 year old movies? Have you said cool beans in the past 90 days? Do you think Discover isn't widely accepted? If this sounds like you, you're stuck in the past. Discover is accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide, and every time you make a purchase with your card, you automatically earn cash back. Welcome to the now it pays to Discover. Learn [e-mail] credit card based on the February 2024 Nielsen report this is me, Craig Ferguson.

I'm inviting you to come and see my brand new comedy hour. Well, it's actually, it's about an hour and a half and I don't have an opener because these guys cost money. But what I'm saying is I'll be on stage for a while. Anyway, come and see me live on the Pants on Fire tour in your region. Tickets are on sale now and we'll be adding more as the Tour continues throughout 2025 and beyond. For a full list of dates, go to thecraigfergusonshow.com See you on the road, my dears. My name is Craig Ferguson. The name of this podcast is Joy. I talk to interesting people about what brings them happ. Hello my dears. Now look for my money. One of the best shows on TV right now is a show called Hacks, which is on HBO or Max or whatever they call it now. But it's a great show. It's co created by my guest today, who's a fascinating and very, very clever individual by the name of Jen Statsky, ENJ. You see, that's how they do it in TV. You just go, 5, 4, 3, 2, and then you don't see anything else in the one. I haven't watched on TV in ages, though. You still work in TV? Do they still do that? Oh, no. You do single camera, so I do.

[Jen Statsky]

Single camera, so there's no countdown. But I'm trying to remember because I started in Late Night and I think we had a countdown. I think we had the 5, 4, 3, 2.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah, you were on Jimmy's show for. That was your first gig, wasn't it?

[Jen Statsky]

That was my first job. That was my first writing job, Late Night with Jimmy Fallon back in 2011.

[Craig Ferguson]

So you were. You were doing that at the same time I was doing Late Night. Oh, yeah, we're both.

[Jen Statsky]

Did you ever watch her show from Late Night? I did watch your show. Yes, of course. You are an excellent interviewer, which I'm sure you've been told many times over the years.

[Craig Ferguson]

Thank you. I feel like that it is an odd, weird skill. Did you ever see the movie Demolition Man? It's one of Sandra Bullock's early movies.

[Jen Statsky]

No, I never did.

[Craig Ferguson]

There's a Sandra Bullock movie called Demolition man and I call it Sandra Bullock Movie. It's a Sylvester Stallone movie. And he. Sylvester Stone and Wesley Snipes, and he gets cryogenically frozen and then has to catch a criminal in the future. A lot of movies were like that back in the day. But during his cryogenics, the computer implanted in his head that he knew how to knit. It was a joke in the film. And I. And he was mystified by that. And that's like my skills for interviewing. I have no idea where I came about that. I certainly didn't study for it or have any academic training, but I feel like I can do it. I think you're right.

[Jen Statsky]

Yeah, you definitely can. Did you find, like, before you became a host that, like, in. In conversations, like, you're good at, like, being interested in people and asking them questions like, did it feel natural vis a vis you moving through the world that that kind of was a skill?

[Craig Ferguson]

No, not at all. In fact, I'm quite misanthropic. I am. I'm quite shy and. But aggressively shy. So I don't just like go, oh, oh. I'm likely gonna go, ah, keep away from me. That kind of shy. You know what I mean? I suspect that, you know, I write a lot and I know that that is what you do a lot of. And I think a lot of people who write are quite like that. They're. Are you like that?

[Jen Statsky]

I'm like that too. I'm pretty like one on one. I really like to connect with the person. But if I'm like at a party, I'm definitely going to be the person probably talking the least and a little bit quiet which sometimes comes off as like standoffish. And people think maybe you're like not the friendliest. But it's not that it at all. It's not. It's more that I am. Yeah. Just kind of more internal.

[Craig Ferguson]

I think we should speak out against parties. I think that parties are being forced on us by people who like parties. But I really like parties that much. A small group of people is all right, go out for dinner, maybe go and see something.

[Jen Statsky]

But sure, sure, I like a party. But there's. It's brutal when you are not in the mood for one and you have to go. That is. That's one of life' worst situations to be in.

[Craig Ferguson]

I can't think of the last time I was in the mood for a party or even to party. But let me just say this though, I have to say this right now, which is congratulations on the success of Hacks and thanks. As someone who's. It's very rare like you know, like when people cops, when they watch cop shows go, ah, that's not what it's really like being a cop. I watch Hacks and I'm like, that's exactly what it's like. That's exactly.

[Jen Statsky]

Thank you.

[Craig Ferguson]

That is exactly, exactly what it's like.

[Jen Statsky]

That is such a lovely compliment and means so much coming from you. You know, like when we started making the show we were like, this is a horrible tightrope walk we're doing which is to portray a comedy portraying comedians and the life of a comedian. And we always said like if real standups and. And now late night hosts like yourself can watch it and feel like it is capturing something real will have, you know, kind of cleared that this really high bar we set for ourselves. So it really means a lot to that from you.

