Choosing the Right Person for the Mission | The Hard Truth About Seniority | JP Dinnell Podcast 104

Summary

JP Dinnell Podcast 104

Choosing the Right Person for the Mission | The Hard Truth About Seniority

Date: September 19, 2025
Hosts: JP Dinnell & Lucas Pinckard

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Episode Overview

This episode explores one of the central challenges in leadership: how to select the right personnel for high-risk or high-visibility missions, regardless of seniority. JP leverages his extensive SEAL experience and his work with organizations like Echelon Front to break down the difference between seniority and capability, the importance of training and debriefs, and how to build a culture where merit—not tenure—dictates who gets key tasks. The conversation also dives into how to manage egos, foster healthy competition, and collaborate across agencies or companies when interests and proprietary concerns are at play.

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Key Discussion Points

1. Age, Adaptation, and Skill Building

• Context: JP recounts a recent workshop with Austin PD executive leadership—all veterans with 20-30+ years of experience ([01:03]).
• Leaders discussed learning new skills later in their careers and fostering adaptability.
• JP notes, “Not one person complained about the new generation”—all had positive mindsets focused on growth ([01:31]).

2. When Seniority Isn't the Deciding Factor

• Lucas asks: "How do you choose the right personnel to handle difficult situations... when you know it has the potential to go really, really bad?" ([06:18])
• JP responds: For high-risk, high-profile operations, pick “my most senior experienced individuals” ([06:38]), but stresses:

  “The best qualified people might not be the senior people. … It’s the best qualified people. Not because of seniority or any other factors.” ([09:34])

• For training, use controlled, low-risk environments for junior members to learn and fail safely.

3. Debriefs: The Secret Sauce for Growth

• JP emphasizes the critical role of post-action debriefs for teaching lessons to the entire team:

  “Debriefs facilitate and expedite growth.” ([09:04])

• Even those who aren’t in the action learn from detailed breakdowns, leveraging footage and after-action reports ([11:50]).

4. How to Lead Around Ego and Seniority

• Lucas raises a tough scenario: How do you coach a senior member who is passed over for a mission in favor of a less-senior but more qualified team member? ([13:17])
• JP: Make it a matter of culture, not a one-off event—regularly communicate that roles are based on performance and qualification:

  “Culture is the ultimate form of decentralized command.” ([14:27])

• Build relationships so “you can do these things and have these conversations without creating friction” ([16:02]).
• Always explain the why behind team assignments and keep everyone engaged in roles that matter, even if they aren’t leading the charge.

5. Creating a Legacy Through Experience Transfer

• Sometimes you choose the less-senior but capable person for growth—giving them crucial experience, with seniors providing support ([22:09]).
• JP: The SEAL teams practice this, seeing it as “a legacy play” ([22:54]), where senior members sometimes take a back seat for the next wave.

6. Mindset and Training: What Sets the Best Apart

• Story of Jesse Rembert, former Green Beret & Denver SWAT, whose unit sets itself apart by its training-first mindset ([23:15]).
• Even with limited resources, training is prioritized. JP shares SEAL Teams’ ingenuity during budget crunches to maintain proficiency ([25:39]).
• Training empowers leaders to confidently choose the right person for the mission ([26:30]).

7. Interdepartmental and Interagency Collaboration

• Moving from law enforcement to business, Lucas asks how to avoid jurisdictional struggles and petty ego battles when multiple agencies or companies are involved ([27:34], [32:09]).
• JP: Build relationships proactively, approach with humility, and create a sense of shared purpose:

  “Some of us want to win so bad that we’re willing to lose so our egos can win, which is crazy.” ([29:38])

• Practical advice: Get stakeholders in the same room, invest in face-to-face relationship building, and set mutual expectations ([33:11]).

8. Business Negotiation Lessons

• Situation: Two companies must collaborate on a project, but both fear giving away proprietary info ([31:32]).
• JP: Initiate trust by being the first to extend it—visit in person, ask about concerns, and propose solutions ([35:00]).

  “If I want somebody to trust me, what do I have to give them first? Trust. … I’m going to show them respect” ([35:22]).

• Set expectations, outline mutual benefits, and cast a long-term vision for partnership ([39:56]).

9. The Ripple Effect – Culture & Decentralized Command

• “Picking the right person for the task … may not be the senior most person … Whenever you give everybody an opportunity to be involved… you create this ultimate culture of decentralized command, a culture of humility” ([41:44]).

10. Final Thoughts on Training and Leadership

• JP closes with:

  “Part of being a good leader is training. You have to train yourself. You have to train your people. … When you can train and empower and equip your people, it gives you a little more comfort as a leader because you know that they’re capable and that can help you not micromanage.” ([48:34])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On picking the right person:

  “The best qualified people might not be the senior people. ... I'm going to use the debrief as an opportunity to train up, to equip, and get everybody else thinking...” — JP, [09:34]

• On debriefing:

  “Debriefs facilitate and expedite growth.” — JP, [09:04]

• On culture vs. ego:

  “Culture is the ultimate form of decentralized command.” — JP, [14:27]
  “Some of us want to win so bad that we're willing to lose so that our egos can win, which is crazy.” — JP, [29:38]

• On relationship building in business:

  “If I want somebody to trust me, what do I have to give them first? Trust. ... I'm going to show them respect. I'm going to listen…” — JP, [35:22]

• On legacy and experience transfer:

  “We would see that a lot in the teams ... senior guys ... would take the back seat or ... let the other guys drive, as they would say, to gain that experience. ... We would look at it as a legacy play.” — JP, [22:51]

• On training culture:

  “Making it happen—when you make training a high priority, you’re preparing your people, but it also gives you, as a leader, confidence in who you can pick.” — JP, [25:39]

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Timestamps of Important Segments

• [01:03] — Austin PD workshop: Lessons, mindset, and experience.
• [06:18] — How to pick the right personnel for high-stakes, risky operations.
• [09:04] — The critical role of debriefing.
• [14:27] — Culture as decentralized command; handling ego when senior folks aren’t picked.
• [22:03] — Deciding between a senior, highly skilled person and a less-senior, capable one.
• [23:15] — Example of high-performance mindset from Green Beret/SWAT operator.
• [27:34] — Interdepartmental challenges; lessons from military/law enforcement collaboration.
• [31:32] — Business scenario: Two proprietary companies forced to collaborate.
• [35:00] — Building trust in business partnerships.
• [39:56] — Casting long-term vision and mutual benefits in partnerships.
• [41:44] — Summarizing the ripple effect of team culture in leadership.
• [48:34] — JP’s closing thoughts on training and leadership comfort.

