Craig Ferguson (2:34)

This is me, Craig Ferguson. I'm inviting you to come and see my brand new comedy hour. Well, it's actually it's about an hour and a half and I don't have an opener cause these guys cost money. But what I'm saying is I'll be on stage for a while anyway. Come and see me live on the Pants on Fire tour in your region. Tickets are on sale now and we'll be adding more as the Tour continues throughout 2025 and beyond. For a full list of dates, go to thecraigfergusonshow.com See you on the road, my dears. My name is Craig Ferguson. The name of this podcast is Joy. I talk to interesting people about what brings them happiness. Hello, everyone. It is I, Craig Ferguson. Welco. Welcome to the Joy Podcast. Coming to you from London, England. Well, I'm in London, England. My guest today is Naut Lynn. Although she was born in London, England, which is a strange coincidence, not really. She's a true American genius and someone that I really get a kick out of, and I think you will too. Please welcome the wonderful Nellie Mackay. I am very excited to be talking to you again, Nellie. It's been. It's been a while. It'. It's actually been a minute or two. Where are you? Is it Christmas where you are? It looks very, very festive behind you.

Nellie McKay (4:03)

It's always Christmas. And in fact, I don't know if you ever worked in piano bars, but I once got fired from one for playing Christmas music in July. But that's the best time to do it.

Craig Ferguson (4:14)

I've never worked at piano bars, but let me ask you this. Have you worked at a lot of piano bars?

Nellie McKay (4:18)

Oh, yeah. And I still think about it because it's like the Beatles in Hamburg. You gotta play eight hours a night or, you know, you actually, you probably know this, but you perform less once you go pro.

Craig Ferguson (4:29)

Oh, yeah, no, that's for sure. Yeah. Because then it's always for money. And you're like, nah, I don't. I'm not doing it for. But I don't know what I do. You kind of. You're kind of on all the time really, aren't you? You just kind of talk. I just talk. All I do is talk. Let me ask you about the piano bar, though, because I'm kind of interested. There's a piano bar that I keep walking by. I don't know if you know, it's. It's on the Upper east side in Manhattan, I think it's called. Hang on a second, Megan, what's the name of that piano bar? Randy's Brandy's. Brandy's Piano Bar on the Upper east side. Do you know it?

Nellie McKay (5:09)

No. Maybe it changed names.

Craig Ferguson (5:11)

It might have done. But every time I walk by, there's a lot of fabulous looking men outside smoking cigarettes and then they go back in and start singing again. It seems like Bohemian Rhapsody is very popular in there. I want to go in. Maybe I should.

Nellie McKay (5:25)

Can you play piano?

Craig Ferguson (5:27)

No, I can't play piano, but I can sing raucously with a bunch of middle aged gay men and I feel that's enough.

Nellie McKay (5:35)

Well, and you can do their hair too.

Craig Ferguson (5:37)

Yes, I can. Let me ask you this. Are you in rehearsal right now? Are you in rehearsal in New York?

Nellie McKay (5:44)

No, we start right after Labor Day. It's like going back to school.

Craig Ferguson (5:48)

Oh, right, because. What's the name of the play? It's a new play, isn't it, that you're doing?

Nellie McKay (5:54)

It's called let's Love.

Craig Ferguson (5:56)

Oh, that sounds upbeat. Is it upbeat?

Nellie McKay (6:00)

Well, I think it should be called Congestion Tax because I hate the congestion tax so much. But I'm going to work on Ethan. Yeah, There's a lot I'm going to do when he's not around for matinees.

Craig Ferguson (6:12)

So I wouldn't go confessing that right now at this early stage in the game. But Ethan Cohen, who wrote the play, I mean, he's written some very dark stuff. I mean, he did the screenplay for Fargo and no country for Old man and you know, is it. But this. Is this more cheerful or is there a lot of people getting killed with oxygen containers and stuff?

Nellie McKay (6:37)

I want there to be. I suggested that. I suggested after every love scene I could stab someone.

Craig Ferguson (6:43)

Yes.

Nellie McKay (6:45)

But you know, there's so many reasons. There's that Wayans Brothers movie, I think, is it called Scary Movie or something, where people just start going on a rampage and the Hasidic guy comes over to people in the audience, starts stabbing him. He's like, you talk during Schindler's List, you know, like there's just so many random.

Craig Ferguson (7:07)

You can stab people. I think it's. I don't know that it's allowed to actually go out and stab people who are in the audience. But you know what, what theater is in. Tell me that because maybe it will be okay. Where are you?

Nellie McKay (7:19)

It's on 20th Street. So I say anything goes.

Craig Ferguson (7:22)

Yeah, I think below 34th Street. Yeah, I think you can stab members of the audience. I think that's all right. It's an old bylaw in New York. We should probably find out. Do you know, I want to ask you about. Because I'm in London as long as you can tell. Behind me, if you look out the window, you could probably see there are chimney sweeps and singing urchins and all sorts of people with their thumbs behind their lapels. You're from London, aren't you? Weren't you born here?

Nellie McKay (7:52)

Well, I was born there, yes. So I have dual citizenship. That would seem like a fail safe, but I've heard that the first on the nuclear bomb list is London.

Craig Ferguson (8:03)

Is it really like if it broke.

Nellie McKay (8:05)

Out, they say that's the first place they would hit.

Craig Ferguson (8:07)

Why would they go for London first? I guess. Well, it's close. It's close if they're going to be coming. I don't think about it much. I used to think about it a lot in the 80s, but that was kind of way before your time. See, when I was like 20, when you were born and during the 80s, we were always terrified of nuclear wars. Do you worry about nuclear wars?

Nellie McKay (8:31)

Yeah, and I shouldn't. I should be the last person because I know what humans do. So I should be hoping for annihilation. But all these people who, they like to go kayaking, they're not worried about it.

Craig Ferguson (8:44)

Yeah. Well, I think if you're kayaking, would you raise a fair point? If you are kayaking, then it's unlikely that you'll be in a place that's going to be nuclear attacked because kayaking by its very nature is not usually done in central London.

