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Juicy Crimes with Heather McDonald
Dateline's Andrea Canning On Crimes of Passion and Hitman-for-Hire Plots
01:06:25
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- [00:00]
Podcast Host - Advertiser
Did you know that there's an online cannabis company that ships federally legal THC right to your door and they found a way to combine THC with carefully selected functional ingredients to create gummies, baked goods and flour for whatever type of buzz you'd want. I'm talking about mood.com they have an incredible line of cannabis gummies and you can get 20% off your first order@mood.com with promo code Juicy Crimes. So forget the one size fits all supplements that only get you high. Mood's functional gummies are optimized to kick in in as little as 15 minutes and take you to a mood that you're looking for. My favorite is Sleepy Time Advanced Gummies because this is for a mind soothing calm each night.
- [00:48]
Heather
It is one of their best sellers
- [00:49]
Podcast Host - Advertiser
and I can see why. I just have some times when my mind just doesn't turn off or I'm stressed about something the next day. But most importantly I need a good night's slee sleep and I have found
- [00:59]
Heather
this has really worked perfectly.
- [01:02]
Podcast Host - Advertiser
Best of all, not only is every Mood product backed by a hundred dollar day satisfaction guarantee, but as I mentioned, listeners get 20% off their first order with code juicy crimes. So head over to mood.com find the functional gummy that matches exactly what you're looking for and let Mood help you discover your perfect mood. And don't forget to use promo Code Juicy Crimes when you check out to save 20% off your try it today@mood.com
- [01:33]
Advertiser - Liberty Mutual
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- [01:51]
Andrea Canning
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- [02:12]
Heather
Hello and welcome to Juicy Crimes. You guys are going to be so excited. I have the queen of crime, Dateline mother of six gorgeous Andrea Canning. Thank you. I'm so excited to have you on Juicy Crimes. Thank you for coming on.
- [02:28]
Andrea Canning
I'm excited to be here. Thanks for having me on.
- [02:31]
Heather
Well I mean I'm obsessed obviously with with crimes and I've always loved you on Dateline. You've done so many other things.
- [02:39]
Andrea Canning
Thank you.
- [02:40]
Heather
But I mean the thing that I also, I. Years ago, I had your. Your colleagues, Keith Morrison and Josh Mankiewicz. And I did ask them, though. I'm just going to ask you, like, when you're interviewing these people, sometimes the possible perpetrator, sometimes the victims, what has been the most interesting situation where you're interviewing this person? You know, maybe they're on trial, but in your opinion, you know, they're guilty. And you have to kind of play along and be like, oh, and when you first got married, you guys were really. You were the town prom king and queen, and, you know that he, like, murdered her. How do you do that?
- [03:30]
Andrea Canning
Yeah, I mean. Cause it's. It's always sort of that fine line, right? Because you want to start the show, we don't go from, you know, zero to five minutes where we're telling you, hey, he did it. Right? So you have to sort of build that love story. And how did these people meet and why did they fall in love? And, you know, I say to people all the time, you don't run into the arms of a killer, right?
- [03:52]
Heather
So.
- [03:52]
Andrea Canning
So there's usually a love story there, you know, where. Where it started off, okay. And then something goes wrong. So I try to keep myself in. In that sort of frame of mind of, like, there was a time when these two people probably were in love, you know, and so you're trying to get that sort of, like, initial story of them, and then it's also questionable about, like, do you smile? You know, do you. What. What should your facial expressions be, knowing how this story ends? Because usually we know, you know, that there. You know, there's been a verdict, right? So we. When I interview this person, usually they're in prison. Very rarely do I do it, you know, before trial, where I interview an accused killer, which is also a whole other dynamic. But, yeah, it's like, smile, not smile. I don't want to look sympathetic, but at the same time, I'm trying to get this sort of real story of what happened before everything went wrong.
- [04:44]
Heather
And when you do somebody in prison, because I noticed, like, 20 years ago this would always kind of bum me out, is that, like, I would see that, you know, it was just super close on the guy's face. And then once I figured it out, that it's because he's in an orange jumpsuit. But then when I was interviewing Keith and Josh, they said, yeah, well, sometimes we do bring them another shirt and maybe, like, put a plant in the corner.
- [05:11]
Andrea Canning
Absolutely. Sometimes the, you know, the close up can be a giveaway Right. That Dateline is hiding something. I think Josh purposely interviewed someone who was acquitted. Close up. Anyway, that's the story for Josh. But I, you know, I remember going to do this interview with Tony Tung in Teaneck, New Jersey, who was accused of killing his ex wife, or soon to be ex wife. I can't remember if they were officially divorced. And the producer brings in the summer, this giant, like, Himalayan scratchy sweater that seriously looks like something you'd buy, I don't know, like Peru or something. Like, I'm making up a country here. But, like, it was so thick and heavy and scratchy. And the associate producer who was there, she was like, do you want me to go run to Macy's and grab, like a polo or something? He's like, no, no, this is good. This is good. It's mine. It's my sweater. And I'm like, oh, my gosh. Like, as much as I don't feel sorry for killers, I was like, oh, he's gonna wear that in this hot, stinky jail in New Jersey. And so he wore it, and the guy was, like, sweating because the sweater was so hot.
- [06:28]
Heather
That's amazing.
- [06:29]
Andrea Canning
Then, believe it or not, the producer actually, like, took it home after that. I was like, for me, that would be in the trash. But yeah, yeah, no, he kept it.
- [06:41]
Heather
Now, how long have you been doing the. Doing Dateline?
- [06:45]
Andrea Canning
Almost 14 years.
- [06:46]
Heather
Wow, that's amazing. You have not aged a day.
- [06:49]
Andrea Canning
Oh, my gosh, you're so nice.
- [06:51]
Heather
And I don't know how you do it. Your kids are. You said from 6 to 16?
- [06:56]
Andrea Canning
Yes.
- [06:57]
Heather
So you're just in the thick of it. Do you. How do you manage everything?
- [07:02]
Andrea Canning
You know, I have a nanny who's like, you know, who comes during the day. My husband works close to home. That helps out a lot. But it's really hard. Like, you know, I'm getting a text message like, mommy, can I skip my tutor today? Like, while I'm on with you? And I'm like, I am not answering you. Like, figure it out. Like, I can't talk to you right now. You know, there's so. There's times where I'd love to say my kids always come first, which generally they do, but there's some examples where they don't. Because, you know, it's kind of a. This job is a lot of.
- [07:32]
Heather
Yeah.
- [07:32]
Andrea Canning
You know, there's a lot going on. And so I'm trying to. To be everything to everybody. And that's, you know, we just know that's not real.
- [07:40]
Heather
Well, I mean, You've done so many cases, and you do the kind of cases that really interest me, which is, you know, my favorite genre of true crime, and I've created the genre of it. I don't know that anyone else would say it is infidelity, killings one spouse for their insurance money. And it's. I'm usually attracted to a couple that is very relatable to myself, and someone, you know, steps out of the marriage or makes one wrong decision that then leads them in a life that they were never. Didn't even have a speeding ticket to looking, you know, at a lifetime of prison. You know, we just. We just had the Corey Richards case, and with her being convicted, I guess they're going to do the sentencing in
- [08:26]
Andrea Canning
a few weeks, in May.
