← JP Dinnell Podcast
Loading summary
Transcript854 lines
- [00:01]
A
Good morning. This is the JP Danell podcast, episode 119. I am JP DiDanelle, and as always, I have Lucas with me. So today I'm very excited for our guest. She is a woman of strong faith, an amazing wife, a mother to two beautiful children, has been an athlete her whole life. Growing up, she did swim team, basketball, wrestling, kickboxing, karate, water polo, played water polo in high school and in college, graduated high school about two years early and actually had to have her mom drive her to take her college placement exam. She enlisted into the Air Force as soon as she was old enough, was a physical therapist, has done personal training, nutritionalist, has done a handful of physique competitions, finished up her college, got into med school, graduated med school at the top, got her number one pick for all five years of her residency, which is not common. Graduated at the top of her residency class to become a surgeon. Also during this time, got married, had her second kid, went back into the Air Force and was commissioned as an officer and is now a captain in the Air Force where she is serving as a surgeon and also an instructor, teaching others into the medical field. She. She is also one of my best friends, someone who I am extremely proud of for everything that she has done, overcome, and endured in her life and is my little sister, Sarah. How are you?
- [01:29]
B
Hi.
- [01:30]
A
Love you.
- [01:30]
B
Good. Love you. Thanks for having me.
- [01:31]
A
Lucas. What's up, buddy?
- [01:32]
C
I'm just experiencing deja vu since I didn't push record in the studio and we had to do this already once. That's. That's what's going on.
- [01:39]
A
That's good. I got my nerves out of the way.
- [01:40]
C
That's good. Yeah, me too. I'm owning my mistake. And also I had some really good lines in there that no one will ever hear. So we'll see if they come up organically again. Definitely not going to force it.
- [01:50]
A
All right. Right. Sarah, you shared a really good bluff. What's the bluff and what is a bluff?
- [01:57]
C
It's the bottom line up front. I know this because we've talked about it so many times.
- [02:01]
B
You're such a quick learner.
- [02:03]
C
Thank you.
- [02:03]
B
I'm so proud of you.
- [02:04]
C
Thank you so much.
- [02:05]
A
The instructor side of her just came out. No, I'm very.
- [02:09]
C
I'm impressed that I took that note and wrote it down.
- [02:14]
B
Oh, man.
- [02:15]
C
Oh.
- [02:16]
A
So growing up with two older brothers.
- [02:18]
C
Yeah.
- [02:19]
A
And, you know, we've talked about it. We've, you know, very fortunate. We had a really good childhood with our parents and had us in church and just heavily involved in, you know, serving at church and, you know, we're very active as kids, which I'm very thankful that our parents had that ingrained into us, which is the foundation of who you. You still are. So what, what was, what was childhood like? What were some of your favorite sports, you know?
- [02:43]
B
Yeah, so childhood was great. I mean, honestly, we grew up with two parents who said, like, we're, you know, very supportive of us being active and trying different things, you know. And looking back, honestly, they really put forth a lot of effort to making sure we could try different things, which is really a blessing, you know. Tried soccer once. Wasn't a soccer fan. No. Moved on, was able to try. I mean, I was like five, right. And I think the sun was in my eyes, so I didn't like that. So, like, I moved on.
- [03:19]
C
You didn't just use eye black?
- [03:21]
B
Yeah, no, I'm not with it. Swimming was great. We all swam. We were really blessed because, you know, swimming is actually expensive. I have a 16 year old daughter who's in swimming year round in the suits every year and all of this. It's very involved. But yeah, our mom was an aerobics instructor at some clubs that allowed us to basically use those for free. So that was great. And then that kind of evolved into playing water polo. And rugby was probably my favorite though.
- [03:47]
A
I did not list that.
- [03:48]
B
Yeah, that's okay.
- [03:50]
A
She was rugby gangster on the rugby.
- [03:53]
B
Rugby, but funny it sounds.
- [03:56]
C
What's rougher, water polo or rugby?
- [03:59]
B
They're rough in different ways. Right. So they're both endurance sports. Oddly enough, you get hit in both sports. We were just talking to my daughter about this. In water polo how, you know, there are definitely ways to hurt people without the refs calling you out on it. But in rugby, right, it's pretty blatant. You're just straight up tackling people. But I was a strong side flank and so I was on the outside of the scrum and was just a fast runner. And then when I would tackle or get tackled, you know, the goal is just to quickly get the ball back on your side of the scrimmage to keep moving. And I did that for my two years in high school and then two years in college as well. I moved up. I was at Sac State University playing at 16. And so since I was 16 years old.
- [04:51]
C
16 years old. Playing rugby in college.
- [04:54]
B
Yeah.
- [04:55]
C
Okay, cool. I just want to make sure I got all that right.
- [04:57]
B
But I wasn't that large and so I got taken out pretty quickly, to be honest with you. I was like, yeah, it was like towards the end of the season, luckily though, but I was running, had the ball, was going for the tri zone and got taken out. These two big Samoan girls just came at me from opposite ends and tackled me. And you wear metal cleats in rugby. And my cleats stuck in the mud and the rest of my body moved and my knee didn't and just kind of took it out, went out, didn't really feel it at the time. Pretty much just kept going. And then, you know, your adrenaline is kicked in. And at the end when I felt it, I took off my cleats and could barely stand up and then eventually had to have surgery on it. And what was funny, what kind of surgery, that I actually just tore like my meniscus. And I had what's called a plica band, which is basically an extra cartilage that a lot of people don't have. And that kind of got disrupted as well. But it wasn't that bad.
- [06:00]
C
Yeah, yeah, it sounds not that bad.
- [06:02]
B
Those are all pretty fun. But when I was first learning to play rugby, it sounds like, oh, you're so hardcore, you play rugby. But I was pretty scared, to be honest with you. I was like, what did I get myself into? And I remember our parents came to one of the games and they were watching me run and tackle and this and that. And dad comes up at halftime and he's like, sarah, you have to open your eyes when you're tackling somebody.
- [06:33]
C
Good advice.
- [06:34]
A
I mean, but just like the statement of what you just said, so many people, I want them to like, remember that and like, just receive it and apply it. Like you were scared, yet you were still out there doing it. You didn't let that fear hold you back. You're a 16 year old girl playing college rugby. Like, that's crazy.
- [06:55]
C
That's rad.
- [06:56]
B
I did a lot of questionable things, to be honest with you, and I probably still do. But that's what I've decided is the theme of my life. What am I doing? Like, what are we doing here? I don't know. But then I just do it anyway and it eventually works out. So that's kind of a lot of it, right? So with the sports and then with college and going early, so I didn't have to leave high school early, but it just kind of. I got it in my head that this is something I wanted to do. We had a friend of a friend that had taken the high school equivalency exam in California, which gives you your high School diploma early. But before I did that, I went and I took placement exams at the local community college because my parents were saying, rightfully so, saying no, you can't go away to college at 16. Okay, I guess that's reasonable. Yeah, very valid. But our local community college in California, American River College, had transfer agreements. So you go there two years and right away you set a transfer agreement for the four year degree that you want at the university. And as long as you maintain a certain gpa, you get an automatic transfer admission to that university.
- [08:16]
C
Oh, that's right.
- [08:17]
B
Yeah. Yeah. So I did that. But at first it seemed kind of bizarre, right? I had just turned 16 and I went to take the placement exam at the college and luckily did well. Got actually 100% in the English and math to place which classes to start in. And they asked me to be a tutor. And so that was weird, but I went back and took the equivalency exam to get my high school diploma. But I wanted to finish the year even though I technically didn't have to just finish it. So I had that completion on my school records. And our English teacher, we both had the same English teacher, Mr. Riley.
- [09:05]
A
Oh yeah.
- [09:06]
B
And he had my results. And before you could leave for the day to decide which row would leave early, he would do like a spelling question or something like that. And I would answer and he's like, oh, by the way, this is Danelle's last class. She doesn't need to take the test because she got 100% placement exam in college. Dismissed. Goodbye. Everyone turned around because I hadn't told my friends, I didn't tell anyone I was leaving high school. And that's how it was announced. And I was like, oh, what am I doing? One of my friends was so mad at me, she just like, didn't talk to me for a while. She's like, I can't believe you didn't tell me you're not coming back to high school. I was just like, well, here we are.
- [09:52]
A
I planned on telling you, but Thanks a lot, Mr. Riley.
- [09:55]
C
Yeah, we're not gonna be friends next year anyway. Cause I'm gonna be in college. What's it matter?
- [09:58]
B
Yeah, so I go to college at American river. And I knew that then, that I wanted to go to medical school, that I wanted to be pre med, but honestly I was a little scatterbrained. So I was taking the pre med classes, but also in any college degree you have to take basic English, sociology, psychology, some history, foreign language, things like that. And so I kind of mapped that out with my counselor. And then I'm also working. I worked at In N Out Burger.
- [10:31]
C
You heard of it?
- [10:32]
B
Yep. I was an amazing fry girl.
- [10:34]
C
No doubt.
- [10:36]
B
Lifted those potatoes like a madman. And then played rugby and it was off season from water polo. And then I would teach swimming as well. And so basically how like my days would work is I would go and swim in the morning for water polo, morning swim, and then do my classes. And then in between classes I would have like two hour breaks and then that's when I would tutor. And then after class, I would teach a four hour swimming class to kids and adults and then have our water polo practice at night and then do my homework and whatever. And that's what I did during the week. And then on the weekends had games and then started working In N Out as well.
- [11:21]
A
And you're doing all this at the age of what, 16? 17.
- [11:23]
B
16. 17. Yeah. And it was funny. I had a couple of students that when we sat down for their tutoring session that like, how old are you? And I remember one guy, I was like, you don't want to know. So just let's focus on your homework, sir.
- [11:42]
A
Meanwhile, he has like a gray beard.
- [11:44]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [11:45]
C
Like, listen, A squared plus B squared, buddy, let's work on this.
- [11:49]
B
But I. It was bizarre because at the time you don't think of it right? You don't think like, oh, this is a weird thing to be doing. But it was cool. I got to meet a lot of really cool people. A lot of the students that I tutored, it was English as a second language for them. They were in ESL classes. And so I met some really cool people from other countries and to hear their stories of what they went through to struggle to get to America, to come to college and get a United States education, was really inspiring.
- [12:19]
A
So.
- [12:19]
B
So you make the best of it and it really kind of humbles you.
- [12:24]
A
That's also an awesome thing to be exposed to at that age.
- [12:28]
B
Exactly.
- [12:28]
A
I mean, most teenagers and even young adults don't get to experience interacting with people from another country who have sacrificed a lot and fought a lot to be able to come here and have access to what we have. And I'm willing to bet that also helped shift, like your mindset to being very thankful for what you had.
- [12:51]
B
Absolutely.
- [12:52]
A
And what we had growing up and. Yeah, that's awesome.
- [12:54]
B
Yeah. So that was a really good experience. And then I got more. So then that was like my first year in college. Second year in college, I got more into the pre Med kind of clubs. And it was cool because we would meet as groups and go down to local medical schools and you could do like a sit in day where you can kind of see what it would be like a day in medical school. And then I started volunteering at a hospital. And I did two different volunteer jobs. One was at a community hospital and I worked on the surgery floor. And this was an old community hospital where they literally had a switchboard. And so one of my things was sitting at the switchboard and wait for the patients to press their call bell. And I would kind of answer it. And if it was, hey, I need my water cup or I can't find my remote, something like that, I would go help them. But if it was something more legit, then I would track down the nurse, you know, and that was my first exposure to really sick patients in a hospital. You know, on the surgery floor. Things like, you know, I'd go in, some guy had brain surgery and his thing was. He called, he asked, he said, my head is stuck on my pillow. And he wanted me to go and like, peel his head off of his pillow because his wound was seeping and was stuck. And in hindsight, I'm like, why was I. Why did they let me do that? That seems like a horrible idea. I had zero training.
- [14:17]
C
Yeah.
- [14:19]
B
Another was sitting for a patient. And I won't tell you all of the gory details.
- [14:24]
A
I don't want them.
- [14:25]
B
But yeah, so now they have, like, medically trained. This person is maybe like a med tech or patient care technician that sits with a patient that maybe is going to be potentially dangerous to themselves or others. They're delirious and they kind of sit in the room to make sure they don't harm themselves. And so they sat me in a chair by the door and gave me some magazines and said, yell for help if he gets out of bed. I'm sitting there in like my volunteer white polo and khakis with the magazine, like, looking around, and all of a sudden this guy jumps out of bed, rips off his gown, starts trying to pull lines out and is just screaming, ah. Like, pulling his lines out. It's like, help.
- [15:17]
C
Yeah, but you had to put down Tiger Beat so that you could.
- [15:20]
B
Yeah, yeah, but. So that was my first exposure to the hospital. I'm like, okay, well, I can still deal with this. But then the next thing, that kind of solidified. Not only did I know I wanted to be a physician, but a surgeon was one of my tutoring students. I tutored, actually him and his mom in sign language. That was my foreign language in college in California. And I think a lot of colleges, you have to have a foreign language.
- [15:43]
C
And so that was my wife's foreign language was asl.
- [15:46]
B
Oh, perfect. Yeah. And so I was tutoring them in asl and then it kind of evolved nicely. Good job. Into. They also hired me to tutor him for his high school classes. And so I would go to their house and tutor them, and she would cook dinner and stuff like that. And it was pretty close to Sac State, so it worked out, you know, before or after rugby practice or something. And. And his dad was an anesthesiologist at the local hospital and started talking to him about medicine and things. And long story short, he let me shadow him a couple of days, and so that was my first exposure into the operating room.
- [16:24]
A
How old? 17.
- [16:25]
B
I was 17 now. Yep, I was 17. And so fun fact, that wasn't actually like a legit thing to do, but. But he was like a higher up anesthesiologist, and it was around the holiday season, and so he was just like, come with me and grab me some scrubs. And basically was like, stay at my side. Like, don't talk to anybody.
- [16:44]
A
School and valor. No, just kidding.
- [16:45]
B
Yeah, exactly.
- [16:46]
C
If anybody starts to talk to you, only use sign language.
- [16:49]
B
Yeah, Only use sign language.
- [16:51]
C
Yeah, that's it.
- [16:52]
B
Yeah. And so I'm super pumped, right? I'm like, I'm pre med. I know. I want to go to medical school. And this is my opportunity to be in the operating room. And it was. He prepared me. It's gonna be a long day. Back to back, two open heart surgeries. Awesome. And so I'm standing at the head of the bed with him. Anesthesiologist, Right. He's explaining all the machines to me, all the pumps and what everything does and the physics and physiology behind it, and it's really, really interesting. And then there's a drape in between where anesthesia sits in chairs, like this very comfy, cozy, and they have all of their gadgets. There's a big blue drape. And then the patient and the surgeons are on the other side and everything. And then after we're done talking about anesthesia, they bring over a step tool and say, do you want to look at the other? Look at the surgery? Absolutely. And he's like, just don't touch anything blue, which is all the sterile field. And, you know, because then it ruins everything. You're not sterile. And they have to, like, start over. So I'm like, super Paranoid. And I'm, you know, you're obviously, you're wearing a mask and everything, which now I'm very used to. But at 17, first time in an OR, I was not used to that at all. And so I'm standing there, I'm so paranoid I'm gonna mess it up. And I'm so focused and I'm like breathing weird in the mask and I'm not touching anything and I'm not moving, and I'm just staring at the surgeons working and I'm so mesmerized. And next thing I know, I wake up on the floo.
- [18:24]
C
I passed out where this is going.
- [18:26]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [18:28]
C
So tunnel visioned and.
- [18:29]
B
Yeah. It just didn't move. And you're so locked in. I was so locked in and wasn't moving that I just passed out and. Yeah. Woke up to like, some nurse like, are you okay? And I was like, oh, my gosh, I'm so embarrassed. I'm so sorry. I was like, did I hit anything? He's like, no, you fell in the correct direction.
- [18:56]
C
You didn't go headfirst into the patient's chest cavity.
- [18:59]
B
So that worked out well. So that was my first experience in the operating room. For anyone who thinks they can't be a surgeon just because that happens, like, yeah. But, you know, went, got some juice, stood. And he asked, hey, are you sure? Do you want to stick around for the second one? Are you okay? I said, yes, I'm good to go. It had nothing to do with the blood. I just wasn't moving or breathing really. I was just scared I was gonna mess something up.
- [19:29]
C
My body just forgot to operate.
- [19:31]
B
Yeah.
- [19:32]
C
That's the only thing that happened.
- [19:33]
A
That's crazy.
- [19:34]
C
Yeah.
- [19:34]
B
Yeah. So I went. So then from that.
- [19:37]
C
It was a tense focus, though.
- [19:38]
A
It was.
- [19:38]
B
Yeah. So from that day, I was like, I want to be a surgeon. Right. But then fast forward a little bit. I won't draw this out too long.
- [19:50]
C
But this episode is about you.
- [19:53]
B
Yeah.
- [19:53]
A
Well, yeah.
- [19:54]
B
No, it is so weird, but. So that's when I knew I wanted to be a surgeon. But then at the end of those two years, I'm transferring to sex. To the university. Right. Sacramento State University. Still playing rugby, but I no longer have my scholarship. So I had my first two years of college paid for. I no longer had scholarship funds. University tuition is expensive, and I was already working as much as I could while going to school full time. And mom and dad, unfortunately, they could help a little bit, but they couldn't afford a college tuition. They had Their own struggles. And we were kind of in this. In between of. I wasn't on my own yet to qualify, so it was still under mom and dad's income, and they were right in that gray zone where I didn't qualify for assistance. And so it was like, we can afford for you to take one class at a time. I was like, well, that's going to take 12 years. So I was also working on my private pilot's license at the time because I was like, oh, do I want to be a pilot doctor? Turns out I had add, but Google figure.
- [21:05]
C
What are you doing in between rugby polo, tutoring and visiting the hospital? Hospital as a. As a volunteer. Also doing pre med. I'm just working on my pilot's license in case I need a fallback plan.
- [21:18]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [21:22]
A
That's amazing.
- [21:22]
B
It sounds a little psychotic when you say it like that, I guess.
- [21:26]
A
Or awesome.
- [21:26]
C
Yeah, I think it's totally awesome.
- [21:29]
A
I think it's awesome.
- [21:30]
B
I did not watch tv, let's put it that way. There was no social media during this time.
- [21:35]
C
You didn't have time for Netflix in the midst of all of that.
- [21:37]
B
Yeah, yeah, right. This was like early 2000s, you know.
- [21:41]
C
Yeah.
- [21:43]
B
So, yeah. So my aunt and uncle, Aunt Carolyn and Uncle Eric lived up in Washington state and they were in the Air Force. Our aunt, a nurse practitioner, was a flight nurse, and he was a pilot. And I was very interested in that and went and stayed with them for a few months. And they.
- [22:06]
A
Excuse me.
- [22:10]
B
They exposed me to what they were doing, and I thought it was really cool. They were in the reserves, but flying on a regular basis and really exposed me to the opportunities that the Air Force could provide. And so initially I thought I wanted to do a flight med tech, which seemed like a streamlined thing to med school, but the wait list for that tech school at the time was over a year. And I just kind of wanted to get the ball rolling. And so they introduced me to this job called a load master. And so I ended up signing up for that. And that is you're an enlisted air crew on the plane and you're in charge of all of the loading and unloading operations. You have to do the math, the calculations of where everything goes on the cargo plane and how it gets tied down and things like that. And what's really cool is the recruiters in California said there was no positions open for a load master at Travis Air Force Base, where I wanted to join. And so Aunt Carolyn knew somebody that she flew with that knew somebody. Right. And called the Squadron and said, can you please give my niece an interview? And so. Sorry. So they set it up. So I went back to California, and they were able to set up actually an interview with the squadron before I even went to boot camp.
