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JP Dinnell Podcast
Beyond the Battle of Ramadi with Former Navy SEAL Andrew Paul | JP Dinnell Podcast 118
02:43:53
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- [00:00]
A
Good morning. This is the JP Donnell podcast, episode 118. I am JP Donnell, and as always, I have my buddy Lucas with me. And tonight I have the honor of being able to sit down with one of my old tasking a bruiser teammates. He graduated BUDS with Leif Babin, Seth Stone. We all went through SQT together with Leif and Seth. He was one of the other officers in the SQT class, which stands for SEAL Qualification Training. It is the advanced training that you do after buds before you check in the SEAL teams. And he is one of the good leaders in the class that showed me what good leadership looked like. After SQT. We went different ways with our careers in SEAL teams, but after our first workup deployment, on our second workup, he came over to SEAL Team 3, where we served alongside each other in Delta Platoon under Seth Stone, who was our officer in charge. And this gentleman was our assistant officer in charge in Delta Platoon. If you want to learn more about him, he was on jocko podcast episode 42 where they dive deep into his story. He runs a successful mortgage business where he specializes in VA home loans, which I'm very thankful for the help that he provided Amanda and I. He decided to start running Crazy fifty and even Hundred Mile Home ultramarathons. He is also a leadership instructor at Echelon Front. And one of my good friends, Andrew. Paul. How are you?
- [01:33]
B
Good, man. Thanks for having me, man.
- [01:34]
A
Appreciate you making the time to make this happen. I know we've been talking about it for a while, but, you know, you and I are going to be doing an FTX tomorrow and Saturday here in the Dallas Fort Worth area. So it worked out. How's your trip out?
- [01:46]
B
Easy.
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A
Good.
- [01:48]
B
Straight shot.
- [01:48]
A
I like it. Lucas, what's up, buddy?
- [01:51]
C
I am. I'm doing good. I remember as we were prepping for this earlier this week, you said, andrew's coming out for the ftx. And I was like, oh, is he going to participate so he can see what it's like? And then I stopped myself and I.
- [02:01]
B
Was like, never mind.
- [02:03]
C
He knows.
- [02:05]
A
The question was. So it was.
- [02:09]
C
It was genuine. It was genuine, but it was not well thought out.
- [02:13]
A
No, no. It really threw me for a loop.
- [02:15]
C
It really threw me for a loop too, because it left. I was like, wait a minute. You know the FTX is based off the. He doesn't need to do it. So. Yep. You guys have fun and call me when I'm supposed to be in the studio.
- [02:26]
B
I'm not gonna.
- [02:26]
C
I'm not gonna say a word to Anybody for the rest of the week.
- [02:29]
A
It was hilarious because Lucas came out and helped out One of the FTX's getting some like, media for Noah and Kim on the media side. And I believe it was one where Lauren had just got hired on the OPS team.
- [02:41]
B
Yep.
- [02:42]
A
And since she lives drivable distance, they're like, hey, come check it out. And Cody had the idea of like, hey, like let's let her run through the ftx. So she was brand new to Echelon and went through the two day individual.
- [02:55]
B
Welcome to the team.
- [02:55]
A
Yeah, welcome. Welcome to the team. New guy. Tell us about yourself.
- [02:58]
B
Yeah, shut up.
- [03:01]
A
But no, Lauren did a great job and it was really cool seeing her go through that and. But it was funny when Lucas asked that question. I was trying to process, like, why would Andrew go through the ftx? He's a leadership instructor. We were in a platoon together. And then it clicked that he had seen Lauren do that. And we've, he also knows that we've been talking about trying to put together an FTX for the OPS team to be able to go through sometime in the future just so they can see it and feel it and have an understanding. You know, Chris Deming came out and helped out on one of the last individual FTXs. And you know, afterwards he was like, man, I'm, I'm so glad I was able to see this because now I can really understand it because you hear about it but like to really understand it.
- [03:44]
C
So I just want to make sure that you were able to really understand it, that's all.
- [03:48]
B
You know, I've got a lot to learn and I'm not joking, so I'm sure I will learn a bunch while I'm out here. Anyway, dude, I'm stoked, man.
- [03:54]
A
Being an instructor at Echelon Front is outside of the SEAL team is the.
- [03:58]
B
Best job like it is and, and a constant reminder to be humble because, you know, we have to teach these principles and the moment you catch yourself doing something contrary to the principles, you're like, okay, I cannot be a hypocrite. I gotta like actually live what I teach. And you're constantly got this mirror in.
- [04:15]
A
Front of yourself, you know, which I love. Yeah. And it's a great opportunity for us to honor our fallen teammates, which I know we'll get into. You know, you have a really cool story about, you know, your family, just history in the military. You know, let's talk about like, where'd you grow up, what was your childhood like and what was your path into the military?
- [04:38]
B
Yeah. So grew up in New England. I know we're down here in Texas. Carpetbagger down here for the podcast. Grew up in New Hampshire, you know, and small town, not a lot going on. Couldn't, couldn't wait to get out of the small town, you know. You know, and it's funny because now as I get older, I'm like, man, that was a really great place to be from, you know, beautiful, quiet New Hampshire, if you don't know, is the live free or die state. So I was raised in like a very conservative. When I say conservative, I don't even necessarily mean politically, more like civil liberties. Like New Hampshire is all about civil liberties. Like for example, like here are the things that I remember from growing up around there. And I don't know if it's still the case, but there's no helmet laws, there's no seat. There were for the longest time was no seatbelt laws. There probably is now. In fact, I think I remember that changing when I was growing up. But at the time, I know you didn't have to have car insurance. Again, that may not be the case anymore. There's no income tax, there's no sales tax. So it's kind of like this government stay out of my life kind of an attitude. Now over time that kind of thing starts to change. Right? New Hampshire is surrounded by a bunch of states that have a very different way of running things. And those people, you know, they like to come to New Hampshire because they like the no income tax, they like the no sales tax, and tend to bring their bad ideas with them. But anyway, I mean, that's how I really feel about it. So having said that, I grew up in New Hampshire. In New Hampshire again, again, the state motto is Live free or die. Live free or die. So that's kind of how I was raised. And I grew up in what I would say is like a military family. Everybody, every adult male that I knew growing up served in the military. Except for my own father. He just didn't come from that background. He grew up in New York, in the city, et cetera. But my grandfather on my mother's side was really like kind of like the patriarch of our family. And everybody lived very close. Like so we would always be coming over to my house or the grandparents house for Thanksgiving, for Christmas. So I have all these memories of every everybody getting together. Is there a way to get together? I grew up hearing all these stories from all my family members, especially the adult males that I looked up to, what it was like for Them to serve in the, in the military. My grandfather was a B17 pilot in World War II.
- [07:03]
A
So was mine.
- [07:04]
B
No way.
- [07:04]
A
Yeah.
- [07:04]
B
It's awesome. So much is lost to history. Who knows if they knew each other? They very well may have. You know, it's a kind of a small community.
- [07:14]
A
That was a very small community.
- [07:15]
B
Yeah.
- [07:15]
C
Especially the guys that survived.
- [07:17]
B
Yeah.
- [07:18]
C
You know, after watching stuff like Masters of the Air and stuff like that, man, saying those guys, what they went.
- [07:23]
B
Through, the stories that I heard growing up, I mean, I don't remember them all, but I mean, like the ones that, like, I remember the strongest of my grandfather saying. And he, my grandfather called me Andy. He's like the only person that called me Andy Andy. Because I tell you, I don't know. I don't know sometimes I don't know how we made it back. We came back. There were so many holes in that airplane. I don't even know how it was still flying. Those are the stories I remember from him, you know, and so the name of his, his B17, the name of that plane was the Weary Willie. And it's amazing. And when I talk, when, when I go on site, work with companies and talk about leadership, I like to talk about my grandfather. Obviously, I looked after him. He made a massive impact on me as a young man. But also what I like to talk about, my grandfather in that entire generation, right. We often. So my grandfather, 17 years old, enlisted in what was then called the Army Air Corps. Very quickly became an officer and a pilot. And by the time he was 21. And we have this news clipping that I found in a shoebox, like after he died. By the time he was 21 years old, he had completed his 50th long range bombing raid over Nazi Germany in the European theater. By 21, he had the Distinguished Flying Cross and three air medals and, you know, 21. So in that generation, Right. We refer to that generation as the greatest generation. And so what I like to remind people of and what he. With that spirit, what that reminds me of is what young men and women are actually capable of.
- [09:01]
A
Yep.
- [09:02]
B
In this day and age, what I see happening is telling young men, especially young men, but young men, we think that they can't do things first. They put off this level of responsibility until they're much later. But look at what was demanded of that generation at such a young age. As kids climbing into an airplane long range without gps, without, you know, detailed radio navigation systems like we have today, and the technology and the tools and, and they pulled it Off.
- [09:36]
A
You know what's crazy is we served in the SEAL teams together. We went through SQT together. Some of, like, my greatest memories, which I have a lot of them, but is us in sqt, you know, you, stoner and I in that squad just getting after it, and then obviously, our tasking or bruiser days. But how crazy is this? We went through SQT together. We fought alongside each other in the battle of Ramadi, and now, I mean, you got me my first home loan, which is, like, really cool. Like, I know that doesn't seem like a big deal, but to me, I'm like, bro, that was one of my teammates that helped me and my wife buy our first house. We worked together at Echelon front, and our grandfathers did the same thing.
- [10:20]
B
Yeah, it's wild. Yeah.
- [10:22]
A
Now I don't know, and I'm actually kind of embarrassed. I don't know the ages, like, the age timeframe, like, you just shared with your grandfather of my grandpa Johnson. My aunt C.J. and uncle Eric would know, but same thing.
- [10:35]
B
Yeah.
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A
Like, that's just so crazy. And I love what you said is what are. What our youth is capable of. So and so you saw that in yourself.
- [10:46]
B
Well, here. Yes. And what I talk to some companies about, very. Not all the time, but, like. But it's a somewhat common complaint. Lament, excuse. People will say, oh, it's so hard to find good help these days. You know, this generation, this woke generation, Like, I mean, this is not my words. This is what I hear. No, it's not.
- [11:13]
A
You know, I hear the same thing.
- [11:15]
B
And, you know, here's the thing. Every generation says that about the next generation. You know what I mean? Like, our parents probably say, oh, boy, kids these days. Right? Like that. Right, Right. Okay. So what I like to remind companies and leaders that I work with who are needing to grow their companies, what does the future of their organizations look like? It's grounded in the idea that you have to find, attract, train, and retain the best talent. That's the future of our companies. That's the future of our nation. And let me tell you, they're out there. And the reason I know that. The reason I know that is because. And I'm skipping a generation or two here. My oldest son, Tristan, who was. Who was born on my first deployment, is now an active duty Marine serving on his first deployment.
- [12:15]
A
Dude.
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B
And a year and a half, almost two years ago now, I went to his boot camp graduation at Marine Corps Recruit Depot San Diego, and I watched as about 1200 young men and Women marched in formation, stood at attention in a crisp uniform, rose, raised their hands and swore an oath to defend this country, our way of life. And it was inspiring. I also heard, by the way, I also heard they were calling out a couple of names here. There's maybe eight or nine of them, you know, so and so from Peru, so and so from Morocco. And there were these young men and women who were. Who were earning their citizenship by serving in the United States Marine Corps. And they became citizens that day, at the completion of their boot camp, I was like, that's somebody who wants it. That's somebody who's earned it. But bottom line is I watched 1200 Young Men and women absolutely capable. And so that's my inspiration to people, leaders and companies. They're out there, but you got to find them. There are young men and women. They want to make a difference. They want to be a part of something. And. And they're there. It's up to you to find them and train them and keep them and retain them.
- [13:37]
A
Yeah, I want to share something. I've shared this a few times, and I think you'll agree with this before we dive into, like your childhood and your journey in the military, which I know we opened that door and. Yeah, no, I love that you shared that. No, because that's the intent behind this podcast is to share lessons with our. From our guests from their time in the military, business, life, marriage, whatever, you know, share their faith. You know, all those things that people can take and what you just said, every single one of our listeners can apply, whether it's an 18 year old listening going, oh, hey, I need to get my stuff together, or it's a 47 year old, you know, CEO that's frustrated with his workforce and goes, oh, you know, actually I can do a better job as a leader.
- [14:20]
B
Absolutely.
- [14:21]
A
The current SEAL teams are unreal. Like the new guys in the seal.
- [14:27]
B
The quality.
- [14:28]
A
Yes, the quality is incredible. Unreal in a great way.
- [14:31]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [14:32]
A
These guys are just physical phenoms. Like, they're getting better and smarter and stronger. You know, we have a kind of a loose acquaintance. His son is in the SEAL teams, and when he was sharing his stats with me the other day that his son is 6, 4, 2, 40. I know, I'm sorry. 632-40. Like with, like. I mean, he's ripped, like with an eight pack. Like, good Lord, man.
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B
Yeah, you know, you know, that wasn't a good look for me. So I just decided that, you know.
- [14:59]
A
Just decided, you know, we didn't Want to get over 6 foot? None of us at this table wanted to or can.
- [15:04]
C
That just didn't seem worth the effort. Yeah, I seem to have to try so hard.
- [15:10]
A
What, what was your childhood like?
- [15:13]
B
So growing up in New Hampshire, you know, I kind of go back to, you know, my grandfather. But then, you know, I'll tell you, like, my uncle Bill, 23 years in the Navy, retired as a master chief submariner. My uncle Bill just died a couple weeks ago. Awesome, amazing hero and great, such an influence on me. His, his two boys, my, my cousin Steve, 27 years in the Navy as a pilot. My other cousin Brian, these are cousins, are a little bit older than me. So again, I looked up to those guys too. You know, we'd always go over to their house. They were like in high school playing football. I was younger, so I mean these are all. And they all went in, they all served. And so I figured, you know, I'd probably go in the military one day too. And my dad, my dad wanted me to go to college. You know, he was like, gotta get a degree. You know, and my dad comes from. So my dad, he, my dad, my dad grew up really poor, like really poor in the Bronx in New York. And he, he comes from that generation where it was like, you got to get it, you got to get a degree. If you don't have a college degree, you're, you're not going to be anything. That's what he thought. So that's what he. Now I think that has shifted. We could talk about that. Like shifted a lot, right?
- [16:30]
A
But there's nothing wrong with a good college degree.
- [16:33]
B
Nothing wrong with that.
- [16:34]
A
If you have a path with that and it's something that you're passionate about. Like my sister who became a doctor, guess what, kind of need a degree for that.
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B
You got to.
- [16:41]
A
Absolutely super important.
- [16:43]
B
There are some jobs that you gotta have a degree. So anyway, my point though is that my dad was like, he was tunnel vision for if you wanna have a future, you gotta have a college degree. That's like the generation that he came from and that he wanted for me. I did. I was like 17 years old. 17 years old. Most people, I'm like, college maybe. You know, I wanted to be a Navy seal, right. And so I don't know where that idea came from. I saw the movie Navy Seals. I think that's probably single handedly the best documentary ever. Absolutely most realistic Navy SEAL for Charlie Sheen. Right. So that, and you know, and honestly, like Rogue Warrior, like I grew up like reading that book Right. Or Kelly, Brave men, dark orders. Like, that was, like, stuff I grew up with. And that was it. I just read those books, heard the lore, and again, just like, this is, knowing what I know now, what I'm about to say, it feels weird for me to say this, okay. But growing up as a kid, I was like, oh, the Navy SEALs are the best. So it's like, well, then that's what I want to do. You know what I mean? Now, obviously, our experience in combat, serving alongside incredible men from all branches of service, so similar, amazing heroes on, on all sides. I, I, I, it feels weird and awkward to say that even.
- [18:05]
A
Yeah, I, I agree. But, you know, that's what we were told from documentaries and books, movies, and, you know, that's what you hear. And, you know, there is, I know I have friends that went into the Marine Corps because they were told Marines were the best.
- [18:17]
B
Totally.
- [18:18]
A
And, you know, and then I have buddies that went in the army because they're like, army Rangers are the best. Green Braves are the best. All right, cool. You know, hey, pilots, the best go in the Air Force, you know, so it's, it depend what we hear and the information we're given. And for me, my brother and I watched a documentary on the SEAL teams, and from that moment, we were infatuated with it.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Now, I like your story about when you went to go talk to the college.
- [18:44]
B
So, okay, so again, so here comes the conflict between me and my dad, right? My dad's like, gotta go to college. I'm like, I just want to go be a seal. But you gotta understand, in those days.
- [18:55]
A
In those days, back in the day.
