Avoid Conflict But Don't Be a Coward | Having Hard Conversations | JP Dinnell Podcast 113

Summary

Episode Overview

Title: Avoid Conflict But Don't Be a Coward | Having Hard Conversations
Podcast: JP Dinnell Podcast #113
Date: November 21, 2025
Hosts: JP Dinnell & Lucas Pinckard

This episode explores the fine balance between avoiding unnecessary conflict and the courage required to have tough, meaningful conversations—especially in leadership and personal growth contexts. Drawing from JP's experiences as a Navy SEAL and leadership instructor, as well as candid stories from both hosts' lives, the conversation focuses on directness, accountability, and practical approaches to giving and receiving feedback without damaging relationships or falling into cowardice.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Power of Honest Feedback Among Friends

• [00:00-07:20]
  • JP opens by reading a heartfelt text from his friend and mentor, Trey Warren, who challenged JP to reduce his use of foul language, emphasizing the impact of JP's words as a gift "from God."
  • Trey’s text was a model of both encouragement and challenge—he praised JP’s influence but suggested he could achieve greater impact by controlling his language.
  • JP discussed his upbringing, military background, and struggles with language. He acknowledged that cursing had become a habit in the SEAL teams’ environment but recognized the importance of change.

“You have a light in you, JP, that demands attention. That right there is a gift from God. When you speak, people dial in and listen to every word you say. That is a gift from God... I do think you could have a greater impact to strangers and your friends, if you can control your foul language.” — Trey Warren (read aloud by JP, [02:00])

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2. Language, Authenticity, and Professionalism

• [07:20-15:33]
  • Lucas and JP discuss public figures like Andy Frisella and Gary Vee, whose language limits their audience reach. Both hosts note the impact of language on professional environments and personal branding.
  • JP reflects on his willingness to adapt language based on context, highlighting intentionality and discipline over “authenticity” as an excuse for unfiltered language.
  • There's a recurring theme that being disciplined with words makes content more accessible and professional.

“In the majority of professional environments, you don't do it... it’s not a matter of authenticity. It’s just a matter of discipline.” — Lucas [15:16]

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3. Framework for Difficult Conversations in Leadership

• [15:40-23:09]
  • JP shares a workshop example where he coached executives on acknowledging imbalances, taking ownership, and having hard conversations with their teams.
  • The Echelon Front model includes: identify the problem, take ownership, explain impact, provide solutions, and follow up with action.
  • He connects this model to Trey’s text, appreciating its thoughtfulness and non-attacking tone.

“Go have the hard conversation with your team and identify the problem that you’ve created, the impact. Take ownership, provide a solution, and then you have to go take action with that.” — JP [18:17]

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4. The Challenge of Initiating Tough Conversations

• [23:09-29:57]
  • Both hosts admit to their struggles with avoiding conflict, reflecting on personal insecurities and the desire not to create discomfort or additional conflict.
  • They emphasize practicing and roleplaying tough conversations beforehand, ensuring emotional detachment and intentionality.
  • They draw a distinction between direct confrontation and a carefully framed, caring approach.

“If we frame it the right way, if we can do what Trey did with me in this text message and make it very clear that, hey, this is from a position of love... it should be received the right way.” — JP [28:40]

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5. Why People Avoid Conflict & the Role of Preemptive Communication

• [30:18-36:00]
  • Lucas shares personal stories of how it’s easy as a leader to coach others through conflict but difficult to act on his own advice, often convincing himself something isn't a big deal to avoid confrontation.
  • They relate to a story from Jocko Willink: instead of waiting for “hard conversations,” he avoids them by having direct, regular, honest communication as issues arise, so problems don’t accumulate.

“I avoid hard conversations... I’m having all the needed conversations along the way so that they don't get to the point where it is a hard conversation.” — Jocko Willink (paraphrased by JP [34:36])

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6. The Difference Between Physical and Relational Conflict

• [45:06-54:16]
  • JP recounts a story of stepping in to de-escalate a physical altercation at a comedy show—demonstrating that stepping up to direct conflict can be easier for some than having relational, interpersonal confrontations.
  • They contrast “heroic” moments that are ego-affirming versus the quieter courage needed for honest conversations.
  • JP laments a cultural tendency to film rather than act and links this to how many avoid hard conversations in daily life.

“Having that hard conversation is also doing the right thing 100%. It’s just different, because it’s not as rewarding to our ego.” — JP [53:21]

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7. Final Lessons: Avoiding Conflict vs. Cowardice

• [58:21-End]
  • JP closes with practical and philosophical encouragement: avoid unnecessary (especially physical) conflict, but don’t use “avoiding conflict” as a cover for avoiding necessary, hard conversations.
  • He highlights the necessity of preparation, professionalism, and an intent to achieve alignment—not just “winning” in conflict.

“Avoiding conflict is good. You should avoid conflict. However, comma, that doesn’t mean avoid having the hard conversations... We should also avoid conflict at all cost. But if you have conflict in your life when it comes to relationships, go address it. Be default aggressive to have the hard conversations.” — JP [58:27]

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the Impact of Honest Feedback

  • “I wonder how many times I have not done what [Trey] did with me with other people in my life.” — JP [15:41]

• On the Value of Preparation

  • “If you don’t role-play a conversation... you could lose control of that conversation. And that’s the worst thing.” — JP [22:37]

• On Jocko’s Approach

  • “He is having all the needed conversations along the way so that they don't get to the point where it is a hard conversation.” — JP [34:36]

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Conclusion

Timestamps for Key Segments:

• 00:00 – JP reads Trey’s impactful text and reflects
• 07:20 – Hosts discuss language and leadership brand
• 15:40 – Framework for hard conversations
• 23:09 – Admitting difficulty with conflict avoidance
• 30:18 – Jocko Willink’s philosophy on hard conversations
• 45:06 – Story of real-world conflict intervention
• 58:21 – Final thoughts: the true purpose of avoiding vs. confronting conflict

Tone:
Candid, practical, and reflective—balancing veteran intensity with humility, humor, and real-world wisdom.

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Takeaways for Listeners

• Avoiding physical or ego-driven conflict is wise, but don’t conflate this with avoiding the difficult, honest conversations that strengthen relationships and organizations.
• Have a framework for tough talks: prepare, be genuine, own the problem, explain the impact, offer solutions, and seek genuine alignment.
• Seek accountability from friends, model direct but caring feedback, and practice discipline in your words and actions.
• Lastly, true leadership isn’t about bravado or confrontation—it’s about communication, humility, and relentless pursuit of improvement (for yourself and those you lead).

Transcript

[JP Donnell]

Good morning. This is the JP Donnell podcast, episode 113. I am JP Donnell, and as always, I have Lucas with me. So I am about to read a text message that I received from a very good friend the other day. One of my black belts at Double five. Not an official coach at Double five, but someone I look to as a coach, someone I look up to in jiu jitsu. And I'm just very thankful that I received this text message. It was a text that I appreciate and. But I'm also going to be honest that when I read this whole text message out loud, I want to be clear that some of the nice things that he said to me in this message makes me uncomfortable to read out loud, but it's also part of the text and I believe it brings the whole message together. And as you, Lucas, know and a lot of my friends that are listening, I'm not a fan of phrasing things. I like to try to pull up actual text, read the whole text. I. I know I've done that with you hundreds of times, which probably irritates you and a lot of other people, but I just don't like things that.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Get never done anything that's irritated me ever.

