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JP Dinnell Podcast
Engagement Without Emotion The Power of Detachment | Managing AI | Reddit Q&A | JP Dinnell Podcast 128
01:09:13
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- [00:00]
A
Good morning. This is the JP Danelle podcast, episode 128. I am JP Danelle and as always, I have Lucas with me. This last weekend was very powerful for me, thanks to my buddy PJ who started a foundation called Therapeutic Recreation Group, or TRG with his good close buddy Robbie. Robbie and PJ served in the Marine Corps together. Absolute studs, amazing humans. I did not know who Robbie was. Met him this weekend. Their buddy Matt, who helps with the foundation was. Was unreal. I know PJ from Double 5. His kids trained there. I knew he was an awesome badass. Marine Corps vet, combat veteran. Was actually on the Jesus and Jiu Jitsu podcast as well. Man, he's just an amazing business owner, amazing husband, amazing father, and he has a heart for veterans. And so when he asked me if I wanted to come to this, I said no. I pushed back. I had to work hold on my calendar and wasn't going to put a lot of effort into coming to the event because to be honest, I've always kind of avoided these things. And pj, being the man he is, the man of God that he is, kept listening to his heart, kept pushing me in a very good way, just was reaching out, asking, checking in, hey man, what's going on with that workhold? Hey D. So I have that workhold and just kept chipping away until I was able to make it happen. He also had an extra spot called my best friend Mike Mitchell. Asked him if he wanted to join me. Said, hey, what are you doing this weekend? Are you free? You're coming to this with me? Kind of pushed him into it. Cause I figured if I'm going to this, you can come with me. And I know he's avoided these types of things as well in the past, but I'm just thankful that I was able to do this and do this with Mike. So Therapeutic Recreation Group is a 513, I'm sorry, 501C3, nonprofit charity organization that helps get our veterans and first responders outdoors. And I can personally tell you that they do much more than that. Looking forward to having PJ and Robbie on the podcast and hopefully their buddy Matt as well, to share their stories, their vision of the foundation, why they did this, and they dive deeper into the foundation as a whole. But I wanted to start off this episode to give them the proper respect and shout out because this weekend was absolutely amazing. And it, to be honest, provided healing to a group of warriors in a way that I was not expecting. And I hate saying warriors about myself, considering I was There, but that's what they call it. And they seek out veterans that are not broken, which I think is unique, because there's a lot of great foundations that are helping veterans, and they wanted to look for veterans through a different lens, and I'll let them discuss that a little bit more. But to be honest, I thought it was just gonna be a hunt with my best friend Mike Mitchell, that we're gonna get to spend some time out in. In Breckenridge, Texas, at the M5 ranch, which was unreal, by the way. And I, you know, I figured I was gonna get to meet some other veterans and learn about PJ's foundation to see if, you know, it was something I'm on to help with and could help with and, you know, to be able to go hunt and maybe put some meat in the freezer for my family and hang out with Mike and decom bit. But I can tell you, man, it was. Man, it was more than I expected. And I'll tell you what, man, I'm all in with helping these guys. I told pj, I'm like, you don't have a foundation. You have a ministry because of what he's created. The men that he partnered with, Tommy and Jonathan, are two twin brothers that own a business out in East Texas. The best friend, Travis, they're partners with him as well, and some other companies. And these guys help sponsor and raise funds for this charity and for these events. Lucas, to where everything was taken care of. And they partnered with the M5 ranch. And the guy, Mr. Mr. Mack, who owns the ranch, is a believer. They're all believers, and he provides this opportunity. It was just. It was unreal. And my just mind was blown at what these guys are doing for veterans and how PJ has been very obedient to the Lord and listening to his. To the Lord in this whole process. And I can tell you that all of the five guys that they had there, myself being one of them, came back from this weekend completely different, changed, softened, just lighter in regards to the burden that we all carry. And what was really cool was having civilians there that funded it, that supported it, that connected with us. And just, you know, these business. These. These. These friends of mine, my new friends, right? Being able to sit and talk with them and ask them questions about their business and what they do. I mean, bro, these guys have. Between their companies that they. That they have. Lucas, they have 800 employees. Wow. It's just unreal. And their heart is all about people. Their culture is all about people taking care of their people, providing their people opportunities. And what these guys have grown is. Is unreal. So I was humbled to be alongside these guys, to learn from these guys and just create some incredible friendships, but just also to have a lot of fun. Like, so, again, huge shout out to Therapeutic Recreation Group. They're on Instagram. And, you know, I'm just. I'm still kind of blown away by the weekend and how incredible it was and just, like, the heart that all these guys had. So, on Instagram, it's therapeuticrecgroup. And their website is the. I'm sorry, is. It's therapeutic rg.org so therapeuticrg.org I know I've had some people reach out and say, hey, I'd love to see, like, how can I help? How can I be a part of that? How can I go to something like that? So reach out to them, hit them up on Instagram, go to their website, and if you have the ability to help that foundation in any way possible, I think that would be pretty rad. And I told my wife and a few other people that I want to. I want to find a way to definitely help them, because the way they're doing it, Lucas, is. It's just crazy, man. It's just. It's unreal. So anyways, how are you, man? How was church this weekend? How's your family doing?
- [06:58]
B
It was great. Family's getting huge. All the boys are growing like weeds, and it's really encouraging. You know, we. We talked a little bit last week prior to releasing episode 127. Just of kind of how we wanted to shape some things, where we wanted some things to go and getting to see the pictures, because I knew you were out this weekend doing something. Getting to see the pictures that you and Mike sent to us was. Was really cool. Getting to see just the experience that y' all had. And if you guys haven't gone and listened to Mike Mitchell's episodes, he's been. If you go back and you listen to our episode, the Ghosts of the first lar. The. The stuff that Mike was in and the warrior that he is is just pretty inspiring to be such a quiet and humble dude. So really stoked for y' all to. To get to have gone on that, and I'm looking forward to trying some of this meat because some of our mutual friends have commented on. On that this is some of the. The best game meat that they've had. So, yes. Oh, yeah, I'm looking forward to that.
- [07:57]
A
Yeah, I can't wait. It's gonna Be freaking awesome. So I like what you did, man, with Reddit. You sourced some awesome questions and conversations. So we, we took a jump into that, man.