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Episode Takeaways

• Pick based on capability, not just tenure
  • Seniority doesn’t always mean best for the job. Qualified, capable people should get key tasks, with others learning through observation and debrief.
• Debriefs and training are non-negotiable for growth
  • Use every operation as a training tool by thorough debriefs.
• Strong culture enables healthy competition and decentralized command
  • Communicate standards and expectations clearly and frequently.
• Battle ego with relationship-building and explanation
  • Having honest conversations and maintaining strong relationships allow you to make tough personnel calls without unnecessary friction.
• Legacy-minded leadership lifts everyone
  • Sometimes giving someone else the chance to lead is the most impactful leadership move.
• Relational intelligence in business and agencies matters
  • Trust and communication—not just rules and NDAs—are vital for cross-organizational success.

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Final Quote

“Invest into training your people, equip them, and let them lead. … Put in the effort to build your legacy and to never settle.”
— JP Dinnell, [48:34]

Transcript

[A]

Good morning. This is the JP Donnell podcast, episode 104. I am JP Donnell, and as always, I have Lucas with me. What's up, buddy?

[B]

What's going on, man? I'm. I did in fact find Biz. Markey was an alien in men in Black 2, and he was working in a post office and he starts beatboxing to communicate with other aliens and. Well, no, he beatboxes to communicate with Will Smith's character and then Will Smith beat boxes back to him in communication. This is an off air conversation that now has made it into the podcast. Also use code JP Pod20 to save 20% on Choco fuel supplements here. I wanted to make it relevant for our listeners. There you go.

[A]

Yeah, that's. Would you call that foreshadowing?

[B]

Yeah, probably.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

That's weird.

[B]

That is. But I am trying to get Levi to learn how to beat bucks because I think I'm past the age in which I could learn a skill like that. I think my lips are too rigid.

[A]

You know, it's funny, yesterday I was doing a full day workshop with Austin PD and it was always with like the senior executive leaders and all the bunch of different agencies in, I guess, within Austin county that were invited to it. It was awesome. The person that had the least amount of years of experience was the guy with 19 years. And he was like almost at 20 years.

[B]

Oh, good grief.

[A]

Yeah, Everybody in that room was 20 plus, 30 plus years of law enforcement as a public servant. And it was incredible. And you know, we were just talking about the different skill sets that they've learned over the years and as leaders, how their skill sets have grown and what they're trying to instill to their people at a young age. And you know, the new recruits, the new generation, and I will say it was really cool. Not one person complained about the new generation. That's pretty rad. Like, not one person made that comment. Or back. Oh, this new generation, they all had really good attitudes towards it. And we were talking about skill sets and one of the guys was talking about, you know, trying to learn new things at an older. At an older age can be difficult. We were talking about innovate and adapt and changing ways and whatnot. We. We were talking on a break and it was a really good conversation. And the reason why I'm brought that up is because you just said, like, I think I'm too old to like, yeah, that beatbox skill. And I mean, joking aside, we were talking about Beatbox and what these guys are able to do is just, it's unreal. It's almost unreal. Most of the time when I'm watching those videos, I actually don't believe that it's a person. I'm like, okay, this is like computer generated. Like, there's no way that is one.

[B]

Human can do that. Yeah, yeah, it's weird. And then like when they do the weird stuff, like they hit themselves in the throat to try to make things happen, I'm like, nah, that's just. I can't imagine voluntarily throat chopping myself.

[A]

And it's impressive if you think like how many hours of just non stop obsessive training they've done to teach their body to, to be able to do that. I don't. But then again, it's like I say that and I'm not saying it in a negative way towards them. To me I'm just like, that's crazy. But then again, you look at somebody like Farmiga, who just won double gold at Master Worlds and Now he's a 13 time world champion, 14 time Pan American champion, Brazilian national champion, has over 400 gold medals, I believe, competing just as a black belt. And people would look at him the same way and be like, yeah, and.

[B]

For him, he's gonna be on the mats.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Like in, in order to train. Whereas, like, if you were beatboxing, you could do it anywhere. You could actually do it while you were. Can you imagine if you're trying to choke somebody out? They're like.

[A]

That would. Yeah, that would be a little weird. Stop it. I would be really frustrated.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, that I was getting choked out as a person was beatboxing.

[B]

But if you, if you didn't like what they were doing, then you could, you could make it stop. If you had the skill set to do it. Like, yeah, I'm tired of you beatboxing. Here you go.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So a legit question that I have.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Though it might not sound that way. I'm gonna preface it with that. Did you ask the, the people down at Austin PD about their interactions with the Liver King? That come up at all?

[A]

I did not.

[B]

You didn't see?

[A]

I would, I didn't even think about that. I don't.

