Prevent Communication Breakdowns | JP Dinnell Podcast 133

Summary

JP Dinnell Podcast 133: "Prevent Communication Breakdowns"

Date: April 10, 2026
Hosts: JP Dinnell & Lucas Pinckard
Theme: The Power of the "Read Back" (Reback) to Protect Teams from Communication Failure

---

Episode Overview

In this episode, JP Dinnell and Lucas Pinckard dive deep into preventing communication breakdowns using the military practice of "read back"—a technique where instructions are repeated back to ensure mutual understanding. Drawing on JP’s extensive SEAL and leadership experience at Echelon Front, the discussion focuses on practical strategies for leaders to gain alignment, eliminate miscommunication, and drive ownership up and down the chain of command—without causing members of their team to feel micromanaged or distrusted.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What is a "Read Back" and Why Does It Matter?

• Definition & Purpose:
  • In the military, after a leader brieifed a plan, someone was asked to repeat key details (timeline, objectives, constraints, priorities) to ensure everybody’s on the same page. The process goes both ways (up and down the chain of command).
  • JP: "When people don't understand, they can't execute. When someone repeats information back, it gives both sides a chance to catch misunderstandings early before time, effort and resources are wasted." [01:00]
• Why It’s Needed:
  • Misalignment leads to mistakes, inefficiency, safety issues, and morale problems.
  • Readbacks are about verifying communication, not a test of trust or attention.

2. Addressing "Trust" and Ego: How to Frame the Read Back

• Bad Framing:
  • If a leader says "Repeat that back to me" with the wrong tone, team members can interpret it as distrust or micromanagement.
• Good Framing:
  • Instead, phrase it as "Just to make sure I communicated that clearly, what are the key takeaways?" or, when speaking up the chain: "Just to ensure I understand your guidance…".
• Responsibility:
  • Shifts from testing others to ensuring your communication is effective. Removes ego, fosters open discussion, and builds team trust.
  • JP: "The read back is a test for whether or not you communicated effectively." [02:30]

3. Making Read Backs a Habit—Not a Pop Quiz

• Implement Gradually:
  • Let the team know in advance that you’ll use read backs—not as a test, but to improve your communication.
  • Rotate who is asked, so it's not always the same person or just the "trusted" team members.
• Benefits:
  • Forces better listening, encourages note taking, increases comfort with asking questions, and builds a positive learning culture.
  • JP: "When it becomes part of your culture, people are comfortable doing it because they understand all the boss wants is alignment so that we can go out there and do our job the right way..." [12:32]

4. When Mistakes Happen: The Leader Owns Communication

• When a team member doesn't get a detail right, the leader takes responsibility—clarifies, reiterates the message, and checks understanding again.
  • JP: "Hey Lucas, I'm sorry, I wasn't clear… The reason why we're starting at 7 is this... I'm sorry, I wasn't clear on that... Remember, what time are we starting? It's not eight, it's what time?" [15:50–16:30]

5. The False Objection: "I Don't Have Time"

• Many leaders skip the read back (or similar verification) because it seems too time-consuming.
• In reality, the time lost to errors, rework, and safety issues is far worse.
  • JP: "[The read back] could take an extra 5, 10, 15 minutes...But I've worked with companies...that the read back has saved them tens and tens, and some hundreds of thousands of dollars." [18:00–21:41]

6. Adapting the Technique to Context and Individuals

• Meeting Length: For a long meeting, do several short read backs at checkpoints, plus a final recap.
• Shy or Struggling Team Members:
  • Start with small asks, coach note-taking, and build their confidence gradually.
  • Always aim to build people up, not embarrass them.
• Everywhere, Not Just Work:
  • Technique applies in business, family, even informal situations (e.g. confirming which restaurant to meet at).
  • Lucas: "Reminders app for the grocery store is a form of read back!" [23:57]

7. Real-Time Assessment & Culture Building

• Read back provides instant feedback on the clarity of your communication.
• Gaps may reveal issues with relationship, trust, or engagement that a leader must address—with humility and ownership.
• Avoid embarrassing or "popping quiz" a team member who struggles in the moment.
  • JP: "If I just go, alright, cool, you don't know, hey Josh, you know...Are you like, man, that was awesome of JP I’m really glad he did that? Not at all." [46:46]

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Mistakes are made when people don’t understand all the key pieces of information. And when we look at things through the lens of Extreme Ownership, we always have to bring it back on ourselves." — JP [03:53]
• "The reback should be non-negotiable. It was non-negotiable in the SEAL teams because we wanted to make sure our people were going to be safe and understood right." — JP [13:35]
• "If people are getting multiple things wrong with the brief you just gave, why is that? Were you too vague? Did you give too much information? Were you too complicated with your communication? Man, there’s so many things that we do wrong when we’re communicating." — JP [29:30]
• "If I have somebody that struggles… and they’re not taking notes, I have failed as a leader to not explain to them the importance of taking notes." — JP [32:46]
• On readbacks and team confidence: "Anybody can give one thing. So you give that one thing. I’m like, cool, good to go Lucas. Then I move on to the next person." — JP [39:30]
• On calling out disengaged team members: "Because that’s your ego flaring up and you’re frustrated at them, not at yourself. Instead of saying, 'Hey Lucas, I’m sorry I wasn’t clear,' it’s actually pointing the finger."** — JP [46:01]
• "You don’t have to do it alone. Show humility, ask for help, ask for feedback, receive it with humility and grace." — JP [52:37]

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:01 - 03:50: Introduction & reading from Echelon Front’s "Rundown" on the read back
• 05:00 - 06:27: The real-world value of read backs & analogy to meeting minutes
• 06:27 - 12:30: How to frame read backs to build trust and alignment (not suspicion)
• 15:14 - 18:20: How to handle mistakes during a read back (ownership and humility)
• 21:03 - 21:41: Why time invested in the read back pays off much more than the risk of rework
• 22:05 - 24:25: How to implement read backs during long meetings, and in personal life
• 32:46 - 41:16: Coaching shy or struggling team members; lessons on note-taking
• 43:00 - 45:15: Phones, engagement, and overcommunicating your intent
• 45:15 - 47:30: Avoiding public pop quizzes; how to correct without ego or embarrassment
• 52:37: Final advice on fighting complacency, seeking feedback, working as a team

---

Actionable Takeaways

• Make read backs standard: Announce their use as part of improving your own communication, not to catch others.
• Always own communication errors: If someone misunderstands, go back and clarify. It’s your job.
• Coach & build up your people: Help team members develop skills and confidence. Never use read backs to embarrass.
• Apply read backs everywhere: Family, personal, and professional life all benefit from alignment.
• Combat complacency: Continuous self-assessment and adaptation is necessary—don’t settle for “good enough.”