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Heather
Yeah, I was very shocked to see that her defense. And just to remind people this is the one where she poisoned her husband. Allegedly. Well, not allegedly because she's convicted.
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Andrea Canning
Not anymore.
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Heather
Poison. Poisoned her husband with fentanyl in a Moscow Mule. He died. She wrote a book, a children's book about getting on after your. Your children's father dies. She had a lover. She thought she was going to get all this money, and she didn't, and she was convicted. But what did you think when her defense didn't put on a defense at the very end? They didn't bring up any witnesses after the prosecution? I mean, don't you think, like, she might have a real case now to say she was misrepresented and asked to be appealed?
- [09:18]
Andrea Canning
Yeah. Ineffective assistance of counsel, maybe. I mean, you know, that. We'll see. Those are always hard claims to make because also, Corey seems very involved in her defense. My guess, and I'm not in that room with them, is, you know, they probably consulted her on that. You know, they probably said, hey, here's what we're thinking. And again, I don't know that that happened, but I'm. But my guess would be that Corey was probably on board with that. I did interview a couple of jurors who said that they would have liked to have seen the defense put on some witnesses. But, you know, sometimes defense attorneys, they make that hard decision because maybe putting on, you know, other people will open, you know, go down a rabbit hole of more. Right. Things that might hurt Corey. Or maybe they just felt confident in their cross examination that, you know, that they had done enough that they. They were really going for reasonable doubt in that case. And maybe they felt like they had reached reasonable doubt the time it was their turn.
- [10:23]
Heather
Yeah, I always would because I was you know, I was, you know, obviously it seemed very stacked against her, but I was always looking at, like, well, you know, the maid that she bought it from, she was like, had a criminal past. And, you know, and yeah, there's always the case of somebody who, if their husband died, wouldn't be overly sad. I mean, you know, like, they.
- [10:52]
Andrea Canning
They.
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Heather
That always seems to be the thing of, like, why weren't you overly sad? And like. Well, we weren't. We weren't. We didn't have a great marriage. You know, he had cheated, I had cheated. Like, I was sad for my kids, but no, I wasn't overwhelmingly, you know, bummed about it. I mean, think about how many people who are in unhappy marriages that secretly wish, you know, when they hear an ambulance that it was coming for their husband. I'm sorry. I think it's true. So it's like, I always wonder why that's not played up sometimes more in, like, a defense.
- [11:23]
Andrea Canning
Yeah. And I sort of agree with you, too, because if she had already moved on to lover phase, you know, where she's with this Josh Grossman, obviously there's something is not great in that marriage if she's having an affair. Right. Which is the accusation. And her lover testified in trial, you know, that they were having this affair and they had all these text messages. I think once you've moved on to that point, you're probably not in the happiest of marriages. So I. I totally agree with you that not everyone has to be bawling their eyes out because they had the greatest love story of all time. Um, you know, so that. That's a good point that you make. And. And it's like that for. Look, my dad had a girlfriend that I didn't love. And, you know, and. And she. She died. And I was really sad for her kids, but, like, I wasn't bawling my eyes out, you know, because I didn't totally love this woman.
- [12:17]
Heather
Yeah.
- [12:18]
Andrea Canning
But I felt bad, you know, I really felt bad for him and for her. But you're gonna have, like, different sort of reactions to things based on how you feel about someone.
- [12:26]
Heather
Yeah. One thing that I don't think that you guys covered in your. In the Dateline, I haven't really seen it is. And maybe you can't or you don't know about. This is a story that Corey's mother also had a. Either second husband or a serious boyfriend that died of poisoning.
- [12:44]
Andrea Canning
Really? Okay, I'm. I'm not aware of that. Yeah. I. I can't.
- [12:49]
Heather
Yes. That. That Is some. Something new to me. They're, they're just. That might be in the Reddit world, but I've seen it in more places than one. And it just might be kind of interesting for the sluice to look into, because the mother was, you know, obviously very supportive of her daughter, which is,
- [13:07]
Andrea Canning
you know, still is very supportive of Corey. Yeah, they, she has been supportive of her throughout this entire thing and is. Yeah, like her number one supporter for sure.
- [13:19]
Heather
Right. Do you ever think that sometimes there is an overzealous, like, male detective to go after the wife who is like the vixen who cheated, who has the scarlet letter, whose husband is now dead?
- [13:38]
Andrea Canning
I mean, look, that's like the number one accusation, right, from defendants is tunnel vision. You know, the defense attorneys t. They had tunnel vision.
- [13:46]
Heather
Yeah.
- [13:47]
Andrea Canning
And they, you know, they, they, they look at the spouse and they, they don't look anywhere else. I mean, that's kind of a defense as old as time. Right. Sloppy investigation, tunnel vision. You know, all the evidence points to the spouse. I mean, that, that's like 90% of dating say.
- [14:09]
Heather
Well, I want to talk to you about this crazy case, which I have not covered yet, and I've only seen bits and pieces, so I'm glad that you're really covering it because it's insane. And it's about a husband who attempted to hire someone to kill his wife not once, but twice. Can you kind of walk us through it?
- [14:30]
Andrea Canning
Yeah. So this is the story that takes place in Rockland County, New York, which is just north of New York City. Ira Bernstein is a podiatrist, and he falls in love at Penn State with Susan. And Susan and Ira get married, they have a few kids, they start spending a lot of money. You know, they live in this beautiful house. And he's got multiple practices at this point. He's got some real estate. And also, Ira happens to be the foot doctor for the Rockland County Sheriff's Department. So he's, you know, very intimately involved with all the officers in town with their feet, you know, doing surgery and whatnot. And so he has a girlfriend, this woman. She is very eclectic. Her name is Kelly, and she is a former mortician, aspiring model, and shoe orthotic saleswoman.
- [15:32]
Podcast Host - Advertiser
Did you know that there's an online cannabis company that ships federally legal THC right to your door? And they found a way to combine THC with carefully selected functional ingredients to create gummies, baked goods, and flour for whatever type of buzz you'd want. I'm talking about mood dot com. They have an incredible, incredible line of cannabis gummies. And you can get 20 off your first order@mood.com with promo code Juicy Crimes. So forget the one size fits all supplements that only get you high. Mood's functional gummies are optimized to kick in in as little as 15 minutes and take you to a mood that you're looking for. My favorite is Sleepy Time Advanced Gummies because this is for a mind soothing calm each night.
- [16:20]
Heather
It is one of their best sellers
- [16:21]
Podcast Host - Advertiser
and I can see why. I just have some times when my mind just doesn't turn off or I'm stressed about something the next day. But most importantly, I need a good night's sleep.
- [16:30]
Heather
And I have found this has really worked perfectly.
