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- [00:00]
A
Hello friends, and welcome back to another episode of the Juice Box Podcast. Body grief is the sense of loss and mourning that comes with living in an ever changing body. And in this new series with myself and Erica Forsyth, we're going to talk all about it. If you're looking for community around type 1 diabetes, check out the Juice Box Podcast. Private Facebook group juice box podcast type 1 diabetes but everybody is welcome. Type 1, type 2 gestational loved ones. It doesn't matter to me. If you're impacted by diabetes and you're looking for support, comfort or community, check out Juice box podcast type 1 diabetes on Facebook. While you're listening, please remember that nothing you hear on the Juice Box Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise. Always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan or becoming bold with insulin. Today's podcast episode is sponsored by Medtronic Diabetes, who is making life with diabetes easier with the MiniMed 780G system and their new sensor options, which include the Instinct sensor made by Abbott. Would you like to unleash the full potential of the MiniMed 780G system? You can do that at my link medtronicdiabetes.com Juicebox Today's episode is also sponsored by the Contour Next Gen Blood Glucose meter. Learn more and get started today@contour next.com Juicebox jump right in. Erica, tell me what we're doing today.
- [01:46]
B
Hi. We are going to move on to stage five, which is fight in our Body Grief series. As we say every time, this is, they're not linear, even though we're discussing them in a numerical linear fashion and sourcing this information from Jane Mattingling's book. This is Body Grief.
- [02:09]
A
Okay, well, what does fight mean? I'm going to beat this thing.
- [02:13]
B
Yes.
- [02:13]
A
Tell me more.
- [02:14]
B
Okay, so fight is exactly what you said. We kind of get into this mindset that I'm going to beat this thing. We often hear we'll get into the, you know, I'm a T1D or diabetic warrior. We often are in this stage when we are, we're feeling powerless perhaps, and we are wanting to regain kind of take back some of that control that we feel like it's out of control. And again, this can happen most certainly after diagnosis. But at any point in our journey with diabetes, and often you, you might find yourself in the fight stage when you've kind of run out of all the other options, right? Like you've, you've been in dismissal or denial, you've been in shock, you've tried to maybe apologize your way out of this, of what you're feeling from the body, grief. And then you land in, okay, I, I'm going to beat this thing. And again, as we talk about it, you'll hear probably both of us go back and forth between, like, that's not necessarily a bad thing all the time to be in this. I can do it all. But what we're going to kind of maybe hopefully piece out is noticing when is it maybe problematic.
- [03:31]
A
Okay, when is it? I want to wait to hear, because I was going to say something, but I'd like to go a little farther first. All right, keep going, please.
- [03:39]
B
So what does it look like when you're in the fight stage, you are ignoring and overriding any cues that your body is giving you that you're in pain. And obviously, when I say pain, it could be physical pain, right? Because this could also, even though we're applying these stages through and looking at them through the lens of living with diabetes, but you could also think about it through any other issue, injury, surgery, anything that's going on in your body. So you might be having extreme emotional dysregulation. You're angry, you're sad, you're happy. You might have some physical cues that your body is giving you that you're in fight. Maybe you're having heart racing, your thought is racing. Maybe you're feeling anxious. You might have kind of those warm, like, hot flashes, but not necessarily just because you are in maybe that stage of life, your nervous system, you're just, you're irritable, you're just quick to easily angered, easily irritated. So you're having all those experiences physically and emotionally in your body, and yet you're trying to push through it and you're keeping it all together. Right? So you're still like, I'm feeling all these things, but I'm gonna ignore them and I can do this.
- [04:55]
A
Right?
- [04:56]
B
Okay. Again, there are times when that probably is helpful, but there are times when that's detrimental.
- [05:02]
A
Tell me how it is detrimental when it is.
- [05:04]
B
Okay, you are ignoring, right. That these, your body is giving you these cues and these signs that you're not okay. Sometimes when you're ignoring that repeatedly and trying to push it away and say, I'm fine. I'm going to keep it all together. I don't want to be perceived as weak. I don't want to be perceived that this diabetes thing has got me. I'm going to be stronger than that. It's those emotions and those feelings are going to Come out in other areas of your life.
- [05:36]
A
It's almost the equivalent of just kind of running on adrenaline until it's gone and then you realize your leg's broke and you fall over. That kind of an idea.
- [05:45]
B
Yes. Yes.
- [05:46]
A
Okay.
- [05:47]
B
Yes. So maybe at times you do need to be in the fight stage and like, okay, I gotta do this thing, I gotta work through this. But we're talking about like this is, you know, you're in repeatedly, consecutively in this fight stage and ignoring all these other signs that your body's giving you that you're in pain.
- [06:09]
A
And this can be physical, emotional, all kinds of different pain, right?
- [06:13]
B
Yes. So you, you also might notice if you're ignoring all these cues when somebody makes a comment or they're trying to maybe even be kind. And we've talked about this before, you know, where they might ask a question that they're trying to be kind and considerate, but it just lands as very ignorant. You don't have to be in fight stage to be triggered by that. But also if you are constantly and consistently noticing that you're just set off so easily by anything, whether you're reading it online or you're seeing a commercial or a personal comment from a friend and you just want to lash out, that could be a sign that you are in this fight stage.
- [07:00]
A
Okay. Yeah. I never understand this makes it clear for me when people get upset, like, like a late night host makes a joke or something and they're just upset for days afterwards. I was like, I mean, it's, you know, it may be ham fisted or even ill advised, but you're, you're really upset. You're not going to change, you know what I mean? Like, it's not a thing you can impact, really. So if you have all this pain and you're, what is it? You're stuffing it down, you're trying to ignore it because you feel like I can beat what's happening to me. Like the thing my body's trying to do to me is not as strong as my will to resist it. Is that the idea?
