B (2:44)

Well, first she notices that the front door is open, right?

A (2:48)

Yeah.

B (2:48)

And then that's kind of creepy. And she's like, hello, hello, hello. And nobody's there. And she just doesn't notice anything out of place. I think the first time she noticed anything that seemed out of place, according to the series Is like there was a little what looked like blood on the sink. And so she thought that maybe it was one of her ear piercings.

A (3:07)

Oh, okay, right, yeah. Like you know when you take out an earring and you're like oh my God, that did not do well with my ear today. And you have like a dot of blood.

B (3:14)

Right. And so then they, and then they kind of show her taking a shower and then she comes out and she looks out on the mat that apparently she never noticed that the mat was kind of covered with blood. And then she still doesn't really think of anything because she thinks it's more of a time of the month type of thing.

A (3:28)

And then of maybe, of maybe a room of the roommate because they all shared the bathroom.

B (3:32)

Right. And now. And then for one reason. Yeah. Then she notices the poop. And I guess these were girls that if they, they didn't not flush, which is typically more male thing.

A (3:42)

Do you know just because this is Juicy Crimes you guys. And it's coming from a point of view. Do you know who was accused of that? Not shitting and not flushing.

B (3:52)

Who?

A (3:52)

Britney Spears back in the day. Yeah, there was a story about that. Numerous stories of where she just wouldn't flush. And then we had, we did an entire after lately episode about it when I was at Chelsea lately because there was someone in the girls bathroom that was a con. There was someone who was constantly not flushing really in the women's bathroom. We found out who it was.

B (4:21)

And did you.

A (4:21)

We did a juicy crime on it. We did.

B (4:25)

And did you ever confront the accuser or not the accused?

A (4:30)

We knew and then okay, it was this girl that was allegedly, I'm just say allegedly she was like a short lived assistant. I'm just going to say that. I'm not going to say who it was for. And the reason we know is because when I walked in yet again to that bathroom there was a sticky like, like, like this. Okay. Fold it up. And it had fallen into the toilet. And she's doing, with writing, with writing on it.

B (5:01)

She's doing work while she's shitting.

A (5:03)

So I, I did get it. I picked it out, I took the piece of paper, I let it dry out and it was a flight, flight information for the person she was working for. We matched it up. We're like who's going on this flight? So then we knew it's. She is the assistant. She wrote down the flight number. She was doing her work. She is not. She's. And not flushing.

B (5:29)

Well. Do you think that maybe she only did it didn't.

A (5:34)

Can you stop thinking about a defense attorney? She doesn't flush. Okay.

B (5:38)

No, but maybe she didn't flush that time because the paper accidentally fell in and she knew that the paper. Paper was not disposable. And that could have started Shannon.

A (5:46)

A tiny piece of paper like this is disposable. It was smaller than this. It was a post it.

B (5:50)

She might have thought so.

A (5:52)

Then I did it and we actually did a reenactment for after lately, which then I was accused of being a disgusting person. And I was like, I like true crime and I'm a mother.

B (6:02)

Yeah.

A (6:03)

So does not scare me. And you have. Even if it's not mine or my kids or my offspring or my dog.

B (6:09)

And I'm pretty sure you've dug out the past in for your family.

A (6:13)

Correct. I mean, yeah. Like, I've never been scared of like I've changed babies that aren't mine. Like a babysat like baby. Any kind of. It doesn't really. And I was going to solve this and I wanted to get a gold star.

B (6:28)

Yeah.

A (6:29)

At this. So we did realize who it was. I don't think we ever confronted her. But she eventually left.

B (6:36)

Okay.

A (6:37)

She also was lying about a star from friends that she was fucking. Oh. But let's get back to the crime, which is a real murder. Okay. So she sees that and she's like, whatever. And according to the series, she goes. Goes off and meets again with Rafaella who comes to the house because she says, I'm a little freaked out. Can you come over? And even when she reaches out to her friend about being freaked out, the friend kind of jokes about it like, oh, get. Oh, really? You know, like they're kind of jokingly. Oh, really? Like something's. Yeah. Bad, badly happening. Like, don't jump to conclusions. We then jumping to. We then find that their. Her roommate in which the door was locked. Dead body is found. Now I just want to jump back to the very beginning of the show.

B (7:29)

Okay.

A (7:31)

It is such a weird tone. Yes, I agree. I'm like, what is this? It's basically like the beginning of like a rom com when they're like. And there's a voiceover and they're like, let me tell you how this started.

B (7:44)

Yeah.

A (7:45)

And I'm like, what? So it starts out with like, she's. All of a sudden it's like, my mom was this person, my dad was this person and they made me. It's literally like the TikTok. And I'm like, are you kidding me? And then she's like. And I was always that kid that was like, hey, everybody, I want to travel. And I was like, I thought it was. Whoever thought of that? Maybe she. I saw one interview where she's like, I want. It's been 20, almost 20 years. Because the. The crime happened in 2007. It's almost been 20 years. She is free now. She's been. And we're going to walk through it all, but she's been married for a while. She has two small children and of course doing podcasts with her husband and stuff, which is fine. And an author. And she's. I think she wanted to have that. I would be surprised if maybe they were like, I don't know. I don't know who decided that that was a thing.

B (8:42)

I think she was trying to introduce herself as someone that, you know, I'm not. I don't have these deep seated issues. I didn't have a troubling past. I think she was trying to put that out ahead of time.

A (8:53)

Yeah.

B (8:53)

Kind of let the audience know. This is why the trauma was even greater. Because I left. I live this pretty seemingly normal life.

