Moshe Kasher

Summary

Joy Podcast Episode Summary: Craig Ferguson with Moshe Kasher
Released on April 22, 2025

---

Introduction

In this engaging episode of "Joy," hosted by the storied late-night talk host Craig Ferguson, Ferguson sits down with acclaimed stand-up comedian and author Moshe Kasher. The conversation delves deep into Moshe's personal journey, exploring themes of sobriety, cultural identity, comedy, and more. Throughout the discussion, both hosts share insightful perspectives, peppered with humor and profound reflections on finding joy amidst life's challenges.

---

1. Sobriety and Personal Transformation

Exploring Early Sobriety and Its Impact

Moshe Kasher opens up about his early experiences with sobriety, sharing how he managed to get clean by the age of 16. This foundational period significantly shaped his identity and worldview.

• Moshe Kasher [06:14]: "It was my first book, Kasher in the Rye. The true tale of a white boy from Oakland who became a drug addict, criminal mental patient and then turned 16."

Craig Ferguson relates to Moshe’s journey, discussing his own three-decade-long sobriety and the complex relationship one can have with their past struggles.

• Craig Ferguson [07:22]: "I feel like that's still what I am. It's just, it's not connected to. It’s more a description of the type of person that I am."

Evolving Understanding of Addiction

As Moshe approaches his mid-30s, he reflects on how his perception of alcoholism has evolved, questioning the rigid definitions he once held.

• Moshe Kasher [08:23]: "I no longer understand the word alcoholic... Nothing about me is the same from when I was 15."

2. Cultural Identity and Judaism

Navigating Jewish Identity in a Modern Context

Moshe discusses the complexities of maintaining his Jewish identity amidst the intertwining of cultural and political agendas, particularly highlighting the Israeli-Palestinian conflict's impact on personal and communal identity.

• Moshe Kasher [26:06]: "Jewish identity has been swallowed whole by political agenda... my relationship with my religion and with my ethnic background has become more complicated and more difficult."

Craig Ferguson shares his own experiences growing up in Scotland during the Cold War, emphasizing how direct cultural encounters can reshape preconceived notions.

• Craig Ferguson [27:56]: "When I went to Russia... realizing that a lot of people in Russia were not... Stalinists, they were kind of... It just gets inhuman."

3. The Art and Evolution of Comedy

Comedy as a Philosophical Tool

The conversation shifts to comedy, with Moshe articulating his concerns about the current state of comedy being influenced by ideological extremes. He critiques how some comedians prioritize their political messages over genuine humor.

• Moshe Kasher [31:04]: "Jokes that are offensive without any point... lack of humor on both sides of the ideological comedy aisle."

Craig Ferguson echoes these sentiments, lamenting the challenges comedians face in balancing humor with social commentary.

• Craig Ferguson [34:14]: "Good comedians to me are just Socratic philosophers."

The Importance of Skill in Comedy

Both hosts emphasize the necessity of mastering comedic craft before delving into more experimental or crowd-centric forms of humor.

• Craig Ferguson [36:25]: "You don’t give a saxophone to someone who's never played one before and they make five different squeaky noises."

4. The Rave Scene and Personal Reinvention

From Sobriety to the Rave Culture

Moshe shares his transformative experience transitioning from sobriety to immersing himself in the rave scene at 16. This period marked a significant shift in his identity and lifestyle.

• Moshe Kasher [43:03]: "I felt like, I couldn't go back to grad school. It's too late. I had to find a way to make it feel refreshing, make it feel useful and meaningful."

Challenges and Identity Crisis

He recounts the difficulties of maintaining his identity as a DJ while facing challenges such as being defrauded by a promoter, leading to his gradual exit from the rave scene.

• Moshe Kasher [52:50]: "I gave up on DJing altogether in that moment."

5. Burning Man and the Evolution of Subcultures

Experiencing Burning Man Over the Years

Moshe discusses his long-term involvement with Burning Man, observing how the event has transformed over 25 years, mirroring broader cultural shifts.

• Moshe Kasher [53:20]: "I've seen it go from the thing it was to the thing it is. And I'm watching it become the thing it will be, which is not as exciting as I would hope."

Craig Ferguson humorously describes his perception of Burning Man, highlighting the generational changes and cultural dilution.

• Craig Ferguson [54:40]: "I always imagine it be like 50, 55 year old men out of shape, walking around wearing shirts and no pants."

6. Parenting and Preserving Individuality

Guiding the Next Generation

The hosts touch upon the challenges of parenting in a digital age, emphasizing the importance of allowing children to discover their unique paths amidst societal pressures.

• Moshe Kasher [56:52]: "I hope that you find things that are uniquely you and find a path that is uniquely yours."

• Craig Ferguson [57:09]: Discusses his son's passion for animation, reflecting on the fulfillment of seeing a child embrace their true interests.

7. The Deaf Community and American Sign Language

Embracing Diversity and Communication

In the final segment, Moshe delves into his experiences as a sign language interpreter and the importance of understanding and respecting different forms of communication.

• Moshe Kasher [69:33]: "I spent a long time as a sign language interpreter... the education of the deaf and American Sign Language."

Craig shares a personal anecdote about learning sign language to support a deaf friend in sobriety.

• Craig Ferguson [70:03]: "I was helping a guy get sober who was deaf... he taught me some sign language."

---

Notable Quotes

• Craig Ferguson [10:04]: "If I was allergic to peanuts when I was five years old... And I feel like that with me, alcohol is kind of like that."

• Moshe Kasher [31:04]: "If you believe all of the conspiracy theories, you're a bigger fool."

• Moshe Kasher [34:33]: "A thousand percent."

• Craig Ferguson [39:00]: "Throwing everything I could to make it look as fucking absurd as I felt that it was."

• Moshe Kasher [68:42]: "Amen."

---

Conclusion

This episode of "Joy" offers a profound exploration of personal growth, cultural identity, and the evolving landscape of comedy through the lens of Moshe Kasher. Craig Ferguson skillfully navigates the conversation, allowing Moshe to share his multifaceted experiences and insights. Listeners are left with a deeper understanding of the complexities of finding joy and maintaining authenticity in a world that often feels overwhelming and fragmented.

---

About Moshe Kasher

Moshe Kasher is a renowned stand-up comedian, author, and podcast host known for his sharp wit and introspective humor. His book, Subculture Vulture, chronicles his adventures through various subcultures, offering a candid look into his journey of self-discovery and resilience.

About Joy Podcast

"Joy" is an iHeartPodcasts series where Craig Ferguson engages with notable guests from diverse fields to discuss the state of joy in today's world. Through heartfelt conversations, the podcast seeks to uncover where joy resides in a seemingly collapsing society.

Transcript

[Unknown Host]

Every morning brings a fresh new energy.

[Craig Ferguson]

And no matter what the day holds, we come to the Today show for all of it.

[Unknown Speaker]

We get the best start to the day because we started together.

[Moshi Kasher]

Watch the Today show weekdays at 7am on NBC.

[Unknown Speaker]

We're leaving today and entering a world of Cinderella, Castle, sightseeing, Tron Light cycling, Jungle Cruise, punning Pirate, swashbuckling, Everest, climbing, Dapper Danning, danning, Danning Soren Su Fireworks, show of I'm not crying, you're crying. World of Favorites for whatever you love, infinite worlds await at the most magical place on earth. Walt Disney World Resort.

[Craig Ferguson]

This season, let your shoes do the talking. Designer Shoe Warehouse is packed with fresh styles that speak to your whole vibe without saying a word. From cool sneakers that look good with everything. The easy sandals you'll want to wear on repeat. DSW has you covered. Find a shoe for every heel from the brands you love like Birkenstock, Nike, Adidas, New Balance and more. Head to your DSW store or visit dsw.com today.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. Spring is in full swing, which means it's time for spring cleaning. Don't worry, we've got everything you need to stock up on spring cleaning essentials because a clean home is a happy home. Shop in store or online for spring cleaning favorites like Method All Purpose Cleaner, Swiffer Heavy Duty Mopping Cloths, Lysol Bathroom Cleaner, Scotch Brite Sponges and Clorox Disinfecting Wipes and Save. Offer ends April 22. Promotions may vary. Restrictions apply. Visit albertsons or safeway.com for more details.