- [08:10]
B
Yeah, we, we took a stab into the, the dark recesses of the Internet on Reddit. Now I, I was a little nervous about this, right, to be honest. You never know what you're gonna get on Reddit. And I went in using my real name, which is always fun. So I, I did. We, we reached out to some of the people who listen to Jocko's pod it and ask them for, hey, you know what? We want questions that you have never heard answered on Jocko's podcast, on the Lead Win podcast or on the JPDL podcast. There's a lot of crossover there from the people who listen to those, you know what, what are some of the things that y' all want to know questions you've never heard answered? And we got some really, really great feedback. We got some stuff that I think is, is pretty interesting. We've got some stuff that is jiu Jitsu related, a lot of leadership stuff. We've got a Bible question. So there's a lot of stuff for us to go at, but we're going to go with what got the most upvotes, like where what was the most interesting question. And it's a multi parter having to do with detachment. So the first part is, how do you personally detach? What is your process for detachment?
- [09:25]
A
What I've learned over time is just don't react right away. It doesn't matter what's happening now unless it's like somebody attacking you or if you're in some crazy hostile environment. But even then, like, if you can create a little bit of space to get clarity on what's happening around you, that's what you should absolutely do. And I would take that and apply it to what we're talking about. It's like create some space to collect information, data so that you can make a good decision. So if that means I'm having a heated conversation with somebody, you know, if I'm on the receiving end of a heated conversation with somebody, I'm not going to say anything. I don't have to respond to anything. I can just listen and then respond when I'm ready to give a good response. And if it's in person, you know, I might tell that person like, hey, I understand that this is very important to you and I understand that you're frustrated right now and I would like to give you the best response possible. And I don't have that right now. Can we talk about this again tomorrow or can I connect with you next week? Can I give you a call tomorrow after I think about these things and us have just a good conversation? And I'm going to try to break contact. You know, so if you're in a gunfight, you're getting ambushed, you're in a really bad situation, your goal is to break contact, right? So you return fire and you break contact. Now, in an argument, you don't want to return fire. By arguing and pushing back to them, the return fire would be address the concerns, the frustrations, validate who they are because they're sitting there talking with them. Don't dismiss them, don't be disrespectful, don't try to, you know, stir the pot and just disengage and come back to it if you need to. And sometimes I'll disengage with people and then set boundaries and not re. Engage immediately. And, you know, with those boundaries comes parameters and expectations of, you know, what's expected and, and then we'll go from there. There's, there's a. There's a lot of power in just listening, receiving, processing, and then responding when you think you need to, when it's the right time to respond. So what does that mean? Sometimes. Sometimes it's just a. Just taking a breath, listening, not getting emotional, not taking it personal. Another time sometimes is I'll do this, and I stole this from Jocko. And for those that are watching on YouTube, they'll see I sat there and I just, I put literally my hand to my face with my finger over my lips as a reminder for me to. Don't say anything, don't talk. Yeah, there you go. Right? It's just, it's subtle, but. It's subtle. But it helps, right? It helps me not respond, not get emotional. And it just reminds me there's power in the pause, which is detaching. Another thing is I might go for. I might go for a walk or a ruck or a run, or I might go work out or I might go train jiu jitsu. If I get some crazy email or some crazy text message or some crazy voicemail or get off of a crazy phone call, I'm going to go work out. I'm going to go burn off some steam, some energy, think about things, you know, probably call somebody, get a little bit of wisdom and advice from somebody else who's not emotionally connected to it. And that's why I also will choose who I call and talk to. Because I want to. I want to have some detached perspectives and not somebody that's going to be like, oh, yeah, screw that, blah, blah, blah, like, feed into the frustration I had. So I'll be smart with, I would say, I guess, the counsel that I'm seeking. But, yeah, just, just pause, assess what's happening, and then break contact.
- [13:39]
B
So the second part of the question is, how do you know when to detach? Like, do. Do you have a thing that you're looking for? Is there a trigger that is. Is kind of set off where you're like, okay, this is the moment when I'm going to detach?
- [13:56]
A
I mean, I'm sure, I'm pretty sure, like Jocko said this before, but I want to detach all the time because I need to stay detached so that I don't get emotional, I don't get sucked in, I don't get frustrated, I don't lose my temper. So I'm going to try to do that all the time. Something I've been trying to work on is being comfortable with not having to respond to somebody right away, which helps me with not interrupting people and not cutting them off and jumping in at the end of the conversation. It allows me to think a little bit more and then just respond with logic and not emotion. So, yeah, we should be doing that all the time. Now, the level of detachment is going to vary based off of that scenario and situation that you're trying to navigate and work through. So the time that goes into that calculus will be dependent upon the severity of the conversation and. Or what's actually happening at that time. So you should be doing it all the time.
- [14:59]
B
So there's not just like a, a specific word. Like if somebody says, you know, what was the, the thing that Tom Hanks used to say on Saturday night? Sybil sybilism. You know, like, as soon as you hear that, like, it's your safe word for detaching or like, you know, that. That, that's the. That that's the case. There's nothing like that. The, the goal is to be constantly in a state of. So how do you, how do you then balance, like, detachment and engagement?
- [15:27]
A
It doesn't mean that I'm void of emotions and void of responses. It just means that I'm not responding right away. Not everybody deserves a response from you. Not everybody deserves your time, your energy, because if they're toxic and they're, you know, just trying to pick a fight because they have something going on themselves, which is unfortunate, I don't have to engage I don't have to be sucked into an argument. I don't have to be sucked into, you know, whatever it is. Now I'm going to be respectful and I'll let them know, like, hey, you know what? I don't, I don't think this conversation is going in a good, in a good direction. You know, I'll get back to you tomorrow. Let me think about what you said because you have some very interesting perspectives that I know are valid to you, and I would like to figure those out. I don't have them right now, and I don't want to cause more friction between us by us just arguing. So I'm sorry. I'm going to go. I'll hit you up tomorrow. I'll hit you up next week. Right on. Also for myself, I have to be aware of my own red flags. So if I'm listening to somebody or if I'm in a situation where I'm starting to get frustrated, I have to be aware of my own red flags and other people's red flags. If somebody obviously, if they're red face, angry, clenching their fists, clenching their teeth, you know, costing a lot, yelling like, okay, that's a red flag. Disengage, disengage, disengage. If somebody is being manipulative and, you know, trying to stir the pot and cool, disengage, disengage. You know, if they're trying to, you know, to just get a response from me, disengage. You know, my wife, when she gets, like, frustrated, she'll get like a, like frustrated or mad, she'll get like this red blotchiness on her chest and neck. And I know that I need to help de escalate that situation. Whether it's something I created or somebody else has created for me. If I start to stutter or mix up my words a lot because my speech impediment from my past steps, like, starts to kick in, I need to probably disengage from that conversation or that situation. And so there's a lot of different red flags that we all have. Just being aware of them and just practicing a little bit of silence and pausing will do absolute wonders because it allows you to think and process before you respond. Also, yeah, saying, hey, I'm sorry you're frustrated right now. I'm sorry you're mad. Sorry, there's a little bit of delay on this, so I think I just cut you off and I apologize.