---

Tone & Language

Warm, direct, highly practical, and focused on humility, Extreme Ownership, and caring for your people—a tone reflective of both hosts' SEAL background and coaching style.

---

This episode is a masterclass in practical leadership communication, combining military discipline with deep empathy—a must-listen for anyone looking to prevent costly, frustrating misalignment in any context.

Transcript

[A]

Good morning. This is the JP N podcast, episode 133. I am JP Nnell and as always, I have Lucas with me. Communication breakdowns cause problems in execution. In the military, we use a simple tool to create clarity, the read back. After a leader presented a plan, they would ask someone on the team to repeat the key details they understood. Timeline, objective, constraints and priorities. Likewise for frontline, leaders use a reback up the chain of command to ensure they understood their boss's guidance. That quick confirmation created alignment, prevented misunderstanding and enabled the team to execute effectively. But in some workplaces, using the reback can feel like micromanagement. Leaders say repeat that back to me and the team hears I don't trust you. That friction comes from how the leader frames it. We rebacks are not about control. They are not a test for whether people are paying attention. The reback is a test for whether or not you communicated effectively. When people don't understand, they can't execute. When someone repeats information back, it gives both sides a chance to catch misunderstandings early before time, effort and resources are wasted moving in the wrong direction or on the wrong priority. The read back encourages discussion and interactions up, down and across the chain of command to ensure alignment. The key is how you implement it. Instead of demanding someone on the team repeat back what you just briefed. Ask just to make sure I communicated that clearly. What are the key takeaways? Or if applying the reback up the chain of command, say just to ensure I understand your guidance. The top priorities I should be focused are on now. The responsibility shifts where it belongs, on you. You are not testing the team or telling your boss they haven't communicated clearly. You are verifying the communication to ensure everyone ensures and can execute. This simple shift removes the ego from the exchange. It turns read backs into a tool for mutual understanding instead of a signal of distrust. Distrust. Next week, identify one reoccurring task or meeting where miscommunication often happens. Before the meeting, let a key person know you'll be asking for the reback as a test of your communication, not a pop quiz to try to to try to trip them up. After giving direction, ask the team to summarize the key points and next steps. Frame it as confirmation of your communication, not a test of yours. So what I just read was from the rundown. Rundown actually 171. And this is a weekly email that Echelon Front sends out that Leif Babin puts together. I know we've shared the rundown on here before, but I really enjoyed this One. It came out last week and when I was reading, I was just thinking about just obviously what we teach at Echelon Front in regards to prioritize and execute. I teach the reback every single time I talk, whether it's in a keynote, half day, full day workshop, FTXS, all the LDAPs that we do at Echelon Front. We talk about the Muster. I mean, the council, they review it. Battlefield reviews, they. They do these as well. We talk about this on Extreme Ownership Academy often. And the reason why we talk about it so often and every single time we are doing an event is because it's an extremely powerful tool that helps you gain alignment. Mistakes are made from misalignment. Mistakes are made when people don't understand all the key pieces of information. And when we look at things through the lens of Extreme Ownership, we always have to bring it back on ourselves. So. So I just wanted to read that and I know Lucas and I are going to be able to break that down and it can. I mean, what's cool about the rundown is it's one thing once a week for you to focus on that next week. It's an incredible tool. And also I like, you know, when it comes out at the end of the week, it's also a good reminder as you can look back on the week and be like, okay, cool, I'm getting this on, on, on Friday. And then as you look back throughout the week and say, all right, man, did I do this? Where did I miss Mark? Where could this have helped me last week? Cool, let's be intentional next week with implementing these things. And it's also aligned with some of the things I wanted us to talk about today in regards to time and priorities and just this idea and concept of not doing things alone, which ties into all the laws of combat that we teach at Echelon Front. What Lucas and I have talked about here a lot on this podcast. But before we do that, Lucas, how are you, buddy?

[B]

Man, I'm doing great. And the readback is probably one of the most effective tools that we have in any of the meetings that we do. Not just with our stuff, with a podcast, things that happen at the church, but with all of the organizations that I work with. And maybe the form of readback that most people are familiar with are the minutes from a business meeting, right? That when we look at those kinds of things, like we're taught those things when we're really early on, they may be things that we neglect. That is probably the first form of A read back that we're introduced to. Because the next time we get together, you know, if those meetings are monthly or quarterly or whatever, then you want to review, hey, what were the things we talked about last time? What were the actionable steps? If the minutes aren't there, then you can't do it. So this is kind of in. In the way that I've used it is it's just like a form of the minutes, but just for that specific meeting. Now, you mentioned at the beginning, or I guess really as y' all were wrapping up, that the, the way that you implement the readback is often to find a trusted person, somebody that you're not going to offend with. The way that you ask about, you know, tell me what I said, that kind of thing. Start there. Why is it so important to start this with somebody that you know is already somebody that's. That's kind of within your. Your group of. Of trust may already be a leader in the organization? Why is that such an important thing?

