Prioritize and Execute | The 3rd Law of Combat | JP Dinnell Podcast 111

Summary

JP Dinnell Podcast 111 – "Prioritize and Execute | The 3rd Law of Combat"

Release Date: November 7, 2025
Hosts: JP Dinnell & Lucas Pinckard

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Overview

In this episode, JP Dinnell—a decorated former Navy SEAL and Director of Experiential Leadership Training at Echelon Front—joins co-host Lucas Pinckard to dive deep into "Prioritize and Execute," the third law of combat leadership. Through war stories, leadership lessons, candid personal reflections, and actionable strategies, the duo break down how detachment, clear prioritization, and calm execution are critical to success in any challenging environment—on the battlefield, in business, and within the family.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Milestone Birthdays, Reflection, and Comparison

Timestamps: 00:53–04:27

• Lucas shares his perspective on turning 40: Although society creates expectations for change and self-evaluation at milestone ages, real growth often happens unexpectedly and outside those projections.
• The importance of gratitude and savoring relationships, experiences, and personal development over comparing oneself to others’ external measures of success.
• Notable Quote:

  “Comparison is the ultimate thief of joy. …Is it good to have healthy comparison? Yeah, for sure—absolutely. But there needs to be a balance.” — JP Dinnell (03:35)

2. Shifting Priorities and Embracing Change

Timestamps: 04:27–05:56

• JP: Priorities, friendships, and business ideas inevitably shift. Acceptance and adaptability enable growth; rigidity causes stagnation and stress.
• Anchoring in consistent fundamentals, but being okay when life doesn’t go as planned.

3. Detachment as a Leadership Superpower

Timestamps: 05:56–10:01

• Teaching detachment reduces panic:
  • “Stop, relax, look around, gather information, analyze that information, and then make a decision.”
• Emotional decisions usually lead to poor outcomes—leaders must avoid letting emotion dictate words and actions.
• Story: JP recalls advice from Jocko Willink after losing his temper as an instructor:

  “Losing your temper is a sign of weakness, because when you lose your temper… you’re not in control.”
  — JP Dinnell recalling Jocko’s feedback (07:04)

• Importance of right message & right delivery; detachment helps leaders maintain composure and avoid undermining their own authority.

4. Apology, Ownership, and Leadership Capital

Timestamps: 10:01–13:13

• JP describes an emotional moment apologizing to a SEAL team after yelling at them—a powerful example of extreme ownership and repairing relationships.

  “I was frustrated… I should not have been yelling at you guys. You guys are my guys… Man, I’m sorry. I love you guys.”
  — JP Dinnell (11:04)

• Redemption and maintaining trust rely on being honest about mistakes and showing respect.

5. Righteous Anger vs. Losing Your Temper

Timestamps: 13:13–14:27

• Discernment between righteous anger and sinful action; losing your temper is not righteous anger.
• Lucas:

  “The word is really clear: in your anger, do not sin.” (13:23)

6. Culture, Criticism, and Thick Skin in Team Settings

Timestamps: 14:27–18:18

• Military/Team culture often expects thick skin and the ability to handle criticism and detachment from overt emotion.
• Leaders must train others to absorb feedback and understand priorities, while resisting the temptation to abuse authority (i.e., yelling does not equate to winning).

7. Leadership, Communication, and Losing the Mark

Timestamps: 18:18–21:00

• Yelling derails alignment. When leaders communicate with frustration, team members may focus on redeeming the relationship instead of the message.
• Effective leadership requires simple, clear, and respectful communication.

8. Leadership in the Family – Controlled Stress for Kids

Timestamps: 21:00–24:00

• Parents must sometimes apply controlled stress to help kids grow; sheltering them from all adversity stunts development.

• Knowing each child’s response to feedback and stress is crucial.

  “If I just do everything for them and give them an easy life, I’ve failed them.”
  — JP Dinnell (21:33)

9. Combat Simulations & Debriefing: Lessons from the SEAL Teams

Timestamps: 24:00–27:28

• “Prioritize and Execute” in a combat context:
  • Maintaining discipline of fields of fire, SOPs (standard operating procedures), and constant after-action debriefs to capture and pass on lessons—“SOPs written in blood.”
• JP:

  “Those debriefs facilitate and expedite growth…one team, one fight.” (26:11)

10. On Pain, Accountability, and Growth in Leadership

Timestamps: 27:28–29:22

• Allowing struggle and the right kind of pain is vital to growth, whether for kids or employees.
• Over-involvement and coddling prevent real development; accountability and support must be balanced with hands-off space.
• Lucas: Uses the butterfly analogy—helping too much can cripple later independence.

11. Finding the "Sweet Spot" — Let Them Ride the Struggle Bus

Timestamps: 32:45–36:13

• There’s no perfect balance; the “sweet spot” is closer to hands-off, letting people figure it out through struggle and the pain of failure (within bounds of safety).
• JP shares stories from childhood: doing things the hard way, learning lessons, and earning pride through effort.

12. Detachment, Emotional Blindness, and Decentralized Command

Timestamps: 38:06–41:02

• “Detaching from everything” (physically/emotionally) allows leaders to objectively see flaws in plans and accept feedback.

• Leaders who are too connected to ‘their’ plan become adversarial and miss opportunities for improvement.

  “If you’re emotionally connected to it, it’s blinding.”
  — Lucas Pinckard (39:07)

13. Cover & Move: When Your Priority Isn’t THE Priority

Timestamps: 39:51–41:02

• True teamwork means sometimes shelving your own priorities to help another team succeed if their objective is critical to the broader mission.
• Recognizing and acting on organizational priorities—even if they conflict with personal ones—is maturity in leadership.

14. Training in Controlled Environments & Real Accountability

Timestamps: 41:46–44:56

• Real training provides controlled environments for failure, learning, and internalizing “Prioritize and Execute.”
• Key Tip: Don’t discount training as a waste of time; make it real, actionable, and followed-through.

15. Buy-in, Ownership, and Driving Lessons Home

Timestamps: 44:56–48:18

• Effective consultants and leaders drive ownership back to the client/team.

• Training must produce value and actionable takeaways; the goal is always for others to sustain the lessons on their own.

  “Your number one priority leaving this training is driving these things into the organization.”
  — JP Dinnell (46:55)

16. Prioritizing & Executing Big Visions in Business and at Home

Timestamps: 48:40–55:54

• Building alignment in the family and organization is key for big visions or pivots.

• Honest self-assessment: What are you and your team (or family) truly capable of?

• Take small, iterative steps—avoid overcommitting or making giant mistakes.

• Reach out to those with experience, but carefully filter advice; doubters are plentiful.

  “If it’s something for your family, it should be something you and your wife have alignment on. And even your kids.”
  — JP Dinnell (49:21)

• Amanda’s unwavering support for JP’s workload and absences—thanks to shared vision and alignment—illustrates the power of this principle.

  “Zero—zero times has Amanda ever complained about me leaving. Zero, bro, in nine years.”
  — JP Dinnell (51:10)

17. Closing Thoughts: Detachment, Do the Work, Build Your Legacy

Timestamps: 61:59–end

• Chaos is inevitable; teach yourself to detach from emotions to think logically.
• Collect information and facts before making decisions—detachment is a superpower.