- [18:12]
B
You're good.
- [18:13]
A
But man, if somebody's super pissed off, I'm like, hey, I'm sorry that you're frustrated right now. That usually tends to help a little bit. Does it fix it? No. But is it a. Is it a step in the right direction apologizing? Absolutely.
- [18:32]
B
You've. You've talked a little bit about your speech impediment before, and since we're in a Q and A, I'm going to throw one of my own in there because you, you do speak really well when you're on the podcast. I've heard you on several different podcasts other than, you know, the 120. This is what, 128 episodes now that we've done together. Right. So a couple of hours that we've recorded together. And on top of that, seeing you speak at ashlon front events, seeing you do keynotes, you know what, what was the. If, if you don't mind unpacking, like, what was the speech impediment that you dealt with when you were younger? And how did you overcome that? Because this is something I've heard mentioned, but we've never, like, gotten into.
- [19:13]
A
Well, my parents were awesome. They. They identified it when I was in preschool and kindergarten, were talking with my teachers about it, and they got me into speech therapy. So I did speech therapy all throughout elementary school. And it was, you know, I would just stutter sometimes. I'd mix up my words and there was just certain words I could not pronounce. I'd have to ask my mom. My mom knows. I think it was like, there's certain sounds that I could not say. And so I just had to train my brain how they work through it. But my parents were super encouraging. They, you know, they would help me afterwards and they would help me when I was, you know, a little nervous to speak in front of people or, you know. Yeah, I remember I was in junior high and I had not seen one of my friends from elementary school in a couple years. She, Brianna Petty. We were really close, like growing up, you know, really close in elementary school and then also in high school. And still this day, like, she got a beautiful family. And there's a few times I'd go back home and get together as friends and, you know, would see her and some of the other friends and she's just like one of those, like, awesome friends that I had growing up. And she was, you know, she's taller than me. She was always taller than me. And I remember, you know, I was really short in. In school growing up and, you know, this one of the smaller kids. And I remember it was, I want to say, eighth grade, we're at the Sunrise Mall, and I saw her and a few other friends, and I was sitting there talking with them. And the whole time we're talking, like, my head was just down. Like, my head was just down. And when we, like, broke away, said goodbye, gave her hugs, you know, friends went in different directions. I remember walking away and I remember my dad, like, pulled me in, pulled me aside. He's like, hey, bud, are you okay? And I'm like, yeah. He's like, I. You know, your head, your head was just down the whole time. Like, you weren't making eye contact. Like, is. Is everything okay? And I was just embarrassed because of how little I still was. But also, when I get nervous, I would, you know, speaking to other people, I would kind of mix up my words sometimes and stutter. And so because I did that occasionally, I was embarrassed and I just had my head down. And I remember my dad just encouraging me to be like, hey, it's not a big deal. That's your friend. Nobody cares. And, you know, you just have to work on that and you have to work on not being nervous. And when you're not nervous, you won't stutter as much. And, you know, I just, I remember that moment of just realizing, like, okay, cool, yeah, this is something I've just got to be intentional with working on and just get better. And also, if it's something that I know well and I have confidence, I don't stutter, I don't mix up my words.
- [22:12]
B
That's pretty wild how that works, man. Which that does. Yeah, that does kind of lead us into this. Second question is, how do you prepare for presentations? And how do you know when you're ready?
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A
So when I first came.
- [22:27]
B
Yeah, you just said the. The practice helps.
- [22:30]
A
Yeah. I was going to digitally slap you if you said practice makes perfect.
- [22:36]
B
I wasn't.
- [22:38]
A
Yep, practice makes permanent, not perfect. So that's why we have to be careful and intentional with what we do for training and practice. So when I was given the opportunity to come on board Echelon Front nine and a half years ago, I understood the opportunity. I took it very serious. I was able to go to the very first muster. Then I was able to watch Jocko give a half day workshop. I was able to watch Leif give a keynote with a Q and A session. Jocko do a keynote with a little breakout group of leaders. And at the muster and the half day. I'm sorry, the full day workshop that Jocko did with LA Fire County, L.A. county Fire and Leif for that keynote with Q and A and Jocko's keynote with a breakout session of Q and A, I took copious amounts of notes. Like, the amount of notes I took was unreal. I recorded on my phone the audio recording Leif's keynote. I did the same thing for Jocko's keynote and for the Q and A times that Leif did and Jocko did. I had probably about, from the very first muster, probably seven to eight pages of notes. I had multiple pages of notes from Jocko's full day workshop with LA County Fire. And I just would study those notes. I would listen to the audios probably three to four times a day. So you're talking three to four hours of listening to their keynotes. And then when I got copies of their keynote presentations, the slide deck, I would listen to them and click along with the slides to what they were saying. And I would do that for a couple hours a day. And then when I created my own slide deck and I would go through my talking points with my slide deck that was very similar to theirs. I would practice that four to six, sometimes eight hours a day total. I would do it in the morning, in the evening. And when it came time for me to give my first presentation to Leif and Jocko over Skype, it was like an hour to the mark. Like to the mark an hour. And then we did some mock Q and A. And I remember afterwards Leif said that he was very proud of me, that him and Jocko could tell that I had put in a lot of work and I had done a great job on my presentation. And he said, we have zero doubt that you can go do this in front of a client and represent what we do. And shortly thereafter, I did my first keynote. It was a 90 minute keynote with Q and A and it was a series of other speakers. And it was December 14, 2017. I'm sorry, 2016. December 14, 14th, 2016, out in Denver, Colorado. And I remember showing up and I woke up earlier than I should have so that I could go through my keynote twice. So just an hour, because I didn't have the Q A session, it was a 60 minute keynote with 30 minute Q A. So I went through my brief twice and oh, I'd also done it the night before where I did a full rehearsal twice. So I flew to Denver, Colorado, got to my hotel, grab something to eat, ran through my keynote two times back to back, woke up early, did the same thing, showed up early, checked out the venue, made sure everything was going to be good for my connections. And ran through my slides two more times while these other speakers were talking before I needed to go get set up after the break. And I remember taking a picture of all the other speakers and I was the only one with letters not added after my name. And there is, you know, Doctors, guys with PhDs, MBAs, all these things. And I remember saying that to Jocko and Leif and Jocko, go. Jocko