[A]

Well, what's cool about that is, I mean, I'll re. Read through. I don't think I read that. But that's what you heard and interpreted. Because we've talked about the reback so much. And that's also the natural tendency is when people implement the reback, Lucas, they want to pick somebody that they know, trust, have a good relationship with, and probably also subconsciously or maybe a little consciously, I'm gonna pick you because I know you listen, pay attention, take notes, and you're gonna do the reback. Well, the intent behind the reback is to test your communication and gain alignment. The thing that you're talking about is you want to let them know ahead of time. I'm not just gonna get done with a brief or a meeting or a plan of the day and say, you know and look to you or you know and be. Hey, Lucas, could you brief back to me what we just talked about? I just want to make sure we're on the same page and to make sure that we have alignment. I want to make sure my communication was simple, clear, and concise so that I know what. What you took from it and what I need to do to support you. Now, if I say it that way and frame it that way, yes, I'm looking at it through the lens of extreme ownership. But if I. Even if I say that the right way, if I waited until after that brief meeting, plan of the day, safety brief, tailboard, whatever it is, is there a slight chance that you think I'm Calling on you to see if you were paying attention. Yeah, there's a slight chance. Now, let's just say because you and I have such a good relationship and like you were talking about that trusted agent that, you know isn't going to take it the wrong way. Is there the thing that we have to ask ourselves, is there a possibility that somebody else on the team could perceive me asking for the reback as testing to see if you are paying attention and listening? Yes. So even if there's a small percentage chance on either one of those, I don't want to do that because that would be a withdrawal in the leadership capital that I have with you and a leadership capital that I have with my team because I never want to use my position, rank, title, whatever, with, with intimidation and fear. I don't ever want people to think I'm doing these things to set the example or you know, you know, be trying to, I'm trying to phrase this the right way. I don't want my people to think I'm doing that and to subconsciously, or I'm sorry, indirectly tell them, hey, you better be paying attention because if you're not, this is going to happen to you. That would be a horrible thing for me to do as a leader. I would lose a lot of respect and trust with my people. I would lose influence with my people. And if I don't have those things, I don't have a relationship. Therefore I can't actually lead my people. The other aspect of it is, man, if I'm in a leadership position, I don't ever want my people to feel embarrassed, to feel stupid, and to think that I was putting them in a position where they, they feel that way. I want my people to win. I want them to feel good. I want them to be encouraged. I want them to know I have their back. And the best way for my people to know I have their back is to make sure we have alignment. That's why I do the read back. It's one to test my communication to make sure it's simple, clear and concise so that it's effective. And when my communication is simple, clear and concise and it's effective, my people now know what they need to do to go execute. That's how I support my people, is I set them up for success so that they can go win. The other aspect of it is now people know that this is what we're doing. So if I start off the meeting and say, hey guys, I've been trying to work on my communication I know sometimes my communication isn't simple, clear, and concise. I know, I know I have a lot to work on as a leader with my communication. So one of the things I would like to start implementing is a read back. So moving forward, whenever we get done with a brief meeting, whatever it is that you're having regularly with your people, just letting them know, hey, whenever we get done with it, I. I'm going to call upon a few of you to brief back to me the top priorities that you got from that and the key pieces of information to make sure my communication was clear and we're on the same page. And so if you have questions during this meeting, feel free to ask. If you want to wait until the end, hey, take some notes, write those things down. At the very. At the end of this, I'm going to, you know, offer up some time for some questions, answer any questions you guys might have, and then, hey, Lucas, this first time, I'm going to have you and Josh brief back to me what we talked about in this meeting, and then. And then we'll move from there. And, hey, just moving forward, I'm going to do this every time. And so it's going to be different people each time. So if you guys want to grab something to take notes, feel free. If you want to use your phone, tablet, computer to take notes, feel free. And again, if you have questions, please ask me through the brief or write them down so we can get to it at the very end. What's the likelihood, Lucas, that you and Josh are paying a little more attention though, this time, knowing that I'm going to have you brief it back to me? High or low?

[B]

Oh, it's much higher.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. What's the likelihood everybody else is paying a little more attention knowing that I might call on them also afterwards? Higher level.

[B]

It's much higher. Yeah.

[A]

What's the likelihood that people are actually taking notes now when they normally wouldn't? Do you think it might improve a little bit?

[B]

For sure, yeah.

[A]

And also, do you think people are going to be a little more inclined and. Or comfortable to ask questions, to just clear the air no matter what, even if in their mind they're good to go and they'd be like, hey, I just want to make sure a few things. Lucas, did I get this right? Boom, boom, boom. And you're like, yep, good to go. And what's cool is when it becomes a part of your culture, people are comfortable doing it because they understand, hey, all the boss wants is alignment so that we can go out there and do our job the right way to be safe, efficient and effective. Safety number one. And then efficiency and effectiveness. People don't like to make mistakes at work. So this is also a good way to help just indirectly improve the morale. Because when your people are winning, doing the right things and not making mistakes and having to do rework and wasting time and money and, or getting written up because they made mistakes and that cost a company money or got somebody hurt, this improves the morale. People like to have alignment. Why do spouses argue it's because Misalignment. Why is there friction at home with your kids? Because Misalignment. Why is there friction in business partners? Misalignment. And that's why we have to like err on the side of over communication and be willing to have hard conversations. And the awkwardness of a reback because when I teach this all the time people will ask, well, I mean, is that a little weird and awkward? And I say yeah, but what, what awkwardness would you rather endure working through a reback and getting alignment or the awkwardness of somebody getting injured, killed or doing something wrong that costs the company time and money and everybody 100% of the time over the last nine and a half years. Lucas has said their first one. Absolutely. And so that's why I tell them, hey, the reback should be a non negotiable. It was a non negotiable in the SEAL teams because we wanted to make sure our people were going to be safe and they understood what they needed to do, why they needed to do it a certain way or why we were doing something. And then the beautiful thing about extreme ownership and the four laws of combat, you do this with decentralized command. I'm also driving ownership down to you and your team to create a plan. Therefore you have more buy in and you're, you're going to do these things and it's cool when it becomes part of your culture. You don't even have to like I don't have to ask Cody to give me a reback or Josh to give me a reback or Justin or any of the guys on the FTX team. Like they just do it. All right, cool. Hey, just want to make sure this, this, that. Yep, cool. So sounds good. And we'll do it. And I was doing it with one of the ladies on our operations team that handles travel. She sent me a text message and I said hey, just to confirm. And I read it. I didn't send the whole text back. I said, I just confirmed. The key pieces of that text for some upcoming travel. And she said, yep, good to go. I said, thank you.

[B]

When you do a read back, you know there's this risk that's involved in it, right? You just gave the example, like, hey, you gave it to the lady who's helping you travel. Able to confirm things, you know, good to go. Now if in that situation, since the, the way we've framed the readback is that, hey, this is me working on my communication, making sure that I'm communicating clearly, which is true and honest about why we do the readback when somebody gets it wrong.