- [07:41]
B
Yes, that is certainly one of the ideas. So kind of we're looking at all the possibilities that's driving this behavior, whether you're conscious of it or not. Right. I think there's the, I'm going to beat this thing because I don't want it to beat me. There could be this kind of the public perception, you're concerned and not wanting to be perceived as weak and letting this bring you down. And we get affirmed by this all the time. Right. Like you're so strong. How do you manage, how do you do all these things while living with a chronic illness, while living with diabetes? And that's great, that feels good. But if you are ignoring all of these cues that your body is giving you emotionally, physically, that's just not sustainable. Right. If you're kind of living, if that's.
- [08:29]
A
Your goal and if it's not true, right. If it's just, it's just what you're presenting, then it's, I mean, it's really not sustainable at that point because you're just, that is the ill advised side of fake it till you make it. You can't.
- [08:42]
B
Yes, yeah.
- [08:43]
A
You can't fake some things. You can't just pretend don't exist. So when, when they do exist, I mean, I imagine we're getting to this. But like when they do exist, you, you have to stop, address them, get those things in order and then you won't even have the need to fight. You can put that fight into something more productive, I would imagine after that.
- [09:01]
B
Yes, yes. And we are going to get to that, get into that.
- [09:05]
A
All right, I'm sorry.
- [09:06]
B
So the. I met also another kind of tangible example, like what this might look like is pushing through the lows or ignoring your alerts. Right. Because there might, again, there might be times where you feel like you need to or have to, but we're talking about kind of this consistent like, I'm just, I'm going to fight through this. I'm going to push through. I don't need to address this.
- [09:33]
A
Saying you're going to fight through a low. Falling blood sugar is like getting shot and going, I'm not going to die, you are. Yeah, yeah. Like something, something more powerful than your will is at play at that point. Point.
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B
That's right.
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A
Yeah.
- [09:50]
B
But there are times where perhaps you feel like, okay, I, I can't stop. It feels like you can't stop because you're going to either interrupt the thing that's happening that you're like, whether you're in a meeting or a work environment or a classroom, or you feel like there might be other reasons why you feel like, okay, I can't eat right now, I can't treat it, or I don't want to inject. I don't want to know that. That might not be because you're in fight. There might be other reasons going on such as apology. Right. Like you might be embarrassed and not want to interfere, interrupt with the flow around you.
- [10:26]
A
Yeah.
- [10:28]
B
But there are and I don't mean, like, pushing through a low, like, not taking your. Your treat, but, like, maybe you don't want to ask to stop the just conversation happening.
- [10:40]
A
Right, Right.
- [10:41]
B
And you're just.
- [10:42]
A
Yeah, you're being kind by, like, couching in that direction. But I've talked to a lot of people who really. They can't articulate why. They're just like, I. I just felt like I didn't want to do it, so I didn't. And I'll say, but, you know, your blood sugar was 55, and it was still dropping. Like, you know what happens after that, right? Like, why wouldn't you stop? And they don't really know it is. It's defiance. I don't know when your conscious decision starts and when your, you know, being incapable of thinking begins, as your blood sugar gets lower and lower, too. But it does seem to go in that direction. Do you know what I mean? Like, it starts with, like, a conscious. Like, I don't want to do this, and I'm not going to. And then at some point, your blood sugar gets so low and what I've witnessed on other people, that all of a sudden, you can't make a good decision anymore, but you're already kind of locked into, like, woo, I'm going to fight. I know. For Arden. Arden gets into that weird. Ignores a low and says, I got it. I'll get it in a second. I'm too busy. I'm doing my homework. I'm doing this. Right? And then she gets so low that it hits her thought process. The next thing that happens to her is this incredible apathy. Yo, man, if it kills me, whatever. It's almost like talking to a hippie.
- [11:51]
B
And that's the cognitive impairment.
- [11:53]
A
That's the cognitive impairment. Because that happened. Does that happen to you?
- [11:56]
B
Oh, of course.
- [11:57]
A
You're like, it's gonna be all right, baby.
- [12:00]
B
I try not to let it get to that point, but when it gets to that point, it's hard. And that's when someone's like, here, you need to eat this thing right now.
- [12:07]
A
Yeah. Because then you're impaired, like, at that point. Right? And then. And then under that impairment exists your inability to help yourself one way or the other. And then you know the rest. So I'm sorry, but it just feels, like, important to talk about like that.
- [12:21]
B
And there's. There's so many reasons, like, the. When you feel low or you see you're low. I mean, there's so many reasons why you might not automatically treat. Right. Whether you. You Just brushed your teeth, you don't feel like it, you're tired, you're not hung. You're so over it.
- [12:39]
A
You're like, too many gummy bears.
- [12:40]
B
I'm hope my. What's that?
- [12:42]
A
I've had one too many gummy bears in my life.
- [12:43]
B
Yeah. Yeah. Or like, maybe my pump, if you're on an aid, you know, maybe. Maybe my pump will catch it.
- [12:49]
A
It's going to catch. It's going to catch.
- [12:51]
B
It's going to catch. Yeah. And you're kind of like, I'm comfortable in this chair. I don't want to have to get up.
- [12:56]
A
So if I send Arden a text that says, hey, I see a low coming, it's going to happen. Like, if you do something right now, it'll never come to terms. We're almost pre bolusing those pushbacks from her, and me telling her it's coming disallows her the autonomy to go through that process you just described. It occurs to me that there are not a lot of things in life that if you ignore them, they, in minutes can turn into such a dire situation that almost feels unfair. Like, unfair. I think. I don't like to say things are unfair all the time, but, like, that really is unfair. Like, you don't even have time to have your feelings about something before the unseen force takes over. And, And. And now it's. It's beyond your control at that point. Does that. Am I making sense about that? Like, one minute you're like a thinking, feeling person trying to be like, damn it, I want to fight this. And then five minutes goes by. You know, you're basically drunk at that point. You know what I mean? Sucks.
- [14:04]
B
Yes.
- [14:04]
A
That's all.
- [14:06]
B
The time. The timing is so sick. Is. It's important.
- [14:12]
A
Yeah. Yeah. Like, you're you and then you're not.
- [14:14]
B
Yes.