[Craig Ferguson]

Well, so much so. The truth of it is this, that it, this. The. The relationship between the two main protagonists in HA is so similar to a relationship that I have with a guy who is now my. Writes for me all the time. Oh wow. Who was on my show. I don't know if you remember, he started off as an Intern. And he became the front end of the pantomime horse that used to dance around. Well, now he writes all the time. He produces for Netflix and stuff like that. And he writes for me.

[Jen Statsky]

Remind me his name.

[Craig Ferguson]

Joe Bolter. Is his name Joe Bolter?

[Jen Statsky]

Okay.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah, right. And Joe and I. So much so. When I saw the first season of Hacks, I called Joe and I said, are you in the writers room on that show? Are you being doing stuff on that show? And he said, no. He said, but I've seen it and it's spooky. There are episodes.

[Jen Statsky]

Wow.

[Craig Ferguson]

There was a. Well, I think it was the first season. Could have been the second. You'll know, I'm sure, when Deborah says, we have to go to Vegas, and they go to Vegas and then they go in a plane somewhere and they come back. I'm mixing it up with my own life. I said to Joe once, I'm doing a show in Vegas. He said, I can't come. I have to see my parents. I said, we'll be back by 10:00. And when I took him to Van Nuys airport and we got on this plane and we go out to Las Vegas and we did the show and we come back, it was all done in two hours, three hours maybe. And. And if there was something like that in Hacks, and he was like, it's so the same. Right down to our arguments about comedy. When I would be very cranky about, you know, the new rules of comedy, and he would say, there are no new rules of comedy. You just have to be funny. Right. Which I think is possibly true. There was a time there when I. I was very worried about the dogma of the next generation of comedy, but I'm not anymore. I think it's maybe even funnier, actually.

[Jen Statsky]

You were worried because you felt like we were treading into a place where we weren't. Like, comedy wasn't being valued or. What was it that was worrying you?

[Craig Ferguson]

I think more it was about the idea. And you've had Deborah say these words like, it's great to see a character when you go, yes, yes, that's right. You know, and then you realize, wait, this is the cranky old lady? Am I a cranky old lady?

[Jen Statsky]

Right.

[Craig Ferguson]

And I kind of have a little bit. Yeah.

[Jen Statsky]

But.

[Craig Ferguson]

But it's the idea that. I think for a while, I don't believe this anymore. But I did for a while there think that they're saying, or the young people are saying that certain areas of comedy are off limits and you can't make jokes about that, which I don't believe. I believe that you must be able to make jokes about whatever you can make funny. It's not like there are taboo subjects. I think that. That. I mean, there's bad jokes, but I think taboo subjects, I think, you know.

[Jen Statsky]

Yeah.

[Craig Ferguson]

And that thing. And also the. The retrogression look at material that you had done before, attitudes changed and. And picking up on that was a very weird thing.

[Jen Statsky]

Yeah.

[Craig Ferguson]

Like, well, I did that joke 10 years ago. I wouldn't do it now, you know.

[Jen Statsky]

Right, right. And that's very much so. You know, we. We did that last season when Deborah goes back to her alma mater, college, and is taken to task by the students there for old material. And. And we very much wanted to have this exact conversation that you're saying and kind of talk about, yes, times change. And, you know, there's things that we were joking about at the time and now we have moved on and understand as a society that that was not right. And, you know, it's a conversation between feeling. What Deborah feels is she feels very, like, persecuted in that moment, and she's like, but I've always tried to be on the right side of history. I just had these jokes that at the time weren't right. And Ava's sort of saying, yes. And it's also the right of people who hear those jokes down to say, like, this is. This is painful and this was not great. And there's an understanding, like, you know, one thing we're always trying to do with the show is, is have each character be both right and wrong, because that's amazingly clever. It's way. It's way more interesting to see a conversation between two people where they're both right and wrong versus, like, if Deborah was just wholly in the wrong, it's less of an interesting conversation. So that one in particular was, you know, really important for us to do, because that is such a conversation in comedy these days. Like, you're saying it's funny.

[Craig Ferguson]

The interesting thing about it as well, and what I. What I very much like about the portrayal of Deborah is that it's unapologetic. It's. It's very kind of. She's still funny, you know, which I love that. The idea of it. Did you have this? Because, I mean, it seems funny to say this to you, but you. You're kind of. You're getting to the point of veteran status now.

[Jen Statsky]

We've been doing it for long enough.

[Craig Ferguson]

I know it's. It's weird how fast it Happens as well. It is like, oh my God.

[Jen Statsky]

I know, it's great. Well, talking about like starting on, you know, Fallon was my first job and I was 24, 25 years old when I got that job. And like now I've been doing it now I'm 39. Like I've been doing it for a decade and a half. And it feels crazy like you're saying because I still feel like that kid who started in 30 Rock, like writing monologue jokes for Jimmy. So yeah, it's wild to kind of have had the luck that I've had in this career and gotten to move from late night to now making hacks and all the shows I've been lucky enough to work on in between.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah, because you worked on the Good Place as well, which was another kind of groundbreaker, is another really wonderful show.