[B]

I mean, I was just. I would just be curious because, I mean, say that.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Like, just simply because of the amount of social media management they likely had to do with, with all of that. Like, you know what's happening. How do you, how do you know who to send to that situation? Because you know that it's happening, right? There's a, there's a situation that you know is escalating. You've seen the escalation happen for a long time. You know that it's coming to your city, then it shows up. And now, now you have to make sure that you're choosing the right personnel in order to handle a situation that you know is going to be on camera. You know that it's going to happen in a way that it shows it to hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people across all, all different kinds of social media platforms. Which brings us to one of the first questions that we've got for today's Q and A is how do you choose the right personnel to handle difficult situations? Because in each kind of difficult situation that we have, there may be people that have specific skill sets in order to do it. They're going to be people who you want to do it so that others can observe them doing it. And there are other situations that you know, you know, because they are a situation like what the Austin PD encountered and, and what Travis County Sheriff's Department encountered with this very public situation that they knew was coming to their area. And I'm sure they had people on it and monitoring it the entire time that, you know, hey, whatever we do, the world is about to see how well we handle this. So what, what do you do whenever you're selecting personnel to handle these kind of situations that you see it coming? You know, it has the potential to go really, really bad. How do you pick the right people?

[A]

I mean, I think in that situation, based off of what you just said, you know, it has potential to go really, really bad.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And it can have a massive impact to your organization. This is not the training opportunity for like a younger, newer individual on the team. This is cool. I'm picking my most senior experienced individuals to handle this task at hand. When we talk about training up people and we know that scenario based stress induced on the job, hands on type of training is the best for growth. You're doing that in an environment, environment where the risk is low. You know, one of the things that Cody says at echelon front, hey, the risk for you screwing something up at an FTX is zero.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

There's other than your ego unless you're.

[B]

You're trying to jump a creek with a camera.

[A]

Yeah. And then even then your risk is still low compared to like, like what could actually happen or big issues. But yeah, when you tried to jump the creek with a camera, you know, maybe get wet, maybe you trip, maybe you know you're hurt, maybe Maybe you.

[B]

Straighten your leg out when you land is not.

[A]

Not ideal. Yeah.

[B]

In front of your friend slash podcasting partner.

[A]

Yeah. And so, yeah, I mean, putting people in situations where they can fail in a controlled environment is really important. That's a part of training. Now when it comes to, like, a real life operation, for lack of better term, I'm going to put my best people in that spot to win. And you can still train up your other people that were a part of it, you know, so let's say you identify a few key officers to go handle the Liver King thing. Well, there's going to be other officers there supporting.

[C]

Right.

[A]

And that's why debriefs facilitate and expedite growth. Because. Okay, say I send out, you know, three of my officers to be the primary points of contact for this issue with Liver King. I don't even like saying his name. Dude, I can't outstand that guy.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

But anyway, with this particular purpose.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

With this delusional human being.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

I'm gonna have other officers there.

[C]

Right.

[A]

I would assume that they had other officers there. Yeah, that's just. Yeah.

[B]

Kind of a. An inner departmental thing, which will be kind of part two of the question. But let's, let's wrap with it.

[A]

Yeah. So the. There's going to be multiple people there, and that's why after an event, you want to sit and talk and debrief things, because debriefs facilitate and expedite growth. And so if I was in that position, that's what I would do. If it's a big profile thing that could have potential, like, major negative impact if we don't handle it the right way, I'm sending my best qualified people, hands down. And the best qualified people might not be the senior people.

[B]

That's true.

[A]

It's the best qualified people. Not because of seniority or any other factors. It's the best qualified people. And then I'm going to use the debrief as an opportunity to train up, to equip and get everybody else thinking about, okay, hey, when these things happen, here's the things that we need to be doing. Hey, look, you know, Officer Williams did this, and he handled it very well. And, hey, Officer Bates did this, and they handled it very well.

[C]

Right.

[A]

Hey, you know, we had a close call over here with this officer, but hey, you know, we. We caught it. We fixed it. Let's digest that. Let's. Let's break it down. Let's see what happened. What can we do moving forward to eliminate that Risk from developing.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And what do we do to be able to take control to where we're dictating the situation? We don't want the situation to dictate what we do. We go in and we dictate the situation. So using that debrief as a tool to train them up so that when those other people do move into those positions, they're equipped in the future. But I'm not playing around and being like, all right, you know, hey, like, new guy, like, we're gonna see how you handle this one. No, that's not the time.

[B]

Yeah, that's a bad idea. Yeah. So with. With a situation like that, and particularly when we look at situations with first responders particular, in particular law enforcement, we know that we've got several different angles from which a debrief is going to happen. Right. Because they've got body cams, they've got dash cameras, you have whatever other bystanders footage that they take on social media and things like this. And, you know, if. If our. Our audience will remember back to an episode where we talked with Eric Grogan about the. The McKinney pool incident, like, that was one of the things that they had tons and tons of cell phone footage from people, and they got to piece together everything from the debrief there. So one of the benefits to sending your most senior people from a training perspective is that if you're in one of those situations where you're going to have a lot of footage captured.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You can do the debrief and the training based off of the footage without having to stick somebody in that scenario. And now all of a sudden, you've got the scenarios to role play from.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And having, hey, you know what? You're going to be this. This madman who's trying to. To start a fight with, you know, a podcasting personality. And now you three guys are going to play the part of the officers that are trying to de escalate. Let's see how you would handle it.

[A]

Yeah, we would do similar things like that. In the teams where, you know, guys are creating scenarios based off of what they saw overseas and what they were a part of to prepare guys for it. We were sending debrief points and after action reports back, not. You know, I talked about this yesterday because one of the questions came up was, what's your format for debrief? And this officer is working through restructuring it and. Or, like, actually creating it for their group. And, you know, we talked through that, and I explained to them, like, not only did we send out our AARs after action reports to all the other people in country. We also would send them back to San Diego to the training command so that they could alter the training to better prepare the guys that were coming to replace us. So yeah, to your point, law enforcement actually has some really good opportunities to create some incredible scenario based training and leadership training based off of all the footage and all the reports and all the different things that they have.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So I guess the next thing, in kind of this line of questioning before we get to working with other agencies, because on something like this that happens and in life it happens with different departments and those kinds of things. So we'll table that for just a second. One of the things you said was that you have to make sure that you're sending your best people, not necessarily your most senior. And when you do something like that, you are inevitably going to poke the ego of someone up the chain of. Or that's, you know, in the chain of command. Right. How do you use this as an opportunity to mentor and lead that person who maybe they are more senior. And this, in this scenario, they are more senior, they're a more senior person. They have trained the guy that you're sending out. And how do you use this now as a leadership opportunity to go to them, to explain to them, hey, this is why we did it and to keep them.