- [14:15]
A
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- [16:48]
B
It becomes even more complex, right? And complicated. And I wouldn't even call it, you know, she can. Jane, the author sometimes says that fight leans heavily on dismissal or denial, right? Like, ah, I just, I don't want to follow this treatment plan. But I wouldn't even. It's not necessarily even denial when you're like, okay, I see my arrow going down. It could be for a moment or in a particular situation, it was like, I just don't want to deal with this again. It could be, you know, just exhaustion and you're so over it, you don't have to treat it again.
- [17:28]
A
I'm going to tell you that I've been having thoughts lately around the process that people go through when they're diagnosed, whether it's them or it's their It's a child, right? Or somebody they care about in the beginning. You are really struck with this idea of, like, all the bad things that may happen over the decades that are coming, I'm going to do something to stop them from happening, or I'm going to minimize them, or we'll avoid them somehow. And I have to tell you, the longer that I live in this ecosystem with people who have type 1 diabetes, the more I think all of this is going to happen. It's really not about trying to stop it from happening. It's about navigating it and experiencing it and getting past it and moving on again. It's unfair, right? You're going to deal with a lot of things as a Type one you already have that a lot of people aren't going to be asked to deal with. But I don't think there's avoiding it. I mean, you can avoid it by avoiding taking care of yourself and having such poor health that none of it matters. But I just don't think you're getting around this. I think this thing we're talking about right now. I would imagine that on some level, at some point, everyone is going to feel this way, you know what I mean? Around diabetes.
- [18:44]
B
Yes. Or anyone with or without diabetes. Because you have a body that's like the whole theme, right, Thesis?
- [18:51]
A
My knee hurt really badly a couple years ago. I went to the guy and he's like, oh, you know, you got some arthritis on the inside here. We'll clean it out. It cleans it all out. He says to me, like, you're going to need a knee replacement one day. I was like, awesome. And then he goes, or not, I don't know. And I'm like, awesome. But it's starting to get sore again in the same way it did before they cleaned it out. It's not life or death. My blood sugar's getting really low. I have to make a great decision right now or something bad's gonna happen. But I think I'm going through the same process, just much more slowly. So anytime your body fails you, not that this isn't what we've been saying the whole time, but anytime your body fails you, you're going through this process whether you're realize it or not.
- [19:33]
B
100%.
- [19:34]
A
Yeah.
- [19:34]
B
Yes, yes. And it's about not trying to avoid it, but as you were saying, you know, feeling your way through it, you can't. You can't get, like, onto the other side without processing and being, you know, feeling these feelings and honoring them.
- [19:50]
A
This is the ride. Yes. Yeah, this is the ride. Like, you Don't. There's not a different ride out there that you're not involved in or that you're trying to get to. Like, this is it. You're born, your cells multiply, you get bigger, they start to go the other way. This is, this is just it. You're just watching it happen more quickly. When you have type one.
- [20:12]
B
Yes. Or, or perhaps another.
- [20:15]
A
Or other issues.
- [20:15]
B
Chronic illness. Yeah. But also when you get a cold or when you have to face a surgery.
- [20:21]
A
Yeah, yeah. Super, super simple way to think about it. But, like, you're. You're okay, and then suddenly you are not. And you don't get to pretend you're not. That's not how it works. But we do it because. Oh, what we talked about last time. Right. Like, you know, people are trying to move through the world. The ones that sit down and give up die. So you got to keep going. But we're not really in that. It's not the world we live in anymore, too. You know what I mean? It's not like if you can't get up, the wagon train is going to leave you behind and a coyote is going to eat your face. Like, that's. I mean, that is what would happen. By the way, imagine your last moments. Are you with a six shooter in a field thinking like, well, I can get five of these things and I'll save the six. One for me. Like, I mean, no kidding, right? Just trying to get to Arkansas. It's not. Oh, my gosh. It's not fair, Erica. Now you get an argue in your car, you tell it where to go, it drives you there. But. But I'm joking, but I'm not. This is really. It's been really super interesting. I know we're not done the conversation yet, but I've been really happy that we're talking about all this. But I've stopped you go ahead and move.
- [21:24]
B
No, it's good.
- [21:25]
A
Thank you.
- [21:26]
B
Good pause. So when we're in. In fight, I think it might be. It might look and feel differently when someone asks you the question, how are you doing? We might avoid answering that question because, a, you might want to say, I'm doing great because you're, you know, you're overworking, you're over scheduling. You're trying to prove that this diabetes isn't going to bring you down and it truly might not. Right. Like, again, that's okay. In a healthy place to be in. But also noticing if you're like, oh, I'm fine. I'm going to beat this thing. It's not going to bring me down. But underneath, your heart is racing, you're feeling awful, you're irritable, you're sad, all the time noticing. Okay, maybe, am I, am I using this fight messaging to try and prove that I'm okay, but really I'm not inside. Also, you might avoid or dodge the question, how are you doing? Because of all of the things we've talked about in the prior stages of. We just don't want to go down that road of trying to explain what it is we've dealt with the misconceptions and the stigma and so fight might be okay. You know, I've got this thing, I'm doing great. But really work like that. That was an ignorant question. I don't want to have to try and explain it. I'm exhausted and whatever I say to you, you aren't maybe going to fully understand it anyway. So I'm going to stay and I'm fine. This is great. You know, I got it.
- [23:00]
A
Yeah.
- [23:01]
B
This, you know, I'm, it's not going to beat me down.
- [23:03]
A
It's like wanting to explain your political position online. Yeah, right. Like, you're, like, it doesn't matter how long we sit here and talk, I'm not going to get how I feel across you. You're never going to understand the way I feel. And we're all just going to leave.
- [23:16]
B
Irritated, which is why, speaking from one type, one to another, there's so much value in that because you don't have to explain and you can be vulnerable without having to justify or you don't have to present as I've got it all together.
- [23:36]
A
I've seen it. Like, I, you know, I've said, we did it on the cruise ship. We did it. I, you know, I said, friends for life. Like, just everybody comes in a room and whatever that vibrating is behind everybody's eyes just feels like it goes away. It's really, really wonderful.
