A (4:48)

So a shame or embarrassment, even that could come with the fact that your body's doing something that you would not have chosen for it to do, but it's happening anyway, and now it's going to inconvenience you and by extension, other people around you. And then you're apologizing for that, but the underlying aspect of that is that you're really apologizing for something you can't control that you wouldn't have put in this situation to begin with. Does that feel. That's about right? Right?

B (5:17)

Yes.

A (5:17)

Yeah. Okay.

B (5:19)

Something that's out of your control, you also might be trying to avoid feeling what you're feeling in the moment. Right. So you're trying to just, okay, I'm sorry. And again, it can be very convenient or socially acceptable, but when you're in this stage, it actually doesn't lessen the pain. Even though you think you're trying to dismiss actually what's happening. Again, whether you're trying to accommodate other people's comfort or your own, really, you're in this space of not allowing yourself to feel what you feel or give your body what it needs in that moment.

A (5:57)

It feels a little to me, like when I hear adults say, this is a thing that's been said to me so many times over the years and I never don't feel terrible hearing somebody say it out loud when they refer to themselves as a bad diabetic. Right. Like, it feels like. I don't even know what. It almost feels like they're trying to get out ahead of your under. I don't know. I don't know how to put it. It's such a complicated thing. But they're apologizing for not being perfect based on some set of standards that somebody set up for them. And gosh, I have to dig deep into how I feel about this when it happens. When somebody says it to me, I feel badly for them because I feel bad that a. They didn't. That they don't feel like they're doing a good job for themselves, that it's possible that somebody set up an expectation for them that was unfair to begin with, that they didn't prepare them for dealing with and that they feel compelled to externalize that to strangers or other people. That's the part I find heartbreaking and I can't tell you why. I just know that I do. And this makes me feel like that too. You know that you are sitting on a park bench waiting to not be dizzy anymore, looking at your friends, realizing everybody wants to be ahead of where you were going, but they're not there waiting with you. It appears to them that you are at fault, but you're not a willing participant in what's happening right now. I mean, I guess what we're trying to help people feel is the, the separation between their decisions and things that are out of their control. Right. Like you don't want to be your body. Is that. Am I getting to anything here or am I not making any sense?

B (7:37)

Yeah. Okay, so you are making sense. I'm going to please kind of include what you just shared and then share an example that just happened right before we were recording.

A (7:49)

Oh, that's right.

B (7:49)

I noticed that I, my, I had a diagonal ink arrow down and I was 117 and I noticed I didn't have my glucose tablets on my desk like they are. And what did I say? I said, I'm sorry.

A (8:02)

Oh, that's right, you apologized.

B (8:04)

I said, I'm sorry, we can't record yet. I need to go to the other room and grab my, my glucose tablets.

A (8:09)

Right.

B (8:10)

So in that moment, I felt ill prepared. I felt badly because I, I was going to have you wait for another.

A (8:16)

Minute or two and I have experience, so I didn't think twice about it. But other people are like, oh, great, the lady with diabetes is holding up the thing.

B (8:27)

Right.

A (8:28)

And you're aware of that?

B (8:30)

Yes.

A (8:30)

Yes. Okay.

B (8:32)

But I instinctively apologized because then I realized, oh, no, is this going to be inconvenient for you because I'm not prepared?

A (8:41)

What's the difference when that inconvenience stems from your body? And not like, what if you just needed a pen and you realize you didn't have a pen? You're like, oh, I'm sorry, I forgot to bring a pen. I got to go grab a pen. And you got up and you walked away. That wouldn't feel the same way as, hey, I have to go get glucose tablets now, because my body doesn't regulate my glucose properly. And so that connection point is the unfair connection. Cause at least you could take responsibility for forgetting to bring a pen, for example, but you can't take responsibility for your pancreas not working well or the fact that you have to use insulin or other means to control it. And sometimes you get low afterwards. So that's what this. That part right there, Whatever that is. That's what this whole series is about.

B (9:26)

Yes.

A (9:27)

That spot.

B (9:28)

Yes. So in that spot right there. Thankfully, I think in that context, I knew you would understand. I still felt like I wanted to apologize for, you know, creating a pause.

A (9:39)

Right.

B (9:40)

And I did have a minute of like, oh, gosh, I thought I, you know, I really tried to be, particularly when we record, to be really stable in. In a good place with my. In a healthy range. And so I had a second of like, oh, what if I go low? You know, this is. This all. This is like a split second. What if I go low? And even just now, as we're talking about it, I was looking, I'm like, okay, no, I'm good. I'm stable. But it can slide so quickly into that shame. And that's what we're going to get into if we're, you know, okay. Oh, I'm a bad. I'm a bad diabetic. I didn't prepare in that moment.

A (10:18)

Did you think, oh, God, what did I do before that caused this low?

B (10:21)

No, because I knew I gave a bolus of two units earlier. So you already knew what, you bring it down.

A (10:25)

Right, Right.

B (10:27)

That might have been a little aggressive, but actually, it worked out just fine.

A (10:30)

You didn't end up needing the tablets?

B (10:32)

Oh, I took two. Yeah, yeah. Oh, no, no, I'm stable.

A (10:36)

No, I needed them. So you ate. You ate them on the way back to the desk?

B (10:39)

I chewed them very quickly on the way back.

A (10:42)

Wow. Boy, that is a lot. I. Okay. Good. You. You keep moving forward. Thank you.

B (10:46)

So, yeah, it's in that. That space. Right. And that. I'm sorry. You know, I'm sorry for needing to take a few minutes, too. I mean, that's in my notes as an example. And this is a natural part of living with type one. We are negotiating these things all the time. And what we're wanting to recognize, though, like, the example of maybe you're leaving your room. Leaving the room to site change or inject or treat lows. I did all of those things. Maybe you're. That. That feeling of, oh, no, I can't start the meeting yet, cause I'm low. Or the feeling that you have to. If you're playing in a sports game and you have to sub out because you're going low or high and. And you feel that responsibility. Right. And like. I'm sorry, should I keep going? Sorry.

A (11:33)

You were gonna say something out.

B (11:35)

Yeah.

A (11:35)

Do you know that, like, you've had other. I mean, we've done this a number of times together, like, over the years, right. You've had to get up and walk away a number of other times. This is the only time you muted your microphone and shut your camera off when you walked away.

B (11:47)

Oh, really?