- [16:33]
Podcast Host - Advertiser
Best of all, not only is every Mood product backed by a $100 day satisfaction guarantee, but as I mentioned, listeners get 20% off their first order with code Juicy Crimes. So head over to mood.com, find the functional gummy that matches exactly what you're looking for and let Mood help you disc discover your perfect mood. And don't forget to use promo code Juicy Crimes when you check out to save 20% off your first order. Try it today@mood.com
- [17:07]
Advertiser - Liberty Mutual
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- [17:17]
Andrea Canning
Hey everyone, check out this guy and his bird. What is this your first date?
- [17:20]
Advertiser - Liberty Mutual
Oh, no. We help people customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual together. We're married. Me to a human, him to a bird.
- [17:27]
Podcast Host - Advertiser
Yeah, the bird looks out of your league.
- [17:29]
Advertiser - Liberty Mutual
Anyways, only pay for what you need@libertymutual.com Liberty.
- [17:32]
Heather
Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Okay, so a couple questions.
- [17:38]
Andrea Canning
It's like walking to a bar.
- [17:39]
Heather
First of all, how old is she in comparison to his wife? Current wife that he's with. So he's clearly cheating on the wife.
- [17:46]
Podcast Host - Advertiser
Right?
- [17:46]
Heather
They didn't have like an open thing.
- [17:48]
Andrea Canning
They. Well, there was some talk of that it was an open marriage, you know, that that's between them. But yes, there was definitely like he. That was Ira's claim that they had an open marriage. And it's possible, you know, I'm not exactly sure because we've never interviewed Susan. So Kelly come. Kelly had been to Ira. His. Kelly, his girlfriend had been to Ira as a patient for her feet. And then later she started selling these shoe orthotics and so she comes to Ira for help with this business or whatever and they start this relationship. He Says she's hot. You know, they, they, they start and, and then he says that he was going to give a, give it another go with Susan. He, I guess they were separated for a bit in the story and wants to go back to Susan because divorce is messy and blah, blah, blah. So fast forward, Kelly goes to this car salesman named Markenzi, BMW car salesman who she knew and says like, hey, can you take care of something for me? I need someone dead. So she had sort of misinterpreted a conversation she had had with him, like earlier when she was talking about her ex husband and he gave her some advice and she sort of took that as like, he knows assassins. So she comes to him and she's like, can you find, can you help me find someone? I need this woman killed this suburban mom. So he's like, yeah, I think I could help you with that. And so what does he do? He calls his friend who's a police, police officer, and he says, he says, I have a woman who wants to have this other woman killed. And the police officer's like, okay, you need to call like detectives. I'm going to tell you how to reach them. So they, they set up this big sting operation that ends up being multiple sting operations. Cameras in Marenzi's car, the so called, you know, hitman, or who knows a hitman. And so he has Kelly come in. They really have to get money to exchange hands, you know, for a proper, like, arrest and all of that, right? You have to, you can't just talk about it. You have to actually say, I want this. Here's the money. He takes the money. So he's trying to lure Ira the podiatrist into this sting. So he's like, I need to see Ira. So this takes a little detour where they pause on the hit on Susan and they say, actually first we want to beat up a couple of insurance investigators because Ira was accused of over billing.
- [20:30]
Heather
Oh my God.
- [20:31]
Andrea Canning
And these insurance guys were like, kind of, you know, hot on his trail. And so the police come up with this plan. Let's beat up, like, look like we're beating up Hollywood A script. We're beating up these insurance investigators. So they do make. They're like throwing punches. They're like, you know, there's like makeup, whatever. And so Markenzie gets Ira into the car by saying he needs to see the photos. I can't give these to you. Ira needs to see them. So Ira gets in the car, he shows him the photos, and then Ira says at One point, like, right out of a movie, he looks into the backseat and he sees, like, a, like something in the back, like a camera or hole or something. And he goes, is that a camera? And Ira's face is like, you know, like, right up in the. And the police are watching. And Markenzi goes, oh, no, no, that's just a game console, like, for my kids. And I was like, oh, okay, okay. Like, all good, you know? Totally.
- [21:30]
Heather
So wait, I have a couple questions.
- [21:31]
Andrea Canning
Yeah.
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Heather
I have always said when, you know, and I've interviewed cops, too, and when I'd watch, like, TV shows about cops, I was always like, well, if I could be the decoy hooker, that would be kind of fun. If I had to be a cop, I'd want to be the one that's, like, under. Because I am an actor. I really, you know, I was like, if I can't be an actor, I'd like to be, like, a cop who's like, you know, And I always think that's. The undercover thing has always really been so intriguing to me when someone is an officer or undercover for the mob or whatever.
- [22:05]
Andrea Canning
Yeah.
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Heather
And I've interviewed people that really have to have, like, a separate apartment, a whole separate life for, you know, like, a year on end.
- [22:13]
Andrea Canning
Scary. And it's.
- [22:14]
Heather
It's scary and it's crazy. But I'm like, you do realize that, like, you're an actor, and the guy's like, oh, I never thought of it like that. I'm like, yeah, you're full on acting. And. Which is really kind of amazing in choosing that career, that it could also lead to something so elaborate as that. And I also think, don't you think they kind of have fun with it? Like, for a cop, that's a more exciting or detective, a little more exciting thing than, like, you know.
- [22:42]
Andrea Canning
Yeah. Keeps your heart pounding, right? I, I, I went undercover for Dateline as a. I was actually pregnant for real. But we were doing an investigation on adoption scams, and I met with this, like, baby broker type person. You know, she ran an adoption agency. But it was like, there were big issues with the adoption agency. Obviously, we're doing an investigation. And so I was trying to sell my baby, basically. You know, I'm. I'm saying everything that's wrong. I'm like, what if. What if I was on drugs? Do I need to put that in the form? No, no, no, no. We can leave that off. I want. What if I want this? What if I want a new car? Like, all the things that are breaking the Laws of adoption.
- [23:22]
Heather
And wow.
- [23:24]
Andrea Canning
She was like, this woman was accused of, you know, leading on different parents, prospective parents for the same child. Right. And then, you know, money, money is exchanging hands. And then at the end you're like, sorry, they chose someone else and you've been lying the whole time. So anyway, we. I re. I was at a Starbucks with her and I'm like, I'm with Dateline, you know, and she's like, and. But her instincts were so wrong. She knew her instincts were telling her something was up because she thought I was running away from an abusive husband.
- [23:58]
Heather
Oh.
- [23:58]
Andrea Canning
Not that I was an investigative journalist. So she, her spidey sense was going off, but like telling her the wrong thing.
- [24:07]
Heather
That's so interesting.
- [24:08]
Andrea Canning
She picked it up, you know, and I was dressed in like head to toe Walmart. You know, I had no makeup on, hair in a ponytail. I probably had a baseball cap on or something. I don't remember. Like, still, she was getting the vibe of like, you know, that I, you know, wasn't some down and out person. I was like, actually running from. Like, abuse was her, was her thought process. So that was like a really. I, I mean, I remember waiting for the call in the hotel room to see if she would meet us and I was like, I felt, I, I swear I felt sick that day. I'm like, I don't know if I can do this, you know.