- [23:35]
A
That's awesome.
- [23:36]
B
So that's really cool. Yeah. Which is pretty bizarre. And so I was able to. I went to the squadron, met everybody, went out to the plane, and part of the interview for this job was that you had to take a handwritten math test, no calculator, and you had to go out to the plane and be able to take off all the doors, put them over your head, because they're like 50 to 60 pounds, and walk up and down the plane carrying all of the doors.
- [24:06]
C
So this is like, one door at a time.
- [24:08]
B
Not, like stacking all the doors.
- [24:10]
C
Okay. I don't know how many doors are on a plane.
- [24:11]
B
That's a valid question. It was one door at a time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. Because typically these jobs were not Loadmaster. Typically isn't something you do straight out of boot camp. It's like people, maybe they were an engineer, they did something else, and they come into it. And so without being prior service, they wanted to make sure that I could really do the job before they committed to sending me to training. So that was pretty cool.
- [24:37]
C
Little did they know that you've been training with two young men that have been playing Navy SEALs their entire lives, getting ready for this exact thing.
- [24:46]
B
Yeah, so I passed that. They. They signed me on, and so I signed up actually in 2004 for the Air Force, and then I went to boot camp in the beginning of 2005. And so then I went through all the load master training, and that was in Altus, Oklahoma. Beautiful area, if you haven't been. There's a sonic.
- [25:12]
C
Really? That's about it, man.
- [25:15]
B
Yeah, they don't have the training there anymore. The Air Force decided to move it. Yeah, that was about it. So that was. That kept me busy. But it was great. Right. There's no distraction. So I just. I studied, I worked out, I swam. They did a pool on base. And so I would, you know, train, swim laps, run, things like that. And so went through basic training, went through basic Loadmaster school, and then I had to go through the altitude chamber physiology training, which is pretty cool. They basically make sure that you can tolerate going up to altitude without oxygen. You know, when you get delirious and things like that, when you get deprived of oxygen. What was really crazy, what happened there? There's, like, another weird story of just God intervening that when you go in, you have to have a class 1A physical, and that includes dental, to make sure everything's good to go, that you can tolerate being in the plane if you. If you lose pressure. Right. And I was. Went through all of the physiology training, and then I'm in the chamber getting ready to go up to altitude, and this guy, it's like bizarre. It's like a movie runs in and goes stop. And super dramatic. And they stop and turn and he's like, you know, is. Is a 1C dinelle in here? We need her out to dental. And they were like, waiting till the last minute and looked over. Apparently I had like two cavities and they were worried that the holes in my teeth would, like, cause my teeth to explode at altitude.
- [26:50]
C
What?
- [26:51]
B
So they literally like, pulled me out of the chamber before it went up.
- [26:54]
A
So there's a legitimate reason why you have to do those Class 1 dental exams for that training?
- [27:00]
B
Yeah. Isn't that bizarre?
- [27:02]
C
I've never. Okay, how does that work? How would your teeth explode? Going up, like when they.
- [27:10]
B
When they don't pressurize it. So when you're in a plane, you're in like a controlled pressure situation, right? So you're not. Your body isn't experiencing the physiology of 30,000ft.
- [27:21]
A
Okay.
- [27:22]
B
But in this chamber, you do. And so the gas exchange can theoretically cause cavities to burst your teeth open.
- [27:33]
C
Good grief.
- [27:35]
A
Could you imagine being in there? And that happens and you have no idea what just happened inside of your mouth.
- [27:42]
B
That's why you're also not supposed to fly when you have in the military, not civilians, you'll be fine with colds because your sinuses can rupture. And so it wasn't totally uncommon. If you're in a military plane and something happens to one of your flaps, your seals, for whatever reason, you have to put on oxygen and you depressurize the plane. That eardrums pop, sinuses pop, and apparently your teeth can pop.
- [28:13]
C
Bruv. That sounds so absolutely unpleasant and has just unlocked a brand new fear. I never knew that I had my teeth exploding.
- [28:23]
A
I'm just thinking, like, how lucky I got over my time in the military. When they're like, hey, you gotta go do this stuff. And we just wouldn't do it. We just wouldn't do it. And we would go do training. And I have been in the altitude. I am. This was like 20 years, 20 something years ago. And I'm like, my palms are sweating thinking about what could have happened because they're like, guys hate to go into dental.
- [28:51]
B
Yeah.
- [28:52]
A
If somebody would have just told me that, like, like. So let's look at it from like.
- [28:56]
C
A thing though, in the military is don't go to the dentist.
- [28:59]
A
Well, no, people just avoid it because typically, typically you don't get the best dental work done in the military. I'm still getting a lot of mine, like, fixed and replaced and whatever. So it's just like a horrible experience for more for most people because they use. I'm not. Not a blanket statement for all dental techs in the military. I'm very thankful, obviously, for all of our dental techs in the military. But what I've experienced, it was people like, straight out of school or in training. It was never the person with the experience doing the dental work on me.
- [29:31]
B
Yeah.
- [29:31]
C
It's just some kid with a Dremel tool and a mask saying, hey, lean back 100.
- [29:35]
B
Let's say what it is. It was horrible. I then spent two. Two weeks with lockjaw because they did all three root canals at the exact same time. I couldn't open my mouth for days. It was horrible.
- [29:45]
A
Yeah. But had somebody just. I'm thinking about this from, like, a leadership aspect. Had somebody communicated that to us, like, hey, guys, the reason why you have to get your class 1 dental work done is because as you're going through this training, this is what you're gonna be exposed to. Here's a legitimate risk that's going to be associated with you going into these altitude chambers. We got to make sure you have all your stuff done. Had somebody said that.
- [30:11]
B
Yeah.
- [30:11]
A
All of us would have been at dental. Lined up.
- [30:13]
B
Yeah.
- [30:15]
A
100. Because all it is is just a check.
- [30:17]
C
Okay.
- [30:18]
A
It's a check.
- [30:19]
C
Because, like, I am curious, having met a few of the guys that you gone through training with and. And having had some conversations with, I.
- [30:27]
A
Can tell you one thing that guys do not want is what Sarah said could have just happened. I would have 100% done all my dental exams. Maybe not the work, but the exams. I would have done all the exams to at least been signed off.
- [30:41]
C
Yeah.
- [30:42]
A
That's crazy.
- [30:43]
C
It does make me wonder, though, like, how many of those guys might have been like, nah, I'm fine. My teeth won't explode.
- [30:48]
B
I have tough teeth.
- [30:49]
C
Yeah.
- [30:49]
A
BTF Tony would have been like, ah, whatever.
- [30:52]
C
That's exactly right. Like, you know, there's a couple of guys, There's a few guys. Like, I think you and Andrew Paul would have. Probably. Would have probably done it. But I'm not sure about Parrot like Birdman might have been like, no, I'm fine.
- [31:02]
A
Yeah, that's valid. Carlos would have gone because he's smart.
- [31:08]
C
And too handsome to not have perfect teeth.
- [31:10]
A
Exactly. Okay, so nice little God moment Intervention. So you're in that chamber.
- [31:15]
B
Yep. So they pull me out. I go get my dental work done. And, yeah, it was very unpleasant. They did three root canals at the same time. Couldn't open my mouth for days. But I just got to kind of hang out on base for, like, two weeks, and then until I. Then they put me back into the next class. I had no idea what I was doing. I was just, like, walking around, and people were like, who do you belong to? I'm like, I don't know. I don't know what's happening. Being in Air Force Reserves was wild. I was in. And then I went to a second, like, tech school, and I was, like, on the opposite wing of all the other kids, and they were all, like, with roommates down this other hallway. I was on the opposite hallway, literally by myself. I had, like, three beds in my room. And it's just me because nobody knew really, who I belonged to, which is. I was just, like, under the radar. So people would, like, use my room to hang out. I never once had a room inspection. That's the most Air Force thing ever, like, in all of tech school. I also have a list of things for JP of, like, this is the most Air Force thing ever.
- [32:17]
A
Well, your daughter Aaron, who I love, and she's incredibly smart. Like, big shocker, you know, coming from Sarah.
- [32:24]
C
And you say intellect is genetic.
- [32:28]
A
Yeah. Well, Aaron is incredibly smart. And I'm sure Sarah will talk about a little bit more about, like, what she's currently doing right now and wants to do. But last night, all the kids, you know, because Hayden's in town right now as well. So you have Aiden, Hayden, Aaron, Cora, Noel, and then little baby Micah. But all the older kids, the teenagers were going to go for a walk last night, and they come back, they're getting ready to go back out. And Aaron, I'm not. I'm not going to quote her perfectly, but she says something along the lines, like, well, do you guys have, like, a reflective vest or something I can wear, you know, for, like, safety or whatever? And Sarah just straight up goes, that is the most Air Force comment I have ever heard in my life. It was awesome because it was such a valid thought and, like, a legitimate, like, oh, it's dark in our neighborhood. You know, like, there's not street lights. We live out in the county. Ish. Not ish. We're in the county. There's not a lot of street lights. That's what we love. At night, it's dark. Our neighborhood is dark. Our property is dark. We love it. You see all the stars and it's great. But when the kids go out walking at night, there's an inherent risk. And we tell them, like, hey, maybe don't wear all black and. Or camouflage.
- [33:37]
C
And they're like, well, how are we going to avoid these ring cameras if we don't do that?
- [33:41]
A
Apparently they're not very good at. We'll talk about that later maybe. And okay, side note, if kids are doorbell ditching you, don't be a douchebag and call the sheriff's department on a kid doorbell ditching you one time. Yeah, like, good Lord. Anyways, so. So no.
- [34:05]
C
So uptight.
- [34:06]
A
It's crazy. No room inspections.
- [34:08]
B
Yeah.
- [34:08]
A
That is Air Force.
- [34:09]
B
So that was my first. I love the Air Force. Basic Jealous. Loadmaster training, physiology training. And then I got to go back to my unit, kind of check in and everything, and then drive back to Oklahoma for C5 specific loadmaster training. So it's like a two part.
- [34:25]
A
What's the nickname for the C5? Is it the Hercules?
- [34:29]
B
Well, we called it Fred. Freaking ridiculous Environmental disaster.
- [34:42]
C
All right, NCCs, we got a new acronym.
- [34:45]
B
Our squadron. So the C5 is the largest cargo plane in the United States military.
- [34:53]
A
Just for example. Like, what could you carry on a C5?
- [34:56]
B
Oh, goodness. Six Black Hawk helicopters. Six, six. So the load plan for that is very specific, as you might expect. And so if you don't have the nose of, you know, Bird one in the exact fuselage that you need it at, bird 6 will not fit. Right. So it's very specific. So go back to altis for the C5 specific training for that. And they put me in the. I was enlisted, but they put me in, like, the officer's hotel and the rest of the. Because again, I was coming from my reserve squadron and they didn't know where to put me. So I wasn't in the dorms with all of the kids in my class. I was literally like, I had like a kitchenette.
- [35:43]
A
They're just prepping you for that. Officer life.
- [35:46]
B
My room was cleaned twice a week.
- [35:49]
A
Wait, hold on. Your room was cleaned and not. You cleaned it twice a week?
- [35:53]
B
Correct? That is correct.
- [35:56]
A
Hashtag officer life. Let's go.
- [35:58]
B
Yeah, so that was pretty cool. And then after that, then I went to seer. And so then that was survival, escape. Evade training up in Washington State. And so I did, I had to do land and water.
- [36:15]
A
Yeah, it stands for, I believe, survive, evade, resist and then escape in that order. Like you're out there trying to survive and you're trying to evade being rolled up. If you get rolled up, you resist. Like you've got to resist that and you resist interrogation and all that stuff. And then part of the, part of the code to that school or just military code. Right. I know someone's going to correct me in the comments and I appreciate it. Thank you. Is you also it's expected of you is that you will escape at any time. Like you try to escape. As you never stop escaping. Like you escape, you get rolled up, you go back to it again. And so it's. It's a really cool schooling.
- [36:54]
C
And yeah, Tony, Tony talked about this a little bit now. Is that a. There's different tiers, I was going to say. Yeah, so different tiers for different levels.
- [37:02]
A
And so air crews is actually a little bit. It's not. It is different than the sear school that we would go through. And it's very specific to what an air crew.
- [37:12]
B
Exactly. Yeah. And they really. It's all, you know, based off of if your plane goes down behind enemy lines, what do you do? Right. Or you might know, you might not know if you're behind enemy lines or not. And you just kind of have to assume that and act in that way. And so it was pretty cool. We would get the kind of land based, classroom based training first of what you're supposed to do when you're out there, what to expect, how to do land nav, things like that. And it was kind of in a phased situation where first we would have instructors with us. Right. And then eventually one night they disappear. Dun dun dun. Yeah. And then basically you're going through your land nav and you're learning how to make fires and you have to kill a rabbit and skin it and cook it. Play little bunny foo foo with a rabbit skin maybe. Yeah.
- [38:02]
C
Make him puppets.
- [38:02]
B
Yeah. Yes, for sure.
- [38:04]
A
I mean you're at this point like almost a week of no food. So when you get your rabbit.
- [38:09]
B
Exactly. And then, yeah, it's not tasty, but it does the job. But without giving away everything. Right. Eventually you get rolled up. No matter what you do, they're gonna capture you and then off you go with a bag over your head. Off to some boxes and boots. Boots, exactly.
- [38:29]
C
Yeah.
- [38:29]
B
They play some crazy music and then you all take turns kind of getting tortured in various ways. And interrogated and whatnot. And, you know, you're in it, and they make it so realistic that you really get sucked in. But, you know, I knew going into it, okay, this is training, right? They can't. Yes, they can hurt you and things like that, but they can't really hurt you. So, unfortunately, I did kind of make a joke of it at one point. Like, I took it seriously, but I was being interrogated and this guy was slapping the bejesus out of me. Right. So they can't fist punch you, but they can open hand hit you a lot, and they tell you to grab your pocket.
- [39:15]
A
Like, for us, it was like, they say pockets, and you had to grab your pockets, and you knew that you were getting ready to get slapped.
- [39:21]
B
Oh, interesting. I don't recall that, but that makes sense because they probably didn't want you to hit back. Yes. Yeah, that makes sense.
- [39:29]
A
They might have just done it for our class because it was all seals.
- [39:32]
B
Probably.
- [39:32]
A
There was. It was literally all of Seal Team 3 and 5. Like, when we were brand new checking in.
- [39:37]
B
That had to have been way more intense.
- [39:39]
C
I would imagine you guys are the type of people that might have tried to hit back.
- [39:43]
A
Well, yeah, it was also. It's also regular fleet Navy guys doing it, so. Oh, we get to tune up some seals. Awesome. They also had to go admin because they couldn't roll us up. They couldn't find us. They had to go admin. They're like, all right. And then they rolled us up and, like, it was like, hey, if you don't come out, like, you're. You're not going to pass or anything. So they went admin, rolled us up, and then went straight to, like, slapping the crap out of us. And, dude, guys were like, cool, I'm going to. I'm going to find you on North Island. Guys were pissed. Sorry to interrupt.
- [40:11]
B
No, that's.
- [40:11]
A
It's just funny. The difference of the. The sear school. So some dude slapping the crap out of you.
- [40:16]
B
That is hilarious. I would not want to be the guy slapping the crap out of you, but, yeah, and he. He slapped me in the stomach at one point. And, I mean, a lot of it was. And I was just flexing on him, and I go, ooh, right in the baby maker. And this guy turned around and started, like, laughing mid interrogation and had to leave the room because he had to, like, recompose himself.
- [40:44]
A
What accents were they using? Were they acting like they were Russian?
- [40:47]
B
No, Middle East.
- [40:48]
A
Oh, you guys remember we had the Russians?
- [40:50]
B
Yeah, yeah. So that Was interesting. And then so then after that, then you go back to your squadron and then you do on the job training to get fully qualified. So this whole process is like over a year, you know, because then you go back and you have to do all these check rides to get qualified to be qualified Loadmaster. So that was the. The first stint in the Air Force, kind of. And then I'm qualified Loadmaster. And it's fun. I enjoyed it. Traveled the world. I got to spend time in some really cool places. Spain, Germany. I went to Hawaii a lot. I went to Guam, Korea, Thailand. Diego Garcia was one of my favorite places. Little Indian Ocean.
- [41:36]
A
That place is cool.
- [41:37]
B
Yeah. Place I'm not sure if you've heard of Kuwait City.
- [41:42]
A
Yeah, Sounds familiar.
- [41:43]
B
Yeah. Djibouti, Africa. A little bit of Iraq, a little bit of Afghanistan in there. And. Yeah. Travel the world for several years. And at the time, in the kind of height of the war, while you were also in the war, we were doing leapfrog missions. And so we were basically. You would just go out on blanketed orders for about anywhere from 21 to 30 days at a time, and you wouldn't have one specific commission where, you know, now it's, hey, you have this load and you're bringing it here, here, and then you come back. Well, we would just. The mission would travel with the plane, and the crews would go as far as they could until they had to go into crew rest and then wait for the next mission to come to them.
- [42:26]
C
Oh, wow.
- [42:27]
B
So that you just kind of don't stop. And so this was in like 2005, 6, 7. For those three years, pretty non stop. You would leave Travis Air Force Base, and if you're going downrange, then you would stop somewhere on the east coast to pick up a load, fuel, et cetera. Usually do in air refueling over the ocean.
- [42:48]
C
What's that like?
- [42:50]
B
That is pretty cool. So it was usually at night, which is even more bizarre. Right. And yeah, I mean, the pilots and the engineers did all the work. Right. As a Loadmaster, the only thing I had to do was reconfigure the weight of the plane for our landing center of gravity. So my part was really easy. They're the ones that had to line everything up and move the fuel.
- [43:15]
A
Were you doing that while they're loading with fuel, or did you wait for once the fuel was loaded, then you would shift the weight?
- [43:22]
B
Yeah.
- [43:22]
A
So that way it was within the measurements that it needed to be or the calculation so that it would be a safe landing.
- [43:29]
B
Yeah. Correct.
- [43:29]
A
I would wait till after and then were the pilots and engineers helping calculate, like, hey, this is how much fuel we have, this is how much we're going to burn, this is how much we'll have when we're landing. And then based off those numbers, then you make your adjustments.