[JP Donnell]

You want to go back five minutes before we hit record? But I'm not a fan of phrasing things. And the intent behind his message was awesome. And again, it was what I needed to hear. I feel we have a friendship that I don't think my words could easily offend you and the same the other way around. We're both rather blunt at times with each other, and I personally feel that that is healthy communication. If something is said with the desire to help the other in any aspect, then I don't think either one of us would be offended or hold a grudge. With that said, I'd like to challenge you. You have a light in you, jp, that demands attention. That right and that right there is a gift from God. When you speak, people dial in and listen to every word you say. That is a gift from God. I personally believe that your impact on everyone you meet could be so much bigger than you ever could imagine. If you align your life to mirror Jesus Christ as close as humanly as possible. I am trying every day to do the same. And yes, it is difficult, but I know it's what I was made to do. The tongue has the power of life and death. Jesus defeated everything demonic with simply quoting scripture. God created everything we see and touch with simple words. I do think you could have a greater impact to strangers and your friends, if you can control through foul language. Again, I hope I don't offend you or give you a feeling that I'm telling you what to do, etc. This is from a place of love. So, again, I am very thankful for that text and the boldness that my friend Trey Warren had with me. And I'm thankful for good friendships that I have in my life. And when I read that text message, I smiled because he was right. That is something that I actively have been working on, is not cursing as much. You know, being in the military and the SEAL teams for so long, unfortunately, that was just an environment where it's just kind of what was normal. It doesn't make it right, not justifying it. But that's over a decade of living in that world, and you just get complacent to that. And, you know, I wasn't raised with hearing a lot of that. Now, my grandfather would. Would cuss all the time. He was an old sailor, an old farmer from Nebraska, did construction his whole life, and he had a foul mouth. And it really bothered my grandmother, who is a godly woman, and it bothered my parents. And there'd be times that they would say something to my grandfather and he would stop and he would correct it. Now, if he had a few beers in him, it wasn't going to be stopped or corrected. And I'm not dishonoring my grandfather, but that's just. That's what it was. And this is actually a statement of honor to my parents, because if that was a situation, they would just remove the kids. Like, we just wouldn't be in the room or we wouldn't be down in the barn. It's like, hey, if. If Grandpa Tommy is having some beers with his buddies and they're talking about things, and, you know, it wasn't like, crazy, excessive, like. Like really crude things. It wasn't anything ever inappropriate. It was, you know, cursing.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah.

[JP Donnell]

Which, okay, we shouldn't hear, but it wasn't like anything like. Like really foul or crude.

[Lucas Pinkert]

It was, like, vile.

[JP Donnell]

No, never. Like, literally never. My grandfather, to my recollection and knowledge, never. And, you know, if he was, you know, cursing a lot and his friends were. My parents would just be like, hey, kids, like, get out of the bar and go play. Go do something else.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah.

[JP Donnell]

And it was no.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Go kick rocks.

[JP Donnell]

Yeah, exactly. Go to the pond. Catch them, you know, tadpoles, you know, whatever. And so I was, you know, raised with my parents. You know, I didn't hear them cuss a lot. I mean, they would slip up, but it wasn't, like, a common thing. And. But unfortunately, I got complacent, and, you know, I just became a part of my language when I was in the military. And. But I've always known that it was wrong and I shouldn't do it. And it's something I need to control, and it's also unprofessional. And, you know, I can definitely turn it off. Like, when I'm speaking, like, I'm not cussing when I'm sharing stories from combat and SEAL teams. I'm not dropping F bombs and saying a bunch of stuff. Like, I think the worst swear word I've ever used was when I was quoting somebody that said, hey, when are you going to get your stuff together?

[Lucas Pinkert]

Your poops.

[JP Donnell]

Yeah. And start taking responsibility for your life? Yeah. And that was exactly what I need to hear. And I will share that story. And I quote it, and I even say, hey, I apologize if that language is offensive, but I'm quoting what was said to me because it was what I needed to hear. And I say, hey, maybe some of you guys also need to hear that. When are you going to get yourself together and start taking responsibility for your life? And this was like, that same version. Trey was saying, hey, man, stop. Yeah, you are actually taken away from what you can be saying and talking about. And he was my buddy that I told you about that. I have been actively trying not to swear as much, and when I do, I'm like, all right, cool. You know, ask for forgiveness. And he brought it up to me about, you know, when Peter denied Jesus the third time, he actually cursed to show separation from God. And when he shared that with me, I was like, oh, man, that. That for me, I was like, oh, that's, man, that's something I don't need to be doing. And again, guess what? It's Trey coming back into my life and just be like, hey, bud, you don't need to be doing that. And so I'm very thankful for his boldness, thankful to have good friends like that. And, you know, Lucas, you're one of those friends to me that, you know, help me stay on the path. You hold me accountable. You know, we. We get to do something really cool. This podcast, I'm very thankful for. So I'm very thankful for your friendship and what we're doing here. So with that. How are you doing, buddy?

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah, dude, I'm. I'm good. You know, this. This conversation makes me think of a couple of guys who I like hesitate to recommend to people because of that. And. And one is. Is Andy Frisella. Andy's got so much wisdom.

[JP Donnell]

Unreal. Yeah. Like, almost kind of actually, like, there's not a lot of people I know, a few like Pete Roberts, matched in business knowledge and wisdom.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah. And just savvy and, like, experience of, like, I don't know, just making it happen.

[JP Donnell]

I can't really name of anybody. Name anybody else that I know is at the level of what Solid and Andy have done, other than Pete Roberts.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah. Yeah. And it's. It's insane. But it's also one of those that, like, as soon as somebody's like, you know, if I'm going to listen to a business podcast, who should I listen to? Him? Like, all right, man, let me give you a preface. Like, you're going to have, like, if you. If you can't listen to it around your kids. You know, there's. But that. He's. He's one of those guys.

[JP Donnell]

Yeah.

[Lucas Pinkert]

You know, the number one piece of feedback that Gary Vee gets is language.

[JP Donnell]

I'm not a fan of him.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah. I mean, there's.

[JP Donnell]

Maybe it's because of the language.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah. It could be. Right.

[JP Donnell]

And I have a relationship with Andy, but I've always connected with Andy. Stuff, even, you know, I mean, it's called the. The MF CEO project. Right. You can figure out what MF stands for. CEO. Because he's done that and he's built that.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Multifaceted.

[JP Donnell]

Yes, Multifacete. Which is true. And if anybody's listening for the first time, I am friends with Andy Frisella.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah. You're mentioned in the book on mental toughness.

[JP Donnell]

Yep. And I've been on his podcast twice. I'm very close with Sal Frisello.

[Lucas Pinkert]

When's Andy coming on our podcast? For me to censor that.

[JP Donnell]

That would be awesome. I would love. Because he has the knowledge. But I will say Andy also has the ability to shut that off.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah.

[JP Donnell]

Because I've. I've heard him speak at events where exactly he shut it off, or if.