- [18:56]
B
Back in the day, there was very little information. There's. So today, by the way, today, if you want to be a seal, like, all the information you could possibly want is out there. Exactly who to talk to, what to do, what your numbers need to be. It was, it was an effort just to figure out how to get in there, you know, So I didn't really even know. How does one become a seal? Like, didn't really know. It was a big mystery. So we go down and look at a couple colleges, and we went down to Vanderbilt University, Nashville, Tennessee. We walk into this huge auditorium and, you know, it's like a tour of the school. And we walk into this huge auditorium and there's all these tables and booths set out around the outskirts of the room. And what it is, it's all the clubs and extracurricular activities you can join if you go to school there, you can join the chess club or whatever, right? Which, by the way, I like chess.
- [19:50]
A
But anyway, I was gonna say, I think you like chess.
- [19:51]
B
I. I just make fun of myself, so. But I so walk in there and as soon as we walk into this big auditorium over here on the side, I see this guy standing in a white uniform behind one of the tables. That catches my eye because again, I don't really want to be there. But like, you know, it's like the reticular activator in your brain. It's like all I can think about is military. I see that. I go over this table, right there on this guy's table is this big poster of a Navy seal. And I always tell people it's like it was like the only recruiting poster that existed and it was used on the COVID of video games and B roll movies and whatever. It was like the Navy SEAL with the full wetsuit on the Draeger rebreather. He's coming up over the beach, fins slung over the wrist, automatic weapon, laser sight, getting ready to shoot something, right? You know, And I'm like, what club is this? You know, what club is this? What club is this? He's got a poster of a Navy SEAL on the dang on table, right? And he goes, oh, this is rotc. I was like, well, what's that like? I didn't even know what ROTC was. And he very quickly went on to explain to me that rotc, Reserve Officer Training Corps, basically, if you go into this program, the Navy pays for you to go to college. It's a full four year scholarship, and then you just go in the Navy for four years to pay back the scholarship.
- [21:03]
A
I'm like, seems like a good deal.
- [21:04]
B
Checking a lot of boxes right there. And as I gestured towards the poster, and you can be a Navy SEAL through this program. And he's like, oh, yeah, absolutely. Just straight up sold by the recruiter. Because a little detail that he left out was that they only take 16 guys a year from all the ROTC units across the whole country to go to Buds. So in those days, basically, they took like about 32 officers a year to go to Buds to Naval Special Warfare. 16 from the Naval Academy, 16 from the ROTC units. Roughly in the Naval Academy, they picked their 16 from their pool of Naval Academy candidates. And the 16 from the ROTC bucket got picked. However that got picked and done. Okay, that's crazy. And so I didn't find that out until my junior year. And then now every summer when you're in an ROTC you go away on this thing they call a midshipman summer. When you're in rotc, you're a midshipman. Yeah, Whatever that means. But that's what you are. You're a midshipman. So you go away on a midshipman summer cruise. Now, the summer before your senior year, if you want to go into Naval Special Warfare, you can go to this thing, which at the time they called it minibuds. Today, I believe they call it soaz, which is. Which I believe in today's language, they call it SEAL Officer Assessment and Selection. It's basically like a tryout. I believe There were about 100 guys there, spread across two classes. It's a pre. Look for them to look at this. So here. This is wild. So here's what happened. So they were there, and they call us all in this room, and they proceed to explain to us. They're like, hey, so we're gonna do things a little bit differently this year.
- [22:59]
A
Is this at ROTC or Mini bugs?
- [23:01]
B
So this is at mini buds. Summer before my senior year. Yep.
- [23:04]
C
Yeah.
- [23:04]
B
Yeah. So I mean. I mean, I'm. I'm, you know, I'm in ROTC at this point. Like, I owe money back if I don'. Complete this program. Right. Which is how that works. And I'm only in it because I want to be a seal. So, like, if I don't get BUDS coming out of college, I'm like, why am I in the Navy? Like, I have no. Sorry. I have no desire to be in the Navy.
- [23:24]
A
Yep.
- [23:25]
B
Personally, that's just what I. Right. I want to be a seal, and the seals happen to be in the Navy. That's. That's why I'm in Navy rotc. So they. So go to mini buds. It's at. It's in Coronado at buds, and they call someone in the room, hey, we're doing things a little bit differently this year. And they say, so we rank you guys on everything. We measure how fast you do this, who's the fastest runner, who's the fastest swimmer, your performance, your attitude, all these things. And for the last couple years, we've been doing these detailed notes ranking every single mini buds candidate, like 1 to 100. And they proceed to say that, well, this is a lot of work for us. And, you know, there are guys who suck who we do not want back at this program, we have evaluated saying, this guy does not have what it takes. We don't want this guy in our community. They rank those guys, you know, 90 to 100. Right. And like, those are the bottom of it, right? And all of a sudden, again, this is just what they told us. Like, a couple of those guys next year are showing back up at buds. So the guys. So the BUDS instructors and, you know, the commanding officer and the XO of NASA Special Warfare center are like, what's that guy doing back here? Like, he was 99 out of 100. In other words, we don't want that guy. Why is he getting one of the 16 slots? Right? And apparently the detailer in Millington says, oh, yeah, we don't look at your rankings. And at the time, it was Captain Smethers. I. How I remember this, he was the commanding officer at the time. He goes, what do you mean, you don't look at my rankings? I'm the guy who decides who becomes a SEAL and who doesn't.
- [25:04]
A
Yeah.
- [25:05]
B
And they're like. He goes, if you're not going to take my input and the effort and the work that we do, I'm just not going to run your mini BUDS program anymore.
- [25:13]
A
Oh, my gosh.
- [25:14]
B
And so they're like, well, okay, well, how about this? How about you tell us the top guys you want and you can tell us, you know, five or ten, you know, black balls, if you will. Like, guys, you're like, hey, do not send this, and we'll honor your top couple and your bottom exclusions. And then the rest is up to us. And they're like. And they're like, deal. Okay, this is just paraphrasing. They explained all this, this at the beginning of Many buds. So we go through many buds. And you gotta understand, for me, this is what I say, like, okay, so one of my favorite movies growing up is the movie Rudy. All right? It's one of my favorite movies, probably because he's small and I'm small. And it's, you know, it's a. It's, you know, that hero's journey. You know, it's the underdog. I love an underdog story. I felt like. I feel like I an underdog my whole life. So I love the movie. And when Rudy shows up to Notre Dame, he's like, I'm finally here. I'm finally in the land of giants, right? And that's how I felt when I stepped onto the base in Coronado. I was like. I mean, I kind of get emotional even just thinking about it. The reverence. I had wanted this for so long. I felt honored. I was like, I may never be here again. This could be my only chance. And I worked so hard and I did. I just was like, I may never have the opportunity to come back to this place again. This may be the only time I get to come to this place. And I worked my tail off. So we get to the end of Mini Buds and our class proctor comes in and he called like 12 of us out of the room. I'll never Forget his name. EN1 Hensley. Never saw him again in my life. Big dude. That's how I remember him. Massive thighs, like tree trunks. So anyway, he calls like 12 of us out to the. I think at the time it was called the PTRR office. And we line up and two by two were going into his office and me and this other guy. And I'm gonna leave his name out of it because he's still on active duty. But I mean, his public kind of figure in there. Yeah, leave it out. Yeah. I'm just saying he's. He's high ranking at WARCOM right now. Good friend of mine. And by the way, was featured his. He is featured in this latest movie Warfare. He was at Seal Team 5. He's the officer who. Who stepped up when they got kind of waylaid in there and hit with those IEDs and RPGs. So great combat leader. A good friend of mine who I have known since Mini Buds.
- [27:56]
A
That's crazy, dude.
- [27:57]
B
So we get down. So two by two guys are going in, me and this other guy, call them cw where we're the last two and we go in and Hensley's sitting there like in his chair. He's like leaning back. He's got a big old dip in his lip.
- [28:14]
A
You know, they always either dipped, was it Kodiak, or they had a big thing of red men chewing.
- [28:21]
B
He had something as he's spitting into his cup, you know, and he's like, paul W. Yes. You two better pull your heads out of your asses if you think you're ever coming back here.
- [28:38]
A
It.
- [28:38]
B
Dude, my heart sunk, dude.
- [28:39]
A
Oh, my gosh.
- [28:42]
B
He goes, just kidding. He goes, you2 guys did a great job. You two guys are going to get a letter of recommendation from the commanding officer to come back to Buds, dude.
- [28:55]
A
Let's go.
- [28:56]
B
So that was it. That was it. That's how I got one of those 16 slots, man. I got the golden ticket. And, you know, all I wanted was a chance. That's all I wanted. You know, what if I go and I don't have what it takes if I didn't make it, I mean, I may not like it, but just give me a chance. What I really didn't like about that whole thing was, wait a minute, like, I may not even get a chance to go. Like, that part rubbed me. So thank God I got that chance and then the rest was up to me.
- [29:24]
A
Yeah, but you, yeah, you earned it, man. Like, you earned it. There's so many things that we could open up on. The fact that, you know, the detailer wasn't doing what Captain Smithers was recommending. And I mean, yeah, he ran buds like he was the commanding officer and. But good on him for stepping up and be like, no, no, like we're gonna make something work.
- [29:47]
B
So many stories like that in the teams, they're like, oh, really? Okay, well, I'm just not gonna run your program anymore. They're like, let's make a deal.
- [29:53]
A
Actually, hold on.
- [29:55]
B
Captain Smethers passed away somewhat recently too.
- [29:58]
A
Was it like a year? Ish.
- [29:59]
B
About a year and a half ago?
- [30:00]
C
Yeah.
- [30:01]
A
He's a good dude.
- [30:02]
B
Yep.
- [30:03]
A
I remember him talking to. I don't know if he gave this speech. Oh, no, it was in our SQT class because he pinned our tridents on his chest. And do you remember him talking about, like, hey, I heard rumors that when new guys are checking his SEAL teams, they're taking their tridents off and they're putting them in a bird cage or they're spray painting them blue so that they're inert and they have to earn it. He goes, if any of that happens, you guys call me because I'm not going to have anybody in SEAL teams tell me that you guys don't earn your tridents. When I put it on your chest, I'm phrasing it like his speech. I just remember that.
- [30:35]
B
And I'm just like, wow, that's exactly right. So what there was. Because what happened was there was a transition time. What happened was just before that time period, the way it worked in the teams is you would go to buds, you would leave, you'd go to your SEAL team and then you went through stt. It was called SEAL Tactical training. And until that time you didn't have your trident yet. And once you graduated stt, you then got your trident. I believe once you were at the team.
- [31:05]
A
Yes.
- [31:06]
B
Right. And so then they cut that over and they say, hey, we're going to take, we're going to put the whole pipeline together. Buds then sqt. Upon completion of sqt, you now get your trident and then you go to a team.
- [31:17]
A
And I think the reason why they did that was for. Which is a great application of business. Is there Wasn't continuity at the level that it should be between all the different teams because SEAL Team one ran their STT different than SEAL Team two did. SEAL Team three, SEAL Team four.
- [31:33]
B
Yeah.
- [31:34]
A
And which is fine because it's like, all right, hey, our teams run it this way because back in the day those teams would deploy to different regions.
- [31:42]
B
That's right.
- [31:43]
A
Once 911 happened in Force 21, it.
- [31:46]
B
Was first called NSW 21.
- [31:47]
A
Yes, that came out. And they're like, no, we need to be able to deploy anywhere at any time. And so that's when they started unifying the training. And I think, I believe that's why SKT was created by very well made uniform. Yeah, man. I, you know, Jocko talks about sat on his podcast often and you know, you'd hear stories from older team guys. I mean it was, yeah, very, very intense. So I understand why some of those old guys might have felt that way.
- [32:13]
C
Right.
- [32:14]
A
However, comma, I also understood what Captain Smith.
- [32:17]
B
Totally. Yeah, that and, but you're, you're zeroing, right? That's exactly right, though. It was like those guys were like, wait a minute. It kind of got taken away from them to determine when they got the trident and now it was Captain Smithers and he's like, hey, I'm the one who decides who's a seal. Yeah, yeah.
- [32:31]
A
That's probably why we had very. We'll just use the word intense and passionate older guys on how they treated and welcomed the new guys.
- [32:39]
B
Yeah. And make sure you earned it, which I'm all about.
- [32:43]
A
Okay, so is there any story. Stories from SQT that just stand out that you know, make you smile or.
- [32:50]
B
Laugh or chuckle about you?
- [32:52]
A
Uh oh, we can edit these out.
- [32:54]
C
No, we will not.
- [32:57]
A
I remember about SQT in general, but whatever.
- [33:00]
B
You know what I. But actually some of the ones I remember that are great are like. I remember you doing. I don't know what this move is called.
- [33:08]
A
I already know.
- [33:09]
B
Standing. Yeah, I was gonna say this iron cross, but I thought it was full on road bike riding. My standing up on. Standing on the seat, arms out like this, rolling down the street at, down at the. I guess now they call it the stick, but I remember that. And I believe you did it over the Coronado Bridge as well.
- [33:29]
A
Yeah, I did the whole. Once I hit the apex of the bridge, shifted one more time so RPMs wouldn't be high. Jumped up on the seat, did the crucifix and you know, as a bridge goes down it turns and so I was leaning on the bike and went all the way across the bridge. And, yeah, when I got off my bike, I had a few missed calls from our lpo. Leave his name out, even though he's out.
- [33:54]
B
Yeah, Double D. Yeah, yeah.
- [33:56]
A
And also from Seth.
- [33:58]
B
Yeah.
- [33:58]
A
And I can't remember who else, but I had a few phone calls, missed calls. I called them back, and I remember Seth and then also Double D. Double D was very intense guy. I love him, like, love him. But he was just like, hey, man, I don't want to have to call your mom and tell her that you died because you're acting like a jack wagon on your street bike, like. And, you know, we talked through some other stuff, but I just remember that conversation. But, yeah, I mean, I was wild, man. I was 19 years old, going through buds, and you guys had to rein me back all the time.
- [34:37]
B
It's such a balance. So I was talking to somebody. There's so many things I could say about this. But, like, I remember talking to somebody and they were asking me, like, hey, what? You know, what's it like to lead in a SEAL platoon? Right. So here I'm a junior officer, and I've got guys like JP who are physical specimens full of testosterone, will ride their motorcycle and standing on the seat across the Coronado Bridge. All of the things that make someone like J.P. ultimately, and eventually, we wouldn't know it at the moment, but eventually, the great combat operator that JP was, are also the very things that make someone like that hard to lead in Garrison.
- [35:27]
A
Yeah.
- [35:28]
B
And so it's such a tough balance because the guys who are going to take the fight to the enemy, the guys who are going to push through the most difficult, most challenging when you go through. And we can get into Ramadi at some point if you want, but, you know, when you talk about going into the heart of darkness almost daily, firefights, guys who are being injured and killed, and not just our guys, but the soldiers and the Marines that we were working with, to be able to get up and go back outside the wire and to keep going and to keep pressing against a determined enemy also is a very difficult person to lead when not in that environment. But that's what makes him. But that is those are the very things that make you good at that job. So how do you. You know, how do you lead somebody like that? And sometimes it's just like, you can't suppress some of that. You can't suppress that too hard because those are the very qualities that you need. And you just gotta also make sure you keep them out of trouble.
- [36:30]
A
Yeah, yeah, it's.
- [36:31]
B
It's tough. It's tough.
- [36:33]
A
And, you know, and that comes with just lack of maturity. Again, I'm 19 years old, but I also had really good leaders like yourself, Leif, Seth, Double D, and a bunch of other guys that would rein me back and would have actual conversations with me. Now, there's times you guys had to get on me, but it always came with an explanation as to, hey, man, you can't be doing this, or, hey, you need to be doing these things. There was never a we're going to chew you out for no reason. There was always there. But you see that a lot in the military, and you also see it in businesses.
- [37:04]
B
Yeah.
- [37:05]
A
You know, like, I got to hold my people accountable. And they think that's just like yelling at their people, putting them in check, and that's not good leadership. But, yeah, it's. It's. It's difficult, you know, And I look back and I think, like, man, I just. While I had a lot of fun and I'm thankful for everything that I was able to do and the opportunities I had, I look back and I'm like, man, I was just so wild and immature, and I wish. I wish I could go back to that age and be like, hey, man, be a little more humble. Like, it.
- [37:35]
B
It's such a weird thing, though, because, like, you can't do that.
- [37:39]
A
Yeah.