[Craig Ferguson]

This is me, Craig Ferguson. I'm inviting you to come and see my brand new comedy hour. Well, it's actually, it's about an hour and a half and I don't have an opener cause these guys cost money. But, but what I'm saying is I'll be on stage for a while anyway. Come and see me live on the Pants on Fire tour in your region. Tickets are on sale now and we'll be adding more as the Tour continues throughout 2025 and beyond. For a full list of dates, go to thecraigfergusonshow.com See you on the road, my dears. My name is Craig Ferguson. The name of this podcast is Joy. I talk to interesting people, but what brings them happiness. One of the rules I set for myself when I started this podcast is that I was only going to talk to people that I wanted to talk to. And for the most part I'd stuck to that, except for the episodes when it was just me talking to myself. But I will say this. My guest today is someone who I've known tangentially and I'm a fan of and I've watched him work over the last maybe almost 20 years since I started in late night. 15 years, something like that. He is a very unusual mind, a standup comedian, but much more than a stand up comedian, as I think you're about to find out. Moshi kasher in the body. What I have to say to you, Moshi, is this. I haven't seen you for a while and you've got new glasses.

[Moshi Kasher]

I'm glad you noticed. I did get new glasses.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Moshi Kasher]

And they're about to be old glasses.

[Craig Ferguson]

Are they glasses that you can see people behind you? They look like they might be glasses, but they've got the little mirrors and you can see people behind you, you know, ones I'm talking about.

[Moshi Kasher]

What I can say about that is this. They were made in Germany, so the possibility that they're doing surveillance is higher than if they were American glasses.

[Craig Ferguson]

Well, I think nowadays, I think we're all under a little bit of surveillance. We signed up for it, man. We saying that with these things.

[Moshi Kasher]

I thought you were talking about Cash Patel in the new surveillance apparatus of the United States government, which has never been more sophisticated and impressive.

[Craig Ferguson]

Tell me about this. I don't know anything about it.

[Moshi Kasher]

About me and Cash Patel. Well, Cash is an old college buddy. He's running the FBI now and he kind of. I'm on his email list and I'm getting a lot of the intel and he's up to some really interesting stuff. And I'm really glad you had me on your podcast because that's all I want to talk about today.

[Craig Ferguson]

Do you really know Kash Patel?

[Moshi Kasher]

No, I wish. I don't wish I did. I hope he doesn't know who I am. I never want him to know my name.

[Craig Ferguson]

He knows who you are. He knows when we are sleeping and he knows when we are awake.

[Moshi Kasher]

Wait, Cash Patel is Santa Claus?

[Craig Ferguson]

That's kind of what I'm saying here. That's what I'm saying, that he's Santa. He knows. Some are on the naughty list, some are on the n. You're so right.

[Moshi Kasher]

He. He 100% has a naughty and nice list. And it's. It's actually just a tw. It's an Elon Musk X feed. And he just looks at it and. And the coal has.

[Craig Ferguson]

Had.

[Moshi Kasher]

Is a. Is back too. They're digging for coal.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah, I. I heard about that. What. What do you use coal for? Now, see, I grew up in Scotland where coal was very popular. We used it for all sorts of things. We made houses out of it and toys. When my. I think my first Christmas present was coal. But the. It's coals for power stations. I guess that's it, isn't it?

[Moshi Kasher]

I'm glad that you're coming to me for questions about the power infrastructure in the United States, because I'm the right guy. Listen, I grew up. I grew up Jewish, so our Christmas presents were made of gold. And they were just telescopes where we could see into the houses of the gentile families.

[Craig Ferguson]

Oh, nice tiny little telescopes as well made golden foreskins. I'm glad you mentioned growing up because I'm always fascinated to talk to you because you got. You got clean and sober like before. Most people get started on their journey of excess if they're gonna have one. What was the name of your book again? I read it ages ago, but it was about somebody who got clean and sober by the age of 16 or something.

[Moshi Kasher]

Oh, it was my. That's my first book, Casher in the Rye. The true. The true tale of. The true tale of a white boy from Oakland who became a drug addict, criminal mental patient and then turned 16.

[Craig Ferguson]

Turned 16. There you go. Yeah, I remember it. I'm glad you remember it too. It's a fascinating kind of thing because I feel like you may have. You should be able to sue someone, I think, if you've gone through all that by the time you're 60.

[Moshi Kasher]

Well, who would it be? My mother, probably.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah, I think probably you should sue your mother.

[Moshi Kasher]

You know, I've officially been sober such a long time, from such a young age that I don't even find it impressive anymore. From about age 20 to about age 35, I was, like, very proud of it. Like, it's been 15 years and I'm only 30 years old. Now I'm 45 and it's been 30 years. And I get embarrassed trying to talk about it at, like, dinner parties because it begs so many questions that I don't have good answers to.

[Craig Ferguson]

Well, it's interesting thing. You bring up an interesting point because I've been sober for over 30 years as well. And it is an interesting thing because I don't. People say, you know, will say things to me like, do you miss it? And I'm like, Ms. Watkins, hardly. I don't even know what you're talking about. You know, it's Yeah. I mean, it's such a long time ago. What happens is, though, I think. I mean, I. I describe myself as an alcoholic. I. I don't know how. How you identify, but that. That's kind of. And I feel like that's still what I am. It's just. It's not connected to. It's more a description of the type of person that I am, the type of, you know, mental aberrations that I have are connected with being an alcoholic. I mean, look, I can get back to drinking pretty fast if I. If I made a terrible error of judgment, but. But it doesn't come up in my daily life at all. Do you mean, do you think about it at all?

[Moshi Kasher]

About drinking again?

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah, Drinking or using or anything like that.

[Moshi Kasher]

Well, I'll tell you, I'll answer your first question by saying during those glory years when I would brag at parties about how long I had been sober, because it really was something I thought was so cool and unique and different about me because I was so young, and I really was proud of it, and I was proud of the muck that I'd pulled myself out of. But as I have gotten older, and I'm sure it's not a coincidence, it's coincided with me feeling less sort of confident about declaring how long it's been. Is this idea of. I no longer understand the word alcoholic. Like, I understand the framing that you're. That you're giving over. And I think in program, it becomes this sort of spiritual state of being. It's. It's the. It's my orientation in the world. It's the way that I interact with the universe. It's the agita I feel if I'm not caring for myself, it's, you know, scrambling thoughts, blah, blah, blah, which. I have all of those characteristics, but so do a lot of people. But I got sober so young. I was 15 years old when I got out of rehab for the last time, almost 16. And for, I would say, probably 20 years, I knew in my bones that I was an alcoholic. But now I don't know if I know what an alcoholic is. And I. I mean, obviously I know that there are alcoholic behaviors. Drinking too much, compulsive drinking, being unable to stop drinking once you start. But if I was. Nothing about me is the same from when I was 15. So to the idea that there's one spiritual state of being that still is totally true and definitive for me is. Is harder with each passing year for me to wrap my brain around.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah, I can identify Very strongly with that. I think the thing that I pivot around, which is maybe slightly different or a slightly different way of approaching it to you, is that I, I. It's kind of. I, like, take the allergy kind of things. Like, if I was allergic to peanuts when I was five years old, I'm allergic to peanuts. I'm 62 years old. The allergy. I've changed a great deal in that time, but the essential allergy to peanuts remains fundamentally true and unchanged. And I feel like that with me, alcohol is kind of like that. That. That is the. It's still the basic. The first drink is the one that gets you drunk, not the third one, not the tenth one. And. And if I get to the point where I introduce the allergen into my system, then I'm no longer holding the wheel. That's kind of how I feel about it.