responds and says, get used to it, you're gonna do awesome. And so I put, I still like, you know, Amanda knows I'll talk to her and she'll be like, you know, we gauge our evenings based off of what I'm gonna be working on my slides. And I still go through all my slides. I, you know, we have pre event calls and I take notes on those pre event calls. And I will make tweaks, slight tweaks to my slide deck based off of the calls that I have with clients. So I customize. We all do that. We customize our slide decks and our briefs. More specifically, we customize our briefs to what our clients are working through and what they're wanting to obtain from the trainings. And I will go through my slide deck tonight. When we get done with this, I'm going to go knock out a workout, get dinner, talk to my family, go through my slide deck. Tomorrow morning, I'll show up an hour early before the event kicks off, make sure everything's good to go for AV connections, and I will do a quick run through and just look through. I will make sure all my slides look good up on the screen. So I'll click through every slide, read, read through every slide to make sure there's, I'm not missing anything. No grammatical errors, spelling errors, anything like that. And then while I'm doing that, I'm getting the flow in my brain fresh. And then I'll go engage with the client, hang out. And then right before I go, I pull up the slide deck on my phone because I have everything synced from my laptop to my phone. And I will pull up that slide deck and look through all the slides about 10 to 15 minutes before I speak. And then I close that out, I text Amanda, getting ready to turn off my phone. I love you. I'll text you during lunch or a break or whatever it is applicable to that day. And then I turn off my phone and then I just tell myself it's time activate, you know, because that's something that Jocko used to tell me all the time when I was a Role player. And he wanted me to turn it up and, or do whatever he needed me to do. He would say on the radio, jp, activate. And there's times also I get texts from him, jp, activate. Just as a nice little reminder. And you know, so that's what, that's what I do. That's how I prep. And then I always do a debrief internally afterwards and then I do one with the client and then I update notes for that client based off the debrief that I have for myself and that the client has.
- [30:13]
B
So how do you know that you've rehearsed enough? Like when, when, or do you ever get to the point where you're like, you know what, I'm, I'm ready for this. Or do you just keep going as often as you can until the time comes where it's go time? Regardless of whether you're ready or not, keep going.
- [30:30]
A
Because if you think you're good, then you're not. Because that's, that's when you allow complacency to creep in. Now, there's a difference between knowing that you're capable and thinking that you're perfect. I know I'm not perfect. I know I'll never be perfect. But there is a point where it's like, you just got to be, go bust that door, get in there, open the door, see what's on the other side. And so if we try to make things perfect, then we'll never take action because we'll never find perfection. Sorry, man. Deep coffin. So there is a balance that you have to figure out on your own of knowing am I capable of delivering good content, yes or no. And if you're being honest and doing an honest assessment, you'll know. And if you're like, I'm not sure, then you're probably not good. Now the thing you have to be aware of is are you being hypercritical to yourself and self deprecating to the point where you're holding yourself back from actually taking action? That's what you got to figure out for yourself. But here's the deal. Somebody said this today at the hunt. Nobody's ever developed a patent for version one because one of the guys, one of the guys created this awesome setup to lift huge animals onto the back of a truck. Because the animal that I got you needed a winch to get it up onto the back of a vehicle. It wasn't going to be two to three guys lifting it. It would have been like 6, 6ish, maybe seven guys trying to get that up, and it would have been just a pain. And so he created this thing, and it was awesome. This guy cutter at the M5 ranch, awesome young stud in his 20s, managing the ranch. My guide, Sonny, she's 22, and she's helping assist managing that ranch, running the ranch. And these two are incredible humans. And, you know, he had. What he created was awesome. It needed a few little tweaks, and he was just kind of frustrated. And all the guys were like, they're like, bro, this is awesome. Like, this is legit. Hey, make this little tweak. Make this adjustment. It'll be good. Hey, do this. Like, everybody was giving good, constructive feedback. And one of those business owners I was telling you about is either Jonathan or Thomas. I can't. I don't. They're twins, so I don't remember which one of them said it. Fair enough. But they were like, you know, they're fabricators. They own businesses that do all these awesome things. And their buddy Kevin. I'm sorry. Yeah, Kevin. Who has a business with them as well, another one of their many businesses. They're all very brilliant when it comes to business and ideas and just ingenuity. And they. It was one of them that said that they're like, nobody's ever put a patent on version one. And they were just being encouraging to this kid. It's like, hey, man, what you got here is awesome. There's some tweaks.
- [33:50]
B
Yeah. And it's important to remember those types of things because it's easy to have this feeling that just because you. You see somebody that's successful, you feel like they were either born into it or they had overnight success or. Or things like that, you know, One of our. Our favorite comedians is a lady named Leanne Morgan, who is now. I mean, she's. When she really broke onto the scene, she was in her 50s, and everybody was like, oh, she's this overnight success. And she's like, I was doing comedy, you know, for the last 30 years and, like, going to clubs while I was trying to raise kids and I would sneak away to try to do open mics or I was doing these other sets. Like, just because you heard about me last night doesn't mean that I was this overnight success. And I think that it's easy for us in the social media age when everything's happening so rapidly and you don't see all of the years of toil that somebody put into a cool piece of gear that they've created. Instead, what you get is all out of nowhere. You get bombarded with advertisements about that cool piece of gear, and you're like, oh, this just popped up overnight. Because all of a sudden it's everywhere and you weren't aware of it before, when the reality is years of work and toil behind it. One of the other questions that we got that I think is pretty interesting, I want us to kind of hop a little bit. This is a leadership question, is how do you lead a team that is disillusioned and burnt out? And the example that they use are people that work in the UK health industry, you know, doctors and nurses, and I think then the uk, I don't know much specifically about their stuff, but I've got a lot of friends here in the US that are nurses. And right now we're at a place where those skilled workers are just. They're incredibly high demand and incredibly short supply. Right. So how do you lead a team that is disillusioned and burnt out?
- [35:58]
A
Wow. How do you lead a team that's disillusioned and burned out? Is there a difference, though, between disillusioned and burned out, though? Those seem like two different things to me. And the way they phrase it as if it's one. So is this two different answers that I need to be giving?