Nellie McKay (8:59)

You would think that, but they have all kind of sites all over the world. In fact, you can stay in bunkers on Airbnb.

Craig Ferguson (9:06)

Well, no way. Are we happy about this or are we sad about this? And also as a follow up kind of question as well, why this hatred of people kayaking is there. Do you have a problem with kayakers?

Nellie McKay (9:21)

Yes. I don't know why they're so smug.

Craig Ferguson (9:26)

Yeah, I kind of feel the same. And I'll take a lot of hate for this, but I kind of feel the same way about people who cycle. Not, not the E bikes, but people who wear all the outfits and the tiny little hats and stuff. I can't do it.

Nellie McKay (9:44)

Just their tight butts alone that they. Yeah, go ahead and I'll.

Craig Ferguson (9:47)

Yeah, they kind of wave them in your face, literally kind of saying, this is what you don't have. That's what I feel like is going on. Let me ask you this. If you don't kayak and you don't bicycle, how do you get around New York City then?

Nellie McKay (9:59)

A hitchhike mostly.

Craig Ferguson (10:02)

That would be very dangerous. That would Be a very dangerous thing to do.

Nellie McKay (10:08)

Why do you think it got so dangerous? My mother used to hitchhike, and one time she had a guy, he drove her out to the desert, and he said, I've had a lot of snow, Spanish fly. And she had to kind of fend him off and then run through the cactus and the dark and wilderness to get away from him. But mostly in the 60s and previous, it was a legitimate way to get around. And there was a lot less fear for both the people picking up the hitchhikers and the hitchhikers. What changed?

Craig Ferguson (10:34)

See, I have a theory about this that may not fit into the narrative. I don't think it has changed. I think the coverage of it has changed. So I think all of the scary shit was going on before, but it wasn't so, like, hyperbolic all over the place. I think people have been dreadful for a very long time, and I don't think that they're getting any worse. I think they're just getting more noticed. There's more news to fill. There's more kind of stories to tell. Every tabloid, every Instagram account, people have got to tell a story. But I want to just bring you back to your mother and what happened.

Nellie McKay (11:13)

Oh, I guess she got out. I mean, one time they found a gal who had been hurt, and I think she had been. Then her body had been burned.

Fox One Advertiser (11:22)

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Nellie McKay (11:23)

And all they found, they said she was a redhead who wore hoop earrings. And I think that kind of took it out of my nana. And then when my mom called a couple of days later, she was like, oh, Robin. She was from England. Oh, Robin. But, you know, I mean, it's the kind of thing, it makes your heart stop. So I guess eventually my mom, you know, she stopped doing it. I think one time the cops picked her up and they said, this is illegal, and they drove her back home. And I'm getting all these stories mixed up, but she fell asleep to the sound of the dishwasher, and she felt so safe. It was probably one of the earliest dishwashers. And then one time she lived with a guy. I think he was making meth. Again, I'm probably getting all these stories mixed up, but the cooker, you cook it, right? And it set the house on fire. And so then again, the firemen and the police came, and so she hid under a pile of laundry. She actually fell as, and they didn't catch her. You should talk to my mom. She has much better stories.

Craig Ferguson (12:21)

I feel like I perhaps should talk to your mom, or at least The FBI should talk to your mom. So it must be quite difficult for your mom, if she had such a colorful young life herself, to be a disciplinarian with you. Was she very strict with you when you were little?

Nellie McKay (12:39)

But, you know, it's no fun being the disciplinarian, being the organizational one. It's fun being, you know. And she always had a taste. She was on tour in Hong Kong with Albert Finney and she wound up getting in an argument with him at a bar, which is the best thing you can do with Albert Finney.

Craig Ferguson (12:59)

Ms. De Rigueur, I would have thought.

Nellie McKay (13:01)

Yeah. So you gotta find somebody to manage your tour who, you know, who doesn't want to go have fun, you know, because, you know, who enjoys filling out forms and checking in the hotels and.

Craig Ferguson (13:14)

Does anyone enjoy that? I don't know that people enjoy that.

Nellie McKay (13:18)

Yes.

Craig Ferguson (13:18)

Oh, really? I don't know. I've never been good.

Nellie McKay (13:22)

What do you call it? A fetish? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Craig Ferguson (13:25)

This is a king. People who like doing, like doing hotel filling in forms. I guess if, like, if you're a. If you. If you're used to tax forms and stuff. Do you do your own taxes?

Nellie McKay (13:38)

Hell, no. I don't even know they're gonna get me. Yeah. I should evade them, right? Like Joan Baez.

Craig Ferguson (13:45)

I don't think you should evade your taxes. It never goes well for anyone to evade your taxes.

Nellie McKay (13:52)

I just heard about Percy Sledge. Because we're thinking about a tune of his for the Ethan show, and apparently he got in trouble for that. And also he had to have a fundraiser for medical care. Craig. After A Man Loves a Woman, he had to have a fund. He lived in Baton Rouge. I mean, that's like a fifth of the price of stuff in New York. He had to have a fundraiser for medical care. We should move to your house.

Craig Ferguson (14:18)

Why would. Percy Sledge would. Percy Sledge would not be comfortable in my house. He's not still around anyway, Percy Sledge, is he?

Nellie McKay (14:25)

No, but I am. But it's just in this country, I mean, I know you're having trouble with the elites going after the National Health, which used to be sacrosanct in Britain, but I mean, here we don't even pretend. You're just on your own.

Craig Ferguson (14:40)

Wait a minute. I must. I feel I may have misled you. I am in London visiting. I do not live in London. I'm in London right now, but I live in New York City.

Nellie McKay (14:53)

Oh, that's nice.

Craig Ferguson (14:55)

Yes. So I'll be coming to see the show. Cool. Yeah. Of course, I don't like to go below, you know, below Midtown. But I'll do it for you. I'll go and see the show. Yes.

