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The Price of Blame: How Forgiveness Creates Success | JP Dinnell Podcast 107
00:53:43
Real leadership isn’t about being perfect — it’s about taking ownership when you fall short and leading through forgiveness, accountability, and humility. In Episode 107 of the JP Dinnell Podcast, JP and Lucas break down what true Extreme...
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- [00:01]
A
Good morning. This is the JP now podcast, episode 107. I am JP Donnell and as always, I have Lucas with me. What's up buddy?
- [00:06]
B
What's going on man?
- [00:09]
A
Lots of good stuff. How are you?
- [00:10]
B
I'm doing well. Dad's like on the mend from. From quintuple bypass, which I guess is the most bypasses you can do at one time. So. Yep. And he's staying with us for a couple weeks, which my kids are absolutely loving. They're like waiting at the baby gate for him to wake up and as soon as he like comes to, they're like, you want to come play Ninja Turtles with us? He's like, yeah, Yep, why not? So, yeah, we're, that's cool. We, we're doing all the things, managing pain and keeping him occupied.
- [00:41]
A
So that's important.
- [00:43]
B
Yeah, it's fun.
- [00:44]
A
That's great.
- [00:44]
B
It's been a blast. And you just, you recently got done with what FTX018? This is an individual FTX?
- [00:51]
A
Yeah, yeah, two day individual FTX. You know, kicked off the classroom, like dinner classroom intro on Wednesday night and then all day FTX on Thursday and Friday. And it was good, it was great. Ftx. You know, one of the things that Cody and I were talking, we noticed like, you know, every FTX there's different personalities, there's a different vibe from the groups and this group was awesome. They were default aggressive from like the get go, but not like in a bad, non controlled way. Now obviously as the training goes on and we're ramping things up and manipulating the scenarios to bring out different characteristics and behaviors and tendencies, you know, they get sucked into it and they, you know, go to default aggressive, which that's actually, that's actually what we want, we want them to see like, hey, being obviously default aggressive is important. It's one of the things that we teach at Echelon front. But if you're too default aggressive, it can actually cause problems. And when they were able to see those and feel in real time provided some really, really good debrief points. We had really good conversations with this group. A lot of progression and growth in the first day. And then, you know, after day one, we do a dinner, end of day debrief with them back at the hotel. And that's always a really good one because you know, they're all getting, you know, just sit around and enjoy dinner, reflect on the day and it's always a different posture from night one for I guess technically day one is Wednesday, but day one of the Actual FTX training. When they're at that Wednesday night dinner, it's really cool to see people sitting in their fire because we place people in there at tables in their fire team. So right away from get go, they get to start meeting the people that are gonna be in their fire teams. And sometimes it might be the people they know because they're working with them, but there's always gonna be a mixture of other people in there. So watching people with new people, you know, getting to know them, learning about their industries, just, you know, all that. And then at the end of day one, so Thursday night, that, that posture is completely different because they, they already know those people, they spent the day with them, but there's a little more like reflection because now they're really talking about the runs and what they take away and they're, you know, preparing for the next day. Because I, I've never had one person that I know of that's really ever stood out that came through an FTX that did not want to win when they're out there running the scenarios. And you know, that's a characteristic of almost every single person we work with because people don't like to lose, people don't like to fail, people don't like to make mistakes. And that's one of the things that I talk about during the keynotes and the workshops, whether it's a half day workshop or full day workshop we do at Echelon Front or during an FTX is, hey, people generally, they want to win, they care, they actually, they don't want to make mistakes. Now occasionally every organization will have maybe one or two people that really don't care. Like they just, they're there for the job, they're there for their paycheck, they're just mentally taxed out. They might have some personal stuff going on, they might have some major conflict with their leadership, they might have been burned at work, they were by peer and they're just in survival mode. But the, the majority of the people that wake up and go to work, they want to win, they want to perform, they want to do a good job. Would you agree with that?
- [04:26]
B
100%.
- [04:27]
A
Okay. And so we know that about humans. And so when they come through an ftx, which is a very humbling training that we do at Echelon Front, they're going to struggle, they're going to fail, they're not going to come out on top like they think they should in the training. And the big thing that we're always trying to overcome at an FTX is people getting sucked into the tactics of the scenarios.
- [04:52]
B
Right?
- [04:52]
A
We're not, we don't teach tactics at Echelon Front in an ftx, we don't do that. We're teaching leadership. We're exposing your leadership strengths and flaws in a stress induced environment that's controlled so that you can sit and reflect after every rung and after every run. And the main focus of the FTX is that Cody runs and that we facilitated. Echelon Front is a debrief. We care more about the debrief, the debrief than what you actually did out there on the run. Like, I don't care about the run, I don't care about the tactics. I don't care. What I care about is are you humble enough and reflective enough of yourself to sit down and say, all right, hey, here's what I did well, here's what I did wrong, here's what I learned, here's my takeaways, here's how it applies to business, here's how it applies to my family, here's how it applies to my marriage, here's how it applies to my kids. And then can you take those things and start implementing changes? That's what we're trying to do. And that end of day one, dinner and debrief, you see that posture shift and change in people. There's a lot of reflection, a lot of really good conversations. They're also physically smoked, even though there's not a lot of physical activity that we do. But the fact that you're walking around all day long and conducting these quote, missions that we put together. There is a physical demand for sure, but the biggest demand is the mental fatigue that people get because they're stressed out. You're in a leadership position and you're not doing as well as you think you should or you want to do. And that's a taxing thing on people. And so us being able to sit down and talk that at night, at the end of day one, is always awesome. And then we open it up for Q and A. And you know, Cody and I get really good questions, really good conversations, and it opened up a lot of reflection from our attendees. And you know, one of the things that Cody says is like, hey, at an ftx, it's very rare, almost not likely that we're going to pull any one person aside and give them individual feedback. We, we typically don't do that unless it's like a major thing, like they're really missing the mark or, you know, something personal is Going on doing something.
