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JP Dinnell Podcast
Winning and Losing: Hard Truths About Leadership | JP Dinnell Podcast 073
01:03:33
In this episode of The JP Dinnell Podcast, JP and Lucas break down lessons from competition, leadership, and the power of Extreme Ownership. JP shares insights on how Jiu-Jitsu builds discipline, mental toughness, and leadership skills—even in...
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- [00:01]
A
Good morning. This is the JP Donnell podcast, episode 73. I am JP Donnell, and as always, I have Lucas with me. Man, it's been a while since we have done some Q A. Yeah, we've also. Yeah, we've also had some really good guests and episodes, so maybe do a recap of some of them.
- [00:17]
B
I'm down for that. Yeah.
- [00:18]
A
Also, we're gonna talk about the Jiu Jitsu tournament.
- [00:21]
B
Do we have to?
- [00:22]
A
Yes.
- [00:23]
B
Okay.
- [00:23]
A
Yes, we do. Well, I mean, I guess we don't.
- [00:25]
B
Have to, but it's what the people want. We got to give the people what they want.
- [00:31]
A
All right, let's do it.
- [00:32]
B
Yeah.
- [00:32]
A
How are you doing, man?
- [00:33]
B
I'm. Man, I'm good. Still a little sore because we're recording this a few days after the tournament, but other than that, I've been doing a lot of active recovery. Right. So, like, going in and just doing lightweight for, you know, 15, 20 reps, something like that, to get myself going through the motions, but not really putting too much strain on anything. The Jiu Jitsu tournament was, I think, a win overall. Had fun, didn't get hurt, and. And that's really all, I think, no matter what. I was talking to Brent today about this. He's like, bro, that's all you can ask for, like, whether you make it on the podium or not. Like, if you have fun and you didn't. You didn't get injured, then, you know, that's what it's really all about.
- [01:14]
A
So what were the week of the tournament? What were your thoughts going into it?
- [01:19]
B
But okay, so week of the tournament, I am. I'm in the 182. So I'm in Masters 2, 182 and under. And week of the tournament, I weighed in at 184 with the Gyan. I was, like, almost 187. And I thought, all right, so I've got to lose five pounds in order to get down to this with my job and the stuff that I have to do and with, like, time of year that it is and kind of some of the things, like. I know. All right, we got a couple of people who are having surgeries that are gonna want the pastoral visit, and I've got some other folks that are kind of on the verge of some things. Like, is it realistic that I can lose five pounds to get under 182, and then will I be able to the next day, wake up and feel good enough cognitively to. To preach and to do everything that I have to take care of the Next day, am I gonna be able to be disciplined enough with my meals and stuff in order to get to this point? Will I feel like garbage whenever I compete if I do, and then will I be able to do my job the next day? And so as I'm sorting through those things, Kirsten and I are talking about it, I'm kind of praying about it. I was like, you know what? The bottom line is, I know my strength because of my ineptitude at Jiu Jitsu. And we'll talk about this, right? The low level of training that I have and my low Jiu Jitsu iq. And I'm not saying those, those are just realistic things.
- [02:50]
A
Yeah.
- [02:50]
B
That the only thing that is, is going to help me get by and survive is going to be what little I know in, in defense and not being strong enough to where I'm not being thrown around. So then the next thing became, is there a greater chance of injury at me at 195 than 182 because of the strength gap? And so I talked to a couple of people that, that are close to me and they were like, listen, dude, I don't know anybody that's stronger than you at £182. I was like, okay, like, I also don't know anybody that's stronger than you at £195. So you're probably gonna be fine. Yeah. I was like, yeah, yeah. So if, if that's the only thing that I'm leaning on, then, you know, for me it was kind of the same thing. Right. And then the, so I made the adjustment and then it looks like the brackets were going to be like four and four. I was like, okay, cool, so get two matches. And you know, we made the joke that I was going to come fifth out of four. Well, a couple of days before Jiu Jitsu World League updates everything. I am not the only one who decided to change categories. And so we went from a four person weight class to a six person weight class, which completely changes the dynamic of the division. So, so that was, was kind of fun too, is kind of doing the math on that and, and checking that stuff out. So yeah, coming into it, you know, my big thing was am I, am I putting myself in a position where I can feel good going into the competition, where I can be healthy and you know, where I'm not pushing myself and, and really making the risk of if I miss weight, then there isn't the option to go into the heavier weight class. If I miss weight, then I'm Just out. And I knew I had committed to doing this competition. I committed it to doing it to you guys and also for Jesus in Jiu jitsu. So missing weight was not gonna be something that I was really gonna put at risk for me to do and then be able to fail that commitment. That said, I'm really glad that was the decision that I made, because on Monday, I had a buddy who needed a lot of help, so I was over there. Tuesday, one of my really good friends had a heart attack. Wednesday, we had another situation that just kind of popped up in the middle of the afternoon and needed some immediate attention to take care of and to do some pastoral ministry. And so if my goal was to have stayed at 182, it would have been a lot more difficult. So I'm glad I made the decision that I did.
- [05:19]
A
That's cool. That's good, man. What was your mindset like Saturday?
- [05:24]
B
Stay loose.
- [05:25]
A
Just stay loose.
- [05:25]
B
Yeah. So going into competition, that's always been my thing. I've been on stage a lot in my life. I think that the first time that I sang in front of an audience was when I was, like, five or six, and there was, like, four or 500 people there. So, like, performing has always been something that's been, as far as, like, who I am a portion of it. Right. I've given, like. I've given talks and some lectures and stuff on music, on, like, playing bass, some stuff on public speaking. And the one thing that I tell everybody is I was like, if you are looking to me to give you the. Like, this is what you have to do to overcome stage fright. Like, I'm not that guy.
- [06:08]
A
Yeah.
- [06:09]
B
I can't help you with that at all.
- [06:11]
A
I bet you actually could, potentially.
- [06:13]
B
Right. But it's. It's at the point now where, like, I. I have vivid memories of being five years old and going on stage and not being nervous about it, because I was like, no, this is just the thing I'm about to go do, and. Right. Like, so. It's. So. It's really weird.
- [06:27]
A
That's cool.
- [06:27]
B
And I know I compare it a lot to. There's a famous hitter named Ted Williams who's a Hall of Fame baseball player, and he was maybe the. The best pure hitter that's ever lived. But when he went to go manage the Texas Rangers, they were hoping that he would help with their hitting, and he couldn't because he couldn't explain to them what he did. He couldn't explain the mechanics. He just. He was such a natural hitter. That, you know, they're like, oh, what do you do? He goes, I look at the ball and I hit it with the baseball bat. I don't understand why you can't do that. And so like, he couldn't, like he was kind of a jerk about it, right? He couldn't explain the process. And I, I try not to be a jerk about it, but it's difficult for me to explain the process because there's just not much that's kind of going through my head other than like, hey, you know what? I'm, I'm just gonna stay loose. And I've put in the, the work and the time to, to perform. And so when I go out there, I'm just gonna do it. And then a lot of times, like I was talking to Jonathan Montgomery about this, like with a, with a musical performance in particular, there's so many moving pieces that, that if you don't go up there loose, you, you can get in trouble.
- [07:31]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [07:32]
B
Cause a lot of times, like when I'm playing, if I'm playing bass and I'm singing and I'm not the band director, then I'm singing a song, I'm playing the song. So I've got two parts of my brain that are working and then I've got somebody in my ear who is the band director. Even in, you know, like if you were playing in a cover band and that guy that's in your ear is going, okay, hey, we're going to go to the bridge now, all right? And you're going to transition from the 1 to the 5. And we're going to make this, this key change so that we can get into this song. The time signature is going to change. Make sure that you're paying attention to the click. And so you're hearing all of that stuff. That information is being input while I am singing and playing things that, you know, that all of that is going on. So there's a lot of that type of, you know, input, output of information that if you're too stressed out, you know, like, I'm sure you guys had it, you know, you focus too much on the radio or something else that's going on that you're not really taking everything in. Then you put yourself in a situation where you're, you're just going to fail.