- [43:42]
B
Yeah, so it's. There's kind of like a lot that would go into it. So at the beginning of a mission, I would know obviously what our dry weight was, what our payload was going to be for our load. And so then there's then separate calculations within that. So I would say I was loading tanks. Okay. And some pallets. So I would say the tanks need to be obviously potentially more in the center of the plane. Right. But if we're going for a different Runway length for takeoff, and we need our center of gravity to be a little bit more aft, that I would shift the weight a little bit more aft and then maybe put the pallets up front or vice versa if it's going to be a longer flight. Flight. And they want their landing Runway cgs to be a little bit different, their center of gravity. And then for each individual thing that went on the plane, you have to calculate how much needed to be used to tie that down with chains and or straps based off of the G forces in all different directions. So vertical, lateral, you know, forward, aft. And you would calculate that, and then you would have different weights of chains. So you'd have 25,000 pound rated chains, 10, 15 and 10,000 pound rated chains. And you would have your loadout configuration for the tanks, the helicopters, the humvees, the trucks, whatever went on it, and calculate, okay, this one needs maybe six forward, six aft, four lateral. And if it's sometimes on like tight loads, it would just be us. Or if we're going with a crew, there to be a group of army guys that would maybe be doing the chains. And then I would go around and measure them because then, you know, obviously you're only going to get £10,000 out of a £10,000 chain if it's exactly 180. Right. If it's straight out. But as soon as you change the angle of where it's tied down to that 45 degrees, then you reduce the tensile strength of that 10,000 pound chain. So then you're maybe only getting 7,500 pounds of G force pressure from that 10,000 pound chain. So you have to measure the length and the angle of each chain to make sure you're getting the appropriate. So you could say, hey, for this Helicopter. I need, you know, and I'm just making this number up. Yeah, yeah, Right. Say I need 10 25,000 pound chains and 10, 10,000 pound chains. And this many need to be lateral and this many need to be forward and aft. And then the guys set it up, but the angles are really steep. So then you might have enough because you need for 3G forces vertical. So you take the weight of the object and multiply it by three, and that's how much weight you need for vertical G forces. Does that make sense? Yes. Okay, so if you have all of the chains really steep, great. That helps you for your vertical G forces, but that doesn't help you for lateral. And you need two times for lateral and then 1.5 for forward and aft. And so you have to multiply it and then that's the max that you need. So say you have to keep it simple. A 10,000 pound vehicle, you need 30,000 this way, 20,000 this way. Right. And like 15,000 this way. And then you make sure you have enough chains in that direction. But if they're like really far at a steep angle. Good. Now you have your, your lateral G forces, but you have no vertical G forces accounted for. So. So it's balancing each individual item as well as the entire weight of the plane. So once you figure out where that object goes, then you have to worry about how it's being tied down.
- [47:26]
C
How long did it take you to, to load up? Like, obviously it would depend on how many items are going into, into the plane.
- [47:34]
B
Right, Exactly.
- [47:35]
C
But like, on, on average, if you're saying like, you're, you're having to do this, how long per item did it take you to get something like, properly loaded up? Because you're, what you're talking about is a really pretty complicated, like, for the, for the average person, like, what you're talking about. I'm like, I would just not put anything in a plane ever. I would, I would rather just say, you know what? Nothing gets to go into Fred. Fred's just going to go empty and we're just going to hang out and cruise because I'm not doing this much math.
- [48:02]
A
That's crazy.
- [48:03]
B
Yeah. So you, you eventually get pretty good at like guesstimating right after you do it enough, just like anything you pull out. So, you know, I would carry my wrenches and my tape measures and stuff to, to check to make sure everything was like cranked down tight and then measure the length and everything and that the hooks were in the proper direction. But, you know, say if you're just doing pallets. So the load configuration is going to be different, that you can get done in two hours. If you're doing six helicopters, it's probably six hours.
- [48:32]
C
Good night.
- [48:33]
B
So we would go out to do our job before the pilots and engineers. While they were doing their flight planning, we would go out and we had to learn how to basically turn on and operate the plane independently without them. So we would start the air turbine motors and the auxiliary power units to power everything, and then I would operate all of the hydraulics on the plane to open it, and we could actually tilt the plane based off of what we were putting on it.
- [48:55]
C
Oh, that's cool.
- [48:56]
B
Yeah. So the C5 is cool. It's the only plane right now for the US Military that opens the nose and the tail for loading. And they can be put in different configurations. So they can be put in what's called a truck loading configuration, where you have a flat ramp that just goes straight out like a loading dock, basically. And then they bring K loaders up with the pallets and. And we would marry them and then push the pallets from the K loader onto the plane. And then you'd flip these rollers and they get locked in the rollers. So these were preconfigured pallets that, like, you're probably familiar with.
- [49:27]
A
Yeah, that. Yeah, we would load those out. That's why I actually went to abbreviated version of the schooling as a load master in the teams, or load planner. Not a master load planner.
- [49:39]
B
Whatever.
- [49:39]
A
Whatever it is, load something. Right. Load planner, I believe where we had to go. And it was actually taught by the Air Force, and they taught us how to do this, myself, Hasbi and a few other guys from our task unit did that. And because that was part of our roles and responsibilities as new guys on our second platoon was building out pallets because the pallets had to be built out to your guys configuration so that they could be loaded and secured properly.
- [50:02]
B
Yeah, exactly. And so we would work with every branch. We would work with Navy, Army, Marines, God bless them. And they would more often than not configure their own pallets, especially Special Forces, because they didn't want us to know what was on it. And we would have it in the load plan. But really, it's up to you guys to know where your stuff is and how that all kind of goes. Right. So, yeah, so you can set one end of the plane up for the K loaders, and then that's where those pallets go. And then they lock into These rollers that locks on the sides. Those are easy. You're just pushing things on rollers, right? Locking them in place. Just make sure that you have the correct number in the correct spot. And then you can put also. And you can do that in the front or the back. And then you can also configure the front or the back for a ramp. And so you can bring out a ramp to drive stuff on and off. And then within that, we have built in winches on the plane. And then we also have this tool called a snatch. So, you know, just picture this, right? Early 2000s, only female. More often than not, on the crew, dealing with winches and snatches.
- [51:07]
A
Oh, geez.
- [51:12]
B
I'm just gonna let that marinate.
- [51:13]
A
That's awesome.
- [51:14]
B
So that. Yeah, so you can do that to kind of configure your pulley system. Like, maybe if you already have these two helicopters here, but your winch is here, then you can use your snatch to reroute your cables around those tires. So then you can pull the plane up, you know, onto a different side of the plane.
- [51:33]
C
That's very cool.
- [51:35]
B
You can fit school buses on there. Semi trucks. We would bring semi trucks on there that would have, you know, different things inside of it, you know, different flight planners, things like that for the military. And then we actually one time brought a C130, a whole other cargo plane, disassembled, take off the wings and the tail, and put the whole fuselage of the plane into our plane. There's some really cool pictures you can look up. It's like giving birth to another plane.
- [52:08]
C
That's insane.
- [52:10]
B
Yeah. And then there's one C. There's. I think there's two C5s that are configured. It's called the Scud model. It's a C5C model. So there's the A, the B, and then the C model that. The troop compartment was completely removed in the back. So in addition to the cargo box, there's the troop compartment, which can hold 73 troops and two loadmasters, has two ovens, two bathrooms, two refrigerators. I would set up my pulley system back there for, like, lifting during long flights on the grates. But the C model has that completely removed. And then the back doors, instead of opening kind of laterally more like the C5 normally did. It, like, accordioned all the way out so you could put the Titan 4 missile in it, which is pretty cool.
- [53:02]
A
That's unreal. Yeah, I know you're looking that up.
- [53:05]
C
So there's one with the. With the front Opened up the way that that comes off.
- [53:11]
B
Yeah.
- [53:11]
C
That's absolutely insane. And then here is. There's one with a C17 coming out of it.
- [53:20]
B
Other C130. This one.
- [53:23]
C
There you go.
- [53:25]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [53:25]
A
C5 versus C17.
- [53:27]
B
Yeah, yeah. The C17's up in the sky there.
- [53:30]
C
That is crazy.
- [53:32]
B
Yeah. So the C17 is also a large cargo plane, but is definitely smaller. It does not have the troop compartment, and it's like a Roche smaller as far as being narrow, but it's a little bit more tactical. It can land on shorter runways and stuff like that and do a little bit more maneuverability.
- [53:51]
A
Eric flew the C17, 130 and the 5. Right.
- [53:53]
B
So he did not fly the 5. He flew the 130, the 141, and then they retired the 141 and brought out the C17, and then he flew that.
- [54:01]
A
The C17 is what he flew me overseas on my first deployment on.
- [54:04]
B
Got it. Yep.
- [54:05]
C
My uncle flew you on your first deployment?
- [54:08]
A
Yeah, he picked up the mission.
- [54:09]
B
Yeah.
- [54:09]
C
That's freaking cool.
- [54:11]
A
Yeah, it was pretty. Pretty cool story.
- [54:13]
B
Some pretty cool stories of, like, our families meshing in the military. So this is good, because this is.
- [54:19]
C
One of the questions that I've got on here.
- [54:21]
B
Yeah.
- [54:21]
C
Yeah.
- [54:21]
B
So one time I was doing a loadout in Japan, and I was the load master in charge. And so I'm. I have my army guys come up, and I'm telling everyone where I want everything to go and the chains and blah, blah, blah, and kind of the group and everyone kind of disperses and starts to do their jobs, and I'm standing up on the side. I would frequently, like, stand on the catwalk to, like, see what everyone was doing, because I was like. And there's all these, like, big army dudes around, and they didn't want to listen unless I was, like, standing tall and yelling. Anyway, adds up. And then I look over, and there's Colby Brush, our cousin, who was in Japan.
- [54:58]
C
Nice.
- [54:59]
B
And he was tracking my tail when I was coming in. And we ended up being late and going somewhere else. And I was, you know, at the time, actually, we didn't have cell phones that were working overseas. You know, you would have to go to the Internet cafe to send an email or. Wild times in the early 2000s, kids.
- [55:15]
C
I'm telling you, insane.
- [55:17]
A
Wild, wild west.
- [55:18]
B
Wild, wild west.
- [55:19]
A
Flip phone, Razor, Napster.
- [55:21]
B
Exactly. Oh, yeah. And, yeah, there's Colby Brush on my plane.
- [55:26]
C
That's so cool.
- [55:26]
B
It was very cool.
- [55:27]
A
Yeah.
- [55:28]
B
So we got to hang out For a little bit, which is really cool. And then another time, I was. I think I was. Was coming or going to, like, Guam or Thailand or something, but stopped in Hawaii first, and Carolyn was leaving, and we, like, exchanged a six pack on the tarmac. Like, crossing paths on the tarmac.
- [55:54]
A
Dude, that is awesome.
- [55:56]
C
So you said you were in and flying in 0506, kind of that. That time. That's around the same time that you.
- [56:06]
B
Exactly.
- [56:06]
A
This is my first platoon. Second platoon.
- [56:08]
C
Yeah. Yeah. So as. As those things are. Are happening, like, what. What's that like for y'?
- [56:15]
B
All?
- [56:16]
C
Like, are you communicating? Are you. Like, how much can you let each other know about, you know, what you're doing? Are you least sending the messages of, like, hey, like, I'm good. Are you good?
- [56:28]
A
I mean, like, yeah, general emails, like, vague emails, but there was never. Because that's a big thing, especially back then in the military. Like, you're not talking about where you're flying or what you're doing, because if any of that was to get out.
- [56:42]
B
Yeah.
- [56:42]
A
You know, so, like, so we never talked about any of that stuff.
- [56:46]
C
So a lot of people that I know are. Are pretty, like, after they come home, they. They talk about, you know, a lot of the. The places that they've been, but they're definitely more open with other people that served than they are with. With civilians. Because there's camaraderie there, common experiences, those. Those types of things. And even there, there's a different degree of it if you find somebody, even if they're part of a different division of the military branch of the military, that if. If there's two people who saw combat. Right. It doesn't really matter. I say saw combat in combat zones, that the camaraderie that they have is even more so than maybe somebody from their own branch that didn't. Right. Because there's all these different things. Your shared experiences and all of that stuff are vastly different in each of those different contexts. That said, both of y' all are serving at the same time, both very different missions in support of the United States as it relates to your specific branches and the theaters that you were in. Like, how much when, you know, y' all are getting together for family events and things like that, how much have your conversations changed from when you were active duty and maybe you're seeing each other? I don't know how often? Maybe once a year or maybe. Maybe less. How do those conversations change between, like, hey, neither one of us can really talk about anything that we're doing Glad to see you that you're safe. How's everything going to now, you know, where you've got families and you're at a much different place in life where you're, you're having those same conversations or do they even happen?
- [58:33]
B
I don't think they really come up.
- [58:36]
A
Yeah, we, yeah, we never really talked about it back then. It was more of like, when we saw each other, it was just, I mean, I guess whatever was going on in life, we talk about.
- [58:46]
B
Yeah.
- [58:46]
A
And then now it's, yeah, me. Like, when I picked up her and Brian and Mike from the airport the other day, I was just wanting to learn about, like, all right, cool. Your current job, like, what do you. Like, what, okay, what are you doing in the Air Force now? And you know, like, I understood kind of like what she was doing, but I didn't really know. And so it's just more of. Yeah, I don't, I don't think we've ever really dove deep into any of those conversations. I don't know if that's good or bad, but it was just, it was just us. Yeah.
- [59:17]
B
And even then, I think it's like you don't really, at least for me, you don't really understand. You don't really understand, like, the impact of what you're doing when you're doing it.
- [59:28]
A
Oh, 100%.
- [59:29]
B
You're just kind of in it, you know, which is, I guess, hard to explain. But, you know, thinking back, some of the, like, missions I went on is so, so different from what, you know, JP and other people were doing. But even at the time, I didn't actually really understand the impact. You know, I was 19 years old and, you know, I'm going through this training of, okay, you're gonna, you're gonna look out this window and let us know when a rocket's coming at the plane and tell us which way to turn. This is true story. This is how it was done. Right. And so part of my job at 19 years old, we were just talking about the responsibility of 19 year old kids nowadays was to be posted at my window when we're leaving combat zones and look for red squiggly rockets coming at us and be able to tell them what kind of squiggly rocket it was so they could deploy the flares or turn the plane and then when we would land at our next location, go into a locked room with no phones and explain to the guys what squiggly red rockets I saw. Right. And we literally, we would go through training of this too, before we would get signed off of, like, you're watching these, like, video games and learning about the different rockets and the different guns that are coming at your plane and stuff, and how to call which way it's coming and things like that, for them to deploy the flares and, you know, and that happened a few times, and we had engines go out and various things and. But I literally never thought to even bring it up at the time. That was just what I was doing.
- [61:07]
A
Your job.
- [61:07]
B
That was my job.
- [61:09]
C
Which. This is the thing that's crazy to me because so many of the people that I know that do serve, they're like, oh, I just did my job. This was my job. This was my job. Meanwhile, Right. Those of us who aren't in service, all we talk about with each other is our jobs. You know, it's like, hey, hey, what? Hey, what'd you do at work? It's like, oh, I had this weird lug nut that I was messing with. Or, you know, like, you know, the two by four order was bad. And so everybody's, like, talking about all of these weird things that happen at. At work. Is it. I had a bad sell in my Excel sheet, and it's just ruined things for the whole quarter and it's. It took six of us to get through it. Meanwhile, you guys are identifying squigglies. Like, it's back in, you know, masters of the airtime and trying to tell people which way to go. At 19 years old, you are camping out on rooftops. Y' all get together and you're like, hey, how's it going? How's work? Oh, just did my job.
- [62:02]
B
Yeah. I think when we would get together, we would just talk about, like, oh, who are you dating? Yeah, let's go get a beer.
- [62:08]
A
Yeah.
- [62:08]
B
I don't know.
- [62:09]
C
Which is just. It's so.
- [62:12]
A
Yeah.
- [62:12]
C
It's just so different than, you know, than. Than a lot of the rest of the world operates. And this is one of the things that I think for people in my position, it's so fascinating about the whole thing.
- [62:25]
A
Yeah, I know. It's actually something that Sarah's gonna get into, or at least we talked about it and she wants to. Cool. If not, then we don't have to, but just, like, dealing with, like, trauma. And I wouldn't say, like, what she was just saying is, like, trauma, but I don't. I don't think the military does a good job at teaching people how to, like, just talk through stuff. Yeah. And navigate it. It's not like we had traumatic things that we had to share with each other, but we also just didn't talk about stuff. Yeah. And I think some, some of the things is like, Like I never wanted to talk to my sister about like, what I saw and like what I dealt with. Like, I just didn't want, you know, like, I, I barely talked to like my aunt C.J. about it. And she was a trauma nurse, right. Like a flight surgeon or. Not a flight surgeon.
- [63:24]
B
Flight nurse.
- [63:24]
A
A flight nurse. And she actually dealt with a lot of trauma. Yeah, yeah. The trauma that Aunt C.J. dealt with on deployments is just unreal. She actually, I believe I'm saying this correctly, unless I fabricated this in my brain, but I think she's even worked on like team guys that were injured overseas on flights.
- [63:44]
B
It's very possible.
- [63:46]
A
And so like, I, like, I didn't even really talk to her about like a lot of the stuff. I talked to Uncle Eric a little bit, but like, I never, like, I just, and that was my thing is like, I didn't want to like talk to my little sister about those things. And maybe I should have. Maybe I shouldn't have. Like, I don't know. It's one of those things. It's like, dude, that was like 20 years ago. But I think that's part of also maybe like both of us because like, you know, just for her as a 19 year old female, like doing all those like trips and back to back and the op tempo, I mean, it's awesome. It obviously built resilience for her and just, you know, being able to experience that as a, as a 19 year old female, like, or just let on any, any human. Right. Young man, young woman. I think that's, it's a good thing for you to be able to learn because you learn how to deal with adversity and be flexible and like, okay, cool. Hey, something's not going the way I wanted to. Like, all right, I'm going to have to adapt.
- [64:45]
B
Yeah, for sure.
- [64:46]
A
Which there's been the story of your life, like, as we're getting ready to get into, because you know, you're enlisted in the military, you're doing this, but you still have the desire to become a surgeon. And so what are the, like, so what are some of the next steps of deployments? Military getting out or you stay in the reserves and then you know your path.
- [65:05]
B
Yeah. So. So once things kind of slow down a little bit, I went to true reserve status, which is just, you know, one weekend a month, two weeks a year.
- [65:15]
C
Oh, I've heard the commercials.
- [65:16]
B
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
- [65:19]
A
Best kept secret out there.
- [65:21]
B
Yeah, for sure. And I had already done right two and a half years of college and I still wanted to go into medical school, but I was still kind of back to maybe there's a quicker way and I kind of lost sight. And I was doing personal training at the time and so I guess kind of skipping around a little bit. I at this time moved to Pennsylvania and I had an Interfly agreement with Dover, so I would still sometimes fly back to Travis to do my mandatory flights and stuff like that. But then I also got an Interfly agreement with Dover Air Force Base and so I could just drive down and do flights with them to maintain my flight status and training and was doing personal training and then started physical therapy assistant school, which is normally a three year program, but since I already had all of the, you know, science classes, math, anatomy, stuff like that done, I just had to take the physical therapy specific courses. So then it only took me one year and it was at Central Pennsylvania College and that was a four day a week program. And then I would have a three day weekend every weekend that I could either go fly or work or whatever. And so I did personal training. Sometimes in the morning I had a few clients and then would go to school and then go to the gym in the afternoon. And then, you know, being add then I started like serving as a waitress at Carrabba's. Ended up starting a personal training business outside of being at LA Fitness. And so I did both of those and then I was doing competitions for women's figure bodybuilding competitions to kind of just, you know, keep me involved in that. Why not? So I did my first couple competitions out there in Pennsylvania and as on par with my theme, I had no idea what I was doing. I just like we didn't have really a lot of training and I just found some videos of like how people were posing and I was like, sure, I can figure this out. And I obviously knew how to like work out and nutrition and stuff like that, but got up there, had no idea how to pose. So I ended up getting second place in all of my competitions. And afterwards talked to some of the judges and you look at some of these pictures and not to sound vain, but like I looked way better, better than a lot of these girls. But my posing, it's the attention to detail, right? Like I didn't know how to present myself properly. And so I learned a lot from that, which was really good, really humbling and I guess to get kind of Back on track with, like career wise was did the physical therapy assistant degree, which is a three year associate in applied science. Finished that in one year because I already had all the prereqs done, which is really cool. And so then I thought I wanted, that's what I wanted to do instead of, you know, being a doctor maybe. Oh, this will kind of satisfy my desire for being in the medical field. And it's, you know, kind of a build on personal training and kind of could fulfill all of that desires. And then as soon as I graduated that ended up moving back to California and started flying right away again. Got put back on active duty orders. I was still in reserve squadron, but got put back on active duty orders. Started flying a lot again and was going to try to go back to school. Didn't really work out because I know I was flying so much. Did that for another year and a half and then had my daughter Erin, and then we decided me and her dad to move to Florida for a job opportunity that he had and so moved to Southern Florida. We lived there for one year and I ended up doing aquatic physical therapy in the Boca Raton area, which was cool. So it was a combination. I would spend three days a week in the water and two days a week on land. And so aquatic physical therapy is really good for patients who are wheelchair bound, have back issues, nerve damage, things like that. And just the weight of gravity is too much and too painful for them to get their range of motion. And so you bring them into a deep salt water pool and you can get some amazing range of motion. Cardiovascular workouts, things like that.