[A]

I mean, I think that has to be a part of your culture.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And that has to.

[B]

Yeah, because culture supersedes everything.

[A]

Yeah, well, culture, culture is the ultimate form of decentralized command. Culture is the ultimate form of decentralized command.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So if this is a part of your culture of like, hey guys, we send the best qualified, not the most senior, but the best qualified to do these jobs, you're naturally going to have a culture of healthy competition. Now there could be some unhealthy competition for sure. We know that exists all the time. But let's give, let's give our team the benefit of the doubt and say, okay, this is going to turn into healthy competition. And so people have to understand that things are going to be determined based off of performance. If you're performing better than the rest, like you're going to go get that work, you're going to get those jobs a hundred percent. It was the same thing in the SEAL team, same thing in the military. You're going to pick the best qualified unit or group or team or individual to go do something based off of their performance and their abilities. That has to just be a part of your Culture. When I say, when I say that it has to be something that you're talking about. It isn't just like a one time thing. Like, this is something we talk about. And so if I was in that leadership position, picking the best quality, qualified guys to go handle the thing, and I had some senior guys as I'm briefing the group, I'm gonna handle it in a professional, polite manner, obviously, because they're my team and I care about them and I love them. And the other thing that I want to throw in here real quick is if you have a really good relationship with your people, you can do these things and have these conversations without creating friction.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, like if Jocko and Leif were to tell me like, hey, buddy, you know, we're kind of shifting some things, Cody's better qualified to do this. We need you over here doing this. I would be like, all right, cool. Now would I reflect and be like, dang, like, okay, I missed the mark over here and I haven't been doing these things properly. Yeah. I would do an assessment and you know, Jocko, life would probably like sit down with me and break that down. But because I have such a good relationship with Jocko and life, not to mention Cody, like, right. Let's just like, let's not even put that into the calculus. Because if you put the calculus of the relationship that I have with Cody, Jocko and Leif, I'm like, all right, cool, whatever you guys want. Like this. All right, awesome. But if that wasn't the case and it was just a good relationship with Jocko and Leif, I'm going to be receptive to their feedback, to their criticisms and to their decisions and choices.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So when you're in a leadership position, you have to make sure that you have a phenomenal working relationship with everybody on your team that allows you in these situations, say, hey, guys, for this, for this job, I'm picking boom, boom, boom, boom. The reason why I'm picking them is because they are best qualified for this task at hand. There are other jobs and missions that we will have that it will be other. Pick other picks based off of qualifications and the ability to perform the tasks at hand. If you have any questions, let me know now or pull me aside separately, we can talk through this. But for the time being, here's what we're doing, here's why. I want you guys to figure out how to execute that.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And so I'm giving the why of what we're doing and letting them create the plan. But Also, those other people are still going to be a part of it.

[C]

Right.

[A]

It's not like I'm just going to be like, hey, Lucas, hey, while all these guys are doing all this stuff, you're going to be sitting back here in the office like, that's not going to happen. Yeah, all my guys are going to be a part of it somehow. Whether it's helping, training, preparing, prepping, support, you know, secondary role, tertiary role, you know, whatever it is. Like people are all still a part of the mission. When you're a new guy and we're going in and conducting capture, kill missions overseas, you know, you have the assault force and then you have this outside external security force. Guess where most new guys stay?

[B]

The external security force.

[C]

Yeah. Why?

[B]

Because you don't want them on the assault.

[A]

Because we're not as good as the other guys that have the experience.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Now what they'll do is they'll slowly start rotating you in. And I remember, I remember the first time I was like, all right, man, hey, you're gonna be a part of the salt for. I'm like, yes. You know what I mean? I have to stay outside, man. The 50 cal, which is still pretty awesome.

[B]

I mean, it's not a bad game.

[A]

You know, when you're, you know, manning the 50 cal machine gun. Yeah, it's not a bad thing, but you don't want to be the blocking force. You want to be. You want to be force.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Until they're getting after it on the outside and then, yeah, guys are on the inside doing nothing, clearing like an empty building. And guys on the outsiders, like, like there's like two sides of a coin. And, and that's the other part that you have to explain to your guys and gals is, hey, your role is very important. Yeah, you're not the primary assault team or you're not the primary handlers for this mission, but this is how important your job is. And it just, it comes down to really good communication with your people and understanding roles and responsibilities and expectations and standards. And I think a lot of leaders fail to regularly communicate these things with their people. Here's the standards, here's the expectations, here's roles and responsibilities. And when you don't do that, people just kind of get into their own groove and kind of do their own thing. And then they just assume that they should be a part of stuff. And it's like, well, if you're not doing these things, if you're not performing at a high level, if you're not capable Then it's a disservice to the team and the mission by putting you in that position.

[B]

Yeah, I do think, like, ultimately what you want is for that senior guy to look at the younger guy and say, hey, man, you're getting your shot. I'm. I'm here if you need me.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Like, that's. That's ultimately, like, that's what you. What you want. Even if it is at the expense of. I say the expense of. Even if it means that they're not the ones that are going into the fray.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When they want to. That. You know, when you talk about culture being the ultimate form of decentralized command, that's. That's what it is. And if that's the attitude that you have when you see that younger guy or that less senior guy, even if it's not a younger guy, maybe the person that you trained, and now they're getting the opportunity to do something and you are not, you having that attitude is only going to show your senior leadership how much of a team player you are and are willing to be and increase your value within the organization 100%.

