The SEAL Rule That Saved Missions | Law of Combat #2: Simple | JP Dinnell Podcast 103

Summary

Podcast Summary: JP Dinnell Podcast Ep. 103

Episode Title: The SEAL Rule That Saved Missions | Law of Combat #2: Simple
Hosts: JP Dinnell, Lucas Pinckard
Release Date: September 12, 2025

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Overview:

Episode 103 of the JP Dinnell Podcast dives deeply into the second "Law of Combat" as described by the SEAL Team leadership—Simple. Drawing from JP’s extensive SEAL experience and present-day leadership instruction at Echelon Front, the discussion centers on why simplicity in communication is critical for mission success, both in combat and in everyday life and business. JP and Lucas examine practical tools, real-world examples, and strategies for ensuring clarity, alignment, and organizational victory through keeping things simple, clear, and concise.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Importance of Simplicity in Communication

• Simplicity is essential for effective execution—both in combat and business. If instructions or missions aren’t simple enough to understand, they won’t be executed properly.
• The SEAL Teams’ success hinged repeatedly on being “simple, clear, and concise” in communication, especially under stressful and chaotic conditions.

Quote:
"The second law of combat simple is a very important law of combat that helps you build upon cover and move... Without Cover Move, which is relationships, then everything falls apart."
— JP Dinnell [04:10]

• Communication is multi-layered: it's not just about giving orders, but ensuring genuine alignment up, down, and across the team.
• Simple communication enhances relationships, builds trust, and enables fast adaptation.

2. Active Listening and the "Readback" Tool

• Active listening is a vital (but often overlooked) aspect of keeping things simple.
• The SEAL Teams—and now Echelon Front—employ the “readback”: after giving instructions, team members repeat back what they understood. This ensures mutual clarity and invites alignment.
• JP shares that implementing readback in business settings can save immense time, money, and frustration, citing a case where it saved a construction client hundreds of thousands in rework costs [33:31].

Quote:
"The goal of you communicating to somebody is for you both... as a team to win."
— JP Dinnell [31:06]

3. Application beyond the Military: Business, Family, and Relationships

• The principles that work in the SEAL Teams are universal.
• In business: implement "cover and move" meetings—where teams share their needs, shortfalls, and offer to help each other.
• In family: practice concise communication with spouses and kids to foster alignment and support, avoid confusion, and build a “one team, one fight” approach at home.
• JP highlights that the responsibility for clear communication always rests with the communicator, not the receiver.

Quote:
"This is on you. This is not on the other person. To communicate in a simple, clear, and concise manner."
— JP Dinnell [44:03]

4. Challenges of Over-Communication and the Dangers of TMI (Too Much Information)

• TMI muddles the message, creates confusion, and can derail even well-functioning teams.
• In a crisis or combat, only the minimum necessary information should be given. Mission clarity always trumps the urge to “explain everything.”

Quote:
"What is the minimal amount required to communicate? And whatever you think it is, try to break it down from there even more."
— JP Dinnell [20:41]

5. How Simplicity Evolves with Experience and Chain of Command

• While the principle of simplicity stays the same, the amount of detail may differ depending on the experience of the person and their position in the chain of command.
• Simplicity is about effectiveness, not about dumbing things down.
• With new team members or those less experienced, you may need to show and break things down further. With seasoned members, brevity may suffice.

6. Practical Examples from the SEAL Teams and Teaching

• JP shares combat experiences in Ramadi, highlighting how short, direct commands and instant readbacks could mean the difference between mission success and failure [19:12].
• As a shooting instructor, JP learned to break down instructions to avoid even seemingly obvious mistakes by visualizing what simple really looks like.
• In church and preaching, the discipline of delivering a message simply and not cramming in unnecessary information becomes critical for retention and action [22:38].

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Alignment vs. Over-Alignment:
  "Have you ever had too much alignment with somebody that it caused a problem?"
  — JP Dinnell [06:10]
• "Discipline equals freedom" in action:
  "We were very disciplined in our training, and that gave us freedom on the battlefield."
  — JP Dinnell [19:12]
• On universal application:
  "Leadership is a skill set. Listening is a skill set. Communication is a skill set... All of these things can be learned and improved."
  — JP Dinnell [06:16]
• On Saving Missions and Money:
  "That reback saved us a couple hundred thousand dollars. Thank you."
  — JP Dinnell quoting a client [33:31]
• On Family Application:
  "One team, one fight, babe. Like, let's work through this together."
  — JP Dinnell [44:50]

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Timed Breakdown of Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | Highlights | |:-------------:|--------------------------------------------------|--------------------------------------------------------| | 04:10 | Why "Simple" is Second Law of Combat | Link to relationships and effectiveness | | 08:15 | Simple Communication and Cover & Move | How simple communication supports teamwork | | 10:31 | SEAL Muster Meetings & Cover & Move Meetings | Practical application in SEAL Teams and business | | 13:35 | Readback Tool: What It Is and How to Use It | Preventing costly misunderstandings | | 19:12 | Combat Example: Simplicity in a Gunfight | Real-world application of simple, direct communication | | 22:38 | Preaching Exercise for Simplicity | Translating lessons to public speaking | | 30:54 | Teaching Marksmanship: Avoiding Assumptions | Adjusting instructions for clarity | | 33:31 | Business Impact: Readback Saves Hundreds of K | Direct testimonial from a corporate client | | 36:40 | Simplicity Up & Down Chain of Command | Tailoring communication for relationships/roles | | 39:27 | When Familiarity Breeds Miscommunication | Using "readback" to restore alignment | | 42:46 | Simple Communication in Parenting and Marriage | Family-specific insights | | 44:03 | Ultimate Ownership of Communication | The burden of clarity is yours |

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Practical Takeaways

• Always Strive for Simple: Whether giving instructions, leading meetings, or managing relationships, clarity and brevity are the most dependable tools for achieving alignment and success.
• Leverage the Readback: Ask others to repeat back instructions to ensure real understanding. Communicate your intentions to avoid making team members feel called out.
• Adapt Simplicity to Experience: Break things down further for new or external partners; one word may suffice for longtime teammates.
• Minimize TMI: Resist the urge to over-explain—focus on what's necessary for execution.
• Make Alignment Your North Star: The goal of communication is shared understanding and coordinated action; everything else is secondary.
• Own the Message: If a message is misunderstood, it’s on the communicator, not the recipient. Take responsibility and be proactive in seeking feedback.