[Lucas Pinkert]

He goes on somebody else's podcast or using their platform and they are not as comfortable with it or they're trying to, like, we do, like, we watch our language to keep a rating because we want to make sure that our stuff is shareable for, you know, for parents, teachers, you know, business owners that they can say, hey, here, you know, listen to this. This is a good principle. And they don't have to preface with some of that stuff.

[JP Donnell]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think, like, I'd have to listen to it again. But, like, when I was on his podcast the very first time. So I was on the MSEO project. It was in November 2017, and then I believe it was January 2021. I was on the Real AF. Real Andy Frisella or real. Yeah, that's the intent.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Also faceted.

[JP Donnell]

Exactly. Both of those episodes were pretty clean from him because he knows, like, as a man of faith and I'm bold with my faith and the different things that I do. Like, he actually was, like, really clean compared to most episodes.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah.

[JP Donnell]

So it shows you, like, he knows to turn it off, and he can. And I want to be very clear. We're not, like, dogging on Andy for sale. He is my guy.

[Lucas Pinkert]

I love Andy 100%.

[JP Donnell]

I love his content. I'm the same way. And he knows that there are people that are hesitant to share some of his stuff because of that, but that's Andy, and that's the path he's taken. And. Yeah. Okay, cool. But I will say there has been a slight shift in him over the years where there's less and less of that. Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

[Lucas Pinkert]

As his. Not just, like, it hasn't been the shift to protect his brand because his brand is built off of him being.

[JP Donnell]

Just an incredible entrepreneur.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah. And an incredible entrepreneur. And also not being afraid to say whatever it is that. That he feels like he should say.

[JP Donnell]

Man, I'm not gonna lie. There are times I wish I had that freedom.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah.

[JP Donnell]

Not. Not. I'm not meaning from, like, the cursing standpoint. But he does not care. He will talk about anything, whatever.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Right.

[JP Donnell]

And from a professional standpoint, for you, as a pastor, you can't. Me for what I do at Echelon Front. I can't. And there's also wisdom to that. For the roles that we have in the lives that we live.

[Lucas Pinkert]

And just in general, like, having some discretion is not such a bad thing.

[JP Donnell]

Yeah. Unless you're like Andy, where you're in a position where you can, hey, let's talk about anything however we want. I do also wonder bring that awareness because he is reaching people at just an incredible, incredible level. That is unreal.

[Lucas Pinkert]

It's insane.

[JP Donnell]

He's so intelligent.

[Lucas Pinkert]

It's also one of those that, like, he does have a filter he chooses, but. But. Well. And that's the thing is, like, I know what things hit my filter and, like, where my threshold is. I just. I do want to sit down with Andy one day, like, no cameras, nothing. And be like, hey, tell me about some of the things that got filtered out. Some of the, Some of the thoughts.

[JP Donnell]

Oh, I want to. I. I wanted 100. I thought of that before.

[Lucas Pinkert]

The things that didn't make it. I didn't make the cut. Right.

[JP Donnell]

I know some. We've had some phone conversations about things where he called me up and, you know, we're talking. I'm like, oh, I'm getting the unfiltered.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah, 100%.

[JP Donnell]

And that's what's cool about having friendship with people that, you know. Yeah, like, you know, it's. It's that person that you can. Like, all right, if this is going on, we can talk about this. So we can.

[Lucas Pinkert]

We were having one of those conversations before we had record.

[JP Donnell]

And.

[Lucas Pinkert]

And that is one of those things. And so. And that's why this particular thing is. Is so important for us to talk about. Because there, I think with strong language or swear words or however you want to phrase it, that there's a certain amount of the population that feels like that is them being their authentic self and that they have to find. They, like, if I'm. If I don't get to use those words, then I'm not being my authentic self. And like, for. And the reason I brought up Gary V. Is because, like one, he does have a massive following, but he has talked at length about this in particular is because there's a lot of. Of moms and dads who are like, hey, I want to show my kids your stuff. You're talking a lot like, they want to be influencers. This is kind of your platform that you're. You're doing it. This is your whole thing. But I can't let him watch any of your videos because you, you just curse the whole time. Like, if, if you cleaned it up, it would be that. And, and what's interesting is over the last few years, he's been filtered out of the lot. A lot of the feeds of the people that like, that I knew. And I've known a couple of people who were like, on with him and that they've. They've done interviews with him and, and we've had the conversation. We're like, have you. Have you seen anything from Gary in a while? It's like, I don't know. And, and so we would go and look like he's still putting out content, but he's being filtered out of. Of those feeds. And the primary reason that they're finding out is. Is because of language, is when you start looking at. Because one of the. The life changes that have Happened for a lot of us is we become parents. And so the minute you start down a road where you're looking at a fun crafts to do with your kids, Right. Then there's an auto filter set up for a lot of those algorithms, you start dropping some of the things that have that explicit tag. And so as a lot of his audience in particular has matured like, and gone to the next phase in life that's dropped because of the language.

[JP Donnell]

Yeah.

[Lucas Pinkert]

So it's. Well, and on the one hand. Yeah. But on the other, it's one of those things that, like, in. In the majority of professional environments, you don't do it. And I had a buddy from Ireland that was talking to me. He's like, yeah, I just don't know how you turn it off. And I was like, you do the same thing. You do the exact same thing. You just don't notice when you do it because it's natural not to do it in certain environments. And it's not a matter of authenticity. It's just a matter of discipline.

[JP Donnell]

That's good. I mean, there's a lot of ways that we can go with this.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah.

[JP Donnell]

I just. I know this is gonna be a shorter episode. I just think about the boldness that Trey had to send me that text, and I wonder how many times I have not done what he did with me with other people in my life. You know, one of the things that we teach at Echelon Front is having hard conversations. And we teach the framework to having a hard conversation. And I was working with a client today here in the Fort Worth area. Very, very large company, does a lot of really cool stuff for our military. And it was really cool to be able to work with these executives. One of my buddies, Brian from Milestone, an incredible man of faith. I don't think I've ever heard Brian cuss. As I was thinking about that. And we've been at the house getting after it, working out, when we had groups of guys from the church over to work out. And there's been times we've gone on, you know, my wife and I went on a double date with him and his wife. And I don't think I heard it once come from him, like even, you know, and they picked a comedy show for us to go to because it was a clean comedy show.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Who did you see? Do you remember?

[JP Donnell]

Of course, a four day weekend.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Okay.

[JP Donnell]

Yeah. They don't cuss. They don't do any of that stuff. That was their thing is like, can we do comedy without it being crude? Yes, you can. And they're awesome.

[Lucas Pinkert]

I'm adjust. I'm about halfway through Big dumb eyes. Nate Bargaetes book.

[JP Donnell]

Okay, yeah, that.

[Lucas Pinkert]

It's super interesting because he talks about intentionally going clean because it forced him to think about the jokes in a different way.

[JP Donnell]

Oh, I like that. I like that being intentional with your communication is important, as we know. We talk about Echelon front as well. But anyway, so I was doing this workshop, and, you know, we were talking about hard conversations of when you do a balance assessment and you recognize, okay, hey, here's where out of balance. How's that inbound? How's that area of being out of balance cause problems? What problems has it caused, and what do you need to do to work on getting closer to balance? And how is that going to deliver impact and make changes to your team? And so we were talking through that, and so I let everybody do the balance assessment and fill out a little worksheet that we have attached to it. And then they got in their groups and they're doing their little fire team discussions. We call them fire team discussions at Echelon front. And so they're all talking. And then I said, all right, cool. So everyone was able to share their.