- [08:26]
A
So, yeah, it takes really hard training, stress induced training to be able to teach your brain to be able to do that. And it seems like you had access to it at a very young age before that, like self induced fear was a real thing. And for you, you're like this. Wait, what? People don't do this regularly. This is. What.
- [08:47]
B
What do you mean? It makes you nervous to go do something in front of people?
- [08:49]
A
Yeah. That's really cool because you didn't. You don't know anything different?
- [08:52]
B
No, not at all.
- [08:54]
A
You know, as I was listening to you talk, it reminded me of the. The training we would do in the SEAL teams. And, you know, you really have to be intentional with teaching guys, you know, how to think, not what to think. Right. And then that means taking in multiple things at once. Like, right, I'm. I'm going into a room, and I'm clearing the corner. I'm going through my movements of like, okay, hey, you know, this. I go through the doorway, and this is. You know, they went right. I go left. Like, just being on reg site. Oh, he was supposed to go right, and he button hooked and went left. Well, we'll go left. No, like, you read and react off that guy. So it's, like, cool if he. If he screwed up for whatever reason, or maybe he didn't screw up and he actually saw that there's a barricade. And that very first person wants to have the path of least resistance because they're the first exposed, and they wanted to create that distance and move into the room and engage any unknown threats. So he button hooked. Cool. Well, why? I don't know. So as I go in, I'm looking for a reason as to why he button hooked. Processing that. And it's like, cool, there's nothing there. I go clear my corner. I'm moving down the wal. Short wall, long wall. Okay. Hey, I need now to adjust based off of the. The architectural layout of this building and this room while also scanning for threats. Like, and then as I'm going through that, I'm processing armed person, unarmed person, you know, un. Unclear space. Open door, closed door. Right. And I'm having to go through those five different things as I'm also shooting and moving and communicating and listening to the radio.
- [10:16]
B
Right.
- [10:17]
A
It's a lot.
- [10:18]
B
It. It is. And.
- [10:19]
A
But if you train.
- [10:21]
B
Yeah, you can do it.
- [10:21]
A
You slowly, you know, integrate yourself into it. You expose yourself to those things. It's a doable thing.
- [10:28]
B
Yeah. And that was one of the things that I think as I progress in jiu jitsu, if I compete again, when likely.
- [10:37]
A
Right, bro, but you should. Yeah, you would do well if you kept competing.
- [10:42]
B
Yeah, I think. I think the thing that I really took away from it is that, like, there's so many other things that I've done in my life that are so, like, vastly different, but where they kind of give me an advantage on. On the mat when it comes to that kind of stuff. Because in my second match, so I lost both matches. Spoiler alert. I know everybody wasn't ready for that, but I. I lost both matches. And in the second match, I went for about four minutes and went out to tap to a choke. That was just in a lot deeper than I thought it was initially. But I'm. I'm fighting off the submission. I'm trying to get position. I'm listening to what you're saying and making this move. And while I'm doing all of these things, I'm also realizing, like, hey, I'm. Because I'm not as adept at this right now that I'm listening to what you're saying. I'm trying to fight this admission, maintain position, listen to what you're saying, and then implement it. And I'm realizing as I'm doing that, that I'm a step. That I'm a half a step behind. But just being able to come to that realization, I was like, you know, what if I get better at this and can make some of those moves, some of them more instinctually or some of them quicker whenever that instruction comes, that I actually might have a chance to, you know, win. Not just, like, win a match, but. But maybe be competitive in. In my weight class and categories and all of that stuff. So, yeah, overall, I think the. You know, there was some of that stuff. I'm curious, because we had talked a little bit about, like, very little that I. Like that I stay pretty loose before competitions. I'm. I'm curious as to, you know, being. Being my coach. Like, what was your expectation versus what you got from. From that side.
- [12:30]
A
Yeah, I was not expecting that from you at all, really. To a point where, like, it made me unco. Because I don't. Bro, you know me. I don't ever live my life that loose.
- [12:40]
B
Yeah.
- [12:41]
A
Yeah, that is. We approach competition very different. That is not me, man. Like, that is. That's not me in life at all. Like, and, you know, maybe that's something I need to work on. I don't know, but I don't. You know, I mean, like, we're on vacation, and Amanda and I had a little conversation. We'll call it that, right? And I just was like, babe, like, that's not me. That will never be me. Like, the guy that's just fully laid back, shut it off. Yeah, it's not me. Sorry. And I haven't been. I was like, I haven't done this for the last 14, 13 years. It ain't gonna change.
- [13:20]
B
Yeah.
- [13:20]
A
Like, this is not like an act that was like, this is. This is who I am. Like, this is.
- [13:24]
B
You're not just trying to be tough and.
- [13:26]
A
Yeah, this is. This is me. I. Yeah. You know, I don't. Yeah. So anyway, so how loose you were, I was like, okay. And it was good, though. It was good because it helped me, like. And then when I realized, like, you weren't like, like, super stressed out, I was like, okay. It actually helped me a little bit.
- [13:46]
B
Yeah.
- [13:46]
A
Not be as stressed out. And. Yeah. I also don't like coaching at Jiu Jitsu matches.
- [13:53]
B
Really?
- [13:53]
A
Yeah. I'm not a good coach, bro. Like, I can't put the things together fast enough to tell you what to do.
- [13:59]
B
Yeah.
- [13:59]
A
And so I'm just like, watching. I'm giving you basic calls. And I bet if for me to listen to the video of me coaching, you'd be like, don't ever talk to ever again.
- [14:07]
B
I don't care.
- [14:09]
A
I just. I don't. I'm not a good coach because I have a hard time telling you what to do and how to do. I can just sometimes go do stuff. But if you were to ask me to, like, replicate something, I'd be like, no idea. Yeah, Like, I wouldn't be able to, like, teach it to you. Now, Mike Brown, he's a phenomenal coach. He's incredible. And obviously Victoria and Brent and Formiga and then Anthony and all the black. All those guys that were there, you know. Yeah, those guys are incredible coaches. And then also, you know, drawing a blank on their last name. But the brothers from Mid Cities. Oh, yeah, yeah. The Collins brothers.
- [14:49]
B
Yeah.
- [14:49]
A
Those guys are phenomenal coaches.
- [14:51]
B
Right.
- [14:51]
A
I love watching them coach each other.
- [14:53]
B
Really?
- [14:53]
A
Like, dude, next level. Absolutely. Next.
- [14:56]
B
That's cool.
- [14:58]
A
But you know the thing I also. I have learned that I like about watching the comp. You know who's also really good at coaching? Aiden.
- [15:04]
B
Really?
- [15:04]
A
His Jiu Jitsu IQ is unreal.
- [15:08]
B
Yeah.
- [15:08]
A
He was the same way when wrestling and, you know, and he'll. I have to remind him sometimes, like, hey, like, don't coach over for Amiga or these other guys, right? They. They've got to listen to one person. But the things he's saying is spot on.
- [15:25]
B
Yeah.
- [15:25]
A
Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, I would have Aiden sit in the coach's seat for me.
- [15:29]
B
Oh, for sure.
- [15:29]
A
100. No doubt. Like, if Formiga and Brent and Victoria and Mike, let's say, like, for what? Let's just say I'm going, and they have everybody else going, but we had.