[A]

Oh, yeah, easy.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. How do you, how do you address it when they get it wrong?

[A]

Hey, Lucas, I'm sorry, I wasn't clear. I know normally we start these projects at 8am we actually are starting this project at 7am because the vendor that we're working with that we're subbing out is going to take four hours and they have to be done by 11am so we're starting at 7am so that way they can be done at 11am I'm sorry, I wasn't clear on that. Hey, if you want to go ahead and write that down and make sure you have that key timeframe written down to make sure when you go talk with your team, it's good to go, awesome. If not, if you're good, I'm good. But hey, remember, what time are we starting? It's not eight, it's what time?

[B]

Seven.

[A]

Yes, sir. Awesome. Hey, let me know what I can do. Yeah, and so it's, it's, it's you taking ownership. Because here's the other thing. Let's say I'm giving the brief. I'm like, all right, guys, hey, job starting at 7am because vendor, you know, for four hours, needs to be out by 11. Hey, we need to make sure we have all these things staged. And I'm like going through all of the things and the last six months we've been starting at 8am Is there a likelihood that when I'm saying, hey, guys, we're starting the project, you're like, boom. I already know when we start the project, it's always 8am and so what I could have done is, hey, guys, I know we Normally start at 8. Hey, I need everybody paying attention. We are starting at 7. The reason why we're starting at 7 is this vendor that we subbed out has a four hour window. They have to be done at 11am and we also have to be done with this. So the next crew can be rolling in and getting ready to start their piece by 11:15. So instead of us starting at 8, we have a start time of 7am we are starting at 7am because the 4 hour window.

[B]

All right.

[A]

Hey guys, what time are we starting? Seven. Seven. All right, cool. Good to go. So next thing on the agenda, if I know that something is being change that is slightly out of the rhythm of what my people do every day, I will take more time to reiterate and communicate that to my people. To make sure we have alignment, I'm going to repeat it 3, 4, 5 times before I move on to the next thing. If I didn't do that, that was my fault. That's a key piece of information that's really important. We're starting at 7, not 8. We're used to starting at 8. I'm going to reiterate that time and get confirmation. I was doing this with a client and the guy had a good example. And I've done this before with buddies. And he's like, yeah, I actually have a real example of this. And he goes, I wish I would have had this tool. He goes, the other day I was meeting some co workers, we're gonna meet up at this place to grab some food. And one of the guys is like, hey, you wanna meet at so and so place? He's like, yeah, cool. Hey, cool, we'll meet there. And he gets there and he's like, I don't know how I beat these guys, but all right. He's sitting around, he gets a text and the guy's like, where you at? He's like, I'm here. So he picks up the phone, he's like, I'm here. They're like, no, you're not. We're here. He goes, what location are you at? And they're like, oh, we went to this one. He goes, I thought we're going to this one because it's close to the office. And the guy's like, man, I'm sorry, bro. Yeah, we went to this other location because we got to go here afterwards and it's closer to where we're going. He's like, man, all right, cool, I'm on my way. And he's like, man, I wasted time. He goes, if I would have just asked them, hey, what location are we going back to? Oh, the one off of Madison and out greenback. Cool, awesome. I'll see you at that one. And it's just taking a little more time, putting a little more effort into doing these things. And I wouldn't say like the biggest, but a big hurdle that people have to overcome consciously in their mind about the reback is everybody is so rushed. We have so many things to do throughout the day, and guys are already on type timelines. They want to put out the word and get their people out there and start working. The reback could take an extra 5, 10, 15 minutes, depending on how many people you're doing it with, depending on, you know, how many moving parts there are. And so people will tell themselves that lie of. And I know we've talked about a lot, I don't have time. In reality, they're not making a priority. And I've worked with companies that have implemented the reback, that have saved their companies tens and tens and some hundreds of thousands of dollars by implementing the reback because of the misalignment that happened in the brief. And if they wouldn't have done the reback, the people that were out getting ready to go execute the work, by time, they would have realized that they were doing the wrong work. There would have been tens and tens. And I have another company that it saved them hundreds of thousands of dollars of rework. So if you look at that from a business standpoint and how do I mean, let alone the time, the time that the rework takes, which there's also costs associated with that time and labor and overtime and now all these things, which of those do you think in the, in the long run is going to be a best use of your time?

[B]

Oh, that's 25 minutes. Yeah.

[A]

Every time. Even if it took you 30 minutes extra to do a reback, which I know seems like a lot of time because, man, an extra 30 minutes in the morning, that's crazy. But I mean, you know, rework on a job could cost hours, if not days, depending on what was done wrong and how long you were. You were doing those things. And then the ultimate trump card on all of this, as to why we should always do the reback. If it keeps your people safe, is it worth it? And the answer is always going to BE Yes.

[B]

Yeah, 100%. 100%.

[A]

We have to make the revax a priority.

[B]

So when you do the readback, are you going point by point? Like, are you. Are you assessing or are you letting the person who does the readback finish the entire read back and then go back? Or are you after, you know, maybe a.

[A]

Depending on how long the brief is.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I mean it. And I would. I've had this question. It's a great question. I always tell people you know your people better than I ever will. So if it's going to be an hour long brief, maybe every 15 minutes, do a quick readback. So you do four quick little rebacks throughout it, and then at the very end, you're doing a final recap reback with two, three people. It just depends on how long the brief is, how important these tasks are, how mission critical the tasks are. What's the inherent risk associated with these tasks, physically and also financially to the company. Like, these are all things that you have to put in the calculus. There's. It's not a one size fits all type of thing. This is something that you can flex and mold to make unique to your. Your company, your culture, your industry, your family, your relationship. You know, obviously with my wife, you know, I'm not gonna be like, hey, hey, Amanda, give me a read back on what we just talked about. Yeah, that's probably not gonna work out well. And, you know, if she did that with me, I'd be like, all right, that's just weird, you know, but when we're talking, we'll. We'll. We'll talk back and forth, and then at the end, there's times where I'm like, hey, okay, I just want to make sure I have this right, and I'll ask questions. And Amanda's really good at doing this. Really good at doing this in our marriage, because we'll be talking and she'll be like, all right, hey, so this, this, and this. I'm like, yep, good to go. She also does this. It's a version of it. When I go to the grocery store to get her stuff, she'll tell me what to get, and then she sends it in a text message so then I can take that, copy it, paste it in the notes of my phone. And then as I get each thing, I put a little check, little check mark next to each thing. And then that way I know I got all the things that she wanted. And also I know she does it so I don't just get a bunch of extra stuff that's not on the list, because I might be slightly guilty of that.