[Lucas Pinkert]

The.

[JP Donnell]

The area of imbalance and how it has a negative impact on the team. I said, if you're aware that you're out of balance, do you think maybe your team could be aware that you're out of balance? And everyone was like, yeah. I'm like, all right, cool. So what are some things that we need to do to correct it? And we got a lot of really good responses. And the thing I was looking for that I, you know, said to the group, and once I said this, it was so funny. Like, literally everybody, like, nod their head and they're like, oh, yeah. I said, go have the hard conversation with your team and identify the problem that you've created, the impact. Take ownership, provide a solution, and then you have to go take action with that, which means that you. You are now going to go have a conversation identifying a problem that you have created, the impact that it's created to them and the organization take ownership in this. So it doesn't seem like you're just, like, shrugging it off to be genuine with your ownership and then tell your team what you're going to do to fix it. And I was like, do you think if every one of you guys were to go do that, it would have a positive impact to your team? And every single person was like, absolutely. I'm like, cool, we're going to role play that conversation. I need a volunteer. And everyone's like. And I was like, all right, cool. So show hands. Who's out of balance? Who picked the one thing to work on was in cover move, simple, prioritize and execute. Decentralized camp. Well, command well. Most of the people raise their hand and prioritize and execute. I'm like, all right, cool. I need a volunteer. I was like, or we can do it military way, where I'm just going to voluntel somebody.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah.

[JP Donnell]

And so one of these leaders, awesome leader, former Marine. He's like, all right, I'll do it. You know, I'll get this done. I'll get this over with for the group comes up, we're role playing through it. And the first one was good, but it. There was definitely some feedback points of work and improvement, and he was very receptive to it. And, like, the group was giving him feedback. I gave feedback. And, you know, one of the things I was like, hey, did he take ownership? And everyone's like, he did. I'm like, really? When they're like, well, at this point, like, really? Was he clear on it? They're like, well, yeah. And I'm like, okay, cool. What exactly did he say? And he took ownership, but he immediately was like. And, you know, but then pushed it to me of like, hey, what suggestions do you have for me? Which his intent was trying to get me bought in on helping fix the problem. But the point I brought up, I was like, if you just like, hey, and this is my fault. Hey, what do you have for me? Could somebody not hear that you were taking ownership? Because now they're working through this problem and impact that they are aware of. And then all of a sudden, now you're like, hey, what do you think I should do?

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah.

[JP Donnell]

And the guy was like, yeah, I didn't think of it that way. And everybody else kind of had this like, aha moment. What was really cool is everybody in the room was like, super defensive for him, like, as if I was attacking him as we were breaking this down. And I said, hey, man. Their reaction tells me everything I need to know about you. You're a good human. You're a good leader. They care about you. Like, these people are, like, defending you. I said, but from my perspective of doing this, I've been in situations real time, where I'm sitting in as leaders having a hard conversation, and they took ownership and immediately transferred. I'm sorry, transitioned to the next talking point. And the people There did not hear and receive them taking ownership, and it did not have the impact. I was like, so when we're taking ownership, we have to be very clear with it. And so it was just a really cool opportunity. And the reason why I bring this up is I wonder how long Trey sat on this and what he thought about and how many times did he write the text message and delete something and change it up and everything? Because when you read that text message, it was very well put together and thought out.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah, it's very thoughtful. He tends to be that kind of person.

[JP Donnell]

Trey is extremely thoughtful, for sure. And his wife is as well. And his wife, Victoria, is our coach, and she's just an unreal human. Unbelievable Jiu jitsu, but also as a human, you know, so Trey is a very thoughtful, loving, caring person, for sure. I've gotten a lot of text messages from him. Hey, bubba. Just thinking about you. Let me know if there's anything I need to pray about or. Hey, bubba, I was praying for you this morning. God put this on my heart. Not. Not sure what it means. And I'm like, well, keep listening, because that was spot on. And so I bring this up because Trey thought about it, formulated the right way, and it delivered impact to me. And so that's why I also brought up the balance assessment we do and the role plays of having hard conversations. Because if we're not preparing ourselves as leaders to go have a hard conversation, we are setting ourselves up for failure.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah.

[JP Donnell]

Because if you don't role play a conversation, if you don't have a framework, if you don't have your talking points lined out and thought out and rehearsed, you could lose control of that conversation. And that's the worst thing that could happen. Because I want to have the. I'm having the conversation with somebody because I identified that there's a problem, whether it's with your performance or my performance, either of those are gonna be a hard conversation. And so for. What Trey was doing is he was identifying a problem that I had, and he explained the problem, the impact, and just.

[Lucas Pinkert]

And he thought. Started with the impact in a way, like, hey, I think you could have more of this if you. And. And that's. Now that I'm trying to say that there's some sort of intentional strategy there. But Trey's this awful guy. That is one of those things that it's knowing sincerely. Right. Because it's not flattery coming from.

[JP Donnell]

Yeah.

[Lucas Pinkert]

I mean, from Trey, like, knowing sincerely how he feels about what that impact.

[JP Donnell]

Yes.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Has the potential. So that's so good.

[JP Donnell]

And he started off that way. And when he did it, when I was reading it, it disarmed me. I didn't feel like I was being attacked.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah.

[JP Donnell]

And I don't. I don't think I would have read it as an attack, no matter what, because what he said is true. Because of our relationship. And so when we tell people to take ownership, the reason why is one. It's a fact. You need to take ownership over whatever's going on. But when I take ownership, it disarms people. They don't feel like they're being attacked. Now, Trey didn't take ownership in here. And if we were to dissect this and be like, well, you know, if we want to use a framework, the ownership could have been like, hey, I meant to talk to you about this sooner, and I didn't. I'm sorry. Sorry.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah.

[JP Donnell]

Doesn't need to. But what he did is I feel we have a friendship that I don't think my words could easily offend you. And the same the other way around. We're both rather blunt at times, and I personally feel that's healthy communication, meaning blunt with each other. Yeah. Not like being a holes to people, but blunt with each other, because that can be healthy if you have a strong relationship. If something is said with the desire to help. Keyword with the desire. So the desire to help the other in any aspect, then I don't think either one of us would be offended or hold a grudge. Yeah, man. Beautiful. Well written. Intentional. It was great. With that said, I'd like to challenge you because he cares about me.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah.

[JP Donnell]

And then.

[Lucas Pinkert]

But I also did like the. The word challenge. All of those things. It's not. With that said, I need to talk to you about something. With that said, there's been something, you know, whatever. It's the handy to challenge you, because the wording there, and this is something that I don't think I do enough of, is use language that will inspire people to rise to the occasion.

[JP Donnell]

I think you do. But your evaluation is your perspective, and so there's truth there. If you feel like you don't do it enough, then you don't. I know I don't. Because as I was sitting here reflecting, we're thinking, I was like. And there was a physical reaction from you when I said, I wonder how many times I should have done this. And I haven't. Yeah, that sucks. And so for me, that is the answer for myself of like, I don't do this enough. And I haven't done this well, so.

[Lucas Pinkert]

I know parts of the answer for me. Why do you think you're hesitant to do this?

