Family Annihilators

Summary

Juicy Crimes with Heather McDonald

Episode: Family Annihilators

Date: December 10, 2025
Hosts: Heather McDonald & Mary Payne Gilbert

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Episode Overview

This episode of Juicy Crimes takes a deep dive into the chilling phenomenon of "family annihilators"—individuals (often men) who murder their entire immediate families. Heather is joined by fellow true crime podcaster Mary Payne Gilbert. Together, they break down infamous cases, drawing connections between them while providing sharp, often irreverent commentary. The episode’s primary focus centers on the Chris Watts case, but also weaves in discussions of Scott Peterson, the Menendez brothers, Dr. Jeffrey MacDonald, and notorious true crime personalities like Gypsy Rose Blanchard and Eileen Wuornos.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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The Chris Watts Case: Anatomy of a Family Annihilation

[02:34 – 41:48]

• Watts Family Background

  • Picture-perfect Colorado family: Chris (oil refinery worker), Shanann (MLM influencer), and two young daughters.
  • Shanann’s heavy social media presence and lifestyle rooted in MLM (Thrive) culture.
  • Heather: “It was all this, like, vitamin supplement, patches for the patches and all this stuff...part of it is you’ve got to post all...numerous times a day and show that you’re successful, your whole life.” [06:00]
  • Financial troubles, living beyond their means.

• Shanann's MLM and Social Media Persona

  • Shanann constantly presented an idyllic family and business life online—a source of stress and alienation for Chris.
  • Mary Payne: “Even when she’s announcing she’s having a baby, it’s on film. Like, he can’t just have this moment with his wife.” [07:16]

• Chris's Affair & Motivation

  • Had a brief, intense affair with co-worker Nicole.
  • Nicole had researched Shanann on social media up to a year prior.
  • Mary Payne: “She definitely knew he was married...She knew from fall. If you’re following Shanann, who’s posting six times a day about how wonderful her husband is...she knew he wasn’t separated.” [11:25]
  • Juxtaposition between Chris’s mundane, trapped life and the excitement of the new relationship.
  • A lingering question: Was Nicole involved beyond the affair? Her internet searches during the crime window are highly suspicious.

• Murder Timeline and Cover-Up

  • Shanann returns home from a trip at 2 am; Chris murders her after a fight.
  • He then drives daughters (alive, in pajamas) and Shanann’s corpse to a remote oil site, murders the children, and disposes of the bodies.
  • Mary Payne: “The female investigator said, you know, when he told us what really happened, it was way worse than any of us could have imagined that we had allowed our brains to go.” [25:24]

• Botched Alibi and Collapse

  • Chris’s transparent lies and bizarre actions (unenrolling kids from school and calling a realtor right after the murders).
  • Fails a polygraph, blames Shanann for killing the children (a story fed to him directly by investigators in an attempt to prompt a confession).
  • Admits full culpability to avoid death penalty.
  • Heather: “Talk about the dumbest criminal on earth. I mean, could you be more obvious?” [21:25]
  • Mary Payne: “He said once he started doing it, he knew he was going to do it and he couldn’t stop.” [25:34]

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Social Analysis & True Crime Parallels

[16:23; 41:48 – 1:00:00]

• Misogyny and the 'Other Woman'

  • Nicole’s internet searches post-murder (“Did Amber Frey get a book deal?”) reflect a fascination with infamy and a lack of empathy for the victims.
  • Mary Payne: “She’s just like, I don’t know. Like he told me he was like separated. I mean I barely knew the guy...” [29:30]

• Family Dynamics and Emotional Underpinnings

  • Chris’s parents disliked Shanann, refused to attend their wedding, and contributed to the estrangement.
  • The lack of a support system, combined with financial woes and ego, apparently fueled Chris’s sense of “no way out.”
  • Heather: “For a narcissistic person, it’s like the kids are an extension of yourself, and they’re just like a pawn.” [27:10]

• Comparison to Other Family Annihilation Cases

  • Scott Peterson: Parallels in the “wife and baby go missing” scenario, media circus, and involvement of a mistress.
    • Amber Frey’s contrast to Nicole: went to police, completely unaware of Peterson’s marriage.
    • Heather: “What with her [Amber], the fact that she really didn’t know and did all the right things...” [17:49]
    • Discussion about Peterson’s infamous crime and speculation about financial motives and other girlfriends.
  • Menendez Brothers: Money, abuse, and cold calculation; discussion of the lasting public fascination with their case.
    • Mary Payne: “Listen, a lot of the cases we talk about are just people that are dumb.” [55:15]
  • Dr. Jeffrey MacDonald Case: Early example of family annihilation spun as a hippie invasion; later debunked by forensic evidence.
    • Heather: “He knew where he could, like, stab himself without it being, like, fatal.” [44:26]

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Criminal Psychology & Cultural Context

[41:48 – End]

• Narcissism and Lack of Remorse

  • Post-arrest statements demonstrate remarkable lack of guilt; discussion references Dr. Drew’s assessment on how killers process their actions.
  • Heather: “People like this...they don’t feel bad. People that do this bad of things don’t then suddenly feel bad because they had the will to do it.” [40:11]

• Female Serial Killers & Tabloid Culture

  • Eileen Wuornos discussed as a rare female serial killer whose traumatic background stirred some public empathy, but still led to her execution.
    • Mary Payne: “I did. And the one guy, the one guy that she first got convicted on...no criminal history whatsoever...but then they went and found all this stuff...he had a horrible criminal history.” [41:48]

• True Crime Pop Culture: Reality TV Tangents

  • Fascination with women who seek out relationships with prisoners.
    • Heather: “If they’re in there for life...what a great husband. They don’t come home, they don’t tell you what to do. It’s really nice.” [47:27]
  • Sidebars on Love After Lockup, 90 Day Fiancé, and the Gypsy Rose Blanchard saga.
  • Commentary on how infamy, obsession, and the pursuit of being “special” often underpin both the criminals and those drawn to them.

• Final Reflection

  • Team explores why people are fascinated by these crimes—a mix of horror at the deeds and curiosity about the extreme psychological and social factors at play.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On relating to the unimaginable:
  • Mary Payne [04:06]: “You can imagine somehow being so mad at your spouse that you could kill them...but you can’t imagine ever doing that to your children. And it’s so crazy.”
• On living ‘on camera’ through MLM:
  • Heather [06:00]: “It’s all because of the products. Not just because you’re taking them, but because you’re selling them...constantly being on them as a family.”
• On the mistress’ role:
  • Heather [12:30]: “It just takes a certain kind of woman that knows it and, like, gets off on it...kind of obsessed with her and like, oh, he’s with her. You know, he’s married to her, but he's fucking me.”
• On Nicole’s shocking internet searches:
  • Mary Payne [16:23]: “Her internet searches were ‘married men leaving their wives.’ ...and then when it’s on the news that the wife and kids are missing...[it’s] literally things like ‘Amber Fry book deal’ and ‘do people hate Amber Fry?’”
• On Watts’s post-murder actions:
  • Mary Payne [20:56]: “After he killed his wife and kids...on the way home he called the kids' school to say he need to unenroll them. And then he called a realtor to talk about selling the house. All within that 45 minute drive home after burying them.”
• On the banality of evil:
  • Mary Payne [25:34]: “He said once he started doing it, he knew he was going to do it and he couldn’t stop.”
• On why women pursue prisoner relationships:
  • Heather [47:27]: “What a great husband. Like, they don’t come home, they don’t tell you what to do...you’re also kind of this martyr, right. That this person is forever dependent on you.”
• On true crime pop culture:
  • Heather [50:44]: “That’s actually not fun. That’s like work...now that I’m out, I don’t want you.” (on post-prison Gypsy Rose and reality TV isolation)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:34] – Main episode begins; introduction of Mary Payne and the Chris Watts case
• [04:42] – Mary Payne’s revisiting of the case and personal reflections
• [06:00] – Deep dive into Shanann’s MLM influencer life and family facade
• [10:13] – Nicole (the mistress): identity, role, and strange behavior
• [16:23] – The Amber Frey comparison; mistress motives and internet searches
• [21:25] – Chris’s bizarre post-murder conduct (school unenrollment, realtor call)
• [25:31] – Chris’s confession strategies and police investigation
• [27:10] – Narcissism and control dynamics in family annihilator psychology
• [41:48] – Discussion transitions: remorse (or lack thereof), Eileen Wuornos, and tabloid killers
• [47:27] – Prison wives and the allure of “safe” incarcerated partners
• [50:44] – Gypsy Rose Blanchard, Love After Lockup, and true crime media cycles
• [55:15] – Menendez brothers and broader family annihilator patterns