  “Detachment is a superpower. …Go do the work that is needed, put in the effort to build your legacy, and never settle.”
  — JP Dinnell (63:54)

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “Comparison is the ultimate thief of joy. … Is it good to have healthy comparison? Yeah, for sure—absolutely. But there needs to be a balance.”
  — JP Dinnell, (03:35)
• “Losing your temper is a sign of weakness, because when you lose your temper… you’re not in control.”
  — JP Dinnell recalling Jocko Willink’s leadership, (07:04)
• “If I just do everything for them and give them an easy life, I’ve failed them.”
  — JP Dinnell, (21:33)
• “If you’re emotionally connected to it, it’s blinding.”
  — Lucas Pinckard, (39:07)
• “Zero—zero times has Amanda ever complained about me leaving. Zero, bro, in nine years.”
  — JP Dinnell, (51:10)
• “Detachment is a superpower. …Go do the work that is needed, put in the effort to build your legacy, and never settle.”
  — JP Dinnell, (63:54)

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Important Segment Timestamps

• Introduction, Reflections on Turning 40 — 00:01–04:27
• Detachment & Leadership Stories from the SEAL Teams — 05:56–13:13
• Parenting, Controlled Stress, and Growth — 21:00–24:00
• Combat Simulations, Debriefs, and SOPs — 24:00–27:28
• Hands-Off Leadership and “Riding the Struggle Bus” — 32:45–36:13
• Training & Ownership in Organizations — 41:46–48:18
• Building and Aligning Vision at Home and Work — 48:40–55:54
• Final Thoughts on Legacy and Detachment — 61:59–end

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Memorable Moments

• JP’s emotional story about apologizing to his SEAL team after yelling at them, modeling humility and ownership (10:01–13:13).
• The butterfly analogy for struggle—helping too much can cripple growth (29:23).
• Amanda Dinnell’s nine-year perfect record of support, a testament to aligned vision and ownership in marriage (51:10).
• Multifaceted insights on detachment—how not taking things personally can unlock calm, effective leadership.

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Style & Tone

Authentic, direct, and woven with real-life stories. JP’s military precision and Lucas’s relatability as a family man and pastor create a blend of actionable insight, humility, and camaraderie.

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Recommendations

For Listeners:

• Seek ways to detach in high-stress moments; make decisions with logic, not emotion.
• Regularly reflect on your true priorities, and give yourself (and others) room for growth amidst setbacks or “struggle.”
• In both family and business, ensure all key players are aligned before launching major initiatives.
• Don’t be afraid of pain or struggle—both are necessary for meaningful development.

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This summary is designed to equip you with the substance, lessons, and spirit of the episode—ready to apply the "Prioritize and Execute" law of combat in your own sphere of leadership!

Transcript

[JP Donnell]

Good morning. This is the JP Donnell podcast, episode 111. I am JP to now. And as always, I have Lucas with me. What's up, buddy?

[Lucas Pinkert]

Good evening.

[JP Donnell]

Good afternoon. Good morning.

[Lucas Pinkert]

It's. This is the first time we've been back in studio since you got your bionic arm.

[JP Donnell]

It's been a while. Yeah.

[Lucas Pinkert]

How are you feeling?

[JP Donnell]

I'm good, man. Well, the bionic arm comes tomorrow.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Oh, yeah.

[JP Donnell]

You know, I got the soft cast.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah. Well, it looks amazing.

[JP Donnell]

Yeah, it's a soft, hard cast. And when the doctor said that, I was like, I'm not gonna argue with him.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah.

[JP Donnell]

That's because it's kind of hard to have both of those.

[Lucas Pinkert]

But medicine is a contradictory practice.

[JP Donnell]

However, hard right here. Soft right here.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yep.

[JP Donnell]

So technically, he's not wrong. I know.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah.

[JP Donnell]

But I remember him saying that to me.

[Lucas Pinkert]

It looks like a great big beefy arm you got there. Like Trogdor the Burninator. I love it.

[JP Donnell]

That's who I was thinking about, too.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah, no doubt.

[JP Donnell]

I don't even know how to spell that to look it up.

[Lucas Pinkert]

I'll show you during the break.

[JP Donnell]

Yeah. Awesome. How was the week been?

[Lucas Pinkert]

It's. It's been good. Turned 40 on Monday.

[JP Donnell]

I know.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah. So just feeling decrepit and. Actually, you know what? I. I meant to post about this today, and I've. I've had the same question over and over from people. Is, like, you turned 40, how you feeling? Does it feel? Do you feel different? And the truth is, no, I don't. There is something, though, about, like, hitting those milestone birthdays that does from. From, like, a social standpoint, like, there is kind of this pressure to feel different, but there is a. A certain amount of, like, self evaluation because the way that people do goal setting is like, where do you want to be in five years? Where do you want to be in 10 years? And so there are. There are some of those things I will have to say. Like, at 40, I am so surprised at where I am because there have been so many things that I have at 40 that I didn't think I was going to have. But if you'd asked me at 20 where I would be at 40, where I'm at is so completely different because of what's happened in the last 20 years, you know, primarily with, you know, changes in career and life things. But really, like, the best part of my life has happened outside of, like, when I accepted Christ at 4. All of the best things in my life have happened in the last five and a half years.

[JP Donnell]

Yeah.

[Lucas Pinkert]

You know, Mary and Kirsten, the birth of our kids is starting our family together. The way that, you know, our church has grown together. And seeing that, the friendships that I've made in the last, you know, five and a half years, doing stuff with Jesus and Jiu Jitsu, this podcast, all of those kinds of things, they've really happened in this short window leading up to 40. And so I really just have this deep conviction to. To remind people that, you know, the. It's not about, like, looking back or comparing where you're at with other people, because I've got friends that I grew up with that are incredibly more successful than I am in all of the areas that we thought we were going to be successful at in our twenties. Right? Whether it was music or business or commodity trading or any of those things that we talked about that we were going to be like, I've got some friends who are giants in those worlds. I am so much more satisfied with where I'm at at this point in my life than I would have dreamed that I could have been, you know, in. In my 20s. And so for me, like, like, that was the thing. It wasn't about reflecting on the woulda, shoulda, coulda's. It was more of the just being so grateful for the things that I've been given and realizing, hey, you know what, the last five years have actually been the most important in my life. And it's not the stuff that happened when I was 19 or 20.

[JP Donnell]

That's awesome.

[Lucas Pinkert]

It's cool.

[JP Donnell]

It's awesome that you're able to see that and have that honest evaluation and reflection and. Yeah, I know we've mentioned it before. Comparison is the ultimate thief of joy 100. And is it good for. To have healthy comparison? Yeah, yeah, for sure, absolutely. But there needs to be a balance on that, right? And I think that's cool that you're able to look at that way. You know, I remember when I turned 40, same thing, like, oh, you know, you're 40. Novel on my. Yeah, I'm excited. Wait, hold on. You're not stressed out that you're 40? No, I'm not. I'm not at all. You know, and it's now, like, you know, on the sides of the head, like, as my hair grows out a little bit, like, there's gray. Yeah, there's gray in my hair. I don't care. Like, it doesn't bother me.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Like, right.

[JP Donnell]

You know, if I don't shave, good amount of gray in my beer. I'm 42. I've you know, lived a really good life.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Wisdom.

[JP Donnell]

Well, maybe, but, you know, I just. I never, you know, people freak out about getting older, and for me, I've never really felt that way. Yeah. And especially as I've gotten older and now what I do at Echelon Front and just, you know, with us doing this podcast and, you know, just different people coming into my lives, you know, the last couple years, and friendships getting stronger and new friendships and other friendships going away and stuff like that. Like, you recognize, like, all right, hey, this is just part of life.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah, man.

[JP Donnell]

And I'm gonna make the most of it. And you really come to find out, like, you know, what's important in your life, what's not important, what are actual priorities in your life, and. And understand, like, priorities shift. You know, friendships shift, you know, business ideas shift. Like, things are gonna shift in your life. And, you know, now, I'm not saying that you just abandon everything and you continuously just revolve through friends and ideas and whatnot. Some things need to be fundamentals, truths, and, you know, things are consistent in your life, but you also have to understand, like, hey, it's okay for things to not be the way you thought they were going to be, and it's okay to shift priorities and focuses in life, because I think when people don't do that, that's when they get stuck. They don't grow, they don't evolve, and that's when people get stressed out. You know, one of the things that we teach at Echelon Front when we're talking about prioritize and execute, is when you can teach people the power of detachment and teach people why detachment is a superpower and how to do it, and that detaching is a skill that. And that the law of combat that we teach, prioritize, and execute is very, very important for everybody, personally and professionally. It reduces panic. It reduces panic because if I can teach myself and the people around me, but especially myself first, how to actually stop, relax, look around, gather information, analyze that information, and then make a decision, it reduces panic. Because I. I know the decisions I'm making are based off of information and facts and data. It's not an emotional decision. We've all made emotional decisions. And I know most people, when they make emotional decisions, they tend not to be the best decisions. Like, losing your temper, that's an emotional decision.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Never had have I ever lost my temper and felt like that was good.