Nellie McKay (15:08)

What's in Midtown?

Craig Ferguson (15:10)

The barrier between the Upper east side, where I live, and downtown, which I'm happy to go to, but I don't like going to midtown. It's too busy.

Nellie McKay (15:18)

No, you're on the Upper east, so that means that must be the new hip district.

Craig Ferguson (15:22)

No, I think it's more the hip replacement district. It's the. It's a little more kind of genteel and quiet. That's why I like it. No, the hip districts are Brooklyn. Brooklyn is hep. Williamsburg is hip. Where are you? What neighborhood are you in? Don't say that. But just like general area.

Nellie McKay (15:46)

Oh. I mean, I can't tell you. And it's not your race, it's your class, because you can't help it. Once people reach a certain level, yoga studios and cupcake shops appear. And that's just. It's just. How, Craig. How can there be so many people. I know, they buy up apartments like his real estate deals. How can there be so many people who can Pay, you know, 8,000amonth in New York, you know, so they're always coming for you. So you got. Yeah, you got. You gotta hide, you know, you gotta hide.

Craig Ferguson (16:20)

So where are you hiding? Where. Where's your neighborhood? Give me a rough idea. Give me a rough idea.

Nellie McKay (16:27)

I think I'm gonna be. I'm gonna be pretty close to the theater, you know?

Craig Ferguson (16:31)

Right. That's enough. Don't tone it. Don't tone it.

Nellie McKay (16:34)

Yeah, but get this. I mean, Yul Brynner, when he was performing. My mom used to work for Yul Brynner. She was his second assistant. So he would come off of the stage after. Shall we dance? And go right to the oxygen machine and just go. And then his first assistant was Claire. So he would say, claire, I don't know how to talk it. Claire.

Craig Ferguson (16:54)

Clara, I need.

Nellie McKay (16:58)

I need 44 inch rubber bands from Fortnum and Masons. And she would say, yes, Mr. Brinner. Robin, Mr. Brynner needs 4th inch rubber bands from Fortnum and Masons. He says, no, Clara, I need half inch rubber bands from Fortnum and Masonshear. Oh, yes, Mr. Brynner. Robin, Mr. Brynner needs. And this isn't this great. It's really living.

Craig Ferguson (17:20)

It is, but what do you need those rubber bands for? What did Joe Brynner need the rubber bands for?

Nellie McKay (17:26)

I don't know. But what brought me to this is between matinee and evening he would go be with Marlena wherever he was staying. I don't think he got a lot of rest. And then afterwards I think after the show he always liked to wind down. Man, people can really kill themselves with the performing thing.

Craig Ferguson (17:46)

Well, you can do that affair with Marlena thing. Yeah, the affair. Was it Marlena Dietrich? Was that who it was?

Nellie McKay (17:53)

Yes. And mommy thinks that it didn't work because they're too much alike from my definition.

Craig Ferguson (17:58)

Yeah, I think that that's possible. Having not met either one of them, I'm going to decide that that's actually what happened and they were too alike. Hello, this is Craig Ferguson and I want to let you know I have a brand new stand up comedy special out now on YouTube. It's called I'm so happy and I would be so happy if you checked it out. To watch the special, just go to my YouTube channel at the Craig Ferguson show and it's just right there. Just click it and play it and it's free. I can't. Look, I'm not gonna come around your house and show you how to do it. If you can't do it, then you can't have it. But if you can figure it out, it's yours.

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Craig Ferguson (20:37)

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Craig Ferguson (21:15)

I mean, having had a parent who was so involved in show business, like in that kind of like really inside the world, do you think that, that your work travels across and one of the things I love about your music is it travels between so many wildly varying genres. It feels like sometimes it's like Trent Reznor was born in the night. It was working in the 1920s. Do you know what I mean? It's like you can get very dark and also have a. Ooh, a. It's, it's wonderful how you do that. Do you think that the diversity of your influence is to do with your parents? Because your father's a very kind of clever playwright as well, isn't he?

Nellie McKay (21:57)

Oh, yeah. I think there's something called genetic memory. So who knows how far it goes back? I mean, I don't know if you've done any. I've done very little, but I do think that maybe some of my family were part of the Pirates of Penzance.

Craig Ferguson (22:11)

Okay.

Nellie McKay (22:12)

And so that's why I, we, you know, there's lots of ways to be a modern day pirate. And you know, you gotta live out to live outside the law. You must be honest.

Craig Ferguson (22:23)

There has to be a certain order amongst thieves and performers. For sure. My wife always says circus folk. We are circus folk. And so the rules are a little different. You know.

Nellie McKay (22:37)

Well, what does she do?

Craig Ferguson (22:38)

Yeah, circusy. She's a little circusy. Rides horses. She can ride a horse with one leg and stuff like that.

Nellie McKay (22:47)

No.

Craig Ferguson (22:49)

Yeah, yeah. Can you do that? Do you ever ride horses around downtown neighborhoods?

Nellie McKay (22:55)

Oh, no, I just want to pet them.

Craig Ferguson (22:58)

Well, I think that's perfectly acceptable. You can pet horses. You're quite vocal about animal rights and stuff, actually, as I remember. Aren't they. We bonded over veganism, as I recall, the last time I spoke to you.

Nellie McKay (23:11)

Oh, that's right.

Craig Ferguson (23:12)

Yeah.

Nellie McKay (23:12)

Well, how is it going for you, Craig?

Craig Ferguson (23:15)

Well, I'll be honest. There was a time where I returned to the harsh world of the carnivore. I'm not gonna lie to you, Nellie. During the lockdown, I. I went beef and chicken a little bit for a while, but I'm back and. And I have what's interesting. I don't know if this is of any interest to you, but it certainly was to me. For the first time in my life. I got a medical exam and the doctor said, your cholesterol is up. You need to go back to your vegan diet. And I said, or take statins. And I was like, oh, no, I don't want to take statins if I can avoid them, thanks. So I have returned to the way of the hair before. I'm back.