- [07:05]
B
That endangers others by.
- [07:07]
A
Yeah, that almost never happens. It's more of like a posture. Like if somebody's like super aggressive, angry, mad, you know, losing their temper, which we almost never see. Occasionally we've seen that the, like the.
- [07:20]
B
The competitive dad attitude that some people have that like I have to win no matter what.
- [07:25]
A
Yeah, yeah. And we'll address that because when people start like blaming the other people and you know, getting fired up like, yep, we'll address it now it's cool because most of the time we address it in a debrief without addressing that individual and they recognize that we're talking to them and it's, it's funny. One of the things that Cody said is, hey, during a debrief, if you think we're talking to you, we are. If the shoe fits, we're probably talking to you.
- [07:57]
B
Yeah.
- [07:58]
A
And you know, it's just a, you know, I remember one time Jocko said that we were doing a company wide call and we were running through stuff and Jocko said, hey, if you think I'm talking to you, I am. Like, if you think I'm talking about you, I absolutely am. Whether I had your name in my brain or not. Like I am 100% talking about you. And it's just always a great moment of reflection and it opens up the doors for deep conversations. And, and then one of the things I added during the dinner is like, hey, you know, if you guys want one on one feedback, we can provide that because we're watching and observing and you know, we pretty much have personality profiles on those people by the end of day one, if not day two for sure. And, and that's why we offer like follow on calls after the ftx and you know, that's why we do strategic coaching at Echelon Front as well. And I had some pretty cool questions after day one that opened up some like really good, humbling conversations. But I mean you've been in ftx, you observed, you helped with marketing or the media team capture stuff before. Like when you were able to watch it from a detached perspective, what were some of the things that like stood out to you that you maybe still reflect upon or is just kind of in your brain?
- [09:16]
B
Yeah, well, the, the first thing is that the tactics don't matter. And I will say that's frustrating to me as a competitive person and I do want to know before we dive in too much into, too deep into my thoughts is do you have groups that never quote, win a scenario because you do There are a lot of different runs people may go through. Like I would say probably between like five and, and maybe like 10 runs a day. Depending on how quick the runs and stuff are going. That may not be a bad number. Do you ever have a group that never like wins a scenario over the course of two days?
- [10:03]
A
It's very rare. Usually when we're doing a two day, by the end of that second day they're starting to put it together. Yeah, they're really starting to put it together. So when we do one day of txs, we used to do individual one days and they all sold out and they had really good demand. But we saw like people really needed two days when they're coming from an individual or small groups. When we're doing a corporate ftx, meaning we're working with one company. Yeah, we can get to the finish line in one day because people are.
- [10:36]
B
Used to working together.
- [10:37]
A
Those people are used to working together. There's a culture within that organization. There's a, you know, there's conscious and subconscious alignment on a lot of things so we can get them across the fish line faster than, versus a bunch of just different groups of people and individuals. Like, you know, we had a few people on this last one, they, they literally were there by themselves.
- [10:56]
B
Yeah.
- [10:56]
A
And so now they're trying to like mesh with different companies and cultures and.
- [11:00]
B
Like, like David Marr was from Australia a few FTX ago.
- [11:04]
A
Yeah.
- [11:05]
B
But I guess about a year ago now.
- [11:06]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so we had a few of those individuals and they did well, but you could tell they were just like bro, getting really frustrated and you know, they, they had the reflection and they realized like, okay, hey man, like one of the guys, I have a lot of respect for him because he was talking to me and he goes, man, I realized, and this was on day two, at the beginning of day two, after like the first or second run, maybe he was talking to me, he's like, you know, what I realized is I thought because of what I do in my business, he has like a coaching mentoring group that he does with men. He goes, I felt like I had to be the guy in charge because that's what I do with my business and I'm reflecting. He goes, do I really need to be doing that with my business? Because these guys are coming to me and we're doing these different events and I always feel like I have to be leading from the front and setting the example. And I said, yeah, you should be setting the example, but it doesn't mean you have to be out front all the time. Because if you're out front all the time. And as I'm thinking and reflecting on this conversation, one of the things I wish I would have told him, or actually, I wish we would have dove deeper into it, is if you're always out front leading the charge, then these men will always need you. Now, from a business standpoint, awesome, great. These guys will always need you. But that's not his intent. His heart posture isn't for these guys to be tethered to him. It's to grow and develop and equip these men. And. And part of that is empowering guys to step up and lead and, you know, doing what Jocko did with me when he pulled me aside, hey, jp, I need you to put your name on your helmet in big, bold letters so that I can find you. So that Seth, Benny, and the rest of you guys can find you. I need you to be my go to guy. I need you to step up. I need you to lead. And I said it's the same thing you need to be doing with these men that are coming to you for coaching. Because at the end of the day, they need to be leading their families, their wives, their kids, their businesses, their health, you know, all these things. They need to be comfortable with. Stepping up lead, failing, having humility, resetting, doing evaluations. And if you're always the one that's leading the charge, none of them will do it on their own.
- [13:19]
B
Yeah. And they won't know that there's a space to do it or that you want them to do it. This is one of the biggest leadership challenges that I've had as a pastor.
- [13:27]
A
I bet.