- [37:40]
B
And if you had been any less of what you were, you wouldn't have been as good in combat as you were. That's what I'm telling you. That's the. That's the. That is the, like, I gotta hate use this word here, but, like, that's the dichotomy of this. Like, it's the very qualities that made you somewhat difficult in Garrison. And I don't mean that in a negative way. I just mean, you know, like, oh, God, is he gonna, like, hurt himself? Is he gonna, you know, this, that or whatever, like, are the very qualities that made you so effective on the battlefield. And if somebody was passive, if somebody was, you know, just not as aggressive, they wouldn't have been effective in combat with us. You know, I mean, I. I mean, I distinctly remember. I have. It's weird what you remember, what you don't. But, like, I distinctly remember being on patrol in the mob with you, me, Seth, and whoever else was on this particular patrol, but this particular one Seth and I were on, and you were on point and you had your sniper rifle, and I just remember seeing you, like, just boldly walking through this street and Somebody had. There was some movement in this window and Seth was like, warning shot into that. And I mean, just immediately I was like, oh, dude, I'm So glad freaking JP's on point right now. I mean, it's just like.
- [38:59]
A
Those are.
- [39:00]
B
The very same qualities that made you good at what you did in combat. And I was glad to have you there.
- [39:03]
A
That's when we were leaving target. Right.
- [39:06]
B
I can't remember specifically.
- [39:08]
A
There's a lot of. Lot of cool.
- [39:10]
B
There were a lot. There were a lot. Yeah.
- [39:12]
A
So sqt. And then you had a pretty cool path that was different than most SEAL officers.
- [39:22]
B
Oh, yeah, yeah.
- [39:23]
A
So after sqt, where do you go and what was your biggest, like, takeaway from being in that. That moment, that opportunity?
- [39:34]
B
So after sqt, Leif went to a different team. Me, Seth and I went to Seal Team 3. Now, in those days. In those days, golly. In those days. And as has typically been the case, we have. So typically in a SEAL platoon, there are. The structure is 16 guys on a platoon that breaks into two eight man squads. You've got an officer and an enlisted leader in each squad. And typically. So that means you've got two officers in the platoon, the officer in charge and the assistant officer in charge. Then you have a platoon chief and a platoon lead petty officer. Typically, as you break the two squads, you've got the officer in charge with the lpo, and then you've got the platoon chief who's going to be the most experienced enlisted guy with the junior officer, the aoic, and those two. That's how you break up the. The two squads. Typically. Now what started to happen was we started to have more officers than two per platoon. So, like, if there was five platoons at a SEAL team, you would. You could do the math on that. You need 10 officers. Well, we got 15 officers. So what do you do with the other five officers? We would just start putting them into platoons, and they just started being called the third officer in a platoon. There isn't a specific role for that third officer. So. So that third officer just kind of filled into the platoon and did the role of another enlisted guy, by the way. Great deal, great deal. Because now as an officer, you're not the ayc, you're not the oic, you're just a guy in the platoon getting to do what seals do, waiting for your chance to rank up, you know, the next cycle you would be the aoic, and then presumably the next cycle, the OIC in that or another platoon. So for a while, we had these third officers. And that's what was going on as we were graduating sqt. Right, as we graduated sqt. I don't know who it was. I don't. Whoever the admiral was at the time and I really don't remember who it was because I was so junior. How do I know who the dagom admiral was? As time went on, I learned who the admirals were and who our senior leaders. But I just remember whoever was in charge at that time said no more third officers in a platoon. This isn't good for our officer development. They're not actually developing themselves professionally. So we're not going to have a third O in a platoon anymore. Just as I turned up at Seal Team 3.
- [42:12]
A
Knowing what you know now, do you agree with that statement?
- [42:15]
B
I do not.
- [42:15]
A
Okay, I didn't think so, but we can.
- [42:17]
B
I don't. That's just me. But what do I know? I mean it's just, you know.
- [42:20]
A
But that's why I said knowing what you know now. What I know now, Junior officer.
- [42:23]
B
I mean, if you ask me my opinion, I think the third officer role is fine. You are learning. You're working alongside the other enlisted guys on the platoon. You're getting a much closer look at the day to day jobs that they're doing. I think that actually sets you up to then be an AIC or an oic. I don't have a problem with that. I really don't now. Especially if you have a surplus of officers. If you don't, then just go be an AIC and learn that way. But, but all of a sudden no more third OS that came down from the top. Just as I checked into Seal Team 3. Now Seth had been prior he was an officer and had been as a surface warfare officer. So out of the Naval Academy, he did not get one of those 16 slots. He first went to the Naval Surface Fleet and then got a lateral transfer over to Naval Special Warfare. So he went through BUDS as a lieutenant. JG and I went through BUDS as an Ensign. It's the lowest rank, officer rank. And then just as we graduated sqt, he puts on lieutenant. So Steph now is a full lieutenant as a brand new guy with zero experience at a SEAL team. So the way this went down was, is hey, you Lieutenant need to be in AYC right now before you rank out. And all of a sudden you're too high in rank to be even in a darn platoon. So Seth got priority, as did other guys like him. And rightfully so. I understand that.
- [43:52]
A
So that's why Leif went to Team five, because it's the same thing for him.
- [43:55]
B
That's right. Leif was a full lieutenant going through buds. So he was even senior.
- [44:02]
A
Yeah, he was one year senior to Seth.
- [44:06]
B
Yes. So those guys, they had to get right into an AOIC position, so they got priority on the aoic. So guys like me, ensigns right out of sqt, maybe I just put JG on, I don't remember. They're like, we have no role for you. So what role does a junior officer not in a SEAL platoon have to do some whatever stupid administrative paperwork they can come up with, which is not at all what I signed on to do to be a seal, right. Like, I mean, I'm gonna go be a Navy seal, not like push paperwork. Now there is officer development and learning the that side of that, I get that. But that, that's the last thing, you know a 21 year old, newly minted trident wearing frogman wants to do. Right? So, so There was like five or six of us at SEAL Team 3 who were in this role. There was no so. So what. What we would end up doing if we had stayed in that role would be eventually when that SEAL team turned into a task group and deployed, we would just be at some administrative support role in a tactical operations center doing absolutely nothing tactical. Okay, so that sounds miserable. Yeah, absolutely it's miserable. It's like a trident wearing administrator. Like, are you kidding me? Plenty of time to do that when you're old. So. So, yeah, so it totally sucks. You know, I mean, so that's just what was happening at the time. So somebody says, well, hey, we have this other thing you could potentially do, which is we need, we want SEAL officers to run the Special Boat Team units. Because when we deploy, the boat team then falls under the task group and, and is an asset of the SEAL Task group. So what happens is the SEAL commanding officer, the SEAL team commanding officer, becomes a task group commander and he then has all these other assets at his disposal, including the special Boat unit that gets assigned under him. And if the SEAL platoon is getting ready to do a maritime interdiction operation, what they would prefer or what they would like to have is a SEAL running that boat support unit knows the tactics, knows the operation. So that, that's kind of, that was the mindset at the time. So I was like, well, hey, I'll do, I'll do a boat team officer in charge. Yeah, I would rather do that than write up paperwork, you know, so that's what I Did. So for my first deployment, I didn't even. I was still assigned to Seal Team 3. I was still PCs to Seal Team 3, but working at the Special Boat Team Unit. And I was the officer in charge of a Special Boat Team Unit. We then deployed on the same cycle as Seal Team 3 and ultimately ended up doing several operations and ship takedowns. And I would get seals on board. So that's what I did. And so I came back from that first deployment having done numerous maritime and leadership interdiction operations in the Northern Arabian Gulf. It's very interesting. I don't. I don't like to necessarily say this. I remember Seth, man. He came back from that first deployment very frustrated because he. Right about that time, we got the PSD mission. And so Seth being the AOSE of the platoon, dude, they stuck him in the Tactical Operations Center. He was having to do all this paperwork stuff. And we came back from that deployment and then came together in Delta Platoon at Team three. And he was like, bro, you had a far better deployment than I did because I was actually getting. Getting to go out. I wasn't in a SEAL platoon, but I was doing operation. Actual operational operations.
- [47:56]
A
Dude, that's rad.
- [47:57]
B
It was cool. I mean, obviously within the SEAL teams, you look at that and you're like, well, it wasn't a SEAL platoon, but it was still.
- [48:06]
A
Real world operations when guys weren't. Yeah, I mean, I guess you could call PSD an operation, but it wasn't. It wasn't SEAL operation.
- [48:16]
B
Right.
- [48:17]
A
We're not doing capture kill missions. We're not doing any of those things that we all wanted to do and trained to do.
- [48:23]
B
Yeah.
- [48:24]
A
Okay, so you come back from that deployment and then.
- [48:27]
B
Yeah, I remember I was. I came back. I was still. I was over at the Special Boat Team working on my orders to get cut over back, you know, blah, blah, blah. And. And I started catching up with Leif and Seth, and we got word Leif was coming over, and we're like, oh, we're gonna put this band back together. And it's exactly what it was. We were like. And we were like. We were totally like. What's the word I'm looking for here?
- [48:50]
C
Scheming.
- [48:51]
A
Scheming.
- [48:52]
B
We were totally scheming for who was gonna be in what platoon. And we were like, got these backdoor channel deal conversations happening, and we totally put it together, and we all get in Task Unit Bruiser together.
- [49:07]
A
That's awesome.
- [49:07]
B
Yeah. I mean. And you know, you're there and I mean, Hasbi.
- [49:12]
A
Yep.
- [49:13]
B
Was There. Ray Baviera.
- [49:16]
A
Yep.
- [49:18]
B
I'm trying to think of who. Who. Oh, Cowie.
- [49:20]
A
Yeah, Cow.
- [49:22]
B
Cowie and I were in Cowie and I. Cowie was, like, in the Smurf crew with me and Buds, dude. So now we got. Now we got. You know, we had all these guys from. From buds, from sqt. We got this. We totally put the band back together.
- [49:38]
A
That's so cool. What was your first. When you found out Jocko's gonna be our task unit commander? Did you know about him? No idea. What. What were you told as. Because you're now the AOIC in Delta Platoon.
- [49:50]
B
Right.
- [49:51]
A
Which is funny because we ended up with a third O towards the end that deployed with us.
- [49:56]
B
Totally. Yeah.
- [49:57]
A
It's so funny how that went back to cycle. But you're our aoic, so you're. The number is number one. You're number two, and then our platoon chief, and then lpo, and then we hear about Jocko as our task unit commander.
- [50:08]
B
Right.
- [50:08]
A
What was, like. What was being told to you? To you, Seth, Leif, and.
- [50:14]
B
Oh, just that, you know, here comes this, like, no nonsense, like, jiu jitsu black belt, you know, at first we were, like. We were kind of nervous. Like, scared, you know, not scared, but, like, oh, boy. Like, this is gonna be. Yeah, this is gonna be a tough workup. And then he ended up being super cool.
- [50:36]
A
Yeah.
- [50:37]
B
Jocko was hard but fair.
- [50:39]
A
And that's how every great leader should be.
- [50:41]
B
Yeah.
- [50:41]
A
Like. And that's how you take care of your people.
- [50:43]
B
Totally.
- [50:43]
A
Is. By setting very high standards, communicating, building relationships, giving ownership. And, like, that's what he did with us right away. And our first trip together as a task unit was out at land warfare. Correct.
- [50:58]
B
I'm trying to remember the order of things. I think we did do.
- [51:00]
A
It was land warfare and then mobility right afterwards.
- [51:03]
B
It was land warfare because, oh, my gosh, dude, we go out to land warfare. Do you remember this? The instructor's like, hey, we're gonna have you guys do, like, a shakeout patrol.
- [51:15]
A
I believe, so where you're going with this?
- [51:18]
B
And these mother effers dropped us 14 and a half clicks away from base, middle of the night. And everybody's like. Like, they, like. Everybody thought, oh, you mean, like, we're just gonna, like, go walk out here real quick and just sort of, like, make sure that, you know.
- [51:35]
A
Yeah.
- [51:35]
B
Like, oh, no. Like, so nobody knew where we were. Most people didn't bring any water. I did, because I remember.
- [51:47]
A
I did, too.
- [51:48]
B
I was so glad. I mean, I ended up sharing with Many people as I could, but I had two. Like, two quart flasks.
- [51:56]
A
Yes. Yep.
- [51:58]
B
So glad I had that. But a bunch of people brought no water. And then they're like, all right, navigate back. And people like, we didn't even know where we were. I happened to bring my GPS with me. I'm such a dork. That's why. That's why. And I just happened to bring it.
- [52:12]
A
I remember trying to figure out where we're at because middle of the night, you're trying to, like, triangulate.
- [52:16]
B
Your guys are, like, trying to do a resection at night.
- [52:20]
A
Okay. That ridgeline. And, you know, we're just trying to figure it out. And it was just the instructors being the instructors and. Yeah, that was a gut check. Was that the one that we got back and we'll just use his nickname? I mean, he's out, but, you know, out of respect for him, Dougie Fresh. That he lost his mind on us because.
- [52:40]
B
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
- [52:42]
A
That was that one. Right? Because.
- [52:43]
B
Yes.
- [52:43]
A
So we do this long patrol back. Everyone's dehydrated, exhausted.
- [52:48]
C
Is this both platoons?
- [52:50]
B
Is this the whole task unit?
- [52:51]
C
Okay, so does Jocko tell this story at muster? A little bit with this one where Leif doesn't have any water and he's trying to get water from Jocko.
- [52:59]
B
Oh, I don't. I don't.
- [53:01]
A
I don't. He shared that a long time ago.
- [53:02]
C
I don't know, because he mentioned this at, like, muster 20, that there was this time where, like, Leif was trying to get water from him, and Jaco's like, no, you're not having any of my water.
- [53:10]
B
I honestly don't know.
- [53:12]
A
This probably was because after that, the.
- [53:15]
C
Scenario is similar to what after that time.
- [53:17]
A
I know none of us went. There wasn't.
- [53:20]
B
We never got caught without stuff again.
- [53:22]
A
That did not go out with their full loadout.
- [53:24]
B
Totally.
- [53:24]
A
And it was a good lesson. Yeah, it sucked at the time, but those are some of the best lessons. But I just remember we get back from it, and my LPO at the time, not Benny, when he got put in that position on deployment, but our. Our LP was losing his mind on us, rightfully because of how loud we were and all this stuff. He's like, jumping up and down with the gear and gr. Grabbing people's gear, and he's like, it's so. So I remember we had to, like, fix our gear and we went back out, dude.
- [53:50]
B
Okay, so speaking of our lpo, speaking of our lpo, I got a funny story about this so. So I. So I come over to Seal Team 3. I'm new guy in Delta Platoon, right? And so I. I go up into the Delta Platoon space. So it's like this hallway, and each. Each door's got a combo code on it, and that's your Platoon space. And Delta has a space, and Charlie Platoon has a space, and they're right next to each other. They don't connect. But so I. I'm in there, I don't know, checking on the computer or some paperwork. I'm sure, you know, we had. No. We weren't all together yet. It was just, like, administrative. Like, I mean, we were forming up over the course of this, like, week or week or 10 days. Everybody's kind of getting assigned and coming in, and I go to walk out, and here comes our lpo. Don't know who he is. Don't know that he's the lpo. And as. And as I leave, I close the door behind me. And he's like, two steps, and he tries to get into the door, and he can't because I've closed the door on him because I don't know who he is. And he's, like, trying to get in, and he can't. He goes, hey. He goes, what's the combo? I go. And I was like, oh, I'm sorry, I can't give that to you. He goes, I'm the lpo. What's the combo? You can edit that part out. I was. And I was like, it's. And obviously you can edit the. Yeah, but I'm. That's what he said.
- [55:15]
A
Yeah.
- [55:15]
B
And I. Well, and I bought. I mean, and he screamed at me, and I gave him the code. He went in, and I walked down the hallway, and I go, great job, Andrew. Like, you just totally welcome to the platoon. You just effed the lpo.
- [55:30]
A
You know, I mean, he also, like, let's think about this. He also could have approached it different. Like, hey, I'm the lpo, Delta Platoon.
- [55:38]
B
I had no idea who he was.
- [55:39]
A
Like, nice to meet you. What are you doing in my space?
- [55:42]
B
That's not how it works.
- [55:42]
A
No, I know.
- [55:45]
B
He's a great dude. Great dude. It's just funny. Like, that's how I met our lpo. Yeah. I wouldn't let him into the Platoon space because I didn't know who he was. And I was just trying to be protective. Can you imagine if he was from another platoon? I had let him into the Delta Platoon space. That's what I was paranoid about, and rightfully so.