[Moshi Kasher]

And that makes total sense. And I don't refute it, actually, in the set. I have a new book out that came out last year. I think you'd actually really like it. It's called Subculture Vulture, a memoir in six scenes. And in each subculture that I examine, these are like the kind of six worlds that I've spent my life in. I do a history of that world, and then I enter the history. At a certain point, it becomes about my time in that world. And the first chapter, it's actually more. I don't know, they're actually longer than chapters. It's like the first novella is about my time in aa, and I talk about this whole process where I went through this brain melt at about, I don't know, about 20 years sober, where it just became harder and harder for me to understand what I meant when I declared myself alcoholic. But I understand what you're saying, too. That idea, like, once you have crossed a threshold into alcoholism, you become allergic in a way that is permanent. And not to say I think anyone should drink again, I certainly don't. And I'm still sober. But allergies even change from 15 to 45. I mean, even within the framework of the analogy, you could say, well, I was allergic to the peanut when I was 15, but now I'm 45 and my chemistry has changed. But I use an analogy in the book. I think you'd like I to describe what alcoholism is, is. I have two problems, right? The alcoholic has two problems. It is strawberries and mind fuck. Like, you need both in order to really be an alcoholic, right? Strawberries is the analogy you're using, right? It's like every time I eat a strawberry, I break out in hives. I leave my wife, I go drunk driving. You know, I have an allergy for strawberries. And if all I had was the allergy for strawberries, it would be very simple to know what to do in the face of that. Which is just don't.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah, that. You're right.

[Moshi Kasher]

Avoid the strawberry patch.

[Craig Ferguson]

Strawberries.

[Moshi Kasher]

Yeah, yeah, but you already know where this is going. The other problem we have is mind. Fuck mindfuck is every time you look at a strawberry, all you can remember is the beautiful delicious flavor of that sweet nectar within that strawberry. You must have another strawberry, you take another bite. And the allergy is bad. But I don't even know if I believe in that analogy anymore.

[Craig Ferguson]

Well, you know, it's kind of like it's whatever works in the day. I think. I, I, I know that, I know that it is, it is something. And I'm sure you've heard this as well. There are two things that I, I hear more about in my life than ever. One is addiction and addictive people, especially if they're being described by people who have opinions about it but have not experienced it, or people who are in the active throws of it. Matt, they really talk a lot, right?

[Moshi Kasher]

It's either people who don't know what they're talking about or people who do. Both of them are full of shit. Full of shit.

[Craig Ferguson]

Right. And the other one is aviation. What sort of promises have you made to yourself this year? Get in better shape, eat healthier, save more money, travel somewhere new. What about discovering a new culture by learning a new language? With Babbel you can in just a few weeks. Babbel's quick 10 minute lessons, handcrafted by over 200 language experts get you to begin speaking your new language in three weeks or whatever pace you choose. And because conversing is the key to really understanding each other in new languages, Babbel is designed using practical real world conversations. Let me tell you this, I'm doing a European stand up comedy tour this year and I am totally going to use Babbel to get at least a couple of hey, it's great to be in Copenhagen jokes. So with over 16 million subscriptions sold, Babbel's 14 award winning language courses are backed by a 20 day money back guarantee. So let's get more of you talking in a new language. Babbel is gifting our listeners 60% off subscriptions at babbel.com joy get up to 60% [e-mail] joy spelled B-A-B-B-E-L.com joy battle.com joy rules and restrictions may apply, from.

[Unknown Host]

Prioritizing time to keep our bodies active to simply creating space to check on our well being. Happiness Lab listeners take their health very seriously. But when it comes to treating complex issues like heart disease, neurological disorders, or even cancer, the right care can make all the difference. That's why Cleveland Clinic has been elevating world class patient care for over a century. Whether they're raising the bar in heart care, uncovering the mysteries of the brain, or researching new treatments for cancer, Cleveland Clinic continues to redefine what's possible for every breakthrough in health for every care in the world. Explore a wide array of health and wellness information by visiting clevelandclinic.org today.

[Cindy Crawford]

Hi, I'm Cindy Crawford and I'm the founder of Meaningful Beauty. Well I don't know about you but like I never liked being told oh wow, you look so good for your age. Like why even bother saying that? Why don't you just say you look great at any age, every age. That's what Meaningful Beauty is all about. We create products that make you feel confident in your skin at the age you are now. Meaningful Beauty. Beautiful skin at every age. Learn [e-mail].

[Craig Ferguson]

Ryan Reynolds here from IT Mobile. I don't know if you knew this but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebr so do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to [e-mail].

[Cindy Crawford]

Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3.

[Unknown Host]

Month plan equivalent to $15 per month.

[Cindy Crawford]

Required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full [e-mail] hello, this is Craig.

[Craig Ferguson]

Ferguson and I want to let you know I have a brand new stand up comedy special out now on YouTube. It's called I'm so Happy and I would be so happy if you checked it out. To watch the special just go to my YouTube channel at the Craig Ferguson show and this is right there. Just click it and play it and it's free. I can't. Look, I'm not going to come around your house and show you how to do it. If you can't do it then you can have it. But if you can figure it out, it's yours. Aviation is something that I became. I was terrified of flying for a long time and I thought that as people of my strike kind of do, I thought the best way to combat this clearly is to learn how to fly. And I got a pilot's license and I kind of went through all of that and I learned so much about it that now when I, when you read a report about, you know, drunk guy on plane forces emergency landing and you go, it's not an emergency landing. They just landed the plane because there was a drunk guy on it, that's not an emergency, that's just fucking unpleasant. And then. Or the, is like turbulence. The plane dropped a thousand feet. It didn't, it didn't drop a thousand feet. And it's weird. It's like a plane traveling at 600 miles an hour, going through, you know, rough air moves maybe an inch, a couple of inches, maybe a foot maybe if you're real, you know, real mind blowing turbulence, but like thousands of feet. It's just. And what I think is, is interesting is that we're now living in a world where there is no. I don't know. I don't know if I trust any source of information, even the ones that I go to that I supposedly trust. I'm like, sometimes when I hear stuff, I'm like, yeah, I don't know if that. I don't doesn't say right to me. I think we've become very suspicious.

[Moshi Kasher]

I think we should be very suspicious because information has become unbelievably less, less reliable and Cash Patel is a part of the issue. But it's true. Here's the. I was thinking about this last night because I was working on a new bit about this very topic, which is that everyone is stupid. I think we all know that everyone's stupid except for you and me, right? Kind of the only two intelligent people left. But the stupidity has a different harmonic these days. For 200,000 years, stupid people were like, yeah, I'm kind of just like a stupid guy. I'm just a dumb old guy and I go to other people for information. Stupid people now are like, I'm actually the smartest person in the world. I actually know every single thing that there is to know. That's the disease of the modern era is that the no one will admit that they don't know anything anymore. And it expresses itself. This is the bit I'm working on is about homeschooling. I'm like, I've never met a person who decided to homeschool their kids. I hope you don't homeschool your kids. I've never met a person that decided no. Who decided to homeschool their kid where I'm like, yes, you are an educator. I have always thought you had it in you. I've never seen it. Never.

[Craig Ferguson]

That's a fascinating approach and I wholeheartedly agree. I think, see, I have this. It's not an argument, but I have this different point of view with my wife. My wife sees conspiracy, not conspiracy theories, but she always thinks, like, you know what these guys in Washington are up to? Or do you know what these guys are doing? And I'm like, I have a. I think her view of the world, like they're up to something, is a rather touching and optimistic view of the world because I don't think any of these fuckers are smart enough to be up to anything. I think they're just basically bumping around going, oh, what now? Oh, what now? And I don't think I have a very hard time believing in any form of conspiracy theory because, like you, I think most people except you and me are pretty stupid.

[Moshi Kasher]

There's a tradition in Judaism called the midrash, right? The midrash are extra canonical anecdotes about biblical figures and the story of the Bible, right? So they're kind of like oral stories that were passed down that are not like fully canon but are extra canon, right? Like strange story. I don't know if you ever heard the story of Abraham coming and breaking all of the idols in front of us that his father used to worship. I don't know if you've ever heard that story.

[Craig Ferguson]

I don't know that one. I know the one about, I'm going to murder my son. I'm not going to murder my son. That's the only one I know about.