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Episode Tone and Style

Friendly, energetic, practical, and candid—filled with JP’s hard-won wisdom, real-life narratives, and actionable advice. The conversation is approachable, occasionally humorous, and always oriented toward empowering the audience to lead and win in all aspects of life.

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Final Message

"Communication needs to be simple, clear and concise. And it's on you. It's always on you and it needs to be on you. So just be intentional with your communication. It's a skill set. It's something that we all need to work on, to develop, to be more efficient, to be more effective. So that at the end of the day, we and our families, our loved ones and our teams can go out there and win."
— JP Dinnell [49:05]

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Recommended Next Episodes: Watch for breakdowns of the remaining Laws of Combat, as requested by podcast listeners.

Transcript

[A]

Good morning. This is the JP Denall podcast, episode 103. I am JP Donal. As always, I have Lucas with me. What's up, buddy?

[B]

What's going on, man?

[A]

Dude, last week's episode.

[B]

Oh, with Roman. Yeah. Unreal. What a freaking unit too. Yeah, just one awesome thing after another.

[A]

Yeah, man. His mindsets for just life and business and Jiu Jitsu. He is well above what most night. What most 29 year olds are thinking in regards to life most. You know, I remember, I mean, I was 29, I was starting that sales job, I was out at a family, you know, and so I was forced to be in a different mindset. Not saying that in a bad way, like it was a great thing. Wife, kids, family. Like, come on, man, that's the dream. But you know, he's. He's got a girlfriend.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. He's got to be. He's got to be thinking about all of those things, you know. But so where, where I was then, I had just come back from the mission field. I had started the gig here at this church and was kind of trying to figure out what the future was going to hold, but had no clue what, you know, long term plans and things were going to be. I certainly wasn't building a business or anything, at least not in my own eyes at that point.

[A]

Yeah. And what's crazy also is like, him as an athlete, high level athlete, just phenom and doing obviously very well in Jiu Jitsu, has the potential to do incredible things in Jiu Jitsu, especially because of his physical capabilities. You can tell his IQ is very high. Yeah, very, very, very high. For sure. So, yes, he's physically capable, he has a high iq. He has the understanding of how to apply the knowledge of what he's learning in Jiu Jitsu. And now he's training under John Danaher and Gordon Ryan. Like, that's a, that's a dream for.

[B]

It's pretty rad.

[A]

Jiu Jitsu practitioners that want to compete in no Gi Jiu Jitsu at a high level. Yeah, he's got it. And he's not sure what Jiu Jitsu is going to come about next because his priority right now is building his business. And I think that's really cool. Like I said last week, a little. The selfish side of me is like, man, I want to watch him compete at a high level because I think it would be fun to watch and it would be a lot to learn. You can learn a lot from him. But I think he also is understanding, like hey, you know, he's in a season of his life where if he can capture this time and be disciplined with his time, he can, he can do some good things. I also liked how he communicated. It was very simple, clear and concise. His ability to communicate was, I thought, very high level. And I'm willing to bet his clients that he coaches are the are on the receiving end of that benefit to him being able to communicate.

[B]

That would be something I'd be super appreciative of, especially in like an online coach.

[A]

Yeah. You know, my buddy Justin, who now works Right. Professional on front, who used to do coaching for man and I and you know, started 360 Fitness. That was what made me absolutely love what he does, you know, and then if you look at Jason Kleepa's app that I have and I follow some of those workouts, it's very simple, clear and concise. Like, hey, this is what you have access to, this is what you do. And there's a lot of different options. It's the same thing that Jonathan and Ann do with first in nutrition. Their coaching is very simple, clear and concise. You know, and that's why at, you know, Jocko and Leif, you know, when they wrote Extreme Ownership, they included the laws of combat. You know, it could have been a bunch of different war stories and it could have been a lot of cool stories, but they knew that they had to provide value based off of what they were already teaching. And what they were teaching was based off of similar briefs to what Jocko and Leif were giving to the junior officers, which was based around these leadership principles that Jocko created. We, we now call them the laws of combat. But they weren't call the laws of combat back then. It was just a Jocko brief. And then, you know, Leif, when he was teaching the junior officers how to lead, was incorporating those things. And you know, the second law of combat is simple. I know we've talked about COVID Move. We've talked, actually talked about all of the laws of combat briefly over the times. And we've had some people ask us to dive deeper into it. And I know we talked about COVID Move, but you know, the second law of combat simple is, is a very important law of combat that helps you build upon cover and move and they're, they're in order for a reason. You know, without Cover Move, which is relationships, then everything falls apart.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

But once you have this opportunity to build relationships, your communication has to be effective. Your ability to lead, your communication has to be Effective. Your ability to follow your communication. And, you know, the. The communication you receive needs to be simple, clear and concise, but also when you're trying to get alignment and clarity, you need to be able to communicate in a manner that's simple, clear and concise. You know, and a legitimate skill set that we talk about is active listening.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

The ability to listen. And that's a part of the second law combat, which is simple because in order for me to be able to communicate and. Or go execute based off of conversation we had or a brief that you're giving me or a layout or the plan of the day, I have to be able to listen, process, break it down, and then be able to go execute. Right.

[B]

100%. And, you know, that's one of the things I think that often gets overlooked is that simple is not just about giving orders. It's about communication across the board.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You know, because in a training setting, there's nothing worse than knowing that, like, hey, I've got an hour with my personal trainer and they spend 45 minutes trying to explain something to you and waste your time and money because they chose to tell an irrelevant story or. Or to make it their social time when you really needed. That was the time you had allotted and you had paid for to get some good instruction to help you be better.