- [36:14]
B
You know what? I think it could be right, because a disillusioned team, maybe in this situation it is both, even though I do think you're right, because there's a difference between a person who's birthed out and a person who's disillusioned. A person who's disillusioned thinks things aren't the way that they are or had a different idea and expectation of things whenever they got involved in it. And a person who's burnt out may be a person who understands exactly how things are and are supposed to be, but is just at a place where, you know, they're. They're hitting a wall, whether it be energy, whether it be mental focus. Yeah.
- [36:50]
A
You know, disillusioned from being burned out. Yeah. Yeah, I see that.
- [36:55]
B
Yeah. They can feed each other quite a bit. Yeah.
- [36:57]
A
Yeah, that's a good question. I wish, man. It would be cool if we could set it up to where we could have guests somehow join us live for Q and A on the podcast.
- [37:08]
B
Oh, we. We definitely have the potential for that.
- [37:11]
A
I wonder if our guests would like to do that.
- [37:13]
B
That'd be kind of fun.
- [37:14]
A
Yeah. I don't know. Mix it up a little bit, because I'd like. I would like the fact that I have more Clarification on this. Yeah, you know, just a little more. Kind of like what we do, not kind of like what we do on Extreme Ownership Academy. Yep. The live trainings that we do at Echelon Front, those are live trainings that we do every Wednesday. And you have the ability to ask questions and then come off mute and add more clarification if they get to your question. So, yeah, get a little extra that. I would love to do that right now, but. So burnout. So a few things that come to my mind is you have to give your people rest. And I know people also are running businesses and organizations, and you've got to keep the machine moving forward, but you have to ask yourself, at what cost? Tactical versus strategic. Are we tactically winning but strategically losing? Because we're grinding our people out every day and they're working super hard. But the strategic loss is they. They get so burnt out that they make a mistake, they kill a patient, they make a wrong decision on a job site. You know, they get killed on a job site because they're so tired and fatigued from running, you know, 27 days straight trying to get, you know, these power lines installed and put up on this big project, and somebody makes a mistake, it doesn't clip in and falls down. Like these things that happen because people get tired and fatigued, they get burned out, and that's what mistakes make. So the tactical thing is like, no, we gotta keep moving. We can't take a day off. We can't be behind schedule. Okay, at what cost, though? And you have to ask yourself, what's the cost to your people? So you have to give your people breaks, and you have to also ask for breaks. You have to tell people, hey, you know what? I need a break. I'm burnt out. I'm not gonna. I'm not making good decisions. It's not safe for me to keep running this pace. I had to do that with Seth one time in Ramadi. We had been operating for 21 days straight. Just crazy, insane tempo. And I had to tell him, hey, boss, if we keep running at this tempo, somebody's going to get hurt or killed. And he recognized that. He goes, yep, okay, you're right. And we took a few days. And the disillusion could come from burnout. And that's what I'm assuming that they're talking about. And if not, let us know in the comments, wherever this is posted, that you're watching and reading. And it's the same thing if people are disillusioned because they're exhausted and worn out. Like, as a leader, you have to step in and give people rest, you know? I know. I. I know I've used this analogy before about sled dogs. Sled dogs are incredible. The. The term you're a sled dog in the SEAL teams was a positive statement because it meant that you're a hard worker and you're just going to grind it out and you're gonna get. You're gonna keep pushing forward. The thing with sled dogs, though, is they need guidance and they need breaks, because if you don't give a sled dog rest, they will run until they die. And it's like, okay, cool. So you gained some extra ground today with your crew, but they died, they burnt out. They're no longer capable of moving forward. So now your progression has completely come to a halt. And as individuals, we have to be aware of these things within our spouses, within our kids, and within ourselves. If you don't take time to rejuvenate and refresh yourself, you have nothing to give to the people around you. And that's what I got from this weekend with trg. That's what PJ provides veterans. And it wasn't like I was burnt out and getting ready to crash and burn. But I'll tell you what, man, a little recharge once in a while. Let's freaking go. Yeah. And it was crazy what God did for my heart to prepare me this weekend, you know, to prepare me for stuff I was working through today. I actually worked through them this weekend before today came about, and I was like, cool. No factor. Good to go. Already. Already know. Holy spirit prompted me. Already worked through some stuff.
- [41:23]
B
Yeah. There's a buddy of mine named James Carberry. I think we've talked about him before. He. He owns a company called Sweet Fish Media, and one of the things he's really big on when they're in, like, super busy seasons is knowing his staff.
- [41:38]
A
Yes.
- [41:39]
B
And. And he has a. He has a questionnaire that everybody fills out as a new hire of, like, what's your favorite candy? What is your. What's your favorite book? You know, what's your favorite childhood memory? Do you have a favorite sports team? Like, whatever that is. And so they fill out this questionnaire, and it's this. This massive spreadsheet, and then they kind of forget about it. And he keeps all those so that whenever they're going through, like, a massive season where, you know, the work's really heavy and all of that stuff, he'll go through everybody's spreadsheets and figure out, like, okay, this is a book that this person likes, or here's a quote that, you know, really inspired this person or whatever. And they'll place, you know, they'll. They'll come into their office or they'll come into the workspace or whatever, and he'll have just little things placed around them that have that. Or, you know, they'll, you know, maybe their. Their favorite baseball team is, you know, the Padres or whatever. And I'm thinking of one of his employees in particular. And so, you know, he's working from remote in San Diego, so he just gets an alert on his phone. It's like, hey, man, sorry that you've. You've had to work late the last three days. It's going to be another couple of long weeks. But, you know, tomorrow night you get tickets to the Padres game. And so there are those.
- [42:53]
A
Awesome.
- [42:54]
B
Yeah, so there. There are like, these. These little things that, you know, are. Sometimes they have a cost associated with them, sometimes they don't, but they're things that you can do that even in the midst of, like, these really heavy times of. Of working, things that you can do where you can show appreciation for. For people and give them a little moment where they're like, you know what? Yeah, I'm feeling kind of burnt out. But we're all in this together, and it brings kind of that. That camaraderie back.
- [43:22]
A
You know who's good at that? Leif Babin, Jamie Cochran. The two of them are. Yeah. And Jen Tarantino. Like, those three are unreal. And. And big shocker.
- [43:34]
B
Yeah.
- [43:34]
A
The people on their team are all really good at those things now, too. Like, the little Christmas gift that I got from Echelon Front, it was crazy how specific it was to me. It was awesome, bro. It was just so thoughtful. And, yeah, those little things. Hey, you know, Echelon Front takes care of me. They pay me well. They give me this great opportunity. I have, you know, a sense of fulfillment. I know that I'm part of the winning team. I know that what we do at Echelon Front helps people. And I know that if I ever needed anything, Jocko, Leif, they got me covered. Yeah, they will. You know what I mean? Like, I know those things. And then whoever put together this little package brought me so much joy when I was looking through those things, and I was like, man, this is awesome. Because it was thoughtful and they were intentional.