A (11:48)

Yeah. Cause it struck me, I was like, that's odd. She never does that. But now I'm wondering if you didn't subconsciously not want me to hear. You have to open the tablets or take the. Or, like, chew or chew or whatever. I wonder. Like, I don't know, maybe I'm. I'm looking too deeply, but you've walked away, you know, half a dozen times to go talk to your husband or figure something out. You've never shut the microphone off or shut off the camera before, so very interesting.

B (12:15)

Well, this wasn't on purpose for the illustration, but it's kind of.

A (12:20)

Listen, I've been making this podcast a long time, and one thing I know for sure is that a new example comes up every day for me to talk to. So, yeah, that's not surprising.

B (12:28)

That could be all of that. Or maybe I just didn't want you to see the mess in my office. I don't know.

A (12:33)

I don't know. I just. It was very. I just really. I found myself thinking when you walked away. She's never done that before.

B (12:38)

So anyway, and another one other quick story, but you probably. I might have already. If I already shared this. Please tell me. But the flying back and forth for college, and I would constantly. In the beginning. So this would be, you know, five years no, six. Six years into diagnosis, and I would go to the airplane bathroom to take my blood sugar and inject because I was not comfortable doing it in bringing in the airplane seat. Now, after freshman year, I went on a pump, and I still remember going to the bathroom, which is highly. You know, that's pretty gross. To take my blood sugar and then bolus from my pump. It was around halfway through sophomore, junior year that I said, this is gross. I'm not going to apologize if this makes somebody else uncomfortable.

A (13:32)

Right.

B (13:32)

And so I remember putting down that trade table and doing my thing. I probably didn't wipe it off.

A (13:38)

But you didn't go into the pee place.

B (13:39)

I didn't go into the past. And so I have this vivid moment of that transition of, like, you know what this is? I'm not going to apologize for this, but that took me, that was, you know, seven years. That's something into living with Type one. And so I just share that and that everyone's on their own journey. You don't have to be. You know, we always talk about the devices, you know, wearing them publicly or not, and there's no right or wrong way. But I think what I would invite you to consider is what, Noticing the. Why, like, what, are you embarrassed? Are you worried about making other people feel uncomfortable? Um, and reflecting on that. Is there shame underneath some of those actions?

A (14:22)

Yeah. I see it in so many different places. And the strangest. First of all, I want to say that I. Is that the Diabetes Mile High Club, like, testing your blood sugar in the bathroom of the airplane, is that the equivalent of that?

B (14:34)

Oh, my gosh. I know. It's. It's still. It's really kind of gross to think about, but I did it.

A (14:38)

Yeah, not. And it's funny, too, because you were younger, so I get how it could have happened. And I was older when Arden was diagnosed. I would never let Arden go in the bathroom to do anything. Like, I would, I would always just say, like, no, like, just do it here. I don't care if people are uncomfortable. I couldn't possibly care less. Like, you are not going in the bathroom to, you know, to do this. I, I. The way I used to put it in the, in the blog is we're not going in the bathroom to open up a hole into the inside of our body. Like, like it in a restaurant. Like, that just seems like a bad idea. This episode is sponsored by Tandem Diabetes Care. And today I'm going to tell you about Tandem's newest pump and algorithm, the Tandem MOBI system. With Control IQ technology features Autobolus, which can cover missed meal boluses and help prevent hyperglycemia. It has a dedicated sleep activity setting and is controlled from your personal iPhone. Tandem will help you to check your benefits today through my link tandomdiabetes.com juicebox this is going to help you to get started with Tandem's smallest pump yet that's powered by its best algorithm ever. Control IQ technology helps to keep blood sugars in range by predicting glucose levels 30 minutes ahead and it adjusts insulin accordingly. You can wear the tandemobi in a number of ways. Wear it on body with a patch like adhesive sleeve that is sold separately. Clip it discreetly to your clothing or slip it into your pocket head now to my link tandem diabetes.com juicebox to check out your benefits and get started today. I used to hate ordering my daughter's diabetes supplies. I never had a good experience and it was frustrating. But it hasn't been that way for a while. Actually for about three years now because that's how long we've been using US Med, usmed.com/juicebox or call 888-721-1514. US Med is the number one distributor for Freestyle Libre systems nationwide. They are the number one specialty distributor for Omnipod Dash, the number one fastest growing tandem distributor nationwide. The number one rated distributor in Dexcom customer satisfaction surveys. They have served over 1 million people with diabetes since 1996 and they always provide 90 days worth of supplies and fast and free shipping. USMED carries everything from insulin pumps and diabetes testing supplies to the latest CGMs like the Libre 3 and Dexcom G7. They accept Medicare nationwide and over 800 private insurers. Find out why USMED has an A rating with a Better business bureau at usmed.com/juicebox or just call them at 888-721-1514. Get started right now and you'll be getting your supplies the same way we do.

B (17:42)

And did she do you think she internalized that and adopted that mindset of not not apologizing?

A (17:48)

She does not give a who sees her with her diabetes. But I will say this, that last night she did tell a story about like having to change a pump or something and she, she had to leave where she was. And then I guess something happened and I guess she realized that it was gonna be an inconvenience and she said no, I'm not gonna do that. I'll wait here. And it was her boyfriend that said no. Take care of Yourself, not the group. But she was gonna defer something about her own care to help other people not feel inconvenienced by her. That is interesting. It just did happen last night. How about that? Okay.

B (18:30)

Yes. So that's. And that's just such a tough space. Right. Because you want to be considerate of other people's timeline, whatever it may be, comfort, expectations. And yet it somehow feels like it'd be selfish to ask them to wait.

A (18:48)

Yeah, no, I think there's. And you're not wrong. It is something about the diabetes piece of it, too, because she is not that. I mean, she's considerate. She's actually very considerate of other people's time. But I do wonder how much of it is the fact that you don't want to give in to the diabetes. Is that one way to think of it? I don't know. Does that make sense? You don't want it to be the lever that causes the problem.

B (19:13)

Right. Or have it almost as a control situation. Right.

A (19:19)

It's in control of you. That's it. You don't want the diabetes to be in control of you.

B (19:25)

Right.

A (19:25)

You being polite to people, that's fine. But you don't want to be forced to do it. Okay. And then the connection to it being back to your body is the part that makes you feel helpless.

B (19:37)

Right?

A (19:37)

Okay.

B (19:37)

Right.

A (19:38)

Okay.