A (9:01)

But I agree. I think the totally good point. But like trying to be like, I. I guess I'm just like adverse to people that are not funny that then later in life, like, think that they're funny. Whether it's a housewife doing like ridiculous sketches on TikTok, though they have every right to do it. It's just like, I don't know, there's just something about it where I'm like, can you stick to your lane? But I get it.

B (9:26)

And I think what was kind of weird for me too is that it's pretty clear as the show goes on. I think that they're. We're only into three episodes as we're giving this podcast, but they do the same thing with the prosecutor. They kind of tell him this weird background story too. Yes, you're right. And it. So it's you. It's pretty clear that they're sort of giving background as to maybe why these two people had such a different take on this, unfortunately, this horrible crime.

A (9:55)

I'm going to say in the little research I've done and just like seeing people review it and stuff, I don't think this is really being that well received. I don't really think it's too long. I think there's too much Italian speaking with subtitles.

B (10:10)

There is a lot and a lot in the beginning.

A (10:13)

And I'm like, I think I would have just Done Italian accents and just had it in English.

B (10:20)

Right.

A (10:21)

With the detectives and everybody else. But maybe they really needed to do that because that was her perspective of not understanding. I get that.

B (10:27)

Yeah.

A (10:28)

But like the store for the storytelling at home, I think it kind of loses people.

B (10:33)

That might be the case. But I definitely think that that is the big. Because everyone's like, my God, how could you have gotten this so wrong? I think there's a lot of people that are like, why didn't you get a lawyer sooner? I mean, I think there's a lot of people. If you look back at the kids case, like, you. You know, we would have. You would have handled it better. And so I think she's trying to kind of show how it got just completely out of control from her perspective, which I think they do a pretty.

A (10:56)

Good job on that. So as someone that was following this case every time there was. Because it went on for so long, just to give the basics, she does get convicted with her boyfriend, along with another man, Rudy, for doing the crime. And the prosecution thought that the three of them were involved and built that case. They thought it. They were into like a sex crazy thing and a sex tryst or sacrifice or something went. Went wrong or it was intentional. And Meredith died in this. Which is, you know, really crazy when you think that she was just a cute college girl a couple years ago, and then she'd only known this guy for eight days. So really that you're gonna meet and get into this kind of sick shit within eight days of just fuck. Like, like just being a new couple. And so in. In doing that, I think, you know, we're. We're watching this. And back in the day when there were 2,020s and datelines and stuff, when I first heard about it, it really was her initial reaction when the cops come and they're filming her and she's kissing Raphael and she's not just kissing him, like, and he kisses her head and holds her.

B (12:10)

They like.

A (12:11)

Or like multiple kissing. Like, like, like, like, almost ready to, like, slip tongue. At least that's what they showed in the movie. And if this is her movie, I think she's portraying what really was seen. I remember seeing way too much sexual affection right after the murder.

B (12:30)

And.

A (12:31)

And so there's initially. That's what turned America, media, everybody, and certainly the Italians against her was this moment, which I've talked about this before, but there's been moments in watching True Crime where an isolated incident of someone, you know, laughing, or even if it was Karen Reed laughing Or something? Like, can you not, like, during your trial, can you not laugh for the next four years? Like, can you not be seen enjoying a tuna fish sandwich if, like, you're on trial for murder? But this was the day of. Like, this was the day of. And it did look weird.

B (13:08)

Well, I mean, I think now we know a little bit more about trauma. I mean, I don't even think back in 2007, there was really enough, even from America's perspective, what how people can react to trauma. There was pretty much one view, and this clearly was not the view, because I think they do a pretty good job on the show. They show the other roommates, the other people crying, freaking out. It was almost like it hadn't hit her yet. And then there's times later on in the show where she kind of says, is this really true? Did they really find a body? Like, the. It was almost like she hadn't really come to terms with it because they.

A (13:41)

Had to break open the roommate's door. That's when they saw that there was a body covered over a sheet.

B (13:48)

Right.

A (13:49)

And one of the things that the prosecutor said was, well, it's more likely that a female killer will cover a body versus a male killer. And that's just. There's no facts to that.

B (14:04)

Correct.

A (14:04)

And, yeah.

B (14:06)

And most people would say, yeah, probably, But, I mean, you're gonna convict somebody on that. Yeah, yeah.

A (14:11)

I remember in another case of. Remember the Spectre case, Phil Spector.

B (14:16)

Yes.

A (14:16)

Who was. Was convicted of killing this young girl. He said that she got to his house for the first time after meeting her at a bar, and she ended up killing herself with his gun. But then there was all this testimony that he would play with guns and have women put guns in their mouths, everything. And one of the things was women, especially very attractive women, very rarely will end their life like that, destroying their face.

B (14:44)

That's interesting.

A (14:44)

So, I mean, it kind of makes sense, but is there really, like. Is it really, like a Stanford study on it? I don't know, but I always thought, well, that makes sense. Like, it's kind of like, oh, well, that. That kind of makes sense. But it's not like a fact. It's like an opinion. So the one roommate's boyfriend or somebody breaks open the door, they see. They have the police coming. We see the sad makeout stuff. And this is where, you know, there's been so much written on this and done it. We are not experts. We did not read every book. But where I. Where I was confused in the show, it wouldn't show it and maybe this didn't happen. Wouldn't you call your mother and father first and say, I cannot believe it. My. My roommate is. Is dead. If she's dead, like, I. Can you guys come here? Can you be here? Can you. I wouldn't be assuming I would be thought of the murderer.

