A (3:36)

Okay, is there something for me to do here or am I going to be mostly like, am I mostly going to be listening and then asking inane questions? Is that my job today?

B (3:46)

That's your job today.

A (3:47)

All right, go ahead.

B (3:48)

You can listen and interject and reflect as you do.

A (3:52)

Go ahead. Go for it then.

B (3:53)

Okay, so. And as a reminder that these stages, these body grief stages, are not linear, even though we are announcing them numerically and in an order. You obviously can go back and forth at any point in your life. And we are certainly talking about body grief through the lens of living with diabetes. But this also can be applied to any other issue that occurs within your body. It's just getting a cold. You might go through some of these stages or having surgery or changing, you know, going through menopause. You'll experience this. So you can kind of listen to these stages through various lenses. But we'll be, we'll be applying this specifically to diabetes also.

A (4:38)

And I want to reiterate, it's not like. It's not like there's certain number of stages and they happen in order. These things could. Some of them could happen to you, all of them. Some of them could repeat that kind of thing, right?

B (4:50)

Yes. Okay, absolutely. And so this first stage dismissal could occur most definitely at diagnosis, but as we get into it, you'll see where it might show up at any point in your life as both the caregiver as well, but also for the person living with diabetes. So dismissal sounds like, I'm fine, everything's fine. Like when someone says, how are you doing? I'm fine, everything's fine. But underneath that, if you are in the dismissal stage, what you're really trying to do is stay in control of the narrative when you aren't really sure what's going on in your body.

A (5:35)

Right.

B (5:35)

So you're kind of ignoring, dismissing, and it is a response to fear. Now, there's a couple different reasons why. So you might be fearful when someone says, how are you doing? And this is just for the example here, and you say, I'm Fine. Everything's fine. Maybe you're fearful of inconveniencing yourself or the other by going into detail. And this is where we're going to get into this point a little bit later when we talk about misconceptions.

A (6:07)

Okay.

B (6:09)

We might be also fearful of the future. Right. When someone says, how are you doing? And you dismiss how you're actually doing, are you really. Are you scared of what. What is to come? You're not really sure? Or are you fearful that your body, the way you lived, the way you functioned, will never go back to the way you were before, so you're responding to some of that fear without maybe even knowing it?

A (6:37)

Do you think that when someone says, I'm fine, that some people are doing that thing that you just described, like, trying not to talk about what. Maybe they're not fine, or maybe they're not sure how they're going to be. Do you think there are some people that just have an out of sight, out of mind mentality and that they really are fine, or do you think that's still something just someone says and they maybe don't consciously realize how they feel?

B (7:02)

That makes sense, yes. I think if we're discussing this through, like, the lens of knowing that something just happened majorly to your body, for example, the diagnosis, and you're really feeling the burden and the grief from that, and. And you're responding, I'm fine. I think there are two big drivers of that within the diabetes context. One is the fear of not knowing what's actually happening and you're trying to just stay, keep it together. And the other one is the kind of misconception which we'll get into. But in your response or your question, I think sometimes you might just be fine and you might not be struggling with how your body is adjusting to something that has happened.

A (7:48)

Because I've interviewed people who have said that and I've believed them, and I've interviewed people who said that, and I thought, oh, you're lying to yourself. But I don't know if that's conscious or unconscious. But there are. There have been some people that I just think you could drop them into any situation and they're just like, keep going, all good, you know? But it's. I don't know. I always still wonder about those people, too, because I think I'm one of those people and I wonder about me. Like, am I really just okay, or am I. Have I decided that this part we won't think about anymore and therefore we can pretend we're Okay. I just think it's interesting.

B (8:23)

It is. Well. And I think even just conversationally, when you're checking out at the grocery store. How are you doing? I'm fine, thanks. How are you? It's such a part of our cultural kind of common exchange, being polite, being social. And there also is that caveat too. Of course there are appropriate times to maybe keep it more surfacey or not, but here we're kind of focusing in on those moments and whether it's conscious or not. Are you responding? I'm fine. Everything's fine. When really underneath the surface you are freaking out and you're uncertain about what's going to happen. I'm thinking also through the lens of the caregiver, you're really worried about what your child's future is going to be like and you're maybe longing and missing and grieving the, you know, the past. Okay, so in that space, if you are operating in out of dismissal, it could be that you're fearing, once you say the truth out loud again, that being inconvenient, it might be too troubling, it might be even too confusing for the other person and just too painful. Right. So you're just trying to like keep, keep things going. And are there times when you need to do that? Yes. But this is kind of, again, if you're operating out of this stage consistently, you might be in dismissal stage.

A (9:47)

Is there a piece of that where you can't get the genie back in the bottle so you gotta kind of keep it there too? You know what I mean? Once I say it, I can't go back to the part where I pretend that this wasn't happening anymore.

B (10:01)

Absolutely. That's the part. Right. So you don't wanna acknowledge if you're scared and you don't wanna acknowledge what you were just saying, you don't wanna acknowledge what's happening. That's when this dismissal stage shows up. So you're trying to, you're just trying to keep it going, Right? I'm too scared. I don't really know what's going on in my body, but I'm going to try and control the narrative and keep it going.

A (10:23)

Okay. It occurs to me this is, I hope this feels on point, but I mean, as human beings, isn't that this how we have most of our long term successes? Like at some point don't you have to like turn the other cheek or turn a blind eye or pretend or whatever at some point in all different parts of your life? Right. So some of it's not just coping. I think some of it's, you know what I'm saying? Like in every personal relationship that's ever existed, if we all stopped sometime when something happened that was it was actually an affront to us and we put our foot in the dirt, it would probably break up all kinds of different things like everybody's got to take. I don't know. This is interesting, but do you do it with yourself is what I'm wondering? Is that the same idea? Like if I want to get to the end of this, do I have to dismiss a portion of this? But you're going to tell me if I'm. If I'm as you keep going, I think it's going to come into picture for me. This episode is brought to you by Omnipod. Would you ever buy a car without test driving it first? That's a big risk to take on a pretty large investment. You wouldn't do that, right? So why would you do it? When it comes to choosing an insulin pump, most pumps come with a four year lock in period through the DME channel and you don't even get to try it first. But not Omnipod 5. Omnipod 5 is available exclusively through the pharmacy, which means it doesn't come with a typical four year DME lock in period. Plus, you can get started with a free 30 day trial to be sure it's the right choice for you or your family. My daughter has been wearing an Omnipod every day for 17 years. Are you ready to give Omnipod5 a try? Request your free starter kit today at my link omnipod.com Juicebox terms and conditions apply. Eligibility may vary. Full terms and conditions can be found@ omnipod.com juicebox find my link in the show Notes of this podcast player or@juicebox podcast.com I have always disliked ordering diabetes supplies. I'm guessing you have as well. It hasn't been a problem for us for the last few years though, because we began using US medicine. You can too. Usmed.com juicebox or call 888-721-1514 to get your free benefits. Check US Med has served over 1 million people living with diabetes since 1996. They carry everything you need from CGMs to insulin pumps and diabetes testing supplies and more. I'm talking about all the good ones. All your favorites Libre 3, Dexcom, G7 and pumps like Omnipod 5, Omnipod Dash Tandem and most recently the Eyelet Pump from BET Bionics. The stuff you're looking for. They have it at us med, 888-721-1514 or go to usmed.com juicebox to get started now. Use my link to support the podcast that's usmed.com juicebox or call 888-721-1514.