- [69:46]
C
Are you using like equipment in there as well? Because like, I've seen some, some stuff on videos that have to do with physical therapy and things like that where they've got like underwater treadmills that they've got people on and those kinds of things. Are you using that type of equipment with the aquatic therapy that you were doing?
- [70:02]
B
You can, but I did not. Ours, we did all one on one sessions and it was all hands on. Okay. So some of the equipment I did use was mostly just for manipulation of joints and things like that, but otherwise it was all just water resistance. And I would do spinal manipulations in the water too.
- [70:21]
C
Oh, wow.
- [70:22]
B
Yeah. To put traction on the spine, to kind of open up the facet joints and take the pressure off the nerve roots.
- [70:28]
C
That's really cool.
- [70:29]
B
Yeah. And then eventually you would graduate patients from water to land and would do that as well. So did that for a year. And then the time Came for us to leave Florida. And I had never been to Annapolis, Maryland before, but her dad was able to go back into the reserves at Dover. And so we knew we wanted to be in that general area. At this point, I was getting more headstrong of I need to go back to school. While I love working in physical therapy, I still want to go to medical school. And so the DC, Maryland area has a very high concentration of hospitals, schools, things like that. So it worked out. And actually I had a phone interview with the hospital I ended up getting hired on at and it worked out really well and moved to Annapolis, Maryland, which where now I've lived there for 15 years.
- [71:23]
A
That's crazy.
- [71:24]
B
Yeah. And so we moved up there and I was working at Anne Arundel Medical center as a licensed physical therapy assistant. And I immediately went back to school at night to work on finishing my bachelor's. And what's great is the hospital had a tuition reimbursement program where if you were getting a degree that worked towards your career field, your manager could basically sign off on your report card and submit it to HR for tuition reimbursement after the classes. And I was not going back to school school to get my doctorate in physical therapy. I was going back to school to get my bachelor's in science for psychology and behavioral neuroscience as part of my pre med requirements. And they're like, well, that's technically not in our career trajectory, but we want you to go to medical school, so we're going to sign off on it.
- [72:21]
C
That's awesome.
- [72:22]
B
Yeah.
- [72:22]
C
Jinx.
- [72:23]
B
Yeah. So they were really amazing. They really worked with me on helping me adjust my schedule. And so I was working initially 410 hour shifts so that I could have then 3 days to do school. Right. So I would work Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday, and then Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday would consolidate all of my classes in college for. Because I had to go back and do the higher level like quantum physics, organic chemistry and calculus and microbiology were like my last classes that I needed to finish.
- [72:53]
A
And how old is Aaron at this point?
- [72:55]
B
She was almost 2.
- [72:58]
C
And this is typically a rude question to ask, but how old are you at this point?
- [73:03]
B
I was 25.
- [73:06]
C
Is it intimidating as a mom of a toddler to go back to school?
- [73:14]
B
Yeah.
- [73:15]
C
How intimidating is it to then go back to school when you're in your mid-20s? Because there are a lot of really intelligent people that I know that the reason that they're avoiding going back is because they're like, I don't want to be the old person in class, I.
- [73:30]
B
Think, like, that's, you know, I think we worry more about ourselves than other people do.
- [73:37]
A
Valid.
- [73:38]
B
I was in classes with people of all ages, and never was I like, why are you here? I never thought that. Right? Like, literally never was I like, ooh, why are you taking chemistry? GROSS. You're, like, 30. No, like, that doesn't happen. We only care about ourselves because we're so egocentric. It's the egocentric.
- [74:01]
C
I hate everything she just said. Yeah, I know, I know.
- [74:06]
B
It's bad. It's true, though, right?
- [74:07]
A
It's so true.
- [74:09]
C
May find out here soon.
- [74:11]
B
So. But no, it was. It was fine. You know, it's just. I had a moment that really just resonated with me when My daughter turned 1, and I was like, wow, look at all she's done this last year. What have I done? At that point in her first year of, like, when she had turned one, I wasn't in college. I wasn't working three jobs. I wasn't doing all of these other things right. I was. Not that there's anything wrong with it. I was raising her. There's nothing wrong with that. But for somebody who was normally very ambitious and had all these goals that I just, like, put to a halt, loved having that opportunity to be with her. No better job than being a mother. But it's like, look at everything she's done in a year. When a kid falls down, they don't just stay down. They don't think about it. They don't think, oh, I'm embarrassed. Somebody just saw me fall down. They don't think, that's it. I'm just not going to walk anymore. It's too hard. I give up. I fell. I tripped. I'm done walking because somebody saw me fall. No, they get back up and start running. They don't even get up and start walking slowly and timidly while looking around and caring what everybody else thinks. They fall down and. And they get up and start running. And I fell down and I was gonna let myself stay down, Right. And so when she turned one, I said, nope, I'm not gonna care what other people think. That, oh, you told us you were gonna do this and that, and now you're changing your mind. So what? So what? You're allowed to change your mind. You're allowed to get back up and start running. And so when I. When she was one and a half, moved to Maryland, and I got back up and I started running, I went to school full time. I was taking six classes at a Time while working full time and taking care of my daughter as a single mom. Her dad was there helping, obviously, but it was very different. I had no family in Maryland, completely isolated, and I just kept running. And so I finished my bachelor's, finished my pre med classes, signed up for an MCAT prep course with the Princeton Review. Took that at night. God bless one of my friends at the hospital. She would babysit Erin for free so that I could go to my night classes for a few hours, and then took that. The first time I took the mcat, which is the Medical College Admissions test, I did not do very well. Wasn't a great test taker, but I.
- [77:00]
C
Said, yeah, I mean, you never had to do it. Your grades are always good enough to where your English teacher was telling everybody you're going to.
- [77:05]
B
Yeah, exactly.
- [77:05]
C
Yeah, you don't have to take the test. You're good enough.
- [77:10]
B
My organic chemistry final, actually, I didn't have to take that either because I already had.
- [77:14]
C
This is humble brag.
- [77:17]
B
He's like, if you have this question, like, you don't have to show up for the final because it's not going to change your grade. But that's because it was.
- [77:25]
C
I didn't spell organic chemistry confidently. She didn't have to take the final.
- [77:28]
A
You used talk to text.
- [77:30]
B
Yeah, but it's because I was interested and motivated in those classes. Fun fact. I got a C in public speaking. I got a C in art history.
- [77:41]
A
I mean, that's a super valid class, though.
- [77:44]
C
Art history.
- [77:45]
A
The history of art.
- [77:46]
B
Yeah, I got a C in those classes because I didn't care. I didn't study. I didn't show up. I was like, this is dumb.
- [77:52]
A
You still gotta see.
- [77:53]
B
And I gotta see.
- [77:54]
C
Listen, I would have given you my math homework and you could have given me your art history homework, and we would have both made the President's list.
- [77:59]
B
Crazy. That would have been amazing. Yeah. So, yeah, so that's how I transitioned to that. And I retook the mcat, did better. And I kind of, you know, went back and forth with some issues with. So I applied to medical school my first round, and I was very ignorant in what I was doing. I just didn't know enough about how the applications worked. I only applied to, like, five places, and they're all very top tier and in the local area. And my application is all over the place. I was never your traditional. I went to high school, I went to college, and now I'm applying for med school. Right. That's. Most people in medical school, you Needed.
- [78:39]
A
The extended pages when you're filling out your stuff.
- [78:41]
B
Yeah. And they're probably like, what is happening here? All these gaps. Right. And then all of my classes are from three different colleges, all kind of pieced together. So it's. It was not the traditional package that most people would want. And so I got wait listed, which is, you know, not a straight admission. It's not a straight. No. But I was impatient and I was shadowing some of the surgeons at the hospital that I was working at to get letters of recommendation and just get more exposure in the operating room. And actually one of them suggested that I apply to this one particular Caribbean school. And I had not wanted to initially because a lot of Caribbean schools get a bad rap for maybe not being very well accredited or not producing legitimate doctors, things like that. And there are unfortunately some of those out there. But he explained to me, well, there are some bad ones. But he said, these top three ones are legitimate. They are actually accredited where you can get federal funding. You do all of your clinical rotations in the United States. And he said, we hire doctors from this school on a regular basis. He said, there's just not enough seats in US Medical schools. So he's like, these are legit. He's like, you can still get a job here when you come back, even if you go to this Caribbean school. Okay, I'll trust you. Great. I applied and, you know, it was a hard decision because at the time, my daughter was five, turning six, and basically, you know, shortly after her six, she's six and a half when I ended up leaving the country. And that was a really hard decision because I couldn't take her with me. So I didn't want to go at first. The first time I got accepted, I threw it in the trash because me and her dad were not on the same page with what was going to happen with custody and things like that. And it wasn't worth it to me. And then I said, well, I still want to use my degree. So I was actually signed up to go, you know, I was going to go back into the Air Force as an intel officer actually. And her dad and I discussed, and he actually said, well, you know, if you're going to go away for training for intel school and officer training, you might as well just go to medical school if you're going to do that and go away anyway. And so I said, okay, as long as we could have an agreement on custody and things like that. And so, long story short, I did. So I went to Ross University, which At the time was in Dominica, Southern Caribbean. Cool little island. Since then, unfortunately, there's been a series of storms that like, wiped out the campus a few times and they could no longer rebuild it, so they transferred the school to Barbados.
- [81:39]
C
Another just terrible place.
- [81:41]
B
I know, right? Yeah. So Dominica was a cool area of the Caribbean, but, you know, definitely third world. So, you know, you didn't always have power and water and things like that when storms would come through. Mm, yep. So people were like, oh, you're in the Caribbean. That's great. I'm like, yeah, I trying to do.
- [82:02]
A
Med or pre med.
- [82:03]
B
Right? No, this was now in medical school.
- [82:05]
A
Yeah. Okay. Yeah, you're trying to do med school dealing with no power.
- [82:08]
B
Yeah. I studied for a test once with a flashlight. But, you know, hey, here we are.
- [82:15]
A
Make excuses, things happen.
- [82:16]
B
Yep. So I got to medical school first week. I had reserved a, like, campus room and it was supposed to be cheaper, short term. And then eventually you move off campus. I get there and it's first week. The first week, they purposely just kind of slam you with classes and then you have your first test. It's a very small percentage of your overall grade, but they want to test how you're doing being acclimated to medical school and probably like a wake up call. Right.
- [82:46]
A
Do you think it's smart?
- [82:47]
B
Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. But here's what happened. My first week of medical school, I get to the island, I get to my new dorm room basically, and I'm like, okay, this isn't that bad. Going to make the most of it. I go to the little, like, store on the island to get little things for my room and I get some bug spray and start cleaning it and stuff like that. And cockroaches come flying out of the cracks of my walls.
- [83:17]
C
Oh, no.
- [83:19]
B
Yeah, just like from both sides. After I sprayed, I was like, ah, freaked out. And I leave and then I come back in and I'm trying to clean everything up and I can't. There's just cockroaches everywhere. I was like, I can't sleep here.
- [83:37]
C
Like, are they alive or dead?
- [83:38]
B
Alive. They're just.
- [83:40]
C
You didn't just, like, light a match and throw it into the room, Right.
- [83:43]
B
I should have.
- [83:44]
C
Like, what happened? I don't know. I don't know what happened.
- [83:47]
B
Yeah, I should have. It was horrible. And so I was like, I can't. I can't live here. I can't like, focus, study, like all this stuff. Right. And so I met a girl who lived off campus up a hill Rented for some local civilians. And she's like, actually, like, the apartment next to mine is for rent. She's like, it's a good deal. I paid, like 400 US a month and utilities. And there was a house cleaner three times a week that would come in, like, sweep and mop and clean the bathrooms.
- [84:20]
C
You're back in the officers.
- [84:22]
B
I know, right? Yeah. The only caveat is it was a mile from campus and literally, like, up this huge hill. I was like, fine. No factor.
- [84:30]
A
Awesome.
- [84:30]
B
Let's do it.
- [84:31]
C
So carried plane doors heavier than this. I'm fine.
- [84:34]
B
Yeah, it'll be fine. So I get some of the poor friends that I just met. These poor souls volunteered to help me move my stuff. And so they're carrying my roller bags and all of my stuff. Stuff, like, up this hill and it just starts pouring rain. Like, you don't even see it. And it doesn't make any sense. You look up and the sky is blue and you're just drenched. Like, where is the rain coming from? It's bizarre. And we get. Whatever, fine. Get the stuff in my apartment. And then I'm trying to, like, focus. We have this test coming up. And then in the next two days, before my first big test in med school, I get a call from my boyfriend at the time, Brian, that Aaron's dad filed for full custody and was filing, you know, a custody suit against me. I got served with papers. And then the next day, I got a call that my mom was in the hospital for a very serious thing that I won't discuss, and I just broke down. And then the next day, I had my first test of medical school, and I failed. Completely failed. And I just broke down. I was like, what am I doing here? I'm done. I don't belong here. This is a joke. I'm ruining my life. I'm ruining everyone else's life. I'm done. I'm in a third world country with cockroaches and monsoons or whatever. My daughter's being taken away from me. My mom's in the hospital. I can't do anything about anything. And it was just a disaster. I didn't know what I was doing there. I didn't think I belonged there. I shouldn't have been there. So that was really hard to deal with. But to make a long story short, I talked to everybody, and everyone told me to stay. And my now husband at the time helped me deal with all of the legal issues with my daughter.
- [86:40]
A
And how long had you guys been dating at this point?
- [86:45]
B
Like, Eight or nine months.
- [86:49]
A
So at a point where like, most guys would probably been like, I don't know if I'm wanting to do all this.
- [86:57]
B
Yeah.
- [86:58]
C
Oh, actually, especially over distance.
- [87:00]
B
Yeah. Well, before I left for medical school, I love Brian. I actually tried to break up with him twice. Love you, babe.
- [87:10]
A
Because you didn't want him because of that.
- [87:11]
B
Yeah. This isn't what he signed up for. So at the time, I had a really sweet deal. I was doing home health, physical therapy, assistant work. I was done by 3:30 every day, would pick my daughter up from school. I was making dinner every night, going to the gym. That's who he started dating. And then I'm like, hey, I'm going back to school in another country. And then I knew from that point I knew I was going to medical school to be a surgeon. I was like, this is not an easy life you're signing up for. And he's like, I don't care. It's too late, I'm in it. And then like a week later, I tried to have the conversation again, to be like, this is probably not the life for you, you know, like. And he's like, that's not for you to decide.
- [87:54]
C
Good man.
- [87:55]
B
Yeah. And so, yeah, so I talked to everybody. Everything got dealt with. My family took care of my mom, so I knew she was safe and everything was going to be okay. And I even talked to Erin, poor, like six year old. And I asked her, do you want mommy to come home? I will come home if you tell me to. And she said, no, Mommy, you need to be a doctor at 6 years old. And so I stayed. So I went to. They had an amazing support at Ross University. They set me up with counseling and a tutor. And the counselor was extremely helpful because he just like, really helped me focus on what I could give my attention to, you know, and what I could choose to separate myself from, you know. And the tutor really helped break down some of the concepts for me that I was struggling with because studying for medical school is very different than anything I had to do. Prior school before medical school was very easy for me. I just showed up and it made sense. I was very blessed. Honestly, a lot of stuff made sense.
- [89:05]
A
You and Corey have always been like that at school.
- [89:07]
B
Like, yeah, but medical school is different. It's like drinking from a fire hose. And I had to learn how to prioritize things and use my time effectively to really get these concepts in. And so that was just super helpful. And I went on and fast forward four years, I ended up Actually graduating with honors. So that first little test meant nothing.
- [89:33]
C
Stunned by that news. Yeah.
- [89:36]
B
But I could have. I could have given up so many times.
- [89:39]
A
Yeah.
- [89:40]
B
And I wanted to.
- [89:43]
A
But you didn't let that. That first failure dictate what you were going to do.
- [89:47]
B
Correct.
- [89:47]
A
You took control.
- [89:48]
B
Yep.
- [89:49]
A
Reassessed, reprioritized. Came up with a plan and just started working the plan, Correct.
- [89:55]
B
Yep.
- [89:55]
A
And the plan wasn't perfectly executed because you had to make, you know, changes and adjustments along the way.
- [90:02]
B
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So I learned a new way to study. I learned a new way to prioritize, and it worked out well. And then. Yeah, then I matched the match. Process for residency is a bizarre system in the United States. So when you graduate medical school, everyone's a doctor. Right. But what kind of doctor are you going to be? You go to residency for your specialty training, and so how that works is a match for process. And so it's kind of like speed dating. Ish.
- [90:35]
C
That's always worked out well.
- [90:36]
B
Yeah.
- [90:36]
C
I've been watching Love on the Spectrum. They tried the speed dating thing. That's my only frame of reference for it.
- [90:44]
B
Yeah.
- [90:44]
A
Slightly different. Yeah.
- [90:46]
B
Okay, cool. And so you. You send out these applications to your. What specialty you want to go to. You get offered interviews. Our class was the last class before COVID that physically had to go to every interview interview. So I had to physically fly to 13 different hospitals around the country to interview.
- [91:02]
C
Are you paying for all those flights?
- [91:04]
B
Yes. And then since COVID happened the year after, and since then, everything's been virtual interviews. So now people don't have to fly around the country. Oh, right. Because Zoom kind of reorganized how everything happens.
- [91:16]
A
Must be nice.
- [91:17]
C
No joke.
- [91:18]
A
That line is for you, Josh Straussberger.
- [91:20]
C
Yeah. All of those people get to say five things. Thousand dollars. Not going to all of these interviews because they turn on their laptop.
- [91:27]
A
13 different cities that you're flying to for insanity. Plus hotel.
- [91:33]
B
Plus hotel. Absolutely. Uber.
- [91:36]
C
You did, like, take out. Did you have to take out a loan, or is this part of, like, your student loans?
- [91:40]
B
That I did. I used part of my student loans for it.
- [91:43]
C
Yeah, no doubt about it.
- [91:44]
B
Yeah. It was insane. And you have to wear, like, a suit, be dressed up the entire time. You know, it's like, the whole thing. So you go. You, like, tour the hospital, you get all of these speeches from people, and then you go on these interviews. And it's not just like, a one interview. It's usually like five in a row. And it's literally like speed dating. It's like you go out a door and you knock and you like wait for them to bring you in. And then the clock starts and you have like 15 minutes and then somebody knocks on the door and you have to leave and then go to the next door and then they grade you and then they rank you and then you rank the places that you interviewed at.
- [92:22]
A
Okay.
- [92:23]
B
And so then at the end of the interview season, you put your rank system into a computer and then you have to lock it and then you can't change it.
- [92:31]
A
Really?