- [23:50]
B
Yes. Yes. I think there also might be. Again, we're just wanting to encourage noticing the why. Like, why are you in this? Why are you either answering it this way? The question, how are you doing? Why are you feeling this way? And none of being in fight necessarily isn't wrong. Right. I really want to be clear with that. Like, because we have to be warriors to keep going and it's a bigger picture.
- [24:19]
A
Like, I keep hearing you. I know you don't want people to feel like you're saying, like, hey, you know, there's nothing wrong with fighting back. But, like, I think they're two different understandings of the same concept, like, there's nothing wrong. Fighting back a little bit, not giving up and everything, that's one thing. But when you need to ask for help because you are five seconds away from running out of adrenaline and falling over, that's not the time to be fighting anymore. Now you got to look at yourself and say, why have I continued to fight beyond my ability to overcome this situation to my own detriment? This is going to end with me slumped over here. Like, why am I not stopping? That's what you want to say, right?
- [24:56]
B
Yes. Yes. That was an excellent. Yes. Reflection and summary. What, like, what is driving that behavior?
- [25:04]
A
Yeah.
- [25:05]
B
Is an element of it also fear? Right. Are you fearful that your body won't be able to perform or act or in your workplace, in your relationships, the way you want it to be? And sometimes that fear can also lead to this need for perfection. And with diabetes, whether it looks like I need to have straight lines because then that makes me feel like I'm in control, do I need to have 99% time and tight range? Again, those things, I'm not saying those things are wrong, but noticing what is driving that, that need for either perfection or performance, is it making you feel like you're in control? And to a degree it might be.
- [25:53]
A
Yeah. And maybe there's times when that's important too.
- [25:56]
B
That's right.
- [25:57]
A
Maybe there are times when you, you are going to fake it a little bit and, you know, lean on. Look, I kept my graph perfectly. I'm doing well. Gives you some, you know, gives you a little self confidence, maybe a little energy to move forward a little bit and. But there's just nothing wrong with saying, I need help or this isn't going well and that's okay. Or anything in that space, too.
- [26:17]
B
Yes. And also, like we've talked about before, when the messaging, which also I had as a child for my parents, of like, you know, you are a warrior. You've got this. Don't let this get in the way of your goals. That is 100% a beautiful message. And you also get to have space to say, this sucks, I hate diabetes, I don't want this. But I know I still can, like, work towards my goals, but I also kind of hate it sometimes. I've always said that was a really oversimplification.
- [26:45]
A
No, no. But I've always said to people like, you know, I get why you say that to your kids, but at the same time, like, you're so brave. You're so brave. My kids are so brave. And that's not. Not true. Of course it's true. But also, people don't want to be brave. It's not. They don't wake up in the morning and go, oh, I hope I am faced with so much turmoil that my only choice is to be brave today. And when you're telling them that, I think you're kind of there, you could be reminding them that their life is such that they have to be brave while other people are walking around, you know, smoking a. Smoking a fatty and, like, playing video games, and they're off having to be brave. They're like, this isn't fair. Like, I don't want this. Also, I don't want to be brave. I'm not looking to be brave. Trying to live a normal life here. I keep hearing you say it because I. And I feel it too. Like, it is a really nice message. You're a warrior. You can do it. That's great. Except on the day where I don't want to be treated that way. And then when you tell that to me, what I hear is, my life sucks. That's kind of the balance. And I don't know how you figure out what having.
- [27:45]
B
Yes, that's. Or having those feelings that, hey, I can be a warrior. I can achieve my goals, I can play on these sports teams, I can show up and get good grades in my classes. But also, is that what is. Is it okay to have these quote, unquote negative feelings towards diabetes? I think that's. We want to just, you know, give that permission to feel all of the feelings towards it. And sometimes when you are bombarded with that message of you're a brave warrior, it feels like maybe you're doing something wrong if you have that feeling.
- [28:19]
A
There's the saying, right, about. About having sand held in your hands, right. Hold it too loosely, it remains where it is. Squeeze it too tightly, it trickles out through your fingers. Like that kind of whole idea that that's acceptance, right? The open hand is acceptance. And squeezing it is. It's like it's an attempt to control something, and that never works out. And to bring that back to this is you or your loved one has, whether they know it or not, or care to or not, has a relationship with the fact that they have diabetes.
- [28:54]
B
Yes.
- [28:55]
A
Right. Or that their body is, you know, if it's, you know, something else that we're. That we're not talking about today, like another issue where your body is sending you grief by not doing what it is you wanted to do. Or that you were promised it would do. Yeah. And so there's something there about, like, you know, there's something about the sand metaphor and the you're so brave that to me fits together and they support each other. I don't know. I'm sorry, I can't bring the whole thought together. But anyway, think about that in your house and don't go too far in either direction. That's what I'm thinking. That make any sense?
- [29:27]
B
Yes.
- [29:27]
A
Did I just go down like a weird rabbit hole?
- [29:29]
B
It's so good. And I wish. I want to make a beautiful connection to the sand and bravery, but I think the acceptance piece and holding, you're doing what you can to live a healthy life. So you're holding it, but if, you know, if you're opening it up, your hands too much, maybe you're kind of. Maybe that's when you're in the stages of, you know, denial or. I'm sorry, I don't want. I don't want to hold everything. So there's some responsibility in holding the sand. Right. But then if you're squeezing it, trying to control it and manage it and shape it, and you're going to lose that sense of balance.
- [30:05]
A
Yeah. Anyway, I'm not the right one to tell you about Taoism, but, like, you know, I think somewhere in there there's a message.
- [30:12]
B
Okay.
- [30:12]
A
Yeah. Again, I don't know enough about it to talk about it. It's about control, you know, if you love something. But is it. If you love something, set it free. Right. Is that the idea? So there's something about the way you talk about those things to each other, to yourself, that holds a lot of power, depending on where the person is in their situation. And that's the most difficult thing. Like, I used to remember, I've joked with you before. Like I said to my wife, if there was just a warning light on your head that told me what mood you were in, I think this would all be so much easier. The toughness here is when you're supporting yourself or a loved one with diabetes, you don't know where they're at. When you deliver the you're so brave message, that's a difficulty of human communication. I don't know how to fix that. That's a podcast isn't going to help you with that.