B (19:38)

Yeah. I guess there are so many different emotions that can happen in that moment when you notice yourself feeling like you need to apologize for something related to your diabetes. Right. And. And yet we are forced to have to negotiate that space all of the time, and then that can lead to the shame, the blame, the anger, the sadness, the grief.

A (20:01)

I gotcha.

B (20:02)

And I think that's part of. You know, we hear a lot about the experience of beeping and making noise in quiet spaces, and so often, myself included, feel like we need to apologize for that.

A (20:19)

Either.

B (20:19)

That noise, I mean, this is all very similar examples.

A (20:23)

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B (21:34)

Yes, and I'm even hyper aware of my. I mean, that I wear the Moby and the actual clicking sound is a little bit louder than the T Slim. Like not much, but I'm aware of it even when I'm sitting with clients who have diabetes and I can hear their clicking and I can hear my clipping clicking. And I'm not necessarily embarrassed because I know they know, particularly in that situation. But you're just so hyper aware it's in your head.

A (22:01)

Yeah. Geez. Is it wrong for me to say tandemdiabetes.com juicebox if you'd like to look into a movie or a T Slim. Thank you very much. Keep going, Erica. Thank you. Not wrong.

B (22:10)

Not wrong. I love my Moby. The sense of even just like beeping. One of the first things you hear when people go to a conference almost, the first response is it feels so good to hear all the beeping in the room because it normalizes your experience if your alarms are going off or whatever.

A (22:26)

Right.

B (22:27)

And I think that's why, you know, it is so important and effective in our T1D. Our diabetes community at large is so unique and special and tight because you don't have to have that gut response of needing to apologize in that space. There's automatic understanding and normalizing. And so if you're, if I think if you are in a space where you feel like you're living in this world of needing to apologize either to make other people feel comfortable or yourself kind of regulate your own emotions, but you're not enjoying that experience. I think that would be a wise choice if you're able to, to go to an in person conference or event to experience that. Oh, I don't, I don't need to do that here.

A (23:14)

Because you can give that away when you walk in.

B (23:16)

That's right.

A (23:17)

Right. Like, because everyone here just like, you didn't need to apologize to me to walk away to get your tablets. Everyone in that scenario is me. And I'm just like, yeah, it's Fine. I don't. I wouldn't think twice about it.

B (23:27)

Like, right.

A (23:28)

Never. You know, because I've. I've lived so closely to it. My. Oh, yeah, okay.

B (23:33)

And your automatic response was actually going back to this first example was, oh, yeah, no, no worries. No, no problem. Like, I just turned to my other.

A (23:40)

Computer and started doing something else. I was like, well, I have time to do this now. Yeah, but other people do. I guess. I know that. But until you sit down, like, we are now in a quiet moment, just talking between the two of us, and to really, like, for me, I'm aware of it, but it's not a thing I think of because it's not happening to me. And even when it happens, when Ardyn's with me, I'm not worried. Like, I don't have that gear where I'm not embarrassed or feel ashamed. Like, I'm worried for her, but, like, not for myself, because I really don't care what people think. And I hope that she feels that way, too, but I don't think. I don't think there's any way to actually 100% feel that way. I think on some level, you're always fooling yourself a little bit if you say you don't care what other people think. You know, it's tough.

B (24:30)

Yeah, it is tough. I mean, it's human nature to care what people think to a certain degree.

A (24:35)

My son is 25. He said to me the other day, is there a way to take this label off this jacket? And I was like, what? He goes, oh, it's my jacket. I wear. He snowboards. He's like, it's my snowboarding jacket. It's a great jacket. Keeps me really warm. I love the pockets. It's really comfortable and everything. He goes, but. And I'm like, what do you want to take the name off it for? And he's like, real serious snowboarders see it as, like, not good gear. And I went, do you really care about that? And he paused and didn't even know how to answer me. And he was like, I guess not. And I was like, okay. Because I don't think of him as a person who's running around like, that's a strange thing to me. Like, when he said that, he stopped me. I was like, what the heck just happened here? But it's a good example of it, outside of the diabetes. Like, that's a thing that occurred to him at some point. When I started doing this, I bought this jacket. I didn't know this wasn't the end thing to do. I'm a much better snowboarder now. And I don't want those people to.

B (25:28)

Think I'm not very normal. Very normal.

A (25:31)

And that's all unspoken in your head. You know what I mean? I don't know. Well, don't worry. AI will take over all of our jobs and you'll have plenty of time to think about yourself and get this all worked out. I'm sure it'll be fine.

B (25:44)

Noticing you said it was all in his thoughts. So if you are noticing that you are very mindful and thinking a lot about what you know, if they look at your device and you're trying to mind read, or if you're feeling embarrassed or ashamed when another tool, you know, instead of that gut reaction of I'm sorry is thinking about reframing that automatic thought. And we've talked about CBT before and the cognitive triangle, how our thoughts impact how we feel and what we do. And that all goes, you know, backwards and forwards in this triangle. One thought that I think is particularly helpful is to think this might sound like a little bit like we're blaming the other person, but it's actually not. So it is other people's lack of knowledge or understanding about T1D that makes me apologize for beeping or fill in the blank. It is not my job to apologize for that. So again, it might feel like, oh, is that harsh? It's other people's lack of knowledge or understanding about T1D that makes me apologize for beeping, but it's not my job to apologize for that. But so kind of just you could fill in the blank, but have this thought kind of percolating in your mind of, wait, why? Why am I apologizing for that?

A (27:02)

Yeah.

B (27:02)

Oh, it's because they don't understand, but I don't need to apologize because they don't understand. Does that make sense?

A (27:07)

Yeah. You can almost take it one farther. They're not asking you to apologize. You right, you feel that way, but you feel that way because they don't understand. And listen, you apologize to me when you didn't need to, but I hope that the next time something like that happens, you'll think of me as a comrade. This you won't apologize to me, like, right. But for, I don't know, a stranger or somebody that's just in a situation with you. Once that sentence gets you to I don't need to apologize. If they understood, I wouldn't have to say anything. So you're not really blaming them. You're just telling yourself, if they were a different person, there'd be no reason. There's no reason to apologize here. I only feel like it because they don't understand what that beep was just now with a click.

B (27:49)

Yes.

A (27:50)

Okay. All right.