B (15:39)

Correct.

A (15:39)

But I would be like, I'm not staying here. Clearly, I'm not gonna stay here another night.

B (15:43)

Right.

A (15:43)

And like, my roommate's dead.

B (15:46)

Right.

A (15:46)

And I'm 20 years old. Like, what.

B (15:48)

I mean, I think she did. Did call them, but she told them kind of don't come yet because she kind of felt like, I'm a witness and, you know, you're being kind of. Of course. And then there was this weird scene that they call the police, but the police that come are more of like a lower level police.

A (16:07)

Right.

B (16:07)

And they're coming in because they found the phone. They found Meredith's phone. And of course, at this point in time, we don't know, you know, who killed. Right. And then they seem like, well, what do you mean the phone? And then you have the Lost in translation, and they seem weird and nervous and why are you here so soon? So they kind of, those police officers kind of said they're acting odd because, you know, they called us or they. Or. Or they say they called us, but they act like they were surprised to see us. And I think they were surprised to see us because they came so quickly because they were not the police officers they expected. Expected to see at that time.

A (16:43)

Yeah.

B (16:44)

So there's. There's all those little behavioral issues that seem odd.

A (16:49)

And.

B (16:49)

And then we find out that the other roommates that I think are maybe from Italy or from Germany or other areas of Europe don't particularly like Amanda. It almost seemed like of the four roommates, Amanda and Meredith, or at least the way they portray it, were very, very close. And maybe they were close because they both spoke English.

A (17:07)

English, right. Yeah. They were like, immediately not on her side or saying, oh, she would never, or anything like that. When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp, the secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans, send event invites, and pin messages so no one forgets. Forgets Mom's 60th.

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A (18:14)

And so then she goes to the police station and this is where the loss in translation. And you know, just like anybody when you're American, the berating of long, long questioning to the point where then you. You might do a false confession. You might say the wrong thing. You might, you know, even if you're the real Houses of Sea, you might say the wrong thing in the back of a car after filming for two days straight and being confused and then say, well, no, that was a false confession. I didn't mean to say that. And so that. That happens. And that's where she. Which is this part was so interesting where she kind of implicates her boss, right? Named Patrick Loom. Lumambi. Luombe. Because she worked at a bar, right? And she's. So that's important to the case because later on by just saying that, just like saying it in which. Don't you think that's crazy? That then they accused her and convicted her of defamation just because she said, like, it might be this person in a confessional. I know it's a different country, but isn't that crazy?

B (19:33)

Well, it's kind of crazy. And she does feel guilty about it. I mean, I think it's kind of crazy because that is the product of. Of the interrogation. And the way they show it is they're literally like. To bombarding her so much the point where like, she was like, I don't know if I really remember. I remember seeing him. Why did I say that? And it was so weird because she kind of. He says, I don't think, you know, you don't need to work tonight. She's like, great, see you later. Which obviously in America.

A (19:59)

On a text.

B (19:59)

Yeah, on a text. We'll see you later. Or the way it's in translated in Italian, they interpret it as I'll see you later tonight when we have this, you know, sex.

A (20:09)

Sex trist or whatever.

B (20:11)

And maybe something will go terribly wrong. Like it's. It's so crazy. But then she keeps seeing his name and his name and she's kind of thinking, because they're also kind of leading, give us something and then we'll release you. There's always that innuendo. And now in the show, by the time she Actually says it. They give her of course, a statement that's written all as a confession. It's in Italian, we don't know yet. I think she even mentions earlier, I can't really, I understand it, but I, or I can speak it and understand a little bit.

A (20:43)

I don't read it.

B (20:44)

So of course it's an Italian. And she just signs it. She signs it because she's almost, she's numb really. It's almost an out of body experience when you kind of have all this sort of. Even to the point where I think the translator is kind of jumping in on the whole interrogation which of course, if that ever happened, that's ridiculous. You don't have seven people just jumping on somebody. But that's the way it's portrayed, portrayed.

A (21:09)

And so I mean, you know, it's such a long situation with, you know, then of course, of course the, you know, the parents finally like are like what? You know, and they're trying to get attorneys from America over there. But it is like off and running and it is the hottest story in Italy of like what, what? You know, it sells tabloids. It sells. It's clickbait. I mean, right. It's definitely, you know, any story that, I mean like in a Megan Markle's defense, when somebody puts something with Meghan Markle or Taylor Swift in any kind of story, then that, that does get a click. So as many, so they. There are editors that just tell their writers like no matter what, we saw it with OJ Every nine on Hard Copy. This person, Cato. Cato had a friend from college that we're going to speak to, like whatever it is. So it was juicy and there was this element that Italy being, you know, Roman Catholics that you know, started Catholicism essentially that it's a more conservative place. And they were out to get this slut, this American slut that like was screwing this guy after knowing almost him only for a few days and they were into some sick shit that went.

B (22:30)

Awry was very much like the Scarlet Letter. I think a lot of it was. I mean, looking now back at it almost like, you know, like, you know, the crazy immigrant that comes to Europe. And even though Meredith was also an immigrant to Italy, she was still in Europe. But you know, we have a totally different hemisphere person coming in and it's kind of this like. I agree it's very salacious. I think at different times they kind of ask her to write down all how many partners she has at this time. I think she's 20 and I think she writes something like seven partners down, but then they turn it into she had seven partners since she's been here, and she may have only been here, you know, six to eight months. And that's not what she was saying she was writing. Her partner said she, I think, became sexually active at 18.

A (23:15)

So did she have 20 or did she have 7?