- [15:40]
B
20 mats out there. Right. So the possibility that you are in a situation somewhere along the lines where, like, six coaches are on six different mats.
- [15:48]
A
It can happen.
- [15:49]
B
Yeah.
- [15:49]
A
For sure.
- [15:49]
B
For sure.
- [15:50]
A
If that was to, I would 100% be like, Aiden, come on.
- [15:54]
B
Yeah.
- [15:55]
A
You know, it's just. He's. He's.
- [15:58]
B
He's good. That's awesome, man.
- [16:00]
A
His IQ for Jiu Jitsu is high. And when he starts. Be on to start to piece it together himself for his game, you know? You know, because I know you know this, and obviously he knows this. You know, he's missing most of the middle of his brain that connects the two sides. So for him to be able to do what he does in life is unreal. It's a miracle. It's a God thing, right? Because, you know, doctors were, like, not thinking he'd be able to, like, ride a bike or drive a car or do sports or walk normal. Now there's a time, you know, he walks around like a baby giraffe, but that's because he's 6 foot 2 and wear size 14 shoes.
- [16:32]
B
That's true. Yeah. You know, he's got clown dimensions, and.
- [16:35]
A
He'S still, like, growing into it and everything, but he's strong, dude.
- [16:39]
B
And when he. When he. Could you imagine if he starts filling out?
- [16:43]
A
But could you imagine, bro, if he lifted three days a week?
- [16:46]
B
I don't want to imagine that because I have to roll with him. The three times a year I get to roll. I gotta roll with Aiden, so it's not fun, dude.
- [16:53]
A
Yeah, we were. We were back home in Mississippi for a funeral. His aunt passed away on his dad's side, and we've seen a lot of his family and whatnot. And everyone was like, bro, you're getting big. I'm like, imagine if he lift in there. Like, you don't lift. Like, his cousins were getting on him and one of his cousins, which I know coming from him, if Tay. You know, Taylor and Ryan are his cousins. Taylor and Ryan tremble. Awesome. Humans love those guys. Obviously, I am not even in that family line, right? But they call me family because, I mean, that's just. They're real good. You know, Aiden's dad's really good with that. He's like, bro, you're in the family. And I'm like, I remember the first time. I'm like, yeah, no, you're my wife's. Ex husband. I'm not in your family. But it was genuine.
- [17:33]
B
Yeah.
- [17:33]
A
And I recognized it was genuine from all of them. Like, they obviously, you know, Aiden's a connection between Amanda and his dad. And so Amanda was still always loved by them. You know what I mean? Like, just very good. Just good humans. They've always done the same to me, which I was shocked by at the beginning, because most people don't do that.
- [17:51]
B
No, they don't.
- [17:52]
A
They don't. They're like, no, no, we don't. That's drama. That's stupid. We don't do that stuff. Which I thought was really cool. So we were all sitting there talking and. And Taylor. Yeah, Taylor, bro, he. He played college football and he was supposed to go to the NFL.
- [18:08]
B
Oh, wow.
- [18:08]
A
Had an injury that kept it. Like, he. He played with guys that still are playing in the NFL that he was.
- [18:13]
B
That's awesome.
- [18:14]
A
A better player than those guys.
- [18:15]
B
Yeah.
- [18:16]
A
So he obviously, he has some legitimate background on lifting and just as an athlete, just, you know, just unreal. And he was talking to Aiden and I was like, you know what, Aiden? If you're not gonna listen to me, maybe you'll listen to him. And he was just like, getting on to Aiden about, like, lifting and, you know, consuming more protein and, you know, treating his body like an athlete. So I'm excited if Aiden starts doing that the next two years.
- [18:41]
B
Yeah.
- [18:41]
A
He's gonna beef up quick, be incredible. And that. That boy, he's already starting to become a problem. His first match, he was winning 12 to 0.
- [18:51]
B
Yep.
- [18:52]
A
And then subbed the guy with two and a half minutes left.
- [18:54]
B
Yeah.
- [18:55]
A
Second match, he was just making some mistakes. He got beat on points. But for Megan, I. We're talking Formigo was keeping track, which is incredible that he can do this. He's keeping track of all the points Aiden gave up by not settling into position. Oh, really?
- [19:10]
B
Wow.
- [19:10]
A
If he would have settled here or if he cleared his foot and then saddled, boom. He kept track of that whole thing. He goes, you would beat him on points.
- [19:16]
B
Wow.
- [19:17]
A
And then third match, he just. He made a mistake. You know, he. The whole missing thing in the middle of the brain. Sometimes he'll switch up things that he's supposed to do, and that's the fact that he's able to do as well as he does in jiu jitsu with. This is unreal.
- [19:30]
B
Yeah.
- [19:31]
A
And so sometimes it'll flare up, like, he'll kind of pause like it's a video game rebooting. He's trying to figure out what to do. And he was in a triangle and he sat back. Instead of like going cross collar and leaning and breaking it. He, I mean, Aiden was so much stronger than this guy. Like way stronger than this guy. He would have broken that and then been able to get out of that triangle. Pass, pass his guard. And then he would have dominated. But he, he didn't. He made some mistakes. Not stupid jiu jitsu. He wasn't being stupid and reckless. He just made mistakes and switched things up in his brain. And for Megan, I were dying laughing because when, when Aiden finally tapped, he tapped as he's going out.
- [20:11]
B
Yeah.
- [20:12]
A
And like he waited until the very end. Like he was literally going out and like taps and he like stands up and he's just still, like, still woozy. Yeah. He's doing like this. He looks up for me and I were like, you're good. He's like.
- [20:28]
B
Just, where am I, dad?
- [20:31]
A
He comes over and I'm like kind of like holding on to him, like rubbing his back and neck while he's talking for me again. He just keeps shaking his head. So. It was awesome.
- [20:39]
B
See, I got that ammonia one hitter still in my bag if he needed it.
- [20:44]
A
Oh, bro.
- [20:45]
B
Rude awakening. Yeah, I, I do. You know.
- [20:49]
A
And obviously David Schmeckle.
- [20:51]
B
Oh, yeah, yeah.
- [20:52]
A
It was good to see him.
- [20:53]
B
Yep. He podiumed, right?
- [20:55]
A
Yes, yes, he did.
- [20:56]
B
This was his first blue belt comp dude. I think so.
- [20:59]
A
He did great. Because you gotta think like your brand new blue belt, you could be going against the blue belts. Has had it for two, three years. That competes all the time.
- [21:06]
B
Well, that, and that was kind of what happened with me.
- [21:08]
A
And then you had white belts. I had been training a lot, had done competitions before, had been white belts for a while.
- [21:15]
B
Yeah.
- [21:15]
A
And you're like, hey guys, I've done like 20 classes.
- [21:18]
B
Yeah. And we were. So I was, I was talking with. I, I called Jonathan afterwards because he'd been wanting to know like how things went. So we were, we were chatting and so the first guy that I went against, he ended up taking silver. And he said he'd been training like five to six days a week for the last six months. The second guy that I went against is about to get his blue belt. He's been training about four or five days a week for the last two years. I have gotten in three classes since Thanksgiving, so. And when I told Montgomery that he kind of cracked up and he was like, bro, you're. Because you have my respect for being there, but you should not. If Somebody came up to me and they're like, hey, I'm doing this. I would be like, that's a dumb thing. Don't go. Don't be part of that competition. But it was, you know, it doesn't matter, you know, what, what belt level you're at is. You really do not know where the guys that you're competing with.
- [22:16]
A
No idea.
- [22:16]
B
You know, you. I mean, I started jiu jitsu in 2017, and, like, I'm still a white belt, right. That there are gonna be guys that, like, you know, they're. They're blue belts training, and that's what I mean. Right.