- [44:26]
B
That's pretty rad. This is another question from the same. I would say from the. The Same guy, but they're. These usernames are absolutely insane. And for fear that they are something I shouldn't read aloud, I'm gonna avoid them. Yeah. Do not. But same. Same person says, how does leadership change in a world of AI agents? I do think this is an interesting modern leadership question. We had a. A friend of ours that nearly his entire workforce was replaced by AI bots, and so now he's managing code instead of managing people. So what does leadership look like in a world of AI and AI agents?
- [45:11]
A
Well, he's still having to interact with other humans, so nothing changes. Now. The. The depth of his span and control has changed, the amount of people he's interacting with and managing has changed, but he still has his leadership that he's communicating to, supporting, also helping them win. Leading up. There's other people that he has to communicate with. So leadership does not change. We just have to adapt to the changes around us in regards to, you know, the scenarios that we're a part of. There's nothing new under the sun. Leadership is leadership. These principles have been around since the day of time, and they're not going to change now. How we apply them is going to change based off of the industry and whatnot. But, you know, it's. Unfortunately, some people are going to have to change industries and go find something else, which is why it's really important that we as humans have versatility when it comes to skill sets, the ability to adapt and be willing to learn something new. My brother's going through that right now. Change your careers. You know, he's, you know, been looking for work out in the east coast. Hasn't been able to find what he wants. And he's like, all right, cool. Guess what? I'm gonna have to change. I'm gonna have to change what I'm doing. I'm gonna have to change my environment. And he's not playing the victim card. He's taking ownership over his life and, you know, looking for new careers to go into.
- [46:38]
B
What book has had the greatest impact on you and why? And you can't say the Bible. I'm adding that you can't say the Bible because I knew what was on the tip of your tongue. So what other book. What book other than the Bible, has had the greatest impact on you and why?
- [46:54]
A
Can I give a few answers?
- [46:57]
B
I'll allow it.
- [46:59]
A
All right, cool. Especially since this isn't live with our guest.
- [47:03]
B
Yeah, right. Yeah.
- [47:05]
A
And it's our podcast, and we can talk about whatever we want.
- [47:08]
B
Yeah, whatever we want.
- [47:09]
A
Yeah.
- [47:09]
B
There are some categories where, like it might be the greatest thing in this category that had an impact on you. It would be different from others. So yeah, yeah, I'll give you a few.
- [47:22]
A
Extreme ownership. Because at that point in my life, I needed that wake up call that I couldn't play the victim card anymore. I couldn't blame everybody else. And I had to recognize that all the relationships in my life that had been damaged was because of me. So extreme ownership shifted my mindset. Dichotomy of leadership taught me to think differently in regards to all the different environments and remind me of what I used to do in the field. Teams, man. Jocko's book, Leadership Strategy and Tactics, the field manual for leadership, is such an incredible tool that that has had a very, very big impact. And then also this book that I read, like when I first got out of the military and I was doing sales from Rock Star from Rock Bottom to Rock Star by Ryan Blair. And that book, I read it multiple times. I gave it to multiple people. I buy it and give it to people. Rock Bottom to Rock Star. And that was a book that I really enjoyed and applied to my mindset for this guy went from in gangs and a really hard life to building and selling a business for like an eight figure business. And I think he even sold in a nine figure business as well over time. Awesome book. And then also. Wild at Heart was really good. When I found out that Hayden's mom was pregnant, somebody suggested that book to me and I read that book in one weekend. No, I wasn't. Yeah, it was over the weekend. I was in Louisville, Kentucky for a two week training block and I got the book and I read it in one weekend and it was just a very encouraging book to me. And there's a lot of other books we can keep diving into. But since they said.
- [49:51]
B
Since they said one, we'll give them. We'll give them five.
- [49:54]
A
I'll give them five.
- [49:56]
B
There we go. There's a. There's the top.
- [49:59]
A
Those are all. But that's like different seasons of my life and you took away the Bible, so that was rude, disrespectful.
- [50:10]
B
Yeah, because that's a book for every season of life, man. And that is the one that, you know, if you want to have a book that will completely change and impact your life, there isn't one better than that.
- [50:18]
A
That. But also another good reminder of everything we teach. Ashley on front need to Lead by Dave Burke was awesome. You know what? I can't wait to read Rob Jones's Book, you know, so it's just like all the like. And I know that book is incredible. Everyone I've has told me that they've read it is incredible. It's. I'm waiting to read it. I've got. I'm just trying to be more disciplined at starting a book and finishing a book, you know, so. And I started another book. My pastor, Tyron. I'm sorry, One of my pastors, Tyron, who is also on this podcast, recommended a book to me. We were talking and he re. It's a book that he reads once a year, and it's called Spiritual Leadership by Jay Oswald Sanders.
- [51:02]
B
Ethan May also reads that book once a year. And he. And I remember when he was here, we geeked out about it because I also read that book once a year.
- [51:11]
A
Yeah, it's awesome.
- [51:12]
B
Phenomenal book.
- [51:13]
A
I can't put it down. I also did the audio version of it and I'm like, oh, wow.
- [51:19]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's. That's awesome stuff, man.
- [51:23]
A
What, do we have one more or a few more?
- [51:26]
B
I've got several more, but let's, let's. Do you want to do. Wrap it up with a leadership question or a Jiu Jitsu question?
- [51:35]
A
It's called Jiu Jitsu.
- [51:36]
B
All right, let's do leadership.
- [51:38]
A
We'll do more leadership.
- [51:40]
B
Yeah, we. We got more. More leadership stuff to come. And this next question, I think with the leadership stuff, we could probably make an episode out of. So I'm stoked about that one. So come back and you'll get the answer to that. Ghee versus no gi. Do you train different or do you use your no GI game in GI training?
- [52:02]
A
Well, I trained primarily GI because the gym that I'm at, Double 5 in Highlands Village, Formiga, is a GI guy. Before I moved to Texas, it was almost all no gi. When I was training and fighting mma, I only did no GI because that applies to mma. And it was Jiu Jitsu geared towards my MMA style, which wasn't very effective. I mean, I had a good record, but I wasn't a great fighter, if that makes sense. I never was going to go high level pro. I was never disillusioned of that, maybe had some desires, but never disillusioned of where I would be. I really like no gi. It's a lot faster. I like GI because as I get older, I like to learn that game. So I primarily train gi, but I do like no gi and I will throw down no GI if the opportunity arises. And I. I think my grips don't get as tired, as fatigued as a lot of other guys in the gi because I don't grip the GI all the time. I use a lot of my no GI training for my grips and pushes and pulls and then use my grips on the GI when I need. When I need to.