[Jen Statsky]

Yeah, the Good Place. I value my time on that show so much. And Mike Schur, who created that, did something so brilliant with that show, which was it was a network sitcom but it was so original in its idea and its conception and what we were trying to do and the stories we were trying to do. And so, yeah, I feel really lucky to have worked on that.

[Craig Ferguson]

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[Savannah Guthrie]

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[Craig Ferguson]

Hello, this is Craig Ferguson and I want to let you know I have a brand new stand up comedy special out now on YouTube. It's called I'm so Happy and I would be so happy if you checked it out. To watch the special just go to my YouTube channel, Hecraig Ferguson show and it's just right there. Just click it and play it and it's free. I can't. Look, I'm not going to come around your house and show you how to do it. If you can't do it, then you can have it. But if you can figure it out, it's yours. The three of you that came up with hacks, there's you, and remind me.

[Jen Statsky]

It'S Paul W. Downs and Lucian Yellow.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah, right. And did you all come up together? Is that something that. Do you all know each other early, and it came organically from that?

[Jen Statsky]

Yeah. We basically all met doing, like, sketch and improv and standup in New York City. So back in, like, Lucia and I, my senior year at nyu, I was in this sketch group that was kind of an offshoot of the Upright Citizens Brigade Theater, and Lucia and I were the only girls in the sketch group, and we kind of instantly gravitated towards each other and our senses of humor. And I really loved her and thought she was so, so talented. And then she introduced me to Paul, and they had been doing sketches as a two man and making things, and Paul, you know, again, same. Just instantly was like, oh, these are the funniest people. And just had a real instant kinship and knew that I wanted to work with them.

[Craig Ferguson]

Is it something that still exists? Do you make each other laugh in the writers room still?

[Jen Statsky]

We do, yeah. Yeah, we do. You know, we.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah, it kind of shows.

[Jen Statsky]

Oh, thanks. Yeah, we really, you know, when we started the show, we made a promise to ourselves that we wouldn't ever let it interfere with our friendship, that we would always try to, like, protect that first and always kind of honor the fact that this started because we just genuinely loved making each other laugh and try to hold onto that as we move through the process. And I think that that has only proven more and more true as we've gone on, because as the show has been successful and we've been lucky to have the show be successful, like, the bigger it gets, you actually kind of can't take it all in and think about that. If you start thinking about doing it for a review or doing it for an award, it just kind of can. It can be overwhelming and eat away at. And so I think even the bigger the show has gotten, the more we lean into trying to just rely on, like, does Paul think this good? Does Lucia think this is good? And then expanding it out through there, like, do I writers think this is good, and the other people working the show think is good and trying to keep it concentrated like that.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah, it's an interesting thing because the idea of success is such an odd kind of ingredient, creatively. I think it does very odd things to creative people. It does Odd things to anyone. But if you add success and fame and then there is this thing. The example I will give you is this, is that when I started in late night, people immediately began to ask me because I was working for David Letterman behind Worldwide Pants and Dave was doing the 11:30 show and I was doing 12:30. And immediately people started saying, are you going to take over from Dave, like before I even started on my show? And I said, no, I have no interest in that. That's not my thing. And also I'm just starting this job. And it almost seems like in the world of show business, I was going to say Hollywood, but it's so much kind of not that anymore. But in the world of show business, it seems to me people used to say, what have you done lately? But now it seems to be it's what are you doing next? What you haven't done yet is more.

[Jen Statsky]

Important than I used to. I, it's so interesting you bring this up because I used to think this all the time because when I was lucky enough to be a staff writer on like Parks and Recreation or the Good Place or Broad City, people would always say, but when are you going to do your own show? But you want to run your own show, right? And of course I did eventually go on to do that with hacks. But it was such an interesting thing that people kind of put you on this ladder even if you yourself are not thinking that way. And it's very much so. Like, but what's the next thing? What's the next thing which is really counterintuitive to your process as an artist because you really are just trying to stay present and focus on making the thing you're doing in that moment good.

[Craig Ferguson]

Well, it's. And also it's an odd thing because I get it's 10 years since I left Late night, right? And people say to me, you know, they still say less so now because they're all dead, the people who remember that I was on tv, but people will say, why did you leave? And I said, look, it's mental health. It's like this. I don't know how other people deal with it, but if I walk into a building every day, five days a week, and there are pictures of me everywhere, but everywhere I go there's giant pictures of me and then there's all the stationery, all the paper has my name on it, it, and my name is everywhere. And there's me everywhere. And there's about 150 people in the building and all they are Doing is making sure I am in a good mood. Nobody wants to bring me any bad news. No. They want me to be good for the show.

[Jen Statsky]

Yeah.

[Craig Ferguson]

That makes you crazy, Jen.