[B]

We use the. The Reminders app. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because Kirsten will send me to the store, and then as I'm checking the Reminders app, there will be things added to the list as she's walking around the house so that she's not having to call me or text me every time that she needs to add something else to it. It's just getting added, you know, to to the list. And if we need to, you know, if there's something that's not there or whatever, we can make notes and stuff on each of the individual items. It's pretty rad.

[A]

I like that.

[B]

Okay, so length of time is kind of what determines how often you do a read back in a meeting. Or you know what those maybe stopping points are if there's like several sections or multiple pieces to a specific meeting where there's a lot of moving pieces or teams working together. When you're receiving a read back from somebody, what percentage of misinformation do they have to start relaying before you stop them? Like, if, if 10% of what they've relayed to you is. Is wrong, then, you know, you can address those things. Clear communication up. But what if it becomes pretty obvious early on that like, yes, we did this for sake of our communication, but maybe they get halfway through the read back or maybe they're a third of the way through the read back and so far they've not gotten any details right. Again, what point. Yeah, at what point do you stop them and say, hey, as each thing

[A]

comes up that's wrong?

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Because here's the other thing that could be an inherent risk is, you know, let's say you're listing off things and I'm like, okay, second thing was wrong in my mind, right? Or I'm like, right. I'm like, all right, second thing, third thing, fifth thing. 7. Like now I have to remember all the things that were misaligned. And so you're, you're giving me like, all right, hey, we're starting at 7am and then once we're done, we're gonna shift to this. And that's wrong. I'm not going to let you keep going. But hey, I'm sorry, Lucas, I wasn't clear. Yes, you are correct. We're starting at 7am but our first priority shift is this. It's. It's actually this. Okay, cool. So what's our first priority shift, Lucas? And you're like, boom. That. I'm like, cool. Awesome. Hey, bud, I'm sorry, I wasn't clear. I know I gave you a bunch of information. I put a lot of stuff out there. All right, so 7:00am, first priority shift. Boom. All right, cool. And then you go along and everything else is good to go. Cool. And then let's say you're going along and then something's wrong again. Hey, Lucas, one second real quick. It's actually, we need to make sure that we are loading this and not that. Remember, the reason why we're loading this new tool is because of this reason. This is why we need to be doing this in the sequence. And we're not doing this anymore because of this. So which, which tool are we loading and why? You repeat it back to me, we're good. All right, cool. You go on, boom, we're done. I mean, there's not an official thing that we teach, but as you're saying these, you asking these questions, I'm saying it out loud. I mean, I would really be evaluating my communication if you've gotten two big things wrong. And I would just say, hey, guys. All right, let's condense this. And I'm going to use some tools, a whiteboard, an easel, like something that I can actually write these things down as I'm re briefing my people. You have to think about it that through the lens of extreme ownership, if people are getting multiple things wrong with the brief you just gave, why is that? Were you too vague? Did you give too much information? Were you too complicated with your communication? Man, there's so many things that we do wrong when we're communicating, so we have to be hypercritical of ourselves and assess these things and that's what's cool. We talk about the reback. I'm sorry. We talk about doing honest self assessments. The reback is a real time assessment that's going to tell you was your communication effective or not. And if you're getting a bunch of stuff wrong, man, I suck at my communication. I, I need to get much better at my communication. Now, I've had this question before. Well, what if the people just aren't listening to you? Okay, well, that's a red flag to a bigger issue. And the bigger issue is we don't have a good relationship. You don't respect me. You don't think what I'm talking about is important. I have damaged this relationship somehow in the past, and so I need to now figure out how to make sure that we have alignment moving forward. And then I need to be very intentional with rebuilding that relationship because how often do you think when Jocko and Leif are talking to me that I intentionally zone out and don't listen to them?

[B]

I would think hardly ever.

[A]

It's zero.

[B]

I would say zero. That you intentionally zone out, but hardly ever that it. That it happens?

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Hardly ever that happens. Does it happen? Yes. I'm a flawed human. I get distracted. I have, you know. You know. But I'm telling you, it's hardly. It is Hardly. How many times do you think when Cody is talking to me and the guys, I'm just freaking zoned out on my phone or just. Just kind of looking around, not listening to him.

[B]

I would say again. Same, same.

[A]

It's the same. Yeah, it's the same up the chain of command and down the chain of command. When my peers are talking, how often do you think I'm intentionally not listening to them?

[B]

It depends on which guys are in the room. Oh, yeah, Zero.

[A]

Yeah. I'm tuning you out right now. It's zero. And even when I've been around people that, man, I'm just frustrated with or I don't like or we don't get along personally, if we're a part of something, I'm listening to them because I know that's my ego getting the way of just going, man, that guy's an idiot. I don't agree with what they're saying, man. She doesn't get it. Like, that's literally my ego. And thank God I do what I do at Echelon front because I'm able to quickly remind myself of, like, hey, idiot, listen. Listen with intent. Focus. Because let's just say I truly think I'm right and they're wrong. How am I able to have a good conversation to guide them to see what the right thing is if I'm not listening to them?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the likelihood that I'm truly 100% right and they're 100% wrong is also zero. It's. It's zero. Because my. Even though my ego wants to say something else, it's 0% that I'm 100 right and they're 100% wrong. There is still a moment of truth. Their perspective and my perspective. And what I need to be doing is finding alignment. Even if I don't personally like them, if we're working together on something, man, I need to be listening and listening with intent.

[B]

Yeah. You know, so you mentioned that there is obviously a red flag if everybody is. Is not getting it right. If all of your people aren't listening or something, then that means, like, your communication is either terrible or you've got no relationships with the people that are in the room. One of those two or combo of

[A]

both, which would be the worst.