B (13:26)

Yes, and I hear this. So what we're thinking, it feels confusing maybe a little bit. Or not as clear. Because when we're talking about dismissal and I'm fine, everything's fine. In response to there is. You are experiencing grief as a result of either the diagnosis, and this is a really natural part of processing what is actually happening in your body. So this isn't like, this isn't wrong or bad, but this is really normal. Um, and I think what to. To recognize that you are doing it. These are some signs, right? So. So signs that you are in dismissal. If you're noticing that you don't want to be seen as too much or too needy or too difficult, so you're keeping it real, surface, level with yourself or with others. You might be canceling plans with your friends. You're not responding to texts or emails or phone calls because you don't want them to actually see how you're actually doing.

A (14:33)

Right.

B (14:35)

Conversely, you might overwork over, produce over schedule to prove you're doing great. Like, look at me, I can do all these things. I'm fine, I can keep it going with. This is where we're talking about with diabetes and dismissal. This is a really common place of pain and tension for people, particularly at diagnosis. But this happens all the time. When I feel like dismissals is a tricky and complicated stage. Because of this duality that we've talked about before with diabetes, do we want to keep it private or do we want to explain it to everyone? When someone says, how are you doing? And you've been up all night with lows, or you're just burnout, you're faced with this. Do I try and explain it to them how I'm actually feeling? Do I keep it private? But then I'm either feeling isolated and alone in it, or I'm going to try and explain it, and maybe they aren't really going to get it, so I'm going to feel misunderstood and their platitudes might not land the way I want them to. So then do you revert back to I'm fine?

A (15:53)

Everything's the other option, really.

B (15:55)

Right, Right.

A (15:55)

Because you're either going to, like, struggle through the explanation and they'll understand, and then you've had to put out a bunch of energy or you struggle through it. They don't understand. Now you're frustrated that even though they've heard it, they don't seem to get it. I just had this person online talk about how, like, one of their best friends just told them their friendship was over because they couldn't handle listening to them about their diabetes anymore. That's horrible. Right? Like, so you're running that risk. There's a lot of risk in there. But if I'm fine's not the. Is there an answer besides, I'm fine in polite society, this is none of your business. Like, do I say, hey, why don't you leave me alone? Because don't make me lie to you? Maybe you should say, don't make me lie to you. That'd be a great way to respond.

B (16:39)

Yeah, I want to be honest, but can you handle it? I. That's the tricky part. And I think this. There's this. There's the internal fear and avoidance of dismissal. But then this external dismissal, which I would probably define as misconceptions, may keep us in that place of what you're saying of, like, is there an. Is there an alternative besides, I'm fine? So when people are saying things and, like, you know, aren't you grateful it's not cancer? Or it's easier with that pump and cgm. Right. I get that all the time. You don't seem sick. You don't seem like you have a chronic illness or you're so strong and resilient. The warrior thing, we are faced with those misconceptions, and those will land and they will feel they will sting at any point in our lives because we're human. Probably more intensely, I would say, at diagnosis, when you're trying to figure out what is your identity with diabetes, but left unacknowledged, I feel like this is where we talked about in the intro episode of this Is where kind of diabetes distress and body grief, I think, kind of overlap. Okay, Right. Like, we experience distress when we're constantly being faced with those misconceptions along with all the other things we're having to manage. And so we're going to get to a practice of what do we do with these misconceptions besides trying to educate everyone, which is, you know, impossible.

A (18:20)

Yeah. I had an experience recently during an interview where a parent kept saying that thing like, the kids are so. They're heroes, they're this, they're that. And I. I did not have the heart, like, to stop and just Say, I don't think you should put that on them. Because I think maybe you're just trying to talk yourself into believing they're going to be okay because they seem okay or they're so tough or something like that. And I just always revert back to, like, what's the alternative? Like, you know what I mean? I don't think people are brave because they want to be. I think they're brave because they don't have any other choice in those situations. You know what I mean?

B (18:56)

Yes, I. I know we've wrestled with this. You know the phrase of. That you're a T1D warrior, or, you know, whatever kind of warrior. The. I think that's. That's positive, and I totally affirm and encourage that.

A (19:10)

Yes.

B (19:11)

And there also has to be space for the kid to say, or for yourself to say, this sucks. Yeah, this is hard.

A (19:17)

Top line.

B (19:18)

I'm a warrior, and it is hard.

A (19:20)

Yeah. Oh, top line. And. And I mean, that person's intention, and I think everybody's intention says it is. It's incredibly positive. I just think that sometimes you have to look downstream a little bit to see how it might be, you know, perceived by the person who you're describing that way, who probably does not feel.

B (19:37)

Brave or strong or maybe doesn't want to be.

A (19:41)

Right.

B (19:41)

Right.

A (19:42)

Or doesn't want to be or is pretending to be or whatever. It's just. It's a lot to put on another person. Um. You know what I mean?

B (19:50)

Yes. And I think that nurturing and encouraging and, And. And speaking those words out loud is positive because it's a positive thing for. For yourself as the caregiver or the person living with diabetes. But you always get to acknowledge the other side. Or else then it feels like, well, there's no space, there's no room. I'm not allowed to feel anything else besides, I'm brave and resilient and strong. But what if I don't wanna be? What if I hate being like, yeah.

A (20:20)

No, I hear it. And I also feel it for the people on the other side of it. Who. It's often friends, family, loved ones, your parents, somebody who is really worried about you. And I don't think they can handle thinking that you're not somehow a superhero in this scenario. I've said before, some of the most together people I've ever Met have Type 1 because it feels like they have a ton of perspective. But I think that's true. I think they've been through a lot and they have a lot of perspective. I'm not saying they wanted the perspective. Like, you know, like I, I say sometimes, like I feel like I have the perspective of like a 95 year old man. I had it when I was like 30. I didn't want it though, you know what I mean? Like, I would have liked to have learned about life the same way everybody else does. Not through 17 horrible things that happened very quickly over a 24 month period. So, anyway, okay, all right, where we go from here? How do we fix this?