[A]

Yeah. And then also like, okay, you're married, I'm married. It's really important that we're able to communicate with our spouses in a simple, clear and concise manner.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because at the end of the day, what do you want? You want alignment? Have you ever had too much alignment with somebody that it caused a problem?

[B]

No.

[A]

It's usually lack of alignment that causes problems.

[B]

Yup.

[A]

So, you know, that's something that we have to think about and we have to be intentional. Everything that we teach at Echelon Front is a skill set. Leadership is a skill set. Listening is a skill set. Communication is a skill set. Detaching from emotions is a skill set. Building relationships is a skill set. Empowering the people around you is a skill set. Being empowered and being able to execute with confidence is a skill set. Taking ownership is a skill set. Being default aggressive is a skill set. Understanding how to implement discipline upon yourself, to give you freedom is a discipline. Is. Is a skill set. The act of being humble is a skill set because it's something that you can learn to do and you can continuously get better at doing. The ability to innovate and adapt and think differently and open up your mind. That's a skill set as well. And so what we have to be able to do is if we're trying to improve our ability to lead, we have to be more open minded. We have to listen to the people around us. We have to be intentional with our communication. And that's why simple is the second law of combat. I know we've gotten some questions around these things. Is there any questions that you have that you're thinking about that you want us to dive into?

[B]

Well, you know, the thing was on episode 100 we said, hey, listen, we want this podcast to be what you guys want it to be. We were asked by a few people, hey, let's go over the laws of combat. We did covered move a few weeks ago and so now we're into this when, when we think about s1mple in particular, as it's the first like supportive law of combat to the first law of combat being cover and move. How does communication affect your ability to cover and move? Because cover and move is the intention to build relationships and to do things to make sure that you're keeping everybody elevated across the board that everybody's able to kind of do the tasks that they need to do. How much does simple communication play a role in the effectiveness of COVID and move?

[A]

I mean, it's absolutely paramount. Like if I don't have movement, good, simple, clear and concise communication, I'm not going to be able to build a relationship. I'm not going to be able to actually do things that you need help with because one, I'm not going to not going to be listening properly. I'm not going to communicate properly. And also, if you think about it in regards to cover move, how are you able? How are you supposed to help me if I don't communicate to you in an effective manner as to what I need and why I need it and how it's important and how it affects the mission. If I cannot communicate to other people what I have going on, what I need, why it's important, how it impacts the mission positively and negatively if we do or don't do certain things, if I can't do those things, then what's the likelihood that people are just going to know what I need and just go do those things?

[B]

It's zero. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And so we have to be intentional with communicating to people in regards to what we have going on. One of the things I love that we did in the SEAL teams was, you know, they had the morning muster meeting up, right? It's a gathering of the troops that's what muster means. And so our leadership would get together and sometimes it would be a whole muster of like the whole group, or sometimes it might just be the leadership or it might just be a certain group. You know, it just always changed. But the, the intent behind meeting up every single day was, hey, what's going on? What do you guys need help with? Yeah, and that is so important. You know, we have a handful of clients now, you know, Groundworks, one of our longest clients that we've been working with at Echelon Front. They're a basement and foundational repair company nationwide that we do a good amount of FTX is the field training exercises that we run Echelon Front with. They, they implement a thing called cover and move meetings where once a week there, I believe it's on Mondays, they have the. The meeting is just about COVID and move, what's going on and what do you need help with? So it's an opportunity for you to share. Okay, hey, here's what we're working on. Here's where I'm short, or hey, you know, here's what we're working on. Hey, we're ahead of schedule and I have extra people who need something. I think it's just. That's a culture.

[B]

That's cool, man.

[A]

That is really cool. That's what we would do in the SEAL teams, because there's times that my leadership would come back from that meeting and they would say, hey, guys, you know, so and so in land warfare, his wife is going into labor early. He's going to miss this next land warfare trip. They're going to be down an instructor with this quals. Are any of you guys capable of covering down on that? And guys like, yep, yep, yep, or no, hey, sorry, I can't. Or, you know, be like, hey, we have an overlap of this trip. You know, we're not going to be able to cover down the first two weeks, but hey, someone from mobility is going to be able to cover down. Is there anybody here that can go out there for the last two to three weeks? And it was just this. It was just a part of our. Yeah, it was a part of our culture of like, hey, the mission is much bigger than our little department. The mission is to train and equip our guys who go overseas to close with and destroy the enemy and come home alive. That's what we always had. And I think a lot of companies, the struggles that they have is understanding big picture, what are you trying to do? What's the mission? And if we can understand what that mission is and big picture, what we're trying to do, and then understand cover, move, understand one team, one fight mentality. Then it helps us be more concise with our communication because we want alignment. You want to win, you want your teammates to win. You want your leadership to win. You want to win for your leadership. And the only way to do that is through alignment. There you have to have this understanding of what are you trying to accomplish. Why is it so important? And we have to be simple, clear, and concise with our communication so that we can get those things done. And something. I mean, obviously, the bigger, stronger, longer relationship that you have with somebody, these things are gonna just come a little bit easier.

[B]

Right?

[A]

You know, the conversations that you and I have are much easier and healthier and more effective than when we first met because we didn't know each other, and it was just basic communication. And, you know, I think we were putting a group text from Isaac beginning, and it was, like, disastrous. No, it wasn't.

[B]

No. I mean, it's like it was just a bunch of guys trying to get to know each other over group text.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And, you know, and so, you know, you have that. Until now, it's like, okay, cool, we have conversations. You know what I'm thinking. I know what you're thinking. You know, I've walked in sometimes, and you just read my body language and, you know, you know, you know what's going on, you know, whether it's good or bad. And, you know, I know the same with you. And so as those relationships are built and get stronger, communication does and can get easier. Doesn't always. I think it can get easier and more efficient and more effective if you're intentional with your actual communication and building that relationship. But this is something that you can. You can start doing right away to achieve alignment. You know, one of the things that we teaching the SEAL teams and we teach at Echelon Front is a tool called the readback. And the reback is an opportunity for us to get alignment after a conversation, a meeting, a brief, whatever it is. And, you know, this is something we would do, and it was a part of our culture in the SEAL team, so we just knew that it was going to happen. One of the things that I tell clients when I'm working with them at Echelon Front, if you're going to implement a reback for the first time, you should. You should tell your people before you do it, because you don't want to just get done with the Conversation and be like, hey, Lucas, I just want to make sure my communication was clear and concise. I want to make sure we're on the same page and I understand what you're going to do so I can support you and the team. Hey, could you brief back to me what we just talked about and what you're going to be doing if I do that afterwards, even though my intent is pure, and I want you and I to have alignment, and I want to make sure my communication was good, and I want to make sure I'm supporting you. Is there a small percentage chance still that you think I did that to see if you're paying attention and listening.