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Conclusion

The “Family Annihilators” episode is a sharp-edged blend of true crime investigation, pop culture commentary, and psychological analysis. Heather and Mary Payne expertly unpack the elements that create—and cover up—unthinkable crimes, while reflecting on why such stories endlessly captivate the public imagination. Their conversation, though heavy in subject, retains an irreverent, conversational style, which both lightens the tone and offers fresh perspectives on stories that have become cultural touchstones.

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Transcript

[Monet X Change]

All right, y', all, gather round. Because Monet X change from sibling rivalry is here with an announcement. This episode of the podcast is brought to you by Google Gemini. Now listen, the girls over at Google said Monet tell the children, so I'm telling you, us college students. Get Google Gemini's pro plan free for one year. Use the best model in the world for multimodal understanding. So whether you're uploading a video to get feedback on your presentation, uploading a photo of your homework to ask for help, or transcribing notes from a lecture you missed, Gemini 3 Pro can help. And, baby, if I had this in college, oh, she would have been unstoppable. Picture it. Monet X changed in the library. Uploading picture of my music theory homework. Like Gemini, please help a diva out. Or recording my rehearsal videos for feedback instead of crying in the practice room for three hours. This would have been life changing. Now back to the goods. Sign up to get more access to Google's Most accurate model, Gemini 3 Pro. Unlimited image uploads, pro level image editing, higher limits in NotebookLM, Gemini in Gmail and Docs. Two terabytes of storage and more. You heard me, two terabytes. That's enough space to store every vocal warmup, drag race look, and every photo your aunt sends you of her plants. Visit Gemini Google students to learn more and sign up. Terms apply.

[Heather]

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[Mary Payne]

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[Heather]

Jacket for your husband that you definitely did not. Almost forget. Marshalls, we get the deals, you give the good stuff, even at the last minute.

[Mary Payne]

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[Heather]

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[Mary Payne]

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[Heather]

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[Monet X Change]

It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug.

[Heather]

Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us.

[Monet X Change]

Cut the camera.

[Heather]

They see us.

[Mary Payne]

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[Heather]

Liberty.

[Mary Payne]

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[Heather]

Hello and welcome to Juicy Crimes. I have a friend of mine, fellow podcaster and like me, very into crimes. Mary Payne. Welcome to Juicy Crimes.

[Mary Payne]

Hi, Heather. Thank you for having me in your lovely home.

[Heather]

Yes. So we are going to talk about some classic crimes and some Similarities between ones over the decades. And the one that you and I were first going to talk about was the story of the Watts family, which there is a documentary on it, you may recall just then. We'll get into it, but briefly. A very attractive, cute family in Colorado. The man, his wife wasn't answering the phone. And they. The friend was like, I dropped her off. They had come from an MLM conference. Conference. And she dropped her off that night and that morning she wasn't there. So that he eventually came back from work and she and the two daughters were gone. And it is just fascinating that initial video of him being caught of. He did do a family annihilation. Yes. And I mean, what are your initial thoughts? And we can just kind of walk through. There's just so much to unpack that I still think about this case. Because there's just so many elements of what drove him to feel this was his only option.

[Mary Payne]

I know it's nuts. I rewatched it knowing we were gonna talk about this. Cause I covered it years ago on my show. And I was like, God, so bad. And then some details. I think that my brain, like, made me forget about what he did, you know, to his daughters and all that. You're like, you know, as a. As a parent or as a human, you can't imagine. You can imagine somehow being so mad at your spouse that you could kill them. Everybody could, don't come at me. I'm not gonna kill my husband. But you can't imagine ever doing that to your children. And it's so crazy.

[Heather]

It was so amazing. I was so into it and following it and following like TikTok investigators and stuff. And so let's just like, let's just start. So Chris Watts. What was his wife's name?

[Mary Payne]

Shanann.

[Heather]

Shannan. They. He was a very good looking guy. But what I thought was interesting is someone kind of described him as a beta male versus an alpha male.

[Mary Payne]

Yes.

[Heather]

And that he just kind of like would go with the flow, yet he had a decent job. But it was at this oil refinery. So was. Would that be considered like a. Of a blue collar? Like a. Was he like a engineer type of.

[Mary Payne]

Yeah, I think he would go out and check on these, you know, again, I don't know. But he would go out and check on the things every day to see. And every day he had certain ones that he had to do. So that's why they were very easily able to figure out where he went. Because he'd go to these very remote locations.

[Heather]

Yeah.

[Mary Payne]

For his job. And then she was very into this mlm.

[Heather]

Now, let's just talk about that because I thought that was really fascinating. So she was an attractive girl and had two young daughters. And, you know, someone I'm sure approached her. Wouldn't you like to have your own business? Wouldn't you like to make your own money?

[Mary Payne]

Yeah.

[Heather]

And it was all this, like, vitamin supplement, patches for the patches and all this stuff. And part of the people above her to get her to sell was you've got to post all. Numerous times a day and. And show that you're successful your whole life. Yeah. That you're happy. And that it's all because of the products. Not just because you're taking them, but because you're selling them. Because, of course, you want to get other people under. Under you. And it was constant. And when you look back at those videos, you can tell he's not into it. No, he's not into the camera. Constantly being on them as a family. And then she would always just be like, best husband in the world and, like, really pushing this, like, perfect family thing. And. And then, of course, in doing that, not only do you have to spend money to make money, you have to buy all these products, but they were definitely, like, upside down financially, living beyond their means, yet she wasn't going to, like, change her spending. Not that anyone deserves to, you know, have someone kill them for that. But I think it added to his feeling of there's just no way out of this.

[Mary Payne]

Yes. I think he felt very trapped by her, you know, huge personality and the constant. Even when she's, you know, announcing she's having a baby, it's on film. Like, he can't even just, like, have this moment with his wife. It's gotta be. Everything has to be recorded.

[Heather]

That's right. So she finds that she's pregnant.

Actually with a boy. But before she knew it was a boy, she saves that moment.

To tell him, which I really think that is. That is. I mean, a lot of influencers do it.

[Mary Payne]

That's right.

[Heather]

It's a good video. Clickbait. Also, if you're selling vitamins. Yeah, that helps. Oh, my God, look, I got. I didn't think I could get pregnant with my third. I'm already in my mid-30s. Like, that helps, you know, tangent. There was a girl at my school, and she and her sister were selling some weird MLM vitamin thing.

[Mary Payne]

Okay.

[Heather]

And she was, you know, trying to get me involved or whatever. And I've got to tell you, Heather, I have so much energy and Everything. And they both got pregnant, like over 40. They both like their kids. Like, there's a big age gap. Okay. The kids were fine. The kids are now high school age, but.

[Mary Payne]

So you're saying it worked? And then.

[Heather]

I don't know. I recently saw her and I go, whatever happened with those vitamins? She's like, oh, God. I stopped taking and selling them. And I'm like. I'm like, that was like a very good advertising. If you were trying to get pregnant, you were older. And I mean, it was just. And maybe it did have something to do with it, but it was weird.