- [22:31]
A
That's a big difference.
- [22:32]
B
Right. And so. But you'll also have these guys who, like, oh, they trained like three or four years, they got their blue belt, and then they took a year off. And then they were on a year and off a year and have done that for a decade. And that are still, you know, blue belts. And now they're kind of back into training. But it's going to take them, you know, another 18 months, you know, of showing, hey, I'm actually committed to this and being here day in and day out, because there are a lot of schools, and I think this is rightly so that, like, hey, you know what? You've. You're back in training, you're kind of beating all of our purple belts, you're a blue belt. But from your training history, like, until you show me you're committed to this, I'm not gonna rank you up. Like, you gotta show me that you're committed to the sport again and that you're here and doing it before we put our name on you, as, you know, all that. And so that kind of stuff makes sense to me. But it was funny to see your reactions to my being loose because we do approach things very differently. And I also think it's pretty comical that we get kind of the same response, is that people think that your intensity is. Is sometimes a little put on. And people do think the same thing about, like, oh, he's just like, you know, him being loose and goofy and all of that stuff. Like, that's, you know, he's putting on a show. It's like, that's. That is just how I am. Because neither one of us had any reason in those moments to. To do anything other than what we would naturally do.
- [23:51]
A
Yeah.
- [23:52]
B
And we're naturally at opposing spectrum, which is funny.
- [23:56]
A
It's unique that people think my intensity is like a show or I put on.
- [23:59]
B
But, I mean, it's well, and it's. It is one of those things, like the.
- [24:04]
A
When I wonder if.
- [24:07]
B
When you talk about. Well, and it. And I don't think that it's. I don't think it's necessarily a negative thing. I think it's one of those things that is an insecurity thing with a lot of people that if they can't understand something or, like, why something happens, then they think, oh, it must be because of X. Or that it's. It's this, that or the other. Because there's a, you know, I've had a couple of conversations with, with guys that are like, you know, okay, so you get to spend some time with JP and hang out with him.
- [24:34]
A
What's he really like?
- [24:35]
B
Yeah, exactly. Like, is he really. Is he always, like, on alert? Are they, you know, do they ever shut off? It's like, okay, so to an extent, like, yes. And, you know, when you guys are at the muster and those kind of things, you're. You're. Quote, unquote, you're on.
- [24:50]
A
Yeah.
- [24:50]
B
Because you're, you're talking to clients and you're trying to help people solve problems all the time, and you're, you're always thinking about how to help the person that's in front of you and being intentional with. With that. And I would say that switch kind of gets flipped off whenever we're at Jiu Jitsu training or wherever. It's us hanging out. Because you're not trying to solve every one of the problems that I bring to you. And you're also not going to look at one of the people who comes up to you at the muster with a legitimate problem and be like, bro, you're being an idiot. Which you will, on occasion, dude, do to me. Right. Which is just fine. And, and those are. But that's, you know, that's the difference between the on and off switch. But as far as, like, when we go out, the situational awareness stuff, the, the observations and all of those things that are part of who you are, but also have been part of your training and all that. Like, that doesn't get shut off.
- [25:40]
A
Yeah.
- [25:40]
B
And I don't think that that isn't a. I don't think that that's something that people understand is they think they're like, oh, well, he's got to do this because he's a seal or, you know, he's a pastor, so he has to do. He has to behave in a certain way. But the reason that, you know, I, I am a pastor is because that, that's already how it was geared. The reason that you're a SEAL is because that's already how you were geared. Yeah. And I think that's one of the things that people are like, oh, you know what? Now, this. This is part of who they are, but it's also what makes them good at what they do. They don't understand.
- [26:06]
A
And it's what we choose to do.
- [26:08]
B
Right.
- [26:08]
A
It's what we choose to do. Now, like. Like I said earlier, there's an aspect of, hey, this is who I am, and I'm not going to turn it off.
- [26:15]
B
Yeah.
- [26:16]
A
It's just part of it. With that being said, I also choose to continue doing these things in my life and living my life this way and. And feeling these ways and. And doing these things, because I also know what it's brought to me and. And I enjoy what I do at Echelon Front. I enjoy this podcast. I enjoy the different businesses that I. I help with. Right. I don't. You know, and so, yeah, I. It's always very unique to me when I hear people like, what's Jocko really like?
- [26:52]
B
Yeah.
- [26:52]
A
And that's really weird to me that people ask you that about me not calling them weird, but weird to me.
- [26:59]
B
Right.
- [26:59]
A
To hear that. I'm like, wait, who cares? Like people anyways. But Jocko, it's always very. In life, it's always like, oh, for sure. Hey, what do they really like?
- [27:07]
B
I'm like, people want to know if that is that life's real voice.
- [27:11]
A
Yes.
- [27:11]
B
So, yeah.
- [27:12]
A
Yeah. If not, he's done a great job.
- [27:16]
B
You should really do more voiceover work if that's not his voice.
- [27:19]
A
Pretty impressive, you know, and just knowing. I'm sorry, just me knowing that I know these people at such a deep level. It's really cool when I sit back and actually think about that. And I also always. It's intriguing to me when people ask, like, what are they really like? Because it makes me wonder. The people that are in their life that are influential to them, are they who they are? Like, say they are and portray to be, or are they. Or are they around people that put on this fake Persona and they just assume that a lot of other people are doing that.
- [27:55]
B
Yeah.
- [27:55]
A
You know, you actually see that and you see that on social media a lot. There's a lot of. I mean, you know, the thing that people don't understand is, like, on social media, we're only putting out our highlight reels.
- [28:06]
B
Yeah.
- [28:07]
A
For the most part, you know, I'm not ever looking at something Going, man, I. That picture looks horrible. Yeah, I'm gonna post that one.
- [28:14]
B
Right.
- [28:14]
A
I like that. I'm looking for the best, and it's a balance I try to understand, you know, understand of in regards to what's best for what I do at Echelon Front. Like, what. What should I post? How should I post? How much transparency should you actually have?
- [28:31]
B
Yeah.
- [28:32]
A
You know, because there is a difference between, you know, you want to be transparent, but, I mean, you can share too much of your. Oh, for sure. Things that you're working through, which, you know, could. Could be portrayed the wrong way. And so while that's not portrayed, I don't think, as a weakness, but if. If somebody could take what you're sharing while you're trying to be vulnerable and you're trying to work through things, if somebody can take that and twist it to have a negative impression of you and that has a negative impact on your ability to now actually influence them and lead them, that. That becomes a problem.
- [29:05]
B
Yeah.
- [29:06]
A
You know, it would be like, you know, I know there are pastors that deal with this where they have their struggles, like we all do, but they, you know, they share too much, and now it's like, I have a problem.
- [29:20]
B
Yeah.
- [29:21]
A
I don't. Does that make sense, what I'm trying to say? You know, and it's. I've always found that unique. I've always found that very unique to see how other people portray their lives and what they share and the balance.
- [29:32]
B
Yeah. You know, and it's. It's one of those things that, like, vulnerability, I think, is necessary. I think it's good. And that it's healthy on, like, those online platforms. Right. To show people that, you know, Aisha Tyler is a Canadian comedian and just stunningly beautiful. And she did a. She did a marketing campaign with Dove. Like, the soap brand.
- [29:58]
A
Yeah.