B (21:12)

No, I'm sorry, we don't fix it. I know we have to work through it, Scott.

A (21:17)

Okay, all right. How do we work through it?

B (21:19)

So well, before we get into the kind of the body residency practice, which we're going to do in a minute, I think having also a practical tool in the moment when you're wrestling with this, I'm saying I'm fine, everything's fine, but underneath I am, I'm freaking out or I'm really struggling. I think starting from kind of this concept of the misconception of people think it's easy because we make it look easy, but when they make comments, we're not quite sure how to respond. So that kind of perpetuates this loop of misconception. One of my favorite statements that I make and I practice with my clients is when they say, how are you doing? Or they'll ask questions about the pump and the CGM and consider hope that it's easier. Let's see, you know, living, living with diabetes or living with, even with this technology is, is way more complex and complicated than I ever imagined. And I think in that moment you're kind of teaching them that. Oh yeah, I used to, I used to think it was easy until I got it right. And then I realized it's really hard.

A (22:33)

You kind of put it on yourself a little bit. Like I felt that way too until I got into it here. And it's nice, there's value in it. But it doesn't just make it easy. You do see people say that about the pumps. Especially like, oh, well, it just takes care of everything, right? Like that's a real interesting mistake.

B (22:52)

I wish.

A (22:52)

Yeah, that'd be awesome.

B (22:56)

Or have having something prepared and you know, again, it feels really intense in the beginning. And I think, you know, wrestling with that, people are not understanding how hard it is. So either I'm just going to say I'm fine when I'm not, or when I try and speak something out and say how I'm actually feeling, they're not really understanding. And they'll say, oh yeah, I was sick too once or I struggled with this other thing. And then you're left with feeling alone. And so deciding in those micro, all of these micro moments of how do I want to respond? It will get easier over time when someone says, oh you can you eat that cookie? And I'll be like, heck yeah I can. I'm going to have two. Or, or I'll, it'll. I mean, but these moments, I've shared these, A lot of these examples, I know over the years they still stick with me.

A (23:55)

Right.

B (23:55)

I still remember almost all of them.

A (23:57)

Do you ever have.

B (23:58)

But they have sting less.

A (23:59)

Do you ever have 2 cookies to show them you can when you don't want one, can you have one of those? Like, I'm gonna grab another one now. What do you think of that? Yeah, yeah.

B (24:08)

Or you know, just recently a friend was traveling abroad and they said, what can you bring back? They're going to, I think it, it was Switzerland. I said, oh, can you bring me back some chocolate? And, and they said, oh, can, can you eat chocolate? I said, oh, yes. I love, I love dark chocolate.

A (24:24)

Just keep it nice and simple. Don't explain it. Just.

B (24:27)

Yeah, yes. So but then I want to validate that, that type of comment. I've been living with type one for 35 plus years. I know that that would really bring me down, be like that person, how do they not know they know me. And I still feel that. I still feel like, wow, they don't. But then it's choosing just to respond to say yes I can and moving on will feel easier at some times than others.

A (24:57)

You would have ex, you would have responded differently when you were younger.

B (25:01)

You think I probably would have shut down and not talk to anybody.

A (25:05)

Yeah. Oh really? Okay.

B (25:06)

But inside would have been really angry or you know, the shame around that you shouldn't, you shouldn't be eating that.

A (25:11)

Right.

B (25:13)

But I think. Or, and then deciding if it is a good friend to say, well actually, you know, I can eat. Deciding, do you want to explain more? How much do you want to go with that person?

A (25:24)

Current day, when you ask for somebody to bring you chocolate home from Switzerland as an example, do you know that the follow up is going to be that are you already prepared for when you ask for the chocolate, they're going to say, oh, can you have chocolate? Or do you not think of it that.

B (25:37)

No, I was, I was surprised.

A (25:38)

Oh, it took you by surprise.

B (25:39)

Yeah. Yeah. Yes. So I think that it just. You're, I'm Kind of constantly surprised around the misconceptions. Even with my close friends do the levels.

A (25:54)

You know who I always feel the worst for? The people whose parents still don't get it, though. That's a certain level of, like, just. Are you kidding me? You know, like, my mom still doesn't understand this. I grew up with this. And she doesn't get it. Like, I've. I've. I've seen people be. I think extra damaged is the word that keeps coming into my head, but, like, extra impacted by that, you know, so. Interesting. So it was a friend of yours you expected would not say that, and you got. And you said the right thing. You said what you meant to say. Look at you.

B (26:24)

Wait, what?

A (26:25)

I mean, your response was, oh, yeah, I can have that. I love dark chocolate.

B (26:28)

Yeah, I love. I love dark chocolate. And then we didn't go into it. I could have. And then it just. The subject changed. But the fact that I'm bringing it up and I remember it also means it landed somewhere in my. In my heart.

A (26:44)

Right. But you didn't go, are you kidding me, Patty? Are you out of. We have known each other for 15 years. You didn't do that. Right? Like, start stomping your feet, you're like, that's it. We're done. Son of a. Yeah.

B (26:57)

So, I mean, it just.

A (26:58)

It.

B (26:58)

It does happen. And having prepared responses and over time, you're going to hear it more. And so then you also have that practice. Anyway, we. Sorry, went a little bit off topic, but what can you do having those. Those responses prepared? And then secondly, going back to, you know what. So what do you do with that feeling? There's one. There's one response. You could have that verbal response in the moment, but then maybe when you go home and you're just feeling, like, either isolated or misunderstood or unvalidated, invalidated, you want to engage in that, in those feelings, you know? I know, Scott, you joke about, like, well, how do we fix this? So we can't. We can't fix it, but we can feel it. And so engaging with the body grief. Engaging with the feelings means meeting your body where it's at right now. So we're gonna. We're gonna do something that if you're driving, I encourage you not to do it. So maybe you can pause and listen to this later, but we're gonna do a body scan exercise. Because one of the practices that is encouraged if you're noticing that you're in dismissal is to practice body residency.

A (28:11)

Okay.

B (28:12)

Which means really kind of like what? Maybe some of you already do, like body scans, mindfulness, mindful eating, stretching, yoga, grounding exercises, anything where you are actually pausing and engaging and connecting with how your body is physically feeling, how your body is emotionally feeling. And it can be done 60 seconds, you could take an hour. But that's what we're going to do right now. Is that okay?

A (28:44)

Yeah, I'd love to. I was worried, like when you said you can't do it while you were driving, I was like, I hope this is a pants on thing. I don't know what's happening right now. Go ahead.

