Joy, a Podcast with Craig Ferguson

Episode: Salman Rushdie
Date: November 4, 2025

Overview

In this compelling episode, host Craig Ferguson sits down with celebrated novelist Salman Rushdie to explore the intersection of joy, literature, mortality, and the ongoing search for meaning in an often chaotic world. The episode focuses heavily on Rushdie’s new book, The 11th Hour, delving into its themes, his writing process, experiences of aging, the nature of fiction, and the enduring importance of humor and beauty both in life and literature. The tone throughout is intimate, witty, and thoughtful, with both men blending profound insights and playful banter.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Introducing The 11th Hour and Its Accessibility

• Craig opens by effusively praising Rushdie's new collection, noting its accessible and “affable” nature, and wonders if Rushdie is “kinder” or if he himself is “getting smarter.”

  “I feel, is the most accessible thing. Either I'm getting smarter or you're kinder. It feels like a very affable book to me…” – Craig (01:32)

• Rushdie reflects that the book was enjoyable to both write and read, which “isn’t always the same thing.”

  “You know, it was very enjoyable to write. It's very enjoyable to read, which isn't always necessarily the same thing.” – Rushdie (01:56)

2. Blurring Fact and Fiction; Writing from Life

• The conversation explores the meta elements of Rushdie’s stories, especially characters inspired by people he’s known.
• Rushdie admits that while writers do draw from life, his characters—like the one in "Oklahoma"—are often less like him than readers might suspect:

  “Actually the character in ‘Oklahoma’ is…he's not as nice as me…he's a bit of a fraud.” – Rushdie (03:13)

3. Themes of Aging, Mortality, and Revenge

• Craig and Rushdie discuss the recurring motif of aging, attributed to their similar life stages.

  “There's a lot of aging in the book. I mean, I'm guessing that's because, like us all, you're not getting young.” – Craig (04:10)

• They notice an unexpected recurrence of revenge themes in the book’s novellas, with Rushdie stating these themes arose organically rather than by design:

  “I wasn't planning to write, you know, let's sit down and write some revenge stories. But that's just the way the stories went.” – Rushdie (05:10)

• Rushdie favors a discovery-driven writing approach, revealing that his process has shifted from meticulous outlining to embracing surprise.

4. Music, Magic, and East/West Contrasts

• The power and symbolism of music in the stories—specifically the magical influence of the sitar versus the piano—leads to a playful exchange about East vs. West and personal musical preferences.

  “I just thought the sitar is superior.” – Rushdie (06:29)

• Rushdie shares a family connection to piano playing, untangling any literal autobiographical echoes.

5. Belief, Atheism, and Softening (or Hardening) With Age

• Ferguson probes Rushdie’s beliefs, pressing if age has softened his atheism—Rushdie doubles down:

  “No, I'm hardening.” – Rushdie (07:14)

• They recall a famous quip:

  “‘This is no time to be making enemies.’” – Rushdie (07:20), referencing a witty deathbed retort about renouncing the devil.

6. Humor in Literature

• Both agree Rushdie is underappreciated as a comic writer, comparing him to the likes of Evelyn Waugh and lamenting comedy’s lack of critical recognition.

  “I think it's because you're clever and people want to feel clever and they don't feel clever when they're laughing.” – Craig (08:17)

• Rushdie reminisces about early reviews of Midnight's Children that highlighted its humor.

7. Story Structure, Concept Albums, and Narrative Cohesion

• Rushdie reveals that, though the collection comprises five distinct stories, he aimed for an integrated, concept album-like experience:

  “I think it's a concept album.” – Rushdie (18:52)

• The stories’ order was deliberate and not chronological in terms of when they were written; the sequence imparts additional meaning to the final story.

8. Historical Wrongs, Identity, and the Past

• The story “Late” is discussed as an act of redressing historical injustice—Rushdie weaves together influences from Forster, Turing, and his own experiences against the backdrop of institutional homophobia.

  “…here are two of the greatest figures who ever went to the college, and they were both treated in the same way, and it crippled them both. So I thought, I'm going to make a character that's kind of both of them and a bit of myself as well…” – Rushdie (15:29)

9. Madness, Trauma, and Creative Distance

• Rushdie talks about the Stone of Madness, inspired by a Bosch painting, and reflects on personal proximity to mental illness:

  “I get very worked up by writing. But the thing that I can do…is I can leave it behind…when I finish a day's work…and I leave the room, it stays behind.” – Rushdie (23:00)

• He credits this “compartmentalizing” ability as vital for his health and creativity.