[B]

Bro, I think it's more than a small percentage chance. Like, they. They totally feel like they were called out.

[A]

Okay. Does that help or hinder the relationship?

[B]

It hurts.

[A]

Yeah. So that's a withdrawal, not a deposit.

[B]

100%.

[A]

Okay. So. But if I told you ahead of time, hey, Lucas, I need your help. I've been trying to work on my communication to be more simple, clear, and concise. When we get done with today's brief, I'm going to call on you and a few people to brief back their portion of the plan, what they're doing, how they're doing it, so that I can make sure my communication is clear and so I can have understanding how to support you. So if you have any questions, feel free to ask questions. If you want to go grab a notebook to take notes, feel free. We have a few minutes before the meeting gets started, and if something doesn't make sense, just please let me know and we'll talk through it. What's the likelihood you're paying a little more attention now?

[B]

100%.

[A]

Okay. What about everybody else knowing that I might call upon a few other people?

[B]

Well, I think especially after that first one. Right. Like having the first person that you call upon, because even if everybody else in the room doesn't know what you're going to do, they're going to start taking notes off what that first guy said, rightly or wrongly, and kind of listen to your feedback to make sure that they're ready.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because even if they weren't paying attention in the meeting, as soon as somebody gets called on, now all of a sudden, they're really interested.

[A]

And if somebody wasn't, that's an extreme situation that you now need to kind of dig into a little bit more. Because if you hold told people, hey, boom, this is what we're doing, and they're still not listening and paying attention Again, this is through the lens of extreme ownership. I don't do the read back so that you listen.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I do the reback to make sure my communication is simple, clear and concise. And if I tell people I'm going to do the reback and there's still people not listening and paying attention, there's a few red flags that have popped up that I need to start digging into. One, what's my relationship like with these people? It's obviously not as good as I thought it was. Because if I had a good, solid relationship, when I'm talking and putting out a plan of the day, what's most people are going to be doing? If you have a good relationship with and they respect you.

[B]

Yeah. They're going to be taking those.

[A]

They're going to be listening. Yeah, exactly. So this also just gives me a few indicators of like, oh, okay, maybe things aren't as good as I want them. So, again, recap on simple. The big thing that we have to think about is, is it clear? Is it concise? Can they execute? Can the people go do what you need them to do based off the conversation? And, you know, there's a lot of times in combat that communication gets muddy, that it, you know, the fog of war is real and same thing in training. And we would try to simulate that in training to teach people why it's so critical to have clear communication with their people. You know, one of the things also, like when I'm teaching shooting, I need to make sure my communication is very simple, clear and concise. I have to break it down to the lowest common denominator. And that's not an insult to who I'm teaching or who I'm talking to. But I need to talk in a manner that's universal. And if I can talk in a manner that's universal, that's simple, clear and concise, then that's going to probably help me with some progression and growth.

[B]

Yeah. You know, there was an acronym that made its way around years ago, tmi.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Too much information, which is often, like when people start to give, like, way personal stuff. It's like, oh, how was your doctor's appointment? Oh, it was great. But I found out that I've got this and this infection. And he looked at this area and you're like, all right. Oh, tmi. Right. But it also applies particularly when we're looking at the laws of combat, is if we're doing cover and move and I need somebody. I'm like, hey, all right. So I'm gonna I've got to break away. I've got to go do this, and I need you to cover what I was doing. Sure, no problem. If somebody says, hey, I'm gonna break away and go do this, but I have to do it because of this reason, and I'm gonna do this, and here's my plan and blah, blah, blah. Well, now, now I've got too much information. Now, what was supposed to be simple, clear and concise, what was going to be good cover move has now become completely convoluted, and I've lost the point in all of that. And what that does is it begins to stop the machinery of everything down because now I've lost my ability to cover for you because I'm now stuck paying attention to your story and then trying to figure out if I do I play a role in this or not. And yeah, we've got a good relationship, so I'm not going to cut you off. And. And now nothing is getting done. And we've instead of done good cover and move because we weren't simple and clear and concise with our communication. Now what we've done is we've created this pocket of confusion where now nothing's going.

[A]

Yeah. One of the things that I would talk about, echelon front, is like, hey, do you guys think in the middle of a gunfight, I have time, long, drawn out, elaborate game plan?

[B]

Probably not.

[A]

No. The answer is no, not at all. And, you know, there's multiple times, like, while, you know, and you learn this in training, and then luckily you do it well in training, you can apply it in combat. Right. That's why discipline equals freedom is a very real thing. We're very disciplined in our training, and that gave us freedom on the battlefield. And, you know, there was, there was times. I remember this one time, there was multiple. I mean, this happened a lot on our deployment to Ramadi where, you know, we're patrolling on the streets, we get in a gunfight, and it's like, all right, cool. What are we going to do? You have to react to the contact and, you know, like, guys are laying down cover fire. And I just yelled across the street to one of the guys who was a soldier, right? So he's not a seal. We hadn't trained together. We. We really hadn't worked a lot together at this point. And I just, like, yelled across my cake. Keep laying down cover fire. I'm going to push that truck. I'll start shooting. You push the rock pile, and we'll, we'll move down and flank them. Very basic call. And the guy, because he's a soldier and he's trained, because he's in the military, and this is a common thing that the military trains is, you know, making sure that you have alignment. So the reback. And so he just yells across the street back to me, you know, because, you know, we have guys on either side that are still shooting, laying down cover fire, keeping those enemy fighters, you know, heads behind the walls or around the corner so they're not coming back out. And he's like, rog, I'll keep. I'll shoot. You move. You shoot, I move. And so it's like, yep, cool.