B (27:51)

And that takes. You know, that takes work and practice because we are. You know, we have these automatic thoughts that we are that impact how we feel and then what we do. So it does take time to reframe that. But I think having just that question of, like, why. Why did I apologize for that? Do I need to next time is a. Is a gracious way to. To come. To speak to yourself.

A (28:15)

How do you stop yourself from thinking about stuff like that? Because I'm going to give you an example outside of what we're talking about for a second, but I think it fits enough. You and I are looking at each other. You and I have been in each other's presence. We've sat across from each other, had private meals together. We know each other pretty well.

B (28:31)

Mm.

A (28:32)

I'm uncomfortable with how my shirt is sitting on me right now, but you're not noticing that at all, right? No.

B (28:38)

Well, now, I mean, I'm looking, but. No, not before.

A (28:40)

I know, but my shirt's grabbing me in, like, a strange place. Right. And I'm at a weird angle, and you and I are talking, and I have found myself three separate times in the last half an hour adjusting myself so that the fabric doesn't. And I'm like, what am I doing?

B (28:55)

And, like, so, like, when I. I didn't even notice.

A (28:57)

No, no. But so after I did it the first time, I thought, don't do that again. And then. And I'm looking at you, not at me. And like. And then once in a while, my eye goes over, and I'm like, oh. And then I'll, like, move my hand to kind of like. Like to put myself into a different position. And now I know I don't. I know I don't care. I know I don't look bad, but I still did it two more times. How do I stop myself from doing that? How does somebody hear the beep and not go right to oh, I'm so sorry, or even feel like they should be in that situation.

B (29:31)

It's. It's such a great example. Yes. And it's so even. Like, some people might not even hear the beep. Just, like. You know, I didn't notice. I didn't notice that the shirt adjustment. Right.

A (29:42)

Yeah. Oh, and I kept my hand across my. Like this. I crossed My arm across myself once, like, I was doing all kinds of stuff, and I. And by the way, this is. Nobody get a podcast. Can you end up saying stuff like this? And you just. I wish I didn't have to tell people this stuff, but I do think that telling people helps. Also. You can tell when people are thrown off by your devices, because the people who are genuinely scared by it usually go like, what the hell was that? Do you ever notice that? They're just. They're like. They're. The people who are starkly shocked by it have an honest response to being shocked by something. It's, you know, or you see people look around a little bit, like they wonder what's going on. And sometimes people try to say something funny, like, is the microwave done? Like, what's going on? Or, you know, But I mean, listen, I'm waiting for it, and sometimes when it's so loud, it scares the hell out of me, so I can't imagine what it does to somebody who wasn't expecting it, you know?

B (30:35)

Well, and even just thinking about, you know, for the students in the classroom, you know, when the beep goes off and the teacher's response is, no mobile devices, you know, no cellular bones in the classroom, and then everyone's looking at you because they heard the beep go off towards your. Near your area, and you're thinking, I.

A (30:56)

Didn'T choose this life. Yeah, yeah. Or more importantly for our conversation, I didn't tell my body to stop making insulin, you know, so. But it still feels like it's your. But is, you know, what it. It seems to tie closely to. I watched my wife go through this because there's autoimmune on my wife's side of the family. Like, she felt responsible for Ardent's diabetes. It's so interesting because, like, my wife has brown eyes. My kids have brown eyes. She doesn't feel responsible for them having brown eyes. But this thing she does. And by the way, she is the reason my kids have brown eyes, because my eyes are beautiful, and it would be lovely if they had my color, but they don't. They have her. They have her brown eyes. There's nothing wrong with them. Your mind doesn't think of it as a thing you did to them. But if my kids were, I don't know, if they had, like, a horn growing out of the right side of their head and so did everybody in her family, then she'd think, oh, that's my fault. But it's not your fault. It's. It's how genetics Work and you know what I mean? Like the fault pieces seem similar to me.

B (31:56)

Well, you're just moving us right along into the next stage, which is fault.

A (32:02)

But did I do it too soon?

B (32:04)

No. So I think before we move into that, that was a great segue because they do kind of connect that just a challenge and something for you to think about is where can you take up more space? Right. How do you interrupt that automatic kind of knee jerk response to apologize, whether it's at work or in school? I mean, obviously there are certain accommodations that you can get set. You know, with 504 plans in your work, you can have certain accommodations created, but also just for yourself, where can you take up more space in your life? And maybe it's even just a challenge of I'm going to try changing my device in the family room when we have friends or family over and see and see what happens within you. If that's something that you don't typically do, you don't have to, you don't have to do that. But just to notice. Are you isolating yourself for diabetes related purposes because you're wanting to ignore any of the pain or prevent pain, perceived pain, and maybe just intentionally creating some exercises around that?

A (33:12)

So you said something earlier that I agree with, but I do think there's more to it than what you said. You said that no matter how comfortable or not comfortable you are with being public, for example, with testing your blood sugar, giving yourself insulin, there's no right answer. You're on a journey. I agree with you. I would also, and I tell people that all the time, your level of comfort is what's most important. But I do think that the end goal, if you can get to it, which is that I like just, I don't care who sees this, I'm not hiding in the bathroom. I have found that to be a more, I don't know, healthy place to be in your mind. You know what I mean? Like if you can get to it, I do think you'd find it to be a place of glory and you would look back on that other time when you weren't willing to do that as transition out of a tough time and getting past it. I hope that makes sense. Like, I'm not telling you if you're not comfortable with it, you're doing something wrong. I am telling you that that is a fight worth having with yourself to get to that spot.

B (34:17)

I would say that the, the benefit to that is the decreased sense of isolation. So when I hid, I'll just say Personally, when I was, I hated having type 1. I still do sometimes, but in that like preteen teen years, I didn't want to talk about it. I didn't want anyone to know about it. That's why it was hiding and doing everything behind closed doors. I also didn't get to receive the community and comfort and emotional support that is so needed to continue. And so I think sometimes the hiding, the diabetes can be connected to even feeling more alone. So the benefit to, once you're open to talking about it or being more open with your devices, and the benefit is that decreased sense of isolation usually. But also I know plenty of people who, it's not, it's a part of them, it's a part of their identity. They manage. They don't talk about it all the time, they don't wear pumps and nobody really knows and they're a healthy, contributing member of society. So I hear you. But there are circumstances where it's maybe not has to be that way, but there are benefits.