B (23:17)

She had 7, but I think.

A (23:18)

Where did the 20 come from?

B (23:20)

I don't know. I did. Not that. That's not something I heard seven, but maybe they just added to it. Oh, yeah. But I think the way it, you know, what she indicated was in this time I had seven. Which of course, till to them they're going to say it's too much. But then you couple with the. The roommates who said she was. I think they mentioned that she was bringing guys over every night. And then, you know, until she met maybe Rafaeli. So she asked. She might have been enjoying and having her best life, but it certainly wasn't.

A (23:49)

The point of doing deviant sexual stuff.

B (23:53)

Yeah, correct. I think it was. Honestly, I think it was a lot of the behavior in the beginning, which is really amazing because I think the way it's. It's done is the prosecutor. This is where it gets kind of weird because it goes back into his background and it kind of makes it almost sound like he is a disciple from God who is here to anoint. It's his duty to find the bad people. And he believes it's her. And then he. And then he rests on that because he thinks he has a confession. And then when the DNA evidence doesn't seem to run in his favor, he just goes, but it could be another theory. And he just comes with a theory.

A (24:34)

And what is the DNA that comes out?

B (24:37)

Okay, so this is the DNA essentially that comes out that connects Amanda and Raphael to this crime scene. Is that her DNA is found on. I think it's found on both a knife and a. A bra clamp of Meredith's that was perhaps at the house, but also maybe a knife at Rafaeli's. Well, if she's spending seven or eight nights at Rafaeli's, her DNA is going to be on a knife because she's not walking around with gloves. And then, if you recall, they send her to the house, assuming with no gloves on it, because it wasn't a very clean scene to go through the knife drawer to tell us which knife is missing. Well, she's touching the knife handles right there, and she, you know, freaks out and cries. So they really build a lot on her ability. Now she's crying and she didn't cry when it happened because she's this cold blooded killer, but she's crying now because she's realizing what she's done. And they just run with that theory, period. And then it is a little concerning because like, how did your DNA get on the knife? But it's like, well, it could have been anywhere. It could have been. It could have been from that. It doesn't look great, but it could have been from anywhere. And I don't know if we ever really determined that this was the knife that matched the wound. I don't even know if that was ever really determined. That's why this case is kind of insane that it ended up.

A (26:04)

And the DNA does match this guy Rudy, right. Because he was, it was a seaman. So he had sex with her, whether that was consensual or not.

B (26:16)

But there's also a bloody print and.

A (26:18)

There'S match that matched his hand as well.

B (26:20)

Right. So that case is actually pretty open and shut. He says, oh, I was there, but then there was this anonymous killer that came in.

A (26:28)

I laughed, we had sex and I left. And then somebody must have come and killed her.

B (26:33)

And that is a more what we call a standard case that the prosecution should definitely be able to convict and in fact did. That's a scary thing, is that in 2008, this Rudy character, Guera and is convicted and she's not convicted yet. And is he just some.

A (26:50)

He was just some guy that was like at the bar, worked at the bar. Did they know who he was or was he just like a. Like a mic, like not a migrant, but like, was he just like. What do you call it? Like a traveler? You know, like.

B (27:06)

Yeah, it could have been a traveler. It could have been a situation where Meredith might be. It might have been a consensual night out. I don't know.

A (27:14)

Can we just. Can you just look up on your phone about. And we don't have to cut this part out. I just want to know because there's so many elements, you guys, Rudy, who was convicted in the Amanda Knox thing, what was his job and where was he from? Because I can't. I can't remember. Did he also work at the bar or something like that? Because I'm remembering all these people that she said the Patrick guy worked at the bar, that she got in trouble for defaming him, according to the Italian police. And then this Rudy guy, I don't know if she knew him or not.

B (27:47)

Well, I mean, I do remember from the Show. And you might remember too that they do say that the evidence, some forensic evidence, clearly belonged to an African American. They definitely said that. So I think that's why Patrick, all of a sudden when they saw the text, they really wanted to jump.

A (28:02)

I guess it wouldn't be an African American if he was an American. Well, you know what I mean, Someone with African ethnicity.

B (28:07)

Yeah. A black person.

A (28:09)

Yes. It says he did not have a defined job. He had a long like history of.

B (28:15)

Break ins and other offenses. See, he had a record.

A (28:19)

So he was like a small time criminal that was going around.

B (28:23)

Right.

A (28:24)

And he probably had other crimes in his past, maybe assault as well, that were just not convicted.

B (28:31)

Well, and that would lead me to believe that there was no. This guy, did not know Meredith. That unfortunately she was probably just a product of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Yeah. Which all. It does show. It does show.

A (28:42)

So that she and her boyfriend would meet this random dude and be like, let's all have a four way sex sexcapade. Well, remember kill my roommate.

B (28:51)

Remember there was a window that was broken into. I mean, there was clearly a window that was broken into. But the prosecutor made it sound like, what is he, Spider man? How was it broken into? So, almost made it sound like it's an inside job. Like I'm inside and now I'm breaking the window.

A (29:04)

As opposed to make it appear.

B (29:06)

Yeah, as opposed to I, I'm breaking the window to come in. But I don't think it looked impossible for the guy to get up on the window. I mean, you don't know. I mean, but they made it sound like that must be an inside job. Now, especially when you look at crimes today. I mean, there are ways to show whether the window was broken from the inside out to the outside in. I mean, there are just much more technical stuff that's done today that can determine that where whether this is an inside job or a random person who may have seen her walking home.

A (29:36)

And I'm. I'm guessing there was just so much shoddy police work as far as like not securing the place.