[A]

And there's also another calculus to this that I was just thinking about, or I should say just popped up as I was thinking about. What we're talking about is, let's say I'm more senior to you and much more qualified than you, but you are capable to do this job based off of your qualifications and your skill sets and your abilities. Now, who do you pick?

[B]

I'm. Okay, I'm more senior.

[A]

No, no, no.

[B]

Okay, I'm less senior.

[A]

Okay. I am more senior to you. So for this situation, okay, let's just pick two. Two of our buddies names. So we're not playing that. Oh, wait, me? You?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Gotcha. All right, so Josh is more senior and skilled than Isaac.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Okay. Isaac is skilled enough and capable enough to do the job and get it done at the level of which it needs to be done. But Josh is more senior, slightly more skilled. Isaac is skilled enough to do the job and do the work and execute at the level of what you need it.

[B]

Who do you pick in that scenario? I'm probably picking Isaac.

[A]

Why?

[C]

Because.

[B]

I need Isaac to have the experience. Josh probably has the experience already, but I need Isaac to be out there to have the experience. And I'm probably also sending Josh as support. They're like, hey, man, if this starts to go sideways or if it looks like he's not handling the situation, I need you to come in and step up.

[A]

Yeah. So we would see that a lot in the teams also, really, where senior guys that were definitely more skilled, had more time, would, as they say, take the back seat or take the right seat and let the other guys drive, as they would say, to gain that experience.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Because we would look at it as a legacy play.

[B]

100%.

[A]

Yeah. And so that's a different scenario. Right. They're both skilled, one's more senior. Hey, if you can drive that ownership down, take every opportunity that you can. And I know, like my buddy Jesse who helps out, you know, Jesse Rembert.

[B]

Yeah. Mastodon Jesse. Yes.

[A]

Former Green Beret. Freaking full time Denver SWAT was a part of the anti gang unit. I mean, the dude's just freaking unreal. His, his stories, his life, everything he's done, him and his guys train at an unreal level. It's a way PD should be training. Now, I know that. I know not every department has that ability in the funds, but it's the mindset. If, if, if police departments across this nation had the same type of mindset that Jesse and his guys had in regards to training, take away budget and all that other stuff. But if they just had that same mindset, dude, it would be a game changer. And I know there's a lot of departments similar. I just don't know them and.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, there's a few of them that are popping in my brain from different buddies and I'm. I'm not saying their name. And I apologize if I, you know, if you even listen to this. Nerds.

[B]

No kidding.

[A]

But the way Jesse and his guys operate, it's just at a completely different level. And it's because their training mindset. And the reason why I'm saying that is because they train so hard. Jesse is in a leadership position and he is so confident in his guys. Sorry. Jesse is so confident in his guys that when they go on these call outs and they go do these different missions, most of the time he's not having to say much.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's the goal, is to be that silent leader. And when I hear these stories that Jesse shares of these calls that these guys have, like barricaded shooters and dude, you know, as they went through the entry of a door, the dude had a knife and was trying to like stab him in the neck and he grabbed it and they're fighting over the knife and there's a guy with a guy, you know, all this stuff going on. The dude bit through his pants.

[B]

Whoa.

[A]

And it's not just like regular jeans or yeah, like, you know, the heavy duty cry.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Combat pants. Dude bit through those.

[C]

Wow.

[A]

That's how high on drugs this dude was, bro.

[B]

It's like a canine bite. Yeah, that's intense, dude.

[A]

So Jesse actually has a. I'm sure that's the story he'll share when he comes on the podcast. He got the clearance be able to come on the podcast and everything. But, you know, I hear all these crazy stories from what these guys are dealing with in these big cities where, you know, marijuana is legal in the state, and everyone's like, oh, that's a great thing. You're like, no, it's not.

[B]

Not for everybody.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

But, you know, Jesse's able to do what he does because they train hard. And so that's why I went. That's why I brought this conversation to Jesse, is you can make those decisions by putting the right people in the right place. If you're training, if you're training hard, if you're intentional with finding ways to train, you know, you can make excuses or you can make things happen. You can't do both. There was a time in the SEAL teams that the funding was very, very, very limited. And, you know, the older guys would talk about it, and in order for them to practice mag changes, they would only put a couple rounds in each magazine. They didn't even have the ability to do full mags on the shooting range, but they knew the mag changes were important, and so that's what they would do. Again, making it happen, when you make priority, when you make training a high priority, you're preparing your people, but it also gives you, as a leader, confidence in who you can pick for what they do. Yeah, because now you know their skill sets, you know their capabilities, you know they're going to perform at a high level. Um, and so I think that is something a lot of leaders also fail to do, is they don't do enough training. Now, in a corporate environment, you can still train. You can do role plays, you can create custom scenarios based off the business, and that's how you can help your people over. Overcome objectives and. And do all those things.

[B]

So, yeah, so the. The next thing, like, all right, I've got my people in place. I've picked everything. I've made sure that all of my team members have a role, that they understand their role. We've done some. I wouldn't say ego massaging, but we've. We've made sure that everybody understands that the. The places that we've put them were to elevate the Team overall.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And we've got alignment with all of that stuff. So then I get on, I get on site and, you know, we've. I think we've all seen the movie scenario where this plays out or the television show where like the local PD shows up and then all of a sudden the FBI guy up and he's like, you don't have jurisdiction here. This is ours. And then all that work is like put in. Right. So like that I'm sure, like in some areas that plays out. I know from reading Extreme Ownership that certainly there were opportunities when Task unit Bruiser could have done that, but instead you guys chose to go to the people who were in charge of the battle space and said, hey, can we, how can we support you?