- [31:04]
B
Yeah. Because basically, I know we're kind of going off tangent, but I think when you're telling somebody you are so brave, if they aren't feeling brave in the moment and they're feeling discouraged, and just so in deep despair or grief, then it feels like that feeling is being dismissed.
- [31:23]
A
It lands opposite. Yeah.
- [31:24]
B
Yeah.
- [31:24]
A
It lands opposite of how you mean it, and it lands opposite of how they could take it if they were in a different mind frame at that moment.
- [31:31]
B
So it is, It's, It's a, it is this, this gentle balance. Right. Because you're wanting to encourage.
- [31:36]
A
Yeah.
- [31:36]
B
While simultaneously mirror and validate what they're feeling or what yourself, what you're feeling. It's complicated.
- [31:43]
A
No, I, I, I have two children and a wife. I, I'm constantly looking for ways to make this. I figure it out right before I die. You know what I mean? Like, I have, like, a big moment. I'll go, oh, I got it. And then I'll be gone. I, I don't know. I've just, I've thought about it a lot. And, you know, for people who used to say, like, oh, the podcast will. Once Arden starts taking care of herself, there'll be nothing left to talk about. There's a lot left to talk about. There's a lot of things I did over the years that if I was the person I am now, just like with everything else, I would have done it differently or not at all. But at the same time, if you don't do the things. If I didn't do the things that I did, we wouldn't have got to where we are. So, I mean, I think that's life struggle in general. Right. Like, you, after you learn, you think, oh, I could do it better. But if you went back and did it better, what are the things you wouldn't have done that might have ended up being important? That would have gotten skipped? There's no real right answer. Oh, geez. Wow. Okay, I'm sorry. Go back to your thing, Erica. Be frightened before I jump out a window. Good.
- [32:40]
B
Oh, my gosh. Okay, I'm gonna take a deep breath, and we are gonna go into what can we do? Like, when you're noticing that you're in this fight stage of I'm gonna beat this thing. This is not gonna bring me down. And your body is giving you other cues that you are not feel, feeling very well physically, emotionally. So a lot of these tools are taken directly from the book, and these are actually tools that we've talked about before. But I like the, the labels that she uses. Okay, so noted. Practicing I am only human. And we're going to go through five different ways to do that. So taking a quote, planned rebellion, which in our, you know, world could look like Taking a technological, you know, tech break from your cgm, from your pumps. If you're feeling like, I just can't do this anymore, obviously, with, you know, the consultation of your doctor. And I think once you decide to either remove the pump or go into mdi, I think it's. Sometimes it can. You can feel maybe you enjoy the benefits, but then it's hard to go back. And so I like to remind people, giving. Giving yourself permission to. If you're. If you're on a pump and you go to MDI and you're. Then you feel like I should do. I want to go back to a pump. Like, go back for a day and. But give yourself permission to switch back. Because I think so often when we feel like there's so many, we feel trapped in a lot of ways. We do have some options in terms of how we manage and keeping that. Giving yourself permission and freedom to make those choices is really important.
- [34:17]
A
This first one, I won't. I won't stay here long with it. But it made me feel very good for Arden because I see her make those little rebellions, like her cgm, like, timed out yesterday. It. You know, I know some of you think that some of you talk about how your CGM doesn't last very long, and I'm not bragging here, obviously, it'd be a weird thing to brag about, but Arden's usually goes, you know, full 10 days, 12 hours. There's that loud beat that says, like, hey, you did it. You rode me as far as I can go. Like, this is done now. And she just sort of sits there and doesn't do anything about it, sometimes for a half an hour or an hour. And then eventually, and she's doing something, she made homework or she's studying or watching television or something, and she'll just sort of get up and put another one on. And I used to talk to her about, like, hey, if you put it on now, then when that one fails, this one will already be on. Or like, when we get to the end. And then it just hit me in the last year, I was like, she's doing this on purpose. Like, this is her own little planned rebellion. I didn't put them in those words, but that is. That's what she was doing. She was taking a moment and saying, I know I need this thing, and it helps me a lot, but I am just going to make a conscious decision not to wear it, even if it's just for a half an hour or so. Cool. All right.
- [35:28]
B
And it's okay.
- [35:29]
A
Yeah. It's not just okay. I think it's valuable.
- [35:32]
B
Yes. Yes. Thank you. Yes. Okay. The next one is called the unicorn complex, which is in the way she defines it, is, I'm stronger than other people. I will fight this thing, or, you know, I. I'm gonna nail this 100% time and tight range, 4 point something, a 1C. Nothing wrong with that, but noticing what is, what is underneath some of those thoughts and behaviors. And so noticing, okay, we are not unicorns, we are humans. And one way, if you feel like you're trapped in that mindset of just like, I have to get this right, I have to be straight lined or whatever it may be, to interrupt some of that thought process is to find some moments of gratitude. And maybe that can be as simple as, my body woke itself up from a low, or I just. Or I woke up, or I'm grateful for clean water, I'm grateful for clean air, or perhaps I'm grateful that my time and range went up by a half a point, or I'm grateful that my time and range went down, and I'm not going to shame myself or beat myself up for that. So just acknowledging the humanness and finding small or big things which you can be grateful for.
- [36:54]
A
I can see where this unicorn complex in certain disease states, if I'm in the last year of a cancer battle, then I think this is where my mind should be. Right. But with diabetes type 1, you know, or other issues, it's not always, you know, first and goal. And if we let them in, the game's over, like, and. But, you know, it can feel like that. And that, I think is important to not constantly be in this. Like, this is do or die every five seconds. You know what I mean?