[B]

Exactly. Right. So let's. Let's go to a more specific scenario because I know the very first time that I heard about the read back and the. The moment we started to implement it, there were a couple of people on my team that I kind of had marked like I know I can't ask this person for a read back at the beginning. Right. We've got to get them into the habit of doing this. I don't want them to feel singled out. Like they're not the best in meeting situations. But I know that one on one, if I give them the information, they'll be fine. I know if we do a read back email that they'll get the email, that they're going to be great. But for whatever reason, kind of in these scenarios, like they're, they're just going to struggle. So what do you do with that employee or with that team member that is struggling? Maybe they're struggling because they, they struggle to speak in front of people. Maybe they're struggling though, because you know what, it's difficult for them to take in all of the information, to compute it, then to give it back. How do you keep that team member that's. And we'll give them benefit of the doubt, right? There's somebody who's earnestly trying. They're not on their phone and doing a bunch of stuff. But how do we keep them from being discouraged in these settings?

[A]

Well, I'm gonna give them something small. Okay, I'll give them something small. Also, I have to have empathy. And instead of getting frustrated with somebody who doesn't do a read back well or make some mistakes again, I'm going back to myself and my communication. And part of being a good leader is knowing your people. So if I have somebody that struggles with capturing information and I haven't taking the time to coach and teach and mentor them of what they should be doing during meetings in regards to listening with intent, writing things down. If I have somebody like that and they're not taking notes, I have failed as a leader to not explain to them the importance of taking notes in a meeting and in actually every conversation. That was one of the things that Seth Stone taught me when we graduated SQT and we're headed over to check into Seal Team 3 Delta Platoon together is as we're driving across the street, we stopped at the little gas station over on the ocean side where the, the commands were. And we call it a little surf Mart because there's a little mini mart gas station right there on the beach. Pretty cool. By the way, it's called the Surf Mart. And we went in there together, I think grabs like probably like a Red Bull and some, a Gatorade. And he grabbed some notebooks and when we were leaving he gave me one of the notebooks and he told me you should always have a notebook with you at all times, because there's going to be a lot of conversations that you are going to have to write down key pieces of information that you're. That you won't be able to retain. Also, every meeting you go into, you should be taking notes. So every conversation, every meeting, you need to be taking notes to write down those pieces of information that are important so you can retain it and then brief it back to them to show them that you're listening and to make sure you had everything right. Seth taught me so much, so much throughout the years, and that was a very pivotal piece of information that he taught me before I checked into Seal Team 3 Delta Platoon with him as a new guy. And we both had our notebooks. And, bro, I almost always had a notebook on me. Even when I was, like, wearing PT shorts and a T shirt, I'd be holding a notebook in my hand. Always had notebooks. Every meeting we went into, every brief. And then it got to the point where, I mean, you see me do this, where if I'm having a conversation with somebody and I don't have a notebook, I'll take notes on my phone, I'll open up the notes app, and I'll show them. I'll say, hey, I'm taking notes during this conversation. Are you good with that? You know what everybody's told me? Yeah. Cool, man. That's awesome. So if I have somebody that's not getting the information and not able to, like, retain it and repeat it back to me and they're not taking notes, that's right where I'm starting. And I'm going to take ownership and apologize and say, hey, Lucas. Hey, man. One of the things that I was taught at a young age is every meeting and every important conversation, you should be taking notes. And the reason why you should be taking notes is because there's a lot of information, and the likelihood of us remembering all of it is almost zero. And so when we're taking notes in a meeting or in an important conversation, it helps us a few ways. The first one, we can write down the key pieces of information. It also shows that person that you're listening and you respect them. And, hey, if you want somebody to listen to you, what do you think you should do when they're talking? Listen, if you want somebody to respect you, you. What should you show them first, that you respect them. And then if you're doing these things, do you think it's going to increase the trust that you have with your team? Yep. And so as you're doing these things, you're also trust. You're showing them that you trust them, that they're giving out the right information, and that you can also be trusted to listen and execute. Hey, the fact that I didn't tell you that when he first came on the team is a failure on my part. I'm really sorry. Hey, you know what? I got you a notebook. Here you go. Moving forward, bud, if I were you, I would have this notebook with you all the time. It's a tool that's only going to help you be successful. And so that's where I'm going to start. It's a small iterative step. I'm going to give them a little bit and then see what they do. And then. And then I would let them know, hey, when we get done with this meeting, I'm going to have you and a few other people brief back to me a few pieces, not the whole thing, just a few pieces that are relevant to what you are going to be doing. Because I want to make sure my communication is right. So make sure you use your notebook. And if you have any questions throughout the brief or at the end of the brief, bro, raise your hand, get my attention. You're not going to interrupt me and be rude. I want to make sure we have alignment. So then they ask questions, I ask questions, we get done. And I'll say, hey, Lucas, before you give me a read back, do you have any questions on what we put out? And you're like, nope, good to go. I'm like, cool. Hey, give me one key piece of information from that brief that is relevant to what you and your team are going to be doing. I'm just asking for one right now. Because what I want you to do is know that I'm here to support you, and I'm not trying to put you on the spot. I'm not trying to embarrass you. And anybody can give one thing. Anybody can give one thing. And so you give that one thing. I'm like, cool, good to go, Lucas. And boom. Then I move on to the next person. And then next time I do the same thing. And then as her confidence build, I'm like, hey, Lucas, gimme two. Two key pieces of information from that brief that's relevant to what you and your team are doing. Boom, boom, cool. Good to go. The other thing I have to file away is, what if I ask you to give me a read back? I say, hey, Lucas, when we get done with this brief, I'm gonna have you and Josh give me a read back. And you're like, hey, I don't want to. I'm not comfortable doing that. If that happens, my response should be, roger that. No worries, bud. Hey, Josh, Brent, are you guys good to go with giving me a read back? All right, cool. Awesome. And that's legitimately going to be my true. And my true posture is cool. No factor, bud. Like, we're good to go. And then I'm gonna go, Josh, Brett, we're good to go. Move on. But I'm gonna follow that away and it's gonna tell me a few things. And one of the things that's probably likely is that you're not comfortable speaking in front of the group. That's my. That's my first initial thought is, hey, he might not be comfortable speaking in front of the group. And then also the second thing that I'm going to do that I think is equally important is I'm going to ask myself, what's my relationship like with Lucas? Because if you and I had a really good relationship and I asked you to do something, what's the likelihood? You tell me.