[Moshi Kasher]

Unfortunately. That one's. That one's in. That one's in the original text. Unfortunately, that made it to the main script. But this is like an extra thing which is like, when God revealed himself to Abraham, Abraham came to his father's, you know, idol worship barn and broke all the idols. And for my whole childhood, I thought that was in the Bible. And then I found out, oh, it's not in the Bible at all. It's just an extra story that people kind of tell. Anyway, what's my point of saying all that? There's all these Midrash. Midrashim they're called. And there's a great quote about the Midrash, about the Midrashim, which is, if you believe all of the Midrash You're a fool. If you believe none of them, you're a bigger fool. And that's a religious idea in Judaism. I have always ported that idea over into conspiracy theory. If you believe. But I reverse it, which is if you believe no conspiracy theory, you're a fool. If you believe all the conspiracy theories, you're a bigger fool.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yes, I think I can absolutely concur with you on that. But the problem is, of course is, is picking the ones to believe and not to believe. And they also the. The agenda, which is interesting. You use Judaism, which of course you would do, but it's because of course the, the Jewish people are always accused. The anti Semitism is always based on a. Oh, these guys are up to something. Oh, there's an agenda like to that. That Protocols of the Elders of Zion stuff. I mean, that's our greatest. It's like that's our greatest work. It's. It's so crazy. It's like I remember hearing a while ago, somebody was banging on about. They hated. It was actually, I think it was on Bill Maher show, somebody was talking about. Yeah, I don't suppose they like that on the Hollywood cocktail circuit. And I'm like, hollywood cocktail circuit? The fuck are you talking about?

[Moshi Kasher]

Well, you heard synagogue. When you, when you, when you heard Hollywood cocktails, you thought synagogue.

[Craig Ferguson]

I know, I. What I thought. How dare you accuse me of that. What I thought was that. Do you know anything about Hollywood? The idea that people are hanging around, socializing, that they're not. They don't do that. It's. Hollywood is, Is the most work, you know, LA Hollywood. I'm not talking about Hollywood Boulevard and stuff, but I mean, that's a whole different community.

[Moshi Kasher]

But they, they do hang out.

[Craig Ferguson]

The idea that, that people in Hollywood hang out because they like each other in the show business community, I don't see a lot of that. I wasn't aware of it. Maybe they just didn't like me.

[Moshi Kasher]

Oh. Or that we get. You mean that we all get together and kind of like lay out the plan for controlling the culture for movies.

[Craig Ferguson]

And show business and stuff.

[Moshi Kasher]

Right. We're gonna be pushing our Gender Agenda 2027. That's the plan. Right. Nobody's that sophisticated. And I totally, I agree. I get so frustrated. I mean, obviously, you know, it's. Can be bigotry, can be frustrating in all of its forms, but it's so frustrating that, you know, when in the computer programming world, in the tech world, there's a lot of Indian programmers, a lot of computer geniuses that are Indian. But nobody's talking about the grand conspiracy for Indians to control the tech universe. But every time the Jews do some stuff, they go, ah, this is a part of a large nebula. No, I mean, would I deny that Jews are overrepresented in Hollywood circles, in the Hollywood cocktail scene? I would not deny this. It's not like we planned it. It's like that's an industry. Different industries have different groups that go to them and that's the way it is.

[Craig Ferguson]

You know, this is an interesting thing. Have you noticed we talked about the allergy changing and the alcoholism changing? Have you noticed your approach to Judaism changing as you go? You become a parent obviously as well and you know, your perspective on these things. Has it altered?

[Moshi Kasher]

Do you think it's altered? I mean, I, I, I loathe to even get into this part of the conversation, but it's altered a great deal. And it's altered a great deal because for the same reason that a lot of things have altered in our society, that Judaism, Jewish identity has been swallowed whole by political agenda and the self definition of the Jewish culture has become intertwined with the Israeli Palestinian conflict in a way that is so heart wrenching and exhausting. It's hard for me to say exhausting because I'm not living in the most acute pain of that conflict. But the idea that war and politics and government has been infused into my origin story's spiritual and cultural identity is an endless heartbreak and one that I, so I find it harder in some ways to access and in some other ways maybe easier to access. But as I get older, my relationship with my religion and with my, I guess, ethnic background has become more complicated and more difficult because of forces beyond my control. The same thing, by the way, is true of my relationship with being an American citizen. It's more complicated, more heartbreaking because of forces that I'm not directly involved in, but I get, I'm sort of endlessly pulled by the external definitions of what it means to be an American, what it means to be a Jew, what it means to be an American, American Jew. And I, I, I hate being forced into ideological foxholes against my will.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah, I think that that is unfortunately as a great steaming truck of verisimilitude. The, the, I remember when I years ago, I was shooting a movie in Moscow and Russia and I grew up in, in the UK during, in Scotland during the Cold War. And so we were, I was of the belief that the Russians were ready to eat babies and all this stuff you hear about whenever you create the other. They're always eating babies and having, you know, human sacrifices and stuff. And, and I believe that about. Well, I didn't. I mean, you get old enough. Do you think? Well, that's probably not entirely true. But then when I went to Russia and interacted with Russians for the first time in Russia and realizing that a lot of people in Russia were not in any way shape or formula for, for, for the Soviet empire, you know, that they, they weren't Stalinists, they were kind of. And I think that it's. The creation of the other used to be geographic. Like you could create the other because nobody knew who they were. Now you kind of, I think what you do, I think what has done in the, in our digital cartography is you, you take the other and you, you give them a label. And I think the minute you give any group of people a label, then we're getting in trouble. That's when, that's when it gets inhuman. Yeah.

[Moshi Kasher]

So that is, that is step one in empire building and warfare is to identify the enemy and then make them a non human entity. Right. It's a right. They are vermin, they are rats, they are terrorists, they are Nazis, they are pedophiles. Well, some of them were Nazis, to be fair. Some of them were Nazis. Yeah, they did have Nazis. Those people were Nazis, but they were that.

[Craig Ferguson]

Those Nazis. They were Nazis, but they. But I think, I think it's even, it goes back even further than that, or it begins earlier than that. I think what, I think you're right with that, but I think in what it is, is the first rule of the totalitarian, the aspiring tyrant, I think is to go after the comedians. Now I think that what, what you do is you tell, you say which. And, and both the left and the right in this country are very guilty of this. The jokes that you can't tell and the jokes that you can tell and that if you. Which kind of negates the skill of the teller of the joke. Because I am always impressed by a comedian who tells a joke that you can't tell technically, but actually is so good that this individual, he or she can tell that joke. And you think of. There were people like. I love comedians I admired. Like Joan Rivers was a great one for this. She could say a thing that was. That's totally not acceptable, but it was acceptable because the way she put it.

[Moshi Kasher]

Right.

[Craig Ferguson]

She's not the only example. Of course there are many great comedians that do it. But I think when you start saying this area of human life is not subject to humor. That's when totalitarianism begins. Because you can't have an iconoclast. If you want to be an icon, you have to go after the iconoclast. And I feel that.

[Moshi Kasher]

Wipe out the icon. That's really interesting. Yeah. Once you stop having a sense of humor about yourself, that's when you get into the territory of I am, it becomes I am God. You don't make fun of the Lord. That's really interesting. I think, like comedy. I always thought in the early days, like when somebody would start telling a joke about certain topics, the Holocaust, slavery, these things, you'd go, okay, I hope this is your best joke. Right. And then when you see a person pull it off, you go, wow, impressive. And what has happened, I think, with comedy and listen, I would not be a shiller of my book without mentioning that we're now touching every one. Almost every. Almost every topic that's in the book. The six scenes are aa, Judaism, and comedy. That's three out of six so far. And we do a history.

[Craig Ferguson]

Well, I think we should do the whole six. So we've done. We've done Judaism. We're now in comedy. So what do you say about comedy?

[Moshi Kasher]

Well, what's happened now, what feels very obvious to me is, and it's changing so rapidly, I can't even keep track of it, is that people have fallen under the illusion that. To your point. I think your point is well made. Any topic is on the table as long as you can pull it off. But now a lot of comedians think the fact that I'm attempting to pull it off, it validates whatever the topic is. The fact that I was brave enough to tell the Holocaust joke, it doesn't need to be good or funny. It just needs. The real revolutionary work is the fact that I'm telling it. So you see these jokes that are offensive without. Without any point. And on the other side, you see the reaction to that is jokes that are progressive and political and lift every voice and, you know, raise the glass ceiling. As I say, there are jokes on that side that they punch through the glass ceiling so hard they touch the G spot. Like their TED Talk. You find these, like TED Talk esque, humorless. You find a lack of humor on both sides of the ideological comedy aisle from people that think, well, if I'm on a stage and I'm saying some pro choice messaging, it doesn't really have to be funny because it's righteous. And on the other hand, well, if I'm on stage and I'm saying something racist. It doesn't really have to be funny because it's really punk rock that I'm being racist in today's society. So both of these things I say I can't stand. Both of them need to. You can do anything on stage. I say, right, but it's got to be funny. It's got to be good enough.