- [13:27]
B
Oh, man. Is because, like, I. When I'm ready for somebody to step up or when I feel like, you know, I've created space for them, most of the time, they don't understand that that's what I've been doing. And then there's this weird frustration begins to come up where they're wondering why I'm not being as supportive as I used to be. I'm like, well, I'm like, I'm actually trying to move you into this role. They're like, oh, I thought that, like, I did something to upset you or that, you know, maybe you had other stuff going on. They felt not supported instead of, you know, empowered. And that's a massive thing to. To hear and to know, like, hey, all right, there's a different way that I need to do this in order to. To get people to step up. And it's, you know, the, the thing about the FTX is so good is that it's not about winning, even though the skills that you learn are going to help you succeed and help you win.
- [14:30]
A
And that's winning. Yeah, learning is winning. You know, that's one of the things I say almost every ftx because it.
- [14:36]
B
Feels like it should be about winning.
- [14:37]
A
I agree. Yeah. And that's actually one of the things that Sal Frisella, the CEO of first form, one of my very close friends, he said when we were doing FTX 003 up in St. Louis and a lot of his company came and attended that FTX as well, and he was out observing, watching his guys go to the training, and he was. Which is really cool. Like him being able to observe the training. And then, you know, Leif, Cody and I are running the ftx, but Sal also being able to, like, participate in some of the debriefs. I mean, that guy is a phenomenal leader. I mean, Sal, for. Sal is a phenomenal leader. Like, all of us has his strengths and weaknesses and he knows that and he's aware of it and he's always trying to improve who he is as a leader. And I just have a lot of love for Sal and a lot of respect for him about how he, you know, what he's done at first form and what he does in his marriage and with his kids. You know, he's. He has mentored so many leaders at first form and he's helped these men and women achieve lifestyles that they never dreamed possible.
- [15:39]
B
Yeah.
- [15:39]
A
You know, which. That's a testament of a true leader, you know, and that's what you're, you're doing as a pastor. You're trying to equip these men and women. Like, no, no, no. I want so much more for you than you can actually see right now. Yeah. That's why I'm letting you do these things and I want you to do these things and you're more than equipped. You know, you're more than equipped. And so anyways, he said this one at that FTX was. He said winning is learning. Because they were all pissed off that they came back from this run and they all thought they were going to do great and it absolutely fell apart. It was a horrible run, if you look at it from a tactical standpoint.
- [16:17]
B
Yeah.
- [16:18]
A
Just horrific.
- [16:19]
B
Yeah. From x's and o's, it was bad.
- [16:22]
A
Yes.
- [16:22]
B
Y.
- [16:23]
A
But, you know, and that's why he's trying to, like, encourage not only his people, but all the Attendees, he goes, hey, winning is learning. If you can't learn from these runs, then yeah, you're not winning. And that's one of the things that, you know, I've always said a version of that is like, I really don't like when people say you either win or you learn. That's bull crap. You either win or you lose. Now whether you learn from those wins or losses is 100% on you. Yeah, 100% on you. And that's why we as individuals have to be humble enough to do a self reflection and ask ourselves, like, okay, am I winning? Am I winning in my marriage, in my finances, my family, my business? You know, the relationship with my leadership, the relationship with my peers, the relationship with the people around me, like the relationship with my neighbors, you know, the relationship with the people that you go to church with, the small groups that you're part of or that you lead or when you're serving at your church or when you're leading your church and you're empowering other people, like, hey, am I actually winning? What does winning look like? And you have to understand what winning looks like to achieve that. And so it was just, it was a really cool group that we had. Their attitude was awesome. You know, there's a lot of really good questions during the, you know, the FTX is, and hey, was that the worst run ever? Was that the worst run ever? Was that the worst run ever? People actually won that? Have people done better? And it was really cool because Cody and I usually will hit this at the, like towards the end of day two, like, and one of the leaders from a run, like brought it up during a debrief and he goes, you know, we keep asking JP and Cody, was that the worst run ever? Have people done better? Blah, blah, blah. He goes, it's not about that. He goes, it's not about these runs, it's about what do we write down in these workbooks, what do we take away that can be applied to our business and our families, in our personal lives? And bro, when this guy said that, I was smiling ear to ear because for him to see that, reflect upon that and then as a peer to all these other attendees, you know how much more power that had coming from him instead of like Cody and I, because here's the. I also know that if Cody and I say that there's power there because we have the authority of our position at Echelon, front and running, the training and our backgrounds and you know, we know why people pay to come train with us. We know that. But also when they can see it themselves, when they're looking at the mirror and they're like, oh, that's actually what's happening. This is what we need to do. It was so much more powerful and it was really cool to see that. And that's why the FTXs are so impactful.
- [19:06]
B
It is. One of those things is a little bit like, you have to say that, like, when you know you're your daughters, ask you if they're pretty and you're like, yeah, you're gorgeous. And they're like, well, you have to say that you're my dad. Right? Like that sort of thing. Like, well, of course you have to say that. It doesn't matter because that's how you know you're part of this. And when, when people come to that realization on their own, they're like, no, it really doesn't. Because the FTX that I observed, there were some pretty catastrophic failures. There was one point in particular that before the debrief began, the things were really tense and the entire FTX team, I'm capturing media, so I'm looking around and I'm realizing there's a lot of tension. And I asked one of the guys who was there and they were like, no, this is what I didn't see because I was trying to get in position for the next shot, was that the two platoons caught glimpses of each other through the bushes and basically started like a miniature skirmish where it was all blue on blue. On the way back to the debrief, like, after, like, right before the scenario completely ended by them getting to the bridge in a place where they should have been, you know, watching each other's sixes. Instead, they just, like, saw each other and, yeah, just rampage. So, like, seeing that happen, which was. And how you guys handled it in the debrief was essentially this idea that, like, this isn't designed. The FTX is not designed for you to win. The FTX is designed for you to learn. And that that's exactly what you guys did in the field training exercises you did in SEAL training was it's, if all we do is give you W's, then you're going to think that you're the best and you're never going to learn these positions. So we've got to move people to places where they're going to be uncomfortable and into roles where they're going to have to listen to others where they're not in charge. And then some people who are uncomfortable being in charge are going to have to find their voice in order for the whole team to elevate. I think the biggest, the most impactful thing for me watching from a distance was to see how leadership had less of a mental fatigue on people that weren't willing to lead. Right. Like moving them into a leadership position. There was less mental fatigue on a person who was willing or who was unwilling to lead to get moved into a leadership position or maybe was like shying away from it a little bit and got moved into an elevated position. The mental fatigue on them was much less than when a person who is used to being that high level leader and performer and the one that's in charge of everything when they're forced to follow. The mental fatigue on the person that's forced to follow when they're used to being at the front is what really struck me as like, those were the people that felt like they were on the verge of, you know, kind of maybe it's, you know, being angry and getting frustrated or giving constructive feedback and not blaming everybody else because they're, they're in a position that they're not used to being in. And I think those were also the ones where by the end of the run or if they were in that position for maybe a couple of runs in a row where they began to realize like, I wonder if this is what my people feel like.