- [53:29]
B
Question number two then, about Jiu Jitsu, is, is this, and I'm asking you this because I'm trying to lure you into controversy. So congratulations. Self defense versus sport Jiu Jitsu, has the sport gotten too far from its roots?
- [53:50]
A
Meaning, like which one do I prefer?
- [53:53]
B
Well, meaning, meaning has Jiu Jitsu, because this is a big question that's being asked in, in on, on Internets right now. Internets wants to know. Jiu Jitsu started off as self defense sport Jiu Jitsu and self Defense Jiu Jitsu have very different ways in which they're practiced and what their end goal is. Right? Like one is geared towards points, but you might not do the same thing in order to SC points that you would do if you were trying to prevent yourself from being punched in the face. Right? So, so has this, has the sport of Jiu Jitsu gotten too far away from the roots of Jiu Jitsu as a self defense to where the two are now almost like mutually exclusive? Do you do just sports Jiu Jitsu or do you do just self defense Jiu Jitsu, or is there, is there a place where they're, they're both applicable or have they gone to two completely separate lanes?
- [54:51]
A
Well, I would like to officially on the record say that as a newer brown belt who does not compete, who is not a high level practitioner and competitor, who also does not train regularly, does not train as much as I should because priorities don't allow for it with travel and work. My opinion should probably not be taken into consideration. But since you asked me this question, my response would be, who cares? They're both awesome. If you want to train Jiu Jitsu for self defense, then find a good self defense Jiu Jitsu gym. But guess what? You can apply what's being taught in Jiu Jitsu for self defense as long as you have a little bit of common sense, as long as you have a good gym you're training at, and as long as you ask good questions to your professor and you say, hey, I really like the vibe of this gym. I know this is a big competition gym, I'm looking for self defense. You know, hey, once a week could I ask you some questions about what applies to self defense and what's sports and your professor should say yes, and if they say no, then go find another gym. I think sports Jiu Jitsu has made Jiu Jitsu awesome. It has made it to where it's now on ufc and people are getting paid good money to compete in Jiu Jitsu and it makes it to where it's a sport that people want to watch. So I think sports Jiu Jitsu is awesome. I love watching it, I love doing it and I'm going to compete this year.
- [56:30]
B
So I'm stoked about that.
- [56:32]
A
Yeah, well, at least one of us is.
- [56:36]
B
But I do think, you know, this. It's, it's interesting that you would first say that, you know, your, your opinion doesn't matter and in a sense. Right, but there, there are some things that, you know, like you say going to a place where you say, hey, I want to do this, or my focus is, is this. I want to do those things. One of the things that's great about these gems, like, you know, using our gym as an example, like Double five, if you go in and you tell your professor, hey, listen, you, you're teaching lasso guard today or some kind of weird thing that doesn't seem like it's going to be super applicable. They're, and you're like, hey, I really want to focus on, you know, Jiu Jitsu is self defense, not sport Jiu Jitsu. They'll say, okay, well, cool, cool. Do the drills with everybody else. And then when it comes time to like, do your roles, don't do then. Well, yeah, either, either one, don't do those things. Or two, you know, when, when you come back and ask your, your coach, hey, you know, what do I need to work on? They're not going to tell you to work on, you know, your, your De la Hiva guard, you know, or whatever, they're going to say, hey, okay, so you know, your closed guard is you need to do X, Y and Z. And I know you don't want to do, you know, these kind of things that are, that are sports stuff. So just focus on, on these other basic things and they'll coach you in the proper way. And that's one of the things that's, that's great about having a high level
- [58:05]
A
coach, but what's, what's crazy is like, okay, do I want to be pulling guard and going, you know, deep half on the street? No, because I'm in a good spot for somebody to smash my face in. But let's say I get knocked down and I'M on my back and you're coming at me and I use my feet to push you back and. And for whatever reason, you pass my guard like you pass my feet and you're in my side. Well, guess what? What you've learned in sports. Jiu jitsu to regard and. Or get half guard with lasso guard. And you could sweep that person because you grab the wrist and you, you weave your foot in, or you grab their sleeve because they're wearing a long sleeve shirt or a jacket. And you could actually hold onto their hands holding onto the sleeves of their jacket or their wrist and put your feet in their biceps for spider guard and p them and keep them away from you. Guess what? Sports jujitsu just became self defense.
- [58:57]
B
Yeah.
- [58:58]
A
Because if I'm holding your wrist and your sleeves and have my feet in your biceps and pushing them back, guess what you can't do. Oh, you can't punch me. You can't headbutt me. You, you know, you're, I mean, you're probably not gonna be able to kick me. You might be able to knee my butt. Okay. But, you know, I mean, I'm being serious. Like, you're not going to be able to do much. And if I, you know, like James Gonzalez, his lasso guard is freaking annoying. So if he's on the street and got knocked down and somebody came in and he grabbed their sleeve, put his foot in there, he's going to freaking sweep you. And if you try to stop it, he's going to separate your shoulder. So therefore, guess what, he's going to separate your shoulder and then get the sweep and be able to neutralize a threat by staying on top of you or breaking contact and running away. So, yes, sports jiu jitsu can be applied in self defense.
- [59:59]
B
There you have it. So the question is yes and no,
- [60:04]
A
and it's whatever you want to do. Yeah, Just go train.
- [60:07]
B
I think I was gonna say answer is go train, you know? Yep.
- [60:11]
A
Go train and find, find something you enjoy. And the other thing that's cool about Jiu jitsu, it's community and it's a workout, and it's going to keep you healthy because it gives you something to do. You're not going to want to be smoking cigarettes all day. You're not going to want to be getting hammered all the time. You know, I know a lot of people that stop drinking and, or reduce the amount of drinking, stop doing drugs, stop smoking, because they enjoyed being around the people at the jiu jitsu gym and they wanted to actually progress and do well.