[JP Donnell]

Yeah, man, that was awesome. Like, not once. And then understand that, like, really, really.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Proud of all the things that came out of that.

[JP Donnell]

Yeah. And losing your temper is a sign of weakness, because when you lose your temper, it means that you were not in control of your emotions, of your words, of your actions. And it means that you allowed the situation and. Or somebody else or something else to control how you reacted. So you're not in control. That's a. That's a sign of weakness. I remember when Jocko told me that when I was at Tradett, and, you know, he was just. We had done a run with these guys in the kill house. Kill house is a. What we call the buildings that we do CQC in close quarters combat. And these guys were going through the runs and, you know, made some mistakes. And I, as an instructor, was just like, no, I was a role I was playing because you have different roles as instructors. And I was playing, like, the mean, bad instructor to get the point and catch their attention and have a little bit of bad cop, good cop going on. But I was like. Like losing it, like, yelling at these guys. And I was yelling at them because I didn't like them. I was yelling at them because I love them. Yeah. And I knew they were making these mistakes that could get themselves or teammates killed overseas. Right message, wrong delivery.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yep.

[JP Donnell]

Right message, wrong delivery. And again, that's why detachment is a superpower, because I wasn't in control of my emotions. Saying the right thing, but delivering it the wrong way, which we all know that can be received. Most of the time, it's actually received the wrong way. There's a few people that can read through that and be like, all right, I hear what he's saying. Yeah, he's right. Okay. Yeah. You know, I don't like the way he's talking to me right now, but we're good with that. That's. That's a skill set. To be able to do that.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah. To be able to p. The. You know, the. The criticism out of all of the extra hot air that was there.

[JP Donnell]

It doesn't happen often.

[Lucas Pinkert]

No.

[JP Donnell]

And so, you know, I'm going off on the guys. We get done with the debrief. Jocko comes over. He's like, hey, I have a question about something real quick on, you know, on the run, I'm like, yeah. So he pulls me aside. He's like, hey, bro, how many times did I ever yell and scream at you like that? And I was just like, dang it. He goes, I understand what you're saying. I understand your passion, and I know that you care about these guys and that you love these Guys. And as he's saying these things, he saw that I was getting like teary eyed. Like not because I was like in trouble, but because I'm so, I was so passionate about it. And this was also the task unit I was supposed to be in. That was my platoon that I should have been in, but I got pulled over to trade at. So Seth is a task unit commander of these guys going through training.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah, yeah. There's a lot of emotions going.

[JP Donnell]

My best friend and roommate Derek Benson is in that platoon and other guys that I won't mention because they're still in that I've talked to you about. You know, my buddy, his nickname is Man Bear Pig.

[Lucas Pinkert]

It's a big man.

[JP Donnell]

Yeah. Still holds a record out of college for a 505 power clean. Yeah. Impressive human.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah.

[JP Donnell]

I've seen him not, I've seen him knock somebody out with a Muay Thai leg kick because of the, just trauma.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah. Just the sheer force.

[JP Donnell]

Yeah. Yeah. So like, these are my guys, right? And Jocko is explaining to me, you know, I'm getting teary eyed, I'm getting emotional thinking about how upset I was that I wasn't in that platoon and that as I'm watching these guys make these mistakes, like, I'm like, man, you're gonna like, I know what bad can come from this. And Jocko being a great leader is just redirected me. He's like, hey, bud, like, I understand what you're saying. I, I, I get what you're feeling like. And dude, he could see like the emotion in me and just like I'm tearing up, you know? And he was just like, you, you don't like, these are your teammates, bro. And that's what he said. He goes, these are your teammates, bro. You don't need to talk to them like that.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah.

[JP Donnell]

And I was like, yes, sir. And I remember thinking about it and I just meant I was embarrassed, you know, And I'm like kind of getting emotional sharing that story right now because I remember like how I felt and how like ashamed I felt because while my intentions were right and pure, I delivered at the completely wrong way, which could shut guys down to any actual positive feedback and instruction I could give them. Yeah. So I think we had like one or two more runs after that maybe, and we broke for lunch and I went up to the house that these guys were staying at at the facility. They're all cooking lunch. And like, I was just like, hey guys. And like, I like brought in the guys and I was like, man, I'M sorry, man. I love you guys. I'm sorry. I was like, I'm frustrated. I'm not with you guys. I'm frustrated that, like, I'm not in this platoon, and I'm frustrated that I'm at trade it. Like, I don't want to be a trade it. I want to be in a platoon. And I just. I should not have been yelling at you guys. You guys are my guys. You're my bros. You're my teammates. And I just. Man, I'm sorry. I love you guys. And, like, every single one of the guys is like, bro, we're good. And, like, they. Literally every guy was like, bro, we love you, and gave me hugs, you know? And luckily, I had really good relationships with all these guys, and I had some leadership capital built up with these guys to where they knew. They knew my heart. You know, it was. I wasn't just yelling just because I was an instructor and I could. Like, they saw it, but, you know, I mean, I. I don't think I've ever really shared that story, but, you know, it was just a moment for me to recognize. Like, man, when I lose my temper, it is an absolute sign of weakness. You can't justify losing your temper. Like, you know, at least I haven't been on fire. You know, there's some people, like, I remember somebody who was, like, all mad one time, and I was talking to them. They're like, yeah, well. And they compared to, like, things in the Old Testament, and I was like, ah, okay. I didn't understand the connection. And also, it wasn't the time for me to, like, really challenge it and dive into it. And I was just like, okay. I. I don't. Okay, cool. Yeah. You know, again, like, I'm not gonna argue with you. I'm not trying to. I wasn't trying to argue with my buddy.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Right.

[JP Donnell]

I think where he's going was just like, you know, righteous anger and. And stuff like that.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah. But even. Even then, man, like, the. The.

[JP Donnell]

But losing your temper is not righteous anger.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah, the word is really clear. Like, in your anger, do not sin. And. And that's a. Yeah. You can be righteously angry about something and still do the wrong thing.

[JP Donnell]

I can be righteously angry about somebody molesting a kid, but if I go kill them and I murder them, that's a sin, correct?

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yes.

[JP Donnell]

Okay, cool.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah.

[JP Donnell]

Just want to make sure I don't have the green light. Right?

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah.

[JP Donnell]

Because if so.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah. Right.

[JP Donnell]

You harm kids, I'm hunting you.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah. And. But that's the, that's the thing where all of these things come into line. You know, thinking about this, that with. Within the world of the ncc, right? Like, we're not going into places where being yelled at is the norm for people who have never served. Like the idea of boot camp that we have in our mind is the 4am class at LA Fitness. That's boot camp for us, right? Like some chick with a microphone that's yelling at us that we're weak and we're doing girly push ups. Like, that's dad's boot camp. Like, I went to boot camp. Like, no, you didn't. I think you did push ups in a parking lot.

[JP Donnell]

I was in Nashville yesterday. Flew home the night before. I was at the hotel and I went for a little walk. Yeah. And I walked by a gym. I'm not gonna name the gym, but they had a thing where it says sign up for Hell Week 39amonth.

[Lucas Pinkert]

And I was like, yeah, there you go. Right. But that's what, what we've done is we've taken the, the idea of what you guys went through and we've changed it. We've romanticized it a little bit and we've tailored it to fit our, our suburban. Yeah, our suburban lifestyles. But the. We wouldn't put ourselves in a place where we're subjected to that knowingly and willfully on a regular basis.

[JP Donnell]

Most people wouldn't. There are some trades where unfortunately that's still.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Oh, for sure. Yeah.

[JP Donnell]

Now my dad growing up in the construction trade, like, bro, he got, you know, guys would yell fist fight on job site.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Like it's, it's still pretty common in like the mechanic trades and things like that.