- [37:29]
B
Yes. And it's just as hard as it is to get out of that mindset. It can be really easy to get into that. Right. Depending on your messaging, your own internal narrative, what you're exposing your mind and body to. And so it's so easy for us in the, you know, the diabetes world to get caught up in that.
- [37:50]
A
I. It's not. I do see a lot of people who feel like it's always. It's always do or die. Everything we're doing is just absolutely. This is it right here. Every. Every five seconds, they think they're in their last stand. It just occurred to me that I don't know what Arden's blood sugar is, and I haven't known for a really long time. So I brought it up because she's Taking a final. Right now, her blood sugar is 143. I hope that helps people to know that. Like, I. I didn't. I haven't known what her blood sugar's been since, I don't know, like, 7 o' clock this morning when I heard a beep and I was like, I wonder what that is? And it dipped under 70 for a minute. But this sits nine.
- [38:26]
B
Were there times maybe when you were.
- [38:28]
A
Oh, my God, looking at it? Yeah. No, I mean, there's times when I live my whole life thinking that, like, every second she was about to die. You know, there's stories are all over the podcast about where I had my little lessons along the way. And you know what? Technology has been helpful and not. But I guess what I'm saying is, again, like earlier is this. You're all going to go through this. Like, nobody's not going to go through this. You're either going to go through it or you're going to ignore it. And it's going to bother you in the back of your brain for the rest of your life, one or the other. It's not about avoiding it. It's about seeing it and finding a way. Whether it's through community support, someone in your family, something you read online, a book, doesn't matter to me. Like, where you figured out where you can look at the problem and say, okay, this is not a thing that needs my attention all the time. We're going to be okay if we're not talking about this every second of the day. Let's move on, find out what the next thing is and get past that.
- [39:22]
B
Yes.
- [39:23]
A
That just seems to be how it feels to me.
- [39:26]
B
Yes. Okay, this next one is kind of what I think you were alluding to when we first started chatting. The choosing your battles. So learning and understanding when to fight and accept what you need instead of fighting within yourself. So this might look like asking for accommodations in the schools, in your workplace, in your family system, as opposed to, I'm just going to push through. I'm not going to make them wait. I'm going to go do my thing. You know, this is kind of coming out from that apology stage where you're like, I'm sorry, I need to go do this. Please don't. You know?
- [40:02]
A
Yeah.
- [40:03]
B
And I have. I have a quote here. It's fairly long, so I don't know if I need to read it or not. Should I go for it?
- [40:09]
A
Yeah.
- [40:09]
B
Right. Okay. So this is. I don't know who this person is. Who wrote, who wrote this With. I was talking about body grief casually with a colleague, and she holds in person meetups for type ones. Grown up, grown up T1DS. And she sent me this quote from someone who went to the meetup. And I thought, oh, my gosh, this is exactly, you know, choosing your battles and building body trust. After the meetup, not only did I feel so much better about the decision to get surgery, but I also felt better about taking medical leave for more than a few days for it to really allow myself to care for my diabetes and allow it to impact my life instead of focusing so hard on trying to ignore that I'm chronically ill. It's a lesson that I'm working on that sometimes strength and being a warrior means fighting for rest and self care instead of fighting with myself to avoid being different than people who don't have disabilities. So I just love that, like, she's fighting for her time off. She's fighting and fighting to take care of herself, fighting to acknowledge that she might need more time to recover because of her diabetes or whatever it may be. And so I just want us to kind of consider being a T1D warrior. I think we automatically think, you know, pushing through, fighting for it, don't let it get in the way. But also it might mean fighting for that extra day off. Right. Or whatever. Whatever the. The lesson or example may be.
- [41:42]
A
Yeah. Live in the reality of your situation, too.
- [41:44]
B
Not.
- [41:45]
A
Not to like, yeah, I just had a procedure maybe nine days ago, and, you know, I remember saying to the doctor, like, when will I feel better? Because I. You'll be up and moving the next day. You'll be sore and stuff like that. And in my mind, I'm like, oh, so I'll be just be fine the next day. And then when I wasn't, instead of fighting it, I was like, yeah, I'm not. So I'll just take it easy. And I, you know, I didn't. I didn't want to take Advil afterwards, but. But I did. I was like, all right, it turns out I need this. Like, you know, like, I. And I think when I was younger, I'm trying to decide as we're talking, was I stronger and therefore more able to ignore the situation, even though I was going through it and now that I'm older, I can ignore it, or is this a maturity thing? And back then I was just being immature about it, and now I'm being more mature. I can't decide if. Which it is. Exactly. I don't think I'm going to know Ever. But that's my wonderment. It's like, is this maturity or is it a physical inability? And I don't think it matters one way or the other. I think I'm handling it better now than I would have in the past.
- [42:49]
B
Yeah, that's a great example. And I think the. Just noticing the why. Right again, going back to, okay, why am I pushing through? Am I not taking more time off because I'm worried about how people are going to perceive me? Is it a stigma thing? Is it, I have more physical endurance so I can, you know, what, what is it? Or is it, you know what? I, I need more time and I'm going to take it and that's okay.
- [43:15]
A
Yeah. And it's hard to say, but you know, if your job, for example, doesn't want to give you time, maybe that's not the right job for you. You know what I mean? Like, if your friends don't want to be supportive a little longer, maybe those aren't the right friends. I know that's a hard thing to say because at the end of those sentences you're alone or broke or whatever. You won't be alone or broke in your heart and in your day to day existence. And there's trade offs in there. I'd rather you feel centered and cared for personally than, I mean, don't get me wrong, like if once or twice you gotta tough it out and go to work when you're sick or something like that, like, it is what it is, but like not if it's pervasive over your entire life. That's different.
- [43:57]
B
You know, creeping into, you know, the boundary setting. Right. Like what it looks like and feels like for honoring what you need and how that might create discomfort for other people or your company.
- [44:10]
A
And I would say too, for people who maybe because you listen, you're a very kind person, you're well educated. We don't talk about it enough, but you are.
- [44:17]
B
Thank you.