[B]

Done.

[A]

Simple, clear, and concise. And we are able to move down and flank these enemy fighters and eliminate them. And it strengthened our relationship. And so one of the things that we also have to think about is what is the lowest. I'm sorry, what is the minimal amount required to communicate? That's a challenge. We should all think about what is the minimal amount required to communicate? And whatever you think it is, try to break it down from there even more, because in our mind, we are still going to add things that we think are super important, that we think are critical. That man, if Lucas just knew what I knew, if he just knew what I knew, he would understand at a better level. He'd execute a better level. He'd be better. He'd be safer. He'd be like, we. We tell ourselves these things. And I'm sure you as a pastor, you struggle with this all the time because there are so many great things that you could add into your sermons, but if you did, you could muddy the waters. And the main point that's a part of your series could be diluted and lost. And I know you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You deal with this.

[B]

Yep. One of my really good friends trains pastors. His name is Dr. Chris Respis.

[A]

Trains pastors.

[B]

He does. He trains pastors. Yeah, he's.

[A]

Did I meet.

[B]

Wait, did I meet him? Yeah, I think so.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah. So Chris is. They have a leadership institute that they do at their church. Yes, yes. And they have. Yeah, he came out to. Yeah. One of the trainings that you did.

[A]

The last one that we did, he sat up at the top with you.

[B]

Yep, Yep. So, Chris, one of the exercises they do is that they have 12 minutes to give a sermon. They give them a text, and they have 12 minutes to get a sermon. And when the 12 minutes is up, it doesn't matter where you are. It's over. And everybody gives you the feedback of what they learned from you in those 12 minutes.

[A]

I just had to do that a few weeks ago with Argyle High School dude. One of the pastors, Pastor Steve Chestnut for Milestone, we just opened a new location in Argyle. He asked me, he's like, hey, would you come talk with the high school football team? 15 minute. And he said all the stuff he wanted me to cram into 15 minutes. And I was like, challenge accepted. Yeah, no kidding, cow. But anyways, it was cool experience.

[B]

But that in the training thing, the, the importance of knowing, like having that clock running and then, you know, at 12 minutes they shut off the mic that it is, it's over, your time's up. And now you get the feedback of like, oh, cool, you went over this. You never actually got to the point. Yeah, this is a bunch of cool information, but, you know, no, nobody's getting saved because of what you say, because you never actually got to it. And so it's. It's a pretty rough exercise, but it highlights the importance of being simple, of not cramming in all of that information. Because the truth of the matter is that most of the people one and two levels below you don't need all of the information that you had to give to the people one and two levels above you in order to make things happen that, you know, you are the keeper of all of that information for a reason. It's because you've got to work both up and down the chain of command in order to get things to work.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When I was teaching long range shooting a while ago, helping my buddy had a company, or it still does. They, they do long range shooting for hunters. And so I was going out there and helping them out. And one of the things that people get confused on, on long range shooting is when you're giving them wind holds. All right, so. So the wind is, you know, obviously it can come in at 90 degrees. There's different angles. There's a lot of different variables. I'm not dying. I'm going to really try to not dive into this.

[B]

Yeah. To be simple.

[A]

Yeah. But I really want to talk about that because I love. Yeah. Love calling wind and holds and the science behind all that stuff when it comes to shooting. But for this story, I'll keep it as minimal as I can. But we want to teach people how to compensate for the wind. So if the wind is coming from the right to the left, so you're looking down your gun, looking down your scope at the target, if the wind is blowing from the right to the left, depending on how hard and strong the wind is blowing, and depending on how long the distance is, and depending on the round that you're shooting, will vary of your hold. And so, you know, we're having to teach people how to do these things. So if the wind is coming from the right to the left, that means it's going to blow your bullet or push. I shouldn't blow. It's going to. It's. Shut up, nerd.

[B]

Sorry. To all of our listeners who just hear us blow to the microphone.

[A]

It'S going to push your round towards the left. And depending on how hard it's pushing it, depending on how long of a distance that is, it could push your round off the target. So we would say hold to the right. Most people understand that means that you, you know, hold one minute of angle to the right. Most people know that you're moving your crosshairs. So if you have a. Let's say you have a dot on the very center of that target and you're holding your crosshairs dead center, that means you want to take that part of your optic and push it to the right so that the first little hash mark on your optics, let's just say it is in one minute of angle increments.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So moa, which is min of angle, it's a measurement, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So we push the hash. So you're holding to the right. One minute of angle.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Or one mil, whatever. Okay. Some people are like, you're not talking about mils. Okay. Whatever unit of measurement you're using in your optic.

[B]

Yeah. There's imperial and then there's all the centers.

[A]

So you push, you know, I'm sorry, hold one minute and then go to the right. Most people know. Okay, so you're taking that center of the optic and you're pushing it to the right. So whatever, that first little hash mark, that's now dead center.

[B]

Okay?

[A]

Right. Not everybody knows that.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Because you know what I realized some of the shooters were doing? They're holding dead center on that first hash mark to the right. Oh, very simple. That's a very easy mistake to make if you're not used to it. And. And so what I recognize is that mistake was happening because I was like, we. How are you off target? I'm like, hey, explain to me what you just did. I think obviously I'm. I'm teaching shooting.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I'm not going to get mad, which is crazy. There are some instructors that will lose their mind on their students. And I'm like, what are you Doing, you're an idiot. And then they wonder why their business struggles. Anyways, side note. And so I would. This. That was definitely not my buddies. My buddies did. They are professional. Super. That's why I. Tony Co. Is not.

[B]

Yelling at people for missing the target.