- [56:01]
A
And you did what you're supposed to. It is funny. Like, as you say, his response. Because I'm like, yep, that's him. That is the majority of my interactions with him on my second platoon. Really? Oh, yeah, yeah. I remember we were getting into it in the platoon space one time, and he was just like, you want to go over the berm? Because that was a saying in the team's like, hey, you want to fight? You go on the other side of the burn, you handle your business, and you're done. Like gentlemen. Like, hey, let's go do it. And I stood up. I'm like, yeah, let's go. He's like, oh, jp, I was just kidding with you. No, let's go, man. Like, I'm all fired up right now. And, yeah, I remember the guys. Man, being in a platoon is the best.
- [56:40]
B
So awesome. There's a few stories I don't think we should. I could probably tell, but. But I remember. I remember you choked me out pretty good out there in that land warfare trip.
- [56:51]
A
Why did I do that?
- [56:53]
B
Because it was time for the new guys to fight.
- [56:55]
A
Oh, okay. I was like, I wouldn't just randomly choke you out.
- [56:58]
B
No, no. So you're like, dude, you sold this so good. So you were like, all right, so now we're, like, in the chow hall area, and then across the hall, there's, like, the cadre, like, instructor, whatever, like, planning space. And you came out, you're like, hey, everybody, bring it in. Right? And so you're walking down the hall, and I start walking to it, and you. I mean, you sold it so good. You looked right past me like, hey, guys, let's go. Bring it in. And right as I got past you, you whipped right around, choked me out. And I. I woke up to people standing over me, slapping me, and shaving my head.
- [57:34]
A
I'm sorry.
- [57:35]
B
It's all good. It's all good. And then we proceeded to fight. That's what we do.
- [57:39]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Having the new guys fight each other. Actually, it's called training. We're having them train each other.
- [57:48]
B
Yeah, yeah. It's all. It's all part of the culture. It's all part. It's all positive and honestly. And honestly. So let me just, like, say that. The big, bad hazing word. It's not like that.
- [58:03]
A
No, not.
- [58:04]
B
It really isn't. My impression of it. My experience with it was these were sort of rites of passage that actually drew us closer together. It was never. I truly, in my own personal experience, it never, never reached a point of like, of abuse. And I think I just want to say this because I know that there are, like, sports teams out there. And, you know, hazing's such a bad word right now and has been for years. And I think truly hazing absolutely can be bad. However, there are things that you can do that draw people closer together to create adversity. The problem with this in general is that people's different. People's perspective on where the line is is different. Right. So that's what makes it hard.
- [58:56]
A
Yes, I agree. And the SEAL team's as wild as people might think we are, which we are, but we're also very professional. And there was always, like, a medic on standby there, somebody who was watching, observe. You know what I mean?
- [59:08]
B
Like, nobody ever abused. It was. It was truly, like. It was truly like. Like, when you got done, they, like, had their arm around you and you were like. You know what I mean? It was.
- [59:18]
A
You got done like an old guy that you were, like, terrified the whole time would put his arm around you, crack a beer open and be like, hey, good job.
- [59:25]
B
Right? Yep.
- [59:25]
A
And it just brought the guys closer together. And they also respect. Because there are some guys that didn't drink alcohol, and they'd be like, all right, cool. They wouldn't make them.
- [59:34]
B
Never once did I personally experience, like, forced drinks. He never once experienced that.
- [59:38]
A
Yeah. It was such a cool atmosphere.
- [59:41]
B
Yep.
- [59:41]
A
Yeah. So we do that workup, which was awesome. A lot of really good training, and, you know, we find out we're going to Ramadi, and so we head over to Ramadi and what. What was your first impression of when we got to Ramadi for, you know, just being the AOIC and realizing the severity of the environment we're in?
- [60:02]
B
Well, at first, I didn't know how much I was going to get to do.
- [60:07]
A
Okay.
- [60:08]
B
Right. Because again, being in the AYC role, a lot of times it's more support. And I was fully prepared to just simply support Seth and putting conops together and mission plans and things like that. I was stoked when we quickly ascertained that what we were going to do was break the task unit up basically into multiple four to six man elements and cover down on this larger battle space area. And for me personally, my stock went from mid level, like, who knows what's going to happen to. I was running stuff.
- [60:46]
A
Yeah.
- [60:46]
B
All of a sudden I would. I had. I had. With our lpo, Right. I had an entire area of the city of Ramadi. Let me clarify from our perspective.
- [61:00]
A
Yeah.
- [61:00]
B
Not like I did not have this part of the city of Ramadi that was owned by the.
- [61:05]
A
Yes, but what we were doing in our task unit in Delta Platoon. Yes, you were.
- [61:10]
B
I had these two areas. It was. At the time it was called Tamim and Five Kilo, and then Seth and a cohort of other guys from Delta, including you, cover down on a different area, and then quickly went out to Corregidor. And while you were doing that, I was running and leading my own operations with four other guys independently. And by the way, this is just like, things that you learn, Right. I actually think I could be wrong. I think I might have run the first operation. Of all of us when we got there. And it was simply.
- [61:49]
A
You went and got inserted, right?
- [61:51]
B
I did that, yes. We went. Well, we went down to this. This observed this big observation point that was manned by Iraqi soldiers and a couple of American soldiers, and me and our LPO put this operation together. We went down there. We got. We got inserted.
- [62:13]
A
I drove you down there. Yep, I remember.
- [62:16]
B
And then the only thing was, we didn't. This is, again, things you learn. We didn't actually have a really good exfil plan on that. And we, like, were not in really good comms, and just you learn, you know, And I. And I remember, like, all of a sudden, like, Jocko and a couple Humvees and probably a couple you guys, like, showed up, and you're like, hey, when were you coming back? I was like, oh, sorry, I didn't.
- [62:45]
A
Six months.
- [62:46]
B
Yeah. Like, when we win. We hadn't called. We were just, like, hanging out, doing patrols, like, from. From that op, and we kind of got. We didn't have, like, a return plan, like, filed and approved, and I kind of got in a little. Not in trouble. That's not the right word. Jocko was like, all right, next time we'll have a better plan.
- [63:05]
A
Yeah.
- [63:05]
B
And I was like, roger that. You know, but you guys, like, had to come get us.
- [63:08]
C
So how long were you guys out there?
- [63:10]
B
A couple days. Not. Not by our. Let me clarify.
- [63:13]
C
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [63:14]
B
There's other people by ourselves like, in the middle of the city for a couple of days. It was an established output combat outpost, essentially, with Iraqi soldiers on guard. Looking back, not so great.
- [63:26]
C
Right. I've seen them try to do jumping jacks on video before.
- [63:30]
B
Yeah. But it was a cool experience, you know, seeing what they were dealing with now. So that whole area. So then we did some other operations, kind of did some other cool stuff. I don't think I can even really Say about that. But then shortly after, we did some of those cool operations. That OP where I had been at for a couple days and went back there a couple of times very early in our deployment, I mean, like, two weeks later, got completely waylaid by a massive dumpster dump truck. Ied.
- [64:05]
A
Oh, wow.
- [64:05]
B
Massive. Flattened it, leveled it. And I think every single person was killed. Every single person.
- [64:12]
C
The vids.
- [64:14]
B
That was VB Yeah.
- [64:15]
A
Vehicle born id. But they did it in a dump truck.
- [64:18]
B
Yep. So a dump truck filled with explosives. Completely filled. Here's what's ironic. They had some video of it. I saw the video, and I know exactly where those freaking dump trucks were parked. They were parked like. Like a click outside that thing. And when we had been out on patrol, I remember seeing those. There are all kinds of things that went through my head, but you can't go and search every vehicle and whatever. But those were the dump trucks. It was this orange dump truck. I'll never forget. It killed everybody. So anyway. And then the other OP got waylaid, too. Yeah.
- [64:52]
A
But anyway, what was it like from your perspective, being in that leadership position, running operations, building relationships with soldiers and Marines and learning from them? I know Jocko talks about this all the time in his podcast. We talk about the muster. You know, those. You know, going back to what you said earlier, like, I feel bad saying the best because I know you, and I feel the same way. Like, those soldiers and Marines that we worked alongside of Ramadi were incredibly brave.
- [65:19]
B
They're amazing.
- [65:19]
A
They were unreal humans. We learned a lot from them. But you're in a leadership position in one of the most deadly combat areas at the time, running operations. Soldiers, Marines, and sailors are getting wounded all the time. Soldiers and Marines are getting killed. We hadn't lost anybody from tasking a bruiser yet. And, like, what were some of the things that you were processing from a leadership position? You know, realizing the burden that you were carrying?
- [65:50]
B
I got to a level of acceptance very quickly, and it just. I don't know how. Well, there's a couple things, I think, if I look back on it. So when we first. The first time I went outside the wire, we were driving down the road, and I remember thinking. I remember being very nervous about the IED threat because that. That had just ramped up significantly. And I remember, like. I remember catching myself tensing up, like, wincing, like, for an IED to go off. And about, like, a minute and a half later, I was like, what do you. What are you doing, dude? Like, if it's going to Go off. It's going to go off. There's nothing you can do about it. And I kind of let go. I just let go of it, and I. I don't know what to tell you then. The other thing I would say is that we were very well prepared. Now, I was not very well prepared to lose my friends. That's something I don't think you can ever really prepare for. No, But I remember the first fire. The first firefight that I was in. This is gonna sound crazy. I was like. It was like, no big deal.
- [66:52]
A
Yeah. Oh, yeah, Same.
- [66:53]
B
I mean, there were rounds snapping right over our heads and in the wall, and I got down, and we just. We maneuvered and we took a building and it. And then it was over. And I was like, okay, that was my first firefight. It was like, no big deal. I wasn't scared. I wasn't nervous. We just did what we had been trained to do. And you hear Leif and Jocko talk about this all the time. It is, train, train, train, drill, drill, drill. And we did so much of that. By the time the real thing happened, it wasn't a surprise. We just responded pretty instinctually because we had our SOPs down. Now, of course, there were chaotic things that happened at different parts of that deployment, but I got to a level of acceptance very quickly, and, yeah, I mean, it kind of wasn't a big deal.
- [67:51]
A
Yeah, I mean, so August 2, 2006 was, you know, the day that Mark Lee was killed. Where were you at in regards to operations and what you. What you guys are doing?
- [68:08]
B
I was at Shark Base, and those guys had gone out, and I had just come into the talk, and we're like, hey, we just lost somebody. I was like, you know who? So, I mean, I was there, and we brought his body back.
- [68:25]
A
Yeah.
- [68:26]
B
And we're washing off his clothes and stuff like that. So that was kind of. It was pretty quiet. We didn't say much.
- [68:33]
A
You were with the guys that had to wash off his clothes and gear.
- [68:36]
B
Yeah. When I came out of the talk, his. His gear was sitting there next to, like, that little chow hall thing. We had. Had just been washed off.
- [68:46]
A
Yeah. That was obviously a very hard day for our task unit, for everybody involved. You were in a leadership position, and you were very close with Leif and Seth. When you saw how it impacted Leif, what were some of the things that you were just trying to process? And I know that's kind of not a fair question for me to ask you.
- [69:21]
B
Those are the things that you can't Prepare for. Because, like, that's real pain. And I. I mean, we all. But especially I can't. I don't want to speak for Leif, but, I mean, he. You know, he. He felt. He felt terrible. I mean, he felt so low. He. Like he had failed. And I mean, I don't. I mean, again, I don't want to speak for. But that's the impression, you know, like, he. He felt personally responsible, which is.
- [70:03]
A
I mean, he shared that from the muster and on podcast as the officer in charge, when you lose a guy.
- [70:08]
B
Yeah.
- [70:08]
A
You know, he felt that. And, you know, Leif has said. And I saw that, and Leif has said. I mean, countless times. He would have done anything to, like, take that back and to switch spots.
- [70:21]
B
Yeah, it was. It was also so. So, guys, we had already had a few guys wounded. The most significant, I suppose, at that point would have been Cowie. And. But losing Mark was a real punch in the gut because I think for me, There was a sense of invincibility that was gone. I'm trying to think of how to describe it. I didn't feel invincible, but pretty confident.
- [71:02]
A
Yeah, we all felt that way.
- [71:04]
B
And that brought me real face to face with our own mortality. Even Cowie getting wounded and other guys being wounded was kind of part of it. Like, I was like, yeah, fine, it's a flesh wound. Like, let's go. When Mark was killed, it was like, whoa, hold on. That. It just kind of brought everything into a tighter focus and had to pause. Man, that was tough. But I also remember some frustrations right around that time, too, because that was not just. That was also the first Navy SEAL killed in Iraq. And all of a sudden, I don't know why I remember this more. I remember. I'm not going to name him. He's since apologized. But, you know, there were Monday morning quarterbacks. Yeah, you know. You know, what are those guys doing, you know, out there in the daytime? What are, you know, what are those guys doing, you know, with conventional forces just, you know, Monday morning quarterbacking a situation that they didn't understand, you know, and the reality of the situation is, is that the mission that we were tasked with. This is a fact. The mission we were tasked with was training Iraqi army scouts. That's the unit that we were paired with to go out and to operate. Now, if you don't know a scout is a conventional force, that is an element of the headquarters of a headquarters unit. They go out, they collect, observe, and relay information back to headquarters so that they can then Feed that information or drive the operations, how they're going to do it. So every time the conventional units were getting ready to do an operation in partnership with the Iraqi army that they were in partnership with, they would say, well, we need our scouts to go out. So we were in fact assigned to training, equipping, and in supporting a conventional unit that conducted conventional operations. That's who we were tasked with. So if you didn't. If you wonder why we weren't solely doing what you might think as special operations, it's because we were tasked with training and supporting a conventional unit. Those conventional units conduct operations in the daytime. They do presence patrols and daytime patrols. So what are we going to do? Say, oh, sorry, like we're not going to help you. Those guys would have gotten killed, squashed in an instant without our support. So that was just a misunderstanding from some people from the outside. And so unfortunately, that type of thing started to get out into the news, and now, can you imagine. So this is where our anger at the time was. You've got Mama Lee, who's just lost her son, and she sees some commander on the news offering his opinion about what are seals doing out in the daytime, you know, and you're like, okay, dude, you have no idea what you're talking about. You've never even been to combat. Shut your freaking mouth. You know, so again, that guy, I'm not gonna mention him by name. I don't need. No need. But, you know, he's since apologized and. But it was a bad look and very frustrating for us to be judged that way when. By people who had no idea what was actually happening in that city, let alone what our actual mission tasking was. So.
- [74:49]
A
You know, we stood down for a few days after that, and then we got back to work, which is what you are supposed to do and you need to do. It's very hard to do, but it's what you have to do. And, you know, just continue going out there, conducting operations, clearances over watches, firefights, doing incredible things, and then you end up going home a little early because.
- [75:13]
B
Yep, my son Gunner was born and. And that had kind of been the plan. You know, we. We. You know, and it was kind of towards the end of the deployment, so that was about. About mid September. I. I mean, I didn't make it home for his birth. He kid's always in a hurry. He was apparently in a hurry to show up on this planet, too. So as it turns out, I mean, we kind of knew his rough due date. And I started to had, you know, started to go, and he was born. I didn't make it back in time, but I got there shortly after he was born, so around mid September.
- [75:51]
A
That's awesome.
- [75:52]
B
Yeah.
- [75:52]
A
So were you able to do that for your first son?
- [75:55]
B
No, I wasn't there for Tristan either.
- [75:57]
A
Okay.
- [75:57]
B
Yeah.
- [75:59]
A
So you're home.
- [76:00]
B
It's wild, you know, like, I think about. Yes. So I was. So my first deployment, I was deployed for Thanksgiving.
- [76:08]
A
Yep.
- [76:09]
B
Christmas, son being born, wasn't there for any of that. And then came home from that deployment, started that workup quickly, got my wife pregnant again and left for another deployment, and then was gone for. For that birth as well. And it's wild. I was just talking to this about. Talking about this with my wife. Tristan, who's deployed, he. He's on his first appointment. He's. He will. He will miss Halloween. No big deal. Thanksgiving, Christmas, and he'll turn 21, all on his first deployment. And that's, you know, listen, that's. That's very common, you know, I mean, but. But it's just a reminder of, like, here are these young men and women deployed and what they miss, you know, and that's why it's called service, you know?
- [77:03]
A
September 29, 2006, Mikey is killed. Jumped on a grenade, and you're at home because of the birth of your son. And it turned out to be an absolute blessing.
- [77:18]
B
That's the end of the story. But it didn't quite feel that way at first.
- [77:22]
A
Yep.
- [77:23]
B
So I remember. I was. I remember exactly where I was. I got a call in the middle of the night. It was about. Somewhere 11 midnight, 12:30am Something like that. I got a call. I was, at this point, I'm the duty officer for SEAL Team 3. And by the way, a couple other guys are already coming home too. I mean, it's the end of our deployment. Right. So guys are cycling back. We got new people coming to the SEAL team, getting ready to be in the next workup. So there's things starting to happen at the SEAL team back home. So I'm actually now the senior guy at Seal Team 3 home, we might call the beach. Debt.