[Jen Statsky]

I know it's crazy. It's really wild because you're one of like 10 people. Right. That I could talk to about this because I, I lived on the other side of that. Like when I started Felon and this was not, you know, Jimmy didn't say to say this. This was coming from someone who worked for him. He said 50 of this job is writing good jokes and 50 is being friends with Jimmy. That was like, that was the attitude that people around you had. And I'm sure, come as you're saying, you didn't even put that out there. You didn't come in and, and say, I need everything to revolve around me and everybody needs to be doing all these things to make me happy. But it, it happens. It's just what happens when there is a central figure at the head of a show that people. I don't know, it's kind of this like, almost like it's like a king in the kingdom, like the, all the, the people in the court doing all these machinations to like make him happy, but then also kind of like it turns into people being cutthroat with each other because everybody's trying to protect this one person.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah. And their access to that person. And it occurs to you, this is why I'm interested, because in the next season, you're putting Deborah in that position. You're putting Deborah into being a late night host, which I love. And I want to get to that because it's very important thing. I want to talk to you about that. But the idea of this thing occurs. I once heard about David Letterman before I was ever on the show, before I was ever on Dave's show, somebody had said, oh, no, you're not allowed to look Dave directly in the eye. You must look to the eye. If you walk down a corner, you have to look away. And I was like, really? And then, you know, I've since met David quite a lot and if I didn't look him in the eye, he'd think I was weird.

[Jen Statsky]

You know, I was like, yeah, I.

[Craig Ferguson]

Think he thinks I'm weird anyway. But the idea of that was so odd to me. And I heard it. Then I heard about Jennifer Lopez. For some reason, she was a guest on a. She wasn't even in my show. She was in the building and someone said, said don't look at her directly and it was always this same phrase. Don't look at them directly in the eye. It's like, oh, my God, I've never heard that. And then I heard that about five different people. And then I heard that about myself.

[Jen Statsky]

Oh, no way.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah, somebody said it. Oh, I heard that. Some one, an old friend, a writer who was, you know, who I brought into the show, who's an old friend of mine from the old country. And he was like, what's this story? Look you directly in the eye shape?

[Jen Statsky]

I was like, oh, my God, don't.

[Craig Ferguson]

Know what you're talking about.

[Jen Statsky]

Right. And that must be really crazy to be a public figure.

[Craig Ferguson]

It's crazy. It's fucking crazy. Yeah, it makes you crazy. I could. When Seth Meyer started, he called me up and he said, I'm very excited. And he was just phoned all the other hosts. And I said, it'll make you crazy, Seth. And he said, I don't think it will. I don't think it will. And I saw him at a Rangers game maybe about three or four months ago, and I. I don't think it has made him crazy. I think he's okay.

[Jen Statsky]

I think Seth, he, I think is a rare guy that. Yeah, he seems. Because I know Seth seems to me. Right? Yeah, yeah, totally. But. But like, that is something with this season that we wanted to pay homage to the fact that late night is such a grind. And I don't think people totally realize, like, for the host of a late night show, it's kind of like, I think it's the hardest job you can have while also being super famous because it is such a grind. It's five days a week. It is, like, relentless. And like, you're saying everything. It almost sounds like it'd be nice in some ways, like, oh, everything revolves around you and everyone's trying to make you happy. But like, you're saying that in itself can become its own kind of prison.

[Craig Ferguson]

And so don't get me wrong, it's great for about a month.

[Jen Statsky]

Yes, yes. Yeah.

[Craig Ferguson]

And then you're like, wait a minute. I had a friend who was a cop in Bakersfield, and he gave it up and he said, I hated being a cop because everybody lies to you all the time. I said, that's exactly what it's like being a late night host.

[Jen Statsky]

Everybody's lying to you all the time.

[Craig Ferguson]

And even if they're not, you think they are. It's very weird.

[Jen Statsky]

Do you ever miss it?

[Craig Ferguson]

No. I miss sometimes the fun I had on stage because the people that I Worked with on stage, Josh, Robert Thompson, who did the skeleton robot on my show. I had a very small crew of performers, and we were kind of a rep. It wasn't even a rep. It was just like. It was like half a dozen different people, and they would cycle through. And I missed that kind of almost like Upright Citizens Brigade kind of Groundlands vibe of that. I missed the team. But I don't miss. I don't miss fucking television executives. And I think that the new democratic kind of form of making content, I suppose I like the idea of being able to speak directly to the audience because that's what stand up is. And I kind of like that. And I'm kind of. I mean, in admiration of you and others in your position who can exist in the world of television because you are an artist and you create art.

[Jen Statsky]

But.

[Craig Ferguson]

But what a lot of people don't see is the meetings that you're having with people who are extremely difficult for me to deal with. I mean, it's not their fault. It's just we see the world differently, and I have a very hard time with it.