[A]

Or my buddy Steve Aran or Greg. Like, those guys are awesome. Eric. And all those guys that taught with them that I met great humans. And so I was asking him, like, hey, so what did you do? And so I drew it up on, like, a little piece of cardboard that I grabbed from an ammo box. I said, all right, here's a target. Where did you put your optic? And they showed me. They're like. You said, hold right one minute angle. So I held the right side one minute. I was like, cool. Awesome. I was like, hey, I'm sorry about that. And I corrected it. And so since that moment on, I've always said, push your optics to the right. One minute of angle from center. Yeah, push right. And so I'll also. Even if it's for somebody, for the first, very first time, I'll show them. I'll literally show them what it looks like. Hey, you have dead center of the target, or, you know, this is a vital area of the animal that you're trying to hit. Take your optics, put the crosshairs dead center. And I want you to push that dead center crosshair to the right. One minute of angle or two minutes of angle. And I want it to be on the second hash mark from the center to the left. Right? So we have dead center. It's moving to the right slowly. You have one minute of angle, two minute of angle. Once that second minute of angle, hash mark on the left side of the center crosshair is holding where you want the bullet to impact. I want you to slowly pull the trigger. Right? And I'll walk them through it. And also, Dink, dead center hit. Beauty. It's not that complicated, but unfortunately, there are people that know how to shoot that don't know how to teach. They don't know how to communicate in a manner that's simple, clear, and concise. I have shot with some incredible shooters, like some incredible shooters that could not teach people to even come close to what they should be being able to do. And I'm not being arrogant with this, but this is a fact. When I was teaching with Steve and Greg and Eric and all these guys with their thing, we would get people. And I had every single one of my shooters, every single time do this. They are heading. They are hitting steel at A thousand yards at the end of day one.

[B]

That's awesome.

[A]

People that have never shot past 100, 200 yards before, and then we, you know, and then we have it to where they're shooting multiple targets at multiple distances, practicing their holds, overs and unders while holding wind. And so then day two, it's like, all right, cool, now you're. Now we're shooting vitals of an animal at 150 yards. Freaking easy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I still have clients that I put through the shooting that will text me after they go on these big, successful hunts, sending me pictures of their animals, like, hey, still applying what you taught us? So when we're thinking about how we're communicating, we have to ask good questions to understand the perspective of the people that we're talking to so that we can better equip them. That's the goal. The goal of you communicating to somebody is for you both. When I say you, I don't mean just you, but you as a team to win. If you're my student, I want you to win. If you're my boss, I want you to win. If you're my peer, I want you to win. If you're my spouse, I want you to win. If you're my kids, I want you to win. So how do we help people win? Well, we improve our communication, make sure it's simple, clear and concise so that they can execute and do these things in the right manner. The reback also will safely you a lot of heartache, a lot of headache. I had a client reach out, and I know we're getting ready to wrap this up, but I had a client reach out one time after a workshop, and they did. We did a half day workshop. Then it was with a big, big commercial construction company. The superintendents, they go back to their crews and one of the superintendents goes back to the crew because I challenged them. I was like, hey, you know, take what you like from the training and just talk to your people about it and say, hey, this is what I took from the training. This is what I'd like to implement. I said, you know, as we all know, knowledge is not power. The application of knowledge allows you to do powerful things. And that's what I really like. Ronan didn't say that, but that's what he said.

[B]

Yeah, that's. That's what he got.

[A]

That was his message for sure. Absolutely. And that I love the way he applied that to jiu jitsu. So I challenge leaders all the time. Like, hey, take one or two things back to your people and just implement it. Try it out. Try it out for a week, two weeks, three weeks, four weeks. If it doesn't work, text me, call me, email me. Like, we'll figure it out. I haven't had anybody ever come back to me and say, hey, the reback doesn't work. Not once. Yeah, like not once in nine years.

[B]

It does work because it works.

[A]

So anyways, this guy goes back to his crew, he rolls it out and says, hey, one of the things, you know, I'm phrasing what he said. Hey, one of the things I want to work on is my communication. I want to make sure we have alignment. When we get done with the brief today, I'm gonna have a few of you guys. And he named out a few guys, brief back to me, what you're gonna do, how you're gonna do it so we can make sure we have alignment assignment. So he sends me a message on Instagram, like, I think it was the next day. Because he said it's the other day, I'm assuming it was the next day. And he says, hey, that reback saved us a couple hundred thousand dollars. Thank you. And I replied, I'm like, dude, that's incredible. Like, can you give me a little more information? So he tells me he.

[B]

A little bit of that savings. Yeah.

[A]

Commission based now. And so he tells me that he rolled out the reback to his guys and. And they're going to start debriefing just those two things. That's all he was going to focus on. He calls on one of his foremen, who's one of his really good foreman guys, a stud to brief back what they were going to be doing. And he told me that because there's such a large group and they are very decentralized that if this foreman had a would would have moved forward with the plan that he thought he needed to be working on, it would have cost them a couple hundred thousand dollars in rework.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is crazy. And then so as I'm going on and talking with this guy and going back and forth, I'm educated on the fact that a lot of large commercial construction companies budget into their jobs hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of rework. Because these things happen, not because anybody wants to make a mistake, but they just happen.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he was able to fix it and correct it. And he apologized, he took ownership. He's like, hey man, I'm sorry, I wasn't clear on that. That's on me. We actually need to be doing boom, boom, boom. Here's why. Hey, go and write that down. Brief it back to me. Let's make sure we're on the same page with this. And this guy didn't take that as micromanagement. The guy was thankful that they did that. The guy was like writing it down. They, they had alignment, they moved forward. So this guy also reaches out to all the other superintendents and says, hey, the reback saves us this. I'm, it's a non negotiable for my crew. We're doing that and the debrief. The rest of the crews, they understand the value of it. They start implementing it as well. They get done with this big bri, this big job. They're ahead of schedule, they're under budget, their safety score improved, the culture improved. And then what a lot of these companies, which is cool, is they go off those metrics for bonuses.

[B]

Yep. I was gonna say that. Cash money.

[A]

Yeah. So now their people are getting their bonuses. What do you think that does for, for the culture and morale?

[B]

Oh, through the roof.

[A]

What do you think it does for retention in a very competitive market?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I'm staying here. You can be five more dollars an hour. Like that's cool. But I know I'm gonna hit my bonuses for the next six months.