- [92:32]
B
Yeah. And then they rank the applicants and then this all goes into this computer algorithm to match up and it's, you know, goes based off of. So it goes to my number one choice. If they matched me number one, it's a match you both swiped right. Then it goes down the algorithm. So some people will be like, I matched, but I got my 10th choice or I didn't match. And then they enter a scramble where people are fighting for free spots that didn't get matched.
- [93:03]
A
If somebody doesn't match, is that kind of like a bad thing?
- [93:08]
B
It is a bad thing.
- [93:09]
A
Is it like a bad sign? Meaning that, like, hey, our perspectives are just completely different. What you thought you want, what you think what you want, versus what we see what we want.
- [93:20]
B
I think so, yeah. It's unfortunate. I know some people who were very good applicants, but they either did not interview well or they were unrealistic in their matching, like in their rank system that they wanted. Correct. So if you're only going to rank Ivy League places at the top, but you're not Ivy League.
- [93:46]
A
Quality.
- [93:47]
B
Quality, whatever. Right. Then that's pretty unrealistic. Or some people are really good on paper. They have the best test scores. So once you're in medical school, you take three more tests. The United States Medical Licensing Exam, usmle. There's step one, step two and step three. Step one, you take between your second and third year before you go on clinicals. So the first two years of medical school are all book classroom. The third and fourth years are clinicals, doing rotations in the hospitals. Between that, you take the USMLE step one, that gives you a score. And then in your third to fourth year you take the USMLE step two. And that's actually used to be a two part when I took it. Step two, clinical skills and clinical knowledge. A written test, nine hours. An in person test, nine hours and the night. Yeah, it's a fun two days. And so I had to go up to Philly to take the clinical skills portion. And it's 13 patient rooms in a row. And it's a patient encounter. And these are like hired actors that would. They would have some sort of pathology diagnosis. And then you have a time in there, you do your exam, you come out and you have to get on a computer, put your differential diagnosis, what test you want to order, and like a note. And it's all like a timed thing and a character count. And so then that was the third exam, the step 2Cs. And then once you passed, all of that, all of that goes to your application package for residency. And then once you're in residency, you take the USMLE step three. And that is the final test to be an independent physician for your md. Like, once you're an md, to be an independent physician. And then residency for general surgery is five years. For some places it's six if they do a research year in between.
- [95:40]
A
Did you originally want to do general surgery?
- [95:43]
B
I originally wanted to do neurosurgery.
- [95:47]
A
And what was your reasoning for switching?
- [95:50]
B
So my reasoning for switching was actually, so when I did, sorry, Dr. Burke, if you're listening, but when I did my neurosurgery rotation, it was a lot more boring than I expected compared to the general surgery rotation. Now, don't get me wrong, neurosurgery is still fun. I still like to do some craniotomies every once in a while, but who.
- [96:13]
C
Doesn'T love a, you know, craniotomy every now and then?
- [96:15]
B
Yeah, but it was plate operation, like the same. It was a lot of spine surgery, which is really interesting, very, very helpful. But that and orthopedics, to me, it was a little monotonous. Personally, there's nothing against people who do that. Just for me personally.
- [96:32]
C
Is it because it's kind of the same type of surgery over and over and over again?
- [96:36]
B
Yeah, exactly. And some people love that, Right? Perfect your craft. You know exactly what's going to happen. That's great. Why I loved general surgery and acute care trauma surgery is because it's different not only every day, but even within your day. So all in one day, I can do. Remove a thyroid tumor, remove a breast mass, potentially cancer, depending on what it is, can take out a gallbladder. You know, I could do a colon resection, take out an appendix, remove a tumor on your leg or amputate it, whatever.
- [97:07]
A
Gunshot wounds.
- [97:08]
B
Gunshot wounds you've dealt with. Absolutely. Yeah.
- [97:11]
A
Especially when you marry Baltimore, bro.
- [97:14]
B
Baltimore?
- [97:14]
C
What are you talking about?
- [97:16]
A
It was so stressful knowing that your little sister is, like, working out of those just Ghetto hospitals. Like not the hospitals ghetto, but the hospital's in the ghetto.
- [97:25]
B
Oh, absolutely.
- [97:26]
A
And like she's carrying, you know, has her concealed carry because of just the threat of where she parks and going to the hospital and getting out. I'm just. Good lord, man.
- [97:38]
B
Yeah, yeah. So that's what really drew me to general surgery is the variety. I really enjoyed that.
- [97:44]
A
So you're going through. So you obviously matched very well, like you said.
- [97:49]
B
Yeah, I was really, really blessed where I matched. I interviewed at a wide variety of places, from large university systems to community. And Anne Arundel is a nice hybrid where it's technically a community hospital, but also it's integrated with university and it's a large hub in Maryland that is the highest volume of acute care and emergency surgery in the state of Maryland. And the residency is a very intimate one where you have a lot of one on one time with your attendings, which is unique. Whereas larger universities, you're very detached from your teachers. And so I wanted that relationship. I wanted to be able to graduate in five years and be a qualified general surgeon and not be forced to do another subspecialty which people get hooked into for general surgery. It's already five years of surgical training, very intense, 80 hours a week, every week, sometimes more. And at the end of that, you should be able to operate independently. But a lot of people end up subspecializing and doing another year in minimally invasive or robotics, or another year, you know, maybe in breast, or another year in thyroids or another year in this or that or, you know, and some you need to say for pediatrics, surgical oncology, things like that, absolutely necessary. But to be a good general surgeon, you shouldn't have to do a fellowship. And so I really felt like I was going to get that at Anne Arundel, and I did. And then within that, we did do our specialty, pediatrics, neonatal burn and transplant at Johns Hopkins and then our. All of our trauma surgery at shock Trauma in Baltimore.
- [99:30]
C
What's. What's a neonatal like?
- [99:33]
B
Well, at when I. It's, you know, tiny babies.
- [99:36]
C
Yeah. I mean, not necessarily from like the, the practical side of it, but like as a mom.
- [99:42]
B
Yeah.
- [99:43]
C
Just as a parent in general.
- [99:44]
B
Right.
- [99:44]
C
But like, certainly like as a mom. What's the, what's the, the, the, I guess, process for detachment when you're going into dealing with a neonatal case.
- [99:55]
B
Well, even, even one step deeper in the onion layer. I was pregnant when I did my pediatric surgery.
- [100:02]
C
Yeah.
- [100:03]
B
Rotation.
- [100:04]
A
And so she got married, is also pregnant, goes through all this while doing 80 hours a week of training.
- [100:12]
B
And so when I was doing my peds, I was, like, six, seven months pregnant. I was pretty prego.
- [100:19]
C
Yeah. So that not only makes things difficult on the physical aspect of it, but also on the emotional aspect and all of the biological things that are happening.
- [100:31]
B
Exactly. And honestly, I actually felt guilty. A lot of times. I feel bad that I would go into a NICU room and looking at the mothers was heartbreaking because they know and I know that the baby inside of me was bigger than the baby that I was about to operate on, which is crazy.
- [100:53]
C
Yeah.
- [100:54]
A
Holy.
- [100:56]
C
So, you know, I mean, we spent months in a NICU unit and seeing some of those. The baby that got brought in the last two days that Levi was in the NICU unit was one and a half pounds. He was born at 24 weeks.
- [101:10]
B
Yeah.
- [101:11]
C
Like, he. He would fit in the palm of your hand. There was more weight in the wires and the IVs that they had in him than the. Than the baby itself. And that's, like, not an exaggeration at all. That was just the reality of what those parents were going through.
- [101:25]
B
Yep. So I would do bowel resections, remove intestines from babies that were smaller than the baby I was growing. And, you know, in order to do the anastomosis or the connection of the intestines, the suture you're using. And everything is so small that we would wear our loops, which are like glasses with magnifying glasses on the ends that we use for vascular surgery and endocrine surgery, to see the tiny veins and nerves, but just to see the suture and get a better view on the intestines. And I would have to operate sideways.
- [101:59]
C
Yeah.
- [101:59]
B
Because my belly was too big. Oh, my goodness. Sure.
- [102:02]
A
That was great for just the human body.
- [102:05]
B
Yeah.
- [102:05]
A
It was for hours doing that.
- [102:06]
B
Yeah. It was rough, actually. I fell down a lot because I would get so hypotensive. I had to wear, like, the tightest compression stockings and drink so much salt during the day to try to keep my blood pressure up. It was rough, but it was okay, you know, made it through.
- [102:25]
A
But was it.
- [102:26]
C
Was that emotionally difficult for you to do?
- [102:29]
B
Sometimes, yeah. But I really just had to work through, you know, the detachment process. And, you know, I think I've talked to JP about it before. It's not something you learn overnight. It really was a skill that I had to build and become more mindful of from medical school through residency, you know, to recognize the fact that this is a very traumatic situation for this person and for their family, and it's heartbreaking. And, you know, there's times where it's just hard to not be in the moment emotionally for maybe this teenager who just got shot or this baby who might die from this, you know, intestinal necrosis or something like that, but that I had to give myself that moment, but very quickly put myself back into the moment of being the surgeon and be present and objective because they don't deserve, you know, me to be emotional at the time. And there's a very fine balance of. You have to show emotion and show that you care because you're a human being and they're a human being. You can't be a robot, and you need to have good bedside manner and relate to. To the patients and the parents and whoever it might be on a human level. And that's one thing I always strive to do, is to talk to my patients like they're humans. Right. But to also detach myself as the surgeon that I have a job to do. And this needs to be objective. Otherwise you're going to get kind of a subpar person performing, and that's not fair to you and to the next patient. And so if this patient dies, I have to give myself the moment to accept it and give the next patient 100% of me, because it's not their fault that my last patient died.
- [104:25]
C
That's got to be an impossible balance to try to find out some days. Right. Especially with the. As a general surgeon, with the number and type of different cases that you see day in and day out. And like, we were talking about the community that you were serving at that time in particular, and still, like, now you're. You're working with the armed forces and you're going to see a lot of just tough things. Right. Is finding out how to be what you need to be in order to do your job without pulling yourself away from being compassionate about, you know, those. The fact that you're. You're dealing with. With real people.
- [105:04]
B
Yeah. And there's definitely been moments where I had to put myself into the office to give myself a minute. I've pulled myself into a stairwell or a bathroom when I felt the tears coming and then had to get myself out of it and go back in the game. Or you just hold it in until you're driving home and you're in the shower. You know, it comes out eventually.
- [105:28]
A
Yeah. And so have you found that over the years of just being exposed to just very traumatic things, have you found that the sooner you deal with it, address it, process it, the better.
- [105:42]
B
Absolutely.
- [105:42]
A
Because if you just try to hold on to it, like you said, eventually it will come out. It doesn't matter who you are or how much of a badass you think you are. Like, trauma is traumatized.
- [105:54]
C
Yeah.
- [105:54]
A
And whether it's for, as a surgeon, police officer, firefighter, combat, just things that some people are exposed to growing up, you know, like social worker. Social. Yeah.
- [106:08]
C
With all this. Yeah, dude.
- [106:10]
A
I mean, or even like what kids deal with, like from abusive parents or aunts and uncles or just, you know, being molested or raped or all these, like, you, you cannot just hold on to things. So what has been some of the things that you've found that would help you dealing with that process? And you know, obviously having a supportive husband has definitely been like something that helps you out. But you know, what. What is something that you have done or you've learned or taught yourself to do to be able to like, process trauma.
- [106:46]
B
Yeah. I think, you know, one thing is prayer is very important and I think is a very underrated activity, you know, and some people maybe say, I don't know how to pray. If you know how to talk, you know how to pray. It's not that complicated, you know, and just talking, whether it's to God or to somebody, and those are two different things of doing it in the moment and then processing it later. So in the moment, I literally have a conversation in my head of, you know, assessing like, wow, this 19 year old is somebody's son, brother, right, whatever. And he just got shot up 18 times and this is a disaster to. Okay, leave it alone. And literally your mind just has to shift and you have to stay calm because you cannot have your emotions and your frontal cortex, your amygdala and your frontal cortex can't operate at the same time. So you have to shut one off and you're in control of that.
- [107:50]
A
So are you saying that from a. Hey, this is a biological, scientific thing. They cannot both be operating. That's why detachment is so important.
- [107:57]
B
Correct.
- [107:58]
A
Okay.
- [107:58]
B
Yes. So if you find yourself and the emotions are flooding, you have to. Basically mindfulness goes into the detachment. If you're not mindful of how your own body reacts to triggers, you won't be able to tell yourself to detach because you're. It's going to be too late. And then boom, you're in that emotional cycle and it's hard to pull yourself out of it. But just practicing mindfulness sounds cheesy and very granola yoga, but it's really important and it's helpful.
- [108:31]
A
Pretty sure it's a biblical.
- [108:33]
C
Yeah, Self awareness, whatever you want to call it. Yeah, it's the same kind of thing.
- [108:37]
B
Absolutely. And so it sounds funny, but, I mean, I don't know, I just kind of talk myself through it on a regular basis. And you just have to tell yourself you're going to focus, you know, keep yourself in it. Like every surgery you do three times, every procedure you do three times. Well, that sounds silly, right? But before you go into it, you know what you're doing, and you might not have a lot of time to prepare. Maybe it's a trauma, but while you're scrubbing in, in your mind, you're not talking, you're not texting, or at least for me. Right. But I'm scrubbing, I'm thinking about what am I going to do, what am I going to see when I get in there? What's my plan A, B and C. Right.
- [109:14]
A
So visual preparation. Correct. Allows you to go in there in a logical state of mind.
- [109:20]
B
Yeah. And I already have plan A, B and C before I cut. And then when I cut and I see what I see. Right. You deal with it as it comes. And you prioritize and you execute. Right. It's the same thing in a trauma laparotomy. Somebody gets shot, stabbed a few times, wrapped around a telephone pole. They're bleeding internally. You have an inkling of what's going on, but you don't know exactly know what's going on until you get in there. And so you have to detach from the emotions of all. The alarms are going off. The nurses are asking you a million questions. Anesthesia wants to do something. The scrub tech wants to do something. They're counting instruments in the background. Somebody's mopping in the bathroom. Something's happening over there. People are trying to get blood and, oh, we don't have this medicine. And maybe the patient's screaming because they're not intubated yet. All these things are happening. But you have to focus on your job of what's going to happen next. And if you're not thinking, how am I going to fix this? You know, the person's gonna come crashing down. And so you have to go in there with the mindset of. With an objective plan, regardless of what's presented at you. So you have to know, all right, this is what's gonna kill the patient first. And then I'm gonna prioritize that. And I'm not gonna get sidetracked with all these other Little things, Right? And so in surgery, that might be little vessels that are oozing, or this organ doesn't look right. And it sounds funny, but I just put a sponge on it, push it out of the way. I can't let that distract me from what's going to kill them, because that oozing vessel over there is not going to kill. It's annoying. It's a little annoying because it won't stop bleeding. But I'm just going to not look at it. I'm just going to shove something on it and not look at it for a little while, because that's not what's killing them. You know, it's going to be something in their retroperitoneum. It's going to be their vena cava, their aorta, their liver. You know, something like that's going to be going, going on. Their intestines might have holes. Vessels need to be clamped. And so you just really have to focus on prioritizing what you're doing in that. And then slowly, then you do your four quadrants, and you kind of take your time systematically. And so even in the chaos, you have to be objective and calm to prioritize the patient and all of that. Yes. You need to be oriented to what's going around. And you can't ignore everything. Right. If anesthesia is struggling, you have to be aware of that. If the nurses are struggling, you have to be aware of that and kind of be a team player. But you just can't let yourself get distracted. And so that takes time. You know, it doesn't happen right away. It happens from observing, from being patient, learning from your mentors. And it just takes time, patience.
- [111:59]
A
That's awesome. You know, we were talking about this the other night in the kitchen with you, Sarah, Brian and I. What's it, Sarah, you, Sarah, Brian, Amanda and I were talking about this, and it was cool. Like, Brian brought up. He made the comment about understanding the perspective of, like, the bad day that you had.
- [112:18]
B
Oh, yeah, that's true. Yeah. And it's not fair to your spouse, right, if you just say, oh, it was okay, or, oh, it was a bad day. Right.
- [112:25]
A
Yeah. Because Brian's like, well, I don't. I don't know what a bad day means to her, you know, and, you know, and it was, you know, the example of, like, oh, yeah, like, I dealt with a kid who was shot up and he died while I was working on him, and he had to go deliver the news to a parent, you know, all these things. And it's just like, oh, yeah, your. Your bad day is a really bad day.
- [112:47]
B
Yeah, the. It wasn't. The Excel spreadsheet didn't save. I mean, that could be frustrating.
- [112:53]
A
Yeah.
- [112:53]
B
But it's a different level, right?
- [112:54]
A
Yeah.
- [112:55]
B
It doesn't mean that that's less stressful.
- [112:58]
A
Because stress is stress to each individual. Like, trauma is trauma, but just being able to communicate with your spouse or your family members of, you know, just the things that you're dealing with and processing and maybe not obviously giving them all the details, depending on who you're married to and. Or like the level, I guess, of maturity of your children. But, you know, you being able to have these conversations with Brian is. Has been helpful.
- [113:23]
B
Yeah.
- [113:24]
C
You know, one of the things you mentioned earlier about, you know, talking about it quickly and then also that, like, everything's gonna come out at some point, everything that you're holding on to is gonna come out. It's in some way, shape, form or fashion. The faster you deal with it, the more control you have on how it comes out. That, you know, if you allow all of those things to fester and you just hang on to him and hang on to him and hang on to him, the less control you're going to have on how that is expressed, whether it's through anger and frustration, whether it's through like a mental breakdown or an emotional breakdown or what that looks like. But the quicker you handle it, the, you know, the more control you have over how you get to do that. And so, you know, you're talking about tools like, obviously praying, talking to your spouse about these kinds of things. There is also that line of, you know, where, where does. Not just confidentiality, right. Because you get HIPAA laws and all those things you have to observe as a surgeon. But the, the details of, like, how much do. Do you share, right? Like, where do you get to the point where, like, okay, I've. I've communicated enough because I think in the. So in my line of work as a pastor, there, there's confidentiality that's involved, but it's also, there are intimate details that people share with me. Hey, you know what? We're struggling in our marriage. I might get the entire download of what's going on, where those struggles are, what the conversations and things have looked like. Those aren't things that I always communicate to Kirsten. Right. If I say, hey, I've had a rough day, or, man, today's been emotionally taxing. Talk to somebody that's, you know, they're. They're struggling in Their marriage. And I'm. I'm trying to help them work through those problems. And it was just tough because that conversation. There are times depending on, you know, what's going on, do we know the couple? Are we working? You know, am I talking with the husband, she talking with the wife, those kinds of things where we might delineate more of that stuff when it comes to you talking about it. And, and this is sort of in the case of, like, I want to know you personally. But also, as we've got people who are listening that are serving in the military, that are first responders, this is a question that a lot of them come up to me, whether they ask about is how do you determine what details to give and what details to keep to yourself?
- [115:49]
B
That's a really good question. I think that's probably going to vary on the individual of what they need to. Right. I guess I've always been more of an internal processor, so I've actually, I'm a pretty bad, you know, person about telling stories. I will leave out a lot of details and then I'll think about it later and like, oh, I should have mentioned this. But also, I guess, you know, I usually will just give enough detail to get the point across of, oh, it was a really rough day because three patients died. And, you know, I had 40 patients on my caseload, like, whatever. Just like kind of almost. I keep it vague, I guess. Long story short, every once in a while I'll go into some details, but it is hard talking to someone, you know, not in the medical field to express how difficult something might be if they haven't really experienced it. So a lot of times we'll talk to maybe other co workers or another surgeon who's there, and it's easier to say, oh, I was doing this, you know, cholecystectomy, and the bile duct was this, and I had an aberrant SMA and this and that, and they'll know exactly what I'm saying. Whereas if I say that, you know, to a spouse or somebody like that, they're gonna be like, what? And then you spend more time explaining the details. That takes. Distracts from the point of. It was a hard case.