[JP Donnell]

I don't like conflict.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah.

[JP Donnell]

I just had a conversation with somebody the other day. I was like, hey, man, I just. I need to talk through some things. I feel like there's conflict between us. It's something I feel. I don't know if you feel it. And to be honest, I put off this conversation because I didn't want to create more conflict. And they just start laughing. They're like, bro. They're like, that is so funny and spot on. They're like, I feel the same way. They're like, I haven't had the conversation because I didn't want to create conflict. And they also said they're like, I know our. Our friendship is so strong that this conflict really doesn't mean anything. He goes, but I'm glad that you said this. And he goes, and I wish I would have called you 10 minutes earlier, because had I called you first and had this conversation, you would be saying the same thing I'm saying.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Right.

[JP Donnell]

And I'm like, you're right. And. And so I know my personal flaw is, even though I've got to phrase this the right way so it doesn't come off cocky or arrogant, even though I know I have the capabilities of having good, effective conversations because of what I do at Echelon Front and the years of just working on it. Yeah, I know. Naturally, I just have never really been a good communicator, you know, speech impediment, speech therapy, growing up, a lot of insecurities. So I would just not communicate and talk a lot because, you know, I'll mix up my words or, you know, I'll make up words. Which, by the way, is a really cool skill set to have when you speak for a living. Yeah. Good. There's one of us that loves it.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Hey, I think it's awesome. If I know what you said, then it's a word.

[JP Donnell]

There's been so many times I've done that where people will look at me and I'm like, I wasn't a real word. And they're trying to be nice. They're like, no, no, no. We knew what you meant. So it makes sense now. Yeah, it's a real word now. Yeah. So I know my just. My insecurity is I don't want to create conflict, so I'll just kind of let things go. And when things get better, it's like, all right, cool. We're good. But what's crazy is I also know that when I have those conversations, I always feel better afterwards because I also don't go into those conversations unprepared. Like, I think about it. I role play it in my mind. I might call somebody else and say, hey, man, getting ready to have this conversation? What do you think? Hey, could you role play a couple different scenarios so I can work through them? I don't go into those conversations not prepared. And so they get the outcome that I want of just like, hey, let's get alignment. Let's get on the same page. Yeah, try to go into those unemotional. Because detachment is a superpower. And if I go into emotional, then I'm going to say or do something that I not do something. I'm going to say something that, you know, might not be effective. You know, and so I don't know. I think. I don't know. It's not that I don't know. I have avoided those over the years just because I don't like the conflict. Yeah, I'm just. I am not comfortable with conflict. I don't like arguing. I don't like fighting with people. I just. It bothers me, which is not a good thing. Because in life there's. It's going to require us to have hard conversations. And if we frame it the right way, if we can do what Trey did with me in this text message and make it very clear that, hey, this is from a position of love. This is feedback like, I care about you. It should be received the right way. And if it's not, well, hey, guess what? That's an indicator to me that my. That my relationship with that person wasn't as strong as I thought. And. And I need to focus on building that relationship because if I have a really good, strong relationship, I can have those hard conversations with good intentions and have it professionally framed the right way, and we're going to get the outcome that we want.

[Lucas Pinkert]

So there's a. There's an old joke from a deceased comedian named Mitch Hedberg that he was talking about whenever he was writing jokes, that he kept a notepad with him. And if he thought of a joke and it was funny, it would write it down. But if the notepad was across the room, he would sit there and convince himself that the joke wasn't that funny so he didn't have to get up and go write it down.

[JP Donnell]

And.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Like, I think with a lot of these types of things, like, that's what I do, that I convince myself that the thing is not that big a deal that it's me and not the other person. And so it doesn't need to be talked about. I just need to get over it and then move on. And so when it's interpersonal conflict, I think that's the thing that we tend to do when it's, when it's other people. Like, I know how to coach them through it.

[JP Donnell]

Yeah, go ahead. Yeah. No, no. Yeah, right.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Like that's it. I would, I would have a field day if I was my own consultant. Like I would make so much money off of me.

[JP Donnell]

It would be that chick fil a money just pranking.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Exactly. So I, I caught myself in, in this today. I was having a conversation with, with one of the guys in the studio and we were talking about something. I was like, you know, the, the problem that we seem to have is that you wait to address issues until there are so many that have added up to where you can't help but address it because they're affecting your attitude. And I need you to address them when they're. Before they become issues. Before it begins to foster resentment. When the shoes on the other foot, I'm just like, I choose not to be resentful. Done. Conflict solved. Like it's crazy. It's just, it's incredible. The mental gymnastics will, will do because. And my, I mean, you've met Heather, my secretary.

[JP Donnell]

She. Yes, love her. Awesome woman.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Confronted me about this a couple of weeks ago when we were talking about things. She was like, you avoid conflict. I was like, I prefer to say I attempted to be a peacemaker. She's like, no, you, you do that.

[JP Donnell]

Doing a little word. You just.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah, right. She's like, you do that. You like when we're in conflict, you a good job of, of being a peacemaker, but you will also. She's like, when you're in conflict, you're fine, but you will find avenues where there are times where you would just have head on collisions with people. And she's like, but it seems like when it's a certain group of people and it's a certain set of issues, she's like, you're really great at playing chicken. It's like, I hate everything that you just said to me because that does not do very much for my ego.

[JP Donnell]

Yeah, but it's true. I'm, I'm phrasing, which you know.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah, go for it. You couldn't find whatever text message you were about to quote?

[JP Donnell]

No, it's a video. It's not a video. Jocko was giving feedback because he was speaking at this event. And there's all these, like, different leaders and different groups that, you know, were there talking as well. And it's beautiful the way it worked out because he ends up, like, going last. And all these, like, like high level leaders and former, like, high level military leaders and everything. They're like, you know, talk about you got to hold your people accountable. You got to hold them accountable. You gotta, you know, you gotta have those hard conversations. You gotta do those things, you know, blah, blah, blah. And they get to Jocko and he's like, yeah, I. I avoid hard conversations. And everybody was just like, right. But you know where I'm going. Not in the method of what we were just talking about.

[Lucas Pinkert]

You're talking about another thing I suck at, but go ahead.

[JP Donnell]

He goes, I avoid hard conversations. He said, like, everybody was just like, what? Like, they're not expecting that from Jocko.

[Lucas Pinkert]

From the cyborg gorilla.

[JP Donnell]

And so he explained, again, I wasn't there. I haven't heard the whole thing. But he was explaining it on one of our cadre calls with the instructors. And then I think brought it up on all hands call. You know how. Why he avoids hard conversations?

[Lucas Pinkert]

Because he doesn't have to have him. Because he's having all these other conversations that we don't want to have.

[JP Donnell]

Exactly.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Jerk.

[JP Donnell]

Exactly. He is having all the needed conversations along the way so that they don't get to the point where it is a hard conversation.

[Lucas Pinkert]

He's following the advice that we give other people.

[JP Donnell]

And you and I, it's not like, I don't want to be clear. It's not like you and I don't do these things. No, we do them. Yeah. I just don't like doing them.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah.

[JP Donnell]

And I don't do them as much when it comes to, like, what Trey did.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Right.