- [60:38]
B
There you go. Well, thank you guys so much for participating in this Q and A. If you want to continue to be part of the conversation, maybe look for us on Reddit. Maybe we'll drop something on there periodically like this. We get some more questions to answer that we'll do sometime in an episode in the near future. If not, go to Instagram. We are on Instagram. JP's @JPdonelle. I'm @Lucas Pinkard and you can check out the @jpdanelle podcast. Since March has begun, we're dropping some new reels on there as well as shorts on YouTube and the videos on Spotify where you can watch videos of this podcast as well as on YouTube. There's all kinds of ways to find this, share it with your friends. If we answered a question that you have been wondering, when are they going to answer it? Let us know. Hey, thanks for answering the question. Or if you've got one that maybe we didn't get to. Or how about this, you got a follow up question that I didn't ask, Drop it in a comment, let us know. We'd be happy to answer it. And this kind of stuff is what adds value to you guys and it helps us a lot because we're through thinking through these scenarios. They're applicable for y'. All. So thanks so much for sending in the questions. Um, if you are wanting to get on the path with the stuff that's happening with Echelon Front, you heard JP mention Extreme Ownership Dichotomy of Leadership. You heard him talk about the need to lead Rob Jones's new book that that just recently came out. We're gonna have Rob back on the podcast to talk about that here sometime soon. You heard him talk about the Extreme Ownership Online Academy. All of those things are things that you can access. Go to echelonfront.com check out all of the things that are happening there. Go Events tab and you can see when you can participate in an ftx. Go to the Muster, which is happening here in Nashville in just a few weeks and be in person with these guys, these men and women who are doing this training that is applicable to every aspect of your life. Sit down with them, take your copious amounts of notes like JP did, but also stand in line, wait the 10 minutes that it's going to take and and have your question answered by the people who literally wrote the book on it. So check all that stuff out. JP mentioned the Wednesday Extreme Ownership Academy calls. That's another place where you can Ask some of these questions. That's one of the premium things that are offered to the Extreme Ownership Academy subscribers. So go check out ashlandfront. Com if you want one of those instructors to work with your company, shoot an email to info onfront.com and they'll get you set up with some of that stuff. We do have links in the show, notes for those individual assessments and stuff that we've talked about for the last two weeks. So make sure that you check those out as well. To take care of yourself, go to firstinnutrition.com jppod they're offering four free weeks of nutrition coaching to anybody who listens to the podcast. And we're not getting anything out of that other than making sure that it helps to keep you on the path. Jonathan and Ann Montgomery have done a phenomenal job of making all of the people who come to them better versions of themselves better by getting them in the shape that they need to be in, by helping them control their nutrition, getting them on the path and to the places that they want to be. So make sure that you go check out firstinnutrition.com jppod go look@littlecattle.co with all the amazing beef tallow products that they've got. If you need apparel printing, go check out on the Path printing. You can follow them nthepath and then we talked a lot about making sure that you're prepared in self defense. Go check out Bruiser Arms. Arms Bruiser Arms is Jocko Willink, Leif Babin and JP Donnell and they have an organization, they got a company called Bruiser Arms where they put together custom gear packages that help you be able to defend yourself and your home in the ways that you see fit. Also, they do custom training. So get on there. Go check out roozerarms. Get yourself trained, get yourself geared up and ready to go. And now that you got all that done, you want to look the part. So go to originusa.com go get some of the best American gear on the planet. From seed to shirt, every part of the supply chain is here in the United States. It's tariff free because it all comes from us. And so you're going to want to get your, your Moab pants. You're going to want to get that new flannel shirt that's coming out. There's a light blue shirt that got a lot of attention here over the last couple of months. It's, it's about to hit the, it's about to hit the production line. Go ahead and get yourself one of those light blue RTX hoodies. You know you want it. And then go check out jockofuel.com when you do that, go check out JP Pod 20@jockofuel.com. use that as your coupon code. It'll save you 20 on everything that you get over there. They have been a phenomenal partner in the podcast from day one. Both Origin and Jocko Fuel just keeping Americans on the grind, doing the things that we do best, fighting for our freedoms and making sure that you know what, after those guys have fought for our freedoms, after the veterans have come home, that they're supported and that they've got something worse coming coming home too. So huge thanks to all those guys who have been just keeping the American worker burning and churning. Jp, you got any final thoughts for us?
- [65:39]
A
Yep. So muster 24 almost sold out in Nashville. Check in registration meet and greet on Wednesday the 22nd, and then the muster is going to be on Thursday the 23rd and the 24th, and then we will be in April.
- [65:53]
B
Or is that May?
- [65:54]
A
Yeah, April. Did I say April? Oh yeah, April. Sorry.
- [65:56]
B
Yep, sweet.
- [65:57]
A
And then we will be at Muster 25 in San Diego July 8th. Wednesday, July 8th is registration meet and greet and then the muster is on Thursday the 9th and Friday the 10th. And we will also be having a pre muster FTX. So instead of it being after, it's before for both of those as well, the day before. So that Tuesday in Nashville and that Tuesday in San Diego. And then in September we will have FTX20 down in Austin, Texas on the outskirts of Austin. Check in registration kickoff Classroom is on Sunday the 20th, and then the FTX is on Monday the 21st and Tuesday the 22nd. And then we will be up in the Coeur d' Alene, Post Falls, Idaho area for an event called the Red and Blue foundation is hosting a roll call with Danny and I and possibly Cody. And that is the first week of October. So we're not sure the dates yet, but that's going to be somewhere between October 5th and the 9th. And that is going to be two full days of training, similar to the Muster, but geared specifically for first responders. Anybody can come, but it will be focused on first responders. And the Red and Blue foundation that had Cody and I up there last month is hosting that. And that's going to be absolutely incredible. And then the following week for muster 26, we will be in Denver, Colorado. The pre muster FTX will be on Tuesday the 13th, registration meet and greet on Wednesday the 14th, and then the muster will be on Thursday the 15th and then Friday the 16th. So good amount of events coming up. Obviously the council up. Council sold out. There's a battlefield come up as well. Like Lucas said. Go to echelonfront.com check it out. Come hang out with us and looking forward to seeing people at those events. My closing thoughts I'm going to steal it from Thomas and Jonathan and Kevin. Nobody patents the first iteration, so keep putting in the work. Make adaptions, make changes. But more importantly than anything else is you have to put in the work. You have to keep working on something, revising it. Don't get complacent, don't get frustrated, don't blame other people. Take ownership and do what you need in your life to succeed and to provide things of value. Provide things of value to your family, to your church, your friends and the people around you. Help other people win and you'll win yourself. So I hope this episode has been a reminder to go do the work that's needed, to put in the effort to build your legacy and to never settle. This has been the JP now podcast, episode 128.