[Jen Statsky]

Well, I think you'll like this season quite a bit then, because this season is really focusing on that intersection of art and commerce and how difficult it can be. And also just, you know, even since you've left Late Night, how even, I think, more difficult it's gotten with the tremendous pressure on each individual show and property to, like, expand beyond. You know, it's not just enough to just be one singular show and get no decent ratings. Like. Like you're saying content and. And expand. You know, all of that, like, all of that comes into play now in a way that it feels like there's. There's a heavier hand on, like, perhaps the commerce side of it that makes it even more diffic. And not. Not our executives, we have been really lucky in that they're so wonderful at HBO and they foster creativity and they're so supportive. But I think Late Night in particular is in this really, as has been discussed many times, a very interesting moment.

[Craig Ferguson]

It is an odd thing, and I think what I was looking at, what I'm, you know, excited to see the new season because, Deborah, I thought, and correct me if I'm wrong, I mean, you created the character, but I always thought one of the archetypes for Deborah would be Joan Rivers. I thought that. I don't know if, you know the story about Joan Rivers in Late Night and how poorly she was treated when she got her own show. I'm sure you do. And I always thought that's really fucking unfair what happened to her.

[Jen Statsky]

I know. It's so heartbreaking. I know.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Jen Statsky]

Yes, we. You know, there's many people that Deborah's an amalgamation of, and certainly Joan is one of them that we talked about a lot and researched a lot. And yeah, she got such a raw deal with. With the Tonight show and being banned from it and then her show. It's really.

[Craig Ferguson]

It's heartbreaking because she had the audacity to do her own show.

[Jen Statsky]

Yeah, right. Which is such a. You have to think, like anybody would understand someone doing that.

[Craig Ferguson]

I don't know. I mean, it seems like maybe now I feel like in show business, one of the things I always loved about show business, and I really believe this, there's room for everybody. Like, everybody. Does it really matter? You know, it feels like, I think, particularly when you're young, when everybody's competitive and everyone's trying to make their bones, that you feel like if they're getting success, then somehow I'm not going to. There's a lovely scene of that, actually in the first scene of Hacks when they meet in the line for that show in Vegas and they're talking about other people who are doing really well. Oh, yeah, I loved that. It's so true.

[Jen Statsky]

There's this kind of thing that when you're young, you feel like someone's success is your failure. And I remember, I remember when I started writing and was young and doing it, I really had to like, train myself out of that way of thinking because it's so kind of negative. I'm glad that I'm at a point in my career where I don't think that way.

[Craig Ferguson]

I think a bit of success will help you get rid of it as well, I think.

[Jen Statsky]

But I hope I got. I think I got rid of it also before. Before, like yesterday, I think. But. But yeah, it is true. It's really hard. Especially career isn't where you want it to be.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah, that Gore Vidal said, which is. It's not enough that I succeed. It's that my friends have to fail.

[Jen Statsky]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And a lot of. I mean, you come from the standup world, which I feel like is even maybe a little more cutthroat that way than improv or sketch where I came from. Like that. That's a lot of still stand up takes, I think.

[Craig Ferguson]

Oh, yeah, I think so. Although I have to say I had a similar conversation with Bill Hader about this because I asked them about when he was on Saturday Night Live. And he took a similar route to you in a way that, you know, he came out and started, you know, and making Barry and running the show. And I said, were you very competitive when you were all working together on Saturday Live? And he said, no, we actually weren't. We were quite. It was quite collegiate. He said. But I heard about it from the old. The previous cast. And he said he thinks it might be a generational thing, which might be a bit like that as well. I think for all the kind of noise that people my age make about people your age, I think that actually younger people are kind of a bit better with each other, I think so.

[Jen Statsky]

I think something I notice in younger comedians, even the ones that are super driven, there is less. I think people have evolved a bit out of the mentality that someone else needs to fail for you to succeed. Like, yeah, I do think that hopefully there's a better kind of collective mindset around that.

[Craig Ferguson]

I guess it comes down to the individual. So when Deborah goes into late night in this season of Heights. Cause I'm actually, you know, I don't know if you've gathered this. I'm actually a huge fan of this show.

[Jen Statsky]

Oh, thank you.

[Craig Ferguson]

That means a lot. There are shows that I like your show. The first three seasons of the Righteous Gemstones. And then. And then, I don't know, I'm going back to maybe.

[Jen Statsky]

Okay, it sounded like you were gonna go into a long list, but it ended there. And then you're back to Sopranos, a show from 20 years ago.

[Craig Ferguson]

The Sopranos and the Wire. I mean, what was the. The. The Addams Family, you know, the original cast, you know.

[Jen Statsky]

Yeah. Well, that means, that means a lot coming from you. And I'm. I am so curious. And we have been lucky enough to hear from other late night hosts that they like the show. I mean, watching this season, I hope it doesn't give you ptsd because it is firmly in the world in which you lived and you're one of the only people on earth that it has quite this experience.

[Savannah Guthrie]

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[Savannah Guthrie]

Morning brings a fresh new energy.

[Craig Ferguson]

This is today and no matter what.

[Savannah Guthrie]

The we come to the Today show.

[Jen Statsky]

For all of it.

[Craig Ferguson]

When things are tough, we talk about it. When there's something to figure out, we dig into it. And when there's joy, we celebrate it.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Because today is where it's all happening. We get the best start to every morning because we start it together.