- [24:44]
Heather
So was that. Was that way more difficult and scarier than how you do your career now and just interviewing people?
- [24:52]
Andrea Canning
Heck, yes. Absolutely. Because it's like you're stepping out of your comfort zone. You're like pretending to be something you're not.
- [24:59]
Heather
Yeah.
- [25:00]
Andrea Canning
I mean, I was pregnant, but I certainly was not selling my baby.
- [25:05]
Heather
I mean, even a few times I've done like a hidden camera thing. Like, even though it's comedic and I have to like walk up to a, you know, a person on the street with like weird glasses or a hidden camera and like, say something strange or. I didn't like, I actually didn't. Like, actually wasn't my forte of comedy. It made me feel uncomfortable. Like being dishonest like that and tricking someone into thinking I'm like a weirdo. I don't know.
- [25:31]
Andrea Canning
Yeah, it's hard.
- [25:32]
Heather
It is.
- [25:33]
Andrea Canning
Yeah. I guess there's something about like the. If you're not used to being deceptive. Right. It's going against the grain that now you're like. Right. You know, lying to somebody.
- [25:44]
Heather
Okay, well, let's get back to the story. Sort of get off track. So He. The detectives get away with saying, oh, no, that's just a game council. That's not a hidden camera. And that's after they've shown him photos and videos of that. We've done the first task, which is beating up these insurance detectives that are investigators that are after your shady podiatrist business.
- [26:07]
Andrea Canning
Yes. So he's happy with the photos. He trusts Markenzi at this point. And so it goes forward. And then, you know, eventually Kelly gives the answer.
- [26:21]
Heather
The.
- [26:21]
Andrea Canning
You know, they final answer in money, yes, we want her dead. And so they get. They get Kelly, and then they get Ira. And then at one point, Ira's defense and Kelly's defense was something about that they tried to back out, but Markenzi said it was too late and this one wasn't on camera. And Mark Kenzie said that if they backed out that these special ops were going to feed them to the alligators. And so they couldn't back out at that point. So that was their. That was what they said. I always said the reason they didn't ultimately back out. And they even talked about how it was going to be done. Um, so they. They said that they wanted Susan to be run over. Um, and actually, that idea came from Kelly because Kelly, in. Earlier in her life had actually run, like, hit someone in her car and killed someone by accident.
- [27:26]
Heather
That even makes it worse.
- [27:27]
Andrea Canning
And, like. But, like, nothing happened. You know what I mean? Like, she got away with it. Meaning. Meaning, like, she wasn't charged. You know what I'm saying? Like, so she.
- [27:34]
Heather
Oh, so she thought that was a good.
- [27:35]
Andrea Canning
They thought. The police thought maybe that's where that idea came from, that Kelly. It was. You know, she just walked away from that experience. So could be. Could be just, like, could someone hit Susan?
- [27:50]
Heather
Yeah.
- [27:50]
Andrea Canning
And then, anyway, obviously it did not get to that point. Right. Because they were arrested and. And then Kelly saw Mark Kenzie at the jail. I believe when they took her to the jail, he was there. And she's kind of like. It was like she saw a ghost. You know, there's like, oh, yeah.
- [28:11]
Heather
Anyway, how old is the Kelly woman? Is she significantly younger or not?
- [28:15]
Andrea Canning
She was in her 30s, I believe, at the time.
- [28:19]
Heather
And how old was the podiatrist guy?
- [28:21]
Andrea Canning
He was, like, third. Like, 30s or 40, early 40s. I honestly, I can't remember it. It was like, nine years ago.
- [28:29]
Heather
Okay.
- [28:30]
Andrea Canning
Yeah, I can't remember, but, like, not. Not super old or anything.
- [28:33]
Heather
Okay.
- [28:34]
Andrea Canning
30s, late 30s or early 40s, maybe.
- [28:37]
Heather
So how does Susan react when that's presented to her. She's still married to him at this point, right? Yeah.
- [28:46]
Andrea Canning
Their divorce really dragged. Yeah. So Susan is like. They. They tell Susan. Actually, they tell her, oh, gosh, you know what? Now I can't remember if they told her during the stings or like when he was arrested. I actually forgot. I'm sorry. Heather. Yeah, she. I mean, obviously she was shocked. You know, she's like, whoa. I mean. And you know, her life has been now, life of looking over her shoulder and she says it's a life of fear. And, you know, really just around every corner, like, is someone going to kill me? She's, you know, she's so lucky that they went to Markenzie, you know, who did the right thing. Because imagine if they did find somebody.
- [29:35]
Heather
Yeah.
- [29:36]
Andrea Canning
Have a problem killing someone. Right.
- [29:39]
Podcast Host - Advertiser
Right.
- [29:39]
Heather
I mean, I always think it's interesting too, that then because it didn't go through or because the murder wasn't successful, why someone gets such a lesser sentence for attempted murder than when you actually succeeded at murder. I don't even. I don't think it should matter.
- [30:00]
Andrea Canning
I know. I always wonder that too. It always bothers me. Because your intention was for that person to be dead.
- [30:09]
Heather
Right.
- [30:09]
Andrea Canning
You're just lucky that it didn't work out.
- [30:12]
Heather
Right.
- [30:12]
Andrea Canning
You know, and I guess the. The defendant is lucky too, because they get this light sentence. Well, not. Not really lucky because they didn't carry out what they planned. But at least, you know, you get a second chance. Right? I mean, you got four years. So, you know, that's a. That's a moment to say, like, hey, I can do something better with my life, you know, and by the way, like, I remember describing it the first time we did this as like his and hers prisons. Right. Because they. Both these lovers went off to prison. Um, and. But Kelly, when they were initially arrested and got. And got out on bail, she was like, this is my ride or die. I love Ira till the end. We're going to be together forever. And I'm thinking to myself, like, really? Like, you really think this is going to work out? And also, he bailed out of jail immediately. Like, within. I want to say it was like, I don't know, within days, like a few days, he left. Like, she was in there for four months,
- [31:13]
Heather
like.
- [31:14]
Andrea Canning
Cause she couldn't afford the bail.
- [31:16]
Heather
So he didn't even pay for her money.
- [31:17]
Andrea Canning
No.
- [31:18]
Heather
Yeah.
- [31:18]
Andrea Canning
He was distancing himself, and she's stuck in there. And then he says, oh, she was the mastermind behind the whole thing.
- [31:25]
Heather
Right. I mean, that's what you always have to do when it's a triangle thing and when it's always. Whenever it's the Hired. The, you know, hired someone to kill the lover of the wife of my spouse, whether it's a woman doing it or not. It's always. I did not know that my person that I had on the side was so obsessed with me and thought that my spouse was so horrible or abusive. I never told them that they did all this behind my back as, like, a gift. And I just didn't know that that always has to be. They always turn on each other for that reason, because that's the only way they can get out of it there.