[Craig Ferguson]

I think that's right. I think that's what it is. But I think my feeling is to add to this and then we'll move from the third part of your book to the last three pieces. Because I feel like that's the structure, our conversations thing today. And I like the idea, but I think there are too many comedians.

[Moshi Kasher]

A thousand percent.

[Craig Ferguson]

There's too many. And not all of the. First of all, crowd work is crowd work, and that's fine. But crowd work is not standout comedy. It's crowd work.

[Moshi Kasher]

Now, see, I liked when you said you could make a joke about any topic. I liked when you said that Jews control Hollywood. I was willing to accept all these things.

[Craig Ferguson]

How dare you.

[Moshi Kasher]

Hollywood cocktail party. I think we all read between the lines. But if you start impugning crowd work. I was just thinking about this today, Craig. It's like, yes, it's stand up comedy. It's a different ver. It's a different. It's a different version of stand up. It's like saying, I was just thinking about this today. Jazz. That's not music. Beethoven, that's music.

[Craig Ferguson]

It's not. Jazz isn't music.

[Moshi Kasher]

No. I thought you were rejecting the analogy. You were. You were supporting the analogy.

[Craig Ferguson]

That's a terribly nocturnic.

[Moshi Kasher]

Like Beethoven writes a. Beethoven writes a symphony and it's written and it's perfect and it's beautiful and that's music. Coltrane writes a riff and then goes off on a tangent and creates something in real time that will never be recreated. And it's also music. It's just a different kind of music. Anyway, listen, I love crowd work very much and I understand.

[Craig Ferguson]

That's why I was needling you. Yeah, I mean, I did. I did bring up for a reason, because. But you. But you're really good at crowd work. You know, there's a. There's a difference. See, I think, yes, Coltrane, you know, riffs on something and it becomes remarkable. But, you know, you don't give a saxophone to someone who's never played one before and they make five different squeaky noises and give it a Netflix special.

[Moshi Kasher]

It's not.

[Craig Ferguson]

It's not right.

[Moshi Kasher]

And P.S. the way that you start playing the saxophone to get to John Coltrane level is you start in band and they say, play this song. Oh, and the Saints, you're not going off on your weird Sun Ra esque squanking riff on day one. Listen, I agree, but you know what I always say. Everybody that says crowd work isn't real comedy hasn't seen a real crowd work. Master at work. I know that you were just fucking with me. And there's a lot of short shrift given to how many horrifying written jokes there are out there. There's a whole lot of people.

[Craig Ferguson]

Totally agree, totally agree. I mean. And I think, though, that what I guess my objection to the idea, the delusion, and you brought it up, it's perfect. You don't start, you don't, day one, go and do crowd work. They, you know, go up and learn how to do the job and then do crowd work. Because if not, you're going to do things like, hi, where are you from? Oh, that's stupid. Did you. Yeah, that's there. I mean, that's gay.

[Moshi Kasher]

That's how my comedy career started. When I started comedy, I was very loose. And my friend Louis Katz, one of the great joke writers, one of the best dirty joke writers in the business, came up to me. He's a dear friend, and this was on early days, he goes, listen, he was maybe a year or two ahead of me. And he goes, you haven't been doing this long enough. He was basically saying, you haven't been doing this long enough to be as confident as you are. He's like, you're not actually as good as you are confident, right? You think you're better than you are because you've got all this confidence. He's like, stop fucking around on stage. Go write jokes for two years. And I somehow I took him seriously. I really did. I folded that instinct in and I went and I just started trying to figure out how to write and then came back with all of these things that I had written and then started to unpack the performer that I would become, which is, I always say, when I'm at my best, I look at my set list, I go, wow, I didn't tell half of these. I didn't do half these bits I planned on doing because I was so, like, floating in space. But 100%, you have to learn how to. It's just like Picasso. You got to learn the form before you can deconstruct the form. So I've now compared myself To Picasso, to Coltrane, to Beethoven. You are the Beethoven.

[Craig Ferguson]

I don't feel like I'm Beethoven in this for a couple of reasons. One, I feel like, you know, take the late night, which is one of the chapters in my sixth chapter book. That late night. I learned how to do late night for this first maybe 18 months of doing it. And then I made a fucking good college try of deconstructing that form for the next eight and a half years. Like throwing everything I could to make it look as fucking absurd as I felt that it was.

[Moshi Kasher]

I really think that's what made your show special was it was like, we've seen this form and now Craig's doing so many. Like, it felt experiential, your show. It felt like a reinterpretation. And I think to me, that's like when I'm excited on stage and when I'm honestly, when I'm excited to watch a performer is when I'm like, oh, wow, this show is one part his act, his or her act, and one part a gift that he or she has given to me as in the audience that will only exist in this universe and or on Instagram for the rest of time and get a Netflix special.

[Unknown Host]

From prioritizing time to keep our bodies active to simply creating space to check on our well being, Happiness Lab listeners take their health very seriously. But when it comes to treating complex issues like heart disease, neurological disorders, or even cancer, the right care can make all the difference. That's why Cleveland Clinic has been elevating world class patient care for over a century. Whether they're raising the bar in heart care, uncovering the mysteries of the brain, or researching new treatments for cancer, Cleveland Clinic continues to redefine what's possible for every breakthrough in health for every care in the world. Explore a wide array of health and wellness information by visiting clevelandclinic.org today.

[Cindy Crawford]

Hi, I'm Cindy Crawford and I'm the founder of Meaningful Beauty. Well, I don't know about you, but like, I never liked being told, oh wow, you look so good for your age. Like, why even bother saying that? Why don't you just say you look great at any age, every age. That's what Meaningful Beauty is all about. We create products that make you feel confident in your skin at the age you are now. Meaningful beauty, beautiful skin at every age. Learn [e-mail].

[Unknown Speaker]

We'Re leaving today and entering a world of Cinderella, castle, sightseeing, Tron Lightse, cycling, jungle cruise, bunning, pirate, swashbuckling, Everest Climbing Dapper Danning.

[Craig Ferguson]

Ding.

[Unknown Speaker]

Soaring, Soaring. Fireworks. Show of. I'm not crying, you're crying. World of favorites. For whatever you love, infinite worlds await at the most magical place on earth. Walt Disney World Resort.

Not everyone who handles your personal information is going to be as careful as you are. And it only takes one mistake to expose it to hackers and identity theft. Maybe that's why there's a new victim of identity theft every five seconds in the United States. Fortunately, there's LifeLock. LifeLock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second for threats to your identity if your identity is stolen. A LifeLock US based restoration specialist will help solve identity theft issues on your behalf, guaranteed or your money back. Plus, all Lifelock plans are backed by the million dollar protection package, meaning LifeLock will reimburse you up to the limits of your plan if you lose money due to identity theft. You can't control how diligent others are with your personal information. But with Lifelock, you can help protect it. Act now and save up to 40% your first year. Call 1-800-LIFELOCK and use promo code iheart or go to lifelock.com iheart for 40% off terms apply.

[Craig Ferguson]

All right, so that's comedy. So we've done alcoholism, Judaism, comedy. What's chapter four? Novella four.

[Moshi Kasher]

Novella four is the rave scene. Oh, did you do that? You're a UK guy.

[Craig Ferguson]

You know, I kind of passed me by. I was sober just before ecstasy was invented, so I kind of missed it, you know.