[Craig Ferguson]

Watch the Today show with Savannah Guthrie.

And Craig Melvin, weekdays at 7am on NBC.

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[Craig Ferguson]

I know, it's funny, I had a conversation with Jimmy Kimmel a few years ago when he said, you know, we this was actually before I left. It was just as I was. And he said, you know, we should all kind of get together, me, you, Dave, Jay, all that sort of stuff and have a dinner or something because there are so few people that have done this. And I was like, like, nah.

[Jen Statsky]

Why.

[Craig Ferguson]

Did you say that?

[Jen Statsky]

Why, why do you say no?

[Craig Ferguson]

I don't know, but I know that. I know that Dave would say the same thing.

[Jen Statsky]

Yeah.

[Craig Ferguson]

But what's interesting is I feel much more sanguine and affectionate towards late night now that I don't do it.

[Jen Statsky]

Got it.

[Craig Ferguson]

And I know that Dave is in a very similar place with it. You know, I feel like, like, like once I went diving with sharks in the Bahamas and I'm really glad I did it. I'm never doing it again. And that's, that's kind of, that's kind of how I, I feel about. Has a. I'm really glad I did it. I'm proud of what we did. But I, I'm glad you're happy you.

[Jen Statsky]

Got out of the water when you did.

[Craig Ferguson]

I am, I am happy I get out of the water. I am happy to get out of it. And so what, what, so what happens with hacked? Because you're at the point now, if you're starting season four, a lot of what you're doing now, if my timeline is correct and what it's like to be in charge of an operation in show business, a lot of what you're doing now will involve being hr.

[Jen Statsky]

Well, it's, it's, it's not hr, but it certainly is. And I have discussed this before. The interesting thing about showrunning is you start as a writer, you come up as a writer, you're like, I like writing tv. It's something I feel like I'm good at and I want to pursue. And then once you get your own show, all of a sudden you're in charge of a 250 person corporation. And there's a skill set of showrunning that is completely different from the skill set of writing comedy. And that has been a real learning experience over the last, you know, four or five years now. Propagi and myself, because you're right that there's just a lot of things that you have to deal with that you never envision having to deal with when you're just on staff.

[Craig Ferguson]

People's. People's problems and their feelings about the. I know, it's like, oh, my God.

[Jen Statsky]

Yeah. And like, you know, when, if someone isn't doing, like the, the thing I find very challenging is knowing, you know, if someone isn't doing a great job or it's not a great fit, like the letting go of someone, which, you know, we have, luckily, knock on wood, haven't had to do a lot. But that, that's really difficult to me because You. It's very hard to divorce the fact that this is a human being and this is their life and their livelihood, and I. I find that to be. I've really had to do work around that because it's a real. It's difficult.

[Craig Ferguson]

Also, you will be alienated from the other side because you become a resource to other people. And. And you become. If you're the boss, you. You start. You go from that position of being scrappy writer for Jimmy Fallon to, you know, boss lady in charge.

[Jen Statsky]

Yeah, totally.

[Craig Ferguson]

Did you have any. I mean, I'm friendly with Marta Kaufman, who's, you know, is, you know, ran friends and, you know, such great shows. And she seems to me to be someone who's kept her humanity through the process. Did you. Do you have a mentor for that? Did you talk to anyone? Was there anyone that you could.

[Jen Statsky]

Yeah, I think that, you know, I was really lucky in that I came up on Mike Schur shows. So Parks and Rec and the Good Place were created by Mike Schur. And Mike is. Mike is a really excellent boss in that he's just a genuinely good, deeply good person. And so that, I think, helped me. I had a good role model for running a room in terms of that. And then I think, though, it is like. It's a. It's a good way to put it, like keeping your humanity and staying in check with your humanity, because I think you can get so. Some people get so myopic and focused on the end goal of the show or the. You know, and you do. You have to do that. You have to be protecting the show and protecting your work. But you also do need to stay in touch with your humanity and that these are human beings that you're working with. So it is something that's a difficult part of it because it's exactly in. In play in you is the intersection of art and commerce. You're trying to stay creative and vulnerable, to create something real and funny and truthful, but you're also having to be management and make some decisions along the way that maybe emotion doesn't serve you as well in. So it's a really interesting thing to balance. And I. I hope over the years, I've only gotten better at it because it's a difficult thing.

[Craig Ferguson]

Think it is a difficult thing, and it isn't. Ultimately, I think. I think for me, I had to make a choice about. I got to go away from this. And I think that. What I think is fascinating about it is that the people I know who have gone through your pro, like Going through a showrunners type life, you know, if you look at. Well, I suppose a great archetype for it would be Larry David.

[Jen Statsky]

Yes. Yeah.

[Craig Ferguson]

You know, going to that. If I look at. I mean, I always liked Seinfeld. Who didn't like Seinfeld? But having watched Curb your enthusiasm, Seinfeld is a much better show. It's a much better show. Knowing who Larry is and what Larry is and seeing him in the show, seeing him.