[A]

I'm gonna jobs and you're gonna be safer. So what's the cost of that? Yeah, so if, you know, you work at a very safe company, like you're gonna, you know, you might get some offers and be like, nah, I ain't worth it. Yeah, it's not worth an extra whatever because I'm. Yeah. So these are all the things that they're calculating. And then also it helps with the recruitment. Oh no, because now these guys are talking to other guys in the industry going, man, I'm hitting my bonus. The culture here is awesome. Like I love going to work. We're safe. You know, all these things. And now people are like wanting to go work for these companies. So it's a powerful tool.

[B]

That's rad. So I've got, I got three other things that I want to touch on that have to do with simple. And we'll see what, what time allot. The first is this. How does does simple communication change up and down the chain of command? Because you know, we talked about it a second ago that the people above you need different information than the people below you do whenever you're, you're in those middle spots. So how does simple communication change up and down the chain of command?

[A]

It doesn't it's going to change on the individual. But the principle of simplifying your communication never goes out the window. That will evolve based off the relationship that you have with the person and their proficiency in doing their job. You know, I amand I will communicate to Aiden in a different manner than the girls because he's older and he has different life experiences. It's the same thing between Aiden and Hayden with talking. You know, we're like encouraging Hayden to start getting his learner's permit and all these things. And I know Josh Strasberger is working with his oldest son on learning to drive as well. And so those are different conversations than we would have with, with Aiden. You know, Aiden is just like, hey, bud, love you. Remember, drive safe. Stay off your phone. You're responsible. I'll never stop saying those things.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But I don't have to, like, walk through a checklist of things with Aiden.

[B]

When you have gas, is your insurance in your car.

[A]

I don't have to do all those things anymore. And so what we communicate will change up, down and across the chain of command, but the manner should not. It's still, what's the minimal amount required to communicate effectively?

[B]

And keyword is effectively. Yeah. And even if somebody's asking for more information, and that's one of the things, you know, people are like, well, is, you know, it's different. I can't be simple with my boss because he wants so much stuff. Be simple in the way that you communicate all of that information. Yeah, he or she may want more information, but that doesn't mean that you need to get convoluted in the way that you do it. Part of the reason your meetings with your bosses are so long is because you are giving them a bunch of extra stuff they don't need on all five of the projects they've got you working on or need you to manage. Yeah, just be simple across the board. Next, how does being simple set up prioritizing and executing?

[A]

Well, it's hard to prioritize and execute if you're confused.

[B]

Oh, man. I think that's one of the craziest things, is like, well, I can't be simple unless I know how to prioritize and execute the things. It's like, well, if you're not simple in the way you communicate, nobody's going to know how to prioritize and execute. So one law of combat feeds the other. And the last one is this. And this is a question that we've gotten a few times from some different people. And we've had sort of different ways of approaching it, but I think that it really belongs in this conversation and that is this. Maybe I've got too good of a relationship with somebody and not enough alignment. Maybe my relationship with this person has become just a little bit too familiar. And so when we're in meetings and I'm trying to simplify things, they feel like they already know what I'm going to say or that they've already been briefed about the project so they're not paying attention and now it's causing issues with my communication.

[A]

So start implementing the reback and tell them that you're going to do that and take ownership. Hey, Lucas, I know we've been working together for the last 15 years and man, it's been awesome. A one of the things I haven't done a good job at is making sure that we maintain alignment. I've made assumptions in the past that you knew what I was talking about. I didn't give you enough information. I didn't make sure that we were on the same page. So, hey, when we get done with these meetings, I'm going to start having us. I'm going to start giving us the opportunity to have a back and forth conversation afterwards to make sure that we both are in alignment with each other. So when we get done with this brief, I'm going to have you brief back to me what you heard me say to make sure I'm communicating clearly. And if you have any questions for anything that I'm putting out. Awesome. And if I have any questions for anything that you're putting out, I'm gonna, you know, ask those same questions. And when you get done with your brief, I'm gonna also brief it back to you. So is that something that we could start doing? I just want, man, I really want to fix this. This is 100% on me.

[B]

Done deal.

[A]

Cool.

[B]

And it's one of those things too. But like, especially if people in the office know that you've got a good relationship with this person and they know that, like maybe this is your go to guy or you know that if they're the one that you start with when you implement these things, everyone else will take it more seriously.

[A]

Yeah. And the other thing, I've also had people that I've had a phenomenal relationship with and they don't do this in a negative manner, but if I'm like running through a conversation or a brief or whatever, they interrupt me. And again, it's not, and it's not an intentional thing, but I've had this happen like at work before in the past at another, another organization. And I just like, finally I was like, okay, they're not doing it to be a jerk. Clearly they're not, you know. And so I started thinking about it and so what I implemented is I just asked them like, hey, can you do me a huge favor? I was like, I get distracted really easily. So I actually have the things I need to talk about written out. Let me get through the first three points and I'm going to pause and then we can talk through it and then I'll finish it off. Is that fair? So I'll do that with people at times if I just know that they're going to interrupt me. Not to be rude, but they do it because they're excited or whatever else like that. I'll just ask them like, hey, could you help me out? I get distracted easily. This is an important conversation. I just want to make sure I get my points off so that we can have a good conversation. So I'm gonna, there's three things I want to talk about really quickly and then let's open it up and then I have one thing to close it out with and then whatever you have, is that fair? And so what I'm doing is I'm taking preemptive ownership over controlling that conversation and knowing that they're excited to talk and, or they just have stuff to say. And when I've done that before, it's forced them. And I don't mean that in a bad way or a manipulation way, but it's helpful. Helped, I should say, actually it's helped them pause and listen and then we have the back and forth conversation.

[B]

Yeah. And you know, you've mentioned a couple of times how we've implemented this. Both of us at home. I cannot tell you how impactful, simple, clear and concise communication becomes when you've got kids.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And especially, you know, like in our situation right now, a three year old and an almost 18 month old and they both want mom and dad's attention and we both have things that have to get done. Not just like in order for us to do whatever we want to do, but also to feed the kids that are screaming for our attention and wanting to do stuff. Or they've just decided that they're gonna grab grips and one's got the collars and one's got the shoulders and they're just pushing each other back and forth, which I will say super excited about. Because if they each develop the game, they're working on right now, They've got the potential to. To really go a long way.