- [22:19]
A
Yeah. And we've had leaders. Denver Wetton, with Dagon Construction. He came to FTX001 and that was his big takeaway that he saw when day two started. And that's why the next week he called me and was like, I need an FTX for 50 of my leaders ASAP.
- [22:41]
B
Yeah.
- [22:41]
A
Because he recognized when he's getting frustrated, he goes, oh, this is how my people feel with me and my other key leaders. And when he recognized that, he was able to be like, nope, I got some stuff to fix. And he's a very humble leader. He's a great leader. He's invested a lot into his people and it's been cool to see that progression of growth as well for sure. But yeah, so yeah, the training is incredible. You know, we have the muster coming up in Orlando in December. We have the post muster FTX that sold out as well.
- [23:15]
B
And that's at Disney. Disneyland, right?
- [23:19]
A
Not so much.
- [23:20]
B
Yeah, Disneyland's in California.
- [23:23]
A
But keeping scored. I know there's a few people that are cool. Yeah, that's a long trip. But yeah, that one day post muster FTX that we do just so people can say, okay, hey, I Went to the muster. Now let me implement these things real time in the ftx. And they recognize like, oh man, this is not, I've got some work to do.
- [23:44]
B
Yeah, Jonathan and Ann Montgomery did that in San Antonio.
- [23:47]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [23:49]
B
On one of their, their Sunday Funday things that they do, their little live chats that they do at first in nutrition, they just talked about like even though they've been in the game for so long with Echelon front and they've, you know, Ann at that point had even spoken at the women's assembly and all of that. She was like, I freaking sucked.
- [24:09]
A
Like it was, oh, they're humble leaders that are able to work themselves.
- [24:12]
B
But yeah, like, but that's the thing is that when you do that you realize that even if you've been implementing these principles for years and they've saved your business and they've turned, you know, your business around, your marriage around, they've helped you to, to create all of these incredible things that you have and achieve your dreams that like sometimes when you get stuck in the real world and into stress inducing scenarios, you're like, yeah, no, I'm still pretty terrible at this.
- [24:33]
A
Yeah. And it's cool because they, they also signed up to come observe that one because we allow post. I'm sorry not. But we allow previous FTX attendees to actually sign up and you know, they have to like, they reach out to Cody and I. It's not something we have on the website.
- [24:49]
B
Sure.
- [24:50]
A
Like as advertised because we want it to be selected. But you can actually, if you've done an FTX and you want to come see a different perspective, you know, we have, you have the ability to sign up and it's, it's a different price point, but you can come and actually observe an ftx. And so you're shadowing Cody and I on every run during the debriefs. You have the ability to actually participate and give a point during a debrief that we kind of walk you through, we coach you through as well and then you, if you want, you can also go see it from the role players perspective and shadow them and actually participate. So the return on that investment is unreal because we've had people do that and they're like, I learned more from that because you saw stage one, which is attend. And now they're at level two. Stage two, right. Of just observing, shadowing and seeing it from a different angle is just completely different.
- [25:42]
B
And it's so good to be able to understand what goes into creating those kinds of Trainings. Because one of the things we've talked about here at length is that, you know, training is often what is most lacking in organizations is that the reason that we're not doing things well doesn't have to do. I mean, yeah, there's some communication stuff, there's all these things, but it's because we haven't done our due diligence in properly training the people that we're leading.
- [26:07]
A
Yeah.
- [26:08]
B
And when you see what goes into that kind of training and you're like, alright, so there's a ton that went into that. Well, you know, I can probably put 20 minutes into, teach my people how to properly sign off on an email or you know, like how to respond.
- [26:22]
A
To an objection or.
- [26:24]
B
Yeah, like, like any of those things. Right. Like we could put 15 or 20 minutes in to that because I'm not trying to do this. And all of that becomes a little bit more attainable. It feels like whenever you see like the scope of what you guys are doing, it makes it much easier to be like, oh, well, you know what, we could spend 15 minutes a week working on this or role playing on this or whatever because it's going to make us that much better.
- [26:46]
A
Yeah. And it's just understanding like, hey, that actually should be a priority 100. And then when you see that things are a priority like you see in an FTX or just when you start applying these things, you remove the, the mindset that a lot of people have of I don't have time. You're not allowed to say I don't have time. Yeah, just say it's not a priority. That changes things. Because if you're gonna say it's not a priority for me to work out, it's not a priority for me to eat healthy, it's not a priority for me to spend time with my kids after a long workday because I have all this other work that I have to get done. Man, if I don't get it done, I'm gonna be behind tomorrow. And then you look down the road 10, 15 years later and you've spent zero time with your kids and you're wondering why your kids are being influenced by other people that you just, you know, it, it quit. It happens over time.