- [29:58]
B
And what she would do is she was going to schools and she would show the pictures that actually got taken and then what she looked like after they were airbrushed to show them just the reality of. Of what it was that, like, she didn't always look like, even in the covergirl photos. Like, that's not really what was taken. That there was somebody that they paid a lot of money to to make her look like this. And she was like, I have never looked like this girl. Right. So there is, I think, something to, like, that kind of vulnerability to show everybody. Like, hey, you know what? It's not always sunshine and rainbows. I think Cody does a great job of that, you know, talking about his family. Like he shows the group workouts, but then he also shows, you know, the yard got flooded because of this, right? So that there is this like balance to all of it. But you know, when you get to the point where you're, you're sharing really those, the intimate moments, then, then that's when there is, there's this little bit of voyeurism that starts to happen on the Internet and, and that is something that can, can be taken and just completely turned against you in, in such a negative way that people will try to use it to disqualify you or try to do it this, that or the other. When the idea was to be authentic and that authenticity, that oversharing maybe is what does it. We're in a spot right now where we're, I mentioned that it's been about a month ago now. I had a buddy who's four month old passed away and he's been kind of processing all of it and he's been talking to people about it and they've recorded or he's recorded a few things where he's like processing his grief and, and we're having these conversations of like these things that we recorded. Do they ever need to see the light of day? Because we know as soon as he gets released, even though it's him processing his grief, even though the idea would be to put him out to help parents who are going through the same things. Because this, as tragic as it is, this kind of stuff happens every day. That he's got two sons, he's got a wife, he's a well known personality in the anime community because he's, he's been the voice actor for like 200 different anime characters. He's a very outspoken Christian. And in that community, which already has him under a little bit of fire from a certain subsective subculture within that, that he's like, you know, if this gets out, like what. What's the risk for it? Does the potential to help somebody outweigh the, like the voyeur who's going to come and find it and be like, how dare you do this? You're trying to make money off of your dead child. And that was, you know, that was the one thing. We were talking to some friends and they're like, you know, what are you going to do whenever somebody says this? Because inevitably it's going to happen.
- [32:53]
A
It was, I mean it's happened to us at Echelon Front.
- [32:57]
B
Oh, for sure.
- [32:58]
A
It happened to Dakota Meyer. Really. He was speaking at an event, and a guy stood up and says, how do you feel knowing that you're making money off of your dead teammates? And he just stood there and he goes, how do you feel knowing that you're the most hated person in this room right now, Jackass? And I thought he handled that very well.
- [33:22]
B
I mean, that is. That's a lot of restraint. He said, I've read both of Dakota's books. That's a lot of restraint.
- [33:32]
A
He said, the amount of disgust and hate from everybody in there towards this guy.
- [33:38]
B
Yeah. Unreal. Yeah. And then at that point, like, you didn't even make your point. Right.
- [33:44]
A
Yeah. Which is perfect. Dakota just took it away.
- [33:46]
B
Yeah. And, you know, I. I do think that there is a. That there's a good and. And bad side to all of that. Right. But it's. It's tricky as a leader that, you know, to. To talk about, and you guys do a wonderful job of this. So. So maybe that's where I want to go with our. With some of our Q and A stuff, because we do have some folks who have asked this kind of thing. The outline of extreme ownership is, here is a critical failure in battle or a failure that we had in leadership. Here's the principle. Here is where we've seen it in business. This is the application of business where business was failing, and we realized that they were violating the same principle we violated on the battlefield. When you do your presentation at the muster, it follows this line of failure redemption. Right. And how that goes, when we're in positions of leadership, talking about our failures is a really important thing so that people know that, yes, failing is important.
- [34:56]
A
Yeah. And it's going to happen. It's going to happen.
- [34:58]
B
Yeah.
- [34:58]
A
And if you remember, part of one of my stories is Jocko when he said, hey, I need you to put your name on your helmet so that I can find you.
- [35:06]
B
Right.
- [35:06]
A
Seth, Blah, blah, blah.
- [35:07]
B
Yeah. The jp.
- [35:07]
A
The whole deal on the helmet story, put JP on your helmet and big, bold letters. He also took preemptive ownership over me being hesitant to step up and lead, even though he asked me to, because he knew that I was still going to have some hesitancy because I didn't want to make any mistakes. People don't wake up wanting to make mistakes. It's not something that we choose to do. And so Jocko knew that, and he knew I was going to have that reservation inside of me still. And so he took preemptive ownership by saying, hey, you're going to make some mistakes when you step up to Lead and solve problems and do these things when you're being proactive, when you're being default aggressive. He's not saying all these things. I'm phrasing it with what we teach. When you're being default aggressive to solve problems and help people, you're going to make some mistakes. Oh, for sure you're going to. But that's okay. Make them small.
- [36:05]
B
Yeah.
- [36:05]
A
And make them in a controlled environment that you can learn from, that you can adjust and that you can correct. And that's why training is critical. People do not put enough training. I'm sorry, enough emphasis on training their people. And it's, it's. To me, training should be a non negotiable.
- [36:20]
B
How do you, when you're in those situations, how do you keep from oversharing? Whenever you're talking about failure and the story, I think that comes to mind the most.
- [36:32]
A
So I'm always calculating time now.
- [36:33]
B
Okay.
- [36:34]
A
Right on. All right. How much time do I have with them and what amount of time is needed to get the point across? And how much time do they need to practice, reiterate, reassess us, debrief. You know what I mean?
- [36:43]
B
Yeah.
- [36:44]
A
So I'm thinking about that little loop. We're on the loop. Actually. There's. We have a six week course that I do at Echelon Front. We can all do it, but I've been talking with clients about it and they've been talking with Justin about us, you know, being able to do this with them. And we run through these six points. So it's a six week thing or. I'm sorry, Actually it's a six month thing, depending on the clients needs and their budget. But in six months we're going to run through this loop and it's, you know, it's a problem solving matrix that we have. And the thing that, as I talk with clients and people, where I do individual coaching as well, is like time. Like how much time do you have? You, you always need to be thinking about the amount of time that it's going to take to solve the. How much time is it going to take for me to make corrections? How much time is going to make for me to share my story? How long am I stored? It's like when you share a testimony. Like Titus is sharing a testimony at the Jesus in Jiu Jitsu. And I told him, he's like, bro. He's like, I have a three minute testimony. I have a five minute, I have a 10 minute, 15, 20 minute, 20. A three hour. He goes Whatever. And so I was like, cool, we want it at 20 minutes. And he's just such a pro at this stuff. Like Tyron, remember when Pastor Tyron came, it was 20 minutes on the mark and he was like. And boom, closed it.
- [37:59]
B
And we're all like, well done.
- [38:01]
A
Well done.
- [38:03]
B
Because you have that clock ticking in your head, right?
- [38:05]
A
Yes. For everything in life. And so we need to be more intentional and mindful of that clock that, like today, you and I working through this stuff. Like, dude, time today for me is just like. Like there's so much pressure. Unreal. You know, I pursuit that we're leaving for tomorrow. One of my buddies is flying in from San Diego for pursuit. I've got to pick him up. He's staying with us. I still got to pack and prep. I got to get stuff taken care of for, you know, for all the gu. To coordinate the logistics for the groups. And there's a lot. And so time is something that's never going to go away. It's always something that's going to be relevant. And where we fail is when we don't calculate time into the decision making matrix. We all have a decision making matrix. Some of ours are much more complex and thorough.
- [38:58]
B
Yeah.
- [38:58]
A
And efficient and effective than other people's decision making matrix. But if I'm not putting time into that calculus, I'm going to fail. And that's what I think about first, because I can again, you know, if you want to talk about anything, like, if just pick anything that you might need to correct somebody from your leadership position, like, just give me a general thing.
- [39:24]
B
Oh. Oh, yeah. So gratitude is a big one right now. Yeah.