[Moshi Kasher]

Yeah, it was really well here I did the opposite. I got sober 15 years old and, you know, about maybe nine months. Six months. Nine months into sobriety, I stopped being whipped by this monkey on my back and looked up, you know, my whole illusion, my whole fear. And I'm sure you relate to this. I think every alcoholic relates to this is like, if I stop drinking and getting high, there'll be nothing to do. I'll have nothing to do. And as I like, the problem with that kind of thinking is it's a very diseased brain that produces a thought like that because it stands to reason if you stop drinking, getting high, you'll have nothing to do. It means, ergo, all you do is drink and get high. So, yes, yeah, there's perfect logic to that. If you're a drug addict and alcoholic and at about nine months sober, I looked up and I realized, like, oh My God, I'm 16 years old. I can't go recovery bowling with these Vietnam vets for the rest of my teens and twenties. Like I gotta find something to do. And what the cool part of aa, one of the beautiful parts of my recovery journey was when I lifted my head up out of the bottle and looked out into the world. I suddenly realized that if I stopped drinking and getting high, what there was to do was everything else. And I decided to spend my life trying to find that everything else. And the first thing I found was the rave scene in San Francisco was I walked by a flyer on a telephone pole. It was a big, big, massive rave. This is not like the underground parties that got really famous in the UK where you had to call a number. This was like a big commercial rave. And I got $20 from my mom and I bought a ticket to this rave and I went by myself. I don't know. I truly don't know what drew me there. I wasn't a dancer. I was like a kind of a. Like a gangster. That was my thing. I was like kind of a. Kind of a, you know, like.

[Craig Ferguson]

You were a gangster?

[Moshi Kasher]

No, I mean, I was. I had an accent.

[Craig Ferguson]

I know I had a.

[Moshi Kasher]

No, but I had an accent. Great. I had a southern accent when I was 15. I'm not from the South.

[Craig Ferguson]

Okay.

[Moshi Kasher]

Does that kind of paint a picture?

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah, I. I've told myself some stories too.

[Moshi Kasher]

So I go to this party by myself. I remember I went to an NA meeting the night before. Just before, across the street, there was an NA meeting. I walked across the street. I told all these, like, black, like, middle aged, you know, recovering addicts. Like, the freedom of sobriety is bringing me to that rave across the street. And they were like, we do not know what the fuck you're talking about. And I walked across the street and I had. I remember I had a. I used to use a. A cologne called Escape by Calvin Klein. Okay. It was a terrible scent of the early 90s. And I remember I stuffed this bottle of Escape into a sock as I was waiting in line. And I was like, just in case, you know, I gotta kind of thwap somebody with this sock blackjack that I've built. I mean, that's just like the. This is the brain I'm. I'm bringing into this first rave, like. And I remember I walked into the first, the main. A room of this party called cyberfest in 1995. And I put down the bag containing the potpourri scented blackjack and I walked into this party and I just, like, I had a. As profound a spiritual experience at that first party as I did getting sober. It was a reconstruction. It was A reformation of who I was as a human being. I started pirouetting around the room and dancing, and this couple, this gay couple came up to me and they grabbed me on either side and they. They picked me up in their arms and like, you're beautiful. And I was like. I was like, what? These. These gay hugging on me. And I. So I was like, I know what I gotta do. And I grabbed both of their heads, pulled them close to me, kiss them on the cheek and go, you're beautiful, too. Like, I'm telling you, Craig, in one evening, I turned from, like, identity crisis addled wannabe gangsta who thought he was something that he wasn't to soft pirouetting, techno dancing. The next day, I dyed my hair blonde and twirled it into little Bjork buns and put barrettes in my hair. I mean, was it absurd? It was absurd, but it was a kind of alchemical shifting of my identity that was as profound as anything I've ever experienced. And I spent all of my 20s throwing raves, DJing at raves, and eventually becoming the world's first clean and sober ecstasy dealer at raves. So it got dark later.

[Craig Ferguson]

Okay. Yeah. Oh, that. That went. That went to a little bit of a kind of minor note there. It kind of went well.

[Moshi Kasher]

It's like that. It's kind of like that. In fact, a lot of the book is about that, is like, you know, I go. You go into this thing. It's like religion, you know, you go into a thing, you have a come to Jesus, like, you know, baptism moment. It redefines everything about you. And you spend two decades in it trying to, like, drink it. Like, every scene I've ever been in, I've tried to, like, eat it, you know, Like, I want to own it. I want to be the man. And then by that process of trying to eat it, own it, be the man, it starts to curdle the thing a little bit. And then you're 20 years in and you're going, what was it that I. What was it that I found here? Honestly, the book was awesome because I got to remember all the beautiful magic that I found in each of the universes that I occupied.

[Craig Ferguson]

That's an interesting thing. How did it end then, the rave scene? Was it because of the sober ecstasy or was it something else?

[Moshi Kasher]

It was a little bit of that. It was. You know, there's a funny story. So I started DJing. That was like, you know, that's the alpha, you know, the alpha human at the. In the rave thing is. Is the right. Is the dj. And so I wanted to do that. I wanted to do that.

[Craig Ferguson]

Did you do this? Did you point at people when they were dancing? I feel like that's an essential move.

[Moshi Kasher]

I would do this, like, almost like, I can't hear, and then. Oh, I can hear. And then I point. Then I point.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah, right, okay.

[Moshi Kasher]

And I started to really become defined by that identity. And about 10 years into the rave scene, through a very complicated series of strange events, you know, I was throwing these bigger and bigger parties, and eventually the person I was working with kind of was a con man and stole all the money and absconded. And so I was sort of became kind of Persona non grata within the promoting rave world that I was in. And as a result of that, all the DJ gigs that I'd been getting started to dry up. And I was. And I was also getting older, you know, I was also becoming older. I wasn't 16 anymore.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah, I was trying to send your pointing finger. That's okay.

[Moshi Kasher]

You're like, why are you pointing at the ground?

[Craig Ferguson]

You really can't hear things either. Yeah, that's right.

[Moshi Kasher]

When I started going to raves in San Francisco, I was 16, and I was the youngest person there. I was among the youngest. And when I stopped going about 10 years later, it was the median age. And so there was that. But something very funny happened, which is that I was having this identity crisis, and my ego was just being bruised all the time. I wanted people to want me, but nobody wanted me. This is before comedy, so I didn't get the attention that comedy will provide you. So I just was like. My performing life was drying up. Nobody was booking me anymore, but I still had this identity of like, I am Moshe. DJ Moshe. And that was my name. And I picked up a flyer to Array, right? And I was. I was in the middle of this identity crisis, and there was a DJ on the lineup called DJ E. Moshe. E. Moshe. I go, e Moshe. That's not. You can't. You can't do that. I couldn't become a comedian and call myself E. Craig Ferguson. I think you would have a bit of an issue with that. So I gathered up all the flyers of all the raves I'd ever been to, and I went to this rave and I confronted the guy. I go, where's E. Moshe? And they're like, over there. I go to the guy, go, who are you? And he's like, I'm me. I go, well, I'm Moshe. I'm DJ Moshe, that's me. Oh, yeah, cool. I've heard of you. Yeah, you heard of me. You have my name. And. And I go, well, what's the deal? Like is. Is your name. Are you Jewish? Is your name Moshe? Is your. And he goes, no, I just thought it sounded cool. I go, yeah, sounds cool. It's my cool sounding name. And he's. And I go, look, you gotta. You gotta drop it. Like, you have to drop the name. And he's like, no. And I'm like, no, not Nah. Yes, you gotta drop it. It's my name. And he goes, I think I'll keep it. I go, okay, look, I'll battle you, okay? We'll do a DJ battle, you and me.

[Craig Ferguson]

Oh, my God, this is exciting.

[Moshi Kasher]

Well, it doesn't end as exciting as you want it to. I go, you and me versus the crowd. The crowd decides. Whoever wins keeps the name. And he goes, nah, I think, nah, I think I'll just keep the name. And I'm like, I don't know what to do here. I could either beat this guy to death or impotently walk away. Guess which option I chose. I impotently walked away.

[Craig Ferguson]

That's the right choice.

[Moshi Kasher]

The right choice walked away. And I'm pretty sure I just gave up on DJing altogether in that moment. And to this day, I'm not convinced. I've never seen emotion on a flyer since. I'm not convinced Emosha wasn't just a guardian angel that's sent from the heavens to transfer me from one scene to the next.