[B]

No, probably pretty low.

[A]

It's pretty low. Unless it's something that you are absolutely not comfortable doing or terrified of doing and going back to knowing your people. If I really knew my people, I would already know this about you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's. So the repack is, man. It's a beautiful tool that we teach at Echelon Front that is not unique to Echelon Front. We learned it from the seal teams. It's been around for a very long time. There's nothing new under the sun. Right. These things have been around forever. And it gives me alignment, it gives me clarity with my people. It gives me an honest self assessment of my. My communication. It gives me the ability to build a little bit of confidence with my people so that they're comfortable briefing and talking in front of other people. It gives me a little insight to my people. Are they comfortable speaking in front of people? Do they have confidence? Are they detailed at taking notes? Are they able to project and make eye contact and present when they're doing these things? It gives me a lot of information and these are a lot of key pieces of information that we as leaders need to be collecting, analyzing, and applying where is needed to better support our people 100%.

[B]

So I got. I got one more on this because we've. We have talked about, you know what and one comment we. The phone thing is so important. If you're going to pull your phone out for any reason, especially if you're taking notes. What a lot of people don't know is, like, pulling back the curtain on the podcast stuff. When we have guests in studio, I typically have my phone out because I'm doing research. And we tell our guests ahead of time, hey, Lucas isn't disengaged. He's doing stuff. Because if I have my laptop out, then it definitely looks like there is an interview that's happening over here and one guy over in the corner that's, like, maybe playing chess or Pokemon on his. On his laptop. Right. Like, it's just. It's not a great look. But we have told him, hey, listen, if. If, you know, Lucas is picking up his phone, it's probably to do some research on something. And I know when. When we had Andrew Paul in studio, I was able to find a book that had, you know, featured the plane that his granddad was in, and we were able to show him that. And that was just one of those things that, as it popped up. But otherwise, if people just see me over on my phone, then it becomes a big deal. And phones are such a sign right now of disengagement that, you know, if you're going to pull your phone out for any reason, make sure that people know what it's for. Otherwise, they're just going to assume that you've lost interest in whatever's happening.

[A]

Yeah. And we have to be aware of that perspective. And we also have to push back on our ego because our ego is going to tell us, well, they should know what I'm doing. They should. Hey, our guests should know that we're using our phones and laptops to research information. Hey, there's a bunch of other podcasts out there, and they use their laptops and they're using research. And there's guys like, you know, Andy Frisella, like, they use the computer when they're doing, like, all the different things. He'll be like, hey, dj, pull that up, or, hey, dj, look at that. But, you know, it's the difference. There is Andy saying, hey, dj, look that up, or, hey, dj, pull that up, and now you know why you're on your phone. We don't do that because the dynamic of our podcast and our relationship, as soon as you and I are talking about something with the guests and the guests are saying something and you pick up your phone, I know what you're doing. You're doing research. And I shared this with you at the very beginning because I didn't know you were doing that the very first time you did that. And I remember kind of looking over going, there is no way he is on his phone messing around right now. Like, I knew that. Like, I knew that, but I was

[B]

just playing games, bro.

[A]

And I remember I kind of put my chair back, like, because I was looking at the person and I just kind of looked over and I saw you looking something up. And I was like, okay, yep, that's what he's doing. And, and then you and I talked about that and you laughed. And then that was the. And what was cool through the lens of extreme ownership, you're like, bro, I'm sorry, I should have told you that. That's what I do. And then from there, moving forward, our SOP was to tell our guests, hey, this is what I'm doing. And that first guest that you did it on, they didn't notice because they weren't looking over at you. They were like looking at the camera, speaking in the microphone, looking at me. But it was just, it was a, it was a good example of like, hey, over communicate the things that you think our common sense and that everyone's going to know. So that there is no misalignment, there is no frustration. Because at the end of the day, like, we, we want to eliminate that. And that's what the reback does. It eliminates frustration, misalignment keeps people safe. But yeah, I, I always show people my phone, I show the notes. If I'm not actually writing something down in an actual notebook, 100%, then this

[B]

leads to that last thing. You know, we, we don't want to single people out if we can help it in these kind of situations, because the readback is meant to be a. Reflective of our communication, but also it helps build confidence with our team.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Where this can kind of go awry and where we've got to remember that this isn't a test. This has been my struggle with it is when you ask somebody a question to give you a read, maybe they start to struggle. And then we kind of do the pop quiz thing. Hey, does anybody else have a, you know, does anybody else know? Does anybody else whatever. Why, why are those types of things in, in this setting? Right. Because we've talked about how this isn't a pop quiz, this isn't a test. So often when we get into those modes, we're. We're trying to make sure that people know the information. And we almost get into that sort of mode that like our teachers get in where, you know, what this kid had the wrong answer. So I'm gonna ask that kid over here if he's got the. Why can that be a bad thing to do during a read back?

[A]

Because that's your ego flaring up and you're frustrated at them, not at yourself. You are pointing and directing your frustration at that person, not at yourself. Instead of saying, hey, Lucas, I'm sorry, I wasn't clear on that. It's actually this. Just to make sure we're on the same page. Why is it this? Why is this important? Because I want to make sure we're on the same page. And man, I'm really sorry, I wasn't clear on that, buddy. Because if I just go, all right, cool. You don't know, hey, Josh, you know, and Josh knows. How does that make you feel? Are you like, man, that was awesome of JP I'm really glad he did that.

[B]

Not at all.

[A]

No. You're pissed, you're frustrated, you're embarrassed. And if I'm trying to build a relationship with you, is that making a deposit or a withdrawal?

[B]

If I do that, 100% a withdrawal.