- [27:38]
B
Yeah.
- [27:39]
A
And it's a slow thing, but it happens very fast. And yeah. And so you just recognize like, oh, actually the things in my life that are important, I need to make it a priority. And one of those is communicating with your people, building relationships and doing some sort of training. Like you should be Doing some sort of training with your people all the time, you know, and the opportunity that we have at Echelon Front is so special because we get to talk with people. We get to meet people from all different walks of life. And Cody and I were talking about this one individual that attended the training, and if you were to look at this person just from the outside, you would think, like, man, they probably don't want to be here. They were told to be here from their leadership just by just kind of like the way they're interacting at the very beginning. And it was cool because after. And we had a few people say this to Cody and I, and I had a few people say this after the second run. They came up to me and they're like, this is the best training I've ever been a part of. And I'm like, man, it's only run two of day one. And one of the guys was like, I know, I'm so excited. And it was really cool to, like, see that shift in his attitude and his engagement. And this guy was like, in the game. Like, in. In the game. And so at the end of day one, during that dinner afterwards, a few people came up to me like, hey, I'm just wondering, like, hey, what type of an assessment do you have of me? And I was able to kind of walk through a few thoughts and ideas that I had just from what I saw. And, you know, I know. I mean, obviously I don't say this at Echelon Front events just to keep, you know, a little bit of separation there, but, you know, I'm. I know you and I have talked about this. Like, you know, I would say one of the gifts that God has given me is the gift of discernment and being able to interact with people and just kind of, like, discerning certain things that haven't actually been shared with me. And so as I'm talking through with a few people, like, it was cool because every single one of them were like, dang, that's 100% spot on. Like, that is me to a T. And I said, well, I'm able to see it from a different perspective. I'm looking from the outside. You're in a stressful environment. Who you are comes out in a stressful environment, the good and the bad. And that shouldn't. That shouldn't deter anybody from coming to an ftx. Like, they're scared. Like, oh, I'm gonna get exposed. Like, we all want to be exposed. You should want to be exposed as a leader, because it's not just bad, it's you're good traits as well. And if you can have an exposure of who you are as a human good and bad, it allows you to capitalize on those things. And so now you can become stronger in your strengths and you can improve your weaknesses. And so I was able to, like. So I was like talking with this one guy, and we're kind of working through some stuff, and it was a great conversation. We're done. And we were walking away and he said, you know, I'm. I'm not a religious person. And he goes, and I, I know you are from some of the things that you said. He goes, but, you know, I have the Discipline equals freedom field manual on my nightstand as like my Bible. And he goes, I don't mean that in a negative way towards you, but, you know, that's kind of my resource. And I said, I was like, I'm not a religious person either. And he looked at me and I was like, I just have a relationship with God and I love Jesus. And he just smiled because I don't think he was expecting that.
- [31:10]
B
Yeah.
- [31:11]
A
And he goes, that's fair.
- [31:13]
B
Yeah.
- [31:14]
A
And so anyways, we, we keep talking and, And I mean, we're done. Like, we're done talking. Like, we're literally headed to the elevators. And I could tell there's some more you want to talk about, but, you know, I'm not gonna pry. Yeah. And we're walking and he kind of starts a conversation and we're talking about some stuff. And then all of a sudden he goes, you know, I didn't plan on sharing this. I said, well, you don't have to. He goes, I. But I feel like I need to. I said, okay, so we start talking through some stuff, and I'm not going to go through the details of any of this stuff, but it was good because he was able to just, you could tell he needed to talk, he needed to get the stuff off his chest. And he was like, sharing a few things with me. And it was cool because as we started opening up some stuff, he goes, you know, I, you know, I've been in counseling and therapy for a very long time, and, you know, I was wanting to do some, like, ketamine therapy, but, you know, I had to be through a psychologist and not a therapist or what. I might be switching those up. Right. But he was like. So I was like, trying to go through all the, like, the different avenues, like, get this prescribed to me. And, you know, I finally got prescribed with that. I had adhd. And he goes, it was great because I always knew that I had it, and I just wanted that diagnosis so I could pick, you know, treatments that I wanted, if I wanted. He goes, and then I found out that I was diagnosed with ctsd, which is chronic ptsd. And, you know, he's like, talking through all these things, and he goes, you know, I was going to go get a second opinion to kind of see, like, if these things are true. He goes, but, man, like, the shoe fits. You know, the shoe fits. So, you know, it's what I have. And I sat there and I was just kind of thinking about it, and I'm, like, praying on the inside. Like, I don't want to say the wrong thing. Like, he's opening up. I'm trying to balance. Like, hey, this is Echelon front thing. This is not, like a ministry thing. And I just. I just asked him, I said, hey, does a shoe fit because it fits or do you want it to fit? And he just starts crying. And I was like, hey, I don't know what's happened in your past that you have, you know, chronic PTSD from. I said, but one thing I've learned, doing what I do at Echelon Front, that's a very real leadership trait and strength is forgiveness. And I said, I don't know what happened. I'm not here to judge. And to be honest, like, I don't care if you share anything with me. Like, you don't need to share anything with me, but I will encourage you if you can actually forgive these people in your life, that forgiveness is for your healing. It's not for them. It's for you. I said, because you're carrying a burden that you don't need to carry. And he just starts, like, crying again. And I said, see, me just mentioning that, like, has you crying, and that tells me that you are caring way more than you should. I