A (35:35)

Yeah, no, I, yeah, I want to say that like, I'm not just saying like if you don't, if you can't do it, you're wrong. I understand that there could be a real struggle there that you can't get through or past or maybe there's a good reason for it, a million other things. All I'm saying is that the people I've seen get to that spot seem lighter once they get there. And if so I'm saying I hope you can get to it. I think it's worth trying to get to if you can. Anyway, you can figure it out. I saw one of those arguments online the other day where somebody said they were talking about curing diabetes. And this is not surprising to me. I've seen this said over and over again over the years. A very few people will say that they are so connected to who they are because of diabetes that they're comfortable telling you they don't want it cured because they don't know who they'd be without it. Which I think is such an interesting look into people's minds because that seems like a no brainer. If I could snap my fingers and make it go away, do you want that? And everybody's like, yeah, but there's always a couple of people who go, I don't know, like I, I'm so connected to. This is who I am. Like, what if. I don't know if I can take you just changing all that at once. Anyway, it's my point is, is that you know, we're complicated. And yes, one person's glory might not be another person's.

B (36:55)

So anyway, no, I think that's a great conversation and place to just to explore, as there's so many different ways to see it.

A (37:06)

It's not a common feeling. It is more common than you would think it would be. And for the people who don't understand it, it's shocking to them to hear it. Like, really? Because I watch the. The argument starts right away, like, you know, like, well, I don't know. I don't. I don't think I'd want it to go away. What's wrong with you? Blah, blah, like. And I'm like, oh, all right. Just be. Just let everybody have their feelings anyway.

B (37:27)

Yes, that's right, Erica.

A (37:29)

We're going to keep going with. With fall. I appreciate the first half of this conversation. I hope everybody does, too. I like keeping this. Maybe in one episode.

B (37:39)

Yeah.

A (37:39)

But when we get done, we'll make the final decision. People will know when they're listening what we decided to do. I apparently brought up fault by mistake a moment ago. I want everybody. I've said this a million times, and I'm going to reiterate it here. You do such a good job of laying out our conversation in your mind ahead of time, where we're going to go. And then you do such a good job of walking me through it that when I end up having a question at the end of one part, I often ask the question that leads into the other part, and you say, what a great segue. And I think you're giving me credit for making a great segue. But what you don't realize is I have not read ahead. I don't actually know where we're going.

B (38:17)

So sometimes I do. I think, what, did he read the next section?

A (38:22)

No, I am woefully unprepared. You were doing a great job of leading the conversation. I wonder if people realize that or not. So when I asked about fault, it was not because I looked forward and thought, oh, well, let me get her to fault. Now let's move the conversation forward. It just seemed like the next obvious question. So anyway, please continue.

B (38:42)

Yes, which is why it's kind of the next again, as stages, we often talk about them in a linear fashion. They aren't always that way, but it does often go that way, as it did today in our discussion. So fault sounds like the why me? Question, which we so naturally ask ourselves upon diagnosis. Why me? Why did this happen? And as caregivers, you Know, experiencing that, you know, did I do something? Could I have prevented this issue? And it comes most often again at diagnosis. But it's also really normal and really natural to experience this fault, this. Why me? Why do I have to deal with this disease? Year 5, year 10, year 35, it, it can pop up at any various points in your journey. So just wanted to normalize that experience. It's not like you go through it and then it's. You kind of move on.

A (39:45)

I find it to be one of the more interesting parts of the conversations I have with people in the other episodes when people are so focused on, like, how did this happen? Right? Like, did I get a virus, then this happened? Or like, and they, they really, they dig hard to find out. And I always ask the same question. I go, why does it matter? And I don't mean, like, I don't mean that in a scolding way. Why does it matter? I mean, why, like, why do. Why are you driven? I keep waiting for somebody to tell me and nobody ever can. And that's why I know. That's why I know it's a good question. And it's funny. I was listening to an interviewer the other day on another topic and he asked a question of the person he was interviewing and the guy goes, oh, that's a really good question. I don't know the answer. And I heard the guy say, that's why I keep asking it. I keep waiting for somebody to explain it to me. And I feel that way a lot around this. Why do we need to know who or what is at fault so badly? Not just diagnosis, but a lot of things.

B (40:43)

So anyway, hopefully we will get to some, maybe some understanding around that. And I think the author, Jane, does a really great job in this, in clarifying, at least for me. So she talks about, we ask this question, why me? Because we believe if we can find the problem, if we can find who's to blame, the. Then that pain that we're experiencing as a result, you know, the loss and mourning of the change, that if we can find out, like, who can I place this blame on, then that will get rid of that pain, the anger, the sadness, the physical pain, whatever that is that we're experiencing as body grief. It stems right from this real valid fear of being sick of experiencing pain. We talked a lot about in the beginning, in the intro episode about, you know, in our society we believe that we're kind of entitled to this pain free life. And that's what we're, you know, we receive A lot of marketing around that of like, you know, take this and everything's okay. And we believe we kind of are entitled to a pain free, illness free life. And so when this interrupts that mindset, the automatic response and thought is, well, why? Why did this happen to me? And it's not necessarily, why didn't it happen to my neighbor? We're not like, it's not about like, well, why didn't it happen to this guy?

A (42:15)

Right.

B (42:16)

But we experience it as this, you know, it's unfair. Why did this happen? And that leads to a lot of the feelings of blame and shame that we've been talking about. I want to read this quote from the book because I think it's, it's explains it really clearly. And she says when we are in apology, what we just talked that like, I'm sorry stage, we take on the responsibility for holding and managing that pain, discomfort and inconvenience of whatever is driving our body grief. But when we move into fault, that's when we begin to ask, why have we been saddled with this burden?

A (42:56)

Okay, well maybe if people grew up in the 70s, it does make sense. If people grew up in the 70s like I did with their parents listening to bad country music, don't you think this would have been answered for them? When Lynn Anderson said, I beg your pardon, I never promised you a rose garden. Is that where I learned it from an eight track tape in my dad's car? Anyway, the rest of that opening lyric is along with the sunshine, there's gotta be a little rain sometimes. It really is interesting, isn't it? That expectation? This should be perfect. And if it's not, somebody did this to me. Something did this to me. I need to, I guess it's, I need to place that fault to alleviate the shame or the guilt that I feel for not being perfect. Is that about it?