[Mary Payne]

Well, her whole thing was that she had lupus and she had been very, very sick and all these various vitamins and things. I don't know if she claimed they cured her. They'd helped her so much. And, you know, her whole thing of, like, when I married my husband, he knew me at my worst and my lupus was the worst. And every video, everything of both of them, they have the patches here. They have them here. They always have the patches on. And I looked up the company today on the way over here. Cause I was like, is this still a thing? Well, they've moved the GLP ones, so.

[Heather]

Okay.

[Mary Payne]

Just so you know, they're. They're helping you lose weight as well now, but they still have all the patches. And it's like, do you know why we're. That we've sold millions? Because we're the best now. Of course. I was trying to scroll through the website to see where can I join? Like, to see if you could still join. But it doesn't tell you that on the website.

[Heather]

Join to sell. Do you think they changed it?

[Mary Payne]

I don't know. I don't know if, like, you have to know somebody, you know, or maybe.

[Heather]

It was bought or something.

[Mary Payne]

It could have been bought, but it's still out there. It's level L, E dash V E L like love L. Thrive.

[Heather]

Thrive.

[Mary Payne]

Yeah, thrive. And it was. But he, you know, I was saying. I felt like I remembered he tried to blame some of his aggression on those patches. And he did say in a prison interview that once he was on the patches and stuff, he did feel like he didn't sleep much because he was just always wanting to work out, you know, so he didn't say that that's why he did it, but that he was mentally changed from constantly being awake and also banging another girl.

[Heather]

Right. So let's talk about the other girl. The other girl was someone he met at work and wasn't her name Nicole. And so I remember they, they meet and.

You know, it was very interesting about her because I believe they kind of put her in witness protection or something, because I think she put herself at witness. Yeah, I think she did. I mean, she may have gone and like, changed her name because I've seen where they were trying to find her. And, you know, she claimed in the beginning, like, I, I, I didn't know that he was going to do this, but it, but she did cooperate and they did put her, like, didn't they, like, tape their calls?

[Mary Payne]

There's a lot of it that she said that in her first thing, that they met in June and then he killed his wife in August. I'm like, that's a really quick turnaround, you know, to like, all of a sudden I'm in love with this girl and I'm gonna kill my whole family.

[Heather]

Yeah.

[Mary Payne]

Then in another interview, she said July, but when they went through her computer and stuff, they found that from the September before, she had been researching Shanann.

[Heather]

That's right.

[Mary Payne]

So. Cause she, I think she saw him at work.

[Heather]

Yeah.

[Mary Payne]

And thought, he's kind of cute. Let me, let's see what's doing with his wife and kids. So she definitely knew he was married. She definitely, she says, you know, oh, he told me he was separated, but she knew from fall. If you're following Shanann, who's posting six times a day about how wonderful her husband is, these perfect kids, and da, da, da. She knew that he wasn't separated.

[Heather]

Do you recall her age? She was about their age. She wasn't significantly younger. So she's like mid-30s or something.

[Mary Payne]

Yeah, I think she was also like, late 20s, early 30s. But when Shanann went out of town for the six weeks to see the families in North Carolina, that's when they really just, like, spent all the time together.

[Heather]

She took her two daughters to stay, and then so he had six weeks off to fuck around in the summer in Colorado with his new girlfriend. Like, completely living another life. No bedtime, no bath time, no responsibility. And I find it so interesting that she knew that he was married and pursued it. I'm sure he said, I'm not happy. I'm gonna end it.

[Mary Payne]

We're getting divorced. We're getting divorced.

[Heather]

And it's just so, it just takes a certain kind of woman that knows it and, like, gets off on it that is, like, you know, kind of obsessed with her and like, oh, he's with her. You know, he's married to her, but he's fucking me. And you know, he's thinking and like there's something where it's like, I always think, I think that with celebrities too. Like, I used to say that about even like a Lamar and Chloe. I'm like, anyone that's fucking Lamar, once he was married to Chloe, was more obsessed with Chloe, right. And the Kardashians and just to be somewhat adjacent to that world than just, oh, I love Lamar. He's so great. You know, it's like, it's so. And then to have it just like on a normal, like middle class level where you're just like, hmm, let me see what I can do with this. And then, you know, maybe the adrenaline's going and the passion is real.

But then when he finds out she's pregnant. Was that before the summer break?

[Mary Payne]

Yes, because when she went to North Carolina, she was like 14, 15 weeks pregnant or so. When she comes back from the trip, when you see her going into her house at 2 in the morning, and then after that is when he killed her. I mean, she's visibly pregnant. And then all the pictures from the MLM trip, she's like holding her belly and.

[Heather]

But was, but in the timeline, do you recall, was he already seeing the Nicole before he knew she was. She was pregnant. But he probably. He may have not known it. Do you think?

[Mary Payne]

Okay, well, if we do the math on it. So she was killed like August 12th, something like that. And he said he'd been seeing this girl since June. She was 15 weeks pregnant. So that's about three months. So yeah, I mean, I think either he had just started the thing with Nicole and then finds out his wife is pregnant because after that he completely stopped having sex with his wife. Completely. She's like all to her friends, she was like, he won't have sex with me. I know something's going on. Like, you know, I just took a shower and that's our indication. Like, come on, get it on. And he's not doing it. And.

[Monet X Change]

All right, y' all gather round because Monet X change from sibling rivalry is here with an announcement. This episode of the podcast is brought to you by Google Gemini. Now listen, the girls over at Google said Monet tell the children. So I'm telling you, us college students. Get Google Gemini's pro plan free for one year. Use the best model in the world for multimodal understanding. So whether you're uploading a video to get feedback on your presentation, uploading a photo of your homework to ask for help, or transcribing notes from a lecture you missed, Gemini 3 Pro can help. And baby, if I had this in college, oh, she would have been on stage. Stoppable. Picture it. Monet X changed in the library. Uploading a picture of my music theory homework. Like Gemini, please help a diva out. Or recording my rehearsal videos for feedback instead of crying in the practice room for three hours. This would have been life changing. Now back to the goods. Sign up to get more access to Google's Most accurate model, Gemini 3 Pro. Unlimited image uploads, pro level image editing, higher limits in NotebookLM, Gemini in Gmail and Docs.

[Mary Payne]

2.

[Monet X Change]

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[Mary Payne]

Yes.

[Monet X Change]

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[Heather]

Let's do this. One of the best Marvel movies of.

[Mary Payne]

All time is now streaming on Disney plus. Hey, you weren't listening to me. I said Thunderbolts.

[Monet X Change]

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[Heather]

Meet the new Avengers.

[Mary Payne]

That's cool. Then Marvel Studios Thunderbolts, the new Avengers.

[Monet X Change]

Rated PG 13 now streaming on.

[Mary Payne]

You guessed it, Disney Plus. It's the. And then I want to go back to this Nicole and her Internet searches. Her Internet searches were married men leaving their wives. Like all these Internet searches and then when it's on the news that the wife and kids are missing. Her Internet searches are literally things like Amber Frye book deal and do people hate Amber Fry.

[Heather]

And Amber Fry, to remind people was the mistress of Scott peterson. And she 100 did not know he was married.

[Mary Payne]

And nobody hated that.

[Heather]

Certainly didn't know that he had a baby. He had told her Scott Peterson that his wife had died and this would be his first Christmas without her.

[Mary Payne]

Yes.

[Heather]

When he started to date her. And you know, the Scott Peterson.

That whole thing I. People think. I don't think he's guilty. I just think there is a lot of things that were suspicious in the neighborhood with women missing and that the house looked cute, but the neighborhood really wasn't very cute. Like, like adjacent. And yeah, there's, you know, there were people that said they saw the pregnant woman walking and then of course, you know, eventually she was found, but in the water.

[Mary Payne]

I still think Scott Peters, I think he did it.

[Heather]

Yeah, no, I definitely think he did it. And.