- [39:30]
A
Cool. I have a lot of stories about gratitude and I could give you a 30 second gratitude story or I could talk for three hours.
- [39:40]
B
Yeah.
- [39:40]
A
About gratitude, you know, and just understanding, you know, how important it is to have a. An attitude that's proper, that's full of gratitude. Because when you recognize what you have and what you have access to and what other people don't, and then, you know, me understanding that my worst day is somebody's dream, and that's not just something I say. It's something I know because I've been in. In situations where people have tried to give me their kids to take with me. So in hopes that their kids could have a better life than that, what they have right now.
- [40:13]
B
Yeah.
- [40:14]
A
That. That's a very easy reminder of how good I have it.
- [40:17]
B
Yeah.
- [40:17]
A
When I'm sitting in my car in traffic, pissed off that I'm in traffic, And I see some single mom with three kids sitting at the bus stop when it's 117 degrees outside. She would love to sit in my air conditioned vehicle in traffic.
- [40:30]
B
Yeah.
- [40:31]
A
You know, when I, you know, it's like all, all of these, it's like, where do you want to go with that one?
- [40:35]
B
Right.
- [40:35]
A
Gratitude is, that's an easy one.
- [40:37]
B
It's massive though, right.
- [40:39]
A
But it's a massive void in a lot of people's hearts, which causes a lot of problems. Because if we don't have gratitude, we don't have humility. If we don't have humility, we lose everything else.
- [40:51]
B
Yeah. And I, I do think, you know, that the time thing is so huge that, you know, if you say you're going to have an hour meeting, have an hour meeting, and I think a lot of times people get caught up. I know that this happens for me. Right. A lot of times I'll start telling a story and I'm like, oh, you know what? This detail would really make it more impactful. This detail would really, you know, do this. And now, you know, my, hey, do you have three minutes? Has turned into me telling an eight minute story. And now we don't have time to do it.
- [41:19]
A
So.
- [41:19]
B
Yeah, having that, that clock in your head, I think is such an important thing. And I recognize that with your, your story about you and Amanda, right. You know, divorced, you get back together, remarried, the whole thing. My, my thing about that one too, where I think that that's a good example is you've never shared with us, nor is it appropriate for you to share all of the details of, like, what happened that caused that divorce. But there's no reason to go into all of it. But there's also, I've heard the 32nd version of that, which is, hey, you know what? I was in such a bad place. My wife and I actually got divorced. And, you know, God had to change our hearts in order to bring us back together. Like you, you know, if you want to put in the work to do something and change it, you can. If you know God's on your side, then you can make those.
- [42:03]
A
And when she served me the divorce papers, I signed them and gave them back. I didn't put in the work the first time for anything major in my life. I actually didn't fight to make it happen and I took the easy way out.
- [42:12]
B
Boom. Yeah, like, that's, that's it. And then we've also, like at the muster, you get kind of the, the 30 minute version of that, that's a little bit more. And knowing, like, hey, I got five minutes with this person. There is a much shorter way to do this where I can not violate the second law of combat.
- [42:31]
A
Yeah.
- [42:31]
B
But with simplify. Yeah. You know, I guess I think that's a really important thing. You know, you mentioned not only, like, time being a thing, but, like, and making sure that you're communicating what they actually need.
- [42:44]
A
Yeah.
- [42:44]
B
And I think for me, that's another thing that's difficult. Like, with gratitude. It seems so simple. It seems like something that I shouldn't have to explain to you.
- [42:55]
A
Yeah.
- [42:55]
B
So how do you prevent yourself from being frustrated when you are explaining to someone? Maybe some things that seem like they're common sense or maybe some things that seem like you. You're talking to an adult and so you shouldn't have to tell them how to do these. These things. You know, how do you keep yourself in that moment to where you're simple, clear, and concise, but also, you know, calm and collected in those moments?
- [43:23]
A
Yeah. I think back, and I'll just ask you a question. Have you ever been in a position when you were younger that you didn't have the proper attitude towards the situation?
- [43:32]
B
Oh, 100.
- [43:33]
A
And did somebody provide you a little bit of grace, a little bit of patience, a little bit empathy?
- [43:38]
B
Yeah.
- [43:39]
A
And did they teach you more than I deserved? Okay. So cool. It's a simple reminder of you weren't always a rock star that you think you are right now. And I remind. I. Lily. Right. I legitimately try to remind myself that every day.
- [43:53]
B
Yeah.
- [43:54]
A
Because I'm not as good as I think I am right now. I know I'm not in my mind. I like to think I'm in this great phenomenal leader, and I'm a great husband. I'm a great father, and I do all these things great. But I don't. I make mistakes, and I'm flawed. And it's just a. It's a very simple reminder that somebody, over time, like when I get frustrated, you know, with somebody else for not doing something the right way, I have to remember, like, hey, somebody gave me grace. Somebody gave me patience. Somebody helped me out. Now, there's a. There is a point where it comes time where you're like, all right, we're gonna have to cut ties moving forward on stuff. You know, it's. You know, you can. You can forgive somebody, but it doesn't mean that there's not boundaries.
- [44:40]
B
Right.
- [44:40]
A
Set. And, you know, so there's that. You know, that's a whole other Conversation that we would dive into. But for what you're saying is you have to remind yourself that you always haven't been the most gracious and empathetic, loving, generous, forgiving, compassionate person.
- [44:59]
B
Handsome There.
- [45:00]
A
Yeah. There are times that you lacked those things.
- [45:05]
B
Right.
- [45:06]
A
And through life experiences and life just coaching from other people, you've been able to grow and expand those. And so when you see somebody who's not being. Not having an attitude of gratitude and they're not being, you know, thankful, then you have to look at that as a coaching opportunity. You have a legitimate coaching opportunity to help improve this person's situation, to help improve their life. And, you know, we talk about legacy. It's a legacy play.
- [45:41]
B
Yeah.
- [45:41]
A
Every single one of us is leaving a legacy. What type of legacy are you going to leave?
- [45:47]
B
And that, I think, really hits it at another thing that a lot of people struggle with. And this tends to be, okay, if I'm walking through somebody, through these steps, well, okay, show grace. Because people showed grace to you. Yeah, I get it. So when do I give slack and when do I hold the line? Because it's easy to get into a mode where you're giving a lot of slack and you're trying to show grace and you're kind of erring on that side of like, maybe you think that you're being the peacemaker, but now when you look back six months down the road, you're like, okay, what I've really done is I've allowed us the team now because I've shown grace to this one person now I've allowed the team to deviate from standard. So when do I show grace? When do I hold the line so that that doesn't happen? And I'm not on the verge of losing some of my other teammates because I've shown this person grace.
- [46:36]
A
What do you think?
- [46:37]
B
I think this is a great question for JP to know.
- [46:40]
A
What's your initial thought on that?
- [46:42]
B
Yeah, my initial thought on it when it comes to those kinds of things is you have to constantly be looking at the standard, and you have to be making sure that you're setting the example for the standard. Because if you're not setting the example for the standard, then it's much easier to show Grayson to deviate because you're already losing the team. Even if you don't think you are.
- [47:04]
A
Based off of that as a leader, you have to look at yourself first.
- [47:08]
B
Yeah.
- [47:09]
A
And you have to make sure that you're doing the right things. Make sure that you are up to the right standards that all your things are being done properly before you really dive in and start critiquing other people. Now, it doesn't mean that we can't make changes like, okay, if I don't have all my stuff squared away, but I know you're making some, like, mistakes that need to be corrected. I'm still going to tell you that. But I should be very uncomfortable, very uncomfortable knowing that, man, I don't have my stuff dialed in like it should be. Let me make sure I'm taking, Let me make sure my house is clean before I'm telling you you need to clean up your house.