[A]

Yeah, it's usually a good idea to have a good relationship with the people that own the battle space.

[B]

Like 100%.

[A]

Just saying.

[B]

So. Yeah. And in every one of those television shows we see pretty quickly that the local PD starts doing their own sort of clandestine thing in order to operate outside the bounds of what the feds would want to do. Right.

[A]

Opposite a cover move, by the way.

[B]

Yeah. So all of the, the fictitious cop dramas aside, there are complications whenever we get to a place and we realize, hey, this is going to take some interdepartmental work. This is going to take some cooperation with some other agencies. We both got the same call, we're both responding at the same time. Now how do we coordinate in the moment with other groups that show up?

[A]

You have to have a posture of humility going up there. Think about just all the non verbal cues. Smile when you walk up to somebody, hey, happy you guys are here. Extend your hand out, shake their hand. Hey, what's your name? You know, just basic, just relationship building things that we can do can, can change the trajectory of that conversation. And at the end of the day, it's like, what are you all trying to achieve? The same thing.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So why everybody wants to win?

[A]

Yep. We all want to win, but some of us want to win so bad that we're willing to lose so that our egos can win, which is crazy.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So I just, I understand why where it's rooted. I'm sure there's a lot of truth to that, what we see in TV and Hollywood, but it's also the Hollywood effect. It's. Right. They're gonna make it more dramatic because that's what we like.

[B]

Formula.

[C]

Right.

[B]

It's a good formula for a television show.

[A]

We're talking about it right now. And that's like what people think happened and does it happen somewhere? I'm sure. But at the end of the day, like, like high level professionals aren't going to do that. They're going to find a way to say, hey, cool, all right, you've got jurisdiction. What can I do to support you?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's ultimately like, like what you want. And one of the scenarios I'm thinking where this is, is taking place with a friend of mine. He works for a company that builds machinery.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

They have a lot of proprietary equipment that they build. The machinery that they build works off of a software that's built by another company.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Who has a lot of proprietary things that they build.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

They are both contracted by a third company to create something that needs this software and this machinery to work. The issue that they're having is company A, who builds the machinery, and company B, who builds the software, both work with other companies in this industry. So if company A gives the proprietary machinery schematics to company B, there's a potential that they could take them and show them to other machinery companies and now their secrets out. Likewise, if company B gives the software stuff to company A, they run the same risk.

[A]

So there's no other machinery companies out there that can do what they do.

[B]

Not at the level that they do it at. And so this is because it's a super, it's a super, super, super niche market. So they're both trying to work with this mega brand that needs them to cooperate, and they're kind of having a little bit of a fencing match at the table because they both know ultimately their proprietary stuff is going to end up together, but they're, they're trying to work together while not giving away their secrets.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

How do they navigate this issue? Let's put you in the seat. You're consulting this third company that needs these two guys to these two organizations to work together.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. How do you help bring them to the table without saying, you know, something that's either going to lose that stuff or do you just bring them all to the same and say, hey, listen, jerks, we're all going to sign NDAs and I'm going to sue your pants off if you, if you don't, you're.

[A]

All going to lose the business.

[B]

Right. Because you don't want to strong arm up.

[A]

Yeah. No, I think there has to be some professional understanding of, hey, if we're working together, you know, we have to respect each other to not share these things.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I have something I don't want you to share. You have something I don't want you to share. We should have a common understanding of and find a way to have him, like, mutually supporting intentions and goals. And if I was consulting for the person that's trying to bring them together, I would say, okay, when was the last time you had the two of them together in a room? This would be an in person, not Zoom. Because if this is really this big of a thing.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Guess what? I'm flying both parties to our home office. I'm putting them up in a nice hotel, we're going to go out to a nice dinner together, and we're going to talk. And then the next day, we're going to spend the day in the boardroom strategizing. How do we work together? How do we find commonalities? What does winning look like to you? What does winning look like to you? This is what winning looks like to us. How do we make it to where the three of us are winning together while protecting each other? Because if we don't protect all three parties, this all falls apart.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And I would try to create a partnership, and that's what I would do.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

The. The thing that you said that you.

[A]

Working together versus each against each other is much better.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Much more enjoyable. And a lot more money can be made that way.

[B]

And so the company that you're. You're consulting for in this scenario has not done what you suggested. They've just done things over Zoom.

[A]

And so there's no way to build an actual relationship. Well, that's not true. Well, so this is not a strong, effective relationship.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Presence is primary in so many business relationships and in so many relationships in general.

[C]

Right.

[B]

You can only do so much over the Internet. So this brings me to question number two of this scenario, which is, my friend works for company A.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

How does he earn the trust of his counterpart, the company he knows? Hey, we're gonna have to work together in order to make this happen. The company that is contracting both of us to do this, they're not facilitating this relationship.

[A]

Oh. That. I would reach out to the other company.

[B]

And so how do you. What does that.

[A]

I would go to them. I would. I would then go to them. I'd get in a car and drive.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

If I can't afford a plane ticket, I'm gonna. I would, you know, I would do everything I could to. To go actually have a face to face conversation.

[B]

So you're going, you're going to them. You're having 100. Yeah, I'm trying to get on their.

[A]

Calendar and say I'm going to them because if I want somebody to trust me, what do I have to give them first?

[B]

Trust. Okay, respect.