[Craig Ferguson]

God works in mysterious ways, is wonders to perform indeed. Is that when you transition out of DJing, and then the next one's got to be comedy, then is it comedy? The next one?

[Moshi Kasher]

Well, comedy was in there, but. But the other. The other world, that. And I do want to say, anecdotally, when I wrote this chapter in the book, I bought myself a DJ controller and I started DJing again 20 years after the fact. If anybody wants to listen to some of my mixes, they're on SoundCloud. But anyway, the next one's Burning man, and they're very related. They're very related. This year I will go, and it will be my 25th time going. I think I've been going for a very long time, and I worked there for a very long time too. So I've seen it go from the thing it was to the thing it is. And I'm watching it become the thing it will be, which is not as exciting as I would hope.

[Craig Ferguson]

I Think it becomes like, like everything. Like punk rock, like Christianity, like anything. It starts off pretty good and then, you know, people get involved and too many people get involved turns into something else. The original idea can get lost in the mix a little bit. I don't know much about Burning man other than I know I always envisage Burning man, and I've never been, but I always imagine it be like 50, 55 year old men out of shape, walking around wearing shirts and no pants. Shirt cooking, I believe it's called.

[Moshi Kasher]

You nailed it. And that is what, that's what keeps me coming back 25 years later.

[Craig Ferguson]

So that is a Burning Man. And then what I'm waiting for it to be. You became a parent and that's what the world is that. When is that what happens?

[Moshi Kasher]

I would say that's the true framing device of the whole thing. Is that really. I didn't even realize it until I was done with the book. Is that really the book is a. And it kind of connects back to what we were talking about earlier, that the book is really an archaeological artifact that I'm leaving to my daughter so that she can know the things that life threw at me. Because. And this is sort of what I talk about this in the. At the end of the book. Because when we were growing up, Craig, this is true for you. It's true for me. Your life felt very accidental. Your life felt very like if I go to this bar with this guy and I try cocaine, then I become a cocaine guy and a drinker, and then I end up in aa and then I meet my wife, and then if I go with this other guy and I smoke pot in the forest with that guy, then I become a hippie, and then I become a bassist in this hippie band, and then I become Fish. It was all this very accidental stumbling from scene to scene. And the Internet and social media has made not that process impossible, but that process much more difficult because culture has become sort of the aperture has shrunk into really one thing. There's this like monoculture that, you know, you pick up your phone and your algorithm tells you what's cool, what's culture, what you should think, what you should believe, how you should dance, all of these things. And so in a way, I didn't do a section on parenting, but in a way, the whole thing is for my daughter to like go, here are all the things that made me me. And I hope, I really hope that you find things that are uniquely you and find a path that. That is uniquely yours. That doesn't get handed to you, but that you stumble into.

[Craig Ferguson]

Do you have a strategy for that for your daughter? Do you. Do you. I mean. I mean, I'm a real hard asset to my kids and social media. I mean, they're on select sites, but very. It's. I'm not cool with it.

[Moshi Kasher]

Do I have a strategy for avoiding social media or for her.

[Craig Ferguson]

I mean, like her parenting strike? Yeah.

[Moshi Kasher]

You start to realize. I'm sure you realize this too. Like, a lot of it is about exposing them to things you like and then seeing if they like them too. And then you start going after about 10 activities, they're all of a sudden seven, and you're like, oh, my God, I'm like, running out of time here to, like, I can't. I can't do judo and surfing and camping and circus. Eventually they're going to run out of options, and they're never. I keep waiting for the thing where my daughter looks at me and goes, this is me, you know, And I haven't. She's seven. She's young. But I keep. I'm just curious of that moment because it didn't happen for me until I was much older. That moment where you click into your kind of like your destiny. Like, was that you? Was that comedy for you? Was that the only time?

[Craig Ferguson]

No, not at all. Not at all. I still don't. I'm not entirely convinced it's something I want to get involved in, but the. The. My oldest kid, my son, when he was about, like, very young, like a toddler, he became fascinated with early Disney. You know, the old, like, the real old kind of, you know, the black and white kind of early Disney stuff. And he would watch it over and over and over again. And he was always fascinated with anime. He loved cartoons. All kids love cartoons, of course, but he loved them in a way I had never seen them love. He's now. He graduated from the School of Visual Arts, New York, and he runs an independent animation studio with his friends. That's the dream, Craig.

[Moshi Kasher]

That's the dream. That is the dream that your child goes, here's who I am. And not only do I love it, I'm gonna be great at it. I will be great at it. That, to me, I'm jealous of that. I mean, listen, I'm so excited to see what the world brings to my daughter's consciousness and life. I don't put any pressure on her like that. It's all internal, me looking at her.

[Craig Ferguson]

No, I didn't either.

[Moshi Kasher]

Half of my experience of her is looking at things she does and going, oh, is this like me? Oh, is she going to turn out like me? Oh, like, she's got a lot of me in her. But I think that's so awesome that your son, like, early on found that, like, little tickle that became his life. And I think about that, by the way, with comedy, like, I can't leave. This is what's different about this seen versus the other ones, is that I'm 22 years into comedy. I pay all of my bills with it. This is permanent. So I had better find a way. I'm not going back to grad school. It's too late. So I had better find a way to make it feel refreshing, make it feel useful and meaningful and not. That's a challenge for me. I don't know about you, I have a comparison.

[Craig Ferguson]

I have a perfect solution for you. Stop using the word comedy.

[Moshi Kasher]

What do you use?

[Craig Ferguson]

Because, well, I do comedy. But I think that what you are, and this is one of the reasons why I hate to say this, because it sounds so part of the Hollywood cocktail circuit, but I am a fan of you. But I am a fan of you. One of the reasons why I wanted to talk to you today. You are an interesting person. You erudite and a thoughtful, and you have a brain which causes you difficulty, and you use everything in your power to navigate through the universe. And comedy is a very useful tool for that. But why limit yourself? And I think the good comedians. Good comedians to me. No, I'm not talking about the ones that we don't need to talk about. But. But good comedians to me, are just Socratic philosophers. That's all they are. The history goes all the way back to Epictetus and before. And what it is, is you see how you perceive the world and you present it in such a way that other people are stimulated by it. But comedy doesn't have to be the only way to do it. It's just. It's a convenient platform for a philosopher, which is what I believe you are, and it's what I aspire to be. You're a philosopher who struggles in the world, and your perception, the absurdities of it, provide you with comedy. But there are particularly, and I noticed this after I became a parent as well, there is an incandescent level of beauty that I never loved anyone until my first kid was born. I thought I did, but I didn't. I was like. It was just, you know, it was like, oh, you're nice, but. But when my first son was born. Maybe not even when he was born, like about six months in. Because when the little babies, like, ah, but when they start, you know, being human, there's a whole different perspective. And one of the. I have a tattoo here. I have a lot of tattoos, but this little tattoo here is where I wear my watch. And when I forget to wear my watch, that's still there. What it is, is the planet Saturn. And the planet Saturn is the bringer of old age. So even though if I'm not wearing my watch, I can look at it and go, of course, was the God. Yeah, yeah. And, and right. But in, in the, the Planet Suite, we're talking about music in the Planet Suite by Holst, you know, that's go like down, down, down, down for Mars, the God of war and all that. And there is a piece of music called Saturn because he does all of it. Like you wrote your book about all these things. He wrote his suite of music about all the different planets. And in the piece of music, Saturn, the bringing of old age. It's a very odd, weird piece of music. It's almost like. It's like an ambient, Brian Eno type piece of music. It's a very strange piece of music. And the aging process, I think, is that it's weird. And I think that the only. The way I stay enthusiastic about things is the fact that it's just getting stranger. You know, I now have friends, contemporaries. I'm 60, I'm going to be 63 years old in about a month. I have friends who just like fucking die. Just like fall over and die. I'm not talking about drug overdoses and stuff. I'm just like life overdoses or. Yeah, they just run out of, you know. Yeah. And it's.

[Moshi Kasher]

Right.