And yeah, but what with her, the fact that she really didn't know and did all the right things. Amber Fry, she went right to the police. I told her friend, like, her friend or something is the one who said, have you turned on the news?

[Mary Payne]

Yeah.

[Heather]

And I remember that she didn't know about that. And I'm like. And I was such. You know, we watched the news and of course I was obsessed with it because I was newly married. And I want to say maybe I just had Drake, but. Or she was like, just behind me.

[Mary Payne]

Around the same age.

[Heather]

And it was just every night, where is she? And she's missing and this and that. And I remember when they were like, gloria Allred comes up to represent her, knowing that, like, oh, my God, she's going to be crucified. But because she did everything right.

[Mary Payne]

Yes.

[Heather]

And then of course, his attorney, Mark Garagos, kind of took the thing of, like, listen, no offense, but she's not the woman that you, like, kill your wife for and whatever.

[Mary Payne]

And I'm like, why not?

[Heather]

Why not?

[Mary Payne]

Like, why not?

[Heather]

Or just to be free just because you want that life. And I brought this up because we're hopping around, but I remember when I was talking about Scott Peterson a lot a few years ago, because there was something coming up about it. Another doc or. Or the sister in law that's like his attorney or whatever, she's like obsessed with him, the sister in law, his brother's wife. And.

This person reached out to me and said, I remember when we. The news came on, my husband was in that industry, and his face comes up looking for his wife or whatever. And her husband, I remember, just dropped his spoon and was like, wait, what? That guy's married? They were at a convention and he was taking numbers, given his card, telling everyone who is single. So I think he was already a serial cheater. And I think. I always think what happened with that is I think she found out about Amber, and I think she's found feisty. And I think she said, oh, you're gonna pay for the rest of your life. I'm gonna take 50% of your money. You're not gonna have a pot to piss in, you know? And he real. And he. That's like, what hit him. Either he either said it maybe like a day or two before, or it was a crime of passion. And then he poorly covered it up with going fishing. But I think he was just like. It just seemed like a life sentence. And he just was like, no. And. And then, you know.

[Mary Payne]

Yeah, I mean, the same with this guy.

[Heather]

I think he also reinstated his porn that night. He like, Called the cable company up and got the porn. Yeah, on the first day that she was missing.

[Mary Payne]

Oh, because he was.

[Heather]

So if you think that she's just kidnapped or coming back, why would you then pay for the porn for the month and then have to turn, you know, have it turned off when she comes home tomorrow?

[Mary Payne]

Well, that is similar to what Chris Watts did after he killed his wife and kids and you know, took them out to the refinery and buried them and dropped them in the offal. After he did that, on the way home, he called the kids school to say that they, he need to unenroll them. And then he, and he called a realtor to talk about selling the house. All within that 45 minute drive home after burying them. He called the realtor to talk about listing the house and called the kids school to say they need to be unenrolled.

[Heather]

I mean, talk about the dumbest criminal on earth. I mean like, could you be more obvious?

[Mary Payne]

Yeah.

[Heather]

With this chick Nicole.

So now let's jump to the, the night. So she goes and does like a two, two night convention or something in Arizona, right?

[Mary Payne]

Yeah.

[Heather]

And flies home that night with her girlfriend and goes up another Nicole.

[Mary Payne]

Spelled differently. Her friend.

[Heather]

Her friend was named Nicole.

[Mary Payne]

Yeah.

[Heather]

So see, the girl drops her off. She's part of the MLM too. And that's when we have, I mean it's, it's all come out now. I mean he did, he did at one point admit to doing it. They like brought in his dad and the dad was like, come on, you just need to like tell. And he then tells this crazy story that he said, I'm going to leave you or I want to get divorced or something. And that she lost it and went and killed the daughters, smothered them. And once he saw that, then he lost his shit and killed her.

[Mary Payne]

Right. That was his original story.

[Heather]

Came up with that story.

[Mary Payne]

He came up with it because the polygraph, who was a woman, the detective, after she came in, she goes, okay, so obviously, you know, like you failed terribly the polygraph, like 100%. Like she said that. I saw an interview with her later where she said it has to be like negative 4 for you to be fail. And he was like negative 18 for every single question. And she goes, so, you know, you failed it obviously. And she says, so now's the time. You're just going to go ahead and tell us what happened. Like maybe something happened. Maybe, maybe Shanann did something to the kids. Or maybe you found out she had a boyfriend. Like she was throwing out things to him, like a lifeline. Uh huh. Like maybe.

[Heather]

Yeah, like playing that good cop of like, hey, look, look, you're not the first man. Maybe she was a bitch.

[Mary Payne]

Yeah, maybe she was a bitch. So he threw it, he threw it out there. She threw these things out there. And then when the other cop came back in, he goes, okay, here's what happened. I came home and realized like she had killed the kids. And I just flew into a rage. And she said later in an interview, she goes, I was wondering which one of those things he was going to take. I just put a bunch out there and I wonder which one will he pick? And that's the one he picked. And when they came back in to tell him they were arresting him, they said, she said, so you want me to go out there and tell the public that your wife killed your daughters? You want that out there about her? You want her parents to hear that, that she killed the daughters? And he's like, that's what happened. She was trying to give him like, yeah. And of course they never said that, they never said that ever that, that he had said that because it wasn't true. And then eventually they did get him later to admit what he did. Was he.

She came home at 2 in the morning. He said that he had sex with her. He hadn't had sex with her in months. Had sex with her. And then they woke up a few hours later because he said he only slept three hours, woke up a few hours later, and he said, I just wanted to like tell you that it's over. And she was like, then what was that about? We had sex and that they had a big fight. He said he got on top of her and was screaming at her. And she was saying, you're never gonna see your kids again. Like, if you cheated on me, you're never gonna see your kids again. This is according to him. And that he suffocated her. And one of the little girls walked in and said, what's wrong with mommy? He said, oh, you know, she's sleeping. And then he wrapped her up in a blanket, put her on the floorboard of the car, his truck, then got the two little girls awake in their pajamas, put them in the backseat with the mom dead on the floor. And they were like, what's wrong with mom? Oh, she's sleeping. Took her out to the place, buried the mom, suffocated the girls, one while the other watched, and then threw them into two separate oil things where he had to like climb up. I mean, to think that you could do that. All of it. Like. And the investigator, the female investigator said, you know, when he told us what really happened, it was way worse than any of us could have imagined that we had allowed our brains to go. That.

[Heather]

So, I mean, it's so premeditated. You know, premeditation just has to. Can be five seconds.

[Mary Payne]

Right.

[Heather]

Doesn't have to be a big plan.

[Mary Payne]

He said once he started doing it, he knew he was going to do it and he couldn't stop. He said, I don't know. I just somehow knew in my mind I was going to do it and I couldn't stop.

[Heather]

I mean, it's. It's so horrible. But in going deeper, he kind of had some weird parents. And there's something about. I don't know, it was like the way they'd kind of coddled him and.

[Mary Payne]

And they hated her. They hated Shanann. The parents did?

[Heather]

Yeah. They were like, what were some of the things that they did that was like that you.

[Mary Payne]

They didn't come to the wedding because they didn't like her because they said she was taking him to Colorado. And both sets of parents lived in North Carolina. So I don't know if his job took him to Colorado or what, but the parents didn't come to the wedding. And then when, in that six weeks when she was in North Carolina, one of the kids had like severe allergies, allergic to alleged everything. And the mom sat down and gave the girls ice cream. And the one little girl, like, couldn't eat it or she would have anaphylactic shock.

[Heather]

Yeah.

[Mary Payne]

And so she was furious at the mother in law and told him, like, she's very harsh on text with him.

[Heather]

Like, yeah.

[Mary Payne]

You know, berating him. Like, this is ridiculous. Your mom, dah, dah, dah. She doesn't even care about her kids. He's like, you're right. She should have never done that. I'm really sorry. She's like, I'll never speak to her again. I'm never talking to your mother again. Like, I tried. She put her kid in danger.