B (28:51)

All right, so what are the steps, Scott? Okay, so, and going back to the concept of body trust, right? Which is the. This two way street. In order to trust our bodies, our bodies need to trust us to take care of it, be kind to it and nourish it. And that is the concept that Jane talks about, that we're always trying to return to body trust. Right. So in order to trust our bodies, our body needs to trust us to take care of it. So when you're feeling like you're in this dismissal stage, you can check in and engage with your body. And that is part of processing through the body grief. So we're going to do a body scan right now.

A (29:36)

Am I going to close my eyes? I'll do it.

B (29:37)

Yes, you are. Okay. I'm going to lead you through this. Okay. So I'm going to invite you, if you can get. Just take a minute to get to a place where you can sit down and close your eyes and place your feet on the floor. Just notice your feet on the floor.

A (29:55)

Got it.

B (29:56)

Notice feeling your back. Back up against the chair and you can be relaxed and take a deep breath in through your nose and hold. And out through your mouth and continuing to take deep breaths. I invite you to place your hands either on your stomach or your heart or your legs.

A (30:26)

I chose my heart.

B (30:27)

Yes. And just feel. Just notice the warmth of your hands wherever they are. Just notice the warmth of your hands over your heart or your stomach or your legs, wherever they're resting. And just feel that connection. And continuing with the deep breath, notice any places of tension in your body.

A (30:53)

My neck.

B (30:54)

Your neck. So you can take a deep breath in and you can roll your neck around comfortably and slowly. For many of us, we keep a lot of tension in our neck and shoulders. You might want to take a deep breath in and roll your shoulders up and back down and breathe out. And keeping your eyes closed and your body relaxed, I'm going to Read some affirmations that you can read to your. Or read to yourself or say to yourself in your mind, it is normal and healthy to grieve. It's okay not to have the answers today. My body is changing, and I am safe. I know my body and my body is wise. And if any of those affirmations seemed to resonate or stand out for you, just take another deep breath in and holding on to those words and exhale. And when you're ready, you can open your eyes and return to the room that you're in.

A (32:34)

That's really nice. Seriously, I might come back and listen to this again.

B (32:41)

Yeah, so that was a bit brushed just for the sake of, you know.

A (32:47)

For this. Yeah, sure.

B (32:48)

For this, for being on the podcast. But it's something that you can do. Honestly, a body scan is something that a lot of people build into their daily rhythm. In the morning, you could take 60 seconds and just connect with your body, noticing if comments are coming up from the day, whatever feelings or sensations you have and just connecting with them. So you're not fixing it or doing anything besides just acknowledging them.

A (33:18)

Yeah, I have that after. I have that after a massage, feeling like it's not as. Yeah, but I have. I have a little bit of it from that. It's really. It's kind of astonishing at how putting your feet on the floor is really helpful, too, because when you started, people don't know, but, like, we're recording and I've been, like, really listening to you, so I. I had my feet up on, like, the bottom of my chair a little bit. I crossed my legs, and I was sat way back when you started, and I didn't realize you wanted me to sit up and be forward. And as soon as I put my feet on the floor, I was like, oh, that makes it. Makes it feel different. It's interesting, you know? So that was great. My gosh.

B (33:54)

Oh, good. Well, yeah, some people feel more connected and grounded when they have their feet on the floor, but for some people, they feel more connected and energized when they tuck their feet up in, like, kind of sitting, crisscross. So just noticing in either way works.

A (34:11)

Whatever's better.

B (34:12)

Yeah. And these affirmations that I read do come from the book, and there are lots more in there. But I think having, you know, two. Two kind of memorized mantras, maybe something to say to people who make comments that are not trying to be ignorant, but maybe land as ignorant, having that ready, but then also having an internal mantra like, I know my body and my body is wise or my body is changing and I am safe. Having something to kind of ground and comfort yourself and acknowledging how you're doing and feeling is also really helpful.

A (34:49)

I. I chose the my body is changing and I am safe as my repeat at the end, just in case people are wondering. So that was really lovely. That's right. From the book, the Body grief book.

B (35:00)

Yes, Those affirmations are.

A (35:03)

Might sell a couple books because. I know, listen, as soon as we talked about it last time, I ordered one for Arden. So, yeah, I'm gonna put it on. It's a good book on our Christmas gift pile.

B (35:16)

So that is dismissal.

A (35:17)

Yeah. If you have time, I think we should go into shock and keep going.

B (35:21)

Okay. Yeah, let's keep going.

A (35:23)

All right. Okay.

B (35:24)

So the second stage, but again, might not follow dismissal immediately. But as we're talking about it, shock sounds like it is. And this might, if you're speaking it out, might sound like, I'm overwhelmed. I can't do this. This feels intolerable. That also, to me, sounds a little bit like burnout. Okay. But if we're thinking about it from either, you know, original, you know, stages of diagnosis or at another point in. In your journey with diabetes, it often will show up when there's no more room for dismissal or denial. Right. Like, there's no you. You've said I'm fine one too many times, and you are about to explode. And actually, Jane calls it the shock is the embodiment of a reality check, which I kind of love that. Right. Like, you. You've been kind of going, going, going, going, going, and there's been all this kind of these feelings that have been percolating underneath. And when shock shows up, it can feel very overwhelming, very violent, and almost feeling like, is this the end of life, or is this the end of what I felt like my life was going to be? And oftentimes there's a fear of allowing yourself to feel shock that you won't come out of it. Right. Like, if that's why you kind of are trying to stay in dismissal or denial of, like, how you're actually doing or feeling, because you feel like, oh, no, if I actually feel what I'm feeling, am I ever going to pull myself out of this shock stage? So this. This kind of wrestling, again, like, with. Is the shock, Is that diabetes burnout? I don't know, but I would. I would argue that it might look and feel very similar when you're just so overwhelmed, you feel like you can't keep going. And you just kind of want to check out. And with burnout, you know, you have all these feelings of dis. Of really emotional dysregulation and anger and rage and sadness and, and just overwhelm.

A (37:40)

Yeah.

B (37:41)

And that's what shock can look like too.

A (37:43)

That's such a, the, the, the shock is. Shows up when there's no more room for dismissal. That, that struck me. That was so. It's just like. It's Popeye, right? What did he say? That's all I can stand, so I can't stand no more.

B (38:02)

Oh, nice. Yeah, yeah.

A (38:04)

And then. Right. Is that Popeye?

B (38:06)

I don't know, but I know that phrase.