said, you know, you shared with me that a relationship that you had just ended a week and a half ago, that you weren't going to come to this training because you said that you were physically and mentally and spiritually taxed out. I was like, that's because you're carrying all these things that you shouldn't carry. And if you continue carrying these things, you'll never actually be able to give back to the people in your life that actually need you. And he was just like, man, I'm so sorry for crying. I'm like, dude, there's nothing wrong with crying. I was like, dude, when I work through stuff. It happens. It's not a big deal. I said, I promise you, I'm not judging at all. I said, it just confirms some of the things I had on my, on my mind as we're talking. And I said, and also, when you forgive somebody, it doesn't mean that you need to let them back in close to your life. You can still set healthy boundaries. But if you don't forgive them, you're always going to carry this burden. And as long as you keep carrying this burden, your capacity as a human, as a leader and as a man will be maxed out. I said, now we all have different capacities, and it's not fair to compare your capacity to mine or me to somebody else. I said, now, can your capacities grow? Yes, we can all increase our capacities, but it's a slow grow. It's like if I want to put on muscle mass, is it going to happen quickly? And he just laughs. He goes, no. I said, if I wanted to increase my lung capacity and VO2 max, is that going to happen within a week? He goes, no, it's going to take time. I said, it's the same thing with your capacities. It's going to take time. I said, but if you want an instant improvement to what you're capable of doing and caring and giving, you've got to let go of these burdens. You've got to let go of them. And I said, you know, I've been through a lot of just things in war. I've seen a lot of things. I've lost best friends and teammates and just seen just messed up things. I said, I don't have PTSD anymore. I absolutely did for sure and forever. I always just thought I didn't have it or it wasn't like a big deal. I said, but I don't have PTSD anymore because I've given all of those things up. The connections that I had to these things. I completely surrendered. Like, I gave it up. They don't have power over me. They don't have control. I don't carry that burden of what was done, what I've seen all those things. I don't like forgiveness from things that happened to me or whatever. I was like, I don't carry that. And I was like, because I don't carry those things, I don't have PTSD anymore. And I said, the PTSD that you have is real because of these things that you shared with me. And again, I'm not going to share these details that he shared with me. I said, but what you shared with me. That's a real thing. I said, but you have to forgive those people. And I said, and you know who else you need to forgive? And he's just, like, sitting there, and he's like, I don't know. He's like, I've listed off all the people I told you about. I said, you, You. And when I said him, like, he just started crying again. I said, you have to forgive yourself, because what you experienced wasn't fair. It wasn't your fault, but you've carried that burden because you felt like you should have been able to do something different, and you didn't. And that's not fair to you. And as long as you continue to carry these things, you're probably never going to have the relationship that you want. They're always going to fall apart, and you're going to be maxed out on what you can do in business, in life. I can't make you do these things. I was like, that's. That's your choice. I said, whether you do it tonight when you go up to your hotel room, or you do it tomorrow or next week or maybe slowly over time. I said, it's your call. I said, but I can tell you from my personal experience, every time I've forgiven somebody else or myself, it gave me a little more freedom. And it's the whole discipline equals freedom thing that we talk about. Echelon front. You have to be disciplined with these things. I was like, otherwise, you're going to just keep carrying this burden. And it's just. It's just not fair. Unforgiveness will hinder you as a human, and it has to be true. Forgiveness, like, when you forgive somebody, it's done. Like, you don't bring it back up. You don't talk about it again. You don't use it against them. You don't use it against yourself. It's true forgiveness. Like, okay, cool. And if something flares back up, they're like, cool, you know what? I don't care. Like, I don't care because I'm. I'm past that. Like, you really have to turn away from it. And it was cool to see his posture change. Like, And I. He. You could tell he kind of felt like, oh, this is something I can do. Because he recognized it's what he needed to do because he had tried all these other things. And it was. It was. It was really cool because afterwards, like, he gave me a hug and he goes, you know, you've unpacked more in 30 minutes. Than years of counseling has. He goes, I don't know how you did what you did. I said, well, I was just able to give you a perspective that I've had. It's just a different perspective that somebody wasn't willing to share with you. And I said, oh, man, I'll see you tomorrow morning. He goes, you will see me tomorrow morning. And one of the things as we're walking off, he goes, you know, I was like, driving off the cliff, and I don't want to. I said, well, then you know what to do. Course. Correct. Yeah. Don't drive off the cliff.
- [39:54]
B
Ten and two, baby.
- [39:55]
A
Make a turn on the wheel. Like, literally make a turn.
- [39:57]
B
Yeah.
- [39:57]
A
Adjust course. And then the next day, we were able to, you know, start training, Kicks off the training. And, you know, I wanted to go up to him like, hey, man, how are you? But, you know, it's like, I'm just kind of watching, dude. He was walking different. You could tell, like, you know, there was a difference in his posture, his smile, everything. And he comes up to me as this big old smile. I was like, hey, how'd last night go? And he just looks at me and he goes, I did it. He goes, I forgave all those people. And I finally was able to forgive myself. I was like, well, I can tell the difference in your eyes. You just. You look lighter. You feel lighter. He goes, I've never felt like this before.
- [40:39]
B
Yeah.
- [40:40]
A
I was like, man, I'm really proud of you. He goes, I still don't know how you did that. I'm like, you do, and I'll just leave it at that. And it was just, like, cool just for him to, like, experience, like, hey, this is a leadership trait.
- [40:53]
B
Yeah.