- [47:43]
B
Yeah.
- [47:43]
A
And it's just, you have to understand when you're in a leadership position, you have to hold yourself to a higher standard. You have to.
- [47:49]
B
Yeah, I do. I think it's, it's funny going back to the time thing because we, we all want to think that we are simple, clear and concise, but we're not. And when I was talking with, with Kim from the Echelon front team, she and I were having a chat about how to get sound bites when I was doing some stuff out of the ftx and we were talking about stuff from our podcast because they're wanting to, to use some more of that for the Echelon front stuff, which I think is pretty cool. And Kim goes, the two best people on our team for sound bites are JP and Jocko. She's like, by, by far. If I need a 60 second from them, then I can just tell them I can give this and say, hey, here's my question. I need 60 seconds from you go. And she goes, even the other guys who are in leadership, we got to give a little bit more detail. Like, okay, well, don't, you know, make sure you do. You do this. Make sure you're checking this box and this box, or they're going this way and narrow the field down for them a little bit more. She's like, but JP and Jaco, we can just give them a question and go. So that, that time conscious thing or that time conscientiousness, put it that way, that you have is something that's also pretty felt by the folks that are on the, on the team there at ef, which is, which is pretty cool. And that brings me to the, to the last thing. So if, if time is the biggest thing, it's considering time, how, how much do we need to think about when we're sharing a story, breaking it down, right? Like, if we know we've got a good story, should we consider like having the, the three minute, the five minute, the 30 second version of it or you know, I'm in the moment, I'm talking with somebody and this in my mind that I'm like, oh, this is going to be really relevant and really impactful. I got five minutes, I got three minutes with them, you know, whatever. What's the mental process that you're running to try to make that story as big as it, it is, you know, knowing all the details and all the impact and stuff it had on you. What's the mental process that you're running to get that story down to simple, clear and concise so that you can one you think of in the moment to get it there?
- [49:47]
A
Well, it's based off the information that I have about this person, about the situation and my perspective that I have. And the more questions I can ask, the more intel I can gain from that person, the more my perspective gets broadened.
- [49:58]
B
Sure.
- [49:58]
A
And then I take that information and based off of that information that tells me what I need to do. Based off of pre event calls with different clients, I will alter the amount of stories and how deep I go into stories depending on the interaction I'm having with the crowd, the questions I'm getting, the pre event call and all, everything leading up to it. And you know, I, I do my pre event calls and I study those call notes. Like as I'm getting close to the event, as I'm going to that event, I'm looking through it towards like I just know all those major points in my brain. And then as I'm talking with every single person, I'm collecting data, every single person I talk to from that company, I'm asking questions, I'm, you know, kind of watching their, their body posture and their tone and how they're, you know, the little comments like about oh yeah, another training or oh man, I'm fired up for this training or hey man, this training is going to be good because of these things. Like I will get as much information as I can and that guides me where I need to go with my stories, with the questions I even asked them and I'll even ask people questions during my briefs. Hey, where is this working? Hey, where are you guys seeing these things doing, you know, being done very well. And so I will, I will derive more information my way to help me understand. Okay, hey, cool throttle, you know, throttle back on these stories or hey, let's, let's, let's dive deeper into these things and if I can share a story that has Multiple talking points from different principles. I'll also share that as well, because then as I'm talking about COVID like, hey, you guys remember the story I told you about when we got to Ramadi? What was the number one focus of our leadership? Going and building what it rhymes with relationships.
- [51:33]
B
Right.
- [51:33]
A
Yep. Relationships. I will guide people back through the stories and tie it into my talking points as well. And it just has a lot more impact.
- [51:42]
B
So.
- [51:42]
A
So alters. Yeah, I'm sorry, It varies based off of the. The different information that I get and I have retained. And that's part of just taking what I do very serious. I don't just show up and give my scripted speech.
- [51:57]
B
Yeah.
- [51:57]
A
It's not the same every time. It is not the same.
- [51:59]
B
No, it's not. Which I, Which I think is kind of cool. It's. It's fun. It keeps it interesting. For those of us who get to. Who get the privilege of watching you do it a few times, how do you determine when to share the story and when to listen? Because that's another one that I think a lot of leaders.
- [52:15]
A
Default is listen.
- [52:16]
B
The default is listen.
- [52:17]
A
You should always be listen.
- [52:18]
B
Yeah.
- [52:19]
A
How are you supposed to solve problems if you don't have information? And how do you get. You can't.
- [52:25]
B
Yeah.
- [52:25]
A
I mean, you might be able to. You might get lucky. But if you are truly trying to solve somebody's problems and if you're not listening, if you're not asking questions, if you're not gaining all the information, you're going to fail.
- [52:40]
B
Yeah.
- [52:41]
A
So your default should be, hey, what's going on? Hey, what do you think is the issue here? Hey, what do you think we need to be focused on? Hey, what I'm going to ask them. I'm not going to come in and be like, hey, here's the issue. Here's what you need to be focused on. Here's why you screwed up. I'm going to ask questions. Hey, this didn't go that well. What do you think? What do you think the problem was? Or, hey, this gear failed. Like, what do you think caused that gear to fail? Hey, you got this injury. Like, what caused that injury? I know it's because they weren't wearing their safety equipment.
- [53:07]
B
Right.
- [53:08]
A
But I want to ask questions and earnest questions because, hey, maybe I know they weren't wearing their equipment, but what if there's a chance that they were and that safety equipment failed as these things were happening? And, you know, you know, there's just a lot of different variables. I don't. I Don't really know. Yeah, especially I've always right there watching videoing and I can review the tapes. So I'm going to give them the opportunity to talk first so that I can listen. And then I would share stories that are relevant to what they talked about.
- [53:40]
B
Yeah, I think that's the. For me in particular, that's the. That's the thing is, I feel like so often, and I, I know I'm not the only one that falls into this trap because this is something that pops up on our, our Q and A all the time, is the, you know, somebody's talking to me. I'm. I'm listening. I'm doing the active listening thing. I'm telling them, you know, this is what I heard you say. And so they, they're feeling really hurt. And then I think I've come up with the story that's going to solve it. Like, this is the. Oh, you know what? This is the story where I can perfectly relate to you. And if you just do what I did do or what I didn't do in this situation, then that's going to solve your problem. And we get some of our ego tied to that. Where we're like, if they would have just listened to me, then, you know, that would have been I told you so. Right. And more often than not, I'm finding that, you know, that is less important than just listening. Because if they just listen to what you. Or if you just listen to what they have to say, a lot of times people work stuff out on their own.
- [54:40]
A
Yep. That's why I'm saying ask questions first, default to listening.
- [54:44]
B
So when you're, when you're asking questions, are you asking questions to lead them to the response that you think is most beneficial for them, or are you asking and asking earnest questions? Are you trying to get them to probe more and more into why they did the things that they did or believe the things that they believe?
- [55:02]
A
Both.
- [55:03]
B
Okay.
- [55:03]
A
I think it's both.
- [55:04]
B
Yeah.
- [55:05]
A
Because if you can get them to see why they did things or why they didn't do things, but then also see the solution to what's best for them, then it's on them. It's on their terms.
- [55:14]
B
Yeah.
- [55:14]
A
Now you don't have to convince them. They see it. They understand and see it themselves. So, you know, it's just. It's not a theory anymore.
- [55:22]
B
Right.
- [55:23]
A
It's something that they. They've actually felt and experienced themselves and which is going to be much more impactful for them. Creating habits to change behavior and tendencies.
- [55:31]
B
So would you say then, in your experience that listening is more effective than storytelling and teaching?