B (29:44)

Well, remember the other thing that was so interesting was that the coroner was there and he goes, I need to do my job. And they go, no, but we need to start investigating. So the coroner didn't come in there for like too late. So then the big issue was what is the time of death? Because time of death has to be determined immediately based on the temperature of the body, among other things. That was never done. So then the coroner admits, you know, I don't know. I don't know the actual time. And of course, the prosecutor's trying to, you know, well, it could have been this time, it could have been that time. And then I think the guy ends up being fired because it's messing up the prosecution's theory of what in fact happened. I think what's more disturbing about this entire case is how long this really unsubstantiated theory went on for. I think that's really the travesty. And when they call it the twisted case of Amanda Knox, that's really the travesty.

A (30:41)

I mean, it's just so horrific to think that you're just this, you know, upper middle class girl, right, who is like, yeah, I'm gonna do, you know, a year. I mean, I've always. I haven't done a lot of travel. And from the moment I saw. What was it called? The Palace, Claire Danes and that other.

B (31:00)

Girl, I remember this.

A (31:01)

What was that name of that movie? And these two young girls are having a really fun time. They're like in Thailand and all these places, and they, they get wrapped up in kind of like, like taking some drugs for a guy and bringing him here or there or whatever. And then they also go to a hotel and like, have a fun day at the hotel. I remember the scene. And they just are lying about their room so they can put like all the food on a room. And then that is, in fact, like what gets them arrested, I think. I don't know. It was crazy. I don't know if it was. I don't know if it's based on true story, but it was that kind of story. So there's a whole series called Locked Up Abroad. There was a movie. There was a movie I saw when I was way, way too young, I want to say. It was called Midnight Express. Okay, can you look up Midnight Express movie? I mean, I. I think I was like six watching this movie, like at home. And it was again, a guy who was in a foreign prison, like Turkey or something, for doing some crime based on his true story, true life and how he gets out. And I remember, like, there was some nudity in it. So that's what. Remember, like, his girlfriend or wife comes to visit him and is talking to him and, like, she pushes her boobs up against the glass. You can, like, see him. And then she gives him a book of photos and she's like, hinting that there's something underneath the photos.

B (32:32)

Okay.

A (32:32)

To help get him out.

B (32:33)

Oh, like how I got it.

A (32:35)

And it's always just freaked me out so much. To be convicted or in prison for a crime you didn't commit. But not in America. Oh yeah, like you think America's hell. I mean, this story, the fact that she was there for so long and even though these people were of means, they're not. They're not. Jeff Bezos means.

B (32:59)

Right.

A (32:59)

Like eventually, like, what are you going to do? And just to think that they went through Christmases and at Christmas party and like, how's Amanda doing? Well, she's still in prison because she does get convicted.

B (33:10)

Right.

A (33:10)

And is set to do 26 years for this crime.

B (33:15)

Right.

A (33:16)

What was the name? Did you look it up? Yeah, it was made in 1978. Yeah, made in 1978. What am I doing at 8 years old watching an R rated movie about a guy.

B (33:30)

Right.

A (33:30)

And what was the synopsis he got? Can you read the synopsis of the movie real quick? Well, he was caught by the Turkish police while attempting to smuggle hash out of Istanbul. And he was sent to prison for four years. Yeah, he was sent to prison for four years. Okay, I just want to say.

B (33:45)

Well, this is.

A (33:46)

Can I just say that me at 8 years old, I remembered that it was a Turkish prison. I'm telling you, it was a huge movie. It was a big.

B (33:53)

But it was a big movie.

A (33:54)

It left such an impression. And then to see the Claire Danes and the other girl get sent to the Thai prison. And then this was so disturbing to me. Right in the beginning.

B (34:06)

Yeah.

A (34:06)

I was like, I don't. I think from the moment they started to report on it, like on Dateliner 2020, it was saying that this was shoddy police work and stuff. But they were saying how they came up with it with her, like making out with the boyfriend and stuff.

B (34:22)

Right.

A (34:23)

I wonder if. And people have brought this up, could she have been somewhat on the spectrum? Is she just kind of an odd girl? Could it be that she just doesn't react in a more typical way? But again, what we always say on this show is who's to say how you're supposed to react when something so shocking happens and what you're thinking of. And there is no, like the minute you find out your wife has been gone missing, you're supposed to fall to the ground, roll around, cry, throw up, then put up signs, not go to bed, not talk to anybody. Like, who's to say what you're supposed to do?

B (35:00)

Well, I think based on her age and the fact that she was. This was not her where she's from, but really the age is the naivety. I mean, if you really look at it, that's what's been played up. For example, she realizes I don't, you know, that she didn't really remember. Now she has clarity. So I'm going to talk to the prosecutor, and I'm going to write this whole statement all over again, and everything will be cleared up. And that is a very normal way for a young person to think. I have been taught that law enforcement is going to protect me. There's no reason why they won't. I'm having a great time. I have met great people here. Meredith was a good friend. They will understand and they don't. And it's all very contrived. And so, yes, that's when, obviously, when the parents came in, and then they hired private counsel and a council that could maybe explain from America the translation, but also understand Italian. You know, in the beginning, she's given counsel, and I'm sure counsel's fine, but they're Italian counsel. And it's pretty evident from the way this show is portrayed. And this makes sense. Everyone's kind of, you know, in the same. They're all kind of working together, even though they're working differently. I think there's a time where they're talking about house arrest or a bail hearing or is she going to be likely to flee? And it's in this little tiny table, kind of like what we're at. And then, you know, in Italian, and she doesn't really understand. Are you formally objecting? He goes, well, I'm making my argument like, you know, because the prosecutor kind of looks at what we would call maybe a public defender and say, you know, come on, you know, you know, make your argument, whatever. But, you know, this. She. This woman should not go back to America based on what I believe she's done. And I'm the prosecutor, right.