- [40:54]
A
Because if you're a leader that can't forgive, you're going to hinder your abilities to actually lead because that unforgiveness blinds us. And, you know, it was cool. And then we had, you know, we talked about forgiveness a few times in the training of just like, hey, as leaders, like, we can't hold on to these grudges because there is people that were pissed off off at other leaders and runs. Oh, for sure. And it was, you know, and so as we're hitting about forgiveness, it wasn't just this guy I was talking about. Like, there's. Trust me, multiple people need to hear this. And I shared a story about, you know, and I gave an example of forgiveness, and I was like, hey, I don't know. Who needs to hear it? But hey, boom. You know, in a debrief you know, shared example why forgiveness is important as a leader. And then we broke for lunch, dude. I had, I'm not exaggerating, like a quarter of the attendees, as they're walking by, they're like, I needed to hear that, I need to hear that. They're like, thank you, thank you. And I was like, hey, I'm just glad you guys are here. And, you know, it's cool. One of the things that we say at Echelon Front is detachment's a superpower. And one of the attendees, because of just hearing us talk about forgiveness, whatever reflections he did on his own with that information, he gave his takeaways. And he said, you know, the most important takeaway I'm taking is forgiveness is the second superpower as a leader. And I was like, dang, bro, that's good. I was like, I'm going to steal that, but I'm going to give you credit, but I'm stealing that. For sure, for sure. And, you know, everybody was like, you know, give them a big applause and everything. And it was cool just to see that progression and growth of this group because of the hard stress induced training we do at Echelon Front. But more importantly, it was because of their willingness to be humble, to reflect and want to make the changes. So pretty, pretty awesome, pretty cool thing, you know, it's crazy is like, you know, we always say there's no coincidences, right? The next day I'm on Instagram and I'm like, going through some of my stories and I see Dakota Meyer posted a story. So usually I don't, like, get sucked into, like, all the stories, but if Dakota Meyer posts, I'm like, I want to see. And he said, you know, kids like, hey, ask me questions. You know, has all these awesome people asking different questions.
- [43:10]
B
Yeah.
- [43:10]
A
And one of the questions is like, do you still have ptsd? And he said, no, because I gave. I gave up. I gave up all those things connected to it, which is really cool. Like, literally the next day, him saying that. So, I mean, and if you're talking about anybody that could carry PTSD for the rest of their life is Dakota Meyer.
- [43:32]
B
Yeah.
- [43:33]
A
And for him to recognize. No, I. I gave those things up that connected me to ptsd. Like, true surrender, give it up. It has no power over me. I'm not connected to those things, man. That's just. To me, that's unreal. So, yeah, good, good couple days of training. Any other last thoughts on your end before we close this up?
- [43:59]
B
Yeah, you know, the, the thing and I'm. I'm trying to look it up. The. There's a way that it's said, and I'm going to butcher it. But essentially it's just that, like, resentment only hurts. You're like, as you're carrying it around, it. It only hurts you.
- [44:12]
A
I don't think you butchered anything. Because even if that is butchered, that's what it should be. Because guess what? That's simple, clear and concise.
- [44:18]
B
We just renamed. We just redid it.
- [44:20]
A
Yeah, Resentment only hurts. You write that down.
- [44:22]
B
That's it. You know, And. And when you come to a point where you can't forgive, where you're willing to let go of those grudges, then you find that you sleep a lot better at night because you're not spending all of that time plotting what you should have, could have, would have said, what you will the next time you see what that vengeance is going to look like, what that one thing is. And so you know what? I'm going to. I'm going to have sweet dreams, just. Just like we always asked for when we were kids. Right. And. And maybe no dreams at all is the best dream to have, you know? So, yeah, that's it, man. That the resentment only hurts you. And if you want to. To get a little bit of insight into what somebody like Dakota was going through, I think into the Fire is the name of his book.
- [45:03]
A
Yeah.
- [45:03]
B
And it. He did it with. I think with Bing west is who helped him write it. It's absolutely phenomenal in telling that story. And one of those that like, hey, if this guy can do it, then I have no excuse.
- [45:19]
A
And I've also. I've met people over the years that have had horrific things done to them, and I'll just leave it at that because I know we have younger listeners, and if people that have had those things done to them have been able to forgive that person forgive themselves. We all can find forgiveness. Forgiveness is a choice, but I would say It's a necessity 100%. Yeah. So.
- [45:56]
B
So thank you guys for hanging out with us. Thanks for listening, for liking subscribing, for following us, for those little comments on Spotify that we've been getting. We appreciate those. And yes, BTF Tony will be contacted sometime in the near future. Because after you asked me about that, you're like, what are people on Spotify saying? I was like, they want BTF Tony. Since then, more people have said, all right, we want. All right, BTF Tony on. So, yeah, so will. That episode will air likely two weeks after we record it for editing purposes. But we'll, we'll make it happen. But thank you guys for doing that, for sharing the word on through social media and, and just by word of mouth, man, the best way to help grow this podcast, the best way to help us influence others with the leadership principles and stuff that Echelon Front does and from the things that God has been teaching us is just by telling a friend about it. So thank you very much for doing that for all of you who are in the game. If you want to join the conversation though, check us out on social media. You can find JP@jpdanelle and I am LucasPinkert on Instagram. Also P. Dennell podcast where we hook up with our friends periodically from first in Nutrition and they help us out with our hump day health hac. Jonathan and Anne, hop on. Give us a little bit of nutrition coaching to just help you stay a little bit in the game. And if you want more from them, go to first in nutrition.com jp pod. They'll give you four free weeks of some of the best nutrition coaching in the game. The reason that they're able to do that, though, is because they're following the laws of combat. They're going to the FTXs, they're going to the Musters. They've got a thing going on right now where you could win a muster ticket to muster 23 in Orlando. Because all this stuff, all the principles from Echelon Front is the foundation for their business. It's what JP teaches and it's what keeps our podcast going. So check outchlonfront. Go to echelonfront.com, see some of the stuff that they offer. They've got the online Leadership Academy. JP has mentioned the FTX. There's still a few spots for muster 23 though. They're almost all gone down.
- [47:58]
A
I think we're at like 90% sold out.