[JP Donnell]

Linemen as well. Well, I would say linemen, it's been shifting a lot because they're recognizing like, hey, that does nothing good for safety and culture. Because if you're yelling at somebody and they're nervous, nervous people make stupid decisions and they make mistakes and they're in a line where that's life and death. So I think that's shifted a lot from the lineman world. But it's still gas. Gas and electric lineman, bro. Their. Their industry is unreal. Yeah, there's very tough, very hard. You talk about a thankless job. Yeah, you talk about that. Like, anyways, I know we're kind of going, yeah, we're going down the right path. We're just deviating a little bit.

[Lucas Pinkert]

And that's one that like, not only is the safety of the crew in there, but like, if they do something wrong, other people die.

[JP Donnell]

Yeah, right.

[Lucas Pinkert]

There's. There's a lot at stake in, in those professions. But the reason I kind of frame it that way is because when, if I were to lose my temper on, on my kid or if I'm to. To lose my temper, I fly off the handle at somebody. The likelihood that someone in a SEAL team is able to pick the good stuff out of all the extra noise, Much higher. Much higher. Right.

[JP Donnell]

Because, you know, that's just also part of it.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah.

[JP Donnell]

And they tell you as when you're going through buds and sqt, they talk about all the time. Part of my in brief. You know, I know we've mentioned Pepper a few times ago. A few times he was a part of that. My in brief with the leadership just sitting there scaring the living heck out of ages, staring at me. This guy hates me. But no, Pepper, he loved me. Still does. I love him. I always loved him, man. I always looked up to him. But he was an intimidating team guy, bro. I'm not gonna lie. Yeah.

[Lucas Pinkert]

His reputation is built on doing some wild stuff. Oh, yeah?

[JP Donnell]

Yeah. But he straight up told me, he was like, hey, you better have thick skin.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah.

[JP Donnell]

You're gonna get yelled at. You're probably gonna get screamed at. You're gonna get your butt whooped physically by us. You better have thick skin. And if something bothers you, you better not let us know because it's gonna get real bad.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah.

[JP Donnell]

And I thought that was cool because, you know, you had the leadership and then you had the unofficial leadership, which was Pepper. You know, he wasn't in a leadership position in our platoon, but I mean, he was, he was the guy. And that's good leadership. Teaching your people, hey, you need to be able to take criticism, you need to have thick skin, but you also need to be able to detach from your emotions. He didn't tell me to detach from my emotions, but what was he telling me? Detach from your emotions? Yeah, don't get your feelings hurt. Don't take it too serious. You know, we work hard, we party hard. That was another thing he told me, hey, we work hard, we party hard, but we work hard first. And so it's understanding. Like, hey, here's the priorities of you being a new guy on the SEAL team. You're going to work your butt off. You need to have thick skin. You need to be open minded, you need to listen. You need to listen more than you speak, but you also need to speak up. So it was like all these, like, dichotomies that I'm getting thrown at, but, you know, rooted back to prioritize and execute. Understand the priorities that you have in your life. And, you know, circling back to what we first started talking about was the whole losing your temper thing. As a leader, you need to be able to recognize like, hey, what does winning look like? Okay. Having alignment with your people, which means that we have to communicate in a manner that's effective, efficient, effective, simple, clear, concise. Like, that's what winning looks like. Yeah. So yelling at your people, losing your temper is not what. When it looks like.

[Lucas Pinkert]

No.

[JP Donnell]

And when you look at it from prioritize and execute, you are failing to miss the. You're failing to miss the mark on understanding. Like, what are the priorities? The priorities are alignment with my people and understanding so we can understand what I need to go out and execute. What decisions do I need to make that's going to have the greatest impact on the mission at this time to help the overall mission. And guess what? As a leader, that means that I talk to my people with respect. Yeah.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Because as soon as you start yelling, and this happens all across the board, and I'm sure it happens in the military as well, but particularly in the civilian sector, is when somebody starts to yell, the mind shifts into this person doesn't like me. And then if it's a person that you have respect for or a person that you want to impress for one reason or another, now that shift becomes, what do I need to do to fix this? How do I repair this relationship? What do I need to do to get my boss to like me or why my boss doesn't like me? And those all move in varying degrees away from getting alignment. So just by sheer virtue of the tone and the presence or the anger, which you begin to talk about something, you're already moving all of the people under your leadership. I say all the people, a portion of the people under your leadership, you're moving them away from the mark from the beginning because now they're not focused on what you're talking about. Now they're taking this as a, this person doesn't like me. And now you've got to make that shift back into the, this isn't because I don't like you. This is because of, you know, X and getting back to solving X. And who knows how long that one instance is going to last as far as trying to now regain the relationship capital that you need to have in order that you can have the conversation.

[JP Donnell]

Yeah.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Because if they are thinking this is a he doesn't like me thing, then you never actually get back to the point of what the conversation was.

[JP Donnell]

Yeah.

[Lucas Pinkert]

At least nowhere quick.

[JP Donnell]

Yeah. And it's something that parents, like, we need to also think about and be aware of as well, you know, and that's one of the things, like, you know, Amanda's done a good job over the years when I'm getting on to Aiden and I'm adding stress to Aiden, and it's controlled and calculated. Like I have. There's a reason why I'm doing these things. But she's, you know, given me feedback over the years of, like, hey, you know, when you do this or say this or go down this route, like, he starts to shut down. And she was valid and understanding. You know, that's part of leadership, is knowing your people.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah.

[JP Donnell]

Like, you want to push them and stretch their abilities and increase their capabilities. And as a father, it's part of my responsibility to add controlled stress to their life, to help them learn how to think and to grow. If I just do everything for them and give them an easy life, I've failed them. I've completely failed my kids. Like, you need to let them struggle. You need to let them brush up against the guardrails of failure so that they can actually understand and learn how to do these things.

[Lucas Pinkert]

It's tough to do.

[JP Donnell]

And it's. Oh, man, it's so hard to do. It is so freaking hard to do. But it's also an obligation and a duty that we have. And, you know, and so obviously, when I'm having conversations with Aiden, I never want him to shut down. Yeah. You know, and as I'm navigating this relationship with Hayden, like, it's. It's different. Right. It's completely different than with Cora and Nola and. And Aiden, because, like, these things have already been established. And it's like. And it's also like, the thing I'm trying to balance. It's like, man, I'm. I'm now just now in the picture, you know, the last, you know, 15 years now he's 16 now. But, like, you know, previous to January when, you know, we actually linked up in February, January when we got reconnected, February, when we linked up, it was just him and his mom and his grandparents, obviously, and aunts and uncles, but it was just him and his mom and his grandparents, and they did a phenomenal job raising an awesome young man. You know, I tell her that often, like, hey, dude, you did a great job raising Hayden. And so I'm having to navigate the balance of, like, okay, as a father, I know there's things that I need to do to help my kids, but understand, like, hey, Justine's been doing a great job raising Hayden, and it's just like, okay, like, how do I. How do I do that properly without overstepping? And it's just something I have to think about, like, okay, hey, what's. What's the end state? What am I trying to. To accomplish? You know? And, you know, I. I think it goes back to, like, what does winning look like? Just having that just mindset of, like, hey, what's winning look like? What's winning look like? That means, what's the priority at hand? What am I trying to accomplish? You know, I know we've talked about this briefly, but in the SEAL teams, like, it was a big focus of prioritizing. Execute. When guys are running missions and operations, like, if you and I are patrolling down the streets and, you know, we get in a massive gunfight and we all fall into our field to fire. Right? That's prioritizing. Execute. It doesn't matter if the attack comes from the right. If my field of fire is to the left, I initially will fall to my field of fire to the left to scan and look around to make sure that we're also not getting attacked from the left. You know, there might be an initial ambush type of attack on the right. And if everybody turned all their guns to the right at the same time because an explosion went off, or there's. So there's, like, one or two people over there, then you could have, like, a whole squad on your left stand up and then freaking mow you down. I mean, that's a classic ambush that people would do. And so we'd have to teach guys, hey, your field to fire, absolutely critical. Here's why. And then you run training, you put them in situations where they're gonna fail. And that's why we debrief everything in the SEAL teams. Yeah. Hey, why didn't you fall in your field of fire? Okay. Oh, an explosion went off to the right, and there's an enemy fighter over there. Okay, cool. Well, because you guys all turn to the right, and nobody's looking to the left. You guys got mowed down by 12 guys that were hiding over here to the left. There's one bad person over to the right, but there's 12 over to the left. Okay, cool. So that happens in training. Controlled in situation environment. You add a little bit of pain so that they have to, like, work through that problem and Pain teaches lessons. You know, punishment is a, is a valid tool for teaching now in corporate America that punishment, that pain can be something different, can be administrative task or something else. It's not going to be like Downman Buddy carries like in the SEAL team, but an understanding like, hey, that's, hey, there's a reason why we have SOPs. We have standard operating procedures for a reason. Now can we deviate from them? Yes, at times. But we don't deviate from them all the time. Because these SOPs are in place, because our SOPs are in the SEAL team were written in blood. We do things a certain way and we do things, and we don't do things a certain way because people have been injured or killed. And we talk through it. We share those stories, we share those lessons in training before they go out, when you're teaching them, while you're teaching them, and then in debriefs as well. And those debriefs facilitate and expedite growth. You know, that's why on the SEAL teams, we would talk about everything like, hey, what worked? What didn't work, what do we need to shift? What needs to be adjusted? And also what lessons did we capture so that we can pass on to another task unit? So if my task unit's going through training and we realize, like, okay, hey, if, you know, we, if we have the gear set up this way, it. It's safer, it's more efficient, more effective, and your task unit is coming through the training in two months. Guess what? I'm giving you that information now. I'm not going to say, hey, on this very first scenario at this thing, this is what they're going to do. No, I'm going to let you run through that training and experience that. But if I know, like, hey, if you guys, hey, if you change up your gear and, you know, if you carry, you know, your magazines this way and you, you know, organize your gear this way, like, hey, you'll be faster this way you'll be more efficient, more. And hey, also, it limits the safety risk of this happening. I'm passing that on 100% because I want you to be safe. I want you to be efficient, effective going through that training, and I want you to do very, very well. Because in the SEAL teams, it's one team, one fight. Yeah. Because, okay, you might be in another task unit, but there's an. There's a possibility that we might deploy overseas together. And why would I not want you operating at your best?