A (36:44)

I mean, I do have to say, if you're really up for murder, you shouldn't be. Correct. Go back to your hometown. Like, I mean, you really shouldn't.

B (36:51)

Correct. And I think from that perspective, usually whoever would be representing somebody accused of murder knows it's an uphill battle to get house arrest, when clearly the first thing she's going to do on house arrest is leave the country. Now, obviously, maybe they would say, no, don't leave the country. But now she's stuck in this situation. Where are they going to protect her, too? Because now they have basically tainted the media. I mean, it was almost like, you know, you're, like, burned at the Stake. Right. It's a Joan of Arc story.

A (37:19)

Well, that's why she said she connected with Monica Lewinsky. Because, you know, with Monica Lewinsky, it was really, I mean, talk about perspective, right? 30 years later of a crime. I know. You know, this girl was barely out of college, and was she excited that the president was, like, flirting with her and was like, come give me a bj?

B (37:43)

Yeah, yeah, she was.

A (37:45)

She was excited. Talk about a great story to take back to the sorority sisters. I fucking. Yeah, you blew. You blew a football player. But I blew the president. Like, come on. You know, And. And then she, you know, shares her secret with the Linda Tripp. And again, again, it all goes back to Housewives. Whether Gretchen told Katie or not, she thought it's just going to be between us.

B (38:08)

Right.

A (38:08)

She didn't know that Kiki Monique was going to be working for the government. Like, it's just so. It's so, so true. It's like you think that whole story. So they. She, of course. And I remember, like, thinking back then, like, oh, my God, I wonder if Monica Lewinsky will ever get married. Being that we're like the same age and kind of which is women our age wanted to get married at 30. I know it's a different story now, but we want to get kind of married by 30, have the babies by 35. Like, that's what people our age wanted. I'm like, I wonder if she'll, like, find some great looking, you know, good, good guy and get married and have kids and live a traditional life. And her name was so synonymous with, oh, you're getting a Lewinsky. You get a Lewinsky. And I imagined seeing a traditional wedding invitation at the time.

B (38:59)

Yeah.

A (39:00)

Saying like, Mr. And Mrs. Jones are thrilled to announce the engagement between Jonathan Jones and Monica Lewis. And I was like. And I remember thinking, never going to happen. I think if she marries someone, it's not going to be someone of the traditional pedigree that she came from, which was private schools in Brentwood. I'm like, I just don't think. And I think she looks great. I think she's made an incredible career for herself now. But, I mean. And she, like Amanda, has told her story many different times and ways. There was an HBO documentary, there's been books, there's been movies, there's been things that she hasn't signed off on. And.

B (39:37)

But again.

A (39:40)

It'S the woman that is the easiest one to point at. It's because not only are the men doing it, but women aren't supporting you either. They're like, what are you doing, you little slut with your beret? I'm trying to ruin a cute family like the Clintons.

B (39:56)

I mean, it is kind of interesting, and it's nice that Monica and Amanda can really join in this, because her stories are really similar as far as just, you know, what they overcame, not just legally, but in the. Obviously in the media eye, and how it hasn't really. They've never really been completely vindicated in a certain sense, because there's people that probably don't know that somebody else was convicted before she was. I mean, I think that was one of the big things, is I wasn't really sure exactly who killed this girl. And that's so unfair to the victim's family and to the victim.

A (40:32)

I mean, I'm glad that this story, that she is doing this thing, because as someone who followed it, I remember that she did time sometime, but she did eventually get out, that they did get the real person. But that's like, all I. I did not realize until we started to delve into it that she was convicted and so was the boyfriend of eight days, and so was Rudy. And they all did, you know, they did. They did four years before they were able in the Court of Appeals of Italy to get it overturned for Raphael and. And Amanda Knox.

B (41:12)

Right.

A (41:12)

Rooney was still convicted because of his DNA.

B (41:15)

Yeah, because it was.

A (41:16)

But he got out after 13 years. He got out.

B (41:20)

That's crazy.

A (41:21)

And he had priors.

B (41:22)

That's insane. Well, that's what makes it so crazy, too. And that's why I talk about the victim's family, because this is a horrible crime. There were a lot of victims in this, but where do you turn? You know, you're. And then. Can you imagine? You send your daughter off and she's saying, oh, yeah, everything's great. I met this great girl from America. We're best friends. And then you start to hear this just horrible, sordid tale, and you really are only hearing, well, she confessed. She confessed. I mean, what are you supposed to think as a family member?

A (41:52)

She said in an interview recently, Amanda Knox, that she has never talked to Meredith's family. Yeah, she's never had any contact with them positively or negatively. And I was trying to get a little research on what their reaction was. But when she was finally exonerated of the murder after four years, they just said the family members of Meredith were just stoic at the court. Like, they just. I think that's so, so hard when you're obviously the parents of a victim. It's horrible. But you think, you know, you're working with the prosecution, you think they found the person and then they're like, no, we didn't. And you're, you're like, you know, kind of like the, the Karen Reed families.

B (42:38)

Right.

A (42:39)

The family of the victim.

B (42:41)

Yeah.

A (42:41)

They still didn't want to believe anything other than, no, she did it.

B (42:46)

Right.