B (43:45)

Yes. And I think there's this split second feeling. It can temporarily make us feel better because we're not feeling, we're not feeling the sadness, the anger, the rage, the disappointment. We're gonna think I'm in control, I'm going to find who's to blame and that's going to make me feel safer. You know, we know this occurs at diagnosis, but also maybe when you're looking at Your results, your A1C results, or your time and range, or whatever kind of feedback you're looking at, we can quickly go into this, why me? Okay, who can I blame? And I'm going to try and make myself feel better and safe because I don't want to feel the feelings I'm having right now as a result of this.

A (44:28)

You would know obviously much better than I, because you have diabetes. But is there a situation then where you just say to yourself, this is what it is, it's not going to get any better than this. Because what do you have to do? You have to get to some sort of acceptance, right? But that acceptance could be dangerous if you accept it before you've got all the. What do I mean by this? You could spend your whole life trying to fine tune your health in a way that you never will actually get to and make yourself miserable the entire time saying, good's not good enough. I gotta keep trying, gotta keep trying. Or you can get to a place where you're healthy and you're gonna be okay. It's not as good as it would have been if this didn't happen to you. But you know, I'm not in a bad spot. And then just accept like, this is who I am, this is my situation. I think I get worried as a parent that they'll get to that point before they've exhausted all the things that would actually help them day to day. Like, do you know what I mean? Like, what if you got to the. Because I see it happen to people, they're like, I have an 11A 1C, it's the best I can do. And then they're on their way and I'm like, that's not the best you can do. Like, we could figure out a way to do better for you than that. What if they absorb the acceptance too early in the journey? That is what I mean. Now you tell me what you think about those words.

B (45:42)

Okay, so can you absorb the acceptance too early in the journey and cheat.

A (45:48)

Yourself out of health?

B (45:51)

I would maybe suggest that perhaps you're not necessarily at acceptance, but it might be kind of avoidance, kind of dismissal.

A (46:03)

Like, feels like you're giving.

B (46:04)

I can't do it anymore. Yeah, I can't quite feel all the things that I need to feel right now. So I'm going to just stay right where I am. But that might look like acceptance, but underneath I would maybe argue or suggest that there's some other feelings of anger, of avoidance because of their journey of grief. That is where they are right now, right?

A (46:29)

Is that burnout?

B (46:31)

Yeah, I was just gonna say that could be a burnout phase of this is the best I can do. But also because we are going on the other kind of side of the pendulum of like a hyper fixated. I'M going to overwork over produce. Trying like nothing is good enough.

A (46:52)

Yeah.

B (46:52)

And that also leads to burnout, too. But I think that it's an interesting question of can you get to acceptance too early before feeling all the feelings and moving through all the stages that might not be true? Acceptance, I guess, is like the. The simplest.

A (47:09)

It's still a pause in your. In the. Trying to. Because I think there's a spectrum there. I've definitely seen people online who are like, I have a, you know, I have a 5.5, a 1C, but I know it could be better. And I'm like, I mean, why? You know, like, you're doing really well. Like, I mean, awesome. If you want to drill down to get a 5:2 or something like that, like, right on. But I don't think, I mean, I might be wrong. I certainly don't have a crystal ball, but I don't know that a 5, 5 or a 52 are going to drastically change your, you know, your outcomes. But they. They'll spend their whole life, like, drilling down on that maybe. And maybe that's part of how they stay connected to it or. I don't know. There's so much to this. You can't really say anything in this space and not be oversimplifying something.

B (47:54)

Right. Right.

A (47:55)

I don't know if this is obvious or not. I'm just having a conversation, hoping that the people listening will hear something in that of themselves and work on themselves deeper on their own, you know, and try to drill down.

B (48:06)

Yes. I think what can happen is when you're in this why me? State again, totally normal and natural and healthy to ask that, most often we land at this, well, my body betrayed me. Right. Like, even if you're trying to say, well, was it me? Should I have not taken my kids out and they got sick? And then that triggered the autoimmune response. Like, is it family genetics? Is it God, who can I blame? Is it the universe? You know, a lot of, if only I had done this, then this might not have happened. That is again, you trying to find that control, trying to find. To alleviate the pain they're experiencing. And you most often end up, it's like, well, I guess my body just, you know, my body failed. And you go back to that perceived body betrayal experience that we talked about again more thoroughly in the first episode.

A (49:01)

Are we the only living things on the planet that do this? Belabor unchangeable realities about ourselves? Like, other mammals don't do that. Right. How would we know?

B (49:12)

I Mean, I have not studied all animals, but I mean it probably is.

A (49:16)

Because what a terrible conundrum to be in. Like you're put into a situation, it's livable and you busy. You spend your whole life bemoaning it instead of just living in it. Like it's. And it's not a thing you're consciously doing to yourself either. And it happens to some people and doesn't happen to other people. It almost feels unfair in the way that anxiety feels unfair to me. When I meet somebody who has anxiety and then I meet somebody who doesn't, I'm like, God, what a burden you didn't ask for. We should be able to wipe ourselves clean and move forward every once in a while. I think that would be nice. Whoever made this, they weren't thinking. You should have been able to do a clean install once in a while. You know what I mean? Just throw away the stuff you were worried about before and move. You know, I think it's funny, you're. I think of a friend of mine whose mom has been gone for so long now, but when she comes up, it still feels like she died yesterday. And I always feel terrible for her, that that's how it makes her feel. And anyway, I'm sorry, I'm going down the wrong rabbit hole.

B (50:13)

No, no, I. Yes. And there, that is hard to see because I wonder too, like she's reliving the pain and the grief as if it just happened. And so she might be stuck in a loop, she might just be quick to tears, which I can be.

A (50:32)

Also all these conversations just remind me that like this is where like some hard headed person who just yelled like, just accept it and move on. This is where they were. But they were talking to somebody and they were like, I don't know how to help you. We gotta keep going. You know, if you think of humanity walking through time, it's different, right? Like you say, like some of us are built out of harder stuff. We kept going when it was tough, like blah, blah, blah, we're still here because people live through an ice age, whatever, however, want to think of it big picture, that all sounds well and good, but when it's micro and you're talking about, you know, Kathy, Kathy's not an expendable thing that falls into the chasm because she was too cold to walk further. And oh well, it's so much different when you talk about it like this. And yet I talk to people every day, interview people all the time who are. I'm sure you do too are stuck at somewhere along their path where it just feels like it would be not just fair but lovely if someone could come up behind him and just shove him forward a little bit and be like, keep going. Like, we can't get stuck here. We're going to die here. Keep moving. I don't know why I'm saying that. It's not valuable at all. Just how I feel when we talk about stuff like this.