Nellie McKay (23:56)

That's wonderful.

Craig Ferguson (23:57)

Yeah, but it was a. You know, it was a ride. I imagine you're still where you are with it, right? You've remained true to the cause.

Nellie McKay (24:05)

Oh, it's a struggle every day because everywhere you go, you know, there's this or that. Yeah, of course. I think it's very good that you're honest, because, you know, we live in a world where there's constant temptation in so many ways and so many people, it can be hard to understand. Other people, like the pianist Mary Lou Williams, had a severe gambling addiction. That's something I've never had.

Craig Ferguson (24:28)

Yeah, me, not at all.

Nellie McKay (24:29)

But I. You know, so it's. It can be hard to get inside that if I play a casino or something. I mean, to me, it just seems like such a scam, you know, it's such an obvious, I ain't waiting around for that slot machine, but everyone has their thing. And I think especially the more pressure you're under, you're under a thoughtful profession. I mean, if I could make a decent living just working for the Park Service, you know, an equivalent, I mean, I would. It's so nice not to think, you know, and you gotta be witty, and you've Got to make decisions and that's tough on you. So, you know, everybody's under some kind of pressure and food is such a. Oh, it's just. It's something you can rely upon and it's home and family. It's tricky. It's so, you know, we all got to be kind to one another and ourselves.

Craig Ferguson (25:22)

That's a wonderful thing to say about it. I feel so much better, you know, if the musician thing hadn't worked out, I think some kind of therapy or spiritual guide position for you would have been great. I really feel a little better having listened to you say that.

Nellie McKay (25:39)

But, Craig, don't you think that if you were working, say, I know someone who worked in a prison, right, and it's this tricky thing because the worst criminals aren't in prison. They die on, you know, the maximum count bedsheets and they go to the fanciest restaurants and they live lives of luxury. However, if I worked in a prison, I can just see. So, I mean, people would, you know, I'd be letting people out of their cells left and right and then they'd probably stab me, you know.

Craig Ferguson (26:07)

Yes, they. They probably would.

Nellie McKay (26:09)

Have you ever done a gig in a prison?

Craig Ferguson (26:11)

I've never done a gig in one. I've visited friends in prison, but I've never. I've never played a prison.

Nellie McKay (26:17)

Who did you visit?

Craig Ferguson (26:18)

If you can say, I can't really, but. But it was. It was in a prison in Scotland and it was a friend of mine who I was actually a guitarist I was in a band with, and he got up to some nonsense and he went to a very harsh prison in Scotland and I went to visit him. It was the only time I've been inside a prison, actually. And I thought, well, gosh, I really would never like to come back here ever again, if that's at all possible, if I can avoid ever coming here. And it was at that point, Nelly, that I stopped cooking mess in the washing machine.

Nellie McKay (26:54)

But, well, where is meth legal? Is there any place?

Craig Ferguson (26:57)

I don't think it is. And I don't think it. But no, I don't think it. I don't think there's anywhere like you can go. And they say, oh, yes, have a six pack of meth or people take it. I don't think it is. Weed is legal, but I don't know that that's helped at all. I used to be very kind of like, yeah, everything should be legal, but I'm not sure it's helped at all. All. But I don't take anything? Do you take anything?

Nellie McKay (27:20)

Oh, the only one working. Oh, interesting, really, because socially, it actually, it bothers people, but they're always like, do you need a drink? I said, why would I need a drink? Now I'm happy. But working is. You know, it's that thing. I had, a bed, you know. Craig, actually, it's funny you mentioned this, because I got two things. First of all, I had a bad gig in front of Mike Nichols, who had seen me at a thing. My mother wrote me this pristine joke, you know, and it went over so well. So then Mike Nichols, he was like a butterfly at my side. And he kept saying things I didn't know. Like he was saying me directing Beckett is like you reciting Faux Coup. I didn't know what he was saying, so I just went, ha, ha, ha. Anyway, so he came with Diane Sawyer to do the gig. I was like, I'm a dropout man, you know? But he showed up with Diane Sawyer. And I worked so hard on these big band arrangements, not thinking, you gotta get your. So I didn't. So instead, I bombed the Flop sweat, you know, flooded downtown. And he came over to the table afterwards, the meet and greet, him and Diane, and I could just tell it was over. And then he died. So then you realize you either gotta get your material or you gotta have some substances. But the second time was when I played a prison in West Virginia and I had my gig bag. So I had all kinds of embarrassing things, including a couple of little vodka bottles. So who knew that? I think that's a felony in West Virginia to take that into a prison. Sure. But the worst thing they did is they've now barred me from ever setting foot in a West Virginia prison, which doesn't entirely feel like a bad thing.

Craig Ferguson (29:02)

It's not a punishment, really, anyway.

Nellie McKay (29:04)

But, yeah, only on the job, you know. But, Craig, you gotta make people happy. Whatever it takes.

Craig Ferguson (29:11)

Yeah, it's true. But whenever I, you know, used alcohol, alcohol was my thing. Whenever I used that in performing, I thought I was doing great with my performance. But everyone has assured me that since I stopped taking alcohol, my performing skills have improved immeasurably. So, I don't know, I feel like I couldn't do my job when I was high. But I think with musicians, it's a little different, I think, because they can get into a groove. I certainly know a lot of musicians who play in a very altered state a lot of the time. Some very successful people. But then again, I know others who can't perform at all. Unless they're clean.

Nellie McKay (29:55)

Right. Well, I know Brett Butler. I think it took alcohol to be able to get her to start her whole career. For instance, I love her memoir.

Craig Ferguson (30:04)

I don't know if I've read that memoir. Is it good? Oh, it's good.

Nellie McKay (30:10)

Oh, it's so good. And I know there's a audio version, which is probably great because it's in her accent.