[A]

Exactly. So I'm gonna go and I'm gonna show them respect. I'm gonna listen to them. I'm gonna ask them good, earnest questions. Hey, what are your concerns? You know, so have, have that conversation about their concerns. Hey, what does wedding look like to you? Like how, how could this relationship benefit you guys? Assuming we both do it the right way, what does that look like? I'm just going to be asking them questions and questions and questions and questions. And if they say something that I know can work, I'm going to go with their idea. Hey, look, hey, I really like that idea. I think we can make that work. And now it just becomes a negotiation. And that's why the ability to negotiate is really important in business.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And the ability to negotiate comes from listening and being able to communicate properly. So I'm going to go, I'm going to have the face to face conversation. I'm going to do the best I can to build that relationship. I'm going to get to know that person, that company, their concerns, show them what we can do to mitigate those concerns. I'm going to go and I would propose like, hey, what NDAs you guys need us to sign? Like, what limitations do you need to put in place to protect you guys? Hey, by the way, here's our limitations that we'd have to put in place to protect us. Does this still allow us to work together? Yeah, and if it's no, then okay, hey, based off that and this, the, the limitations that you guys have, the limitations we have, I don't see us being able to produce what we need for, you know, company Alpha that's trying to bring us together. Do you have any flexibility? Because I'm going to work on some flexibility on my end. Because at the end of the day, if we can find a good partnership and find a way to work together strategically, this is the best thing for both of our companies. Because if we get this contract, this is what it does to your company. This is what it does to my company. Here's the jobs that it increases, you know, and so I'm going to list out. And so that means I also have to do some research about this other company to that way when I'm going and I'm having a conversation, I kind of know a little bit. I don't know your business, but I know enough to say hey, if we did this, would this be a. Would this be a benefit to you and your organization? If we were able to triple your workflow over the next six months, does it have a positive impact? You know, so I'm just going to ask things about the business, and I'm going to keep directing them back towards a good, healthy partnership and relationship.

[B]

And I think one of the things that a lot of people miss in situations like this, whether. And we could. I mean, we can. Obviously we can take this particular scenario and we can drill down from, okay, so it's two organizations, two agencies working together. Now it's two companies working together. Now it's two departments working together, two people working together. But the principles that you're talking about are all the same as far as it comes down to facilitating the opportunity.

[A]

To build strong relationships and setting very clear expectations.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Hey, here's what you expect. Here's what you can expect of me, here's what I expect of you, and here's what we expect of the company bringing us together. Let's align on our expectations before we bring it to this other company. Because if we can have alignment on this, we actually have more negotiating power going to that company together.

[B]

100%. And there is the, hey, if you are a good partner here, there's so.

[A]

Many other things in the future.

[B]

There you go. And I think that's the piece that. That we miss sometimes. And in particular, you know, when I was younger that I really missed was the opportunities to do things in the future because I was so worried about making, you know, whether it was ends meet or, you know, hitting a certain goal or doing whatever I was focused on, like, what's. What's this gonna do for me in the next 90 days instead of what's.

[A]

In it for them?

[B]

Exactly. And then the potential of, like, hey, listen, if we work really good together on this, if we can prove that we work well together here, we meet each other's expectations. You're a good partner. I'm a good partner for you. Like, we could sort of own this piece of the industry working together. It took me about 10 years before I even thought about.

[A]

Yeah. And how many.

[B]

This is what can happen.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And how many other doors is that going to open up?

[B]

100%.

[A]

So if I was your buddy having these conversations, I would also cast some strategic vision. Yeah, hey, we work on this project together, it opens up these doors. Hey, here's some other things we kind of want to go into, and we'd love to do it with you.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, if, if it's good enough to say, hey, we work together and now you get to bring that to the next negotiating table. You know, like if, if you did this for one of those companies that's, that's out there that we think of as like these, these mega corporations, Microsoft, Amazon, Apple, like whatever. And you go now you go to the little company in the Midwest that needs something to be like, hey, what we did for Amazon, we work together, we can do for you. We understand things are a little different for you, but we're willing to work together. I want to bring them on board because they know us, we know them. This is going to be something that benefits everybody. And yeah, it may not be that mega contract, but now it's all of those smaller ones that everybody, everybody's elevated for. I like it. These conversations like, pardon me, these conversations like this are so impactful. I think as I'm thinking about the things that I have to do within, not just church stuff, but also when I think about my kids trying to get a 3 year old and an 18 month old to cooperate together, to set the table and all of those different things is showing the benefits of working together, of building relationships and then making sure you're picking the right person for the task. Because it may be that it's not the senior most person that's the best person for the task. However, whenever you give everybody an opportunity to be involved, even if it's different levels, different positions, you create this ultimate culture of decentralized command, a culture of humility, and you set the tone that hey, this is not about the individual. This is a team, first mission, first organization. And whenever we're able to operate on all cylinders, then we really elevate everyone's game, accomplish the mission and benefit ourselves and everyone else that we work with. And it's, it's so cool to see these things being able to be played out in real time and in real life scenarios.

[A]

You can't read it out loud, but I'll give you this.

[C]

Oh cool.

[B]

I love the, I love the things I'm not allowed to read out loud.

[A]

But while you're reading that, I can talk about some of the things that we do to close it out. If you want to follow us on social media, I am at jpdonelle. Lucas is at Lucas Pinkard. That's L U C A S P I N C K A R D Also thankful to our friends at first in nutrition. I had a really good conversation with Jonathan the other day about them scaling their business and Some of the other options that they're going to be providing in the future.

[B]

Pretty cool, dude.

[A]

It's gonna be awesome. So for those listeners that have not been a part of first in Nutrition, been thinking about getting your nutrition dialed in, your diet dialed in, whatever you want to call it. Some people don't like calling it diets, whatever.

[B]

Meal plan. Right.

[C]

Your.

[A]

Your health and wellness.

[B]

That makes it sound so. So technical. Health and wellness sounds like something I gotta check on an insurance form.

[A]

I mean, it's what they're doing. They're helping you get healthy, which is gonna increase all these things in your life. Go to firstednutrition.com.com jppod they're actually throwing out some free. It's four free weeks of training.

[B]

Free weeks.

[A]

Coaching.

[B]

Of coaching.