- [44:17]
A
What did you just say? You just said making. What'd you say make you. Sometimes you say making space or would you just say boundary setting? Yeah. Let me put this another way. For people who, that, that is uncomfortable for because they're like, oh, that's, that's a therapy talk. Just tell people to go to hell.
- [44:33]
B
Okay, like, that is not what I'm saying.
- [44:36]
A
That's not what she said. That's what I'm saying. Okay, you call your job up and you say, listen, go yourself. Okay, I'll be back on Wednesday. And you'll live with it. And I do a good job here, and I've been here for four years and cut me a break. My thing don't work. That's it. And I don't want to hear about it.
- [44:52]
B
Let it be known that, yes, that is Scott's coping skill. Not.
- [44:55]
A
Yes, you would say set boundaries. That's nice. I would say maybe once in a while you got to tell people to shut the. Shut up. I'm over here trying to deal with a thing. Listen, my brother got sick a month ago, and, you know, I. I've told. Told. I don't want to, like, over, like Bullet, but he was hiding it a little bit from me. Like, we talk pretty frequently. It's his wife that stepped up and said, hey, he doesn't feel well. He doesn't want to tell you. I got him right on the phone. I was like, what's this going on? What are we, five? What's wrong? And like. And he explains to me what's going on. And I was like, where are they at? And he explains what the doctor says. I said, that's not right. I was like, I think this is what's going on with you and I. Over the next couple of days, remote controlled from halfway across the country. Moved him through some situations. Some doctor's appointments got him where he needs to be. And one of the last steps was I. People are gonna like. People are gonna like, oh, my God, you're outta your mind. I made him. I didn't make him. I asked him. He called his doctor's office, gave them permission for me to speak to them. I got on the phone with the nurse. I. I went over the entire thing. Not that my brother's not capable. My brother was at that moment on a factory floor running a giant press so that you guys all have something out in the world that you buy all the time. He couldn't not go to work. He had to go. He was sick. He was really in trouble. Terrible joint pain, rundown. Really in a bad way. I texted him, I said, I got you a doctor's appointment. I need you to leave work and go to this appointment. You have to take this appointment today. It's the only one they have. He says, I can't leave work. I was like, yes, you can. I was like, get out of there. I was like, you cannot afford not to leave work. Just leave. So he worked it out. He left, by the way, he filled out some paperwork. He got like some short term fmla. He got paid for it. It all worked out fine. But that is not why? I'm telling you the story. I'm telling you the story because we have a group chat, my brothers and I, and he said, I haven't had any pain for a week now. I'm really starting to feel better. I got my fmla. That worked out. I really appreciate everything you did for me. I would definitely still be in pain if you weren't involved.
- [47:02]
B
Aw.
- [47:03]
A
I'm telling you that because he wasn't capable, he was capable of handling the situation. He wasn't capable of, I'm going to use your word, of creating boundaries in places during the situation where he needed them. So because he wouldn't set a boundary at work, because he wouldn't set a boundary with the doctor and a couple of other places, they were stringing him along and leaving him in pain and telling him that what was true wasn't true because I don't know what's wrong with me. I stood up and I was like, no, we're right, they're wrong. Pushback. And he's like, well, I did, I said, I was like, no, no, no, no. And I got him on the phone and I just, I just said to him, I'm like, my brother clearly has an underlying infection. I was like your doctor being afraid to give him the right medication. I, I don't care about this anymore. Because what had happened was the doctor pushed him off on the er. The doctor didn't want to give him the, the antibiotic because he wasn't hitting the right markers, but it was clear what was wrong. So the doctor and sent him to the ER thinking the ER would do it. Well, the ER and sent him back to his doctor. So they started ping ponging him back and forth. The doctor actually sent him back to an ER the same ER the second time. And later during conversation admitted to him, I was just hoping they would give you the antibiotic. And so. Because I'll get in trouble if I give it to you. And then finally when he wrote the script, handed it to my brother and at the end said, I hope I don't get in trouble for this. And now Brian's fine. So nobody wanted to do the right thing for him. And if he wouldn't have set boundaries up or somebody wouldn't have set boundaries up, I honestly don't know where he'd be at this point.
- [48:41]
B
So probably still in pain.
- [48:43]
A
Well, with an underlying infection that nobody. And just because they couldn't find it, I mean it was one of those things where it walked like a duck, quack like a duck. And everybody was like, I see a horse. It just was terrible. Anyway, I'm saying, you know, based on what we're talking about here, choose your battles. Yes, but, you know, when they're right to have. Have them and when they're not. Don't torture yourself over them.
- [49:05]
B
Yes. And he might have been, even prior to your involvement, might have been in some of these stages of body grief.
- [49:11]
A
Oh, no. Yeah. I mean, if I go back in those texts, you're going to see like, I can't believe I feel like this. I can't pick my head up. Shock, cloudy. I can't make decisions. I mean, look at him. He's lying to me about how he feels.
- [49:23]
B
Dismissal.
- [49:25]
A
His wife is scared to tell me because she sheepishly told me she didn't want to break his trust. You know what I mean? Like, it's a lot of. Like, a lot of little human stuff that goes on. I'm sorry.
- [49:35]
B
Yes.
- [49:35]
A
It took you way off the course. Are we.
- [49:37]
B
Oh, that's so. Yeah. Fighting. Fighting for what you need. Right. Whatever that looks like is also being aware. Okay, so practicing being human. Noticing that envy might come up, right, as you are looking at graphs online or other social media posts or even seeing pictures of people going on vacation, and you're having these thoughts of, like, must be nice to go on a vacation and not have to bring. You think about all of our supplies, et cetera. Or, you know, they don't. They don't know how good they have it. They don't have a chronic illness, or. If only those were my numbers, then. Right. So noticing the envy is a natural human emotion, and sometimes it can be motivating, but it also can lead to a lot of shame. And it could also keep you in this fight mode. Right. Because you're. You're resentful, you're grieving, you're angry, and so it can keep you there, if that's what you're kind of filling your mind with. You're looking at images, hearing stories, and noticing these thoughts that are happening. So noticing, again, noticing what is going on as you think about this fight mode, is there a component of envy in addition to all of it? And that is normal. That is okay. And acknowledging it, processing it.