A (38:08)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that that's what it made me feel like. Like, that made me feel like when my wife is like, I can't. I've. I've taken this shit long enough. Like so. But, but so in diabetes specifically, you're dismissing, you're dismissing, you're dismissing. And then you can't dismiss anymore. And then you have to give it away. And that's when it appears like you're not paying attention any longer. That's the burnout.

B (38:35)

Yes, yes. And I think with, with signs that you might be in shock. You're. You, you are kind of surprised. Like you're kind of blindsided by these intense feelings of anxiety, the intense feelings, fear of the future. Um, and you might notice yourself disassociating more like with numbing, you know, with, with entertainment, drugs, alcohol, food, you might be distracting.

A (39:04)

Okay. You're.

B (39:05)

You're maybe just scrolling mindlessly on your social media. You're over scheduling, so you're trying to numb the feelings. And it can also feel more intense based on our expectations of life. And I, and when I say Jane, the author of the book, she makes this point and I think it's really important that we've talked about before in a lot of episodes, that we are, because of our culture, our society, we are kind of born into this mentality that this isn't how life is supposed to be. This isn't. I'm. I deserve a pain free life. And so if that is kind of the narrative that you are living with the shock, the feelings around shock are going to feel more intense.

A (39:52)

I see. Because your expectations, your expectation is so big and not realistic. And that is really a modern expectation, isn't it? Everything should be free. It should work, it should be there when I need it. I should never be in pain. I should never be cold or uncomfortable. And if I am, then the world Let me down. Everything's. Let me down at that point. Yes. Meanwhile, not that this is the conversation, but if I take you back 50 or 100 years and then, you know, and I, and I brought one of those people here for a week, they'd be like, I would never complain about this. Although, you know, in a month they'd be complaining about it. Yeah, yeah. So I have such a, like a side road I want to go down has nothing to do with this, so I'll just keep it to myself. But, but keep, keep going, please.

B (40:38)

Okay. Okay, well, hold, hold that if you want to. Okay. So the, the, the problem with the, it can work for a little bit. That's why we, we go back to it. Right? Like when you're, you're blindsided by all of these feelings, you go into this numbing, these numbing patterns to not feel these intense emotions and you can feel maybe stuck in these patterns of being in the shock stage because you feel it and then you disassociate by numbing and then you feel it. And then sometimes you might go back to, oh, but, but I'm okay, right? I, I'm, I'm fine. I can keep going. So those are, those are kind of the signs or signals that you might be in this shock stage. Okay, so what, what can you do? And she calls it that one of the, the practices is the shift down perspective. And this goes back to that kind of maybe entitlement that we are born into because of our, our culture and society, that we, we deserve a pain free, quote, normal life. And so if you acknowledge that, it might feel like a downer, like, well, maybe I shouldn't have that sense of entitlement, but it actually can become more empowering. So taking this to the diabetes lens, when we adjust our expectations, kind of the shift down perspective of what our bodies can and can't do with diabetes, that might feel like I'm encouraging dismissal of the pain or feeling like you're missing out, but really it's saying, okay, with diabetes I can do pretty much anything anyone else can. But there are going to be times when I'm going to have to sit and, and wait for my low to come up. There are going to be times when I have to wait for everyone while I change my sight, or there are going to be times when I'm going to, I'm just, I'm going to be stopped at security at the airport. I'm just going to, it's just going to happen. And so when, when we are operating from that having more realistic expectations of what our bodies can and can't do. That is. She's kind of suggesting that that is a place of empowerment as opposed to placing you and putting you back into this kind of either dismissal or the shock and rage and feeling of, wait, what? This happened again? Like, I got stopped at TSA again. How could this be? Now, with that said, I also want to highlight that as a teenager, when you're all your friends are running off to the corner store after school and you feel like you can't go, or you have to wait and pre bolus, or you say, screw it, you're going to go eat the Slurpee anyway. There's real feelings in that space. But the more we can adjust our expectations of what our bodies can and can't do, that is going to bring yourself to a place of peace and body trust. Right. Going back to that. Like trusting our bodies so our bodies can trust us to take care of it. Sorry.

A (44:01)

No, you. You know, you've said a number of times as we've been doing this that it's. That this, this applies to everything. I think that's some way. And I. The longer we talk about, the more I feel like that, that, that this isn't like we can focus this idea on diabetes or on like a health struggle, but it really, I mean, metaphysically feels like a bigger idea that I don't have my brain already, like, completely wrapped around yet that's really just kind of where I am right now, going through this.

B (44:33)

Yes. And I think the important, like, this lens of body grief, I think, and the stages that are applied from it are. Yes. Focused on, like, what you experience when you're going through life and something happens physically to your body and you are going to experience these stages. But I agree. Yeah. A lot of this can be applied to a lot of other things or a lot of these concepts.

A (45:02)

I just feel like after we're done making this series, it's not going to be for months or longer before I start adapting what we've really said to each other. And then, like, seeing how it applies, that I think I'm going to see this in other parts of life in the future, is what I'm getting at. You know, just, it's. It feels like a simple but bigger idea to me. At the same time, I don't have my head all the way around it yet.

B (45:25)

Yes. No, I, I agree. I. I feel that as well, which is why I think this was. The book is so great and why I'm. Is Feeling so strongly about applying it to diabetes, and it just, it does feel really significant.

A (45:38)

Right.

B (45:40)

So in this kind of what can you do when you're in noticing that you're in the shock stage or if we're saying it kind of feels like burnout a little bit as well? I love this tool of what can you do to feel 1 to 5% better? So when you're feeling so overwhelmed, so either fearful, anxious, or just burnt out, like, what small thing can you do not to like change your life and not to change, you know, we can't get rid of diabetes, but what can we do to make yourself feel 51 to 5% better? And those are small things, like, you know, the warm bath, like asking for a hug, playing your favorite song and dancing in the kitchen. Like something really small that doesn't take a lot of time, effort or resources.

A (46:31)

Are those soothing ideas that aren't bad for you? Because you mentioned soothing stuff before, like doom scrolling and stuff like that. I mean, alcohol, drugs. It really did open up a bigger idea in my head. Like, if everybody feels like this at some point, I mean, the instance of how many people drink to numbness is huge, right? In the country and across the world. The number of people who use drugs to disassociate, who gamble online or, you know, I mean, the amount of people I've been intersecting with, like, who describe themselves as having a. Some sort of like a masturbation thing that they can't break free of. Or like sex addictions. Yeah, addictions. Like, like my. My bigger question was, this is unfair to ask of you, so I'm not really asking it of you as much as I'm kind of putting it out there is what happens. Like, we say those things like, they're all bad, and I don't believe that they're not. But what if we didn't do them? Like, where would people be? Then they'd still feel the way they feel, but without the. Because we're saying, like, if everyone was enlightened enough to have these conversations, then maybe you could process this stuff and walk through it. But that feels fairly unrealistic to me as I'm sitting here talking. Like, so if everyone just stopped numbing themselves, like, what would it be? Would it would just be pandemonium in the streets? Like, would we be back to like the 1400s? Like, what you see what I'm saying? Like, I wonder where it would go.