B (51:43)

Yes, well. And hopefully as we talk about this false stage of what it looks like, noticing, are you in this stage? And it is so easy to get stuck in this stage, any point in your journey. You know, it's. It's. As we were talking about acceptance earlier. It's. It's hard to get to a state of acceptance, of thinking, okay, there's no one to blame. There's no one thing to blame. This is how it is. This is how things are in a deeply genuine way. Not in a, like, oh, you know. Yeah, this is just how it is. And it's hard. It's hard to stay in there. So noticing, like, if you are. This happens a lot again after diagnosis, you know, getting stuck in the search, in the Google searches, trying to find why, how could I have prevented this, looking for cures. You might be feeling like something or the world or God or the universe is out to get you. You might experience feeling like a failure. Right. If you then can't pinpoint the answer, you can't find who is to blame, which again, you know, leads to that shame and my body failed me. You might be seeking comfort in food or drugs or alcohol to override that discomfort, that uncomfortable feeling that your body failed you or the world is out to get you. If you're noticing that you're in this kind of stuck in this cycle, you're trying to find a reason why your body is defective or not normal. Sometimes it's helpful to remember that there really is no such thing as normal because we compare normal pancreases to failed pancreases. But sometimes we forget that the person with the normal pancreas might have a lot of other issues.

A (53:24)

Yes.

B (53:24)

Going on too.

A (53:26)

It really goes back to the beginning. It's expectation of perfection and that you feel like you were promised a nice clean pathway to walk on and everything was going to be all right. Maybe the saddest human part of all this is that as long as you wake up every day, if you're caught in that struggle, the struggle continues. But when you watch people have end of life that come slowly and you see them accept death. And this is probably not where you thought we were going with this, but when you see people accept death, it is such a peaceful thing. Right? Like, and I realize while we're talking, it's not that they realize they're going to die and that they've had some big epiphany about life because they're going to be gone in a second. It's all going to just going to be over. Like, the beautiful part is the acceptance. Right. This whole thing, right. That's your whole job, isn't it? Right. Just to get people to accept their situation. And am I not. Am I right about that circle?

B (54:21)

Yeah, that's the goal that we're working on.

A (54:23)

Yeah, you're working. And so.

B (54:25)

And like integration.

A (54:27)

If you could just get a little piece of that perspective. Right. You shouldn't have to live to the verge of death to have that perspective. It sucks. Like, I think of the last week or so of my mom's life, and she was just so Zen like, you know what I mean? Like, she's like, I'm sick and this is probably it. Like, okay, and everybody's here and that's good. And that was just sort of like it, you know? And I even look at her, at all the things she struggled with throughout her life. She could have used a teaspoon of that along the way once in a while. Right, right. Like the guilt, the shame, the lost expectations, the feeling that you got cheated somehow. Yeah, but that's where all these T shirt slogans come from. Right? Life's life's a gift. Treat every day like it's your last. Blah, blah, blah, blah. We don't even need psychology. Just use your T shirt.

B (55:08)

Buy a T shirt?

A (55:09)

Yeah, just buy a T shirt. Tells you what to do and then just do it. I don't know what to tell you. It's all sucks.

B (55:18)

Okay, so let's get to all.

A (55:20)

It all sucks. I'm sorry. Okay, so make it not suck. Go ahead, Erica.

B (55:24)

Okay, so instead, you know, again, this is kind of like the tool right at the end, instead of asking, why me? She offers, you know, ask what now? And again, it's important. We're not saying it's. It's wrong to ask why me? It's definitely important to feel all the emotions, to feel the anger, but it also, you know, the anger and the why me? Can lead to that feeling of self pity and stuckness. So we want to feel the anger, but use it in a healthy way. Jane, the author talks, says that healthy Rage can flip us out of dismissal or apology and help us take up space by advocating for our needs. So that kind of connects to the apology, right? So if you're feeling like, why me? I'm feeling, this is not fair. Using that anger and healthy rage to then advocate, take up space, get, you know, ask for what you need. But anger, anger is an important emotion because shows us where we need to act, right? Even if, if we're feeling the why me? Feeling the unfairness, then we're going to move. We're going to feel that and acknowledge that and then move on to what can I do now? We're going to get to some practical tools in a minute, but we don't want to ignore it. Like, angers can be scary, right? We don't want to ignore it, we don't want to repress it because it'll, it'll show up in your relationships and your work, how you treat yourself. You might be, you know, you numb or yell or even, you know, self harm. So when we get stuck in this blame and fault cycle, we then continue to stay angry and resentful. We always land as my body failed me, right? So we want to move through it. So what can we do? So these are like tools that we, we've talked about, you've heard, but it's noticing when you're feeling that, the distress, the rage, shame, maybe even feeling hopeless. Okay, what can I do right now? It's as simple as, okay, I can take a deep breath right now. I can raise my hands up in the air and take a deep, A big stretch. I can reach out to somebody I know and say, hey, I'm. I'm so angry right now. You can look at your blood sugar right now or your child's blood sugar and treat it without judgment, like, oh, this is my number and I'm going to correct or treat if needed. One quick story. Should I. Did you want to.

A (57:52)

Oh, I'm listening.

B (57:53)

Say something. Okay, so just to kind of normalize, you know, this, the why me? Experience, I think I've shared on here that I had some. I was diagnosed with some retinopathy like 15 years ago. 15 to 20. No, 15. 15 years ago.

A (58:12)

Okay.

B (58:12)

And treated it with some laser, was stable for a while, had a little pop up, come out, come up. And that's not the right tech term, but you get it. I had some retinopathy show up again about a year ago. And I was so sad and went through this. Why me? Why I've been working so hard, you know, the retinopathy about 15 years was. Felt like that was, you know, from my early years of management. And I felt burnout. I felt stuck, all of these things. And I reached out to a colleague and a friend who has been living with type 1 for a similar amount of time and just said, hey, I'm.

A (58:55)

I'm.

B (58:56)

You know, I'm feeling burnout. Can we talk now? The irony is that we actually never were able to schedule based on time zones and work and life. We never could get the call. But I experienced such relief in reaching out and letting her know where I was. So it there it wasn't. It was just that small little thing. And it feels so power. It feels so. Maybe hard in the moment, but I think that when you're feeling overwhelmed in the. Why me? What now? To reach out to someone and just say, hey, can we talk? And even if you never talk, I guarantee that like that reach out will help.