- [117:10]
C
And then it becomes frustrating to talk about it.
- [117:12]
B
Yeah, yeah. So now, granted, my husband's very patient and he does a good job of listening and asking, but I guess because of that, I do. I just kind of keep it vague. Right. Because it's hard to express why it was stressful to me versus, yeah, Brian.
- [117:28]
A
Brian's very Good at listening.
- [117:30]
B
Yeah.
- [117:31]
A
With, like, really good intentions and also asking good questions to, like, understand something. He's very intelligent, like Sarah. So, like, his ability to listen, ask questions, process is very impressive.
- [117:46]
B
Yeah.
- [117:46]
C
And I think, you know, for. For the people who are listening that, like, maybe you are the spouse of a first responder or somebody who is in. In a field where they're. Maybe they're a social worker, maybe they're a therapist or whatever, and they say that they've had a bad day. Like, one of the things that you have to learn how to do. We talk about this a lot when you're talking about building relationships, is that they're based off of trust, respect, listen. Right. Is. Is learning how to just be quiet. I'm terrible at it. Right. I think any. And JP's laughing because he knows, like, if there's more than, like, two seconds of silence, I'm like, somebody better talk. Like, I need to tell a story. Right. It's just the extrovert in me that's. That's there. But the, the truth is, is when. When we are being a good friend and we're taking care of the people that are around us, one of the things we have to do is, is to learn to listen. And there's some of those details we may want the answer to. Right. Like, I don't know what a whip stitch is, but I've heard a few people talk about it. Right. I saw it on an episode of Grey's Anatomy, so I know it exists, but it. It doesn't matter whether or not I know what that detail is as much as it does that I'm being present with that person as they're talking about that. That thing.
- [119:05]
A
Yeah.
- [119:06]
C
And that's a really important piece of it, is that, you know, there. There are times where it's appropriate to ask a question out of curiosity and other times where you, as you build a relationship with somebody, you know, you learn, hey, you know what? They just. The last five minutes, I didn't keep up with anything that they said, but it's obvious they. They got more talking to do.
- [119:23]
A
So, yeah, I'm here.
- [119:25]
C
Yeah, absolutely.
- [119:26]
B
Exactly. And that's. That's very helpful when people can do that. And one thing that I've started doing now that I'm in the attending role, in the supervisor role, is debriefing in the moment and trying to be more cognizant and recognizing when it might be a difficult situation for somebody else, because maybe I have a medical student and this is the first time They've seen a traumatic situation and hey, do you want to talk about it? How did this situation make you feel? And kind of go from there.
- [119:54]
A
That's good to have that awareness shifting focus real quick. So definitely want to just. I think it's always cool to like, share this when people are married. Like, how did you and Brian like, meet? And like, like, what was that situation? And then do you have like a fun memory or story from like when you were dating that you're like, oh, this is. This might be more than just me dating somebody.
- [120:18]
B
Yeah. Yeah. So we met at a gym.
- [120:22]
A
Nice.
- [120:22]
B
Yeah. Yep. So 24 Hour Fitness. It's no longer there. Womp, womp. I know, right? But yeah, he was just one of the normal guys who was willing to just like say, hey and how you doing? And have a conversation and wasn't trying to be annoying and cut in and, you know, that's cool. Gave me his number and we ended up texting for a while. And then I was very forward with him on my time restraints and was kind of like, hey, you know, I have. Yeah, if you want to hang out, I have like Monday night from like 7 to 9. Let me know.
- [121:00]
A
Feel free.
- [121:01]
B
That's what I got. Take it or leave it.
- [121:04]
A
That's awesome.
- [121:05]
B
Yeah. And prior to that I had, you know, I was single for like a year and I was just getting back into the dating game and I had gone on a few terrible first dates. Terrible first, like just. There's some weird people out there, guys, stay sharp. Just keep, keep on your toes. There's some weirdos. And. And so in our, like, texting and getting to know him, I kind of brought up some things that other guys said that bother them. Like, one guy said it bothered him that I rode motorcycles or that I had tattoos or that I was in the military. I'm like, does any of this stuff bother you? And he's like, no, I prefer it. Like, why would that bother me?
- [121:50]
A
Yeah, you know, he's like, I'm not insecure. I was a Marine, also in law enforcement and doing this currently, so.
- [121:57]
B
Exactly. So we just meshed right away. It was great. Went on a few dates and we just. It was just easy to talk to. Really got along well. He was always, you know, very mindful of my time and, you know, me wanting to very slowly introduce him to my daughter and things like that. He was very respectful of that, which is great. And so I knew that he was going to be a good guy and we just got along very well.
- [122:25]
A
And him and Aaron.
- [122:26]
B
Him and Aaron. Great. Yep, yep. Got down, started playing with her, riding bikes, things like that. Right away, brought over his dogs to meet my dog and things like that. So that was fun. And we were hanging out with my neighbor at the time, and she had a few kids and then her friend, brother, and there was just like, kids everywhere, Right. It was chaos. And I remember he was just sitting there, you know, sipping on a drink, totally chill. And I was like, sorry if this is, like, chaos for you. He's like, it doesn't bother me. I come from a family of 11, bruv. 11. He's one of nine children.
- [123:03]
C
Wow.
- [123:03]
B
And so he.
- [123:04]
C
Where does he fall in the lineup?
- [123:06]
B
He's the oldest boy. Second, so second oldest, but the first boy.
- [123:11]
C
So he, like, helped raise kids.
- [123:12]
B
Exactly. Yeah.
- [123:13]
C
Yeah, for sure.
- [123:14]
B
Exactly. So he was so not bothered by the chaos of all the kids. He's like, I thrive in chaos. So that was good. And, yeah, just a really good, genuine guy. He was a Marine and in law enforcement and very, very smart. And, yeah, did really well. And I tried to break up with him and he said, no, you don't know what you want, basically. And then when I was in medical school, yeah, I told him to not propose to me in the Caribbean in medical school. I said, don't do it. And he was basically like, you don't know what you want. And he proposed to me on the beach in the Caribbean.
- [123:58]
C
That's rad.
- [123:58]
B
And it was awesome. And he.
- [124:02]
C
You really gotta know the person if you're gonna tell them that they don't know what they want.
- [124:05]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he, like. He planned everything. Amazing. He was, like. Had, like a side, you know, text with my friends in medical school and set everything up. And it was so intricate that, like, I thought he was coming on a Saturday I had a test, or on a Friday night, I had a test and he was gonna come that night. And we're gonna spend the weekend hanging out before I started my next block of classes. Well, long story short, he ended up flying in a day early. I had no idea he was on the island. He was, like, texting me and he was already in the Caribbean. And I thought he was, like, still in Maryland and was like, oh, my phone's not working. Like, set up this whole thing for, like, a week leading up to it that his phone wasn't working very well so that he could, no, not respond to me and have the text not go through and stuff so I wouldn't be suspicious and set it up. So after Every big test, me and my group of friends would go down to the beach. It was horrible. I know. And this is a rough life. Yeah. You know, drink some coconuts and.
- [125:06]
A
Must be nice.
- [125:08]
C
There's no electricity at the beach.
- [125:10]
B
Yeah, exactly. Yep. Yep. And. And. But this particular. Normally it was. Every time it was straight after the test. Go straight to the beach. That's what we would do. But for some reason, this particular Friday test, I decided to go to brunch with a different group of friends. And then somebody there had a thing, and I took her to the doctor's office and then came back. And that group of friends that was waiting at the beach with Brian hiding in a bush with a ring for, like, three hours while I'm on the other side of the island having, like, brunch. And I have no idea he's there, and he's like, no, don't rush her. It'll sound suspicious. So I show up, not showered or anything. Just, like, in a bathing suit and shorts or something like that, or I don't even think I had shorts on. And I'm like, I'm ready. Let's go. And I literally. I grab two beers and run into the ocean.
- [126:02]
C
Fresh off brunch.
- [126:04]
B
Yeah. It's a true story. He's still hiding in a beach in a bush somewhere.
- [126:08]
C
Right.
- [126:09]
B
I grabbed two beers, run into the ocean, and my friends are like, oh, my gosh, Sarah, you're so embarrassing. Let's take a picture. We haven't had a group picture in, like, a semester. So they set it up so we have, like, a group picture. And I remember one of my friends at the time, she's like, oh, do you want to put your clothes back on first? I was like, nah. Why would I do that?
- [126:31]
A
I'm on the beach. Like, that's weird.
- [126:33]
B
Yeah. I still remember her. She's like, oh, what do you want? I was like, nah. Got two beers and a bikini. What else do I need?
- [126:42]
C
All of those essentials are ready.
- [126:44]
A
I mean.
- [126:45]
B
And we line up to take this big group photo, and one of my friends had his buddy, like, take professional photos of us. And then you see in the sequential photos of Brian running up behind us on the beach, like, running low, like, coming out of the bushes. Yeah. And I'm just standing there, like, cheese, like, being an idiot. And then I get a tap on my shoulder, and I think it's my buddy on the other side. I'm like, stop hitting my shoulder. And then all of a sudden, like, everybody disperses, and I still feel the Tap on my shoulder, and I turn around, and it's Brian on one knee in the sand, like, magical. And he's saying some probably very lovely things to me. And I'm like, what are you doing here? Totally ruined it.
- [127:38]
A
Pouring your beer on him.
- [127:40]
B
Yeah. I did not drop the beers. And I was like, is this a new shirt? He's like, I'm trying to say something here. Oh, yeah, it was awesome. So that was, like, epic that he just, like, put that all together and well done, Brian.
- [128:00]
A
Yeah.
- [128:00]
B
Yeah.
- [128:00]
A
All the other guys listening that are thinking about engage.
- [128:03]
C
Good luck.
- [128:04]
A
They're like, dang it.
- [128:06]
B
Yeah. Yep.
- [128:07]
A
Or they can be inspired and do something awesome like Brian did.
- [128:11]
C
I think that's the route they should go. Do something awesome.
- [128:13]
A
Do something awesome.
- [128:14]
C
Yeah.
- [128:14]
A
Like, Sarah has her whole life. All right, so that's an awesome story. Thank you. And so you guys get married while you're going through residency in medical school. No, I'm sorry. Yeah, that's right. You get married in medical school and then in residency you have Micah.
- [128:30]
B
Yep.
- [128:30]
A
Which is. He's awesome. He's two and he is full about just life and energy and he is so intelligent. And it's. No. Shocking. It's not shocking to me at all. Like, knowing Sarah and Brian and. And it's really cool how Aaron interacts with Micah. And she's such a good big sister.
- [128:50]
B
She's great.
- [128:51]
A
Just. Just so loving. That's awesome. Man.
- [128:54]
C
That toddler life is rough, though.
- [128:56]
B
Oh, man.
- [128:58]
C
Like, they're absolutely amazing.
- [129:00]
B
Yep.
- [129:00]
C
But there's nothing is safe.
- [129:03]
A
They're amazing little terrorists.
- [129:04]
C
They are.
- [129:05]
A
I mean, just straight up, like, full on.
- [129:08]
C
But then they'll kiss you. Yeah, exactly. Right. Like, yep. Scotty's been. He's had a little bit of a cold, and so he's, like, wanting to be really snuggly and then also wanting his space at the same time. So he'll, like, come right up to you and be like, hold me. Hold me. And then immediately scream afterwards, like, I need space. Like, okay, great. And then he'll come up and you're, like, trying to wipe his nose because it's just everything on that face is wet. And then, you know, give you a kiss, and you're like, that's disgusting. But it is so sweet. Yeah, yeah. Let me wipe your nose and then go shampoo my beard. All right.
- [129:48]
A
So talked about, Brian. I mean, this whole episode has been awesome.
- [129:53]
C
Yeah.
- [129:55]
A
So I was laughing. Yeah, yeah. So I was laughing when she was talking about rugby. Because I have a funny story. When I was in my first platoon. We're on the road, you know, single team, guy on the road. You're out, you know, having some drinks, the guys. And our thing on the road is, like, we wouldn't tell girls that we met, that we were seals. It. We would make up jobs, and it was usually like, we're a rodeo clown for a rodeo that's coming into town. Rugby team or skydive team. Right. And so those are, like, the three, like, stories or whatever. So I'm in a platoon, or we're on Beale street in Memphis, Tennessee, and, you know, like, we're talking to these group of girls and, like, oh, what do you do? We say, rugby team, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, you know. And then one of the girls was just like, oh, really? Like, what position do you play? Like, I. I play rugby. And I'm like, oh, shoot. And I was like, well, I'm gonna go get a drink. And I went to go get a drink, and I text Sarah and I told her what was going on. She goes, I'm not helping you. She's like, I'm not helping you.
- [131:02]
B
I should have told you to tell her you were the hooker.
- [131:05]
A
Yeah. She's just like, I'm not helping in this. I'm like, dang it. All right.
- [131:10]
C
That's the perfect sister response.
- [131:12]
A
Well, you know, it wasn't like you didn't have Google on your phone at the time, so it's not like I could look up stuff.
- [131:17]
C
I was like, on your. On your BlackBerry Pearl with the jog button or the jog.
- [131:21]
A
I had. I didn't even have that. I had the razor at the time, which I love that phone. So anyways, that's why I was laughing earlier when she was sharing rugby stories, but. All right, so current. So you graduate, you know, and now, you know, when was the transition? Like, hey, I want to become an officer in. Back in the Air Force.
- [131:42]
C
What I want to know. Yeah, how did you end up.
- [131:43]
A
So let's go from that transition to, like, current day. What?
- [131:46]
C
You're doing the room clean three times a week.
- [131:51]
B
Yeah. I haven't been punished enough. Let's go back into the military. So it was, you know, when I left the Air Force enlisted, it felt kind of like an incomplete way that I left, because it wasn't when I planned to leave again. Love, my daughter, Erin. Best thing that happened in my life. But that was kind of the transition out of the Air Force, and I still felt like I wanted to serve, but I, you know, like, I said before I went to medical school, I was even considering going back in as an intel officer just to use my degree. But fast forward in residency. So, you know, I was thinking of going back in pretty much right away when I secured my residency spot. But at the time, Brian and I were unsure if it would be a good commitment or not because it would be be five years in residency, so then a five year commitment afterwards. And at the time, they did not have any general surgery slots for the critical wartime ascension bonus. And so financially, it really would have taken a hit of what I could have earned in the civilian sector versus not, which is not the primary reason for doing it, obviously. But after you put yourself through 13 years of pain, you want to at least be able to pay off your school loans.
- [133:14]
A
It's a valid part of the calculus like that. That is a part of the calculus for sure. Especially when you're not single and you've got kids, married. These are things that you actually have to put in the calculus.
- [133:28]
B
Yeah. And there was kind of some uncertainty with Brian changing jobs at the time as well. And so I was like, you know, I've kind of been selfish and put my career first. I finally, I got what I wanted. I got my surgery residency. I got where I wanted. So I'm not going to be greedy, I guess, and try to keep going at the time. But then fast forward a couple of years and kind of things changed in terms of, like, he was more stable and secure, not that he was ever unstable, but where he wanted to be in his career, I guess, to where it would have been okay if we needed to move. If I went on active duty and there were general surgery slots available again. So there's only 78 general surgeons in the Air Force. And so you have to. They can't, you know, just take anyone. And so there's only a certain amount of slots. Some years there will be no slots available. Some years there will be a couple. I think the year that I applied there was like, I think he said like 15 people for two slots in the entire country. And so I didn't tell really anyone that I was applying to go back in because it wasn't just a guarantee. I had to go through a selection process for those. One of those two slots. And I had to be interviewed and everything. And then you have to get a, you know, congressional appointment to be an officer and stuff like that. And so it was a process to make sure I was approved first. And then once I finally was like, you're approved and you Went through the whole process. You know, obviously had to also go back through all of like the medical and dental vision, stuff like that. And once it got approved, then I signed the contract. I signed the contract at the end of my third year and that's when I was pregnant with Micah. So funny segue into that. I won't take too much time on it, but we wanted to get pregnant for about four years and it just wasn't God's timing. And we finally came to terms with that. We were gonna have Erin and she's a blessing and okay, that's, you know, we weren't gonna have another child. And in a one week time period when we finally were like, all right, you know, four years, it's good to go. We booked a all inclusive trip to Jamaica. It's like a couple's trip. And we both bought new cars on the same week. I traded in my car for a ridiculous lifted truck. Like a six inch lift and mud tires. And he traded in his SUV for like a super fast S8 that holds like two and a half people. I mean, it holds four people, but it's not.
- [136:13]
C
Yeah, it holds two people and their golf clubs. That's what it's meant for.
- [136:18]
B
Neither of these vehicle or family vehicles. Long story short. And then the next week, found out I was pregnant. Literally one week later, it's like, that's good. And I had already signed my contract for the Air Force when I thought I was going in. You know what I mean?
- [136:35]
A
Yeah.
- [136:35]
B
And so I was like, oh, cool. So now I'm. Yep. I'm going to go in and have a kid and I'm keeping my monster truck.
- [136:46]
C
As you should.
- [136:47]
B
Yeah. So that was funny. So, yeah. So I was pregnant with Micah when I swore in as an officer, actually, I just wore a poofy dress.
- [136:59]
C
Look at you go.
- [137:01]
A
Go girl.
- [137:02]
B
Yeah. But it was cool. One of my attending.
- [137:05]
A
So you're 37ish at this time? 38.
- [137:10]
B
I guess. Yeah. I was 37.
- [137:12]
A
Yeah. That's awesome. I just wanted to bring that up because a lot of people put age as a limitation for going and going, going and being able to go do something or serve in the military or something. It's like, actually, you can find a way.
- [137:24]
B
That's true.
- [137:25]
A
You can find a way.
- [137:26]
C
If you've just had a geriatric pregnancy, you can do that.
- [137:32]
A
She hadn't yet. She's in the process.
- [137:34]
B
That's true.
- [137:35]
C
Yeah. To any. What is it, 35 after 35.
- [137:38]
B
Yeah.
- [137:38]
C
I've told my wife all of her pregnancies have been a geriatric pregnancy for me, because I've been over 35. For you, for all of them. Not for her, because everybody's now like, oh, y' all are pregnant. We're pregnant. I guess the geriatric pregnancy.
- [137:49]
B
That's hilarious. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, I was. Yeah, I was. I turned 30 in medical school. Yeah, 37. And so I was like, yeah, let's do this. Brian agreed. He was, you know, we went through everything. I. Even when I was having my interviews and talking with the advisor for the general surgeons and going through the whole process of, okay, how does this work for matching up with, you know, a hospital and things like that? I had Brian, I had on speaker phone so Brian could like, understand the whole process. Right.
- [138:19]
A
Smart.
- [138:20]
B
Just want to make sure we're on the same page with everything. Full transparency, which is super important. Marriage.
- [138:24]
C
Yup.