[Lucas Pinkert]

One of the things I think is interesting that you brought up is how pain produces growth. And there. There's so much training, I think, around taking care of people and taking care of your team and making sure that they have what they need. And all these kinds of things that we've. We've moved away from certain types of accountability now. We've also talked about how good leadership changes the game so that, you know, something like putting somebody on a performance improvement plan or those kind of things, like, those now become lesser parts of the program. Because when leadership is. Is the. The pinnacle of what you're focusing on, then a lot of these other things fall in line, right? If you're communicating well with your team, if you're prioritizing, like, people maintain alignment, you're setting standards and all those kind of things. So. But there. There are areas of struggle. You know, we. We mentioned with the kids. Like, Kirsten is really good about allowing our kids to physically struggle. And I'm not.

[JP Donnell]

Right?

[Lucas Pinkert]

Like, if they're gonna climb up on top of something and I see that they're struggling, like, I want to give them a hand, right? I want to give them a little bit of a boost, you know, when they're. When they're climbing the rock wall at the playground, right? And I see that they're slipping. The part of dad that wants to keep them safe wants to help them find the foothold or wants to move their foot into the same spot. Like, I want them to struggle. I still want them to have to use their muscles and pull up and those kinds of things, but I don't want to pay the copay whenever they slide down that thing and they, you know, their chin busts on a couple of handholds. When I'm like, I could have prevented that pain from happening.

[JP Donnell]

Yeah.

[Lucas Pinkert]

When it comes to, like, intellectual work, like drawing, coloring, or, you know, writing their letters and those kinds of things, she's much more quick to help out with that.

[JP Donnell]

Interesting.

[Lucas Pinkert]

And I. I'm like, no, if he can't make an R, he can't make an R. Like, will, we'll work through it, right? But I'm not gonna, like, hold his hand and help him make the R shape. Like, I'll show him how to do it, and then if he does it and he does it well, like, whatever. So it's. It's interesting to me that we, you know, each one of us, I think, kind of has a bend of, like, what our personal pain thresholds are and what we are willing to see others do. But there is something to letting people struggle you know, you. The. One of the analogies I hear most often is like the butterfly, right? So like if the butter, when a butterfly is coming out of his cocoon, that if you help the butterfly out of their cocoon, they'll never be able to fly. Part of the reason they have to struggle out of the cocoon is because it forces blood into their wings. And if you help them out of the cocoon, blood is never forced into the veins of their wings. Their wings are crippled their entire lives. They'll never be able to fly. Right? So there is something, you know, both like in what we see in nature and also kind of what we see in our, our families, certainly in our businesses and those kinds of things. There is a point between the punishment, accountability, like, hey, here you go on a performance improvement plan. You know that this is the path that leads to termination. And the hey, no, I'm going to be the parent or the boss that like, coddles you because I see your potential and ultimately what I do is prevent your growth. Because circling back to our original idea that both sides of that coin, right, Whether you're way involved or whether you're way on the accountability side, both sides of that tend to come from a lack of detachment. They're like, you get so angry that now you're like, nope, you're going on a performance improvement plan because obviously you can't do this without any care, right? And then on the other side, it's no, I see what you can do, I see everything that you can be. I'm gonna help you make it to that point. And then we're so attached to everything that's going on, and maybe we've even attached ourselves to this person's success, that their success is going to be my success in such a way that I have to make sure that they win at everything in the right way. And man, I see this with so many parents, one in particular that like, would edit all of their kids papers before their kid turned the paper in. The kid wrote the paper and they're like, yeah, well, I had to make a few edits on it before they turned into the teacher, you know, so they didn't get low marks. I was like, the low marks are what's gonna help them to grow. Yeah, when you do the work for them, you actually prevent that growth from happening because there's that. So how do we stay in this kind of middle area where we help when it's appropriate to help and we facilitate growth through pain when that's appropriate, without allowing our Attachment to this person. Or maybe our attachment to our frustrations lead to the performance improvement plan and the ultimate termination. Or our attachment to their success being our success, where we actually help them through everything and kind of, you know, lead them by the nose, if you will, through all of that. How do we stay in this middle ground?

[JP Donnell]

I. I think. Well, the one. There is no middle ground. It's like balance. Right. It's a, It's a lie. There is no actual balance.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Right.

[JP Donnell]

Life, which I'm sure people get all spun up over that comment. But that's fine.

[Lucas Pinkert]

There's. There's not true balance, but there is a sweet spot. How do we find the sweet spot?

[JP Donnell]

Yeah, I think the sweet spot is farther to the side of hands off. Letting them ride the struggle bus. Yeah. Because that's the only thing that really develops growth. You know, I think back to how our parents raised us. And yeah, there's times where hands on, but a lot of the time it was like, nope, struggle, struggle, struggle. Like letting us struggle knowing that we could figure it out and we could work through it. My parents didn't let us do things knowing we're gonna get hurt badly. I mean.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Dramatic pause.

[JP Donnell]

Yeah, but that's real. Like they're saying to my parents, let us do that. They knew we were gonna get hurt.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yep.

[JP Donnell]

Because that teaches you. Like, hey, don't do that. Hey, we told you not to do that. You still wanted to. All right, cool, man. Like, let's, let's see how it plays out. Oh, it didn't play out the way you thought it was. Okay, cool. Let's. Let's talk about it. Now. The balance there is like when I got a motorcycle, my dad wasn't and my mom wasn't like, yeah. Oh, you don't have to wear a helmet. No, like, okay, you're wearing a helmet and here's why.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah. You know, knucklehead.

[JP Donnell]

Yeah. You end up with a head trauma and you, you can end up dead. Right. That's gonna be the worst thing.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Right.

[JP Donnell]

I think the. Something worse than death would be like being paralyzed and brain dead and still alive. Like, please, like, take me out of my misery. Like anybody's authorized to do that. Like, and, and so, you know, there, there is that, I guess, quote balance to that. But no, like when we were at my grandparents property and we were riding, you know, the wagons down the hill at full speed, they didn't have us wearing like a bicycle helmet and knee pads and elbow pads.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Right.