[Jen Statsky]

Injury.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's kind of fascinating. And I wonder, do you have any, Is there any. I mean, I know you're very busy and you're very inside this world and all that, but is there any kind of point where you think that performances for you or moving in that direction is something that you would want to explore?

[Jen Statsky]

No, I really am not a performer and I do not, not that I like, I, I've been, I've acted in things here and there, but it's not, it doesn't light me up. It doesn't. I don't get the kind of fulfillment that other people get from it. I just really don't. I don't feel comfortable doing it. And, and I think one thing you're speaking to about when you said like I had to get out and the management and the pressure is like, I think one thing that has really saved me and made show running tolerable is that I'm never doing it alone. I'm doing it with Paula Chia and I never feel alone. And I, I say this like I could not show around alone. I would feel, I would go crazy if I felt like I didn't have two people that were in it with me and fully understanding the experience of what we're, what we're doing. So I also wonder, like, was that a difficult part of it for you? Did you feel. I mean, like you said, it's isolated on the door and your name on the stationary, like it was really all about you. And that probably felt really like solitary.

[Craig Ferguson]

I think. I think for a personality like mine, which is kind of like, you know, I, I'm kind of alcoholic addict that I know. I feel like I'm the piece of shit at the center of the universe. Do you know what I mean? It's like a conflicting narcissism and self hatred and stuff that I think for a personality like mine, it's highly toxic. I think for somebody like, I think Seth is like Tom Bombadil with that shit that just, it just doesn't. Fucking the ring just has no power over him. He's. I can do it. I was like, oh, my God. Don't you go like. I was like, ah, my precious. He's like, no, I'm fine.

[Jen Statsky]

Right. It's possible that, like, demons you have the job will draw those out and reveal.

[Craig Ferguson]

I think success does that. I think success catnip for demons. I think that for whatever darkness you have. And Jen, my dear, who you're now my new best friend, I have to tell you, I don't believe for a second that someone that can write like you write doesn't have fucking demons. So the idea.

[Jen Statsky]

I definitely have demons. For sure. I have demons.

[Craig Ferguson]

Do you find them activated by. I mean, do you find them activated by busyness and success and.

[Jen Statsky]

Yeah, well, I kind of. Mine come from. I had a very specific upbringing where my parents. It was a very difficult household. There were a lot of fighting, a lot of. Like, my mom was not mentally well. It was a chaotic upbringing, for sure. And I think what's interesting is my demons. I deal with my demons in the quest for success. Like in. In I was an only child, and so I was very much so alone in that environment. And in my way of coping was to really hone in on school and academics. And I was like, I'm going to be the best student I can. Because I saw it as a life raft. I saw it as a thing that would get me out of that situation. And I just as easily could have seen drugs or alcohol as that. I just. For whatever reason, school and work and that was my thing that was getting me out. But in that same way, it's a coping mechanism. And I've had to also work with the balance of. It made me addicted to work. It made me addicted to. Not to success for the sake of success, the way some people are like, oh, I just want to be successful because I want to see my name on deadline or whatever. It's more. It's the demons thing. It's a coping mechanism because I still feel I need it to get out.

[Craig Ferguson]

That makes sense to me, what you're saying makes perfect sense. Because the idea. If you use the word chaotic, if you are around chaos as a young person, then what could be more the antithesis of that than becoming a writer? When you're in charge of the story? Totally, yes. Now you create order by writing it down, and it now occurs like that. I think it's a fantastically clever use of your darkness. Yeah, my hair's off to you. It's much better than cocaine, I think. Much better than Cocaine and alcohol. I feel like you made the right choice. Fun.

[Jen Statsky]

It's less fun.

[Craig Ferguson]

Oh, I don't know about that. I really don't.

[Jen Statsky]

Well, that's more fun for a little bit. And then that gets really unfun done. This is. Yeah, but. Yeah, but it is. It's exactly that. It's. You're. If you grow up in a world that doesn't really make sense, so many people become writers because they are trying to create a world in which they can make sense of it.

[Craig Ferguson]

I think that. I think everything comes down to that, doesn't it? It's like your first 10 years will inform the next 70 that whatever you will do. And I. I wonder about that, that later on, what does that look like for you? And is there a. Is there any kind of look, I don't do this, so I don't expect anyone else to, but. But I feel like I, as someone like talking to you who, you know, you do write, you do create order. Is there an end goal? Is there a plan beyond the job that you're working on now? Like a specific.

[Jen Statsky]

Not really, no. I mean, I think, like, what's interesting is I think it's really more. The work that I have to do is sitting with stillness and not doing things. And that I find to be the most challenging because I think the way I've gone about my career and I've been really lucky and I feel very privileged to get to create things and have people connect with them. But I have been sort of on this treadmill for a long, long time and I find that when I have to stop, anytime I have to stop, that's. That is like the real challenge for me. So I don't know that there's a goal. I, I'm. I feel so lucky to do what I do and I want to keep doing it for as long as I can, but there. But I don't know that I. I don't want for much more in my career because I've. I've been so blessed up until this point.