- [138:25]
B
Especially during all these career changes and things, because it affects him just as much as me. And. And when they came out with a list of available duty stations, this was just another huge God thing. Blessing. There was not one in Baltimore on the list. The closest to where we live was Andrews Air Force Base, which is about a 45 minute drive doable otherwise. All of the other open duty assignments were across the country, some in other parts of the world. And so we went through every single duty station and went through. How would that affect my career? How would that affect his career? You know, going through all these logistics together. And then eventually we agreed on our rank list. And so we had to rank all of the available duty stations and submit that and then wait to hear back. And then there was a meeting with like an information session with the advisor for the general surgeons about a week before the kind of rank list was closing. And he gave more information on all the duty stations of, you know, hey, this is what you can expect at this mtf, which is a military training facility and things like that. This one's outpatient. Inpatient. Which ones have civilian partnerships and don't. And just how it'll affect you as a surgeon. Right. As well as your responsibilities as a Air Force officer. And he's like, you know, does anyone else have any other questions? And I kind of asked him. Had like a side combo with him and asked him, hey, like, I know that Walter Reed Bethesda wasn't on the list, but is there anything else in that area that might have an Air Force slot coming up that maybe wasn't on the list?
- [140:08]
A
And it's a good question to ask.
- [140:10]
B
Yeah, because I know that there were some Air Force surgeons in at Bethesda at least. And he said, well, right now there aren't any general surgery slots there, but there is a possibility if you get selected at Andrews, that you could do like, two days a week if you wanted to do, like, colorectal or breast clinic stuff up at Walter Reed Bethesda. I was like, okay, that could be a good compromise. He's like, but I don't know if you'd be interested or if you've heard of this C STARS program at Shock Trauma in Baltimore. I said, well, yes, I have. I did, like, total of six months between med school and residency at Shock Trauma in Baltimore. So I was very familiar. So their C STARS program is a civilian military partnership with the Air Force and Shock Trauma, which is like, one of the number one training trauma hospitals in the country. And it's the first military civilian partnership for over 20 years and the largest in the Air Force. Still running today. It's the center for Sustainment Trauma and Readiness. What that assignment is is a dual billet. And so you are a instructor with the School of Aerospace Medicine under the Air Force Research Laboratory Command and the Human Performance Wing, part of the research for the Air Force. And then you are also a surgeon or whatever. You're maybe anesthesiologist, respiratory therapist at the hospital. And so when I did my rotations there, I met with some of these, and I did vascular surgery there, trauma surgery there, and met with some of the Air Force docs. And they kind of talked to me a little bit. I didn't really know what their instructor job was. I just knew that they were there for the Air Force. So I didn't fully understand what that part of the job was yet. But I said, yes, I'm familiar. And he said, well, I don't know, there might be an opening coming up. There might be somebody retiring and you might be able to, like, take his slot. I was like, oh, he's retiring? Oh, yeah, Replacing a colonel. No pressure. So I wouldn't be taking over his role, like, as a colonel, obviously, but his role of a general surgeon, Geez.
- [142:24]
A
Could you explain just that difference between like, your current role in rank and what a general kind of background would be?
- [142:33]
B
And yeah, sure. So I'm a captain. I'm an 03, and then a full board colonel is an 06, which is the highest most physicians can get to and still work clinical. Above that is, you're becoming a general, which is more of just like Pentagon administrative role. And so he's a big wig guy. Great guy. And so I interviewed with. So it was a while. Long story short, it was many more months than anticipated to wait to find out that I got this billet because he wasn't sure if it was going to be open. He said, put it on your list if you'd be interested, and asked me if I would still if I would be interested in teaching and said, yes, I love teaching, and things like that, and that'll be great. Put it on there. Everyone else was finding out in, like, February, where they're getting assigned for their duty stations. Graduation is in June, and this involves, like, potentially moving across the country. We could have gone to Nebraska, literally, that was on the list. Florida, like, all these places. And we didn't find out for sure until May. This was, like, so stressful. And honestly, you know, Brian and I would potentially have, like, little arguments sometimes about it, to be honest with you, of, like, this is stressful. Like, this affects him and our family. And then one day we were walking and we just prayed about it, and we're like, we just need to be patient with each other, with God, and we will be where he wants us to be, and we will be at peace with it because we've both kind of given up our control of it. Right. We've both agreed upon this, prayed about it, and it's in God's hands. And stressing about it is not gonna fix the problem. And then once we both kind of agreed on that and had that conversation, within a few days, I got the email that I was going to Baltimore.
- [144:21]
A
That's so cool.
- [144:22]
B
Yeah. So you just have to be patient with God, you know?
- [144:24]
C
Or rather that you're not going to Baltimore because you guys kind of get to stay where you're at.
- [144:28]
B
Oh, well, exactly. Yeah. So it's like 30 minutes from where we currently live. And. Yeah. So graduated residency in June, July. I went to officer training in Alabama.
- [144:39]
A
What was that like as a. We'll just say experienced human.
- [144:44]
B
Yes. Now 39, not 40 yet.
- [144:49]
A
Yeah. Coming up.
- [144:50]
B
Yeah.
- [144:50]
C
Anyways, it's not as bad as they say.
- [144:53]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [144:54]
C
I'm like, six weeks into it.
- [144:57]
A
But you're 39. And what's about the average age of all these other individuals that you're going through?
- [145:03]
B
25. Yeah, 25. Most of them. Yeah. None of my roommates were in their 30s.
- [145:11]
C
My roommates.
- [145:12]
B
Yeah.
- [145:14]
A
How long was that training?
- [145:15]
B
Nine weeks.
- [145:16]
A
What was the worst part of it?
- [145:18]
B
Marching.
- [145:20]
A
Okay. What was the second worst part of it? I mean, you're in Alabama in the summer.
- [145:27]
B
Yeah, Alabama in the summer. It was hot the first week we got there. They're like, this is like record heat and humidity. Like, that's great. But you know what really helped me is Little Cattle company whipped beef tallow.
- [145:41]
C
That's what I'm talking about.
- [145:42]
B
After sun, I'd never peeled. Just saying. Don't want to steal your thunder later.
- [145:47]
A
Now we don't even have to talk about it.
- [145:49]
B
It was amazing.
- [145:50]
C
Take it off the list.
- [145:51]
A
Yeah, but go to Little Cattle co.
- [145:53]
B
Exactly. No, it was, you know, in the moment. It was just. It was fun. Frustrating being there. And it was really me just being in my own head of why am I here for nine weeks? This is ridiculous. I could be operating and instead I'm like, right flank hearts. This is ridiculous. Yeah, yeah.
- [146:11]
C
What plane are you going to do that on?
- [146:13]
A
Exactly.
- [146:13]
B
But there's a lot of really good lessons. And once you kind of got past the bs so to say that you have to do for military indoctrination, because not everyone there was prior service. Right. So of course they have to learn the military ways. There's some really good lessons on leadership, you know, taking ownership. All of that was integrated. We did some really cool field training exercises. We got to play around with little Airsoft M16s. It was super fun. Went out into the field and got to shoot people up. And I got to lead several of the of the missions. People started, like, requesting me to be on their team, which was fun. And yeah, we did some really cool leadership experiential things where you would have these kind of physical puzzles behind you that you couldn't look at. And then you would have your team and the buzzer would go off and you would have 15 minutes to execute. And then you would get handed a cue card of what the mission was. And then you would turn around and see the physical obstacle and have 15 minutes to execute. And as the. You would take turns kind of being the commander and being the followers. And then as the commander of, like, the mission, you would get graded on a lot of different things. You would get graded on your communication, on your delegation, right. On your resource management. Are you using all the supplies given to you? Are you using all of your people that are given to you? And knowing their skills and knowing your people and using those people appropriately for. For the mission, Things like that. And obviously execution.
- [147:47]
A
That's awesome. Do you like the combative side?
- [147:51]
B
Combatives was fun. Yeah. So we did jiu jitsu. Yeah, that was fun. Yep.
- [147:56]
A
But I always I loved getting those texts from you and the family group text got a little bit combatant training.
- [148:02]
B
Yeah.
- [148:03]
A
I now, I now, I now get why you like it.
- [148:05]
B
Yeah, yeah, it was fun. I can shrimp with the best of them.
- [148:08]
A
Yeah, get those hips off the ground.
- [148:10]
B
Yeah, yeah, that's cool. So that was fun. And then now I'm. Now I'm in Baltimore. And so my role is a dual, dual billet. So like when you, you know, not that you would, but like if you look on your kind of Air Force portal of your assignments and stuff. I've. My first assignment is instructor with the school of Aerospace Medicine. And then my second assignment is surgeon. And so I operate and I'm a surgeon at the Baltimore VA and then I teach at Shock Trauma C stars. It's a comprehensive medical readiness course for Air Force providers, med techs, respiratory therapists, paramedics, nurses, physicians, PAs. And it's a pre deployment mission readiness course that they go through to learn disaster kind of management, trauma management, things like that, battlefield medicine. It's a two week course course and they come through and it's fully immersive. And so when they come in, we divide them into teams. We have lectures on burn, kind of, you know, TBI management, damage control, resuscitation, things like that. And then we have cadaver lab going through physical procedures. That's one of the things I like to do, obviously, being on the surgical side. And then a really amazing sim lab that is very immersive. The cadavers can do, I'm sorry, the simulators can do everything you can think of from blink, dilate their pupils, cry, sweat. They have vessels everywhere that we can make bleed. They have pulses everywhere. Their lungs can operate independently if we want to give asynchronous respiratory situations. Heart, their bladder, they can do Foley catheters, they can do central lines, they can do lines on the arms, we can change around the limbs to put on amputations and things like that. It's very, very involved. And all of the machines are set up in a trauma bay. Very realistic. It's the exact same machines used in the trauma bay upstairs. You actually have to intubate them properly. You actually have to set them up to the machines properly or it won't work. And they'll get that feedback. And so they, they get kind of a progressive training without giving away too many details of starting kind of with a basic like one patient scenario to like a culminative event where they have a mass casualty.
- [150:43]
A
And I know you can't get into Too many of the details. But, um, you know, when we were talking, like, about it, is there anything that you can share from, like, just, like, what you do as an instructor to add stress and then like, to teach your. Your. Would you call them students? Yeah, yeah. Teach your students to detach and to prioritize and actually look around and be like, hey, you're worried about this, but that's actually not the problem.
- [151:10]
B
Yes.
- [151:10]
A
All the way from, like, the little things like you said, like power goes out, lights, you know, all this stuff. And, oh, hey, you're doing all this stuff, but you forgot to hook up the machine.
- [151:17]
B
Exactly. Yes. So, you know, attention to detail. Right. And so all the other instructors do a really good job of this, too. Obviously. I'm one of the newer instructors, so I'm learning from them. But what's great about going through five years of surgery training, you know, you're instructing other residents and students the whole time. So you have that. But, yeah, they go through and you give them a kind of briefing ahead of time and orient them with everything so they know, hey, if you. What you see is what you get, it's not due to the sim not working. If. If you're not getting the feedback, you think you need to check yourself and check your machine, because it will work if you do it properly. And it's amazing how many times we tell people that. And they still will assume something's not working because it's the simulator. And we're like, we told you very clearly, if the patient's heart rate is not coming up, it's not because the SIM's not working. It's because you gave them the wrong medicine or you didn't hook up something properly.
- [152:18]
A
And that just shows the natural tendencies of humans is not to take ownership.
- [152:22]
B
Yeah.
- [152:22]
A
Oh, couldn't be what I did. It clearly is the machine. No, actually, you didn't do the right thing.
- [152:29]
B
Correct. Yeah. We had a scenario where somebody hooked up the leads in the wrong position, and so we weren't giving them the vital signs, but because they didn't hook it up properly. And they went almost an entire iteration with just ignoring the fact that the patient did have vital signs because they assumed it was the machine. And we even would give them little hints like, check your patient, check your machine. And they didn't check that the leads were totally in the wrong position. And so they just entire time didn't get vital signs and blamed it on the machine. And so then we have debriefs about things like that. Like, no, you Guys need to take this serious seriously. Right. Like, and if you don't do it correctly here, you're. What makes you think you're all of a sudden going to do it correctly there. Right. You're going to fall back to your lowest level of training.
- [153:11]
A
Yeah. And, I mean, that's just also a testament to, like, stress. You know, when people get stressed out, if you're not, like you were saying earlier, all these things have been skill sets that you've had to develop. And so you're teaching people the skill set of detachment, of actually take a breath. Like, Lily, breathe. Look around, see what's going on.
- [153:29]
B
Yeah.
- [153:29]
A
You know, ignore the external noises 100%.
- [153:33]
B
And so what's great is after, while we're going through these scenarios, the instructors. We're in the room, but stepped back and observing what they're doing, and we're mic'd up, and we can tell the control room, hey, they did this correctly, or they hung this fluid or whatever, and then they can control the monitors and the cadaver. Not the cadavers. I keep saying cadavers. The simulators to respond appropriately.
- [153:57]
C
What type of security clearance do I need to come in and just create havoc on one of the simulators? To just be in that room with a headset on and be like, all right, watch out. This one's gonna squirt this. We're gonna squirt her.
- [154:09]
A
There's blood everywhere. Oh, my gosh, there's blood. Yeah, I already thought about that. I'm like, man, do you guys allow.
- [154:15]
C
That's all I wanted.
- [154:16]
A
Observation.
- [154:17]
C
All I want to do is to. To just work the buttons that create chaos.
- [154:20]
A
Oh, you want to be on that?
- [154:21]
C
Yeah, I just want to be on the simulator and be like, okay, which. Which lung needs to breathe faster than the other one? Just like. This isn't in the medical books. No, it isn't.
- [154:31]
B
The operators are very skilled, very smart.
- [154:34]
A
I couldn't imagine, like, training to be able to do that.
- [154:36]
B
Yeah. They take their jobs very seriously. And those mannequins are like their babies.
- [154:40]
C
Yeah. I would imagine they'd have to.
- [154:42]
B
Yeah, they take a very good job. They do, like, the moulage. They set up everything so realistic. They put them in clothes. Like, they have to. You have to go in and, like, cut off the clothes. So, like, they put different clothes on them, and we'll give different scenarios. Like, you know, these people got ejected from this. These people got blasted with this or whatever, and they'll get, like, a quick briefing, but we make it very realistic. There's a speaker in the background and it's blasting like you're in a combat zone. There's helicopters landing. And the helicopter gets louder and louder as the patients are coming in. And then all of a sudden they bust through the doors and we talk, pull down the sheets, and here's your patient. And we're like, who's taking report? You know, and go through it. And then after we finish, then we come out and then the helicopter kind of fades away. And then they're going through the scene and they have to call to the talk, they have to call to command to ask for things. If they don't ask properly, we don't give it to them. If they forget to ask for something, we don't. And sometimes we'll have role players come in, be like, oh, you asked for this. This person's coming in. But if you're not ready for them, they're going to leave again. You know, X ray, they have to ask for X rays, labs, things like that. And then we'll pop it up and we'll populate actual labs of what would happen if they didn't give the blood in time or what would happen if they forgot to give the calcium with the blood, things like that. And then next thing you know, we're getting attacked, right? And then power goes out, lights go off, bombs are going off, the sounds get louder.
- [156:02]
C
That's all super cool chaos. A volunteer is a role player.
- [156:05]
A
Yeah, I was.
- [156:07]
C
Yes.
- [156:07]
B
That's great. And then. And then we debrief. And that's the most important part. Right, the debrief. And we do a group debrief. And then we do a, like, separate afsc, like, job debrief. So I debrief with the physicians. Most of them, nine times out of ten, are not surgeons. And then, you know, nurses will debrief with nurses, text with techs, et cetera. Right. Which is good because there's some things as a group you can talk about. And that's like, how did this make you feel? What is your takeaway from this scenario? And that's what we're talking about as a group, correctly? Exactly. How's your team dynamic this time? Because we keep them in the same team from day one to day 12. And so they can build that. And we encourage them, go out to dinner. Here's a government van, Go to dinner. Get to know each other so you flow better, mesh together, you know, and then we have this separate, you know, one on one with the physician or a PA or an np. Exactly. And so that's been the good part of, from beginning to end, maybe having a more timid family medicine PA or family medicine doctor who's not comfortable with trauma and chaos. And we're throwing them in this scenario, and they're the oic, they're the officer in charge, and they have to step up, and that's something that makes them uncomfortable. Yes, you're a physician, but now you have to be an OIC in a trauma situation. That's very uncomfortable for somebody who's normally in an office. And letting them recognize that and talk through that and kind of giving them some feedback and seeing how they progress along the way is really, really cool.
- [157:39]
A
Now, I know, like, as we've talked over the years of you doing all this stuff, like the military in general does a good job teaching leadership, you know, and obviously you've had a lot of classes and courses and on the job training of, like, what good leadership looks like and what bad leadership looks like and how to address and move through it. But I also know you've been to the muster before.
- [158:00]
B
Yeah.
- [158:01]
A
And so how has some of the things that you, you know, learned and. Or were like, were reiterated to you from coming to the muster and reading, you know, extreme ownership and dichotomy, leadership and leadership strategy and tactics. Like, how have some of those things been beneficial to you and what have you taken from that to implement into, like, what you've done and what you're now currently doing?
- [158:25]
B
Also as an instructor, extremely helpful. So I think I've been to three or four musters, and I've read all the books, listened to JP Danell podcast, Jocko Podcast, started listening to Jocko podcast in medical school, and it's been extremely helpful. And some of the key takeaways that I've tried to implement, and it's been very helpful. And then now teaching to other people is several points, but, you know, detachment, of course, decentralized command is very helpful. And prioritize and execute is paramount, especially in surgery and in trauma. Oh, my gosh. And then, you know, the stop, look around, you know, make a call, things like that. Right. Super important. And just being mindful of that and kind of reiterating it, that it's. It's not easy, but it is simple, you know, and we talk about that a lot and making sure everyone's on the same. Same page. Right. Everyone knowing their why and. And having that kind of established in the beginning is important. And so I try to try to teach to whether it's a new surgeon, a new doctor or someone who's been a doctor for 10 years. But now they're coming to this new trauma training, right? And mass casualty training. And. And they're scared. And their way of wanting to do a good job is they want to be in it. And that's like the first instinct of one of a lot of them is they want to be in it doing the work and doing the CPR and doing the things. But, like, you can't always do that, especially when you're in a mass casualty situation. You can't be the one pounding on the chest when there's five other guys over there that need help. And so you have to detach. You have to take a step back. You have to look around and make a call because everyone needs you when you're the officer in charge. And you can't let yourself get immersed in this one thing and get so focused that you just get tunnel vision. And so you have to take a step back so you don't get tunnel vision and being able to do that and you're aware of everything, but you're also just a little bit detached from it, so you can see the big picture is super, super important.
- [160:32]
A
That's awesome. You know, you. You share with me the other day when we were talking and it was such a cool thing, I was like, man, I really want us to talk about this on the podcast. Is you just understanding how your role has shifted and you're not an E5 in the military anymore and she's now an O3 and she has to be careful about the things that she says. Not like in a negative way, but just. So share the story of, like, you. You made a. Just a casual comment. And this is a really cool thing about just understanding the power of being in a leadership position with a legitimate rank, like a legitimate rank in there. In the military.
- [161:10]
C
There's no O3 mafia. So what you're trying to say.
- [161:14]
B
You'Re.
- [161:14]
A
Going to love this story.