[Heather]

So, I mean, that's another thing. And his sick mind of thinking there's no out.

[Mary Payne]

Yeah.

[Heather]

Is that too. That now, you know, he's. He might if he's seeing himself as a victim. Like, my. My parents can't be part of their lives. Now she's telling me I'm not going to be part of their lives. Well, then what's the point of even having them?

And you know, for a narcissistic person, it's like the Kids are an extension.

[Mary Payne]

Of yourself, and they're like, just like a pawn. Yeah.

[Heather]

Yeah. I hate it when moms say about their daughter, my mini me. I hate that expression.

[Mary Payne]

I've never said that.

[Heather]

I know, but even if you did. Yeah, even if you did, I don't think you're a bad person, But I just think there's something. There's something weird.

[Mary Payne]

So you're saying you could see the three of them dressing and matching outfits, her and the daughters?

[Heather]

Yeah. Like, I don't know. I don't know if I'm just. But I'm saying, like, no, for even for him. Like, unless the daughters are going to be part of his life in a way that he has, you know, control of. Like, look at my perfect family.

[Mary Payne]

If.

[Heather]

If that's not going to happen, he's like, well, then I'm just going to destroy the family. Like, I don't need to have it if it can't be the way I want it.

[Mary Payne]

I think it's fully about the other girl. I think it was fully about. I got this hot girl who. She was googling things like how to prepare for anal. How to prepare for anal sex because she wanted that to be his first time. She wanted to do all these things.

[Heather]

These firsts.

[Mary Payne]

These firsts. And she wanted to. And then within, like, the. The same day that the wife and daughters are missing, he's texting with her and goes, she left her wedding rings on the nightstand. What should I do? And she wrote, I don't know, pawn them. Like, again. If you think she's coming back, why are you pawning her rings?

[Heather]

I think so. Do you. How much? Okay, what do you think? Because there's this one video that someone put together based on, like, surveillance video of that night. It looks like you see a brown ponytail. So there is some belief that she may have even been there that night.

[Mary Payne]

There's definitely belief, from what the neighbor said on the documentary, that there was this, like, gray truck. Not like his. Like, that's a big work truck, but like a gray truck that had been parked on the street a lot. And that was interesting. The neighbor said that. And that's the kind of car she had, not necessarily the night of the murder. But I was like, okay, well, she had been gone for six weeks, so probably the girl was over there all the time. You know, I think she.

[Heather]

I think she knew that he did it, but she thought maybe he could get away with it.

[Mary Payne]

Yeah, I think she thought, oh, well, it's all working out for me. And the Inert police interviews and stuff. There's no like, are you kidding me? Two children are dead and there's none of that. There's none of A woman is missing, two children are dead, three people are dead. There's none of it. She's just like, I don't know. Like you told me he was like separated. I mean I barely knew the guy. I was like, no. And then she'd been looking up the wife since September and this didn't happen until August.

[Heather]

Like cyber stalking her.

[Mary Payne]

Yeah, like her socials and probably making fun of her. Like, God, I can't believe he's married to this loser.

[Heather]

Right.

[Mary Payne]

Who posts all the time. I'm gonna be so much cooler. I'm gonna be the cool girl that's gonna have analysis and then.

[Heather]

Right. And then the child, the boy was going to be named Nicholas or Nikki or something like a version of her name.

[Mary Payne]

And.

Gosh, so many Nicos and Nicole's in this story.

[Heather]

Yeah, yeah. And also she might have been like, yeah, there is going to be no out. You're going to have to pay child support on three kids.

[Mary Payne]

Yeah.

[Heather]

The maximum is like 50% of your income. So he would only have half a patient.

[Mary Payne]

And they were broken probably because of her continuing to buy into the MLM and trying to. You know, they were probably broke cause of that. And he's like, and my parents aren't gonna help because now they hate my wife. And I think he just found him. I think. But I think 99% of it was about the girl. 99% was like, God, look at this hot girl that wants to do things and thinks I'm just so sexy. And like you say all the time, tells me I've got the greatest dick ever. Yeah.

[Heather]

Yeah.

[Mary Payne]

You know, so I think, I think that she.

[Heather]

Yeah. So then I do think they sort of protected her because the, the, you know, the people in the world wanted to find her.

[Mary Payne]

Yeah.

[Heather]

Because I and I. But I think they just, they didn't have enough that she had anything to do with it. They got him. You know, again it comes down to, you know, this is just someone who is a DA and they, there was not, obviously not worth pursuing for whatever reason. They either didn't have the evidence or they're like, we got the person that she's a piece of shit.

[Mary Payne]

Yeah.

[Heather]

We don't know for sure that she knew or helped plan it or helped cover it up or came just be.

[Mary Payne]

Like accessory to accessory after the fact or accessory or whatever. And they couldn't prove any of It. Because he's never going to say.

[Heather]

Right. Or even rings when he could have said. I don't know what. Like if she. If he said, wrote. She left her. Her rings were off, which I do with them. I don't know. Punnett. In her defense, she might have been like, he. He told me that she had taken off.

[Mary Payne]

Yeah.

[Heather]

That morning. She. He goes, she's not around. She took the girls. She said, she's leaving me. And she may have said, great.

[Mary Payne]

She was like, oh, wait, I thought you were already separated.

[Heather]

Yeah.

[Mary Payne]

You know. Yeah. Yeah. And it's interesting too, when he comes in the house and the cops are asking him, he goes, here's your phone. Here's your phone. And he turns it on and they're like, it's going to blow up. The phone's going to blow up. And it's a lot of texts from him going, hey, where are you? Call me. I'm coming to the house. You better be there. Where are you? You know, that kind of stuff.

[Heather]

Right.

[Mary Payne]

But not like, I had to leave work because your friends can't find you. And are you. This is annoying. Like, I had to leave work. Why'd you miss your doctor's appointment? You know? Right.

[Heather]

That would be the more the.

[Mary Payne]

That's what I would react to it.

[Heather]

Yeah.

[Mary Payne]

I would be like, hide, where are you?

[Heather]

Now I have to call the school and take the kids out before they charge us this month. Right.

[Mary Payne]

But his whole thing about unrolling them school was the school's expensive. And so let's go ahead and take that off for next month.

[Heather]

Right.

[Mary Payne]

Because they're not going to be there.

[Heather]

Right. Oh, my God.

[Mary Payne]

Close your eyes. Exhale. Feel your body relax. And let go of whatever you're keeping carrying today.

[Heather]

Well, I'm letting go of the worry that I wouldn't get my new contacts.

[Mary Payne]

In time for this class.

[Heather]

I got them delivered free from 1-800-contacts. Oh, my gosh.

[Mary Payne]

They're so fast.

[Heather]

And breathe.

[Mary Payne]

Oh, sorry. I almost couldn't breathe when I saw the discount they gave me on my first order. Oh, sorry.

[Heather]

Namaste. Visit 1-800-contacts.com today to save on your first order. 1-800-contacts this episode is brought to you by rakuten. The holidays are here and that means it's the most wonderful time of the year. To save with rakuten, use rakuten to stack cash back at your favorite stores. On top of holiday sales, that's savings on savings. With rakuten, you can get cash back.

[Mary Payne]

On gifts for everyone on your list.

[Heather]

From toys for the kids to kitchen gear for the person who loves to cook, to electronics for everyone. You can even save on something for yourself. Cash back is automatically added to your account as you shop and you can get paid with gift cards, PayPal or check.

[Mary Payne]

Or eligible American Express card members can.

[Heather]

Choose to earn membership rewards points, join for free today and get a new member bonus after minimum qualifying purchases. Just go to rakuten.com, download the app or install the browser extension terms and conditions apply.