- [78:02]
A
Yeah.
- [78:04]
B
So anything that happens at that command, I'm actually in charge of now. It's not saying much, to be honest with you, but just administrative. But yeah, I mean, I got guys that are checking in. I'm responsible. I'm. I'm coordinating with Group one and things like that as guys are coming over. There's a senior enlisted master chief there too, so it's not like by myself upgrading this. That's not what I mean to imply, but yeah, I mean, I'm the senior guy there with that stuff. And so I get the call in the middle of the night, and they're like, hey, we need you to come into the Mission Support Center. And I knew. I didn't know, but I knew because I had been at the. I had been at Seal Team 3 in Coronado. I was on the Zipper computer, and we used to have this secure chat program. I probably don't even use that same program anymore. And I was messaging with Seth and he goes, hey, we're getting ready to go out. So I knew you. I knew the guys were out on this operation. And in fact, it's weird, I don't even want to say what I said, but I just. I remember saying something like, you know, get some for me or something like that. You know, something just.
- [79:14]
A
Yeah, a common thing that you would say to your buddies that are overseas.
- [79:16]
B
And I remember signing off, so I. I knew our guys were out on an operation. I didn't know where or what exactly, right. But I knew they were out. And I get this call. They're like, hey, need you come into the admission Support Center? I'm like. I was like. Immediately I was like, what's going on? Like, we can't say. You need to come in, but there's been a casualty. That's all they said. So I got in the car, I drove. I remember driving. Why I did this, I don't know. I remember driving like 80, 90 miles an hour. I remember blowing red lights, went into the msc, got the brief, found out who it was, and I was shattered, man, that I wasn't there. I felt like I had not been there. And that immediately felt like I had skated out in some way, that I. That I make the right decision. I shouldn't be here. I should be there. And, you know, couple hours, you know, now it's, you know, five in the morning. You know, guys are coming into Naval Special Warfare Group 1. It's a big deal. We've now lost a seal. And so we're in. We're in this conference room and this other master chief comes in and we start, okay, so now we're planning on next of kin notification and we're pulling all the data. Like, so they're turning to me because I'm the one who has all this. I'm like, hey, hey, where is the next of kin? And in those days, there had already been some mistakes. There had already been Some unfortunate situations where the news media wanting to have access to information and being embedded information so sometimes could leak out. They've gotten better at this, I think. But at this point it was a race to get to the family before, God forbid, they saw something in the news because the news 24 hour news cycle stuff would get out and that was the last thing we wanted was family to see something on the news. And, you know, Navy SEAL being killed would be a big deal. That would catch the headlines pretty quickly.
- [81:18]
A
Yeah.
- [81:19]
B
So, you know, we kind of figure out, oh, you know, not like, I mean, you don't exactly know where everybody lives, but like, oh, next to kin is in Orange County. That's, that's an hour and a half from here. So. So it's a local team. So because, because sometimes like if they were from Texas, it's like, okay, well who do we have in Texas? Who's going to get to the family? You know, where, where are they? We're like, oh, this is here. So, so it's a local team. So they quickly put together, you know, chaplain, you know, a commander from another team. And I'm like, I'm like, no, no, no, I'm going, this is my guy.
- [81:56]
A
Yeah.
- [81:56]
B
And they were like. And I remember, I remember the commodore looking at me and go, he kind of like. I was like, I remember, sir, this is my guy. I'm going, he kind of, he kind of like cocked his head and he's like, like, yeah. Like there was no pushback, but you.
- [82:11]
A
Were going no matter what, whether it's official or not.
- [82:14]
B
Yeah, he's, he, he kind of like has, he's like, yeah. And, and so now I raced. I lived at this point, I lived in Chula Vista, California. So I probably 25, 30 minute drive from the command. I raced home, had to get my blues, put that uniform on, come back, we get a van and we start driving up. I mean, this is all happening, you know, and I guess we're going here. So we drive up there and. We pulled in this gas station just around the corner from the house. Because, you know, you kind of have your jacket off in the car. It's like not comfortable, right. So we get out, get our jackets on, make sure everything is straight, right. And then we pulled around the corner, we find the house. It's right there. And it was just this beautiful neighborhood, Perfectly manicured, green lawns, American flag hanging from their house. It's pretty clear that was their house. And we go and we sort of line up and it was the commander who knocked on the door. And we stood there for what felt like a long time. And I saw the slats on the blinds, like, kind of open, and then door just kind of cracked open. And it was Sally Mansoor. I had never met her, didn't know what she looked like. And she opened the door and. And I remember hearing the commander say, sally Mansoor. And she said, yes. He says, we have some news about your son. And I just remember. Just. I just saw, like, the whole. Like, her whole body just. And she sort of just let the door crack open, and. And we went inside, and she sat down, and, you know, he said, I'm sorry your son has been killed, and we're sorry for your loss. And, I mean, nobody kind of knew what else to say at that point, you know. And she stood there looking at all of us, and she said, well, so did any of you actually know my son? I was like, yes, ma', am, I did. Mike. He's my guy, man. He's my platoon. And then she very politely said, well, thank you all for coming. I think my family and I would like our privacy. And she was there by herself. You know, she had been, you know, Andrew, would you mind staying? I said, of course. You know, and as it turned out, you know, really all she wanted. Well, so as we stood there, gosh, this was. She goes. She goes, well, if you knew my son, like, why. Well, why. Why are you here? And you see, that was the secret that I. My dirty little secret, you know, that I kind of wish she wouldn't know, right? And I said, oh, well, because my son was just born. So I came home a couple of weeks early like the coward that I am, right? That's how I felt inside.
- [85:58]
A
That's the guilt.
- [86:02]
B
And she said, You're where you're supposed to be. She goes, you're supposed to be here for your son. And the truth of the matter is, one of the guys that Mikey saved was that other officer who essentially took my place. And who knows how that could have gone now. He lived, but, you know, any number of circumstances could have gone the other way. And now I look back and it's like, well, gosh, you know, what? If something had happened to me? Then I wouldn't have been there to raise my boys. And it's all worked out the way it needed to be. But I'll never forget that. She's like, good, you're where you're supposed to be. I never forget forgot her saying that to me. And over the next couple of days, they're very private family. They just didn't want anybody around. News tried to show up at their house, and all they wanted was for me to tell them stories about the deployment and what Mikey was like and really what the last couple of months of Mikey's life on this planet, what that was like. And that's also when I knew that's why I was there. In their family's greatest need, I was able to be there for them in a way that nobody else could be. So in God's plan, in his infinite wisdom, there's a reason why I wasn't on the rooftop that day, why I came home for Gunner, and why I was able to be there for Mikey's mom and their family in the. In the following days. So I then took on the job as the Keiko and, you know, put together all the arrangements and all that stuff. So.
- [88:04]
A
It doesn't seem like it in the moment, but as you share that story, You know, you were doing what every great leader should do, and it was just a different version of you taking care of your guys because you're taking care of his family. That's what good leaders do, man.
- [88:23]
B
Yeah.
- [88:23]
A
It doesn't just end with the guys. It extends to the family. And. Sure, and I understand the guilt that you feel, and I don't think anybody would ever say that you shouldn't feel that, because that's a normal thing, but you were taking care of Mikey's family, and I think that's one of the best things that you could have been doing.
- [88:41]
B
Yeah. I mean, it's been a long time, and I don't second guess myself too hard on that anymore, you know, But I definitely did and carried a lot of guilt about that. And even as I go back to that place and in that time to share that experience with you, which I don't really talk to anybody, Anybody about that, but it's you and me here right now, so I think I'm able to kind of do that. But as you can see, like, if I. When I go back to those moments, they're pretty raw, you know? And funny thing is, is, like, you know, people will ask me. I'll say, people will ask me, you know, over the past years, like, you know, will come up in different conversations. Oh, well, you know. You know. You know, do you have any ptsd, you know, or any of that? And I was like, you know, honestly, like, I don't have any from combat, per se. Dude, I'd go back in a heartbeat.
- [89:42]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [89:43]
B
No factor. The hardest part that I have is the pain from the loss of my friends. That's it. I don't have, like, I don't wake up in cold sweats, you know, with like bombs going off around me. I mean, some guys do. I don't mean to minimize that in any way. I'm just telling you my personal experience, the pain that I have from my experience and my time in the military is the pain that I feel for the loss of my friends and the heroic, heroic ways in which they died, in which they sacrificed for us, for their brothers, for the soldiers, for the marines, for freedom, for liberty, for our way of life. Yeah, it's just. It's truly. They're. Mark, Mikey Biggles, Ryan Jobe are true heroes. Yeah, True heroes. And when I think about my time in the military, I'm astonished that I happened to be in the right place at the right time. That I had the incredible honor and timing to have served alongside true giants of our generation. That's it. I was a small cog at the wheel. That's it.
- [91:17]
A
Well, you did a dang good job. You decided to get out of the military. Was that a hard decision? Was it a decision that you knew was the right decision, though, which made it a little bit easier. Like, very conflicting.
- [91:31]
B
What was your.
- [91:31]
A
Okay, so. Okay, very conflicting. What was that transition like? I mean, you had at the time, you had been softly building a mortgage business, correct?
- [91:42]
B
Hadn't been building it, No. I mean, I just, you know, when I was on active duty at the time, I had ended up buying some houses and housing market was white hot. And you know, anybody who bought a house all of a sudden thought you were hot stuff, you know, so I had gotten to know some people in the mortgage business who had, you know, dangled this carrot in front of me like, you know, oh, you know, to come work here and you'd be great at this job and like, okay, you know, and. But. But I hadn't been building any kind of a mortgage business, but having.
- [92:15]
C
At.
- [92:15]
B
The time, just the op tempo and everything, having two kids born on two back to back deployments, not home for either of those. My wife now, my ex wife, if that tells you anything, who, by the way, I get along great with.
- [92:25]
A
Yeah, you do.
- [92:26]
B
My ex wife and I.
- [92:26]
A
You guys do it. You do.
- [92:29]
B
Yeah.
- [92:29]
A
You guys do it the right way. Because it's about the kids 100%.
- [92:33]
B
And I've got some great stories about that. But my ex wife, if she's listening to this, you're awesome. You're a great mother. And we get along great to this day. But my ex wife, Sheila, you know, I mean, fair enough. I mean, she's done, dude. She's like, dude, like, you're gone. I mean, even when we're not deployed, we're gone all the time, right? So she's got. We had. I had two crazy dogs, she got a brand new baby, and I'm not there to help. Not there. I come home, hey, what's up? High five. See you, get you pregnant. And off I go again. You know, I mean, that stuff, right? I mean. And so then the other one's born, she's going through all these births, all these raises without me. She's done. Marriage is on the rocks. We're stressed. And so I've done two deployments now and very short period of time. And I'm like, hey, guys, listen, I need one year. I need one year to just like, tidy up at home, you know, just get the family, two young kids. I need, just need to get solid foundation and then, boom, I'll go out the door again. Just give me a year. Like, can I. Can I take a knee at group or trade at or something for just a year and then I'll cycle into another platoon. And just, again, I'm just trying to be respectful here, but a senior officer who was sort of in a more senior role at the SEAL team was basically like, no, you have to take another platoon. And I was like, then, here's my papers. Sorry, you can edit that out if you want. And so I was, you know, gave me an ultimatum. This is what I had wanted to do from when I was a little kid. All I wanted to be was. All I wanted to do was to be a seal. All I wanted to do was to, you know, I finally got that chance. I told you all that. You know, I finally got a chance. I made it through buds. I became a SEAL a couple of times. I mean, this is what I wanted to do. But I also had a family that was struggling and two very young kids. And it was like. And literally he was like, no, you have to take another platoon.
- [94:32]
A
What an example of horrible leadership.
- [94:35]
B
Yes. And again, I'm not going to mention him. There's no need to. But there are numerous other examples of where this guy was a terrible leader. And I learned as much from him as I did from my good leaders. And so I put my paperwork in. Now here's what's unfortunate. And again, I don't have any regrets. I really don't. I really do not have any regrets. Interestingly. Enough, just before Mikey died, he had written a letter home to his sister saying, you know, you know, it's been a great deployment. We've had a massive impact. Hey, we're coming home in a couple of days. No regrets. When I came to their house to tell them that he was dead, she came home, you know, 20 minutes later after everybody else had left, and she's like, what are you talking about? He just sent me an email that said he was coming home. Freaking horrible. But anyway, so because of that, on Mikey's tombstone, the bottom of this tombstone says, no regrets.
- [95:44]
A
I love that.
- [95:46]
B
And I really don't have any regrets. I heard some psychologist or psychiatrist on some podcast one time say, anybody who lives with no regrets is a psychopath. I'm like, you know what, dude? I disagree with that. I don't think it's healthy to live with regrets, and I don't have any. I mean, I truly look at the circumstances and the situations and go, I believe I made the best decision I could at that time based on this, the options that were in front of me. So I don't have any regrets about this. I'm not going to go live in the past. I coulda, shoulda, woulda about what the future of my career in a SEAL Teams could have looked like had I not gotten out. I also know that because I got out, I was able to be present to raise my two boys to be the incredible young men that they've become.
- [96:32]
A
Yes.
- [96:34]
B
And I wouldn't have been able to be present for them the way I was had I stayed in the SEAL team. So it was a tough decision. So when you asked me, like, okay, you decided to get. Yes. It was a very conflicted decision. I felt like my heart was being pulled like a tug of war in two directions. One, for the career that I had worked so hard for in a job that I loved, serving my country and in the capacity of being a seal. And yet I looked over at my young family who needed me so badly, too.
- [97:02]
A
Yeah, you made the right decision.
- [97:05]
B
I have no regrets about that decision, nor should you.
- [97:09]
A
So building up the mortgage business, I know there's a lot of ups and downs. You do a great job sharing those stories on Jocko's podcast. But, you know, what are some of the things that you took from the SEAL teams and applied to building a business?
- [97:23]
B
Just hard work, never given up. I mean, you know, that's. I mean, you can't quit. You just in. You know, I got into the mortgage business essentially in 070.8 time frame. And it probably, you know, the worst time to be in real estate industry. Right. Everything was, was tough. What I noticed was that people who had been in the business for the last couple of years were riding pretty high. Using the mute button. They were riding pretty high. They had all made a lot of money, done very, very, very well. But they got, they got used to business coming in very easily. People started to confuse the market with their skills, meaning they thought they were that good when really it was just the market was that good and when the market was no longer that good. And a lot of these people in real estate and mortgage at that time had built up a lifestyle, you know, as if the business was going to always come in like this. And so as it was going like this, they started to become very, very frustrated and upset and ah, this market sucks. And whiny, whiny, whiny. And I was starting from the bottom, didn't know any better. So I just was like, put my rucksack on and up we go. I was starting from zero. So while they were sitting, well, while they were sitting on the side of the road complaining because it's not as good as it used to be. I didn't know any better. I mean every deal I had was one more than I had, you know. Yeah. And they were, you know, people were used to closing 10 or 20 deals a month, closing five. And I was like, this is the worst month ever. I'm like, that'd be my best month ever, you know, so. So it's a little bit of perspective. All I didn't. And I just took my work ethic, dude. I would. I mean I show up at the darn mortgage off at 6:30 in the morning. That was late, you know what I mean? Because like, you know, officers calls like 6am Right? So like we're. So I'm showing up there and hey, nobody's showing up to that office for two, three hours later I sat there reading loan guidelines. Nobody do anything. I taught myself the business, I taught myself. And all of a sudden I'm like figuring things out. They're like, how'd you know that? I'm like, I don't know. I read it in the book. It's written the guideline. They're like, what's that? I mean I just kind of geeked out on it, you know, but, but it was, it was tough. And ultimately, you know, long story short, you know, ended up going through a divorce, lost a house to foreclosure, short sold another one pretty close to being on the street, to be totally honest with you, you know, but came through the other side, battled back. You know, I all but filed for bankruptcy. I mean, that's a whole nother story. I mean, it's just, you know, just no money, dude, no credit cards, driving an old 94 Land Rover that was basically a project car. And it just, you know, and in those days, there wasn't the resources that there are today. And even today, it's tough to match veterans to resources. But there just wasn't even available then, you know, there was no lifeline that all my friends, all my brothers, you know, guys like you and other, you know, other guys, you know, don't mention names necessarily, but they. They were on deployment. I didn't have. I couldn't get on the phone and call my. My bros and connect with them. They were off on a workup or on a deployment or out of town. And so my network of brothers was not available to me. You know, I didn't have anybody to turn to. So I just kept going, man. I just kept going and just wasn't going to ring that bell.