[JP Donnell]

You and I, I mean, jokes aside, we have hard conversations. We do. We've had hard conversations with each other. We've coached each other through car conversations with other people. Like, we do this.

[Lucas Pinkert]

And I know.

[JP Donnell]

And we're a sounding board for each other. So I want our listeners listen, like our listeners that are listening to be like, wait, hold on. We do these things. Lucas and I were going down a little rabbit hole of making fun of ourselves because we don't like it.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Right.

[JP Donnell]

We. We don't like doing it. And Jocko's the same way. He doesn't like conflict, like, whether. Whatever you think about that, like, half cyborg, half silverback gorilla, man. That's. I Always reference to him. I know you've heard me say that the most. I'm like, yeah, the guy that looks like a cyborg and a silverback gorilla had a baby. Yeah, that's my new Boss. When I'm 22 years old, I'm terrified. But I also know, and I say that Jocko is also one of the most loving leaders that I've ever worked for. Jocko, Leif and Seth, incredible leaders. Loving leaders, compassionate leaders. Also pretty intense and intimidating humans.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Oh, 100%.

[JP Donnell]

But also the best leaders I've ever worked for because they care and they don't have to have those hard conversations. And they, as Jocko said, avoid hard conversations because they're taking preemptive ownership of conflict that might be arising and they start formulating conversations and they also build really good strong relationships. So if you and I have a really good strong relationship, which we do, and if we ever have to have a quote, hard conversation with each other, it's not actually going to be that hard of a conversation.

[Lucas Pinkert]

No. And really what it amounts to is the next time we have to have a hard conversation with each other. Because it's inevitable in any relationship, whether it's a friendship or otherwise. And I think the reason that this particular uncomfortable conversation we're having is such an important one is because I don't believe anyone except for people that are probably like really close to us would think you or I are non confrontational or that they, they wouldn't believe that we, we try to avoid any of these things. Because I have been accused by some of, of intentionally like trying to, not like instigating but that like, I'm like, I don't mind making people uncomfortable. No, I don't. But that we're not people, we're not guys that anyone would describe as passive and probably not. And when it comes to this type of thing, I do think that there are several people who would be surprised. One, that we, we do try to avoid these, these conversations. And two, that there are people that were close to each other included that would be like, yeah, yeah, he does try to avoid a little bit of conflict if, if possible. And, and then we, and we've got wonderful ways of, of trying to justify it because my, no, I can just deal. I'm just choosing not to be resentful. Seems like that's one of those things like, boy, that seems really good. That seems like a really big mature thing. But the truth is that's not really why I'm doing it. It's that I don't want to have to deal with this, so it's easier for me to assign it away to another drawer.

[JP Donnell]

Well, I think the thing that I go to is I also, the last couple years, as I've thought more about these things and taught these things and try to live and implement these things, is I ask myself, is it really worth it? Because there are some things that, as somebody from the outside was looking at, it's like, hey, why haven't you had that conversation with that person? Because it's not worth it. Like, it's actually. It's actually not worth it because I recognize that the friendship that I thought I had wasn't actually what I thought it was, or, you know, the relationship wasn't what I thought it was. So it's like, okay, cool. Like, that's fine. Like, I thought it was here, but it's actually over here. All right, that's. That is what it is.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Expectations are dusted.

[JP Donnell]

Yes. And it's fine. It doesn't mean that I don't want that relationship to go back to where I thought it was or be stronger, but it's like, this is what I have here. So cool. Time and energy. Where can I shift it? Or. I'm sorry, where does it need to be delivered? There's a lot of other places that I could be shifting my time and energy to. The other thing that I really wish I could get a hold of if there's a video of Jocko speaking at this event, because I'd be interested to know if he talked about. The other aspect to that is the indirect approach is because as a leader, if you can use the indirect approach, which we should be using all the time, that also is a method of avoiding hard conversations. Because if I can go indirect and somebody sees it on their own, then they're the ones that are taking the ownership to make the changes needed.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah. I can't imagine if he had the opportunity to talk about the indirect approach, then he wouldn't do it because it's a favorite topic of his and he's.

[JP Donnell]

So good at it.

[Lucas Pinkert]

And it's obnoxious because it's so convicting every. You know, it's funny because I want to do the.

[JP Donnell]

Oh, yeah.

[Lucas Pinkert]

I want to do the head on collision thing because it.

[JP Donnell]

Because that's driven by our ego. Well, because we feel like it's what we should do and it feels. It feels good.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah. Yeah. And when you do the head on collision thing, a lot of stuff happens now. It's not always good stuff. There's a lot of fallout. But stuff happened.

[JP Donnell]

Yeah. And. Yeah, but then when you detach from your emotions and step back, you're like, oh, those things that happened, dang, those actually weren't good carnage. Yeah. I could have avoided all of that.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah.

[JP Donnell]

That's why the indirect approach is the best method. No, I know you're not just, you know, putting that out there. You can pick it up if you want or you just leave it there. Leif and I were talking today, actually. No, yeah, we've had a couple really good conversations this week.

[Lucas Pinkert]

I need to call him. We need to catch up.

[JP Donnell]

I haven't talked late. Give him a call tomorrow. Sure. He'll answer right away. I'll put it on his calendar. Uncle Leif, he life was reminding me of. You know, I was talking to Jocko Leif last year at one of the musters and I asked Jocko for some direct feedback. I'm like, hey, I want very, very direct feedback from you. Like, I want direct feedback. I need it. I'm asking for it. So please, like, this is not the time to be indirect. Be direct with me. And okay, if somebody requests that direct feedback. All right.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Give the people what they want.

[JP Donnell]

Evaluate it.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah.

[JP Donnell]

Because what Jocko told me I was frustrated with. I'm like, that is not direct. I want direct feedback.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Tell me what to fix.

[JP Donnell]

Yeah, exactly. And I was frustrated and I expressed my frustrations with him and with Leif. And Leif reminded me, he goes, jocko was being very direct with you. You know what to do and he told you what to do. And the advice Jocko gave me was just keep doing what we teach and you'll be okay. So you can see my frustrations.

[Lucas Pinkert]

That's the one, that's the perfect answer. But two, that's the biggest non answer that anybody could ever give as far as the way you could take it.

[JP Donnell]

It's the most non answer direct answer that I needed. It was the answer because Jocko realized what I was needing was a reminder, not direction of specifically, do this, don't do this, change this, do that.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Stop saying like, okay, cool.

[JP Donnell]

What? You know, like he, he gave me a direct answer.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah.

[JP Donnell]

And because in my brain I was wanting a more hands on approach when I didn't need it. Now, has there been times that Jocko and Leif have been hands on with directions to me? Absolutely.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah.

[JP Donnell]

Because I needed it and they knew that I needed it. And it wasn't in a negative manner. It was like, hey, for my progression of growth, they needed that. Dave's done the same thing with me. Jamie's done the same thing with me. You know, like, that's what we do as a team. We help each other out. This was not a situation where I needed that. And what Jocko did was incredible. And the way Leif helped me see it was also incredible. He just reminded me, hey, jp, I know you were frustrated and you felt like it wasn't the direct answer, but it was the direct answer. Keep doing what we teach. Do what we teach. That's the answer. Because they know that what I'm doing in my world, in my perspective, I'm gonna have the answers. And good leaders don't micromanage and they don't tell their people how to do things.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah.