- [161:15]
B
Well, yeah, I guess both of them were kind of part of the E4E5 mafia, right? One was, I was brand new in the unit and I had asked a tech sergeant for help with something and just kind of like casually, because the civilian person who was helping me had gone home or whatever and asked her and she had already left. And I didn't like, think anything of it. And then she like text me back at 7 o' clock at night or something like that and was like, I'm so sorry, Captain Parmeter. I just. I can get. Let me get on my Computer right now. I just got around to this, and I had already figured out whatever it was. And I was like, oh, no, it's fine. Like, it's not a big deal. And she's like, oh, I had to feed my daughter dinner. I was like, it's okay. I was like, I am so sorry to bother you. And it wasn't until, like, a few weeks later, I thought about that situation again, and I was like, I have to be really careful about what I ask and from who. Because that actually wasn't just me being like, hey, when you have a second, can you help me? That was an officer asking an enlisted to do something, and that's how she took it. And that's a big responsibility that I have to be careful about who I ask for help. And instead, I need to stay also, like, within and up my chain of command. You know, I need to ask my partner, who's also a captain or a major, right? Like, I need to talk to those people about things. Not the staff and tech sergeant who's going to be like, oh, this officer's asking me to do something.
- [162:39]
C
Yeah, yeah. I was just given a command.
- [162:41]
B
Yeah.
- [162:42]
C
Literally not a request.
- [162:43]
B
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So I was like, oof, that's very different, you know, and you kind of have some of that as transitioning into being the surgeon of, like, oh, if I ask for somebody for, like, an instrument that I like to use in my surgeries. I met the new charge nurse. She was like, oh, make me a list and I'll order it. What for?
- [163:08]
C
Dang, it's bizarre.
- [163:09]
A
That's crazy.
- [163:10]
B
Yeah. And then another was, we're getting ready to have a meeting. But before, before, like, the group meeting, which there's only 32 of us in my unit, it's small. There's like 10 officers.
- [163:21]
A
The.
- [163:21]
B
I was sitting in the room and that we were gonna meet in, and the enlisted were about to have a, like, their enlisted meeting to talk about their side jobs. And I was like, oh, sorry, do you want me to, like, get up and go out while you guys have this? And the enlisted leader, Master sergeant, he was like, I am not going to ask an officer to leave the room. And I was like, I, like, looked around and I looked down.
- [163:46]
A
I was like, oh, he's talking to me.
- [163:51]
B
I was like, my bad. I was like, hey, man. I was like, it's cool. I'm still a senior airman at heart. You can tell me what. He's like, no, Captain of Parmater. You sit right there. I was like, oh, Dang, that moment.
- [164:03]
C
She'S like, enjoy the show and give us whatever feedback.
- [164:05]
A
Actually, on second thought, I'm going to go. You guys need anything? I'm going to go grab you guys some coffee.
- [164:09]
B
Exactly. Yes.
- [164:11]
A
Shifting that role of, like. Oh, I don't want to be perceived, like, in the wrong way because, I mean, there's that.
- [164:17]
B
That's just different.
- [164:18]
A
Yeah. That's awesome.
- [164:19]
B
Yeah.
- [164:19]
C
Yeah. It's going to be a tough juxtaposition.
- [164:23]
B
Yeah. So it's been a. Interesting transition, but I'm really blessed to be where I am now, and it's. I have no idea what I'm doing, though. It's a wild ride.
- [164:33]
C
Yeah.
- [164:33]
A
It's called life. That's awesome. Well, this has been an incredible episode. Thank you, Sarah, for making this a priority. Lucas, what other things you want to.
- [164:45]
C
So I've asked most of my questions, but I've got. I've got one that I know is. It's certainly one that I think a lot of other people are asking, and that is, what medical show is actually the most like working in a hospital. Right. I feel like I have to ask this question to everybody. So I've got five here. I love that.
- [165:03]
B
That's a good question.
- [165:03]
C
Which are the ones that I. That I like to go through? Er, Grey's Anatomy, House scrubs, or mash. Which one of those is the most, like, actually working in?
- [165:16]
B
Yeah, those are all excellent. I would say. Scrubs.
- [165:21]
C
That's. This is the answer that I've heard most often is that Scrubs is more like the legit. What it seems. What it actually is like to work in hospital. And most people don't think that because it's like a goofy.
- [165:31]
B
Yeah.
- [165:32]
C
Comedy show, but they're.
- [165:33]
B
We're all just trying to figure it out, you know?
- [165:35]
C
Yeah.
- [165:35]
B
It's not as serious as it sounds.
- [165:37]
C
Yep, that's him. Extemie and McDreamy aren't always in there trying to make decisions and eyes at the. At the residents.
- [165:44]
B
No.
- [165:44]
C
Yeah.
- [165:45]
B
Grey's Anatomy is ridiculous. Never once have I been in a trauma bay where, like, the chief of dermatology is in the trauma bay or, like, what is happening in the show? Where are these people?
- [165:56]
A
Like, what's your view on House?
- [165:59]
B
House is funny.
- [166:01]
A
Okay. So you look at it as, like, this is just pure, like, entertainment for me.
- [166:05]
B
Yeah. But what's interesting is actually, like, I had a friend in medical schools from China. She watched House to learn English medical terminology. And it was very helpful because actually, they go through some amazing differentials and, like, These bizarre cases that actually are real.
- [166:27]
A
Yeah.
- [166:27]
B
And like, the way that they go through the differentials and the symptoms and the labs and everything and, you know, it's always, like, presented in a very quirky way. But. Yeah. I mean, we have table rounds and we write on the whiteboard and try to figure things out and we go through that. But it's. I mean, I've never been in a place where there's like five people dedicated to one patient trying to figure and go to their house and, like, look in their medicine cabinets. That's not going to happen.
- [166:52]
C
You don't have a mildly crippled British man using an American accent breaking into people's homes.
- [166:58]
B
Yeah, not that I'm aware of. It's definitely possible.
- [167:01]
A
I mean, nothing's off the table.
- [167:02]
B
Nothing off the table.
- [167:04]
C
I think. I think a lot of that is off the table. I think they've explored that. It is illegal to do a lot of those things.
- [167:09]
A
That. Yeah, but he didn't care.
- [167:11]
B
He did not care. Yeah. I have heard the new show, the Pit is very realistic, but I have not watched it.
- [167:16]
C
I've never even heard of it.
- [167:18]
B
I haven't watched it. It's actually the guy from er.
- [167:22]
C
George Clooney.
- [167:22]
B
No, not him. Noah something.
- [167:24]
C
Okay.
- [167:25]
B
He's in the pit.
- [167:27]
C
Cool.
- [167:27]
A
All right, we'll have to check it out.
- [167:28]
B
So I haven't watched it, but I've heard it's realistic.
- [167:31]
C
Okay. Scrubs is what I was hoping the answer would be.
- [167:33]
B
Yeah. Scrubs, the attendings roast you on rounds and it's just. Yeah. The surgeons are the jocks and the medicine and the nurses and it's all very similar. You don't mess with the nurses or they will make your life miserable.
- [167:49]
A
It's a valid statement.
- [167:50]
B
Or they will help you and be your savior.
- [167:52]
A
Yeah.
- [167:53]
B
Depending on your day. Yeah.
- [167:55]
A
And that's just such a good testament, like, from. That is just how you treat people. 100% how you treat people, how you talk to them. Like, just showing people respect for what they do. I have gotten more favors, I guess you can call them while traveling from gate agents and rental car individuals and hotel staff by just being polite because they're dealing with a holes all day long. And then I come up to him, I'm like, hey, I'm sorry for everything you're dealing with.
- [168:27]
B
Yeah.
- [168:28]
A
I always make a joke, like, I think it's amazing that you can control the weather.
- [168:31]
B
Yeah.
- [168:31]
A
And they crack a smile. I said, hey, I know you're dealing with a lot of a holes. I just have A question. I don't know if you can help me or not. Here's my situation. What do you think I should do? And by me showing them respect for me, asking their opinion, it's crazy.
- [168:46]
B
It is crazy.
- [168:47]
A
The amount of just loops that they'll go or jump through to like, try to help me or get me in there. Hey, you know what? Actually, this flight is about to be canceled. I'm gonna put you on this next one. Can you make it down to the gate? And I'm like, yep, boom. And I'm running to the gate and everyone else is like sitting around going, oh. And then I get on that flight and I get home.
- [169:05]
B
Absolutely. Relationships are paramount. And in the hospital, that is everything. If you don't have good relationships with your nurses, techs, scrub techs, anesthesiologists, and everyone you work with, it's a whole team. It's not going to work. And, you know, I've had some, some comments from my, my new kind of crew, staff and old of, you know, they're saying like, oh, I can tell that you've, like, worked before because you know how to talk to people, which is bizarre. And I kind of laugh at it, but I'm like, oh, that's true. Because so many, you know, doctors and higher educated people that go straight through, they don't have very good people people skills sometimes. And unfortunately, that comes out as arrogance and rudeness and demanding. And it just is really bad for building relationships. And they don't build those relationships with the people that they're supposed to be teammates with, honestly. And so it makes a world of a difference if, you know, a nurse calls me in the middle of night with a problem that I listen to her, you know, and she's trying to give her the benefit of the doubt that she's calling me at the two in the morning for a legitimate reason.
- [170:07]
A
She's not calling you to annoy you.
- [170:09]
B
Correct.
- [170:09]
A
Or make your night worse.
- [170:10]
B
Yeah.
- [170:10]
A
Like, she's not like, watch this.
- [170:12]
B
Exactly.
- [170:13]
A
She needs help.
- [170:13]
B
Yeah. And. Exactly. And if other specialties call for a surgery consult, there's so many times that, you know, you're tired and you know, you don't want to deal with it. And people will kind of scoff like, oh, why did internal medicine consult for me? This, this is ridiculous. But they're calling because they need your help. So help them build that relationship. Be there for them. And then you might need their help on some complicated like diabetes or hypertension plan later on that's not surgery related. You know, and then they're going to help you out because you have that relationship.
- [170:43]
A
Call that cover and move.
- [170:45]
B
Exactly. Yes.
- [170:47]
C
Weird.
- [170:47]
A
Yeah. That's awesome. Thank you, Sarah.
- [170:49]
B
Yeah.
- [170:49]
C
Well, speaking of COVID and move, let's talk about some of the folks that help make this podcast happen. First off, if you want to be part of the conversation as we continue on making more of these podcasts, if you have questions about our interview with Sarah, stuff that we discussed with Andrew Paul, if you want to give us some feedback on maybe you've got some experiences like that and how the show has helped you and, and helped to develop you as a leader, as a human, follow us on Instagram. Check out at the JPDonell podcast. P. Donnell it's two n's, two l's. I'm at Lucas Pinkard. Go check out Echelon from Front. Now the folks over at Echelon Front are the ones who teach leadership lessons that Sarah was talking about. She follows. JP is the Chief Training Officer at Echelon Front. Go check out an ftx. We talked a little bit about the Muster. Go check out the muster. Muster 024 tickets are on sale for the Muster in Nashville in April.
- [171:46]
A
We have FTX 19 in March. I think it's already halfway sold out.
- [171:50]
C
That's what I'm talking about. And is that an individual ftx?
- [171:53]
A
It's the individual ftx, which is two days. And Cody and I are trying to work through stuff this week, maybe next week at the latest. Whether that week we'll also roll out our first advanced individual ftx.
- [172:07]
C
Oh, bro.
- [172:08]
A
So that will only be available for individuals that have been through either a corporate or an individual ftx. So let's say your company, like Groundworks, you went through the individual FTX.
- [172:20]
B
And.
- [172:20]
A
You'Re like, hey, I want to. Sorry, you went through the corporate FTX and you want to do the advanced ftx, you can come to that. Or if you've attended any of the individual ftx, whether it was a one day, two day or post muster ftx, you can then at that point sign up for the advanced ftx. And that might, if we, if we roll it out, that'll be that same week, but it will not be in dfw. We have a few different other locations that we're looking at.
- [172:46]
C
I want.
- [172:48]
A
Battlefield.
- [172:49]
C
Yeah, well, well, jumping a creek, filming at ftx. So I think I'm, I'm ready for the advanced. Yeah, there is the council, there's the battlefield. Go check all that stuff out@echelonfront.com if you want JP or one of the other instructors to work with your organization. You want to sign up for that Extreme Ownership online academy, Go check out extreme ownership.com@echelonfront.com and if you want a little bit more information, email info at echelon Front we talked about little cattle company Bruiser Arms is a company that jp, Leif and Jocko partner with are in partnership together with they do custom gear packages and training. Make sure that you check them out if you need stuff to protect yourself and your home. On the path printing for all your apparel printing needs. Jesus and Jiu Jitsu is an organization organization that we both belong to. On January 24th, we've got Victor Hugo coming into DFW at Six Blades Jiu Jitsu doing a a free seminar which is going to be awesome. And if you haven't seen it already on the desks in front of us, we've got Jocko goes. We've got hydrates. Because the things that keep us fueled to do this podcast are the people over at Jocko Fuel. Make sure that you go check them out. There's tons of studies that have been done on things like creatine and krill oil and all of these things that help keep you going day in and day out. The best place to get it, the cleanest supplements are@jockofuel.com use code JPPOD20 to save 20% at checkout. And if you aren't already on their text message list, go get on it. The death reset has just started. We're just a couple of days into the new year. Make sure that you go sign up for the Def Reset. There's discounts that are available for people who are part of that. There's special deals going on for anybody who's connected to the DEF Reset. And go sign up for your text messages over@originusa.com too. They've got factory seconds that are coming out that have to do with the giant just manufacturing boom that they saw at the end of 2025 with all the extra orders. There's some things that, you know what, maybe the chains were a little bit too long. They've got some factory seconds that are out there. You can't tell the difference. They also have a bunch of deals right now on training gear. Why? Well, because the deaf reset's going and Pete and Amanda Roberts are in the game with that as well. So go check out those companies. They've been a huge supporter of our podcast and everything that we're doing and, and I'm done Talking. Jp, what do you got?
- [175:17]
A
Well, I know Sarah's gonna close us out with some thoughts. You know, the question we always ask guess is, you know, if you could leave our audience with one piece of advice to help them win in life with the health, with sobriety, marriage, business, trauma, what would it be? But before you do that, when you're. You guys were, when you and Brian were packing, getting ready to come out here, you asked me actually about creatine.
- [175:43]
B
Yeah.
- [175:43]
A
And you're like, hey, do you have enough creatine for me to be able to have seven and a half grams a day? And I said, absolutely, because you didn't not answer packets. But why, why is that important to you? Why is creatine.
- [175:57]
B
Love creatine. So creatine is one of the most studied supplements, period. And it is just proven time and time again to be safe and helpful for so many things. The old kind of worry that people think that, oh, it's going to build up your kidneys. Well, creatinine that we measure kidney function is not creatine. And so it looks the same on paper, but it's not the same thing. And so any supplement, not just creatine, if you have already pre existing poor kidney function, you should be speaking to your doctor about it. But if you're a normal person, healthy, like us, you can have creatine every single day and it is not gonna hurt you. It is very helpful. It does not build up in your kidneys. You know, so that's the common question. I get. It is very studied to be safe. And so five grams a day is usually the starting that people say. And it usually takes anywhere from two to four weeks for you to really feel the effects. But it's kind of a gradual onset for recovery, for stamina, for strength. But I've gone up to seven and a half and I'm probably gonna end up going up to 10 eventually because that's now what's being shown to also improve your cognitive function.
- [177:14]
C
That's what I'm talking about.
- [177:15]
B
Yes.
- [177:16]
A
Five in the morning, five at night.
- [177:17]
B
Correct?
- [177:18]
A
Yeah, all 10 at once.
- [177:19]
B
So what I've been doing Now, I'm at seven and a half and I'll probably do with 10 is I have a big water bottle. I put it all in at once with my salt. Cause I also drink salt water every day.
- [177:29]
A
Wait, but I thought sodium was bad for you.
- [177:31]
B
Oh, no, turns out it's not bad for you.
- [177:33]
A
What?
- [177:34]
B
Yeah, I know. Again, unless you're on dialysis and you or you have Heart failure. Right. But the majority of people are otherwise a healthy individual. It's very helpful for hydration because your body works with your water and osmosis and salt and concentrations and things like that.
- [177:53]
C
I've heard some of these words before.
- [177:54]
B
Right. It's all kind of coming together. And so if you just consume water all the time, you're actually not getting enough. As hydrated as you think, it's not going to stay as intravascular as you think. It's going to what we call third space and kind of leak out into your capillaries. So the salt helps keep it in your vessels. And so for someone like me who's chronically hypotensive or has low blood pressure, that's very helpful. And for someone who likes to run, well, like is a strong word. For someone who runs and sweats, who tolerates running. Who tolerates running for what I need to do. Right. That's really important for hydration, to actually stay hydrated. These choco hydrates are amazing on the go, too.
- [178:36]
C
So I use the 300 mgs of the sodium.
- [178:39]
B
Yeah. I typically take in about a thousand a day, sometimes up to 2,000 a day, depending on what's going on. Minimum of 1,000 a day for me personally. Right. Everyone's different. And I mix that with my creatine and just sip the water bottle throughout the day.
- [178:52]
A
That's huge. When you were going through that officer training in Alabama in the summer, you had the, you were telling me, like, the Jocko fuel creatine and the hydration sticks that you add to your water was a game changer for you.
- [179:07]
B
Absolutely.
- [179:08]
A
Yeah.
- [179:08]
B
Yeah, absolutely. So it's like a mandatory every day for me.
- [179:11]
A
And even if somebody's not going through that hard, hot physical activity, this is something that every human, unless they have those outline things, but most people, our listeners, should be consuming the Jocko fuel, creatine and hydrates just as a baseline for optimal. Like, just, hey, you want to function throughout the day, you want to be able to pay attention, get rid of brain fog, help with recovery.
- [179:36]
B
It also helps, like, curb your cravings.
- [179:39]
A
What?
- [179:40]
B
Yeah. So if, I mean, you're keeping your body fueled with what it actually, actually needs, it decreases your cravings for the junk that you don't need. So if you're actually getting fueled by the nutrients your body craves, like minerals, vitamins, salt, healthy things, you, over time, stop craving the junk. Like sugar, like sugar, processed things.
- [180:05]
C
Jelly beans.
- [180:06]
B
Jelly beans, exactly. Yeah. So that vitamin D is the other one. I have my Jocko vitamin D every day. And that's also been proven to reduce risk of colon cancer, improve heart health. There's tons of studies out there, and so I take one every day.
- [180:23]
A
So what's your Jocko fuel stack?
- [180:25]
B
Oh, man.
- [180:26]
A
Daily.
- [180:27]
B
I might as well be 70 because I have a pillbox and I have my multivitamin. I have one with iron in it. Them a female. That's helpful, right? For Jocko specifically, I have the Jocko vitamin D. I have the Jocko magnesium. I take. I take zinc and I take turmeric, and I take the fish oil. The krill oil.
- [180:53]
A
Yep. Awesome. And then the creatine.
- [180:55]
B
And then the creatine, and then the.
- [180:56]
C
Hydrogen, fish oil and krill oil.
- [180:57]
B
Or one or the other.
- [180:58]
C
One or the other.
- [180:59]
A
But you can do both.
- [181:01]
B
Yeah, you don't need to do both, but one or the other, depending on which bottle I opened that month. Yeah, basically.
- [181:07]
A
Awesome.
- [181:08]
B
Yeah. Well, and in terms of, you know, those are the vitamins, supplements, overall health, you know, closing thoughts. Otherwise, I would say, you know, circling back to when your kids are learning to walk and they fall down. You know, when you fall down, just think of what your baby did or your niece or your nephew. Right. They didn't stay down and feel sorry for themselves. So get back up and run. Don't stop.
- [181:35]
A
Well, with that, I hope this episode has been a reminder for all of us to go do the work that's needed to put in the effort to build your legacy and to never settle. This has been the JP&L podcast, episode 119.