Craig Ferguson (30:15)

Yeah. No, it's funny. I know. I write. I'm a very friendly with Tom Straw, who was the showrunner of that sitcom. She was on. What was it called again? The Fire. Grace Under Fire. Yeah. And Tom Straw was. Who's a good friend of mine, he's been on this podcast. Tom was the. Was the showrunner, the kind of lead writer on that. And Tom, funnily enough, and she was having a very difficult time during this is when her behavior was very crazy. He will not hear a word against her. He's like, nope, she's super talented. He loves her. It's very interesting. You know, she was having a hard time then. I've never met the woman. I don't know. Do you know her?

Nellie McKay (30:58)

I met her once. She played underneath Madison Square Garden. I guess there's a comedy club there. And she was very sweet. She said, oh, I wish I was a little girl named Nelly.

Craig Ferguson (31:11)

Well, I've wished that in my life, too, but not for a while, I don't think. I think you do it so much better than I do, so I wouldn't want to get in the way of that. Do you ever. Do you ever perform over here in London? Do you work over here a lot?

Nellie McKay (31:30)

I hope so. I'd love to. Last time I was there, I got so sick. But it was Linda McCartney's vegan sausages, but it wasn't the fault of the sausages. I took them to the hotel microwave, and I think they put them on for too little time. So it wasn't her fault. But anyway, I was very sick the next day, and then I went to go see my friend Richard Kind doing Guys and Dolls. I know Richard Kind. Did you see that?

Craig Ferguson (31:55)

I saw Richard when he was doing the Producers. Richard Kind was doing the Producers, and I went to see him that night. He was on this podcast, like, a few weeks ago, and Richard. I went to see him that night. And then after. This is a long time ago, because after I went out and I met the woman that I'm now married to that night when I went to see Richard Kind. So I always think of Richard Kind in a very fond way. He's a lovely man.

Nellie McKay (32:27)

Richard, where did you go and meet your lady?

Craig Ferguson (32:32)

It was an event after the theater I had to go to. It was a party. I didn't want to go. It wasn't a party. Well, it was a party. It was New Yorkers for Children charity event. And I didn't want to go, but I said I was going to go. So I went to this New Yorkers for Children charity event. And I met this woman. And we've been married for years.

Nellie McKay (32:50)

Oh, my goodness. It's always the event you don't want to go to.

Craig Ferguson (32:54)

Isn't that funny? She says the same thing. I mean. Cause she didn't want to go to the thing either. She was like, oh, all right. And she went. And it's an interesting. And now we say that to our kids, which is always go to the party. Because you never know who you're gonna meet.

Nellie McKay (33:10)

That's a beautiful story.

Craig Ferguson (33:12)

It's kinda nice.

Nellie McKay (33:13)

It's all Richard Kind's fault.

Craig Ferguson (33:14)

It's all Richard Kind's fault.

Nellie McKay (33:15)

Oh, my God.

Craig Ferguson (33:16)

So anyway, I interrupted you. Cause you said you were seeing Richard Kind in Guys and Dolls in London.

Nellie McKay (33:23)

Oh, that. I mean, that's basically. Yeah. And then, yeah, I left him a little Bernie Sticker backstage. And I said, you know, if you want to hang out. And so he came to my gig and it was fun. He walked me back to the elevator. And elevators can be very dangerous situations. So I appreciate his protection.

Craig Ferguson (33:43)

Well, I don't know. I mean, given your mother's experience with the hitchhiker. I think an elevator is probably a lot safer than. Than you're used to in your family's history. Really. I mean, Richard Kind in an elevator is not a dangerous situation at all.

Nellie McKay (33:58)

But I don't know if you've ever read. It's a really. I haven't even gotten that far into it, but Susan Brownmiller recently died. And she wrote a book called Against Our Will. And whoa, once you read that, you're like, oh, holy crow. I mean, they say with prostitutes that the most dangerous place is more a hotel room than if you're on the street. So, you know, you just never know.

Craig Ferguson (34:24)

You never know.

Nellie McKay (34:25)

I'd be paranoid, you know, I think.

Craig Ferguson (34:27)

I do a pretty good job of being paranoid. I stay paranoid a lot of the time. Are you nervous about that? Do you get paranoid? Are you a nervous person?

Nellie McKay (34:38)

Do you think, well, you have to. Because if I got attacked, I would just be Woody Allen. I'd tear up my driver's license. I mean, I knew because I grew up in Harlem and we had.

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Nellie McKay (34:51)

Do you call it, a roommate who was a right wing folk singer from Minnesota. But he was a real white boy, you know, and he used to get so nervous, he would push a shopping cart and pee his pants and talk to himself so he wouldn't get mugged. So, you know, everybody, you know, I always feel like hurt, I'll hurt people's feelings, you know, if I, you know, it's like you suspect any guy that they could, but they are all bigger than you, you know. No, but of course it's not just Harlem. It's just that at that time it was, it was in New York in the 80s, you know, was, was, was pretty.

Craig Ferguson (35:33)

I remember it was rougher.

Nellie McKay (35:35)

But, but there was a beauty to it, Craig, because now, I mean it's, it's ruled by thieves, but they're, they'd steal a lot more, you know, it's, it's Dylan, it's steal a little. And I thought you're in jail. Steal a lot and they make you king.

Craig Ferguson (35:48)

Yeah. Well, that twas ever thus. It's interesting though that if I was a right wing folk singer, I don't think Harlem would be even today the place where I would choose to live. I feel like there are other domestic arrangements that may be more salubrious to your chosen profession, but I get it.

Nellie McKay (36:10)

And he was also an opera student, which maybe adds a layer, but also, Craig, I mean, it's just the facts of life. It's where can you afford to live? But go ahead.

Craig Ferguson (36:18)

I'm sorry. Yeah.

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Nellie McKay (37:24)

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Craig Ferguson (38:18)

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Today Show Host (38:22)

Good morning. Welcome to Today.

Today Show Promoter (38:24)

From back to school to tackling your to do list, the Today show is your best start to the day. It's a new season and and every morning we're here to help you take it all on as the forecast calls for football all across the country, blockbuster stars, live concerts, and so much more. Wake up to where it's all happening.