- [32:03]
Andrea Canning
And there was a validation of sorts of. For Kelly because of part two of all of this. And we can get into that.
- [32:11]
Heather
Let's get into that.
- [32:11]
Andrea Canning
So they end up. Whatever you want, Heather.
- [32:13]
Heather
Yeah. So they end up getting each sentenced, right?
- [32:16]
Andrea Canning
They get. They both get, like, four years, and they both get out. Kelly, you know, doesn't. There's no contact with Ira that we know of. She goes about her life and trying to get, you know, trying to get her life back. Ira starts with. Starts in with this landscaping business. So there's a man who has this landscaping business. Ira knew him because this man used to or, you know, still does the property where, like, Susan and Ira lived. So he knows this landscaper. He gets in contact with a landscaper, and they go into business together. And so Ira ends up seeing somehow, according to the landscaper, convincing the landscaper to let him in on the business. And. And I. And I said to the detective, I was like, did. Did he not watch Dateline? Like, did he not know about this story with Kelly and Susan? And he's like, no, no, he did. But Ira told him it was all Kelly. So he trusted him, I guess, enough. All right. So they go into business together. And then over some wine and cheese, according to the landscaper, Ira starts asking him if he knows anyone who can kill Susan. So here we are again. Here we are now.
- [33:37]
Heather
Why does he still want to kill her at this point? What would he gain from her dying now four years later?
- [33:44]
Andrea Canning
That is a good question. My guess is it. I mean, Ira has denied it. So, you know, again, this is sort of like. This is like, through the prosecution's eyes, right? Angry at her, maybe. There's still money issues, unresolved money issues. I know Susan is still trying to get money from him that I believe they say is hidden. You know, that he has money, you know, people, offshore accounts, all that Kind of thing like. Yeah, so probably some anger, some, you know, money issues. They've got three children that Ira, you know, claimed to me he loved and he'd learned his lesson and you know, he just wants to be a better man for his children.
- [34:28]
Heather
Right.
- [34:29]
Andrea Canning
Well, yeah, we saw how that turned out.
- [34:32]
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- [35:03]
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Andrea Canning
I wanted to give something to the fans that they didn't expect. The only thing left is to close the book.
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- [35:33]
Andrea Canning
So this landscaper gets very upset about something else. He feels that Ira has stolen money from him that he has taken like half of like his business or whatever and he's really mad. So he uses this request to have Susan killed against Ira. So he goes on Amazon, he orders like three tape recorders and he's like, I'm gonna record this guy. But this is different from Markenzi, the first guy, because Markenzi was working with the police. This landscaper guy is now doing it to like hopefully get his business back and just say so. He sets up a meeting with Ira and his sister who's an attorney.
- [36:22]
Heather
And he's basically Ira's sister.
- [36:23]
Andrea Canning
Ira's sister is an attorney? Yes. So he's basically saying, if you give me my business back, I will not give these recordings to the police. So these are recordings of Ira talking about Susan.
- [36:38]
Heather
Oh.
- [36:39]
Andrea Canning
And wanting her killed. So, and, and some of the recordings were like, you know, it's. Some of them are, you know, sometimes those recordings are a little vague about what the person's talking about. And some of them, the audio wasn't that great. And so it wasn't, it wasn't like perfect. Right. It wasn't like the smoking gun, per se. But he tries to use the recordings against Ira. He ends up going to the landscaper, who knows. Susan ends up going the landscaper goes to Susan and says, this is happening. Susan goes to the district attorney's office and says, I think Ira's trying to have me killed again.
- [37:21]
Heather
Amazing.
- [37:21]
Andrea Canning
So they couldn't do another sting because Ira, you know that that wasn't going to work again.
- [37:26]
Heather
Right.
- [37:28]
Andrea Canning
But they had the recordings. And so Ira ended up taking a deal for something. Not. It wasn't like the. It wasn't as strong as the first time around, you know, solicitation to commit murder or whatever. That it was something along the lines of tampering with evidence. I can't remember exactly what it was, but it was like a lower, like a lower level crime that they were able to get him on. So he really got a light sentence. I mean, he could be out. I think this time it could be as short as a year and a half. I think it was like a year and a half to three years.
- [38:03]
Heather
I mean, that's crazy.
- [38:04]
Andrea Canning
Yeah. I mean, the judge, like really admonished him in court and he was like, this is mind boggling. Like, I'm confused. Like, why would you do this? And, you know, Susan. Susan's in court and she's just saying how her life has been destroyed. And Ira is once again blaming everybody else. He blamed the landscaper in his statement in court, said he never wanted to have Susan killed. You know, he's just. He's always. He's just always like everybody else but me.
- [38:38]
Heather
Really horrible luck, right?
- [38:40]
Podcast Host - Advertiser
Yeah.
- [38:40]
Andrea Canning
No, and it's just like, come on.
- [38:42]
Heather
And then was he doing landscaping because he could no longer be a podiatrist because he had a felony or he has a felony.
- [38:48]
Andrea Canning
Yeah. So he, he is. He can't be a doctor. And, you know, there's a lot of other things he can't do, you know, and the judge even said to him, he goes, you were on the verge of becoming a serial, like, felony offender. They have a. They have like some fancy name for it. But like, if you do it one more time, you could go. If you do something a felony one more time, you could go to prison for the rest of your life as a ser. Like for serial felonies. It's like kind of like a third strike law.
- [39:15]
Heather
But they.
- [39:15]
Andrea Canning
That. So there was Ira, you know, like, like, you know, tiniest violin. And I actually saw him on his way. I was waiting for him on his way into court and the courthouse, and I said, hey, Ira, do you want to say anything? You know, and he said something like, why would I. Why would I talk to Dateline when you screwed me over? The first time. And, like, I felt like saying, you know, I tried to keep it professional, but I was like, no, you screwed yourself over, buddy. Like, no, like, we just. We did an interview with you, right? And, you know, had told people the facts and gave your. You had your side. You know, he fully had his side. So. Yeah.
- [40:01]
Heather
Have you ever had a case and you've had so many suspects putting you on the spot with no prep? But, like, have you ever had a case where the person's been convicted or they do get convicted, and you're interviewing them and they're claiming their innocence, and you did feel like, you know what? I don't know, Maybe. Maybe they didn't do it?
- [40:24]
Andrea Canning
Hmm. I mean, I wish I could tell you there are a bunch of those, but there's not really. You know, at that point. I've seen so much of the evidence. Like, yeah, I know we, like Dateline does stories. You know, we do wrongful convictions, and. And we have had cases where it's like mistrial after mistrial, you know, and so I think there. I think that exists. You know, I just. I just don't really. Can't really think of one, actually, in all this time where I was like,
- [40:58]
Heather
maybe do you ever feel sorrier, more sorry for the women because they end up spending their life behind bars and they are a mother and you're a mother. Like, I always think that even with the Cory Richens, I'm always like, oh, my God, she has three sons.