- [51:01]
A
Yeah. But it can keep you in the flow.
- [51:03]
B
Yes.
- [51:03]
A
So, you know, you have to, again, process it. You got to move past it at some point.
- [51:08]
B
Yes. Okay. And the last one is. She coined this term, which I've never heard before. I don't know if you have Jomo. It's like, we Know fomo, right. Fear of missing out. But she uses this term Jo Mo, the joy of missing out. Noticing, are there times when you need to say no in order to take care of your body instead of feeling like you have to say yes? And can you reframe that as like, gosh, you know what? I'm gonna. I'm gonna build this body trust. I'm gonna give my body what it needs. In order to trust my body, my body has to trust me that I'm gonna take care of it. So I'm gonna say no to some things that might be there, might be positive. And I'm thinking about just events, but it could be something even smaller where it's a way to be really kind to your body. And can that be experienced as joyful instead of fearful? I know it's kind of a twist and a tweak on that phrase, but I really liked that way of thinking about it.
- [52:11]
A
I'm glad you brought that up. The one thing that seems like it could be the most difficult around this is figuring out the difference between a limitation that is genuinely limiting and you want to reach for some Jomo, and a limitation that is more about a blockade you've put up for yourself. And if you did push through, you'd get on the other side of it. Like, that's. That's a tough one because I, you know, I think this is. Everybody's gone through that, and everybody's known somebody going through it. Right. But I've got somebody in my life right now who's having a struggle. And part of it is completely legitimate, and part of it is. Is a little self sabotage too. How do you show them, no, this is real, but your response to it is keeping you there. And even if you show it to them, how do they believe it and move past it? Again, it's all very interesting. I appreciate the conversation.
- [53:09]
B
I think that's a great point. And I think that maybe we don't want to go too deep into this at this point, but I think that the concept of. Yeah. How do you respond to either a painful situation, diagnosis, whatever it may be that you're struggling with? I don't think anyone intentionally is choosing self sabotage, but there's. There's obviously. And I don't hear you suggesting that at all.
- [53:32]
A
I just feel like she's. This person's had so many struggles and so many failures that they just think that this is the reality now.
- [53:39]
B
Yes.
- [53:40]
A
You know, and. And the fighting seems. It seems pointless because everything keeps going wrong all the time. And what I see in this specific situation is a couple of decisions here or there made differently would have put them in a different situation. They might not feel like that anymore, but then that's, you know, still not how it occurred to them at the time. And I can't stand next to them or somebody else. Somebody else can't stand next to you all the time going, oh, is that what you thought? No, it's not left. It's right. Yeah, I don't know. It's. Being alive is a lot of work. It really is.
- [54:17]
B
It is. And we are going to get to our hope is that the end of each of these episodes we are giving some tools to kind of work through the stage and at the end, obviously focusing on cultivating more hope, cultivating more body trust to help kind of work your way through all of the stages.
- [54:36]
A
Yeah.
- [54:37]
B
But it is, it is hard. It is hard work.
- [54:39]
A
I certainly hope that is what we're doing.
- [54:41]
B
Yes.
- [54:41]
A
So hopefully thank you very much for doing this with me. I really appreciate Scotty going on vacation. So I'll be back and we'll finish this up in a couple of weeks.
- [54:49]
B
You're out.
- [54:50]
A
Thank you.
- [54:51]
B
Thank you.
- [54:58]
A
I'd like to remind you again about the mini Med 780G automated insulin delivery system, which of course anticipates, adjusts and corrects every five minutes 24 7. It works around the clock so you can focus on what matters. The Juicebox community knows the importance of using technology to simplify managing diabetes. To learn more about how you can spend less time and effort managing your diabetes, Visit my link medtronicdiabetes.com Diabetics juice box having an easy to use and accurate blood glucose meter is just one click away. Contour next.com juicebox that's right. Today's episode is sponsored by the Contour Next Gen blood glucose meter. Hey, I'm dropping in to tell you about a small change being made to the Juice Cruise 2026 schedule. This adjustment was made by Celebrity Cruise Lines, not by me. Anyway, we're still going out on the Celebrity beyond cruise ship, which is awesome. Check out the walkthrough video@juicebox podcast.com JuiceCruise the ship is awesome. Still a seven night cruise. It still leaves out of Miami on June 21st. Actually, most of this is the same. We leave Miami June 21st, head to Coco Cay in the Bahamas, but then we're going to San Juan, Puerto rico instead of St. Thomas after that. Basteria. I think I'm saying that wrong. St. Kitts and Nevis. This place is gorgeous. Google it. I mean, you're probably gonna have to go to my link to get the correct spelling because my pronunciation is so bad. But once you get the St. Kitts and you Google it, you're going to look and see a photo that says to you, oh, I want to go there. Come meet other people living with type 1 diabetes, from caregivers to children to adults. Last year we had 100 people on our cruise and it was fabulous. You can see pictures again at my link juicebox podcast.com juicecruise you can see those pictures from last year there. The link also gives you an opportunity to register for the cruise or to contact Suzanne from Cruise Planners. She takes care of all the logistics. I'm just excited that I might see you there. It's a beautiful event for families, for singles, a wonderful opportunity to meet people, swap stories, make friendships and learn. My Diabetes Pro Tip Series is about cutting through the clutter of diabetes management to give you the straightforward, practical insights that truly make a difference. This series is all about mastering the fundamentals, whether it's the basics of insulin dosing, adjustments or everyday management strategies that will empower you to take control. I'm joined by Jenny Smith, who is a diabetes educator with over 35 years of personal experience, and we break down complex concepts and into simple, actionable tips. The Diabetes Pro Tip Series runs between episode 1,000 and 1,025 in your podcast player, where you can listen to it@juiceboxpodcast.com by going up into the menu. Have a podcast. Want it to sound fantastic? Wrongwayrecording. Com.