Today Show Host (38:43)

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Today Show Promoter (38:47)

Watch the Today show weekday mornings at 7am on NBC.

Craig Ferguson (38:55)

In the 1980s, I lived in the Lower east side and there was a lady, a woman that we all knew in the neighborhood and she was also an opera singer, but she wasn't very well known and she was young and she was starting a career. So she worked in a restaurant, she was a waitress in a restaurant. She worked at a table at a restaurant. And on the way home every night she used to sing these arias really loud. We used to hear her walking down the neighborhood because if ever the music stopped, if ever she stopped singing, people would look out on the fire escapes to see what was going on. So it was kind of a way of protecting herself as she was walking home that she would sing this beautiful music into the neighborhood and we would all hear her going home. And if she stopped singing, someone go, hey, what's going on down here? Get the music button. They would, you know, it would come back up again.

Nellie McKay (39:43)

No kidding. That was in New York?

Craig Ferguson (39:45)

Yeah, it was in on 11th street on First Avenue. Right down. Like, you know where Venera's Bakery is? Down there. Right there.

Nellie McKay (39:55)

Yeah, yeah, right there.

Craig Ferguson (39:57)

I used to live above that bakery technique. Yeah, I thought it was very clever. Yeah, Yeah. I still love that bakery. I still love it.

Nellie McKay (40:07)

Well, I'm glad you come back here. And are you still. Oh, no. You're on the Upper east side. But do they deliver?

Craig Ferguson (40:15)

I'm sure they would for a price. But I don't mind getting on the subway and going downtown, because first of all, you can get right past midtown by just staying on the train. So, you know, you get on at 86th street and then you miss it all out. And now you're in Union Square and everything's fine. And the other thing is, like, you talked about New York and like this, People complain about the subway in New York now. I'm like, you guys have no idea. This thing is palatial now. The subway used to be so awful, and now it's like, this is actually pretty nice. It's all right. It goes everywhere. Very. I don't see much trouble. It's kind of clean. Ish. It's not bad.

Nellie McKay (41:00)

That's funny. We used to live in Queens when I was growing up, before Harlem, and we were on the Vomit Comet, was what they called the L. Oh, like that. And that was where they had the first subway fires. Was our stop, the Halsey street station. But, you know, if you're near 86th. I saw Rita Moreno do a book talk there at the Barnes and Noble. I knew it afterwards. Yeah, boy. But I messed up with Rita, I said, because I'd met her, because I did another off Broadway show, and I said, oh, after all that, I said, you must be tired. I think she was in her 80s. She gave me such a look. Oh, you shouldn't say that. Don't mess with the Rita.

Craig Ferguson (41:39)

You know, it's funny when you meet especially, and this must have happened to you quite a lot, that when you start doing well and people start listening to your stuff, you start to meet people that you've idolized, and it can be kind of awkward. It's an odd dynamic to be put into. Do you remember the first. The first of your heroes that you ever actually met or that you worked with?

Nellie McKay (42:03)

Oh, gee, I don't know even the first, but. Well, Phil woods used to teach me. He's a wonderful saxophone player, legend. And he always said, you talk too much about music. But then I remember David Byrne. I think the last time I saw. One of the last times, I kind of locked him in the dressing room, because I didn't want to let him go. And I kept saying, mom, can I let David out? But, you know, people are just people. I think it's better if you don't know their work, you know? So I try. I try not to look at it, watch anything, or listen to anything, really.

Craig Ferguson (42:42)

You know, it's funny. I. I know exactly what you mean. I spend no time or very little time talking to comedians or, like, if I. If I'm. If I'm talking to a comedian or a writer, it is probably. I don't socialize with people that kind of do the same as me. Not very often anyway. Especially if I really like what they do. I'm like, I'll just make a fool of myself. I'll say something stupid. It's interesting you mentioned David Byrne, though, because there was this thing that I remember from when Talking Heads were doing, I guess, the album Fear of Music. I think it says an early album or fairly early album. I found out that David Byrne was from Scotland. Did you know that? We were all super excited when we found it out. Yeah. I was like, david Byrne is Scottish. Like, the coolest person on earth is Scotty. I mean, like, apart from Bowie, but, you know, Bowie's no longer with us, so it is, in fact, like David Burn now. And he's from Scotland. You can hardly believe it. But I've never met him. I've never. He was. He's a. He's another guy that I kind of thought, like, especially when I was doing Late Night, I'd be like, no, I don't want to invite people on that. I really, like. I idolize too often. I mean, it did happen. There were, you know, people on that I did analyze, but Boy was one and David Byrne was another. I was like, don't ask them, just in case they say, yeah.

Nellie McKay (44:15)

No. Really? You didn't go for it?

Craig Ferguson (44:18)

No.

Nellie McKay (44:19)

Go for it now, Craig.

Craig Ferguson (44:20)

Yeah, maybe. Maybe now it'd be okay. Maybe now it'd be a little different. Because I notice when you get older, it kind of. It doesn't stop you enjoying people's work or really appreciating it. But the idea of being intimidated by people like that, it doesn't do the same to me. Does it still have that effect on you if you meet a giant in your field?

Nellie McKay (44:43)

Well, you just want to have something to say. What do you say that hasn't been said before?

Craig Ferguson (44:46)

You know, I know.

Nellie McKay (44:48)

You know, that's it. You want to work with them, and I'm sure you have so many ideas I didn't have, but I'll put it up. But my mug that says, tomorrow's just a future yesterday, which always wigs me great. You can't be saying that to stoners, man. But it's right there in my cabinet every morning. You know, like the monks say they wake up in the morning. Buddhist monks. And the first thing you're supposed to think about is death. Because that's supposed to kind of orient your priorities for the day. I don't know. I'm not. But now you should. You should. Why not write songs for David? Or you guys could do just one song together. And, you know, I mean, he has a huge library in his studio and he climbs a staircase to get to it. And he brought me down a lot of music. It was very sweet of him, which I've never returned because how cool. Could you. It has his initials in it. I don't want to give that back.