[A]

Okay, cool. So I'm actually hurting my relationship with you and not improving it. We call those little ego flare ups. It's not. Not an outburst. It's a little, little flare up. Right? And when that happens, control it. Pause, smile, be like, hey, Lucas, I'm sorry, I wasn't clear. Here's what we need to be doing, here's why it's important. And then just push it back to

[B]

you again, 100%, man. And if you guys want to learn more about how to do the readback or debrief, which is kind of the hand in hand with the reback and making sure that your communication was clear and that things are going well and in the right direction, go check out echelonfront.com we've got muster in Tennessee coming up. Are there any tickets available for that still? Jp?

[A]

Oof. Small. About small.

[B]

Just a few. There is that. There is the FTX training, but there's also the Extreme Ownership online academy with those Wednesday afternoon calls you can be a part of or you can go to the Extreme Ownership Academy and you can look at courses on how to implement the readback, how to implement extreme ownership, how to do extreme ownership in your home. There are all kinds of amazing resources that are out there for that. Also, our friends over at first in Nutrition, they are almost always on those Wednesday afternoon calls. They have partnered with us. If you go to firstinnutrition.com jppod they're offering four free weeks of nutrition coaching for anybody who goes and uses that link as a gift to you guys for being part of the family on the JP Podcast. Also, look down here in the show notes. If you're on the nutrition train and man, you're like us. You are. You've crested the hill, as they say. You're over 40. Maybe you need a little extra boost. Click the link for Relive Health. Those guys do absolutely amazing work. Whenever you click that link, you get a physician's consultation. Um, you'll get some blood work done, you'll do the physician's consultation. And I believe they're. They're comping that part. Is that correct?

[A]

Yeah. Which is crazy.

[B]

Yeah. So you get that for free so that they can help you do an assessment of what your blood work looks like, how some of the things that they offer may benefit you, but also how you can get not just in the best shape of your life, but also to the highest point of health. Right. We're not just talking about living the longest lives that we can. We're talking about living the healthiest lives that we can for as long as we can. Yep.

[A]

Through TRT, which is testosterone replacement therapy, HRT, hormone replacement therapy through different peptides. Also they do IVs. Also they now. So they're in Flower Mound, but they also just are now operating and managing the Relive Health in North Austin area as well. Right. On which they can do stuff with people nationwide. Like I have people that they are taken care of literally all over the nation, but for like in person stuff like IVs, NAD bags, which are absolutely incredible for just overall health recovery from like a literally a cellular molecular level. The NAD bags are amazing. Yeah. So optimization. They have so many things that they offer and it's customized to who you are. That's what why I love Relive Health is. It's the most thorough blood panel I have ever received. And it gave me the ability to customize something for myself. And my wife was able to do the same thing. My brother is now as well. And I mean, so many people from Double five in our community are there because of the amazing customer service that they provide, but how they take care of you as an individual, not just putting you into a group. Because that doesn't work.

[B]

No, not at all. And those guys are the best in the game at it. Also, we've got new JP Denel podcast shirts coming down the pike. So if you are not following on the path printing, go check them out that will be where their release for that is. Little cattle co. If you haven't gotten any of the beef tallow products, make sure that you do it. The summer is coming and when it does, so is that summer sun. Get some of that after sun. Care to make sure that you don't get super crispy after you got out there. Like, I'll look like Sebastian the Crab if I don't take some of this stuff and make sure that I apply it to me after I'm out in the sun. So make sure that you do that. And then huge thanks as always to the guys over at Origin and at Jocko fuel. Use code JP Pod20 to save 20 on everything at Jocko Fuel, including the new pro series. The new pro series has protein. It's got a brand new pre workout, which has some proprietary blend system stuff that doesn't just help with pump and focus, but also helps actually with muscle growth and recovery. It's absolutely amazing stuff. And then the muscle drive. So many of you guys who are listeners and girls who are listeners to this podcast, y' all are getting ready for competition season. It is about the time when the big jiu Jitsu comps are getting ready to happen, when the big bodybuilding and powerlifting and strongman competitions are all coming up in the summer and in the fall, you're cutting weight and you've got to find a way to protect your muscle. Check out the muscle drive. That is absolutely 100% what it's designed to do is to help you protect your muscle mass while you're trying to lean out and become the best version of yourself for those competitions. So use code JP Pod20save 20%. Go check out all of that stuff over there. And jp, you got any final thoughts to wrap us up?

[A]

Man, man, there's so many things as I was thinking about this episode and just the amazing companies that we work with and you know, how our listeners, when they support them, it supports a podcast. I just had an awesome call with Jackson from Jockofield earlier today, and, man, I love that kid's passion. Like his passion for life, for Jesus, for his marriage, his growing family, for. For Jiu Jitsu, for lifting, for Jocko Fuel is just incredible. It's so effect. It's so infectious. That just. It's amazing. You know, I was driving with my brother Corey, and we were talking to Jackson and we got off the phone and my brother's like, bro, he's awesome. His energy is awesome. He's on it. And we were talking about the Pro series and how incredible it is. And man, that new series is incredible. And I think about that and the reason why I'm bringing it up is Jocko Fuel has incredible products, but they also live and believe and implement the principles that we teach at Echelon Front. And one of those is innovate and adapt. Not getting complacent. And so as I close this up, that's kind of what I want to think about, is not getting complacent with just what you've been doing and how you've been doing things. Find ways to make your communication better, find ways to make your relationship better, find ways to improve your health and your finances and all these things. Do not get complacent. You have to go to war with that complacency because there is a better way. You can be stronger in your faith. You can have a better marriage, you can be a better parent, you can be a better business partner, you can be a better employee, you can be a better leader if you choose to put in the time, make tweaks, do honest self assessment and keep pushing forward, forward. But also you're not doing it alone. You have to trust the people around you. You have to have a group of people around you that are making you better, that are going to hold you accountable because of your accountability to them. And that's the key to success, is doing all those things every single day and being honest with yourself. Because the lie of the devil is what's rooted in complacency is you're good to go. You don't need to do more. You can rest. No, we need to be. We need to be hungry. We need to be constantly wanting to make ourselves better versions of who we are, but also realizing you don't have to do it alone. You do not have to do it alone. Show humility, ask for help, ask for feedback, and then receive it with humility and grace and make the changes needed and go implement it and put in the work. So I hope this episode has been a reminder to go do the work that's needed, to put in the effort to build your legacy and to never settle. This has been the JP Donnell podcast, episode 133.