[A]

Jiu Jitsu.

[B]

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So, like, all that's great, but if we get stuck in the minutia of trying to deal with everything that we're seeing and processing all of that, you know, out loud with each other, instead of saying this, you know, dinner's about to burn. Can you take care of this? That's. That's easy. Game over. Yeah, I can drop what I'm doing. I'm at a stopping place. Go this. It's massive in the home, it's massive in business, and really, really impactful in friendships, because you can save a lot of the confusion and danger that you walk into in your relationships by being misunderstood, by being simple, clear, and concise.

[A]

And my final thoughts on this before you close it out is, this is on you. This is not on the other person. To communicate in a simple, clear, and concise manner. This is not on my wife to say, hey, I need this help. I should have a good enough relationship to recognize little red flags that, oh, she needs help. And that's one of the things I've been trying to work on, is understand when I need to be asking more questions, hey, what do you need help with? Hey, is there something I can do? You know, and just allowing my wife to have the opportunity to share things with me that maybe she didn't think about asking or talking about, or she's overwhelmed, or maybe she didn't want to put something else on my plate, and it's like, no, no. One team, one fight, babe. Like, let's work through this together.

[B]

100%.

[A]

It's on you, not on them.

[B]

Well, thank you guys for watching, for subscribing, for listening to the podcast. Today's episode was one that you asked for, and so we did it. If you want to continue to be a part of the content conversation and to help us make this podcast the best that it can be for you, go follow us on Instagram. JP is @jpdanelle. That's two N's, two L's. I'm @Lucas Pinkert and @jpdodell podcast. Shoot us a message and let us know what you want us to cover. We've got the other laws of combat coming up. Maybe we'll do the mindsets of victory. What you guys want. That's what we'll do. Also, if you're over there on Instagram, go check out our friends over at first in Nutrition. You can go to firstinnutrition.com jppod and get four free weeks of some of the best nutrition coaching on the planet where you will see Jonathan and Ann and their other coaches be simple, clear and concise and making sure that you meet your fitness and nutrition goals always. This stuff is powered by the folks over at Echelon Front. You really want to know what it means to get simple. You want to get a little deeper? Dive into that. Go check out Extreme Ownership. Go check out the Extreme Ownership Academy. Go grab the dichotomy of leadership when you realize, hey, you know what, maybe I'm not communicating as well as I thought I did. Find your balance over there in that one and go check out the newest book you can pre order now the need to Lead by Dave Burke, which wraps up that trilogy. Join us on the Extreme Ownership Academy Monday afternoon live calls if you've got some questions that are specific to your business. After we cover a topic then you'll get to hop in and ask some of those questions. I say we not because I'm one of the instructors, but because I get in on that call and have some of my questions answered. It's an awesome opportunity to get to do that. If you want Echelon Front to come and work with your organization, maybe you feel like you need some one on one coaching in this in particular. Then send an email to infochelonfront.com and after you do that, you might need a little bit of self care. So head on over to Littlecattle Co where you can get the beautiful beef tallow products that help keep you healthy. You know, Villa Ashy. Grab some of that beef tallow. Maybe you're coming towards the end of mosquito season where you're at and you need that tallow anti itch cream or you know it's time. Now that the degrees have gotten below triple digits, you're back out in the sun and you're realizing you can still get a little crispy. Get that after Sun Care. If you made the same Fair skin mistake that I did on Labor Day, go check that out. If you need apparel printed, go check out on the Path Printing. Shoot a message to JP or Josh to make sure that your printing or your apparel printing needs are taken care of. They've got some really cool stuff that they've done. We sold a ton of the shirts that they designed for us at Jiu Jitsu Con, the Jesus in Jiu Jitsu Pray Hard, Train Hard Church. We're a huge seller there, especially in the large XL and Double X because that's a print that looks in particularly menacing on a big man. So that was really cool. If you aren't familiar with Jesus in Jiu Jitsu, it's a ministry that JP and I both belong to. We do regular seminars where we bring in a high level Jiu Jitsu competitor, take a break for people to share their testimony, talk about the good things that Christ has done in their life. We get an awesome time of open mat after that. If that's a ministry you want to support or you want to check out the podcast that we do there or figure out when we got a seminar coming to your area, go to jesusandjujitsu USA.com and then once you get your Jiu Jitsu, now it's time to get your pew Jitsu on. Go down and check Outruiser Arms where they put together custom gear packages. It's jp, it's Leif, it's Jocko putting together the packages that they use to to protect our country and maybe the same ones they use to protect their home. You can get custom gear packages and custom training from the folks over at Bruiser Arms. And that wraps us up with the stuff that is most personal to us because it's the stuff that's closest to our bodies. It's the people over at Origin and Jocko Fuel, the stuff that we put on us and in us it is the cleanest supplements in the game. If you go to jockofuel.com no jockofuel.com and then use code JP POT20, you'll save 20% on all your purchases over at Jocko Fuel and then go check out the stuff that the guys over at Origin Main are doing. It's absolutely incredible. It's an all American supply chain and supply line support. The red, white and blue and big. Thanks to Amanda and Pete for making that happen. And not only putting on the the best Jiu Jitsu camp in the game with Emerging Camp, but also for bringing manufacturing back to the a United States when nobody thought they could do it. It's pretty awesome. I'm looking forward to getting Pete on soon.

[A]

Yeah, it's gonna be good. So reiterate a few things. Communication needs to be simple, clear and concise. And it's on you. It's always on you and it needs to be on you. So just be intentional with your communication. It's a skill set. It's something that we all need to work on, to develop, to be more efficient, to be more effective. So that at the end of the day, we and our families, our loved ones and our teams can go out there and win. So I hope this episode has been a reminder to go do the work that's needed, to put in the effort to build your legacy and to never settle. This has been the JP Donnell podcast, episode 103.