A (59:31)

Yeah. Just makes it all feel a little doable, right?

B (59:34)

Yes.

A (59:34)

Yeah. Like there's somebody there and a little bit of support for you.

B (59:38)

Yes. And interrupts that loop. That's what we're. That's what all of these tools do.

A (59:42)

Okay. The self reflection versus See. Isn't it funny you're talking about this. I've been on the side. Sorry. While you're talking, I'm listening to you. I promise. I've looked up. Is there science about people's desire to be too self reflective in a modern age? Did this exist say 200 years ago? And it's talking about that self reflection is healthy, but rumination is unhealthy. So when. When you get caught ruminating, you got to break that cycle. That's what you're talking about. See that I'm paying attention.

B (60:11)

Yes, yes, yes. Reflection brings awareness, but then we don't want to. Yeah, kind of the rumination, the hyper fixation can keep you stuck and trapped again. Feeling the feelings is healthy and. And then noticing that you're feeling those feelings and then doing something to help you move through them.

A (60:32)

Yeah. It's the difference between yelling, this sucks. And then keeping going and yelling, this sucks. And sitting down and not moving again and just yelling this sucks. Over and over and over. It gives so many interesting examples that I'm not going to bore people with right now. But it goes back through different. It says, In 1774, the viral sadness of the 18th century Goth published the Sorrows of Young Werther, a novel about a young man who thinks about his own feelings so intensely that it eventually kills himself the result is in triggering a massive cultural phenomenon across Europe. Young men started to dress like the main character. And wallowing in melancholy, it got so bad that copycat suicides occurred. And then it jumps ahead to 4th century when something happened again 19th century, where melancholy again became popular. It's interesting, it says in modern times that TikTok might be the example right now.

B (61:29)

Yes.

A (61:29)

Yeah. It's just interesting that it's such a human thing that it repeats over and over again through time. So it's our goal, the goal of therapy and being reflective in a thoughtful manner. It's your goal to break what appears to me to be pretty human feelings that for reasons that we don't completely understand or detrimental to you being happy and moving forward. So that's what you do the work for, to accept it and go on. That's it. Right. Is that what they call enlightenment in other parts of the world?

B (62:05)

Oh, yes, I would say, yeah. Enlightenment, understanding. So, yeah, there's the broly to. I mean, you gotta get to a.

A (62:16)

Place where it just rolls off your back. That's what we're saying, really? Right?

B (62:20)

Yes. I mean, it depends on. Yeah, your goal. Right. Like, if. If therapy, you're seeking that to understand your past and your patterns, that's kind of part one and then part two is. Okay, then. And then what now? What do I want to do with that information? And how do I want to move forward and make changes and live kind.

A (62:39)

Of an unburdened existence? Like it was the last five days of your life and you knew it and you were okay with it, but you get to do that for 30 years, not three days.

B (62:49)

Yes, that's my goal. That's hard. That's. That's complicated.

A (62:53)

I'm working towards it. I don't know how I'm doing. That's all. I mean, for a guy who said that his shirt was bunching up at the wrong place, I'm probably not killing it. And it occurred to me 10 minutes ago to ask you after the recording was over, like, do I look fat right now, or is that just in my head? Don't answer.

B (63:11)

Oh, my gosh.

A (63:12)

Don't answer. Are we done? Is there more? I'm sorry.

B (63:14)

No, we're done.

A (63:15)

Okay. I appreciate you doing this with me, as always.

B (63:18)

You're welcome. Thank you.

A (63:26)

Are you tired of getting a rash from your CGM adhesive? Give the Eversense 365 a try. Eversensecgm.com Juicebox beautiful silicone that they use. It changes every day, keeps it Fresh. Not only that, you only have to change the sensor once a year. So I mean, that's better. US Med sponsored this episode of the Juice Box podcast. Check them out@usmed.com juicebox or by calling 888-721-1514, get your free benefits check and get started today with us Med. Today's episode is also sponsored by the new Tandem Mobi system and control IQ technology. Learn more and get started today at tandomdiabetes.com Juicebox check it out. Okay, well, here we are at the end of the episode. You're still with me. Thank you. I really do appreciate that. What else could you do for me? Why don't you tell a friend about the show or leave a five star review? Maybe you could make sure you're following or subscribed in your podcast app. Go to YouTube and follow me. Or Instagram TikTok. Oh gosh, here's one. Make sure you're following the podcast in the private Facebook group as well as the public Facebook page. You don't want to miss, please. Do you not know about the private group? You have to join the private group. As of this recording, it has 74,000 members. There are are active, talking about diabetes, whatever you need to know. There's a conversation happening in there right now and I'm there all the time. Tag me. I'll say hi. Hey, I'm dropping in to tell you about a small change being made to the Juice Cruise 2026 schedule. This adjustment was made by Celebrity Cruise Lines, not by me. Anyway, we're still going out on the Celebrity beyond cruise ship, which is awesome. Check out the walkthrough video@juicebox podcast.com JuiceCruise the ship is awesome. Still a seven night cruise. It still leaves out of Miami on June 21st. Actually, most of this is the same. We leave Miami June 21, head to CocoCay in the Bahamas, but then we're going to San Juan, Puerto rico instead of St. Thomas after that bastard. I think I'm saying that wrong. St. Kitts and Nevis. This place is gorgeous. Google it. I mean, you're probably gonna have to go to my link to get the correct spelling because my pronunciation is so bad. But once you get the same kit and you Google it, you're gonna look and see a photo that says to you, oh, I wanna go there. Come meet other people living with type 1 diabetes. From caregivers to children to adults. Last year we had a hundred people on our cruise and it was fabulous. You can see pictures to get at my link juiceboxpodcast.com juicecruise. You can see those pictures from last year there. The link also gives you an opportunity to register for the cruise or to contact Suzanne from Cruise Planners. She takes care of all the logistics. I'm just excited that I might see you there. It's a beautiful event for families, for singles. A wonderful opportunity to meet people, swap stories, make friendships and learn. If you have a podcast and you need a fantastic editor, you want Rob from Wrong Way Recording. Listen, truth be told, I'm like 20% smarter. When Rob edits me, he takes out all the, like, gaps of time. And when I go and stuff like that. And it just, I don't know, man. Like, I listen back and I'm like, why do I sound smarter? And then I remember because I did one smart thing. I hired rob@worldwayrecording.com.