Craig Ferguson (45:50)

Written music, like manuscript.

Nellie McKay (45:52)

No, it's more like obscure Argentinian orchestras, But it has D.B. you know, I mean, look at how he dresses. He seems quite meticulous, you know?

Craig Ferguson (46:03)

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Nellie McKay (46:04)

He's a Taurus. You're both Tauruses.

Craig Ferguson (46:07)

I should. That's what I should say if I ever run into David Byrne. I'll say, look, this may sound a little creepy, David, but I know you're from Scotland and we're both tourists, so why not? We'll do a song together and we'll see what he says. I don't know. I think it might work out.

Nellie McKay (46:22)

Couldn't you start a feud?

Craig Ferguson (46:25)

No, I don't want to have a feud with someone I admire. That's a terrible idea. Wait, have you got any. Do you have a celebrity feud going on that I don't know about?

Nellie McKay (46:39)

I suggested it to Ethan. Cause Neil Pepe, our director, he was, like, looking for ways to promote. I said, why don't we have a Twitter feud? And Ethan said, oh, I don't do anything like that. No fun. But he's a Virgo. But another Earth sign. I mean, I do think if the end of the world came, the last to go should be the Earth signs, because you're very grounded. But Scott against Scott. I mean, that's great. You should look up your respective clans. Maybe there's a whole history.

Craig Ferguson (47:07)

I don't think we have to. I think they're Byrne and Ferguson. I think that's it. I feel like the. Look, Nelly, I don't want to get in the way of your master plan, but this is A terrible idea. I really like David Byrne. I don't want to be in a celebrity feud with David Byrne. Plus a lot of people would be saying, who is this person that David Byrne is in a feud with? We don't even know who this guy is. And David Byrne would be like getting very angry and wearing his big suit. Nah, I don't want to do that. There's a great, you know the British radio show Desert Island Discs? Have you ever heard it?

Nellie McKay (47:41)

No.

Craig Ferguson (47:42)

Oh, it's a great show. Nelly. It's a radio show. And what they do is they have. It's been going on for like 60 or 70 or maybe even more years. And what it is is a guest comes on every week. They can be from any part of the world and they choose six songs. They call it Desert Island Disc. Like you're on a desert island. You only have six songs that you can listen to for the rest of your life on a gramophone. That's how long it's been going on. So you get to pick six discs and you also get to take. You get given the full work of Shakespeare and the Bible, but you also get to take one luxury item and a book, something like that. And they talked and David Byrne was on it. I heard David Byrne on it and he was hilarious. Hilarious. It's not what I expected at all.

Nellie McKay (48:34)

That's what his former bandmates say. They say now he's Mr. Rogers. What the.

Craig Ferguson (48:38)

Yeah, he was. He's so. He's a very singular, a true musician. I think like you someone who, whose mind thinks in music. I mean not someone who really even learns music as much as just that's how they're brain works. And I think you're very similar. I think you process the human experience through music. I think he does the same thing. Everything is there, don't you think?

Nellie McKay (49:09)

I wish I was like that. I mean before to prep for you I was listening to Noam Chomsky on consumerism.

Craig Ferguson (49:18)

Which is a perfect choice.

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Today Show Promoter (50:25)

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Craig Ferguson (51:18)

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Today Show Host (51:25)

Good morning. Welcome to today.

Today Show Promoter (51:27)

From back to school to tackling your to do list, the Today show is your best start to the day. It's a new season and every morning we're here to help you take it all on as the forecast calls for football all across the country, blockbuster stars, live concerts and so much more. Wake up to where it's all happening.

Today Show Host (51:45)

We're getting back to all of it and the best way to start is together.

Today Show Promoter (51:49)

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Craig Ferguson (51:58)

You know you said earlier on the Buddhist monks say that when you wake up, the first thing you should do is think about death. Death, right as you wake up in the morning. I have noticed that the older I get, the more I do that I wake up in the morning and go, still here, eh? Okay, what are we gonna do now?

Nellie McKay (52:16)

It's not bad, but do you have a positive opinion of death? When do you think? When do you plan to live to?

Craig Ferguson (52:24)

I was hoping 93. I'm 63 right now. That'd be 30 more years. But it depends on how the health goes, you know. I don't know. I don't know. I mean, if it's going to be very bad for a long time then. But I don't know. I think I have a reasonably positive idea of it. What do you think happens after it's all over? Do you have any inclination, do you think about it?

Nellie McKay (52:52)

Well, I think we're naturally. And of course this shuts out pretty much everything in our culture, but we're naturally supposed to live to six times the age of maturation, which should be 120 because we're basically not fully formed until we're about 20. But of course there's so many ways that is forced upon us that goof that up. But I've lost so many people and good people. The boomers, for God's sake. You know, it used to be when I was playing nursing homes, Craig, everybody wanted Tommy Dorsey. Now everybody wants Mick Jagger. They say, who's Tommy Dorsey? Soon it's gonna be. Everybody wants David Byrne. This is not okay. I don't accept this, you know, and then it's gonna be the Thong Song, you know. But then what do I hope happens? I do think there's something beyond. I think all these serendipities are more than just coincidences. There are too many things that pop up. And it's not just that the devices are listening to us all the time. So whatever we're talking about now, I will then receive an ad for afterwards. It's not just that there are genuine signs, it seems. And when you listen to people who have had near death experiences, you get the sense of such peace and they never want to come back. And then whatever is happening on the operating table works and they come back and they're back to pain. But they've had this near death experience and it's beautiful. And that's what I hope. I just hope we're reunited and there's no more misunderstandings or pain. Because who needs that? I don't know how it is in your relationship, but this whole thing of like, you know, relationships are hard. No, screw that. Work is hard, life is hard. You want to come home at the end of the day and just be, you know, have a cold one or not. If you want to live to 120 and be happy.