[A]

Which is awesome.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Pretty cool. And Ann is about to be at the women's assembly. Yeah. So if you want to see her firsthand, you want to check out some of the stuff that Echelon Front's doing. Women's assembly is in Arizona.

[A]

Yep. Women's assembly is coming up. You know, as we're recording this, we have FTX17 this week. As you guys are listening to this, I am actually in the middle of the mountains backpacking with Tyron Chris.

[B]

That's pretty.

[A]

And Mike, we're up in the. The North Cascades, up in Washington state.

[C]

Wow.

[B]

Well, I. I hope you're safe since this is. This is a pre recording.

[A]

Yeah, I hope I am too.

[B]

Peace be with you in this mountain.

[A]

But you know, you talk about Echelon Front, you know, we have the women's assembly coming up, which is just an incredible event that Echelon Front host. We have the Muster coming up in December. We have the post Muster FTX that has a few spots available as well. By time this comes out, FTX18 is going to be sold out as well. I know Cody and I are literally this week solidifying the last couple seats in that with some clients. So I know Lucas likes to talk about Extreme Ownership Academy.

[B]

Come on, baby. The Extreme Ownership Academy is one of my favorite things I've gotten to be a part of, especially with the live calls on Monday afternoon. Yesterday, we did not celebrate Jocko's birthday, though Rob Jones tried to trick us all into singing him happy birthday so that we would all get deleted from Extreme Ownership Academy. Jocko did sit in on the call. It was him and Jamie talking. Just him, Jamie and Rob just talking about how to be better leaders. And then after about a half hour of instruction, they actually give us the chance to do some Q and A. So whatever we're going through in our businesses, we can shoot those questions out whether they're on topic or not and just get advice from some of the people who are the best leadership consultants in the game, which is pretty rad. I did get an email this week which I was really excited about. Little Cattle Co is running a little bit of a special.

[A]

Yeah. 25% off sale right now. Yeah.

[B]

So for it may not be by this time, but if you want to keep up with what's going on with the beef tallow products, with the beef sticks, all of those things, you need to go to Little Cattle Co, sign for the email list so that you can be a part of that and you can know when. Hey, the, the anti sun or the after sun care is going on the anti itch cream because it's cooling off a little bit. Which means that the mosquitoes that weren't out at 110 are not going to be back out now. That is 85 degrees. And all those freaking little eggs and all of the little pots that you had just a little bit of standing water in are hatching. And the mosquitoes the size of small cats are back out in Texas. Make sure that you get that stuff that you get taken care of. But if you need to cover up in order that you don't get bit since the winter is coming, once you go check out the folks over at on the Path Printing that can handle all printing apparel needs. Why don't you get a nice little light hoodie so that you can cover up for the fall weather or maybe if you're up in Maine, get that big hoodie because apparently that's what you need up in the Northeast. The little hoodies that we wear down here, not good enough.

[A]

No. That's why I rated the heavy hoodie.

[B]

The heavy hoodie, Yep.

[A]

And that thing is legit when it's cold.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So check those things out. One of the people who's coming out with hoodies pretty soon and on the paths helping us with this is the folks over at Jesus and Jiu Jitsu, which is a ministry that JP and I both belong to. We do regularly scheduled seminars across the United States to bring in high level jujitsu practitioners to give instruction. Somebody from our organization or a local pastor shares their testimony. We preach the gospel and then have a good time of just open mat hang out. And we've got some new discipleship material that's getting ready to come down the pipe, which I'm really, really excited about. But if you want to finish with your Jiu Jitsu, you're a little tired and you know, hey, you know what if somebody came in? If I needed to defend myself, I can't lift my arms up. So what I need is some pugitsu. Go check out at Bruiser Arms. That's Bruiser Arms over on Instagram. That is JP Laf and Jocko. They put together custom gear packages, which is the stuff like what they would have used whenever they were defending our country, as well as some custom training that they've done for maybe some people who are high level Jiu Jitsu competitors that realize, hey, you know what, Jiu Jitsu doesn't work when you're 100 yards away from somebody. And it definitely won't work on deer. So they can get you all of the custom training and things that you need and all of that. Of course, we are clothed and fueled by the folks over at Origin and Jocko Fuel. So big shout out and thanks to them, if you haven't already checked out, origin immersion camp 2026 is nearly sold out. They do have some really cool new gear that's coming down. You'll notice a lot of their stuff is seasonal because it's all made in America from seed to shirt all the way there. And there are some new things that are coming out as they're prepping for winter and fall. And I'm really hoping the flannel makes a comeback because I have not been able to take advantage of it. They've sold out within hours every time.

[A]

I missed out on that drop last year too.

[B]

Yeah, so I want the flannel. If you want to check out that stuff, go to origin.comoriginusa.com and then big thanks to the folks over at Jocko Fuel for everything that they've done to support us. And to those who have listened and joined our our podcast, they send some really cool care packages out to all of our guests. And you can use code JP Pod20 to save 20% on the cleanest fuel and supplements in the game. JP, you get some final thoughts for us, man.

[A]

Yeah, I, you know, just thinking about what we were talking about, the workshop I did yesterday with Austin pd, the workshops that I do with clients, you know, all over the United States in person. And virtual training makes a difference every single time. You know, we say leadership makes a difference in every scenario. Leadership is the solution. Well, part of being a good leader is training. You have to train yourself. You have to train your people. And when you can train and empower and equip your people. It gives you a little more comfort as a leader because you know that they're capable and that can help you not micromanage. It helps you not, you know, worry as much. You're not as stressed. And when you're not worrying, you're not stressed, you're not micromanaging. You can be more strategic. So invest into training your people, equip them, and let them lead. I hope this episode has been a reminder to go do the work that's needed to put in the effort to build your legacy and to never settle. This has been the JPM Podcast episode 104.