- [101:05]
A
So when you say you were close to being on the streets, what was, like, that pivotal shift that you made to be like, all right, hey, if I'm so close to being on the streets, I have to make this work? What was your thought process behind that? Like, what?
- [101:24]
B
Here's the truth. I was living in a house that I hadn't made a payment on in probably 18 months. In those days, there was such a glut of short sales and foreclosures. The banks were so backlogged. I mean, I just stayed living in the house. They finally caught up, foreclosed. They had such a glut of foreclosures that I just kept living in the house. And then finally I came home one day. Came home, I mean, one day, and there was a note on the door. You know, it was like the sheriff's notice that was like, hey, we'll be here Monday. Don't be, you know. So when I say it was, like, close to living, being on the street, like. Like I had no place to go, jp. I mean, I. Like, I did, like, a yard sale and got rid of everything in the house. I'd already been kind of working on that. I put the rest of the things in the Land Rover and pulled out of there, like that was it. And then I called my dad, and he had a condo, and he had no idea this was going on. He had a condo, and he's like, go to the condo, you know?
- [102:28]
A
Yeah.
- [102:28]
B
It felt so weird. I went in this place and, like, I. Like, I remember sleeping. I remember feeling like I shouldn't be here, you know? But that was it. I lived in that condo for a year. And then. So funny. That's when I met my wife, my now wife, Brooke. And. And it's like a nice condo in downtown. And. And, you know, I remember her coming over one time. I was like, yeah, that's where I live. Whatever. And, like, to this day, she'll tell you, she's like, you. You led me to believe that that was your condo. I was like, I never said that was my condo. I never said it was my condo. I just said I lived here, you know, I said, besides which, you know, I met you, and what am I going to do? Hey, nice to meet you. I'm broke. Total loser. Living in my dad's condo. But come on over. Like, I mean, who's going to say that? You know? I mean, but that's the fact that that's. That's the reality. So when. I mean, I literally. It was the last person I wanted to call. I didn't want to call my dad felt like a total failure. And he's like, why didn't you call me sooner? I was like, yeah, obviously. And I would want my son to call me, but I. All this was going on. I never told him any of it. He's like, go to the condo. I mean, I had a key to the condo. I just wouldn't. And he's like, go. So I went to the condo. I lived there for like a year, and then eventually got my own apartment.
- [103:49]
A
Cool. Yeah.
- [103:49]
C
But how did Brook feel whenever you got the apartment and it was no longer going to the condo?
- [103:56]
B
Well, so. So. So Brooke had her own apartment up in Del Mar, California. In Del Mar. Was that.
- [104:07]
C
My aunt lives in Del Mar. It's a nice area.
- [104:09]
B
Yeah, it's a nice area.
- [104:09]
A
Yeah.
- [104:10]
B
I was. I had. So I. I was moving up in the world. I. I'd gone from Chula Vista to downtown San Diego in my dad's condo. And then. And then she was living up in Del Mar, so I was driving up to Del Mar to see her all the time because she was smoking hot and I was in love with her. So. So I was driving through. So finally I was like, I had to get it. I got to get a place up here. I'm just getting killed in gas, you know? So I got an apartment up there. But shifting gears here a little bit, you Know, I did things a little bit out of order my first marriage, like, you know, met again. My ex wife, Sheila and I are like, really great friends. Sheila, my now wife, Brooke, we all get along really well. I mean, Sheila, I mean, like, we have everybody over and she's there for Thanksgiving. We did spring break a year and a half ago with her, all of us, because it was like the last year. We're gonna have all the kids in the house. Like, I mean, we are, like, we're all great friends, so. But what was I gonna tell you about this? Sorry.
- [105:13]
A
You did things differently.
- [105:15]
B
Oh, yeah. So, like, look, my. So Sheila I met at MCPs, okay? Like, I met her in a bar, right? We got. You know, my faith was not the center of our relationship. I was, you know, young guy on the teams. I wasn't going to church. I had that foundation, but I wasn't. I had drifted apart from that. And then, you know, we got married. Non traditionally, like, you know, on the beach in the Bahamas, you know, like, just. And so, you know, having been through all of that, the financial ruin, divorce, you know, et cetera, et cetera. I kind of got back going to church again, and I was like, all right. I was like, you know, there's. There's a. I think there's a book. I'm just borrowing the title of it to make my point, which is it's like his ways are better than my ways. And I sort of gave into that. I was like, you know what? Like, I tried it. My way didn't work out. I said, God, I'm doing it your way. I said, you send me a godly woman. So, like, this is gonna sound corny, especially given my background, everything else, but I was like, I can't admit this right now. I stopped masturbating. And I said, I'm not going to have sex before marriage. Which is wild because I'd already had sex before marriage and had kids already, whatever. So my. So Brooke and I, when we met. So we met on eharmony. And I was like, hey, my faith is really important to me. So I got matched with the woman who faith. So Brooke and I have to share that faith. Sheila and I do not share that. Sheila does not believe or go to church. You know, at least maybe she does now. I don't know. But, like. But my marriage to Brooke, she and I are the foundation of our marriage is one on faith. And so we decided not to have sex before we got married. And we also decided not to move in together. So yes. So I got a separate apartment. She lived in one place, and when we finally got married, we all moved into this two bedroom, two bath apartment that I had all three kids in one room and Brooke and I had another room. It was total mayhem. We had Friday night fights. Like, literally, the boys would box as little kids. She's like, what the hell is going on? If you've ever seen the movie Overboard with Goldie Hawn. Yeah, right. Okay, well, like, that is like what my Brooks experience was with me. Her daughter Sierra is like, very well behaved. She sits there and plays with her doll in an area about the size of a hula hoop. My boys were like Tasmanian devils. They were basically feral when we met. And my wife comes over, she comes over to my place. She's like, what is going on? Dishes piled up, clothes everywhere. The boy's throwing wet, dirty towels on the ground. She's like, you will no longer put wet towels on the floor. And the boy's like, but Daddy does it. And you know, she's like that. So it was like quite the abrupt, abrupt transition. So we had different places, but then we got married. We moved in this one place and we lived in that tiny, tiny, tiny apartment as I was getting back on my feet financially and just sort of rebuilding. So anyway.
- [108:28]
A
That's awesome.
- [108:29]
C
That is awesome, man.
- [108:31]
A
His way is always better than our way. Absolutely, dude. That's awesome. I'm really thankful you shared that, you know? And then Echelon front opportunity comes about.
- [108:42]
B
Yep.
- [108:43]
A
And I remember talking to you. I believe Leif and Jocko had already been talking to you, but we linked up. When it was at the commissioning of the USS Michael Mansource.
- [109:00]
B
Trying to think of that, because it might have even been before that, because I came to Muster one.
- [109:06]
A
Yeah, I remember us at Muster one. I'm just saying, I'm thinking like the official.
- [109:10]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [109:10]
A
Like conversations now that. Yeah, there have been conversations for a while because you were at the first muster. We both attended it, you know, and. During this time, Seth passed away. And I remember Leif called me and told me. And then you and I talked that day.
- [109:33]
B
Yeah, you called me and told me. I remember exactly where I was, too.
- [109:42]
A
I was, you know, just. It was a real hard time for all of us because I know you and Seth had a good relationship. And I know that you had dealt with some of that guilt of getting out, like I did, like a lot of guys do when they get out. What was that season of your life like?
- [110:18]
B
Well, I remember I had just gone to a New mortgage company as well. And I remember I was like, I'm out of here, guys. I gotta go take care of some business. And I went up and I, like, slept on the floor of the morgue for a couple of days while they were figuring out what they were gonna do with Seth's body. And I just. I mean, yeah, I just kind of. Each time we have ended up losing somebody, it just somehow snaps me back to that time and brings all these raw emotions back. And, you know, it brought a lot of us together, but it was very painful. It's a whole other thing, man. It's wild. But I remember just sort of, like, walking away from everything for a couple of weeks and just being so engrossed in that I went up to Paris where, you know, where he died. And the police officer officers up there were awesome, but trying to figure out, like, what happened and all that. And I remember we were walking around the field, and it was just crazy. Like, we found the GoPro that he had had on him in the ground. And it was like a neat. Literally, like a needle in a haystack, you know? Anyway, I don't know if that's all relevant or anything, but. I have. I don't know, man.
- [111:59]
A
I mean, to your point, when you can never be prepared to lose your guys, to lose your friends, family members and you know that it was just hard. Like, when you're losing guys from the platoon. I mean, some guys were closer with the platoon mates, and then they were their actual family, 100%. So you lose a teammate, it's.
- [112:23]
B
Yeah. Oh, it's a family member, dude. I mean, I've known seth since Bud's class two four zero. I mean, it's been for 25 years, you know, I mean, went through Seth. He's my bro, man. All the. All the different girls. I mean, all the different, you know, proposals. I mean. Oh, my goodness.
- [112:48]
A
Seth. Seth loved. He loved to be in love.
- [112:51]
B
He loved hard, too. Like, I remember some of the. Just, you know, I mean, he's my bro. Hey, dude, I need you. You know, this one time I had to go. I went down and set this whole, like, romantic proposal thing up on the beach at north island and, like, set all this table with, like, a champagne glass and all this stuff and this surprise proposal and. Oh, my goodness, all the shenanigans that I helped him with, but. And then, you know, when we were going through buds, he was. I can't remember if he had been married yet or if he was still dating Sonia, but one of the Bud's instructor's sisters when we were going through buds.
- [113:34]
A
Oh, yeah. I remember hearing about that.
- [113:36]
B
So way to get a little extra attention, buddy. You know, but. Oh, man.
- [113:44]
A
Yeah. Seth's passing away was obviously devastating for our task unit, you know, and the guy. Especially the guys in Delta Platoon, and. But like you said, it brought back together. And then, you know, they did the commissioning of the USS Michael Mansour for Mikey.
- [113:58]
B
Yep.
- [113:59]
A
And, you know, it was really cool seeing the way the Navy honored him with that ship. And then I remember what caught me off guard when we were walking through the ship doing the tour is just seeing pictures of Seth.
- [114:11]
B
Yeah.
- [114:12]
A
And Mikey and just the guys, and it was just. It was surreal being a part of that historic moment of them commissioning that ship.
- [114:21]
B
And.
- [114:21]
A
And Brigadier General Clark was there, and having him speak there was absolutely incredible. And just the way how the ship personnel conducted themselves at just the utmost professional. It was just a really cool thing watching them honor our teammates in that ceremony. And I remember we were at one of the dinners following that, and that's when there's, like, more serious talks about you coming on board Echelon from.
- [114:53]
B
Yeah.
- [114:54]
A
So you came on board Echelon front as a leadership instructor, and, man, it's been awesome.
- [114:59]
B
Yeah.
- [114:59]
A
It's been.
- [115:00]
B
Came on board initially as. As the Chief of Staff and doing a lot of paperwork, because you know what? That's what junior officers do, paperwork. You know, I guess I'm good at that stuff. Yeah. So did that for a few years, and I just couldn't. I. I honestly just couldn't do it all anymore. And Leif and Jaco were very gracious, and they were, like, cool. I remember Leif was like, what do you want to do? He goes, you can do, dude. I don't know why I get choked up about this, and it's just because I know Leif's my brother, man. He goes, dude, what do you want to do? He goes, you can do whatever you want at this company.
- [115:43]
A
Yeah.
- [115:43]
B
And I was like, can I. Can I just be an instructor? He goes, yeah. Because how many. How many. How many events you want to do because. Do as much or as little as you want.
- [115:53]
A
Yeah. I was like, it's unreal, the heart posture that Jocko and Leif have for what they've built for the guys and the gals that work with the. At our company and just to see how it's grown. And, I mean, you were absolutely pivotal in our growth of just that chief estab position, taking stuff off of Leif and Jocko's plate, just creating systems and just helping just us become a legitimate company, which was awesome. And now, you know, you did that. You got us where we needed. You've been instrument, just pivotal, as I said, to the growth of bringing on our director of radar and different stuff to be able to build out these different departments at Echelon Front. And, you know, you still have your mortgage business and, you know, you're a leadership instructor at Echelon Front. What. What got you into running fifty and hundred mile races, bro?
- [116:49]
B
Well, I guess being the chief of staff wasn't hard enough, so I had to go do a few other things. You know, it's interesting. I mean, as you get a little bit older, I mean, I. I started to struggle with. I started to struggle. I found I was not as good at like these higher intensity workouts. And I got to a point where it's like every time I did CrossFit, I threw my back out. It's just like, you know, these dynamic Olympic moves. And so I was just looking for some hard challenge. I do like to do hard things. I want to constantly challenge. I want to constantly challenge. I want to constantly push myself if something is. If somebody's like, oh, you know, you couldn't do that, or that's too like. I'm like, all right, well, I want to go try and do that. I mean, it's kind of part of what attracted me to BUDS and being a seal too. So I heard about these things called ultramarathons, you know, and then it's like, wait, there's something more than a marathon. Like, let's check it out. So ultramarathons, I mean, they're becoming a lot more popular now. But I suppose the definition of an. I am not the expert on this, but I suppose the definition of an ultramarathon is any distance beyond a marathon. And they generally start at the 50 kilometer distance, which is 31 miles, and then the next kind of typical distance after that is a 50 mile race, then a hundred kilometer race, which is 62 miles, and then a 100 mile race. And they have some that are longer than that.
- [118:24]
A
Like the Moab 240.
- [118:25]
B
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, Yep, exactly. Those races are a couple days, you know, those are not. And so a lot of this running is lower intensity running, you know. So, like, people will say, well, hey, what pace do you run at? I'm like, all right, this is a trick question. I hate it when people ask me this because, I mean, it's. It's altitude dependent. It's terrain dependent, it's elevation dependent, meaning like how much climbing you're doing, you know. So for me, I suppose the guys who are like outright winning these races, they're probably running up the mountain even at a slow pace. I'm not, I mean, on a, on a, on a climb, it's more of a power hike and you're going to be running the flats and the downs and you're power hiking and managing your heart rate. And so there's a few. So it's a lot of Zone two. A lot of Zone two. And in managing that effort over time, so it takes some discipline because at the beginning of a race, you feel like you can run a lot faster than what you are running, because you can run a lot faster right now, but you can't maintain that for 24 or 34 hours or something like that. Right. So it takes some discipline to rein yourself in. And then as you get deeper into these races, especially 100 mile race, I mean, for me, like somewhere around mile 70, 75 is like the toughest part. Typically middle of the night. At that point, you know, you're tired, you're running low on, on your, you know, food stores. So Zone two. So by the way, so let me just mention this about zone two. And I've got a running coach again. His name's Jeff Browning. I think he's won more 100 mile races than anybody else besides maybe Carl Meckler. But Jeff Browning's a total ultra champion. So that's why I sought him out to be my coach. For me, I was like, I want to be coached by somebody who's, who's done that. And what's cool about Jeff is he's, I think he's like 54 or 55 right now. So I'm 47. So it's like, hey, there's no excuse. Like, I mean, and you can't be like, oh, well, yeah, you're great because you're like 30. You know, it's like, no, he's 55 and he's still crushing it. So he kind of sets an example for me of like, hey, you can still be doing this. But anyway, so he's the one who's really taught me a lot about the Zone 2 training. And the idea is that, you know, once you go up to, once your heart rate goes over a certain amount, you're, you know, you're creating a much higher demand signal on your body. Your body needs energy now and need it fast. So that's when you start to tap into your glycogen stores and you only have so much glycogen on board. And so obviously we take gels and replenish our energy. But you ever hear the term that you bonk, right? That's because you've used up all of your glycogen. When you stay down in zone two, you stay in fat burning mode and you have basically an unlimited supply of onboard fat. So I mean, just, I mean, if you're really fit, really fit, let's just say you're 10% body fat. Let's just say, well, if you're 200 pounds, you got 20 pounds of fat, you got basically an unlimited amount of fat on board. So you want to stay in this fat burning mode because you have an unlimited fuel supply of that, essentially. And then the trick becomes being able to run faster and faster and faster while still staying in zone two. Right. That's really kind of what you're playing for. And of course, at certain times, depending on the temperature or the humidity, your heart rate could go up. And if you've got to go up a mountain or something, you may push up. But every time you push up into these higher heart rate zones, you know, you're definitely tapping into the glycogen source. Also, the byproduct of that glycogen burning is lactic acid. That lactic acid creates fatigue and muscle strain, et cetera. So staying in fat burning mode is something you can do for a much longer period of time. So anyway, that's sort of some of the sum of the training strategy around a lot of zone two, A lot of zone two training. But it's a great challenge. I love to challenge myself. I'm starting to find that as I'm getting a little bit older, I mean, I'm not old by any means. I'm 47.