- [41:15]
Andrea Canning
I do.
- [41:16]
Heather
Like, you know, are they really gonna continue to visit her every week for the next 25 years? You know, and who's gonna bring them there? And once they become teenagers, like, is that going to be something that you want to do? And. And what if they don't believe that their mother's innocent? Even though. Because I think they're being raised by his side of the family, which is usually how it always happens. They usually never give it to the perpetrators, like, sister or the. You know, the accuser, the accused sisters or whatever. That's always, like, the side of the. Of the dead parents that get the kids.
- [41:50]
Andrea Canning
Funny story, because. Well, it's not funny. Nothing's funny about it. But, yeah, there is an element that there was this woman in New Jersey, and she ends up with this guy who basically, I think they called him like a sperm donor. Like, she just wanted, Like, a dad. She just wanted a kid. And he ends up. And he has no job, kind of. You know, I don't know where he's going in life. But anyway, she got her kid. He. The kid ends up turning his life around. So he's so happy to be a dad and he really is active in this child's life and he's so excited. Well, she didn't like that because she really wanted, you know, you're the sperm donor kind of thing. But now he's like in the child's life, her dad. And this is like a, this family. Like mom was on the school board, you know, dad was a businessman of this, I believe it was Neptune, New Jersey. And so the dad ends up killing the baby daddy. And I'm not sure if they were ever, I can't even remember now if they ever got married or if they were just boyfriend and girlfriend and then broke up. But they were broken up. So the dad, her dad kills him. And she was apparently in on it because they both end up in jail and then in prison. But the child, right, is at the center of all of this. So the, the defendant, the woman, the mom, her mom, grandma takes the child. Sorry, actually, wait, I got that wrong. The mother of the, the dead, the deceased boyfriend or husband, the dad, the grandma of the dead man gets the child. So our defendant's mom, the other grandmother in this is. They're furious that, yeah, the whole reason
- [43:46]
Heather
they killed him was to have the baby to themselves.
- [43:48]
Andrea Canning
So they're furious that the paternal, you know, grandmother now has the child. Sorry, this is. I'm making. No, I understand. It should be. I hope everyone's following along. Yeah, yeah. So the, so the. What happens is the maternal grandmother,
- [44:04]
Heather
she
- [44:05]
Andrea Canning
decides maybe I should look into a hitman.
- [44:08]
Heather
My God. So to kill the, to kill the paternal grandma.
- [44:13]
Andrea Canning
Yes. So the police, this is the police accusation is that she ends up hiring this hitman tries, but they, they do a sting in the target. So grandma comes into the target with the photo of the other grandma, meets with this so called hitman, who's really a officer, gets in her car and leaves. Pull grandma over. She's arrested. So grandma on grandma. So now we have. We had the grandmother, the mom, you know, the grandmother, the grandfather, the daughter, they are all behind bars. And I'm not sure where. What the status is of any of them now. So I, she may not be behind bars anymore. She's probably out by now, I'm sure. But anyway, so the whole family ended up getting in trouble all because of this, this child that this woman wanted so badly. I mean, it was just a disaster, the whole thing.
- [45:12]
Heather
What was that? What, what was that family like? Like, were they like, like A classy family otherwise. And just got obsessed with this grandchild. Or were they. I mean, they didn't have a criminal background.
- [45:25]
Andrea Canning
No, no criminal background. I can't. That I rem. That I recall. I can't remember what the daughter did for a living, but the. I just remember very clearly the mother was on the school board, so she was like, you know, active in. In the town. And the dad was some type of a businessman. He owned his own business. I can't remember exactly what it was.
- [45:47]
Heather
That is so interesting. Like the possessiveness of. Of grandparents. Because that reminds me of the very famous case. I know when I start talking, you'll remember and I don't remember the names, but the. The girl was married to a. Like a law professor and they were living in Florida and they were married and had the two boys and both her. In the end, her brother and her mother got convicted of hiring someone to kill her husband that she was going through the divorce with because she wouldn't be able to move back to Miami with the kids. They would have to live in the same town. Because he was granted 50, 50 custody and the grandparents wanted her and the kids to be near them.
- [46:32]
Andrea Canning
Yes.
- [46:33]
Heather
And if he wasn't going to agree to that and make her life and their life easy because he wanted to be an active dad, then he just has to go.
- [46:44]
Andrea Canning
Yep. And that we Dateline just did that story and that. Remember she was. The mom was getting on the plane and she. Where was she going?
- [46:52]
Heather
To Vietnam. Vietnam.
- [46:53]
Andrea Canning
And they were like, no, because they don't extradite.
- [46:57]
Heather
So she knew her days were numbered because the son, who was also a dentist, had Adelson. Had a girlfriend who was like working with them, but was a girlfriend. And it was her like ex baby daddy or ex husband or ex boyfriend or somebody. She was the one that then put the hitman together, got the hitman to do it. And that's how they. They. That's how they could connect back to the brother because she was an employee and a girlfriend of the brothers and. And then apparently the mother, the daughter, you know, of the two. Her whole thing was she didn't know. She didn't know they did it behind her back, you know, because they wanted to protect her. And I don't know. I think at this point they would never throw her under the bus because why? Who's going to raise the kids now?
- [47:57]
Andrea Canning
Yeah.
- [47:58]
Heather
But maybe they just never had enough evidence to prove that she knew. But I mean, I would think that she new. I can't imagine two People going again. Let's do this gift for our sister. Do something nice for your sister. Kill her husband. You used to always tease her when she was 12. Now is your time to make up for it. Go get her husband killed. But let's not tell her. Let's have it be a fun surprise when she's a widow instead of a divorced woman. Like, there's no way they didn't have conversations where she was just like, I don't know if you could make it happen. Please make it happen, because he's making my life hell. And they're seeing her crying, crying, and she's the little princess of the family.
- [48:41]
Andrea Canning
That was a twisted one. I just. I never understand. I mean, mostly we talk about, you know, divorce. That's like a custody. More of a custody issue. But it's like, just get a dang divorce. Like, it'll save everyone heartache and prison time and funerals and, you know, it's just so much easier and you're probably not going to get away with it.
- [49:05]
Heather
I always just think it's so interesting, too. So you, you marry this person, you have their kids and you want to get divorced, but you tell yourself in
- [49:16]
Podcast Host - Advertiser
your mind, like, I hate this person
- [49:20]
Heather
so much and he will make my life hell or I won't get the money I need to live. And he's such an asshole. Whatever. I. How someone like that can then compartmentalize that, even though he's an awful person to you, he is someone's son, he is someone's brother, he is someone's delight at work, he is your kid's father, you know, that you could compartmentalize, like I think Corey Richards did. The kids will be fine. I'll write this book, he'll be in heaven, and I'll get another dad to play baseball with them, and we can live a more lavish life life. And, you know, they don't have to go through a divorce. And like, how someone can just tell themselves that, like, I'll get away with it and things will be better for everybody, for, you know.