A (42:47)

He did it, and that's that. And I'm like, I get that, but if your child is dead, don't you. Does it. Would it be some comfort to know that the person that they knew and trusted wasn't the one that killed them? Like, I would. Would rather it be a random person than like their best friend or roommate or girlfriend.

B (43:09)

Well, right. I mean, because you're. Well, you want closure and, and unfortunately, even closure is, it's not going to bring your. Never.

A (43:16)

And it goes on forever. Every time there's an appeal or probation, then you're, you're faced with the whole thing again. You can't move on.

B (43:22)

As a victim's parent, I do think at least they had closure with, with the Rudy conviction. I agree it's not enough time at all, but at least there is something to show that this guy clearly was involved. But then to. To extend it out, then they had to think, well, it wasn't just a random thing. It was actually somebody that she knew and liked and was living with. I mean, you know, it's like, talk about living with the enemy. So how that, I mean, it's just to go to those lengths to convince yourself that your story, and I'm talking from the prosecution and police, is correct, that I can't be wrong, and if I'm wrong, well, then I'm not really wrong. And to just somehow make everything sort of fit into your box.

A (44:09)

I'm guessing anybody that's sending their kid off to do a semester at sea or, you know, a year in a different country through the school, if they hadn't remembered the story and they're currently watching it, it's going to make, you know, they're going to make sure that they have every embassy number, not only in their phone, but, like, printed out on a piece of paper on their person, maybe some other personal contact that's. That they can connect with a family member or somebody like, I would be so right. Freaked out that because, you know, we put our kids in situations now where they're living with someone that they've never met in tiny corners in a college that we're paying $50,000 a year for. And sure, you can do some prior research and that's always fun, but it's still. There's many people that just. This is your roommate. And you don't know what their mental health is, like, what their. What their situation is. I mean, you know, with. Well, I don't want to say, but for someone who's close to me, very close. This girl we thought was a good roommate and she was fine, but she was bringing over Tinder guys to the dorm room and that were not part of even the school, right. Drink only sodas and refused to brush her teeth for a year. And this person who's close to me had to live across the. You know, in a tiny room, right? And there's no getting out of it, you know, so it's like with this whole situation. Speaking of which, then I wanted to look up what was it like to be in Italian prison for four years. And I was like, if anything, is the food a little better? Is it like, are they serving pasta? Are they serving some pasta? Is. It's a little more gourmet. So when we read it, it was. So it was like she woke up in a. In a room with three other women. There was a bucket for dirty laundry. There was a small kitchen. There was, I think, did they say a bathroom or something? But it was, you know, no. No privacy. And it wasn't, you know, fancy or anything. It's a. And Drake was listening, reading to it. He goes, sounds like the dorm room of LSU your daughter just started at, which is, you know, an older building and everything. And of course, you can make it cute and all that, but like, no. And then she would spend her days for four years. I'm like, how did she spend her days? And she did make the most of it. It sounds like she wrote a lot, did a lot of diaries, which I'm sure all led to some profitable stuff in telling her story. But also she would translate the Harry Potter books. And so now I believe she's probably quite fluent in Italy in Italian.

B (46:53)

Well, if you're going to be there for four years and then you. You really know that you misunderstood everything. I mean, you were. Would be able to at least learn another language.

A (47:00)

And I mean, I always thought like, you're the Rafaela guy. You're Was there just like, how the. Did I get. I just met you eight years ago. Eight days. Eight days ago. I just met you eight days ago.

B (47:12)

And now.

A (47:12)

And in what I read is they obviously the relationship didn't last. It wasn't a love that was Going to last throughout four years. But they did keep in touch. There is a friendship, there was writing going back and forth. They did meet up on a couple occasions when they both were exonerated over the years.

B (47:34)

Well, I think he also. I think the whole way it all started is, of course, they separated them. I think they wanted him to come back. And then she said, let me come back, too, and come back to the interrogation room. This is the beginning. Because, oh, they want to talk to me. Well, let me. I'm not going to let you go alone. Which probably was one of the worst mistakes she ever made. She should have just stayed back. Then they bring in what I call kind of like a mole while he's being interrogated, and they're getting him to say, you know, that, you know, Amanda never came back to your place. She was there the whole time. So they. He eventually says, yeah, maybe she wasn't with me. So now they've got him saying that she was back at the apartment doing what she was doing. So.

A (48:13)

Because they were smoking weed then, right? Yeah.

B (48:15)

Oh, yeah. The whole pot thing, like, somehow. But that's the problem. You lie about one thing, because she said she lied about the pot because she didn't want to get her roommates in trouble. You lie about the pot, then you're going to lie about everything. Right. And it's pot. But then they're thinking, he doesn't even know where she was. So her whole story about watching the Amelie movie and everything like that is all. So they get him.

A (48:36)

They said they were watching a movie.

B (48:37)

A movie, but they get him to say, oh, you know, she wasn't with me. What. What were. He's going to say that. So now she's like, well, why would he say this? And then they bring in. I call it like a little mole, where they're kind of saying, so, you know, she doesn't know who he is. She goes, so what do you. What do you do to relax? Well, I do yoga. This is another weird part in the movie. Okay, where then. Oh, show me the yoga. So now all of a sudden, she's doing her yoga poses in a police station.

A (49:03)

And that's. That is also a video that went viral that looked like she was doing. Standing on her head and doing cartwheels and stuff.

B (49:11)

Instead of grieving.

A (49:12)

Yeah, instead of grieving in a joyful, you know, what kind of monster.