[JP Donnell]

And wrist guards aren't covered in bubble Wrap. No, Absolutely not. Because. And, you know, and they tell us, like, hey, if you. If you're going too fast and you can't slow down or you can't stop, like, you're going to hit a tree or you're going to, like, hurt yourself or. And there's so many times we would just eat it. Yeah. Just because we were going too fast and we're going down a gravel, like, road or down the hill and hitting a gravel road and trying to turn and, you know, just freaking rolling that wagon into the fence or into a tree or into the ground. It's like we're all bloody and crying and everything. And they're like, we told you not to do that wash off before you come inside the house. You better not get blood on grandma's carpet.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah.

[JP Donnell]

And that was tough love, and I'm thankful that we had that, you know. And so, you know, I remember one time, like, I got in. I don't remember what I got in trouble for, but I definitely got in trouble, and it was punishment I deserved. And so that weekend, I was working for my dad, and it was hard, physical manual labor. And part of it was, you know, it involved, like, moving some rebar. Well, my dad let that rebar sit in the back of the trailer out in the sun for hours before he had me move it. And it was calculated. He knew what he was doing. And I wasn't allowed to wear gloves.

[Lucas Pinkert]

It's not fun.

[JP Donnell]

No. But I could also get creative. And I remember, like, using my T shirt and putting dirt on my hands. And I think he, like, told me I couldn't use my T shirt anymore because he saw what I was doing. And it was funny because I. I remember when that happened, like, I saw, like, a little glimpse of him going, all right, that was smart. But he was trying to, like, make it miserable for me so that I would learn my lesson. Like, hey, don't do that ever again.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah.

[JP Donnell]

Like, you're in, like, you're in a lot of trouble. And, you know, it was just one of those things. And I think. I think we should err on the side of, like, struggle and pain. Because, like, I have. I have friends that had, you know, great childhoods. Obviously, they're, you know, like, really good parents, but their parents made a lot of money, and they never had to actually struggle. And then when they became adults and had families, like, they didn't know how to actually, like, work through that struggle on their own, and they had, like, a sense of entitlement because they were Always given things when they're growing up, they never had to, like, work for things. And, you know, and that's, you know, and that's the other thing is, like, you have to let your kids, like, learn to work through things and work for things to where they have a sense of pride and accomplishment for the things that they did. And that's hard. That's a hard balance. It's a hard balance to figure out.

[Lucas Pinkert]

It is, if I may say, nigh on impossible sometimes to figure out. But it is one of those things that it will be what separates having raised a good young man or a good young woman from someone who is not as productive as they could be. You know, not that they don't have good hearts or the best intentions or any of those things, but that they. They just. Their value system is not set up in such a way that they understand what it takes to be successful, no matter what area they end up applying that in.

[JP Donnell]

Yeah.

[Lucas Pinkert]

And that is one of the reasons why, you know, the. The way that we respond to people in, you know, like you've mentioned, like, one of the very first things in prioritizing and executing is. Is learning to detach. When we look at the projects that. That we had the most involvement in, it's really difficult for us to understand where in the priority list they fall or what priorities we got out of whack in the, you know.

[JP Donnell]

Yeah.

[Lucas Pinkert]

In the facilitating or the creation of. Of this project or this thing. And that's, you know, Jocko has told the story to a couple of musters where that, you know, detaching from everything. This is part of, like, decentralized command. Also, giving the guys the plan and, like, letting them plan it out made him look like a genius because he was far enough removed from the plan where he could find the couple of things where he was like, oh, you might think about this. You might think about this. And then like, oh, wow, boss, you're brilliant.

[JP Donnell]

Because he wasn't emotionally connected, Right.

[Lucas Pinkert]

And. But if you are emotionally connected to it, it's blinding. Then as soon as somebody says, yeah, as soon as somebody says, well, hey, boss, did you think about this? You're like, no, this is my plan. We're going with it. And I've been in that position where now all of a sudden, because I'm the leader and because this is my plan, my priorities have gotten so far out of whack that now I become adversarial to all of the people on my team who are legitimately finding things that need to Be fixed and are doing it because they believe in the mission, that now their adversary has become their leader. Because I don't like what they've said about my plan.

[JP Donnell]

Yeah, it's a hard one. And then, you know, another thing. I remember Dave and I were talking about this years ago, like, 2017, when we were.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Is this, like, Dave Burke, author of the need to Lead?

[JP Donnell]

Yeah. Yeah. National bestseller.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Good for him.

[JP Donnell]

I know.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Way to go, kid.

[JP Donnell]

Must be nice. But I had what, you know, we would talk about the understanding that, like, hey, the number one priority for accomplishing the mission and for the organization might not be your priority. So that brings us back to cover, move and understand. Like, okay, hey, if Lucas's priorities are actually higher than my priorities, what can I do to help Lucas and his team right now? Because you're saying, hey, that Lucas's team accomplishing this is like, the number one focus for the organization succeeding. Because if he fails at this is going to have a major impact on the whole organization. Cool. What. What? People, resources, whatever, can I allocate to Lucas's team to get that job done? Knowing that while we. This is really important to us. It's not the most important thing. Yeah. And that's hard because, like you were saying, the emotional connections, it's.

[Lucas Pinkert]

It's a balance, man. And so I say it's a balance. It's. It's a fine line is what it is. And all of leadership is walking on these different types of fine lines, finding which way you are shifting in your interpretation of different dichotomies and those kinds of things in order that you can put yourself in the right position. So we've talked about the struggle and detachment. We've talked about the way that our priorities can get out of whack. How do we learn to prioritize and execute? And what are the best ways for us to communicate that to our team? I know there's two different questions, but I think the answer from one flows into the other.

[JP Donnell]

Yeah, it's training. Like, you have to provide your people training and an opportunity for them to be inside in situations. And that's why I say training, because it's a controlled environment where somebody fails, makes the wrong decision, the wrong call, it's okay. It's like, no impact to the organization, the risk. If I put together a form of stressful training for you and your church staff to go through, but it's training, you know, there's. There's none of your congregation here. It's just your staff. What's the risk? If they do something wrong.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Almost zero.

[JP Donnell]

Yeah, yeah. We say almost because, you know, something crazy could happen.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah. Or they could, in a training, allow themselves to get a little too spirited, we'll say, and to. To cause some relational damage with some. With some peers by saying something that they. They shouldn't have said or something like that, which is a legit thing that can't happen. But it's. It'0 if they're taking the training seriously.

[JP Donnell]

Exactly. And that's why it's also on us as leaders to set the expectations and parameters properly and control that flow. But even if they do something, we can use that as an opportunity to work through solving that problem. Now, that's a real time problem. Hey, you know, so and so got a little too spirited. They said something they shouldn't have or hurt that person's feelings. I recognize it. It comes up in a debrief. I pull that one person aside, say, hey, man, I don't know if you're aware of this. This is what was said. Here's how it was received. This is like an issue that was created. Let's go talk to that person and work through it right now.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah.

[JP Donnell]

And so now I can take that from. Okay, a risk and then eliminate that risk. Because we solved the problem.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah.

[JP Donnell]

That's why training is so powerful, because it gives us the control to work through those things. But like you said, it's near zero, which means it's very, very, very low. That's why we need to take moments to train our people often and make them a priority. The lie that we tell ourselves is, I don't have time. I don't have time for training. We have all these other things we have to do. We have to. We have to prep and everything else like that. No, no, no. If you and your people understood the value of training and we're receiving value from training, you would make it a priority. The issue that I have when I work with companies and they, you know, bring us in and they make the training optional. The. The companies that make it optional, the people that don't show up are the people that don't see the value in the training. And the reason why they don't see the value in the training is because most of the other companies, quote, training was a waste of time because there was no value. There was just. It was like, hey, we're doing this just to do this. It's a, you know, one of the things I'll get from companies is like, hey, we just, you know, the problem that we've had in the past is we're doing all these trainings, but there's no follow through, there's no takeaways. You know, we were wasting our people's time. We don't want this to be another, you know, flavor of the month type of training.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Right.