[JP Donnell]

So it was just a really cool, like. Yep. Moment. And I. I think that story aligns with everything we've been talking about.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah. Everything. It's. It's just one of those that, like, sometimes the. The best piece of advice is to double down and. And then that's it.

[JP Donnell]

So fun. Fun note, as before we close it out, you know, we're talking about fun notes. Four day weekend when my buddy Brian and I went on that double date with our wives. I don't know if we talked about this previous in the podcast, but, like, some drunk idiot was there acting a fool. And the manager, she went to go kick him out, and he tried to get physically aggressive with her. And. And I was watching it kind of all go to play or sorry, come come into play into fruition. And so I got upward. I hate you right now. Can you edit that?

[Lucas Pinkert]

No. That was the word I was going to use was fruition. You came out with that.

[JP Donnell]

I was like, that's what you're talking about When I said it, like, no, no. My word salad.

[Lucas Pinkert]

No. Yeah. No. Fruition's a great word.

[JP Donnell]

Yeah.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah.

[JP Donnell]

And so I'm seeing things come into fruition, Lucas. And. And so I, you know, all right, I have my fanny pack, so I'm not worried about having to take my wallet out of my back pocket, put it in front of the wallet in case, you know, there's a little scuffle. Put my cell phone in my front pocket just because in the back pocket could fall out, whatever. And I, you know, stand up watching, and I'll get a little bit closer, kind of closing the distance in case something does happen. I want to be there close to react. And it came to the point, I mean, he is get, like, being vulgar and aggressive towards this female. And I step in, I'm like, and we're done here. I was like, you're gonna leave? And he's, like, looking at me and, like, trying to get aggressive with me. And he was, like, sitting down in the chair now. And his buddy, like, like, tries to come up next to me on my side to, like, try to, like, de. Escalate things for his friend. And the manager's like, I'm calling the cops. And she. So she backs up, so she knows, like, I have that barrier between her and him, so she feels a little bit safe. And he's just being super vulgar. Me. Then his buddy, like, tries to come in and tells me, like, he's just, like, basically trying to, like, be like, hey, he's okay. We're staying. And I just put my hand on his shoulder trap area and just. I didn't squeeze it, but I just applied a little bit of pressure. I said, your buddy is leaving. Now, whether he leaves on his own accord or my accord, that choice is yours. And then all of a sudden, I see Brian just right here on my flank, right behind this guy.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah.

[JP Donnell]

I'm like, all right, we're good, man. Like, two on one. I think I'm still good, but, you know, that could go bad. Now, Brian and I with these guys, I'm like, dude, we're good. And again, we're not there to start a fight. We don't want to fight. We don't want conflict. But I'm also not going to allow some guy to be aggressive and vulgar and start threatening a female. And I'm just going to sit there. Zero chance that happens. Zero chance. And I'm also putting in the calculus, like, hey, man, there's people out fighting filming this right now. I work for Echelon front.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah.

[JP Donnell]

This gets posted. Like, you know, I've got to make sure that I'm handling this right way. So I'm being calm, I'm being collective. And I'm just telling the guy, like, hey, your buddy's gonna leave. And, you know, he's like, oh. And I'm like, hey, your buddy is leaving in five, four, three. He goes, oh, hold on, hold on. Yeah, yeah, I got you. Because, like, I'm looking at him as I'm counting down, like, like, hey, we're not doing this.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah.

[JP Donnell]

Because his other buddy was, like, starting to try to get aggressive, and it was, like, gonna, like, stand up. And so I was, like, counting it down to be like, hey, like, this is gonna happen. And I was trying to urge his friend to be like, step it. And he finally did whatever. He gets his friend out of there, and the guy's like. He stands up and his buddies, and of course now he's telling me all these things that he's gonna do me outside. He's gonna be waiting for me. I'm like, all right, cool, man. Like, hey, you're leaving. You need to leave. And, like, he flips over some table, almost hit somebody when he flipped over the table, Almost hit my wife when he flipped over the table. And, you know, the ladies that were behind him that he was also being really rude to. Like, there's a few pregnant women there, too. So I'm also trying not to escalate this because collateral damage, like, so I'm trying to mitigate all this stuff. And Brian is literally thinking through all the same things. And so, you know, escalated to the point of like, hey, you are going to leave. You need to leave. But we didn't get confrontational. We didn't get aggressive with them. It was like, no, you're going to leave. Like, hey, you have five seconds to get your buddy out of here, here. Or he is going to be removed. And, you know, I'd already kind of formulated within my brain, like, okay, cool. Like, hey, like this how I'm going to kind of neutralize this guy. I'm going to pull him away from the group towards the front. There's nobody up there.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Like, you've got things thought through fairly well.

[JP Donnell]

Yeah, for sure. And I know Brian is doing the same thing. And he's also like, cover move. He's just going to follow my lead. Like, I'm going to handle this guy. He's going to pro. I was assuming he's probably just going to grab the guy and turn around and look at him. Be like, you're not doing anything. And Brian's not a small guy. So Brian grabs you and he turns around and says that the guy's gonna be like, yes, sir.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah, okay.

[JP Donnell]

Yeah, cool. So, you know, the guy leaves, whatever. You know, Brian and I are, like, fixing the tables, chairs, and everything. And people like, thank you so much. Like, all those ladies are like, dude, thank you so much. Like, this is crazy. Manager comes up, she's like, gives us a big hug. She's like, what are you guys drinking? I was like, I'm not drinking anything. She's like, what's your wife drinking? And look at Amanda. Man's like, I don't know. Whatever. You know, I bring you something cool. Like, if not, not a deal. Like, yeah. She's like, oh, fruity. You Got some wine, champagne, whatever. And so we have a really good night and, you know, we leave. I was speaking at an event a few months ago in June out at a, like a big school district business area. It was a couple hours away from here upand cominging area, and the community, like, you know, put this big event on. And, you know, I was one of the keynote speakers there. And I'm there and they're, you know, explaining to me, like, the different speakers, and I'm like, oh, cool, awesome. And so I go to the event and it's the owners of four Day weekend.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Oh, cool.

[JP Donnell]

Yeah. And I was like, hey, very nice to meet you guys. We're talking. I was like, hey, funny story. I was like, I was actually at one of your events at this location. This happened. They're like, you're the guy. You're like, dude, like, you and your buddy are like our heroes.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Wow.

[JP Donnell]

They're like the manager, you know, because we debriefed the whole thing. And they're like, we changed. We. We had to put new SOPs in place because of this. They're like, we are so than thankful that you were there. They're like, she was, like, really bothered by that.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah, no doubt.

[JP Donnell]

And. And they were like, dude, thank you for, like, being a man and stepping up and helping. They're like, and you also didn't make it worse. Like, you guys handled it the right way. So anyway, we're talking and everything. And they're like, hey, man. The owner's like, here's my number. Anytime you guys want to come to a show, we got you taken care of. I'm like, no, we'd love to support. And they're like, not gonna happen. You come to a show, we got you taken care of. And so we were talking about the podcast, and I was, man, I'd. You know, because they have built an incredible business, not just from the comedy standpoint, but they. They give speeches to companies and corporations. They've worked with American Airlines and a lot of other companies. They've done a lot of really cool stuff. So their story of what they've done in business is impressive. And then they have these coaching methods that they do through comedy for different events and teach leadership and everything. And I was like, man. And their message and my message, big shocker, had a lot of overlap. What I know. So it was really cool. And those guys actually want to come on the podcast as well. I'm ready. So it was just a really cool, like, situation.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Connection. Connection.