B (47:56)

It's. I think it's a great question. And I think the problem is that the numbing Works. It works, right? Like when you're feeling overwhelmed and you want to disassociate with whatever your choice of disassociation activity, it works. But the problem is that all you're doing, right?

A (48:18)

No, yeah. Obviously you don't want to just be ignoring yourself into the grave. But if, when you stop and even look how people's lives are set up with, like television, for example, like, just take it, forget before social media, you get to the end of the day, you. You, maybe you're disappointed with your job choices. Maybe you're looking across the room at a spouse you wish you didn't get married to. You look at your dumb kid like, who knows what? Like, you know, your dog limps, whatever is pissing you off, right? You're like, you know, let me turn on Archie Bunker's place and have a beer and get the hell out of this. Right? Right. Like, maybe that's. And I don't know, like, it just. It feels very. It feels very human. You know, everybody wants. I almost said this earlier and that it just didn't fit anywhere. I said, like, if you. If we went back in time and found somebody, brought them up 100 years, showed them life, they wouldn't complain. And I said, oh, you know what? They would eventually. Because people are like, hardwired to want better, which I think probably drives society forward in a really positive way. I think macro, that's a great human trait. And micro, it's really devastating. Like, you know what I mean? Like, you, you grow up, you go to college, you learn a thing, you meet a person, they say, I love you, they actually mean it. You make a baby, and then instead of sitting and enjoying it, you go, what's next? What do I have to conquer now? You know? And then, you can't possibly do that. You've pretty much already exhausted what's available to an average person, you know, like, you've done all the things. Instead of sitting and enjoying it, you're just mad at yourself for not accomplishing this other faceless, nameless thing. You don't even know what it is. You just think there's more somewhere. The desire for more keeps. I think it keeps us alive and it kills us at the same time. I hope that makes sense. Right? I'm not out of my mind, but that's how it feels to me.

B (50:01)

Yes. The desire for more can leave you feeling empty when you achieve the thing that you thought was going to bring you all the pleasure.

A (50:12)

Yeah, it happens to me. I just got done telling somebody recently. I Feel bored making the podcast recently. And it's not the podcast. I love making the podcast. It's that I've gotten it down to such a process where it doesn't take as much as my time as it used to. And now I'm just like, well, what am I supposed to be? Should I be out conquering something else? I'm like in my mid-50s. I kind of don't want to conquer anything else. I'm good, you know what I mean? But I can't just be happy with it. And that's a real basic idea. But when you're looking. You know what I mean? When you look across the room at a spouse and you're like, that person loves me. But you know what they do? They do this thing that I hate. And, like, you're like, how's that the thing you get focused on? You know? I don't know. I think people are in trouble, like.

B (50:56)

And thanks, Scott.

A (50:58)

No, no, no, no, no. But I think it's good to know it because then you can do things like this to. I mean, that 1 to 5% better idea. That's an awesome way to think about it, you know, like, being alive is what it is. Can I make it 5% better right now? I should take a minute and do that. It makes a lot of sense to.

B (51:15)

Me, which, well, I love. It kind of is connected to the cognitive behavioral therapy. And one of the distortions is all or nothing thinking, right? Like, I'm only. Things are only going to be better when diabetes is cured or, you know, whatever you can. We are often stuck in all or nothing thinking. And so I Love this. The 1 to 5% better tool kind of eliminates that all or nothing thinking of like, okay, yeah, you know what? I can do this thing. I can play this song and dance and see what happens. So I think this is our. The kind of the third practice. Noticing if you're in shock and you're noticing that maybe you're disassociating, you're numbing, you're feeling so overwhelmed, fearful, anxious, you have to feel the feelings. And this is. It's hard because it is so easy to numb. But in order to move through, is necessary to feel all your feelings. But when we're in shock, you know, historically our bodies are wired to create safety. So we are often trying to fully fight, freeze, fawn and move, you know, move away from the feelings in any way possible. But in order to move through shock, you have to feel the feelings we have. You know, we've done Breathing techniques before I can go through those or not we can. Do you want me to list through those examples? Okay.

A (52:56)

The five, four, three, two, one method we've done.

B (52:59)

Yeah, the five, four, three, two,. One is the grounding technique that I think we recorded a whole episode on that one. Other techniques. So when you're feeling like you, gosh, I just want it. I want to numb or disassociate, and the other techniques are not working. I know we. We all know about breathing techniques, but they. They are important because they work and they can connect you to that feeling. So the three ones that I often teach, the. The five finger breathing. So when you're holding up your hand, you're tracing with your pointer finger of your other hand up one finger. And as you're tracing it up, you're inhaling. So your pointer finger is going up your thumb. And then you're inhaling. And then you're pausing and holding at the top of your thumb. And then your pointer finger is tracing down your thumb on the other side, and you're exhaling at that point and then pausing at the bottom. And then you're tracing your pointer finger up your other thumb. Pointer finger. Am I just. I'm usually demonstrating this visually.

A (54:06)

Am I saying I'm trying not to look at you so I can see if I can follow you? I'm on the right finger. I hope that.

B (54:15)

Okay, so then you're inhaling, tracing, and then pausing at the top, and then your fingers tracing down. So basically you're. You're kind of moving your pointer finger up and down in between your fingers and inhaling while you go up, pausing at the top, exhaling. When you go down, you're doing this very slowly. And the reason why I like this better than just taking some deep breaths is because your mind. You're interrupting your thoughts. Because your mind has to be intentional with moving your finger up and down the hand. You're feeling the sensation while then also breathing, which helps your nervous system calm down.

A (54:57)

And the sensation's really nice because I think that's not a part that you get touched on very often. Like the sides of your fingers. Yeah, it's lovely.

B (55:02)

Yeah. The side of your fingers and then in between the. What do you call this?

A (55:06)

The webbing.

B (55:07)

The webbing.

A (55:08)

Did you say crevice?

B (55:09)

Yeah, the crevice. Oh, my gosh. I gotta work on this. Saying this audibly and not.

A (55:16)

Eric is practicing on us before she charges someone.

B (55:22)

No, I usually do it with someone sitting in the room.