- [50:16]
Andrea Canning
Yeah. I mean, I have interviewed so many children of, you know, that are the products of. Of murders and bad marriages. And it's not okay. They. They don't, you know, they're. It destroys them. You know, it is the worst thing that, you know, divorce is bad enough for kids and then add murder to it.
- [50:42]
Heather
I always think, what's really sad. And this happened with the Betty Broderick, the murder. She had four kids.
- [50:49]
Andrea Canning
Yes.
- [50:50]
Heather
And to this day, I believe the four kids are split in that two never talked to her again, never visited her, and two are going to the probation board saying, please, our mother's, you know, elderly now. She could live with us. You know, something like that. And I do think that's really sad, too, in those cases that you guys cover where the kids sometimes they're always on their dad's side, they don't believe it. You know, we. We won't stand for it. And then. But other times the kids split, and then not only do they lose the parent that died, they lose the parent that's convicted, and then they lose the one or two siblings that they had. Because you are not on your convicted dad's side. And they are.
- [51:42]
Andrea Canning
Yeah, that happens a lot. That happens a lot. And you do see a lot of cases where they choose to stick with the, you know, the accused parent, because I think they don't want to lose another parent. You know, they don't want to or they don't want to believe that.
- [51:57]
Heather
Right.
- [51:57]
Andrea Canning
Aaron is capable of something like that, you know, so, you know, and I've interviewed those kinds of kids, too. And I'm like, have you seen the evidence? Like, yes, I've seen the evidence. And I. And I'm like, oh, okay. You know, I guess we start with different lenses, you know?
- [52:16]
Podcast Host - Advertiser
Yeah.
- [52:17]
Heather
I mean, when you think of, like, O.J. simpson's kids, Justin and Sidney, I mean, in the end, they live private lives now, but they. Did they, you know, after he was set, you know, was free and everything, they did go live with him in Florida. That was their primary home and parent. They were not living with the grandparents in Orange county anymore. And so they had to just.
- [52:43]
Andrea Canning
He was acquitted.
- [52:44]
Heather
Yeah, they had to tell them. They had to believe the story. But you gotta think as they get older, maybe it's one of those things where they chose never to look into it, never to read the books, watch the movies, watch the specials.
- [52:58]
Andrea Canning
Possible.
- [52:58]
Heather
And I could see that too, where they're just like. But you always wonder if one day, you know, 26, 32 years old, will they ever just go, it's time. I, like, face what happened, Especially now that he is gone as well.
- [53:13]
Andrea Canning
Yeah, yeah. Maybe. Maybe the truth is too painful.
- [53:17]
Heather
Yeah.
- [53:18]
Andrea Canning
Situation.
- [53:20]
Heather
And so you were saying before we started about a crime that did happen in a town you knew, with a firefighter and his wife.
- [53:27]
Andrea Canning
Yeah, yeah. Ashley Schwam was murdered at the hands of her husband James. And this actually. This crime happen in my very small hometown in Canada. My grandfather started a ski resort there, and it's known for all the ski clubs and skiing. And these people were skiers. And one day, you know, Ashley, a car is found on fire by a guy going to the slopes to. He's a groomer on the ski hills. He sees a big fire. He pulls over. The car is like fully engulfed in flames. At this point, he can't save anybody. He calls the fire department, they find a very badly burned body. The tags register back to James Schwam. So they're thinking, oh, is this James? He's a firefighter, you know, he's lives in town. And turns out James is okay. So it's Ashley, his wife. And he had said that she had gone for a hike that morning at the slopes. And there was a. There was a snow, a storm the night before. The roads were really icy and, you know, just slippery and all that. And it looked like the car had slid off of the road, you know, down into the embankment. So turns out James the firefighter had staged the whole thing. That he had actually killed Ashley in their home in the middle of the night, they believe by strangling her. And then he set up this whole ruse that was actually pre planned, if you can believe it. So it wasn't even like a cover up, like, oh, I gotta cover this up, right?
- [55:11]
Heather
Or yeah, like a crime of passion where they got in a fight and he, you know, didn't mean to. Yeah.
- [55:17]
Andrea Canning
And then was like, you know, covering up this crime of passion. No, it was, it was like premeditated. He had bought the gas cans and he had, he had done all these things in advance. And it, you know, was incredible police work by the Ontario Provincial Police. And this, this so called crash, which was not a crash, happened three miles from my house where I grew up. So it was very unusual for me to do this story. The detective was. Went to my high school. The victim and I had multiple mutual friends. I had never met her, but we had all these mutual friends.
- [55:58]
Heather
Was she a mother? Did they have kids?
- [56:00]
Andrea Canning
Was. Yeah, she had two children.
- [56:02]
Heather
With him.
- [56:03]
Andrea Canning
With him. And, and he was a fire captain. So he was like. And a hero coach. He was the fire captain. Wealthy families.
- [56:13]
Heather
And what was the motivation? Did he have a girlfriend? Was she gonna divorce him?
- [56:18]
Andrea Canning
She had had an affair with her boss and he found out about it. What happened was the boss's wife called Ashley, the victim. So she was in the bahamas for her 40th birthday. Her phone rings. It's her boss's wife. And he says, she says, tell your husband James that you're having an Affair with my husband or I will. James was, like, on his way to the Bahamas. Like, when this happens. She tells him out on the beach what happened. He freaks out. They. Ashley wants to fight for her marriage. They're going to counseling. You know, they're working on it. Meanwhile, he starts sort of this emotional relationship with the boss's wife. Almost like a Shania Swap.
- [57:12]
Heather
Yes, I was just gonna say Shania Twain.
- [57:14]
Andrea Canning
Yeah. So, like. But they're not. It's not believed that they're physical, but he's interested in her, and he's talking about the future and, like, I can make this happen for us kind of thing. And Ashley has totally stopped seeing her boss. You know, she's like, I'm sorry. I. I screwed up. Her family acknowledges she screwed up. And they're like, we will never love you any less. You know, you made a mistake. And Ashley acknowledges she made a mistake. I. And some. I guess James just could not get over it. And he stages this whole elaborate plan to. To kill her. And thank God that those police detectives did such an amazing job of solving
- [58:06]
Heather
this, because the whole plan was. So he kills her, he puts her in the car. He drives the car, he, like, pushes it down an embankment or whatever, lights it on fire. Like it crashed. Thinking that the fire then would destroy evidence of how she, in fact, died of strangulation. Yes, I do remember this story now. And I remember thinking one of the first things is sometimes when the. When the wife goes missing, okay, she went for a walk. She went shopping in Cancun by herself at 7am While she's got little kids still sleeping. And it was a storm. I remember going, okay, this isn't the ideal kind of weather. And you'd really leave your kids in the morning to go on this hike. Like, you'd cha. You go, I'll go another day. I live in this area all the time. Like, I'll just go another day. Why would I go in horrible conditions?