[Mary Payne]

Meet the computer you can talk to with Copilot on Windows working, creating and collaborating is as easy as talking. Got writer's block? Share your screen with Copilot Vision to help spark inspiration and use Copilot voice to have a conversation and brainstorm ideas. Or maybe you need some tech help with Copilot Vision. Copilot sees what you see. Let Copilot talk you through step by step guidance so you can master new apps, games and skills faster. Try [e-mail] copilot crazy and all that stuff with her googling that. Did Amber Fry get a book deal? Do people hate Amber Fry? I was like, and this was the one day after they were missing one day. So that's why with her it's always like, yeah, but she is nowhere to be. The world is scrubbed of her. You cannot find her. I don't think she's witness protection because I think the government's got bigger people to hide. But I think she did it to herself.

[Heather]

She must have changed her name. She must have gotten. They must have helped her change her name.

[Mary Payne]

Yeah, she did something. But she, you know, but she's like the hot yoga teacher that wants to do anal. So I think I'll kill my whole family. I mean it just makes no sense. Just makes no sense. It's awful. And he does have girlfriends in prison, I found out, but not married yet. So that's good. That's good.

[Heather]

Does his family. Do the parents visit him?

[Mary Payne]

I think that the family is. Yeah, I think they're still supportive of him because when he, when they did the sentencing and said you get three back to back life sentences and then all these other, you know, desecration of a corpse and killing of a pregnant person and a feed us all these things that he got charged with, her mom got up and spoke and then his mom got up and spoke and people, a lot of people said that his mom was very. Her was very narcissistic. You know, it was kind of mostly about her.

[Heather]

That what I've gone through since you've done this.

[Mary Payne]

Yeah.

[Heather]

But not really berating him or.

[Mary Payne]

It's not really so much about, like, these. My grandchildren. That's to me, as a. As a parent, as a grandparent, it seems to me that would be the first thing you would be like, I'm never gonna get to see these, like, babies again. You know, I mean, and then the. Just the thousands of hours of videos of those two little girls. When I watched it again to prepare for this, I was like, God, now this is just really sticking with me. Two little girls see that weird video.

[Heather]

Where they think that there was a ghost of the girl in the. In the house.

[Mary Payne]

No.

[Heather]

So they have the cam. The body cam video of. He's at the house. The neighbor had come over to say, I saw a truck back up.

[Mary Payne]

Yes.

[Heather]

In the driveway. Because basically the neighbor saw him collecting her body.

[Mary Payne]

And he said he never did that. He never backed his truck all the way into the garage. Because he said, I backed my truck into the garage, and then I left for work. And when he left, the neighbor said to the cops, he never does that. He never pulls his truck all the way into the garage like that.

[Heather]

Yeah.

[Mary Payne]

Pulled it in.

[Heather]

And then. And then he also. So the. So then he brings him in the house, and he. The neighbor goes, here, I have the. My ring camera video. So they're looking at the ring camera video, but on. In his house, and there is, like, a little door, and you're like. Like a little girl's voice and like a door that shuts. And then, of course, I read the comments, and they're like, no, that's not that. Whatever. But it was weird. It was, like, definitely strange.

[Mary Payne]

But what was weird about that was the body cam of him standing in the neighbor's house when they're watching the ring. Yeah. He goes, yeah, there's my truck and everything. Oh, wait.

[Heather]

It was the neighbor's house or his house.

[Mary Payne]

It was in the. The neighbor was showing his ring footage, like, on his television to the cops. Oh, maybe.

[Heather]

I don't remember if this was a ghost, because why would the ghost be in the neighbor's house? Well, I don't know. I don't know.

[Mary Payne]

I got you. She got lost.

[Heather]

Yeah.

[Mary Payne]

But the. He's standing in front of the TV, Chris Watts, like this, and the TV's behind him there, and they just. The neighborhood. But the neighbor was watching something on, like, National Geographic. And he pauses the ring, and it goes back to whatever he was watching on the tv. And it's like a fetus floating on the screen, like, an in utero type of thing, like whatever you're watching on National Geographic. And then Chris Watts goes, oh, yeah. And she's 15 weeks pregnant, too. It is so weird, because he looks over and sees that, and he doesn't. No.

[Heather]

So he pretty much came clean, like, within, what, 48 hours.

[Mary Payne]

I think on the third day is when they. Because I think they had him in there. And then she goes, you'll take a polygraph. He's oh, yeah. Nothing to hide. Nothing high.

[Heather]

And then he did. They finally did bring the dad. And it was the dad that kind of got him.

[Mary Payne]

Yeah, well, the dad sat down, like, what's going on? And he was just like. Like low, whispering. His dad's going, what? And he said, she hurt them. And the dad's like, she hurt the kids. So he had taken that idea and come up with that in the time between when the detective came out and brought the dad in, he's like, okay, that was a good. That was a good excuse. I'll say. She hurt the kids, so I had to kill her. And then I had to go and take them all out and bury them and throw the two kids into, like, oil.

[Heather]

Do you remember when the mom did a speech? She wasn't still thinking.

I mean, was she so weird to believe. Did she ever.

[Mary Payne]

No. Cause he had fully admitted he'd walked through exactly what happened, eventually finally came clean. And he did eventually say how he killed the kids, how the kids were alive in the car and the mom was dead on the floor.

[Heather]

Because there wasn't a trial. There was just sentencing. Because he had admitted it, because he.

[Mary Payne]

Wanted to avoid the death penalty. He said he would fully, you know, tell the whole thing if he didn't get the death penalty, which to me is another sign of narcissism. Because to me, if I had done all that of it, go ahead and kill me. Like, who cares?

[Heather]

Yeah. You know, I've talked to Dr. Drew about that, and he's like, people like this don't then. Because I'm like, who? I'm like, I wouldn't. I'd want to die. Like, I wouldn't want to relive it. And he's like, but they don't feel bad. They're people that do this. Bad of things don't then suddenly feel bad because they had the will to do it. So they. They don't think like, you and me.

[Mary Payne]

Yeah. To me, I. I'd be like, yes, please give me the death penalty.

[Heather]

Yeah, please.

[Mary Payne]

But his whole thing happened tomorrow. Yeah, I'll Admit to everything. Just not to get the death penalty, which makes no sense to me. I'm like, why? So you can get more girlfriends? Like, you're never getting out.

[Heather]

Well, and also, like, if you do believe there's a heaven and hell, you're like, I most likely going to go to hell. Then like, my God, maybe. So I don't have, like this. Oh, okay. Well, the next afterlife will be, you.

[Mary Payne]

Know, but he could always do a dead man walking and get like a citizen random to come in and a nun and abscond him, you know.

[Heather]

Right. And forgive him. Right.

[Mary Payne]

Oh, my God. I just watched the Eileen. The Eileen Warnist documentary and her whole thing was like, she was like, begging for the death penalty. She was like, please, like, I've admitted I've killed these seven people. Please. What are you waiting on, ten more years?

[Heather]

She was the one that Charlize Theron Theron played who she was a sex worker who was killing her johns.

[Mary Payne]

She only killed seven out of like 400. And she claimed they were all self defense. These people were, you know, doing whatever. Which is interesting too. The whole thing is interesting. But that's an example.

[Heather]

Did you feel in watching the doc, did you have empathy for her at all? Because, I mean, she did have such an awful life and was so used and abused.

[Mary Payne]

Mm, I did. I did. And the one guy, the one guy that she first got convicted on, they said, you know, he had no criminal history whatsoever. He definitely wouldn't have attacked her in the way that she said that she had to do self defense. And then they went and found all this stuff. Like he had been in prison before for rape and all this stuff. And they were like, did you not even look to see that this guy had a horrible criminal history?

[Heather]

How was she killing the men she was shooting them?

[Mary Payne]

It once it went like, you know, it was transactional, right? So it's like, you give me money, I give you whatever they agreed upon. And then when the person tried to physically attack her in a different way than what they sex they'd agreed upon, then she would shoot them. But it was like seven guys, like.