A (55:24)

I understand you don't have to be. You don't have to be verbal about it when you're showing. You just show them right in, hold down, out. I got you. Don't worry, people. Understood. Also, while you're laughing, the 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 method is something that I just suggested to somebody in the Facebook group last night. It's episode 913. So. And there are people I've heard from numbers, a number of people on that episode, but one of them told me that that episode helped them get through the passing of a parent. So, you know, I, I think it's a, it's a great thing to know about.

B (55:56)

Yes. When, when the grief is so overwhelming. I think just looking at, okay, what can I do for the next 15 minutes? And then you. And you maybe do one of these breathing techniques or the grounding. 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. And then you ask yourself again, okay, what can I do for the next 15 minutes? Like really chunking it out in place.

A (56:17)

Slowly in place of scrolling on TikTok or, or 1 of those other things that is less valuable for you personally.

B (56:24)

Yes. And there might be a time and place to do that, to give your mind a break, a shut off. But then, but then. Yeah, and then like, so as you were kind of, you know, is there a better way? Yeah, so perhaps it's okay to, to do some of those, you know, numbing exercise or activities.

A (56:44)

Do you know, coming back. Do you know that the person, the guy that invented the doom scroll, he's publicly apologized to society for it. Seriously? You used to scroll to the bottom of an app and you'd get to the end. And he's the one that said, what if we just. It never stopped. And he says now, in retrospect, he wished he never would have done that.

B (57:06)

Wow.

A (57:06)

Yeah. Interesting.

B (57:07)

That's powerful. I don't even know who that is.

A (57:09)

You'd have to look it up. I literally just saw him talking about it the other day. Um, you know, and they were describing. I was looking at social media, how it's changed over 20 years and that it's not. It's not really in any way the way it was. It used to be like, oh, like, I'll go on Instagram and see my friends pictures. That doesn't work anymore. You know, I go on Facebook and I'll find things that I'm interested in. Doesn't really work that way anymore. You get delivered stuff. Now it's all about keeping you in there so that they can sell ad space off your ass. Like, you know, and I guess that in the early goings that they realized that if there was something there, people would keep going. It's almost like a slot machine. Like your, your phone's almost like a slot machine. You don't have to put a quarter into. You just put your life, you put your life into it instead. And so anyway, it was just interesting. You could probably find him talking about it somewhere.

B (57:59)

Okay. Yeah, that is interesting.

A (58:01)

Yeah. So we want to keep breathing.

B (58:05)

Breathing techniques.

A (58:06)

Yeah, I was going to say breathing techniques.

B (58:09)

One other one that I just want wanted to say that, you know, there's box breathing, which is fairly simple. You could also just look that up. It's drawing a box with your, or square or rectangle, whatever you want with your finger. And you're inhaling while you draw up. Exhaling while you move your finger across. And again let it, letting it all go. Breathing. I also love like practicing that at a red light. You're just, you're inhaling and moving your shoulders up and then letting everything down at a, you know, just kind of habit sharing. That's not the right word. Doing things at the same time.

A (58:50)

I do the double inhale thing to fall back asleep. If I wake up in the middle of the night and I, I get in that spot where your brain starts racing. I actually had this happen to me last night where it was like two in the morning and I thought I should just get up and start living, start living again. And I was like, no, no, no, don't do that. So it's like, like inhaling, like it's like a certain percentage through your nose and you kind of add like a sniff in and then slowly exhale out. But you kind of push it out. Like I, I, to be honest with you, it's like a, it's a Andrew Huberman thing that I saw him doing one time about like he's like, if you, if you have chumming fall asleep, like try this breathing technique and it's just sort of like, like it's a double inhale, right? Like the second one, like you push and then you pushed out really hard. And I'll tell you, man, it's. I don't know if I'm tricking myself or not, but knock on wood, it works for me. So. And then, and then moving your eyes gently from side to high, side to side behind closed eyelids. I also find that really helpful for going back to sleep. So anyway, look.

B (59:49)

That's a good one. There's also the four, six, seven.

A (59:53)

What's that?

B (59:54)

Four, six, seven. Which I'm Giggling to. With the six, seven.

A (59:59)

Oh, oh. I was thinking three, six, nine. The monkey drank wine, but go ahead.

B (60:04)

Four, four, six, seven. Not to be. Yeah. Confused with six, seven, which, you know, all the kids are saying.

A (60:13)

I don't even know what it means. So we're okay?

B (60:15)

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. The. You're inhaling for four, holding for six, and exhaling for seven. You're. A lot of people's Apple watches will guide you through that. That's another good one. Okay.

A (60:27)

Okay.

B (60:28)

So why. Why are we doing breathing techniques? Noticing. If you're in the shock stage, helping regulate your nervous system so then you can connect with your feelings and remembering that feelings are not facts. They are designed to encourage you to feel them, to do just that. Right. To feel them and not let them drive you. They are not facts.

A (60:53)

Feelings are not facts. What. But we feel. That's how it occurs to us. Though I don't want to keep saying feelings. Right. The way I feel feels like it's a rule. That rule makes it so that whatever's happening to me externally is being done to me now because it's how I feel. Is there an example of that that you could use that comes up often for people when they think their feelings or facts?

B (61:15)

Right. Well, I would go to the. The cognitive triangle from cbt. Right. So that we feel like our thoughts. Well, this is actually true. Our thoughts impact how we feel, which impact what we do or behave, and vice versa. Right. But when we are allowing either our feelings to drive what we think or what we do. Like, so I'm feeling. Ray, I'm feeling. Let's say I'm feeling victimized. And my thought is either what did I do to get this? Why me? Then my behavior will be. I'm just going to ignore it.

A (61:59)

Okay.

B (62:00)

I'm going to. Versus okay, I'm feeling. I'm feeling, like, victimized here. Like, kind of like I'm. I'm thinking about diabetes. Like, I'm feeling like, why did I get this? I'm feeling sad, acknowledging, okay, I'm feeling victimized. Or I'm feeling like, why me? Or my thought is why me? Say, okay, that's how I'm feeling. That's okay. But I'm not going to acknowledge that as a fact and respond accordingly. I'm going to allow myself to feel that. So I'm going to cry. I'm going to journal. I am going to let myself engage in that feeling. Like punch a pillow, talk it out, seek, you know, a. A therapist. Seek a safe friend who you can Process that feeling with. Write it out in a journal. And not letting that drive your behavior of being, you know, raging towards anyone who will listen or ignoring your diabetes. Right. So those are all things that happen, and that's okay. So letting. Instead of acknowledging, okay, this is how I'm feeling, and this is a fact, I'm gonna let it drive my behavior. I'm just gonna feel it.

A (63:14)

Yeah. Okay.

B (63:14)

But that's hard to do. I notice. I just. I'm just going. Just feel it.