- [55:38]
A
Yes. Because it allows you to have the correct information to give the proper responses through stories.
- [55:45]
B
I. I think that is something that is not often talked about enough.
- [55:52]
A
Because people like to talk, share their stories. Because it's ego driven, which is, trust me, I get it. I love it.
- [55:58]
B
It.
- [55:58]
A
Yeah, it's what I do for a living.
- [55:59]
B
Right.
- [55:59]
A
Like, my ego gets boosted every single day when we share our stories and we share the lessons and people like, ah, man, that's the best. It's the best I've ever had experience in here.
- [56:07]
B
Yeah.
- [56:08]
A
Hell yeah, man.
- [56:09]
B
Yeah. But then you better believe it is.
- [56:10]
A
But then you recognize, like, oh, that's my ego talking. And actually I forgot to talk about this. And actually I went over time by seven minutes and actually I didn't do this. And actually boom. Or boom. Boom.
- [56:21]
B
Boom.
- [56:21]
A
A boom. Right? I mean, I can go. I can easily sit back and pick. Took every single one of my keynotes and workshops apart and be like, not as good as you think you are, bud.
- [56:31]
B
Yeah, shouldn't have done this.
- [56:32]
A
Or that's part of not this or not. Not believing the hype. You know, you have to do honest self assessments and if you don't, you get into a spot where you just think you're incredible.
- [56:42]
B
Yeah.
- [56:42]
A
And that's a dangerous place to be.
- [56:44]
B
I. I don't think we've got time to do it today, but I really want to get into 360 surveys.
- [56:51]
A
Cool. Yeah, let's do it in the next one maybe.
- [56:52]
B
Because I know that, you know, if you're going to be honest with yourself and doing these type of self assessments, one of the ways that you find that out is giving everybody the opportunity to give you feedback whether or not it's gonna blast your ego or. Or force you to come face to face with some truths that you. You don't like.
- [57:13]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's do it soon. Right? Well, I just want to thank you guys for the support each of you have given us by listening, sharing, subscribing and commenting. Make sure you are subscribed to us on YouTube so you can be notified when our YouTube exclusive episodes come out. If you want to follow us on social media, I am at jpdinelle, that's at jpdi N N E L Lucas is at Lucas Pinker, that's at L U C A S P I N C K A R D. Make sure you're also following Echelon front on social media. We are at Echelon Front. And when you want to learn more about what we do at Echelon Front, you go to echelonfront.com click on events to see future events that we have. Shop for some of the merch that we have. You can also check out Extreme Ownership Academy if you would like. And also if you would like to work with us at Echelon Front, you can request that on the website and someone from our team will reach out to you. You can also just send me a direct message and I'll help facilitate that conversation. I look forward to seeing you guys at one of our future events and or for one of our instructors come work with you and your company. Also check out Jesus and Jiu Jitsu usa. It's a ministry that I'm a part of. We have a podcast that has episodes that come out every Tuesday. We're also doing live events about every four to six weeks. If you're listening to this, on the day that it came out tomorrow on February 15th, we will be having an event at Double 5 in Highlands Village. Victoria is going to be teaching and then afterwards Titus Cotone is going to be given his testimony and then we'll open it up for some open mat training. It's going to be awesome. You know, we start off the events with that free Jiu Jitsu seminar testimony and then for some good training, make sure you check out little cattle company.
- [58:51]
B
Get that beef.
- [58:52]
A
Yeah, dog. Our website is littlecattle Co. It's a Texas beef company I'm a partner of. We're actually pausing the beef sales right now for an uncertain amount of time as we work to restructure some stuff to create a more sustainable structure for the company and the products as we adjust to some things that are going on. We are a Texas beef company, as I said. And what's cool about that is being a part of that has been really cool to see the process and how well these steers are treated by Rocky, who is Steven's uncle. It's really cool to see that the steers, you know, they're, they're raised the right way, you know, as they're moved around and in the process, you know, they all do it off of horseback, which is really cool. That's rad grass fed grain finish which is a like the best combo for that. But anyways, what we have on the website is what we have for now. Not, not sure when the beef will be back. We got to figure that out. But we do still have all the beef dollar products and the beef Sticks, so you can get that as well. You know, you have the body butter, the tallow cream, the lip balm. The beef sticks are freaking so good. I gave my buddy one of them, my buddy Justin Anthony, who took Aiden and I out fishing. I brought him some beef sticks. He's like, bro, this is the best beef stick I've ever had. I could eat 10 of them in one day. So if you want to try those out, you can go to our website. Also, if you want to be a wholesaler, if you have a business and you would like to resell the beef sticks, if you want to be a wholesaler for us, send us or any of the Beef Taller products, send us a email to Amanda at littlecattle Co, also a partner of the company called on the Path Printing. Josh and I started that company. We are on Instagram at On the Path Printing. Send us a message on there. We'll get back to you. Let us know what you have in regards to any of your apparel printing needs. Also check out Bruiser Arms. We are on Instagram's company, Jocko Life and I have, we're doing. Send us a message about the custom gear packages we offer. Also custom training, custom training classes that we can put together. You send me a direct message, I'll help facilitate that conversation as well. Also want to thank Origin and Jocko Field for all the support they have given over the years. What they've done is absolutely incredible. What they're doing is incredible. What they're about to do is absolutely incredible. The best jiu jitsu gear, 100American made. 100American made clothes. I mean, we're talking boots, pants, belts, shirts, hoodies, beanies, wallets. I mean, it's crazy. And their hotline, 100American made hotline. All the Jiu Jitsu stuff, the GI's, the rash guards, and now the new belts.
- [61:37]
B
Pretty cool.
- [61:38]
A
Those sold out.
- [61:38]
B
And if you, if you're not following them on Instagram, you need to. Yes, because they will drop you a message and let you know about stuff 24 to 48 hours before it launches.
- [61:49]
A
The original heavy hoodies coming back for limited time.
- [61:53]
B
Yeah. And so, so they'll drop that little link in there and let you know, hey, since you're following us and part of our message group here, this is coming out tomorrow. It's making the big announcement. So if you want it, you can get it now. So it's, it's cool. I've taken advantage of a couple of those.
- [62:06]
A
Yeah, it's really rad. So go to originusa.com jocafuel.com check out their products, their supplements, clean energy drinks, hydrates. So I've been dry drinking a lot of those today to stay hydrated and just kind of fight the funk, man. Replace the cold war from Jocko Fuel.
- [62:23]
B
I've heard good things about this. I haven't tried it, dude.
- [62:25]
A
It's awesome.
- [62:27]
B
Anyways, I need to give it a shot.
- [62:28]
A
You have any final closing thoughts for us?
- [62:30]
B
Yeah. Whatever that hard thing is that you. You're afraid of, just go do it.
- [62:34]
A
Yeah.
- [62:35]
B
Whether it's a jiu jitsu tournament, whether it is having that conversation with your teammate that you don't want to have.
- [62:40]
A
Yeah.
- [62:41]
B
Or whether it is keeping your mouth shut so that you can listen to somebody a little bit better and, you know, earn a little bit more of that. That leadership capital. Just put a little bit more of that in the bank because you decided, you know what? This isn't the time for me to tell a story. This is the time for me to ask, why do you feel that way? What was your least favorite thing about this interaction then? And then figure that out. Let somebody else talk.
- [63:04]
A
Just sit, talk. Subordinate your ego. Show some humility. Remember that you weren't always a rock star that you think you are right now, and everything that you've been given you need to give back, and everything your team isn't is because of you. So I hope this episode has been a reminder to go out and do the work that's needed to put in the effort to build your legacy and to never settle. This has been the JP Donnell podcast, episode 73.