[Heather]

Dead in the car.

[Mary Payne]

And we'll take the car. She throw them. Just take the car.

[Heather]

Okay.

[Mary Payne]

For a little while. Just have a little fun with her girlfriend.

[Heather]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mary Payne]

They had a good time together. Two of them.

[Heather]

Amazing. So the story that this reminded me of, and I'm sure maybe other people had made the connection, but it's a very old crime. And I remembered it because the man's name was McDonald. And he was a doctor in the army. And he claimed that he was asleep and woke up to like these hippies in their house, which was like on the army base. And his wife was pregnant too. Was.

[Mary Payne]

He did.

[Heather]

We were pregnant too and had two little girls. And so he may. It was much like the Manson murders that were happening. The LeBlanca murders, I think that was their name. Where this couple was murdered in Los Feliz. And then, then the. The same crew went and killed.

Tate. Yeah, Sharon Tate. Sharon Tate and her friends. And so he. On his coffee table and I'm remembering it was a magazine, like Time magazine that talked all about the murder and how there was like pig or something drawn in in their blood and that there were these like hippie types. And so he said he woke up and this girl had a floppy hat and a candle and they attacked him and then with like stabbing him or something and then went and killed the two children and the wife. But his wounds didn't kill him yet. Now remembering, but because he was a doctor, they thought he was the one that did it. And then he made up the story and they. He knew where he could like stab himself without it being like fatal.

[Mary Payne]

Yes. So he could hurt himself but not die.

[Heather]

Right?

[Mary Payne]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And remember that?

[Heather]

So it was interesting because in the beginning when they were like the cops thinking it was him and he made up the story, the parents in law, especially the father in law, his now dead wife's father was his advocate, was like, no, you know, this is horrible. He's a victim and this is so sad. And then.

He starts to do like the research himself and really helps put the case together of where the different body type, blood types of the kids were like moved from this room to this and it, you know, all then.

[Mary Payne]

To show it couldn't have been an intruder.

[Heather]

Right.

[Mary Payne]

And what was his. If assuming he. We believe he did it, what was his reason? Was there. Was there another woman? Was it just like. I'm just.

[Heather]

I mean from what I can recall, there wasn't some other woman. And that's why, you know, he's always claimed he's innocent, he's still alive. He has a wife that he married in 2002 who's still with him. And occasionally he'll be like on a 60 minutes like because it was such a fascinating, fascinating story. There's been definitely. There was a made for TV movie that I saw like in his 80s.

[Mary Payne]

Now, like he's going to be super.

[Heather]

Old and he was good looking. Yeah, he's like Tall and good looking and still good looking when he was old and like in his prison outfit. And he just always claimed he was innocent. And then there's been other.

You know, specials or documentaries of where the floppy hat girl, somebody, you know, she confessed it to somebody, that, yes, I was there and it was me. And you know, but then is that person that saw her, they were a druggie too, so how reliable that are they? And I mean like a Scott Peterson. You're spending the rest of your life in prison and you have this, you know, at least you have a wife who's, you know, sending you money for noodles and visiting you. So you're not gonna like admit it at the end. And you don't want the people in the prison to have you admit it, that you killed your family.

[Mary Payne]

Right.

[Heather]

I mean, I don't know when in sometimes with murderers they do just go. I just wanted to see what it felt like. Like, I just wanted to. I just did it. Like, I just did it. And he might have thought he was going to get away with it. Maybe, maybe he really did want to start a fresh life or maybe he just, I don't know, had just like a weird moment.

[Mary Payne]

I mean, he said, I do. Right when I started doing it, he said, it's like I knew all along I was going to do it and then I couldn't stop. So it is like I knew all along I was going to do it and then I did it and then I couldn't stop. And so then I was like, well, may as well kill the kids too.

[Heather]

Like with the Watts guy. Yeah, yeah.

[Mary Payne]

I just don't.

I don't get it. And I cover on my show a lot of love after lockup and 60 days in and all these things.

[Heather]

Yeah.

[Mary Payne]

And it is always the phenomenon too with these women that want to date or marry a prisoner. Now you've said, and I agree, it's, listen, if they're in there for life, that's like, what a great husband. Like, they don't come home, they don't tell you what to do. It's really nice.

[Heather]

And they're just like writing you letters every day saying that you're great. And then you have this, like. And then you're also kind of this martyr, right. That this person is forever dependent on you. They're always going to need you. And you can say, I've got a man, I've got a husband, I've got a husband. And you know, he's wonderful and he's.

[Mary Payne]

He'S so devoted to Me?

[Heather]

Yes.

[Mary Payne]

Obsessed with me, I would say I.

[Heather]

Kind of stopped watching that show. But, I mean, the. The only person, I think. And I wonder. I haven't followed her in a while, so I hope she's still doing good. But I had her on my show and she was like, season one or two, and she had, like, long red hair and she was abused and was into meth. And she said, if it wasn't for me going to prison, I would have never.

[Mary Payne]

Is it Britney? Britney and Marcelino?

[Heather]

Yes. Yes. Are they still together?

[Mary Payne]

They're not together, but they are one of the biggest success stories. So, you know, she had had all the abuse and stuff in her life growing up in Vegas. She had had several children that she gave up for adoption or the state took from her or whatever when she was like 15, 16, like, really young by these older men that were abusing her. She has since, like, reunited with several of them. With Marcelino, they had two kids, and then she had one that was like two when she went to prison the last time. She's like a realtor and lives in Florida and is doing great. But they are divorced.

[Heather]

They are divorced. Is she with a woman now? Remember, she had, like, a girlfriend in prison and then.

[Mary Payne]

And then she wanted Marcelino to, like, to do three ways, and then he says that's what broke up their marriage because she was trying to bring in another woman. I think that was all for tv. I think that, you know, I mean, he's a professional gambler, lives in Vegas, but she, like. Yeah, she took the kids and she's a realtor and lives in Florida. But I. And I don't think she's with a man or a woman at this moment.

[Heather]

I mean, just like the 90 Day Fiance, it's like whoever is the person pursuing the. The person in another country or in prison who comes out once they're out and in America and living a free life, whether they're on 90 day or it's like they're not forever grateful. They're not.

[Mary Payne]

Right.

[Heather]

They're like, oh, my God, like, now.

[Mary Payne]

We'Re married and it's equal and you're.

[Heather]

Annoying and I'm, you know, and it's everyday life. Yeah. Yeah. And I want it all. Like, if you're the person that, you know, got with this ugly guy because you just needed to come to America.

[Mary Payne]

Yeah.

[Heather]

That's one thing. And then if you're this person that, you know, was usually playing 10 guys in the prison.

[Mary Payne]

Yeah.

[Heather]

And then, you know, thought, okay, this guy. And then he's like, I'm your savior. And they're like, they get out and.

[Mary Payne]

They'Re never as rich as you thought they were.

[Heather]

No. And you're like, this house isn't that great. And like, I always think that about 90, 90 day fiance. Like, they. I think they always think that, like, they're gonna just be what they see on tv. So they think that, like, it's only Beverly Hills or Malibu.

[Mary Payne]

I think everything is LA or New York.

[Heather]

Yeah.

[Mary Payne]

And then they come in there in the middle of nowhere and they're like, I. There's not even a Starbucks in this town. You know, like, I gotta live here.

[Heather]

Right.

[Mary Payne]

It's always surprising. That's what Jasmine and Gino, she used to talk about Michigan. She was like, michigan is so depressing. She got a bitch again. I was like, it's not a good ad for Michigan. But she was always just railing on Michigan, like, it's so cold. It's so horrible here. She lives in Florida now, too.

[Heather]

Same thing with just Gypsy Rose Blanchard when she got out and married the guy that looked like her mother. And then even though she was filming the show, the fun of doing all the interviews in New York City was done. And now they're living in Louisiana.