10. The Influence of Other Art and Artists

• The enduring inspiration drawn from Goya, Bosch, Velázquez, and Kafka is a recurring motif. Rushdie describes the effect of classic artworks—especially in Madrid’s Prado Museum.

  “There are works of art would just stick in your head forever, right. And that's one of them.” – Rushdie on Las Meninas (30:02)

11. Spirituality, Mortality, and the Mortal Soul

• Craig is struck by Rushdie’s concept of a “mortal soul”—Rushdie credits Aristotle and clarifies his atheism arises not from disdain for mystery, but simply not needing it:

  “I love Aristotle. He had this idea…there could be such a thing as a spirit…but that it doesn't outlive the body.” – Rushdie (31:40)

• Rushdie candidly recounts his own near-death experience, reporting the absence of any spiritual or supernatural perception at the threshold:

  “There was no tunnel of light…No lights, no sense of going somewhere.” – Rushdie (32:44)

12. Technology, Reading Habits, and Audiobooks

• Both discuss digital reading and audiobooks, with Rushdie now embracing e-readers for their accessibility features and revealing an audiobook version of The 11th Hour with different narrators for each story.

13. Writing Community, Friendship, and Legacy

• Rushdie reflects on friendships within literary circles past and present, from his “posh crew” of British writers to current connections like Zadie Smith and Don DeLillo.

  “I think there's room for everybody…you walk into a bookstore, there's all those books…and there's room for all of them.” – Rushdie (39:32)

14. Younger Writers, Staying Current, and Being “Out of the Loop”

• Rushdie praises contemporary novelists like Jesmyn Ward and James McBride, but admits he reads less contemporary fiction while he is writing, to “avoid being infected” by another voice.
• Both men admit to feeling “out of the loop” regarding online spaces and literary discourse.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Artistic Discovery:

  “I like the process to be discovery—that you find out what you're writing by writing it.”
  – Rushdie (05:19)

• On Approaching Aging:

  “You can be serene on Tuesday and angry on Wednesday.”
  – Rushdie (14:05)

• On Humor’s Underrated Value:

  “Comedy's never win Oscars…It’s because you can say about comedy, ‘I don't get it,’ and the person who doesn't get it has the upper hand.”
  – Craig (08:26)

• On Death and the Afterlife:

  “One of the things that there wasn’t was anything like a spirit leaving the body… There was no tunnel of light.”
  – Rushdie (32:38)

• On Joy and Beauty:

  “I think beauty is the job, you know. Why do we read books? We read books for beauty.”
  – Rushdie (18:16)

• On Literary Belonging:

  “Once it's finished, I'm really done with it. With anything I write. Once it's finished, it's finished. I don't have to hang on to it, let it go.”
  – Rushdie (35:22)

Important Timestamps

| Time | Segment / Topic | |--------|-----------------------------------------------------------| | 01:32 | On The 11th Hour’s accessibility and Rushdie’s process | | 04:56 | On stories as novellas and revenge as a recurring theme | | 07:14 | Rushdie’s stance on atheism, Hitchens anecdote | | 08:17 | Discussion of humor and cleverness in literature | | 13:04 | How the book grapples with aging & approaching mortality | | 15:29 | “Late”, Forster & Turing, historic injustice | | 18:52 | Story order as a "concept album" | | 23:00 | On handling difficult topics, emotional distance | | 30:02 | The lasting power of “Las Meninas” and Prado art | | 31:40 | The “mortal soul” and Aristotle | | 32:44 | Rushdie’s near-death experience; absence of afterlife | | 39:32 | On literary friendships and community | | 47:48 | Creating believable magical worlds | | 51:13 | On contemporary writers (Jesmyn Ward, James McBride) | | 54:02 | On literary correspondence and the lost art of letters |

Tone and Language

Throughout, the dialogue is intelligent and humorous, with Ferguson’s characteristic dry wit and Rushdie’s erudition and warmth. Their repartee strikes a balance between literary seriousness and self-aware playfulness, making profound subjects approachable without losing their depth.

Conclusion

This rich and lively conversation offers listeners a window into Rushdie’s mind and creative practice, but also delves deeply into topics of aging, mortality, beauty, humor, faith, friendship, and the ever-shifting search for joy. For both long-time Rushdie fans and newcomers, the episode distills the enduring value of stories and the necessity of joy—in literature, and in life.