Craig Ferguson (54:45)

I think that. I think you're right. I think that there. It's such an odd thing. I. There was once. I'm going to tell you something now, something I did. The piece of writing that I am most proud of is a short story that I wrote for a collection of stories that my friend Larry Block, who's a very good writer, was putting together a collection of stories all based on the paintings of Edward Hopper. So a bunch of different people, some really clever people like Joyce Carol Oates, Stephen King, you know, Scott Truro, everybody wrote a short story. And I wrote a short story about a church, and I just invented a whole thing about a Hopper painting of a church in Massachusetts. And it's the best thing I've written because it was about death. It was about a man who dies in the space of the short story. And I mean, as he's dying, something really weird happens. And he says. He says to the person that turns out, basically, Elvis turns up as he's dying, and Elvis has been long dead. And Elvis, he says to Elvis, this is just the entertainment of a dying brain, isn't it? It's just the hallucination of a dying brain. And Elvis says, I think you can overthink these things. And I think that that is such a. I felt very comfortable with that. And so that's where I'm going to set. It's inevitable, so why overthink it? It'll happen.

Nellie McKay (56:28)

But do you feel comfortable that because you're Craig Ferguson and also you have a lovely lady, that your things will be taken care of and treasured?

Craig Ferguson (56:38)

I think that. I think I own nothing. I own nothing. Not even your body. You don't even own that. You can't even control that. So I think everything is. Everything is gone. And so whatever the lovely paintings or automobiles or anything that I own, when I go, they're no longer mine. What does it matter?

Nellie McKay (57:02)

I know, but I just. I hate whis. But it's just interesting because we were talking about David Byrne, you know, his song Heaven? Do you agree with that?

Craig Ferguson (57:09)

Oh, yeah. Is a place everybody's trying to get to the bar. I used to listen to it. And it's funny. I think that life is very. Is very perspective driven through the chronology of it. So if, for example, I listened to that song a lot when I was a young man. He wrote the song when he was a young man. And I thought it was funny and irreverent and kind of almost defiant in its stance. It was. It was a satire almost. And now I look at it from the perspective I'm much further along the beach, so the island I'm looking at looks like a different shape now. And I think that's actually Quite a relaxing and cool idea. Nothing ever happens. I think that it's in Jewish tradition, the idea of Sheol, which is a place that. A world where. Where everybody goes to after death. And, you know, it's just kind of not very interesting. That's all they really say about it. I don't know enough. I don't know enough about it. It's not like. But it's not legs of fire and people prodding you with sticks around like that. It's just like, ah, it's just a little boring. All right. It's lovely catching up with you. I do want to come and see what's the name of the play again? Love. Love. It's all love, baby. What's it called again? Let's Love, Let's Love. Yes, Which I suspect there may be irony in that title.

Nellie McKay (58:48)

Oh boy, it's very smutty. You should know, Craig, I hope you're comfortable with that.

Craig Ferguson (58:52)

Yeah, actually remarkably so. That's great. I'm very pleased about that. Are you doing all the music for it as well?

Nellie McKay (59:01)

Well, yes, but some of it I think will be standards. We're still figuring it out now. Okay, but you know, have you, have you done Broadway or theater shows?

Craig Ferguson (59:10)

I've done a lot of theater. I haven't done Broadway, but I did the West End in London and I've done different theater shows around the world. But not Broadway. I imagine it's much the same.

Nellie McKay (59:22)

Isn't it fun to just be just part of the machine and not have to do the whole motor yourself?

Craig Ferguson (59:29)

Yes, it is. It is that. It's one of the things I miss about it is that somebody will come over and say, no, what you have to do is stand over there, say that, that, sing that, do that, and run out there as fast as you can. Don't mess around, just do that. And that's your job for the night. Okay. And then the best advice I got, which is an old time performer, when I was a young performer, he said when you. He said when you get on stage, lift your head up. Lift your head up and look up. Because the people at the back have paid as well. Eyes and teeth all the way to the back of the room.

Nellie McKay (60:01)

I love that.

Craig Ferguson (60:02)

Isn't that sweet?

Nellie McKay (60:04)

Wonderful. Eyes and teeth as well.

Craig Ferguson (60:06)

Eyes and teeth.

Nellie McKay (60:07)

But do you know Jim Dale?

Craig Ferguson (60:09)

I know who he is. I mean, I don't know him, but yes, I'm very aware of his amazing career.

Nellie McKay (60:15)

Yeah, it was fun doing him. He could still do high kicks in his 70s when we did thrombo opera together. Did you know Alan Rickman?

Craig Ferguson (60:24)

I did. I knew him a little bit. A little bit. Did you. Was, was he on trapne opera with you? Did he do it?

Nellie McKay (60:29)

No, but he went to school with my mother and he was always organizing things. Yeah, for the final test, he sang A thousand Clowns. Wait a minute. No, not what he. Send in the clowns.

Craig Ferguson (60:40)

Send in the clowns.

Nellie McKay (60:41)

And then they, they, they were in. They were extras on the film. Oh, lucky man. So you can see them at the end dancing.

Craig Ferguson (60:49)

Oh, my God. Well, Alan Rickman and your mom.

Nellie McKay (60:52)

Yes. Yes, he was. You know, then when I got a record contract, I think it kind of messed him up. We started calling him Uncle Al and he would say, my name is Alan. And my name is Alan, your uncle Potter.

Craig Ferguson (61:08)

All right, we gotta go. Good luck with let's love and I will come and see it, particularly if it's smutty and it's downtown. That's. These are two things that I'm actually okay with. So take care of yourself. No hitchhiking around New York, please.

Nellie McKay (61:30)

Aye, captain.

Craig Ferguson (61:31)

All right, good. I'll talk to you soon. Bye. Bye, Nelly.

Nellie McKay (61:34)

Bye, Craig.

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Craig Ferguson (63:16)

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Craig Ferguson (63:27)

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Craig Ferguson (63:31)

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Craig Ferguson (63:36)

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Nellie McKay (64:19)

This is an I heart podcast.