[JP Donnell]

And so then I'm able to help them understand, like, hey, it won't be because this is what the training is about. Here's what I do to get your people engaged, to get them challenged. Here's the questions I asked in regards to what are your takeaways, what are you going to do with this work? And then they have implement. They have things that they can implement, I said, but also from the leadership side, here's some examples and formats that I'm going to give you for you to run with and take ownership over to help further the implementation. And when I'm able to have that conversation with companies and then do it, man, they have a good amount of buy in. They, they have a lot of follow through. And then therefore there's more impact. And because there's impact, we're reaching more people. And because we're doing that, because we're doing that, we get follow on work and we get engagements and then our company is able to grow and scale. But it's on me as an instructor to do that. And then I'm also able to drive the ownership back down to them and say, hey, now it's on you. Yeah, like, I've done my job. This was our engagement, you know, like, you know, here's my portion. We've all done our job. The next steps, it's you, right? And then being able to like drive. I think that's a big differentiating factor between us and other consulting companies is we are driving ownership back to the client every single time. Because we want the client to run with it. We want them to run with the things that we taught, the things that were received from their people so that they can, as leaders, lead their people by helping them implement those things. And I always tell people like, hey, your number one priority leaving this training, but is driving these things into the organization. Yeah, here's the next steps for you. Here's the next steps for your people. These are things that you guys can do and never have to work with.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Us again, which is a weird business model. But ultimately, like that is one of the things that separates Echelon front and what you guys do from everybody else is because you want people to be able to do these things, to take them and implement them on their own so that they don't need you to do it because they actually learned the lesson.

[JP Donnell]

But then as they're implementing it, they recognize, oh, there's so much more to learn. And because they know we have their best interests at heart, we've established a relationship. They trust us, we get follow on work.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah. And then you can get into more of the specifics, like, all right, cool. We implemented the four laws of combat. Now we're trying to figure out where we fall on the dichotomy is and on the self assessment.

[JP Donnell]

There's so many things that you do with clients in a folder. I mean, I know. I think this first quarter of 2026, we're going to do another full day workshop here in the Dallas Fort Worth area that will be open for individual ticket sales. We've done two of them before in the past. So, you know, anybody can sign up and come to the training. Companies can sign up and bring teams and everything else like that. As you've seen in those full day workshops, we cover a lot, but we also don't cover a lot. There's so many things that we can dive into. But from an instructor standpoint, I have to look at. Okay, hey, what's the number one priority? The number one priority is people understanding the laws of combat. Being able to implement the laws of combat and being able to do that with extreme ownership as well.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yep. I think the last big question that I have concerning this because we do have a lot of like, you know, it's. It's easy to know in a, in a, maybe in a manufacturing setting. Right. What prioritization and execution looks like. Because things have to be done in a certain order in order to crank out a widget that works properly and within is within certain tolerances or whatever.

[JP Donnell]

Right.

[Lucas Pinkert]

When you are an entrepreneur or you're beginning a business or you're realizing, hey, our business needs to pivot or maybe our household needs to pivot. Maybe we've been doing things a certain way and we've got to shift the way that we do them in order to hit financial goals or whatever that looks like. How do you start to prioritize a vision? Like, if now you've got this big vision for where you're going to go, how do you start to prioritize that vision? Do you start with consulting other people? Do you try to do it the best you can on your own, or do you cast the vision and just hope for the best?

[JP Donnell]

Well, I mean, the vision starts with you. And if it's something for your family. It should be something that you and your wife have alignment on.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Oh, that's a good point.

[JP Donnell]

And even your kids, like, you should include your kids into it. Like, when I started, I know we've talked about this a few times and, and you know, this is when I started at Echelon Front. Amanda and I were having conversations together. Amanda was in the truck talking with Jocko and I. Amanda was in the truck talking with Leif and I as they were setting expectations and standards and saying, hey, man, you can be as much or as little involved as you want in the growth. And I was like, I'm all in. I want everything. He's like, okay. Jocko's like, that means that you're gonna miss birthdays, anniversaries, your kids, kindergarten, graduation and other things, games, whatever else, all these things for a season, you know, and we were able to talk through that and Amanda was aligned with that. And out of the last nine years, because last week was the last week was the nine year anniversary of me coming on board. Echelon front.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Congratulations.

[JP Donnell]

Thank you. Over the last nine years, I've been gone a lot. I've missed anniversaries, birthdays, graduations, surgeries that Amanda and the kids have had. You know, just. I've missed a lot. That's a lot of days I've been gone out of all those days. Give me a ballpark number of the amount of times that you think Amanda was frustrated and like, brought up. Like, me having to leave.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Frustrated would be a difficult one, but brought up you having to leave or like, trying to hold that against you, I would say it's. It's less than three.

[JP Donnell]

Yeah, it's zero.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah.

[JP Donnell]

Zero. Zero times has Amanda ever, ever complained about me leaving? Zero, bro. In nine years. Like, that's unreal. The reason why I bring that up is because we had alignment and like, she believed in this opportunity and she believed in me. And not once has she ever complained. Not once has she ever, you know, asked, hey, do you really need to go on this trip? Do you really need to do this ftx? Not once. Now when the kids were little, they would be like, dad, do you really have to leave? And Amanda would, like, get onto him, like, hey, stop. Because she knew that was like breaking my heart. There's times I would pack and the girls would, would sit in my suitcase, you know, because they didn't want me to leave. And Aiden would, like be sitting there as well and not want me to leave and, you know, but their Kids, they weren't doing it, like, with ill intent. And she.

[Lucas Pinkert]

The words daddy, don't go are, bro. Yeah, I've gotten them a couple of times. And, yeah, it's the worst, man.

[JP Donnell]

Yeah, it's. It's the worst.

[Lucas Pinkert]

And it makes you want to call and say, hey, I can't do this.

[JP Donnell]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then you also know, as a man, providing for your family, that's not an option.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yep.

[JP Donnell]

And also, you're showing your kids what.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Like, what real prioritization looks like.

[JP Donnell]

Yep. And what your word means.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah.

[JP Donnell]

Because when you say you're gonna do something, you do it. And. Yeah. It's just amazing. Like, freaking nine years. Not once, man has a woman ever made me feel guilty or mad or frustrated that I was having to go do work, you know? And, you know, multiple times over the years, she's always reminded me, like, hey, Jocko and Leif picked you to be the first instructor for a reason.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah.

[JP Donnell]

They picked you to be a part of the team for a reason. You belong here. You belong doing what you're doing. You need to go do that. Like, you need to go do that. And, you know, that's my wife also understanding the priorities that I have to provide for my family. And, you know, freaking nine years ago, I was delivering pizzas. I know. I've talked about that multiple times, but nine years ago, I was delivering pizzas to make ends meet. And, you know, my priority in life is to never have to do that. Now, what have I had to. For sure, I'll do. I literally do anything to provide for my family, but my priority is to, like, never be in that position to where, like, we're wondering, like, hey, can we go buy groceries? Can we buy groceries today, or do we have to wait another day?

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah.

[JP Donnell]

How much gas can I put in my truck? I can't fill it up, because if I fill it up, then we can't go. You know what I mean? Like, I. I'll never be in that position again. Like, I will never. And I'm not saying that in that prideful, you know, prideful, bad way, but I'm saying that in confidence in, like, what God has given me and me being a good steward of my finances and my opportunities and knowing that, you know, like, hey, that, you know, that's. These are two different lives. So have an alignment. So going back to your question, like, hey, you got to have alignment with your spouse when it comes to vision and goals. Like, hey, this is what we're wanting to do. This is what we need to do, Come up with a plan and then do an honest assessment. Like, okay, hey, desiring capabilities. Are we capable of doing these things? Yes or no? Yes. Cool. What work can we do? What's needed? What small iterative step can we take that's also part of prioritizing. Execute is like making small iterative steps in the right direction that you think you're moving so that you don't make a big movement in the wrong direction. And then, you know, start getting to work. Start getting to work, do some more. You're making a little bit of progress, making a little progress. And then maybe in the beginning stages, you reach out to somebody who has a detached perspective with experience in life, business, whatever. Right. If. If they've gone through what you're about to go through, I would absolutely talk to them. But I'd also be careful taking the advice of everybody, because there's gonna be a lot of people that give you bad advice. There's gonna be a lot of people that are going to just push back and turn down your dreams and your goals and your vision because they've never had the guts to go pursue their own.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah. Or. Or they can't see it, and therefore it can't happen.