- [122:48]
A
Right.
- [122:49]
B
So a lot of tread left on the tire. But. But what I see is that there's a lot of guys who are in their 60s and even in their 70s still doing some of these ultramarathons. So I look at this as. This is something I hope to be doing for another 20 years. I hope to age well. So, for example, I love Peter Attia's book Outlive a couple of things that I love. In that book, he makes this distinction between lifespan and health span. So in this day and age, many of us are living much longer. Our lifespan is longer. We got people living into their 80s, 90s and centenarians into 100, whatever. But what's the quality of life. We've got machines, oxygen machines, and statins and pacemakers and all of this stuff. So you're alive, but what's the quality of your life? Right? That's the difference between lifespan and health span. I have a long term goal with this running. This long term goal is a long term health goal, which is that I want to just be fit and healthy into my old age. So to have a really long health span.
- [124:04]
A
I love it, man.
- [124:05]
B
You know, something that's very hard to come to grips with is that I'm not going to be on the podium. You know what I mean? The days of, you know, those days are not. Are probably not, you know, they're. They're gone, right? And you can already hear the hesitation. It's just like. It's like, I can't. I can't. I'm a competitive person, right? And. And so I'll get you on the.
- [124:27]
A
Podium with jiu jitsu. I mean, it's by age bracket.
- [124:35]
B
Okay.
- [124:37]
C
Levels up 10 in the world for about 30 minutes.
- [124:41]
B
I'm gonna be. I'm gonna be the one day white belt champion.
- [124:45]
C
That's exactly what I was, man.
- [124:48]
A
I know Lucas has some questions. I know we've been talking for a while. Andrew.
- [124:51]
B
I can talk. I can talk.
- [124:53]
A
Well, I just want to say thank you for coming on the podcast, sharing these stories, being vulnerable, being transparent and honest and raw. You know, I appreciate it. I know our listeners do. And, you know, I'm just thankful for due to our friendship and the time we had in SQT and the time we had in the SEAL teams. And now what we get to do with Echelon front is. It's just unreal. And it's. You know, I was smiling when you're getting emotional, talking about what Leif told you, because I often get emotional when I think about the things that Jocko and Leif have told me, the opportunities they've given me and just their unconditional love for us and the example that they set for all of us of how we should be conducting ourselves as leaders. And you exemplify that as well. You always have. And you're a good representation of tasking a bruiser Delta platoon. And I know you strive to live your life, to honor our fallen teammates, and you do it, man. You do it very well.
- [125:51]
B
Thank you.
- [125:52]
A
Lucas, what do you got for Andrew? So I got, besides like 17 pages of notes.
- [125:56]
C
Yeah, I really do. I've got so much stuff over here, not the least of which is that I found. And I sent you A picture of it.
- [126:02]
A
Your.
- [126:03]
C
Your granddad's plane.
- [126:06]
B
You found it?
- [126:07]
C
I found it.
- [126:07]
B
The Weary Willie.
- [126:08]
C
Yeah, I found a picture of it. And this is when it's on its way to Europe. A picture that was taken by Boeing because they tracked all of them. So it's got his tail number and.
- [126:18]
B
All that stuff on it.
- [126:20]
C
And I've also found a couple of references to them in a book, which I'll. I'll hand some of that stuff out to you off air. That's why I was giving you the warning beforehand. Like, research is. Is my jam.
- [126:34]
A
Cool.
- [126:34]
C
What's it like to, to do a ship takedown? Like, I've never, I've heard of this. Years ago, I got to interview a guy who, whose pirate or whose ship was taken over by pirates. He was captive for a few days and then, you know, he's talked about like, what that experience was like a little bit. But I want to know like, what a ship takedown is.
- [127:00]
B
Well, I don't want to get into too much tactics on this.
- [127:04]
C
Sure.
- [127:04]
B
But at a high level, I'll just say this. It's one. It's probably, I'm gonna say it's probably the second most dangerous thing that we do in the SEAL teams. And, and the most dangerous thing I would say is just diving. So the water, first and foremost is the most unforgiving environment, period. It's nature at its rawest form. And so I would say diving is the most dangerous thing. I'd say ship take down is number two. And look, maybe somebody will say, no, it's the other way around. Okay, fine, whatever, whatever. But it's very dynamic and so that, and that can range. I mean, look, there can be takedowns that we do on calm waters on a small ship that you're coming alongside and it's easy to kind of hop on board and it's real quick and it's easy. But on the other end of that spectrum, could be high seas. Could be a ship that knows we're coming, has armed guards. It's what we would call an opposed boarding and opposed boarding. Good luck, dude. If you do not want somebody coming onto your ship, I mean, you're fighting an uphill battle, Right. So you're talking about like a large like oil tanker or something like that. I mean, the mechanics of getting on board, again, I'm not going to get into it, but it's not that hard. Now I've done numerous of these things at night on nods, heavy sea state. And, and look, we, we just lost A couple seals. I think it's about a year and a half or two years ago now. And I'm not gonna. I. I do not want to do what this other guy did, like when we were in Bruce. I don't want an armchair quarterback. But. But I know there were some lessons learned from that experience. Obviously, if we lose somebody, something didn't go right. But to be honest with you, my understanding of that situation is just that it's not so much the enemy as it was just you can slip and fall and hit the water and you're heavy and you got all this gear on and you sink. Dude or Seth. We were talking about Seth. Seth was injured in a. In a shipboarding training evolution. Seth was on the rib below. Guy up aboard up, fell off the ladder and landed on Seth and broke his neck. So it's just. It's very dynamic. And then, you know, not the least of which, you know, depending on the size of the ship and then communications inside and then controlling that ship and whether that's an aft steering or up on the bridge and where people can be hiding and all the other systems. And are they going to start to turn and dart towards another protected area? Are they going to run the ship aground? Are they going to scuttle it? You're up against a lot of different things, so it can be very challenging. It's very difficult. Can be. Now, some of them. Some of them are, darn walk in the park, man. It's just.
- [130:16]
A
Leif shares a pretty crazy story about how he almost drowned doing shipboarding.
- [130:20]
B
Yes. Yep.
- [130:22]
A
I mean, it's. It. Like when you asked that question, I was wiping my palms because my palms started sweating. I'm like, yeah, it's extremely, extremely dynamic. Dangerous. It is. Even in training. Like, you know, I know Jocko, Leif and you and myself, a lot of guys have said this a lot. Anytime you're training in water, it's a real life mission. Like, it is life and death.
- [130:44]
B
Yep. Very unforgiving. And. And not the least of which, you come alongside a ship and that boat, we got to pin that thing up against it. And at that point, if somebody is aware of your presence and they now want to oppose you coming on board, they have the high ground. Yeah.
- [131:04]
C
They've got all the tactical advantage, every bit of it.
- [131:06]
B
They're on a stable platform to hide behind. Probably a metal. Essentially a fortified position. They've got cover. You're down below on a thing that's moving around. You're looking up lights in your. I mean, dude, it's, it's, it's, it's a challenging situation.
- [131:21]
C
Yeah, I, I think from the, the I throw a term out there that like JP rolls eyes again, from the NCC standpoint, we all think of Captain Phillips, right? They're like, this is it. This is what, what happens. And the, the idea that this is something that I guess the reality that this is something that is not like, oh, every few months they sometimes get a call that like, oh, there's, you know, a passenger ship that's been captured by pirates. But this is like a routine thing that, you know, are opposite. You guys have to do is, is pretty wild.
- [131:54]
A
Yeah, I mean the Coast Guard is doing that stuff all the time. Yeah, I mean the Coast Guard, what they're doing with their ship boardings is crazy.
- [132:02]
C
Yeah, that's, that's. Well, but it does, it does make sense that they would want a SEAL officer helping coordinate with all of, all those kinds of things, especially with, with the nature and the sensitivity and the dynamic. You know, just kind of situations that you guys would get yourself into because sometimes you're coming up on the side of a dinghy and other side. Other times it's a, it's a massive ship. So. Yeah, that was when you were talking about that. That was a big thing that stuck out to me. The thing number two is it's a guy we've mentioned several times on here on our podcast over the last couple of years and someone who got mentioned today. What was it like being an officer with somebody like Benny in the platoon who had a bunch of experience and.
- [132:47]
B
Talking about the Badger.
- [132:48]
A
Yes.
- [132:51]
C
He's one of these characters that periodically pops up in JP stories that I just want to know more about.
- [132:57]
B
I got to work with him quite a bit because he, in our platoon, especially during workup, he was the Carl Gustaf gunner. So the Carl Gustaf is an 84 millimeter recoilless rifle, Swedish made. And it's awesome. We can load all kinds of different 84 millimeter rounds into it. They can be armor piercing, they can be, you know, you can put a lume in there, you can put white phosphorus rounds in there. You can. You've got point detonation, you've got airburst rounds. It's a very powerful, very capable, very sort of dynamic weapon that we, we take with us. And he, he carried that thing. It's heavy. So, you know, you got your regular, everything else you're carrying and you gotta sling that thing over. And so he was the gunner and I was the assistant gunner so all that means I got to carry a couple extra rounds and follow him around and hand him rounds.
- [133:49]
A
That's awesome.
- [133:50]
B
Good. Junior officer. Officer. But Benny, I think, I think at one point he had like more quals than like anybody in the platoon. He had like. Yes, he'd like been to every, whatever, every jump master thing you could do. He had every specialized like javelin freaking shoot. Like a Javelin's like another like thing you thing you launch.
- [134:16]
C
Yeah. I think Tony Cowden was talking about and how much he enjoyed the javelins whenever he was on the show.
- [134:21]
B
So one of the cool things about the javelin is that it has this soft start function to it. So like the, the, the, the Carl Gustav, it all just shoots out the back. So like you're like, ah, you know, back blast area clear, you know, slap them on like, you know. And you, dude, if you, you're behind that, you're getting, you're done. Like you cannot be behind that thing. It'll probably kill you, you know?
- [134:45]
A
Yeah.
- [134:47]
B
So, but, so you also can't fire that thing from like. Let's say this, let's say this is like the, a room we're in, in a building and like there's the, like, there's like a window right there. You can't shoot the Carl Gustav from this room. You'll over pressurize this room.
- [135:00]
C
No way.
- [135:01]
B
Yeah, yeah, you can't shoot that. Yeah, it would just. There's. Where's it, where's the gas gonna go? Right? So. But the Javelin has this soft start where like it'll like poof. Like it'll like, it can like gently send it out and then once it gets out the window, it'll go. It has like kind of. So that's like all I know. But anyway, Benny could do all that stuff. He had like all these quals. Great guy. Super hard.
- [135:23]
A
Incredible sniper.
- [135:24]
B
Yep, there you go. Sniper right. JTAC everything and free fall, jump master everything. Hate every call, you know. And, and he was like, by the way, he was like small like me, you know, I don't know, he's. He might be five, six and a half, you know. And so it's funny, we have this cool picture of Delta platoon and like, I don't know if you're, are you in the front row or are you in the back row? You might be in the front row.
- [135:50]
A
I'm in the front.
- [135:51]
B
Yeah. So like the front row is like, I'm not even the shortest guy.
- [135:56]
A
Okay.
- [135:57]
B
So people don't realize this. Like, look, we got some big Dudes in the SEAL teams. We absolutely do. We also got a bunch of Stone. Yes. Yeah.
- [136:04]
C
I was gonna say when people think of seals, they think of Jocko and, And Seth.
- [136:08]
B
And we definitely have.
- [136:09]
A
Not even that tall, though.
- [136:10]
C
No, he's not. But he's just, you know, you think of somebody that's just, you know.
- [136:14]
B
Yeah, a massive guy and we definitely have a lot of big dudes.
- [136:17]
C
But.
- [136:17]
B
But what people don't realize is there's also a lot of guys. I'm telling you, this is also got a lot of guys like Benny, who are these small, tough, unassuming. You would never pick him out in a crowd. It's like, oh, that's the Navy seal. And yet he's the. One of the most capable, most accomplished professional operators that I've ever known in the teams.
- [136:41]
A
Yeah, yeah. I mean, we were. I can't remember what it was for, but I, I took a picture with him. We were both in our dress blue uniform. And his Triton is like, up on, like. Yeah, because of the rack he has, bro. Like, you nicknamed that the Parrot.
- [136:58]
B
Now that's awesome, man.
- [137:00]
C
Yeah. From a leadership standpoint, I'm curious, what's it like going into a position where you're leading a guy like that? Just from the organizational standpoint, how you're looked at, how do you step into your room where you're leading a guy. Yeah, he's got more qualifications than anybody else. One of the most capable operators out there, you're the junior officer, and they're like, hey, you're in charge of this guy.
- [137:24]
B
It's a great question. And this is what you do. You respect the fact that somebody like that has more experience than you. And you don't come in there as if you know everything. Now, I might be responsible, right? But I'm not going to be like, hey, hey, Benny, like, this is how we're going to do this because I outrank you, Right. Like, I'm the officer. But sometimes people think that when they're in a leadership role, they think that it's. That's their job. Their job is to make the decision and to command and direct. And, you know, and actually what a good leader does is a good leader recognizes their strengths and their weaknesses and their gaps, and they go, hey, jp, how do you. What. How would you recommend we infill to this target? What do you think would be a good overwatch position? And he goes, hey, if it were me, boss, I'd go this way. And I'd probably take our opinion in this Building right here. And I'd be like, sounds good. Let's do that. Right. As opposed to me telling somebody who's got more deployments and more experience than me how we're gonna do it. Right?
- [138:29]
A
Yeah.
- [138:29]
B
Because, you know, people say, oh, fake it till you make it. Baloney, dude. No way. Because, you know. You know, you're out there faking it. Like, guess who else knows you don't know what you're doing? Everybody. Yeah. You're not fooling anybody, you know, so just. Look, just very simply, just showing respect for people who have been there, done that, asking for their input. Even if at the end of the day say, hey, look, we're going to. You know, even if you have to make a call, I would be very careful about doing this. But even if you have to ultimately make a call, that is something different, at the very least, you better ask for their input. Show their respect. Ask for their guidance. When you do that, they start to go, oh, I feel like this happened. I don't. You know, I feel like the guys were like, yeah, yeah, Mr. Paul's a good dude. You know?
- [139:23]
A
Yeah. Because you. You and Seth would. There's times that, yes, as a leader, especially in SEAL teams in combat, you have to make a call.
- [139:30]
B
Yeah.
- [139:31]
A
But you guys didn't do that without at least talking to the guys. Hey, guys, here's what's going on. Here's what we need to do. Here's why. What do you guys think? And then you guys would take the opinions from guys, formulate a plan. I don't even recall the time that Seth or you ever was like, nope, this is what we're doing. I don't recall any time. But even if you had, because you guys had built relationships and the guys respected you, the guys would be like, cool. Roger that. Because you wouldn't just do it without explaining why. Like, hey, here's what we're doing. Here's why. I still want your guys insight. This is why we have to do it this way. And then you would still drive ownership to the guys.
- [140:12]
B
Yeah, yeah. People ask all the time, especially with the work we do with Echelon Front. Like, how do you get. How do you get your guys to take ownership? Right? Because people like, oh, I love this concept of extreme ownership. How do I get my guys to take more ownership? And the answer is that you give them ownership. Which sounds a little counterintuitive because most of the time we're talking about ownership. What we're talking about is we're talking about you. We're talking about the ownership you can take. How are you contributing to the problem? Your people aren't doing what you want them to do. How were you unclear in what the priorities were or setting your expectations or laying out the plan or what the desired end state was? How are you contributing to that problem? So it sounds a little counterintuitive for me now, say, well, how you get your people to take ownership is you give them ownership. But what we mean by that is, what we mean is we say, hey, rather than force feeding my plan down their throats, I ask them how they think we should accomplish. Especially if it's somebody like Benny who's got way more experience than I, hey, what do you think? And I say, hey, why don't you come up with the infill plan? And then it's like, great. It's their plan. They're naturally bought in. They naturally have ownership of that plan because it's their plan, not one I imposed upon them. Right. So, anyway, long story. Answer your question. Is the best thing you can do if you're in a new leadership role is seek the advice and input of those who have been there and done that before you?
- [141:37]
C
And then I got one more question.
- [141:39]
A
I have something to add to that from a different perspective. If you're in a position like Benny and you have a new leader, you should show them respect, and you shouldn't, because Benny was not arrogant.
- [141:53]
B
Not at all.