[Craig Ferguson]

And I think that if I have any delight in. In making and having a little bit of the successes that allows you to do the thing that you do, but also do other things too. I think you've been doing that since you were 16. I think that's, that's entirely, you know, like, I will be a DJ Moshe. Although, and I have to say, and I was going to say this when you brought it up, I never heard of DJ Emotion. Where the. Is DJ Emotion now? So, you know, a lot of good.

[Moshi Kasher]

Well, he's, he's probably doing comedy now. Probably.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Moshi Kasher]

Hey, by the way, Craig, what you said is, is, is beautiful. It's like, it's one of the things and, and I do need to say Hollywood Cocktail party that I'm a fan of Yours as well, and have been for a long time. But. But what you're saying is so true. Like, I've been thinking about aging lately myself because, like, I'm at the age where the youth is start. I can. It's starting to not be applicable to me and I want to fight that. I'm still in the fight it phase, you know, like. Like cling. And one of the things I keep. And I feel this way with my career and I feel this way with my life path, I feel this way with the raising of my daughter is like there is no way out, but through. There is no. I can fight aging, but I cannot stop it. I can. There isn't a way out but death. And so a thing that I am unable to affect any meaningful leverage upon, I may as well embrace. I'm still, by the way, figuring out how to embrace it. I'm not going to claim that I am, but I'm starting to process that idea. Like, life goes in one direction. Time. I mean, I don't fully understand time and space, but it seems to me that time is linear and you must only continue to walk because the other option is to fall off the edge, I think so.

[Craig Ferguson]

I think though the time is linear physically, I think that that's correct. But I think physicality is not all there is. I'm not talking about life after death or anything like that. I mean, I don't know anything about that, just like no one else doesn't. But. But I. I do kind of. I do kind of. Am I. I am interested in the. In the notion of. I don't know if you. You ever. You familiar with Brian Cox? Dr. Brian Cox? The handsome.

[Moshi Kasher]

The handsome scientist.

[Craig Ferguson]

The handsome scientist. Very handsome, very cool, very clever. I think he's an astrophysicist, but I'm not sure. I mean, he's some kind of expert on all things time. And he did a beautiful show for the BBC about time somewhere in space. Time, it's called. If you get a chance to find it, you should watch it. It's beautiful because it's. Because it is absolutely poetic. And he talks about time and he does a very interesting thing about. Because I suppose it's wrapped up with Einstein, but he gets into a supersonic jet and flies west into the sunset. And of course, he's flying west into the sunset faster than the speed of sand. And as he flies into the sunset, the sun starts to rise because he's traveling fast in a direction where it. So it's really about where you are in the Universe affects what time is.

[Moshi Kasher]

Yeah.

[Craig Ferguson]

In fact, I think it's called the theory of relativity.

[Moshi Kasher]

I understand that theory completely. That's. The sixth section of my book is about the theory of relativity and my work on it. Do you know this? This blew my mind and I don't understand it. So don't ask me to explain it. But I'm sure Brian Cox talks about it in this special, which is that time, the linear thing that we are describing, the thing that makes us older and the thing that makes the sun go up and down. And space in, like, the thing that you look up and it's up there, but it's also over there and down is the same thing. The thing that makes your grandma old and die is the thing that contains Saturn. It's like, what the fuck does that mean? But according to these theoretical physicists, that is true.

[Craig Ferguson]

Well, I think if you are wrestling with those questions, then by all means do crowd work. But don't just do crowd.

[Moshi Kasher]

Amen. Amen.

[Craig Ferguson]

Amen is a good word to end with. It's great talking to you and catching up with you again. I love talking to you and I do remain a big fan. You are the only crowd work guy that I can watch and go, all.

[Moshi Kasher]

Right, I suppose that's. That's nice, but there are. There are some other masters out there. Listen, I'm gonna leave you. I've loved talking to you. I always do. And I'll leave you with. We never discuss the sixth scene, so I'll leave it with you so that you. So you can ask me back someday. We can talk about it for an hour. But it's the world.

[Craig Ferguson]

We start with the sixth episode.

[Moshi Kasher]

That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Craig Ferguson]

Maybe you can write another book about space time. Right. About the six other things. Six other things.

[Moshi Kasher]

That's interesting. I'd have to get a lot of living done. Anyway, it's the world of the deaf and American Sign Language. My mother and father and all my siblings.

[Craig Ferguson]

Of course. Your parents were deaf.

[Moshi Kasher]

Yeah. And I spent a long time as a sign language interpreter. So it goes through the whole history of sign language and American Sign Language and the education of the deaf and. Anyway, the book's called Subculture Vulture and I'm very proud of it. And that's all I said.

[Craig Ferguson]

It's really good. I. I can't speak sign language, but. Or can't sign Sign language. But I. I used to be a bit better at it because I had a. I was helping a guy get sober who was deaf.

[Moshi Kasher]

Oh, wow.

[Craig Ferguson]

And so the only thing we could do was, you know, he could rip, lip, read a bit. But he was. I mean, he was profoundly difficult, you know, so you could do that. And. And he taught me some sign language. I've forgotten all. Most of it. The only thing I remember is British Sign language is a different language to American Sign Language. Fascinating. I thought it was weird. And then when I heard that this was weird enough. That's weird. That. Which I think is very witty and that's odd. That's weird. And. Yeah, and I think it's. It's a very funny thing saying language. It makes me laugh. It's clever and witty and it is very witty.

[Moshi Kasher]

It is very funny. And it used to be much more in your face. I won't do it. But I want you to guess what the sign for Asian and Chinese was when I was a kid.

[Craig Ferguson]

It's probably not good.

[Moshi Kasher]

Thankfully, deaf Chinese immigrants moved to America and were like, what the fuck is the sign for Chinese? No, we've got our own sign. Okay. And they've updated the language, but all that and more.

[Craig Ferguson]

All right, get out of here. It's great to see you.

[Moshi Kasher]

You're the best. Yeah, great seeing you too. I hope I see you again somewhere along the space time continuum.

[Craig Ferguson]

You will. Somewhere in space.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. Spring is in full swing, so take some time for self care this spring now through April 22. Buy two self care items and save $2. Shop in store or online for self care essentials like Tom's Toothpaste soft Soap, Liquid hand soap, Colgate Optic White toothpaste and Colgate Total toothpaste. And save $2 when you buy two participating items offer ends April 22. Promotions may vary, restrictions apply. Visit albertsons or safeway.com for more details.

[Craig Ferguson]

If money is a taboo topic and nobody wants to talk about it, how can we be educated on something we're unwilling to talk about? April is financial literacy month. Black Tech Green money is where culture meets capital. Each week I sit down with black entrepreneurs and leaders to share their blueprint for building generational wealth through tech innovation and ownership. Once we know more, we can have more. One thing is we tell ourselves clients is the more that you learn, the more that you earn. But you have to be willing to learn to hear this and more game changing insight. Listen to black tech green Money on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Unknown Speaker]

70% of Americans are living from paycheck to paycheck. Not black people, not brown people, everybody. And whether you're white, black, red, brown, or yellow, you want to see some more green? Can I get an amen?

[Craig Ferguson]

Hey.

[Unknown Speaker]

This is financial literacy awareness. This month, tune in to Money and Wealth with John O'Brien, a podcast that breaks down financial freedom in a way that's real, relatable, and rooted in empowerment. From rebuilding your credit to starting your wealth journey, I give you all the tools to rise. I'm gonna break down how the modern economy works. This is what they never taught you in school. You're not dumb and you're not stupid. It's what you don't know that you don't know is killing you, but you think you know. To hear this and more practical wisdom, open your free iHeartRadio app, search money and wealth with John O'Brien and start listening today.

[Moshi Kasher]

Ever wonder what it would be like to be mentored by today's top business leaders? My podcast, this Is Working can help with that. Here's advice from Google CMO Lorraine Twohill on how to treat AI like a partner.

[Craig Ferguson]

I see AI as an incredible co pilot. You may use different tools or toys.

[Cindy Crawford]

To get the work done, but AI.

[Craig Ferguson]

Is just the latest flavor of that. You're still the judge of what good looks like.

[Moshi Kasher]

I'm Dan Roth, LinkedIn's editor in chief. On my podcast, this is Working Leaders Share Strategies for Success. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.