[JP Donnell]

Yeah. Because if it's not capable, if they don't see themselves being capable of it, then you should go try. I mean, bro, the amount of people that, you know, when I said I was going in the Navy to become a Navy SEAL that, like, laughed and said, bro, do you know what's required? Do you know how hard that training is? Like, bro, you're not gonna make it. You know, like, the amount of people. Now, none of my family did that, right? But the amount of other people that were, quote, friends, you know, trying to help me out, like, it was crazy. Like, if I would have listened to the majority of the advice that I got about becoming a Navy seal, then I never would have joined the Navy, never became a Navy seal. So, yeah, you know, there's that.

[Lucas Pinkert]

I think you won.

[JP Donnell]

Yeah.

[Lucas Pinkert]

In that respect.

[JP Donnell]

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, good times.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Well, so this is our third in a series that we're doing on the laws of combat. We already covered cover move. We've done simple prioritize and execute. Last one we'll do is decentralized command. If you've got questions about this, you want to join the conversation on it, hit us up on Instagram. JP is @jpdonelle. I am Lucas Pinkert. Or you can go to P. Dennell Podcast, Check out some of the podcast clips, share them with your friends because that's the way people find out about this show is mostly through word of mouth. If you want to give us a review on itunes or Spotify, comment on our YouTube Chann all of those things help out and help to fund and fuel what we're doing. So also shout out to our folks who help us with our Instagram page. Our friends over at first in Nutrition, Jonathan and Ann are offering four free weeks of nutrition coaching to anyone who listens to the JP Dental podcast. If you go to firstinnutrition.com JP Pod then you'll get four free weeks of nutrition coaching. And if you want to see more of Jonathan and Ann because you haven't gotten enough of a full of them on our Instagram channel, you're already talking to them on that. Go check out the the Echelon Front Online Academy. They are on that Monday afternoon call. The Extreme Ownership Online Academy has some incredible resources that are there. If you are listening to us talking about training you're like man, I don't know how to do that. I don't know if our company can facilitate that type of training. Don't worry, that's on. Front Online has you covered because they've got classes on how to integrate the laws of combat into your company culture, how to create a company culture of leadership that's long lasting, all of those types of things. They even have some classes on safety that are hosted and instructed by the man himself, JP Danelle. So go check out that Extreme Ownership Online Academy. And if you want to come to an Echelon Front event, we have the muster coming up. Muster023, the jumpman, the Michael Jordan Muster, as you informed us of last time we were together, will be in Orlando. There's still few tickets available for that and I just, I just got word.

[JP Donnell]

Few is the word.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah, I just got word that our friend Ethan Bernard, who is if you have been following our podcast or Ethan's journey on Instagram, the 660 pound man that is now down almost 200 pounds to nearing 460. He's just been in Philly with his coach. Him and Jocko are actually hanging out today. He posted that on Instagram, which is pretty cool. But he's going to be there as well. If you are in need of some skincare, so many of us are. One of the things that you need to do, go to littlecattle Co. They've got an incredible array of beef tallow products for skincare, after sun care, anti itch cream, all of those things. And as you're taking care of yourself in that regard, you got to remember, hey, you know what? Now that I look pretty, I got to do something with this pretty face. Why don't you go get it grounded in some mats. Go check out Jesus in Jiu Jitsu. We've got regularly scheduled seminars throughout the year all over the country in 2025 and 2026. We just had an incredible this past weekend, an incredible event with Carlos Henrique, who's the current lightweight champion in the UFC BJJ league. Tadashi, the Grammy award winning Christian rapper was there.

[JP Donnell]

Two time Grammy.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah, yeah, two time Grammy. Yep. So yeah, he came, shared his testimony. It was an awesome event and a big shout out to the folks over at Jocko Fuel for hooking us up ton of product to pass out to those people. If you are not on the path with Jocko Fuel stuff, go check out jockofuel.com and use our code JP Pod20 to save 20% on all of that stuff. And as JP leaves the studio, he's about to head over to to the warehouse to on the Path to go print up some logos and, and stuff for, for some of their customers. If you need apparel printed for your brand or your company, go check out at on the Path. The Path printing. Now that you got your skin taken care of, your nutrition's dialed in. Let's get, let's move from the Jiu Jitsu to the Pugitsu. Let's go check out at Bruiser Arms. It's Leif, JP and Jocko. They put together custom gear packages and custom training. Go check some of that stuff out. They've got some pictures of some of the stuff that they've done. It's absolutely amazing. They get little, I will refer to them just as what they are. They're really nice box openers that are made by the folks over there. They could open up other things too. You know, boxes, bottles, whatever you need. It. Um, you could, you could check that. That that's in partnership with our, our friends over at Half Face Blades. They got some really cool stuff. So go check out at Bruiser Arms. And then finally, big shout out to the folks over at Origin for Pete and Amanda for bringing manufacturing back to America. And right now they have a partnership that they're doing with Tap Cancer out. You should check out. It's a gi. It's a rash garden. It's a shirt that are part of that line. It is artwork that was hand painted by, by somebody at Origin Immersion Camp. It's Absolutely stunning. So go check that stuff out if you want to not only buy from an all American manufacturer, not just assembled in the usa, made in the usa from seed to shirt, go check out origin and you can partner with them to. To support a great cause with tap cancer. Out, Out. So jp, any final thoughts before you. You go and print some shirts?

[JP Donnell]

Yeah, also can you print one Armed? Yes.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah, all right.

[JP Donnell]

Yes, I can.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Those videos need to go on our Instagram. Your one arm printing.

[JP Donnell]

Yeah, man. You know, we, we talked about a lot of good stuff today and you know, one, I want to thank all of our listeners, you know, that listen, support, you know, and one of the things that, you know, we want to make a priority is making sure that we're delivering the right proper content for our listeners. So if there's things that you guys want us to talk about, send us messages on the Instagram page, you know, comment on the Post, comment on YouTube, you know, so that we can, you know, get that feedback. Also, I know we're gonna start putting out more shorts and videos and so if there are like clips that you think would be really good, like let us know.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Yeah, shoot me the episode. Yeah, I'll find it.

[JP Donnell]

Shoot Lucas the episode. And if you really want to, like, if you really want to help Lucas, like say, hey, please help this. There's so many things you need help with. You say, hey, this episode at this time, Mark. Yep. If you, I mean we'll find it. But like, if you're really wanting to help us out and if you're like, hey, I really like this video. Here's what I got from the video. I'd like to be able to share that. I think other people would do that. I, I don't know what. But I'm, I, as I was talking, I was just thinking like, I think we could run some like fun little contests. Like if you, if you give Lucas feedback on like hey episode, you know, 17, this, this 30 second segment starting here and he uploads that as a short and we do a bunch of other ones, whatever short gets the most views, then we'll do something for you. Like, I'll do something for you. I'll send you something. Like, I don't know, may. Maybe it's a half face blade. Maybe it's, you know, something from on the path.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Maybe it's the first NCC shirt.

[JP Donnell]

Yep.

[Lucas Pinkert]

Bruv.

[JP Donnell]

Yeah. So, you know, that would really help us out because, you know, we're also really wanting to like, make sure we're putting out the right content that is going to help our listeners and help our listeners, friends and family that they can send to them. So that would be awesome. But you know, hey, life is going to be chaotic. There's a lot of things going on in life, and the best thing that you can do is teach yourself how to detach from your emotions so that you can think logically, you can collect data and information before you make a decision. That's why detachment is a superpower. I hope this episode has been a reminder to go do the work that is needed, to put in the effort to build your legacy and to never settle. This has been the JP Donnell podcast, episode 111.