[Craig Ferguson]

Is there a form of writing? Because as far as I know, and I could be wrong, as far as I know, all of your writing is contained in the world of, of television. Is there a. Is there a book?

[Jen Statsky]

Is there a book? You know, some. My agent asked me this the other day. I. I don't know that there's a book. There's not a novel. I, I don't envision myself writing novel. I would maybe write a book of like essays or something non fiction about My life when I have lived more of it and have more to tell. But no, not a novel. I, I, I, One of our hacks writers just wrote a novel over like that comes out soon and I'm so impressed because my brain doesn't think that way. I, I, I can't picture doing more like prose writing.

[Craig Ferguson]

I feel like I'm going to predict that you will change course on that.

[Jen Statsky]

Oh, you think I'm gonna write a book?

[Craig Ferguson]

Look, I'm not the boss of you, but I'm just saying it'd be cool if you.

[Jen Statsky]

I would love someone to tell me what to do.

[Craig Ferguson]

So I, I feel like there are some. Now, look, I don't know who writes what in, in the script of hacks, but I hear the way that the, these characters. Look, I know the rules. I know that, you know, dialogue is exposition. I know that, that, I know that every single thing that they're saying is telling the story. Even knowing that rule, I can't see it. That's some good writing.

[Jen Statsky]

Oh, thank you. Thank you.

[Craig Ferguson]

And so whoever, whatever you guys are doing in there, there is a love of prose. There is a there. And you know, know, embrace, embrace mono. Embrace the, you know, embrace the right, Embrace the Luddite prose and see where it goes. I think you'd enjoy it. I think it's. If you talk about imposing order on chaos, like when I was going through, I wrote, I've written one novel so far, one and a half. And when I wrote the novel, I was going through a terrible. Well, I don't know if anyone goes through a good divorce, but I was going through a divorce.

[Jen Statsky]

That'd be funny if you said I was going through an amazing divorce.

[Craig Ferguson]

Such fun, such a riot. Where, oh, we had such a laugh. But I was going through a divorce when I wrote the novel. And if you talk about getting a world where you could impose everything, because what happened, I was getting a divorce and I'd had, I'd written a movie which had stiffed it, gone straight to video, which that's, you know, that shows how long ago was. Because now going straight to videos.

[Jen Statsky]

Yeah, yeah.

[Craig Ferguson]

I'd be like, oh, yeah, or it's streaming right away.

[Jen Statsky]

Oh, that's right.

[Craig Ferguson]

Right.

[Jen Statsky]

Yeah, yeah.

[Craig Ferguson]

But the idea of imposing order on chaos, it became extremely therapeutic during all that to go to a, a world that I was 100% in charge of.

[Jen Statsky]

It's interesting. That's interesting.

[Craig Ferguson]

And you don't have to have a plan because once you create the first five or six pages, then it seems to kind of take you where it wants to take you. Oh, yeah, you're right.

[Jen Statsky]

I probably shouldn't be so quick to dismiss it because I might actually really like it.

[Craig Ferguson]

I think you might.

[Jen Statsky]

I. I hate writing alone. I get really. And again, this is about the stillness. This is about the right. Even though I am like, I don't at a party, I'm not again to go back to. I'm not going to be like the loudest person pulling focus. I also really don't. Look, I hate writing alone. I like being alone. I like doing things alone. I'm very much an only child in that way. But writing alone is torture to me.

[Craig Ferguson]

I think you'll get used to it. It's like olives. You don't like olives until you're 30. That's the same thing. Your tastes will change.

[Jen Statsky]

Okay. Okay. Good. Good.

[Craig Ferguson]

I don't know. I understand it though, like people say when they go away to the country to write. I can't write shit in the country. I can't. But if I walk around the city block in New York, I come back with an idea.

[Jen Statsky]

Right, right, right.

[Craig Ferguson]

It's been around. I understand that. I understand the being around it. But look, whatever you're doing, keep doing it because it's awesome.

[Jen Statsky]

Oh, thanks. Thank you.

[Craig Ferguson]

And I'm very impressed. I. I feel like when you do write a book, I am entitled to 10% of the. The.

[Jen Statsky]

For sure. For sure. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Maybe you can write the introduction.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah, yeah, I will. And then I'll write a little thing on the back.

[Jen Statsky]

Yeah. This was. You say this was my idea?

[Craig Ferguson]

This is my idea. But you know, I gotta admit, Jan did show up and type it. All right. It's been great to talk to you. Good luck with the new season of Heist. It's such a great show. Congratulations to everyone.

[Jen Statsky]

It's been so lovely to talk to you. Well, please let me know what you think because it is. It is a world you live. So I hope we did it justice and got it right.

[Craig Ferguson]

It doesn't deserve justice, it just deserves to be reported. Bye. Bye. Thanks, Craig. Bye. Thanks. Bye. Bye.

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