- [48:00]
B
Sunny Orlando, Florida. If you're gonna go visit someplace in December, go to Orlando. Yeah, like, why not? It's going to be beautiful. And then. Yeah, and then you can go back to whatever dreary snowy land you came from and get back after it. But they've got all that stuff. And the new book is out. The need to Lead by Dave Burke. The the third in the trilogy of the extreme ownership dichotomy, Leadership and now the need to Lead. It was cool to see that in hardcover as some people were posting their copies of it that they got at the Women's assembly this past week. So make sure that you Check them out. Also, JP and I are part of a ministry called Jesus and Jiu Jitsu. You can check us out@JesusinJujitsu USA.com we just got back. No, no, tomorrow we will be in Boston on October 11th at I believe 11am at Dideco Jiu Jitsu in Weymouth.
- [48:56]
A
Massachusetts, just south of Boston. About 45 minutes.
- [48:58]
B
Yep. So, so if you don't have anything to do tomorrow, go check them out. If you're in the Boston area or close by, go, go check out the folks down there. Hafa Formiga will be instructing. And then we have on November 1st we get, coming up, Henrique who, or Henrique who just won or just defended his UFC BJJ title is coming to do a noki instruction in November. So that's going to be pretty rad. And then once you get your jujitsu on, go to Littlecattle Co and get yourself some beef tallow because your face is jacked up because folks have been grinding it into the mat. And you say that it doesn't happen, but it does. It happens to me all the time. Oh yeah, you get a little rash.
- [49:40]
A
I got a red smashed nose from today's class.
- [49:44]
B
Yeah. And if you're in the state of Texas, you know that the mosquitoes are back out because it's that sweet spot between 80 and 95 degrees. So get that, that after sun care, that anti itch cream also from Little Cattle Co. If you want to be a wholesaler for that stuff, email amanda@amandaittlecattle.co. and then if you want to rep your own brands, go to on the Path Printing at On the Path Printing. Hit up jp, Josh, David, they can help you handle all this stuff for apparel printing so that you can make sure that you've got good brand awareness. So maybe you've got that little rash guard underneath your gi that tells everybody about your company so that you can get going. Then once you get your Jiu Jitsu, it's time to get your pugitsu. Talk to the guys over at Bruiser Arms. It's JP Laith and Jocko putting together custom gear packages and trainings. You get to go on a pretty cool little. We didn't get into it. Pretty cool little excursion.
- [50:35]
A
Yeah. We'll talk about on the next episode. But yeah, yeah. Did a half day workshop yesterday down at a client's ranch and then afterwards they set me up with the ranch manager just to go check it out. They have a thousand yard shooting range.
- [50:46]
B
All this other stuff you Accidentally ended up on an exotic animal hunt.
- [50:50]
A
Yeah, they. They fly.
- [50:51]
B
Poor thing.
- [50:52]
A
I know, I know. Must. Must be nice. Oh, wait, it was, it was. Yeah, yeah, it was really nice.
- [50:56]
B
So we'll get reviews on. On what? Hold on, I got it right here. On what oryx tastes like on the next episode.
- [51:05]
A
Yeah.
- [51:06]
B
Yeah, I'm. I'm stoked about that.
- [51:07]
A
Sinhar.
- [51:09]
B
Scimitar.
- [51:10]
A
Scimitar. Horned oryx.
- [51:11]
B
Yeah.
- [51:12]
A
Dude, it was awesome.
- [51:13]
B
Yeah, you can, you can tell us what.
- [51:14]
A
You know. It's funny. It's like me and the guy were talking about how we're gonna be rolling out some like, training at Bruiser Arms because I really enjoy training. You know, Bruiser Arms is for weapons packages and. But we're also gonna be rolling out training and the guy, super nice guy. I mean, this guy was awesome. Great human. And he's talking about, you know, when he takes you out hunting, you know, this, the stress of shooting. People get really stressed out. Elevated heart rates and all this stuff. I'm just like, okay, just kind of, you know, whatever.
- [51:39]
B
Are you familiar with anything, you ever heard about any of this stuff happening?
- [51:42]
A
Yeah, that's why I told him stress induced training is so important, so that's. You can overcome it. And anyway, so we come up on this animal. I'm like, dang, that's awesome. And he literally hands me his rifle. Nice rifle suppressed. Good, good optics. And he goes, shoot it. I said, is your zero, is it 100 yards there? He goes, yeah. I'm like, all right, cool. I scoped the animal. And then I'm like, hey, where do I shoot it? Because the vitals change on different animals. And he explains to me with that. And I kind of point on his body. He goes, yeah, right there. And I'm like, cool. I get on the gun. I'm like.
- [52:14]
B
And then find out what happens on the next episode of the JP Dental podcast. Also, I think some good stress induced training would be to. My kids were given one of those little like clapper things from the dollar store. Yeah, I, I think a hundred percent. What we'll do for the next, the next beta test of our bruise arms training is just let my kids run around with clappers on the range behind all these people who are shooting.
- [52:38]
A
Let's do it.
- [52:39]
B
Stress induced. And a big thanks as always to the folks over at Origin and Jocko Fuel who keep our podcast closed and, and recovering. So use code JPPOD20, it'll save you 20 on absolutely everything at Jocko Store. You can check out some of the new lines of supplements that they've got coming out, and some of the the seasonal protein powders that are coming down the pike. They've got the pumpkin spice. And then coming up, you know, Christmas is coming. We're probably gonna see the gingerbread man come back on some stuff, so make sure that you get in on all that stuff. And jp, you got any final thoughts, bro?
- [53:15]
A
Yeah, Just to reiterate something I said earlier and just add a little bit to it, forgiveness is a choice, but it is a necessity for your growth. But that choice is yours, just like it is in all things in life. So I hope this episode has been a reminder to go do the work that's needed to put in the effort to build your legacy and to never settle. This has been the JP to All podcast episode 1 07.