[JP Donnell]

And as I mentioned, Brian earlier from working with his team at, you know, at that organization today. It just reminded me of that story and it was just funny. Little has nothing to do with what we talked about. But just want to put that, I.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Mean, it, it does kind of reinforce the reason that like a lot of people might not think that we don't struggle with conflict because situations like that where the, you know, it's the nobody else is going to step up.

[JP Donnell]

I see what you're saying that we'll move into that.

[Lucas Pinkert]

And then hearing, oh, you know, there quite a few occasions where I try to avoid conflict. People like, what? That doesn't make sense. It's like, yeah, but it's, it's different. It's different when you're stepping up into a situation and you know that you're doing the right thing and protecting other people versus stepping up in a situation where you're like, but guess what?

[JP Donnell]

But yeah, having that hard conversation is also doing the right thing 100%. It's just different because it's not as like, it's not as rewarding to our ego. Like me stepping in physically to stop a guy being aggressive with a female feeds my ego.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah.

[JP Donnell]

And it's the right thing to do. Whole other topic for a whole other time. Like why. Why were Brian and I the only two guys that did that? There's a problem.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah.

[JP Donnell]

Why was everybody else sitting back with their phones out?

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yep.

[JP Donnell]

Not just females, but men just sitting there videoing.

[Lucas Pinkert]

It's a societal and cultural issue that we've dealt with.

[JP Donnell]

It is for sure. Yeah. But it's also a societal and cultural issue of people not resolving conflict and having those hard conversations when they should. So with that, I think we can kind of close it out quickly.

[Lucas Pinkert]

If you guys want to be a part of. Of much softer conversations in this, join us on Instagram. Go follow JP. He's @jpdonell. Go follow the P. Dent podcast. You can follow me at Lucas Pinkert. Follow our folks over at first in Nutrition as well. You can go to firstinnutrition.com JP Podcast get four free weeks of nutrition coaching. You can also enter. They get some contests going on. There's a few tickets left to muster 023 in Orlando, which is right outside the home base of our folks in at First End. Ethan Bernard, who if you've been following his journey, he will be there hanging out. Dave Burke, author of the need to Lead will be there signing books.

[JP Donnell]

Such a good book.

[Lucas Pinkert]

It's such a. So I'm, I'm rereading on, on the treadmill as I'm. I'm trying to give me a warm up.

[JP Donnell]

My, my second run through right now is the audio.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Oh, yeah, bro.

[JP Donnell]

He does a phenomenal job reading.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Does he? Is there just Kenny Loggins playing in the background the whole time? No. That's a little bit of a bummer. But I'll fly into the danger zone with Dave Burke anytime I'm done. So check out at Echelon Front also, you can look at the Extreme Ownership trilogy. Extreme Ownership Dichotomy of leadership. Need to lead by Dave Berger. Go meet the guys at the muster, or if you can't make it to Orlando, hop on the Extreme Ownership Online Academy. Get on those, those Monday afternoon calls where you'll get to ask Dave questions. Just like with all the other folks. Part of the Echelon Front trainer cadre. There's a bunch of just great value that's in there each and every week as well as all the online courses. Check out Little Cattle Co to get part of the beef tallow products, the skin care, the itch care or the itch cream, the after sun care. All that stuff's awesome. We use all of it on our kids. It's freaking amazing. On the path you guys are printing shirts, what tomorrow you print some hoodies.

[JP Donnell]

For, for Mama Lee.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yep. Which if you are not already on the email list for America's Mighty warriors, you need to get on it. They've got some cool stuff happening for Black Friday where you can not only get some cool gear, but also one of the best causes going on in the United States right now, helping out our warriors who have come home and don't get all the care that they need from the VA and, and other places. Go check out Bruiser Arms if you want to get the packages and the training that JP Laf and Jocko did, it's their company. They're putting together custom gear packages, custom training that you can be a part of. Go follow arms, shoot them a direct message if you want to be a part of that. And then check out Jocko Fuel. It's the stuff that keeps us recovering and, and moving in the right direction. They now have the, the colostrum stuff.

[JP Donnell]

I think it's collagen.

[Lucas Pinkert]

So it's. It's colostrum plus collagen.

[JP Donnell]

Oh, okay.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So tons of health benefits related to both of those things and recovery and joint care and skin care and all of those.

[JP Donnell]

The.

[Lucas Pinkert]

All of that stuff. Yeah, you go. You want to check it out? You're like, oh, you know what? I've heard a lot about this. It's a thing a lot of supplement companies are putting out there. I want the cleanest version of it. Go. Good. Go to jockofuel.com use code JP Pod20, save 20 on it whenever you go.

[JP Donnell]

Check it out. Let's go.

[Lucas Pinkert]

And then go. Go order some stuff from origin usa. It's. We, we talked about Pete Roberts earlier. He's bringing manufacturing back to America. They said it couldn't be done. He's doing it. My origin boots are in. They're about halfway through year two now. Oh, no, no, no. We're. We're coming up halfway through year three now on those origin boots and, and I just put a new shine on them. They're still working soldiers still good. I wear them, ride in them. They're scuffed up and all kinds of stuff. And then a little bit of wax and magically goes away because it's, it's made with pure American craftsmanship. Yeah. Still doing stuff the right way.

[JP Donnell]

Yeah. Yep. So I love it.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Final thoughts. For us.

[JP Donnell]

Avoiding conflict is. Is good. You should avoid conflict. However, comma, that doesn't mean avoid having the hard conversations. There are. There is a time and place that, yes, you need to step in, step up if there is conflict, to help defend somebody, to protect them, to keep them safe. But we should also avoid conflict at all cost. We absolutely should. That's one of the things I love that Jocko talks about when he's teaching Jiu Jitsu to people. Hey, first step, run away. If you can run away, run away. Somebody gets your hands on you. Cool. Do what you need to do. Neutralize the threat. Run away. Yep. Avoid conflict because your ego is going to tell you, hey, no, you should go handle that. And I've seen so many different just incidences with different people where like, the outcome was not good. You know, my buddy, Guy Metzger, USC pride fight hall of Famer, stepped in to avoid conflict of a guy and a girl fighting. And it was a couple. And as he's stepping in to try to help, he gets severely cut by the dude that had a knife. And we're talking one of the best fighters in the world.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah.

[JP Donnell]

Had no idea the guy had a knife and almost lost function of his arm because of that. Avoid conflict. Avoid physical conflict at all costs. But if you have conflict in your life when it comes to relationships, go address it. Be default aggressive to have the hard conversations. Go into that hard conversation, prepared to be professional, to be respectful and ask yourself, hey, what does winning look like? And what winning looks like should be alignment. And so go into that conversation with the intent of helping that person, fixing problems and getting alignment. But it's not going to happen until you go do it. So with that, I hope this episode has been a reminder to go do the work that's needed to put in the effort to build your legacy and to never settle. This has been the JP Denal podcast, episode 113.