- [59:03]
Andrea Canning
They said, yeah, she never, like, went hiking that early. It was early in the morning. It was, like, dark. It was, you know, the snowstorm. She never hiked in that area. Like, all kinds of red flags of what? And. And also she always hiked with friends. Like, just all kinds of things weren't adding up.
- [59:21]
Heather
Yeah, when these guys kill their wives, they really don't know their patterns very well. Like, things just, you know, there was that. The other one was the woman who rode her bike. She went on a bike ride on Mother's Day.
- [59:34]
Andrea Canning
Yes.
- [59:35]
Heather
And then those two daughters. I remember they were definitely on their father's side. And then they like found the bike.
- [59:42]
Andrea Canning
Morphe.
- [59:44]
Heather
I can't remember if they ever. Did they ever find her body?
- [59:49]
Andrea Canning
Yeah, because she was. They found the tranquilizer.
- [59:53]
Heather
The.
- [59:55]
Andrea Canning
Remember, wasn't it like a special animal tranquilizer in her system?
- [60:00]
Heather
Oh, so they did find the body, but the whole thing was that she. I think I remember it's just like she went for a bike ride on Mother's Day by herself and it was like, really, like. It just was such a weird, you know, it's always that kind of thing. And that's why with that one case in Cancun where the guy was the producer for Survivor and he and his wife and the two kids, they'd had some marital issues. They go to the resort and, you know, she's gone all day. And then finally he's like, I don't
- [60:35]
Podcast Host - Advertiser
know where my wife is.
- [60:36]
Heather
She left at 7am to go shopping in town in Cancun. And I remember, I was like, okay, that's where I was like, bullshit. Because you have two little kids, you're a working mom. She had restaurants. You're going to spend the time with your kids at the resort. There's no. There's not like, credible shopping in Cancun where the dollar is so great and you're going to, you know, be able to get a Prada bag for, you know, 50% of the price. It's not one of those places that I'd go, okay, maybe that makes sense in certain cities and things I could see. Why would you do and go at 7, 8, like leave first thing in the morning by yourself? I mean, so then when they found her body in like a manhole and, you know. But he did get convicted.
- [61:22]
Andrea Canning
He did.
- [61:23]
Heather
And then his defense was like, well, of course Cancun is not going to, you know, want to believe that a workman did it or anything because people then would be afraid to come to Cancun. But I also think that's always my biggest fear is like, to be convicted of a crime in another country.
- [61:40]
Andrea Canning
Oh, my gosh. Yeah, that would be truly awful. I'm actually working on an international case right now where the guy flies home without his wife because he said she wanted to go visit her parents, only she never made it. And then he claims that he flew back for like a day to meet her at the airport and she wasn't there. So he just flew home even though no one had seen her. Like, red flags.
- [62:07]
Heather
Yeah, the red.
- [62:08]
Andrea Canning
Yeah.
- [62:08]
Heather
When, when. Yeah, there was Whenever it's like, well, and then, you know, we just went home, you know, I'm kind of like without her.
- [62:16]
Andrea Canning
Even though no one had seen her, you know who, like. I'm sorry, who does that?
- [62:22]
Heather
Yeah, that's why that whole. Oh, this is the other thing I was gonna ask you. I just watched, like, the number one movie in Net on Netflix that. It's a. It's a Lifetime movie, but it's called Gaslit by My Husband.
- [62:35]
Andrea Canning
I saw that. I want to see that.
- [62:37]
Heather
It's good. And I was just wondering. It's basically a woman who's married, and it was based on a true crime story because I kind of remembered it, but I didn't remember enough of it that, you know. But still, it was well done. And I. And her husband is gaslighting her, and it's. I'll let people watch it. But I was gonna say, is it interesting when you do cover a story and then a few years later you can watch it in a movie version?
- [63:04]
Andrea Canning
I always am like, I did that. I did that story.
- [63:07]
Heather
Yeah.
- [63:08]
Andrea Canning
That's always what goes through my mind. Sometimes I won't watch them because it's like, the Karen Reid movie is on Lifetime and I haven't seen it.
- [63:18]
Heather
Oh, my God, I was so disappointed. I know there's gonna be other ones, but that one was so bad. The one that was out there was nothing to it. I was like, no, what we want to see in it is. We want to see for the Karen Reid is all the other theories that made people have reasonable doubt. No, they just showed what was in the court and stuff. It was really. And I'm like, if I was to write a movie about it, I'd be like, in order to get in there, I'd have them in the war room. And then them being like, now wait a minute. Let's focus on the dog for a second. You know, this dog. Let's focus on that. What if this happened and then we see it acted out as someone who, like, covered it? That's. I would. I like to see things acted out, you know, in a. In a movie scenario and like to see all the different. That's the way I think would be relieved. Like, almost like. You know, there was a show on Showtime called the Affair where the first half would be her point of view and the second half would be his point of view. Like, that's. I'm hoping so if someone's listening to this and you're still working on the Karen Reid series, movie, whatever, that's what we need to see because.
- [64:37]
Andrea Canning
Well, I'm sure whatever Karen is working on will have lots of different points of view. Right. Because she says she can do it. So she's. She's. I mean, that one will probably. Assuming she's got something going on. Yeah.
- [64:53]
Heather
I mean, that would be very interesting. Well, this was so great to talk to you and tell everybody I knew. You're always doing so many different things and projects and how they can follow you and all of it.
- [65:06]
Andrea Canning
Yeah. I'm on. Andrea Canning is. Andrea Canning is my Instagram. That's where I give all my updates for any. Any show, any new datelines that are coming out or my podcast, Dateline, True Crime Weekly. And then I also write Hallmark movies, so I put little updates on there as well.
- [65:24]
Heather
Yeah, your Hallmark movies.
- [65:26]
Andrea Canning
How did you.
- [65:26]
Heather
How do you find time to do that?
- [65:29]
Andrea Canning
Very difficult. Usually on planes, you know, when I. When I'm, like, coming home from, you know, shooting and just when I have that downtime and I'm like, you know what? I might as well do something productive instead of watching. Well, which I do as well. But watching the Real Housewives, which I know you really like as well.
- [65:49]
Heather
That's amazing because I'm like, I always. If I'm coming back from doing standup or whatever I like, I'll do work, going to do standup because I'm, like, preparing the standup, but on the way back, I'm like, I would never be productive. So I'm very impressed. But what a dichotomy from, like, True crime that Hallmark is. Those movies are a place where, you know nothing's bad is going to happen. It's not stressful to watch. And I think that's why they're so successful. Like, because people just want to just see, like, a peaceful, fun, little cute movie.
- [66:23]
Andrea Canning
Dateline brain. Hallmark brain.
- [66:25]
Heather
Amazing. Thank you so much. This was so fun. I really appreciate you coming on.
- [66:30]
Andrea Canning
Yes. Your knowledge of all these cases is really incredible. Thank you for having me on, Heather. It was fun.
- [66:35]
Heather
Thank you.
- [67:02]
Andrea Canning
Sometimes you just want a good story.
- [67:04]
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