- [141:53]
A
He was very humble, very respectful, and he showed his leadership respect all the time. He showed his leadership respect all the time, was very professional, which allowed him to influence his leadership. So if you're on that other side, that's how you lead up the chain of command. And that's why we were able to do what we did in Tuscany Bruiser, because it was. It was reciprocal. It was always going back and forth, which is really cool.
- [142:19]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [142:20]
C
So my. My last one has to do with, you know, we. You mentioned a little bit about the guy who did some armchair quarterbacking. And over the last probably 12 to 18 months, the operations that SEALs did in the early 2000s and. And really even up to this day have. Have been something that a lot of people had questions about of, like, you know, the ops that historically that the SEALS and UTD guys did in Vietnam are not what we're seeing a lot of the seals doing today for one reason or another.
- [142:57]
B
Right.
- [142:57]
C
And one of them is quite clearly that the battlefield has changed dramatically from where we were in Vietnam to the wars that we're fighting now. That said when you guys get the initial call of, hey, task Unibruiser is going to be who we're sending over to Ramadi. This is what you're going to be doing is training Iraqi scouts.
- [143:21]
B
Right.
- [143:22]
C
When you guys hear what your orders are going to be, how do you, how do you receive those orders and then get your team on board saying, hey, listen, we're going to be doing something now that is unlike anything that historically, you know, that the seals have done. How do you get them on, on board with that and comfortable with that idea?
- [143:46]
B
Well, look, first of all, one of the missions of the SEAL teams has always been a FID mission, Foreign internal defense. So training partner nations to be able to execute their own operations as opposed to a unilateral operation. But what do the guys want to do? If you're a seal, you want to go do direct action, capture, kill missions. You want to jump out of planes on a halo, jump into a compound someplace and take out a terrorist. And I mean, like, that's like the big mesh, right?
- [144:14]
C
Yeah. Everything should be a Tom Clancy novel, right? Yeah.
- [144:18]
B
It's also unsustainable. And I can say that from a position of maturity now too, looking back. But at that young age, last thing I wanted to do was go train a bunch of Iraqi soldiers. That's not what I wanted to do. I want to go blow in a door, take a house down and grab IED manufacturers and ISIS leaders and at that time, Al Qaeda leaders. Right. Or al Qaeda operatives, stack bodies, whatever, you know. But at the same time, you are given an order from the top that says, like, this is what you're going to do. So you got a choice. You can either like push back, good luck. Right. Or you figure out how to operate within that. So you get to a level of acceptance. And then if you really are mature, you start to go, okay, well, like, well, why are they doing this? And you know, are they just trying to, like, ruin our fun? Like, what's the goal here? Well, the goal is, the goal is we don't keep doing missions and expending, you know, US time, talent and treasure in a foreign land for the next 100 years. The goal is we knock this thing down to a manageable level, turn this thing back over to the Iraqi people to have their own country. Now, as a 22 year old who all he wants to do is be like Charles Sheen and jump out of planes and blow things up, that doesn't sound like a really good plan. But you have to start to learn. That's the way it's going to be. And so if you want to operate. So this. This is how this went. All right, guys, you want to go outside the wire. You want to go operate. We got to take some Iraqi army guys with us, and that's kind of how we looked at it. We got to take them with us, right? All right. But then it's like, all right, listen, if I gotta drag these guys with me, I better make sure they can shoot. I better make sure that they can. They know where to go, or it's gonna be more of a liability than it already is. So it's like, all right, all right, I gotta take four, you guys with me. Then we're gonna go out and we're gonna practice. And then the other thing that for me was very interesting was you don't know where these guys are coming from. You don't know if any of these guys are embedded, you know, embeds from Al Qaeda. You know, if they're gonna. You're gonna take a round in the back of the head. You really don't know. You know, they've been. Have they been, you know, infiltrated in some way? Have their. Have their family been threatened? You know, you're gonna. So I remember I. I was fortunate that I got to work with a small group of Iraqi scouts. Like, I got to know them pretty well. And I remember sitting down one day and through an interpreter asking them, like, hey, so, like, why are you doing this? You know, trying to find out their motivations, you know? And I remember they all had very similar stories. This one guy said, so we were in Ramadi, which is an area in Anbar province, out to the western region of Iraq. He was actually from an area down in the south called Basra. And Basra is an area. So Saddam hussein was a Ba'ath Party leader. And when we were in the first Gulf war in the 90s, you know, we were like, hey, people of Iraq, stand up. Like, we're with you. And they stood up and they went to go rise up against Saddam Hussein. And we were like, seea, we're out of here. And Saddam Hussein inflicted massive retribution. And so you have the Sunnis and the Shia predominantly. The Sunnis predominantly to the west, and the Shia to the south. The Sunnis are more aligned with. With Saudi Arabia and the Shia with Iran. But this guy and his family was from Basra down in the south. And when we pulled out of Iraq in the 90s, Saddam went down there, and he literally bulldozed entire villages and cities. And this Guy, while he was out rising up against Saddam, he got home and he dug his dead wife and baby out of the rubble. So that's what he was fighting for. And I was like, yeah, you're good, right? This guy wasn't fighting for 50 bucks that week. He was fighting for his freedom. Many people, look, if you were a Sunni or Certainly in the Ba'ath party, you're good to go under Saddam Hussein. But if you were not, you were the oppressed people. This guy had been living in an oppressed life for many years. So he was happy that we were there. He was happy to see Saddam overthrown and was looking up here, right? So that's good. Now, if you're an old Ba'ath party guy, you're like, you see us as the imperial conquerors and ruining your way of life. And as it turns out, out there in Ramadi, that was where a lot of of his leadership had summer homes or where they were from. And so that's why it became such a stronghold. Those people, if you think about it, had everything to lose by Saddam coming out of power. They were upset that we were there because many of the houses out there were actually gorgeous homes. These were the wealthy people. These were the upper crust of the society. Don't think we didn't strategically bring the people from the south and the Shia out there to fight the Sunnis there and vice versa, Right? But that was part of the strategy. So this guy was not just simply conscripted. This guy and a couple of the other guys were. They were freedom fighters, man, for their own future. So I was fortunate that some of those guys, I didn't worry too much about them. When we got into some of the larger operations where we had maybe a couple hundred, like just sort of general Iraqi army infantry guys, dude. I mean, I was. I felt like I was. At any moment, you know, any one of those guys could have been an Al Qaeda operative just waiting for their moment to shoot me in the back of the head.
- [150:38]
A
But, yeah, and there. There was. That was a known fact also that was part of our in briefing was, hey, guys, beware.
- [150:46]
B
When we would go to the range. When we would go to the range, we would have a guy basically standing back, fully loaded and ready to go. Think about, you're taking a bunch of guys to the range. You don't know. We would have a guy who was basically off the line. And they didn't know this, but he was. He was there just in case somebody decided to like, oh, I'm gonna whip around here and Take this guy out. No. So, all right, so you asked me. So ultimately, we had to explain to the guys, you want to go outside the wire, you want to get after it? This is how you do it. We got to bring these guys with us. And by the way, unless you want your kids coming over here and fighting the same war, we have got to train these guys up, take their own country back. Otherwise, it's just going to be a game of whack a mole. And it's a hard sell at first. Some of the guys are like, this is dumb. Like, all right, then sit in your hooch and twiddle your thumbs. So we figured out how to get the guys what they wanted. This is how we get outside the wire. This is how we do it. And then, guess what? It wasn't that bad. We actually got to go do some work. We started to have some success, and that momentum built.
- [151:57]
C
That's awesome, man. I can't thank you enough for your service and for. For coming on the podcast, sharing these stories. It's been. It's been awesome getting to. Getting to chat with you.
- [152:07]
B
All right. Yeah, thanks, man.
- [152:09]
A
I love it.
- [152:12]
C
All right, well, we may need an episode just to debrief all of what I got out of this episode.
- [152:19]
A
Yeah, let's do it. Before we close it out, Andrew Lucas and I are going to go through a few things. He's talking about some of the companies that support us and how our listeners can support us by supporting them. But, you know, at the end, I'm going to have you just kind of just share if you have something you want to leave with our listeners, you know, a piece of advice that can just help them win in life, whether it's a marriage, business, you know, struggling with sobriety, you know, all the ups and downs that life throws at us. If, you know, if you have something for our listeners, I'll have you share that right before I close it out. But. But again, I echo what Lucas said. Thank you for being here. A lot of incredible takeaways, and I'm just very thankful that we're able to make this a priority. And I know you're sacrificing sleep to be able to make this happen. Lucas, you as well.
- [153:09]
B
Sacrificing what?
- [153:10]
A
Yeah, you guys.
- [153:13]
B
You sleep?
- [153:13]
A
Yeah, sometimes.
- [153:15]
C
It's one of the side effects of his bicep surgery is sleep.
- [153:20]
B
Yeah.
- [153:21]
C
Well, thank you guys for watching, for listening, for subscribing, commenting. Y' all are the reason that we do this podcast. If you want to be part of the conversation, Go check out @jpdonelle podcast on Instagram. You can check out jpdonelle two n's, two l's. I'm @LucasPinkard. Andrew is at the Andrew M. Paul. If you want to get on the path with some nutrition stuff, go check out firstinnutrition.com jppault pod. And the folks at first in Nutrition, we love them, Jonathan and Amy, because they're on the path with the Echelon front stuff. If you want JP or if you want Andrew to come and to work with your company, go check out echelonfront.com now. We just finished up muster 23. We've got 24 coming up in Nashville. When did tickets for that go on sale? They're getting ready to go. We're already selling tickets.
- [154:11]
A
Yeah, I just got the email that, you know, like we all do the OPS update and there's already a good amount of tickets sold for Nashville. That's April 2026. And then I believe July time frame is San Diego and then October is.
- [154:24]
C
A terrible place to go visit.
- [154:25]
A
San Diego is going to be back in Denver, Colorado.
- [154:28]
C
Right on. So, yeah, yeah. So the muster calendar for 26 is already up there. There's some individual FTX stuff if you want to also get on board. You're like, maybe you want to just check out the Echelon front stuff. Maybe you've got the books. You've got extreme ownership.com of leadership, the need to Lead by Dave Burke, which still just every time the Top Gun theme just pops into my head. Every time I just say the title of the book and you're like, you know what? I think I'm ready to take next steps in implementing this. Go check out the Extreme Ownership Academy online. There are group calls that you can get in on Monday afternoons. There are also a lot of courses. There's a couple of free courses. You can do an assessment, figure out where your big strengths, weaknesses, opportunities are for you as an individual and for your organization. But also you want to learn how to implement this stuff. There's a course for implementing extreme Ownership. You want to figure out how to do extreme ownership in the household. There's a course for extreme ownership in the household. All kinds of wonderful resources that are out there. So go check out that online academy. Now. If you've been listening to the podcast any amount of time, you know that we do stuff with Jesus and Jiu Jitsu, Littlecattle Co on the path printing are some of the companies that we work with, JP works with that have Done some amazing stuff and been huge supporters of us. Links to all of those are in the show notes. But you know what you say Echelon front. That's. I got all the stuff. Now I really want to figure out what's it like to work with jp, with Leif, with Jocko to have the same kind of gear or maybe updated versions of what the guys had in Ramadi. Go check out Bruiser Arms. They put together custom gear packages. They have custom training that's curated for your skill level where you can become the defender of your home that you want to be, but also just have the skill sets to where you have confidence in just whatever situation you may find yourself in. Go check outruiserarms. And as always, Andrew mentioned sleep. We don't get enough of it. Or maybe we do. I don't know. We'll. We'll have. I'll have Jocko. I'll personally tell Jocko to text Andrew Huberman my sleep schedule and see whether or not he, he believes I get enough sleep. You think it's a possibility for me, Jeremiah?
- [156:34]
A
Yeah, big possibility.
- [156:36]
C
So in the meantime, what we've got fueling us tonight is the Jocko fuel, the discipline Go drinks. I think Andrew's putting the, the lemon lime. I've had the black cherry vanilla. We've also got the Jocko hydrate. Right. Ready to drink stuff. They've got ready to drink protein shakes. If you haven't gone to jockofuel.com signed up for the text messages and the emails, there's all kinds of deals that they've been doing over the holidays. Also for the deaf reset coming up on January 1st. Make sure that you get signed up for that. There's a lot of benefits for people who are part of that group and new products that are coming out that you will get first on when you do go to jockofield.com purchase those products, use code JP Pod 20 will save you 20%. And as always, a shout out to our friends over at Origin Maine. So go to OriginUSA.com all American made stuff from the seed to the shirt and most of it is shipped usps. So they're keeping everything as much as they can in the country. I had to figure out how to, how to route everything properly to our P.O. box because they're doing it. But it's, it's awesome. We took advantage of some of their, their Black Friday sales. I got some seconds, right. So it's got the little like punch and the patch. One of them had a snag and the other one was instead of it. It's not that everybody wants to know this but you know, I'm a 32, 30. Waste is slimming down a little bit. Thanks Jonathan Montgomery. But they were, they were 32, 31 and that was the, that was the thing. I got an extra inch of material for a discount. So there you go. So make sure you go support what.
- [158:12]
B
They'Re doing who's not looking for an extra inch.
- [158:14]
C
Yeah, 100%, absolutely. That's.
- [158:19]
A
It'S really important when you're wearing boots in the winter time. Yes. So you know you don't have high water pants. That's what Andrew.
- [158:25]
C
100%.
- [158:26]
B
Yep.
- [158:26]
C
Definitely.
- [158:29]
A
Andrew. Closing thoughts?
- [158:36]
B
Well, somebody just asked me this the other day and you know, talking about losing guys and dealing with that and just challenges of life and how do you kind of keep going? So a couple things. First of all, it's not easy, I hope, I mean I've been going through some stuff lately personally. So one of the things I want to say is that I hope that I have not in any way given anybody the impression that oh yeah, just keep going. Like man, I struggle. I have had numerous times in my life where I have just frickin gone way down and had to figure out how to pull up out of that. And so nobody is up all the time. Nobody's got it all figured out. This day and age of social media, you see other people, you, you think they're just riding high all the time and nobody is, I'm telling you, nobody is. And least of all me. Again, I've been dealing with some personal stuff lately. You heard a little bit about it today. Just my transition from active duty before that, losing friends in combat challenges all the time. How do I get through that? Not perfectly. It's a fight, it truly is a battle. A couple things. One, if you're going to quit, quit tomorrow. So not today. All right? So just make it just go one more day. Okay. Take one more step, just take one more. That's number one. Number two, and this to me is the most powerful thing that I think I've learned in my life and that is that we will often do things for other people that we will not even do for ourselves. So if you really want to harness something powerful, think about what you're doing and how it actually can help and serve somebody else. There's something so powerful about when you start focusing on the challenges, the struggles or the problems that somebody else is going through and what you can do to help them. When you start focusing on how you can help somebody else, how you can serve them, how you can make a difference in their life. You stop focusing on yourself. You stop focusing on the challenges and the struggles that you have. And it doesn't mean that your problems don't still exist, but your mental state starts to change. And so I struggled immensely, numerous times. But one of the times I struggled immensely was when I left active duty, right? I left this job I had always wanted to do. Strong purpose and passion behind that work and a strong brotherhood and meaningful work then was doing 30 year fixed mortgages. How do you go from that to doing 30 year fixed mortgages? I mean, how do you get excited about that? It's pretty boring administrative work. And what I found was that I found a new purpose and a new passion in being able to help my fellow veterans. 90% of what I do in the mortgage business is VA loans. And so I just developed this mindset of man, if a veteran goes down the street, there's no way they're getting a better deal. If they go to somebody else, there's no way they're going to get better information, better advice, better support. I have fought for my fellow veterans on the battlefield and now I will fight for them in the business world by making sure they get the right information so they can make informed decisions, put them on a solid foundation financially when they go and buy their first house or their sixth house. So the trick was in my brain was to find purpose in serving someone else. So I don't know what that is for you. Maybe you're a schoolteacher. You come in and you got to realize what might seem like. You've got some kids who are yelling and screaming and you might be dealing with some silly administrative things. You have such a unique opportunity to shape young kids like Clay to have such an impact on who they can become in the future. That's just one example of finding the purpose in the work and how it serves someone else. That's it. That's the best piece of advice. Go serve someone else.
- [163:25]
A
Thank you, Andrew. If you were listening on the day this was released, we hope that you had an awesome Christmas yesterday. And I just want to thank all of our listeners again. Thank you, Andrew, for coming out. I hope this episode has been a reminder for all of us to go do the work that's needed to put in the effort to build your legacy and to never settle. This has been the JP Donnell podcast, episode 118.