A (63:18)

Just feel it. Sure. Well, I'll tell you, just after doing those couple of breathing exercises, I feel more focused on what we're doing right now. I know I'm not making that up. Like, I. It's not that I wasn't before, but it's a little later in the day for me. I was a little sleepy when we started, and I don't feel that way anymore. It's so much so that I looked it up while you were talking. I asked just like, what is. What are those breathing exercises doing? And it said it regulates your nervous system, amplifies your inner sensing, focuses your attention, changes your physiology. And it's immediate. It says it's portable. Like, you don't need, like, gym equipment for it or a therapist or something like that. And it's something that can help you in the moment. So I don't know. I wish I would remember that more often. I don't know how to remind myself to do that. That's my biggest concern is because I always see it help me in different ways, and then when I could really be using doesn't come top of mind to me all the time.

B (64:17)

Right. And it's something that we all hear all the time, like, practice your breathing, do some deep breathing. I think habit stacking is what I was trying to say earlier. Connecting some of these breathing techniques with things you do every day, like, don't wait. You know, trying to not wait until you're already into that, maybe either panic or overwhelm to do it. Obviously that helps at that time. But constantly integrating some of these techniques, whether it's at the red light or while you're brushing your teeth, although that might be hard, but before you get.

A (64:51)

There, do it before you do it preventatively.

B (64:54)

Yes. You're building that into your muscle memory and kind of integrating it into your daily rhythm.

A (65:01)

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me.

B (65:03)

Yeah.

A (65:03)

Well, I'll try harder. I don't know if I. I don't know what kind of success I'll have, but I. I Mean, I've. I've changed my cell phone to some other things. I think I could do that too. It really just is, like, even as I'm sitting here saying it, like, I do the breathing thing overnight. If I can't fall asleep, like, I know it works for me, and then I get into a situation where I could and maybe employ it, and like you said, either it's too late. But how do you know, Erica? How do you know that you need it preventatively? Because, yeah, I don't know that I'm upset until I'm saying something stupid. You know what I mean? If five seconds before I pop off like an idiot, you said to me, hey, Scott, how are you feeling? I'd be like, oh, I'd say I'm fine. How am I supposed to. Should I put myself on a schedule, as the British would say, so it doesn't happen? You know what I mean? What would you do?

B (65:55)

Oh, I think that that is. How do you do it before you need it? I think that's part of the. Just integrating it into, like, any kind of, you know, behavioral pattern so that your body remembers, like, so now you know, your body remembers to do it at night when you wake up in the middle of the night, because you now have done it a couple times and you have maybe found success with it. So the more you practice during the day, even when you quote unquote, don't need is built kind of into your. Kind of, basically your neural pathways. Like, oh, yeah, when I deep breathe, I feel this way. I feel more alert, more grounded. My nervous system is more regulated. So is that going to also cue you when your, your heart rate starts to go and people are making comments and you're wanting to pop off? I mean, that's. It's hard to do in. When you're already starting to be elevated and escalated. But eventually, the more you can kind of have that awareness. Yeah, it's. I mean, it's. It's hard to deep breathe when you're about to engage into, you know.

A (67:01)

Yeah, it makes you. It makes you wistful for the time when we just punched each other and then it was over, which I didn't live through even, but. And I'm half joking and half saying that, like, we're, like, you know, we, we like human beings are learning stuff, building, growing, moving away from older ideas, and that continually happens over and over again. You don't get to choose what part you're born in. Like, you don't get to choose if you're the, like, six shooters in the street part. Or if they're the just, like, we'll just hit each other to one of us dies part, and then you win. Or if you're in the part where you have to go to therapy and do breathing exercises, like, it makes me wonder, like, what's the part I missed? Like, what did I just miss by being born in 1971? Like, if I was born in 2040, like, where would people be then? Because I'm not going to know. Right? What is that? Like, 15 years from now? I'll be 80?

B (67:55)

Yeah.

A (67:56)

I mean, I'll be alive, but I'm making finger quotes. And so I'm not going to be digging into the new things that's going on at that point. I'm just going to be, like, wondering how Drew Carey is still running the Price Is right when he's 125 years old. So, like, I wonder. I, I'm always going to wonder. I've said this thing a million times. I would give away the last 10 years of my life to come back for a year every 10 years just to see, like, what's happening, like, moving forward. And I wouldn't want to go way in the future because I think it would fry my brain and I wouldn't be able to keep up with it. But just for the next hundred years, I'd love to see it just a little bit here and there, like, well, how did things change? I think I could conceptualize that at least. But anyway, it makes me wonder this. Like, this is the part you're in right now. Our IQs are at a place. Our emotional intelligence is in a place. Our societal expectations are in such a place. This is right now how we're dealing. But it will change moving forward. There'll be a day you'll look back. Not in our lifetime, but somebody will listen to this one day in a time capsule and go, these idiots thought, like, breathing was the answer. How come they didn't know about this? Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, this is. I, I, I really love this. I'm so glad that you found this book and that you're thinking about how to apply it for people with diabetes. I'm, I'm, I'm thrilled we're doing this together.

B (69:15)

Thank you. Me, too. Thank you.

A (69:17)

Seriously. Wonderful. I'll talk to you soon.

B (69:19)

Okay, bye.

A (69:27)

US Med sponsored this this episode of the Juice Box podcast. Check them out@usmed.com juicebox or by calling 888-721-1514. Get your free benefits check and get started today with us Med. A huge thanks to my longest sponsor, Omnipod. Check out the Omnipod 5 now with my link omnipod.com juicebox you may be eligible for a free starter kit. A free Omnipod 5 starter kit at my link. Go check it out omnipod.com Juicebox terms and conditions apply. Full terms and conditions can be found@ omnipod.com juicebox check out my Algorithm Pumping series to help you make sense of automated insulin delivery systems like Omnipod 5, Loop, Medtronic 780G Twist, Tandem Control IQ, and much more. Each episode will dive into the setup, features and real world usage tips that can transform your daily type 1 diabetes management. We cut through the jargon, share personal experiences, and show you how these algorithms can simplify and streamline your care. If you're curious about automated insulin pumping, go find the Algorithm Pumping series in the Juice Box Podcast easiest way juicebox podcast.com and go up into the menu, click on Series and it'll be right there. Thank you so much for listening. I'll be back very soon with another episode of the Juice Box Podcast. If you're not already subscribed or following the podcast in your favorite audio app like Spotify or Apple Podcasts, please do that now. Seriously, just to hit, follow or subscribe will really help the show. If you go a little further in Apple Podcasts and set it up so that it downloads all new episodes, I'll be your best friend. And if you leave a five star review, ooh, I'll probably send you a Christmas card. Would you like a Christmas card?