B (49:17)

But it's also kind of that. It's also kind of sexual like that Some of the moves she's making can be kind of seen as sexual and she's doing splits on the floor. I think that was the narrative that they were trying to build. Then they could. I didn't know that video went viral. Then they can take that video viral. Then she's just being found guilty in the media, which is why the whole. Why her teaming up with Mona Lewinsky is kind of like, this is how things can go so very, very wrong when somebody has a narrative and doesn't even think about the truth anymore.

A (49:48)

There was this. This woman who I believe is still in prison. She's one of those shows that keeps coming back and following. And she had left her two little kids sleeping on the couch and said that someone came in and brutally stabbed them. And she did get convicted for their. Their murder. She always claimed her innocence. And when it was one of their birthdays or they had birthdays very close together, she went to their grave before she was convicted and was laughing and spraying silly spray on the graves. And a reporter had followed her, filmed that. And they were like, what a sick bitch.

B (50:25)

Right?

A (50:25)

And she was like, no, they loved silly spray.

B (50:28)

Right. Or whatever.

A (50:29)

Still Silly string.

B (50:30)

Yeah.

A (50:31)

And I want to. Celebrating their birthdays. I just was trying to think of a happier thing. And it's just always so, you know, when you hear one thing or see one thing and assume it, and then when you hear, like, the actual backstory behind it, you're like, oh, yeah. If you isolated that one little moment, you didn't see her crying in the car before. You didn't see her shaking it off. You didn't see her being like, God, I remember that birthday three years ago. You know, like, you don't. It's just so. Which is what was so fascinating about the media portrayal.

B (51:05)

Right.

A (51:05)

Of Amanda Knox and what was then conveyed over here as well. There was. There's still people that think that she did have something to do with it, and there's still people that. That think the whole thing's a hoax and it never happened. Like, you know, whatever. There's always going to be somebody that. That says weird.

B (51:24)

I mean, unfortunately, this was a real person. It's a real person. It's a true story. It went terribly wrong on so many levels. And. Yeah, but it.

A (51:36)

So then she does get convicted of saying that it was the Patrick guy, her boss, of defamation, which holds a maximum of three years in prison for defaming someone in Italy and said she'd already done four years. They said, okay, don't have to do any time. But she actually has that conviction of defamation in Italy. And. And then, you know, came. Came home and I guess then has, like, lived her life and written her books and. Right. All of that. But God, I mean, just.

B (52:14)

I can't imagine being the mother of a child that. You know, and not being here or being here and really feeling completely powerless. I think that is the hardest thing. The damage was kind of done. I think the parents did everything they possibly could when the time happened.

A (52:31)

But the damage was hearing that she got 26 years. And you could have an attorney say, we're going to appeal and we're going to appeal, but, I mean, it was not looking good. I mean, she had to spend those four years doing what could keep her mind sane of that I may never get out. And she said every day was just, you know, that she woke up was just eternal sadness. I mean, it was just so hard to have any hope. Like how. I mean, the fact that she's now. I mean, what a wonderful thing that she's got. Grace Van Patten, who is a great casting match for her.

B (53:06)

I think so.

A (53:07)

And, you know, a whole series, and she's still beautiful. She just had. She was very, very attractive. She had a very classic, beautiful look that required very little makeup, perfect features, blue eyes, brown hair, you know, great nose, great profile, like, you know, very attractive and.

B (53:26)

But very natural.

A (53:28)

That's what I'm saying.

B (53:29)

That's the other thing. So weird. It wasn't like she presented as what they say, whatever, or Foxy Noxy or whatever. She didn't present that way at all. That's why it's really kind of frightening.

A (53:40)

No, I mean, she was just. She was a good student. Right. That was just like, oh, this is fun and I'm gonna take advantage of all of it. And, you know, did really connect with someone after sleeping with several others and who cares? But she was connecting with him. And I mean, like, just like, what a nightmare. We talk about, like, being blamed for something. I imagine the guilt that you would. Even though. That you're in this situation, I. I would still feel guilty that, like, this boyfriend is also in this horrible thing with me.

B (54:17)

Right.

A (54:17)

Just because.

B (54:18)

And Patrick. I mean, everybody. It just. It just. It ballooned. And it's really that kind of idea when you find yourself just in a situation where you're like, how did I get here? And it just balloons and you don't really. And you're desperately trying to backtrack and correct and you still believe that you can, and then you can't. Yeah, it's. It's pretty. Pretty deafening, really.

A (54:38)

Yes. And so there's. I mean, there's so much more on it, you know, to explore as far as, like, where she is now and what her relationships are with these other people. So obviously, we can't cover it all here, but, yeah, it was great talking to you, Shannon, and tell everybody where they can follow and find you.

B (54:56)

Thanks. I'm on Instagram, and it's just under my name. And also our law firm with my husband is michaelgoldstein.net so, yes, you can.

A (55:05)

Reach out to them for any kind of legal advice or if you need counsel. And, of course, I'm@heathermcdall.net for everything. More Patreon dates, all of it. Going to Vegas. You're gonna come, right? You're my show. Yes, you are.

B (55:20)

Oh, yes, I am.

A (55:21)

Okay.

B (55:22)

Got it from the calendar.

A (55:22)

Yeah. November 14th during Bravo Concert. It'll be a lot lighter fare, but, you know, there'll be some real estate crimes. Not real estate. There'll be some real housewives crimes that I'm sure we will cover in the show, which does involve a lot of lying and things like that and false confessions. So it all comes back to housewives as well as juicy crimes. Thank you.

B (55:45)

Thanks, Heather.