[Mary Payne]

Yeah.

[Heather]

And she's got the cameras and the mics on, but that's. That's actually not fun. That's like work.

[Mary Payne]

Yeah.

[Heather]

And so she was like, this sucks. Like, we're just going to this sad same restaurant every week or whatever. And I'm not into, like, now I'm here and thank you for, like, writing me and spending all the money on me when I was there, but now that I'm out, I don't want you.

[Mary Payne]

But then didn't she, like, left that guy and they got pregnant with the other guy, then went back to the first guy?

[Heather]

No, the guy that she got pregnant with was her first guy.

[Mary Payne]

The first guy.

[Heather]

So she had a boyfriend in prison.

[Mary Payne]

Okay.

[Heather]

And then they broke up. Then she got with the one that looked like her mother and married him. And that's when she's like, the D is on fire. Like, yes, yes, yes. And then. And then she breaks up with her husband, gets pregnant, gets. Gets right back with the guy. Like, while she's like, like still seeing her husband or they're separated, she. She calls up the.

[Mary Payne]

The prison boyfriend.

[Heather]

Yeah. Who was seeing her one. And then she immediately gets pregnant with him to the point where the original husband wanted, like, a DNA test because it was so close, but it was the. The other guys. And I Don't know what happened. She had a reality show, and at one point, Jacques was like, Jacques Peterson was like, it's really kind of crazy. I want you to watch it. You know, And I was like, Like, I can't. Like, I just. And now that show is canceled.

[Mary Payne]

I had friends that covered it. I was like, I just. Listen, I, I listen, I even, even I have a limit of the trash. I'll watch.

[Heather]

Yeah, yeah, I do.

[Mary Payne]

It's a pretty low bar.

[Heather]

Yeah. And then, I mean, listen, I mean, do you imagine if that's your son who's dating or marrying or the father of a girl that basically was horribly abused as a kid, but also got another man to kill her mother, who has to spend the rest of his life in prison?

[Mary Payne]

Yeah, I think she sort of participated quite a bit in that too.

[Heather]

Yeah.

[Mary Payne]

Yeah. But, you know, hey. Right.

[Heather]

Yeah, I, I.

Yeah, it's with the, and also with the prison thing and just dating. Dating them. Yeah, I think that, I mean, I always talk about how, like that the both of Menendez brothers, especially, Especially Lyle has cheated on wives.

[Mary Payne]

His prison wives.

[Heather]

Yes.

[Mary Payne]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Heather]

With other women. Yeah. And, you know, and the fact that everyone just thinks they're, you know, that they should be let out and they're so great and. Yeah. It just doesn't work that way. Like Matt Murphy says, like, you, you killed the mom. Had they not killed the mom or.

[Mary Payne]

Gone back reloaded and gone back. Yeah, yeah.

[Heather]

Right. And then, and then again was like, oh, well. And then went to all the therapy sessions and didn't tell.

[Mary Payne]

Right. And then when I started finding all money and like, oh, everything's, everything's great. Nothing to see here.

[Heather]

If it wasn't for Eric cracking and saying, telling the therapist, I don't know that they would have figured it out.

[Mary Payne]

I don't know.

[Heather]

Because it had been months and, you know, because the dad was kind of a character and in Hollywood and music and, you know, there's, there's people, there's young men that said they were part of Menudo.

[Mary Payne]

Menudo, yeah.

[Heather]

In which they were also raped and assaulted by.

[Mary Payne]

By him.

[Heather]

By him.

It seemed like it was like a mafioso type of a hit. And I think they made it look that way too. Like that's also what went in with the planning. So I just don't know that they were. They. Yeah, they didn't really. And that was another one where they had written the movie script. Remember the movie script?

[Mary Payne]

Yes.

[Heather]

He'd written Eric about. Had written a killing script about. Yeah. Two brothers who kill their rich parents.

[Mary Payne]

Listen, a lot of the cases that we talk about, you know, are just people that are dumb.

[Heather]

The other thing I was thinking is, you know, he says he was being, you know, raped by the dad, Eric, the whole time. And then he was like, got into ucla and that he was like, great, I can go live in the dorms at ucla.

[Mary Payne]

Yeah.

[Heather]

And then the dad was like, no, you're not. You're gonna stay here, you know, so I can continue to rape you or whatever. And that's when Eric was like, oh, my God. Like, there's no ending it. And, you know, you. You already got in. Like, you could go and forget about money from your parents and get financial aid and work and be free. But I get why someone would say no. You're so under the control. You don't think about that.

[Mary Payne]

Yeah, I don't think that he had that.

[Heather]

I don't think Eric would have done it without Lyle. I think it was Lyle's plan.

[Mary Payne]

Yeah. And I don't think Eric. I don't think any of them had the wherewithal to think, like, how can I make my own money? Because they were just used to being given everything.

[Heather]

So I remember when they were stealing from the other houses in Calabasas.

[Mary Payne]

Yeah. Just like. Because they could probably. For a thrill.

[Heather]

Yeah.

[Mary Payne]

That movie was that made for tv? Movie was so good. With Chloe Sevignier. It was really good.

[Heather]

Oh, that was the Ryan Murphy.

[Mary Payne]

The Ryan Murphy.

[Heather]

Yeah, it was great.

[Mary Payne]

I never watch Ryan Murphy stuff because I'm always scared. Yeah, it's always scary. But that was really good. It was really well done.

[Heather]

Yeah. We just. Apparently Sarah Paulson, he's gonna do the alien story, and she's gonna play her.

[Mary Payne]

Breaking news. Yeah, I did not know that. Yeah, that'll be really good. Sarah Paulson can do anything.

[Heather]

But do you feel like you need to see it again after you've watched the doc and the. And the movie? Is there still more to it that you would. That he could do?

[Mary Payne]

Yeah, I think that the documentary that just came out, I didn't think it was well done at all. It had a lot of, like, stock footage of, like, Daytona beach and stuff. I was like, what? Huh? It was just a lot of, like, people, like, still footage of kids playing in the backyard. I go, is this her? What does this have to do with anything, really? They should have really focused on the prison interviews that she did. And by the way, all the men in that documentary all just. All talked about how ugly she was. Like, A hooker only a mom could love. I mean, just the worst, horrible thing. God, she's so ugly. I mean, the people on the news talking about how ugly she was, and I was like, God, you know, I thought she could use the Invisalign. She would have been cuter. It was just. She had bad teeth, but it was terrible.

[Heather]

How old was she? Do you recall when she was elected?

[Mary Payne]

35, but looked 65.

[Heather]

Right.

[Mary Payne]

I mean, it was a hard 35.

[Heather]

Right, because you're not taking care of yourself. You're out in the elements.

[Mary Payne]

Yes.

[Heather]

You're, like, living on the street.

[Mary Payne]

You know, she had years and years of, you know, drug and alcohol abuse. And she had just found love with this woman whose name was Tanya or something. Yeah, Tania, Tanya. She had just found love with this woman. And then they, you know, another thing they tried to say, the documentary was, she never killed anybody until she met this woman. Tyra was her name. She never met anybody until she met Tyra. I was like, well, maybe she had something to. I don't know who she finally had love in her life. And she was like, these guys that are trying to rape me all the time. I'm just trying to go and get 20 bucks for a blow job or whatever.

[Heather]

I mean, then with us being a serial killer, it's like, I do think once you do it once.

[Mary Payne]

Oh, well, that was easy.

[Heather]

Yeah.

[Mary Payne]

Yeah.

[Heather]

Really? Yeah. Like that guy. Yeah, yeah.

[Mary Payne]

Tell him to mess with me.

[Heather]

And she did get the electric chair, right?

[Mary Payne]

She did, she did. And a lot of the people that you know were her advocates and stuff. You know, the weirdest thing about that documentary? She'd eat last meal. No, she wouldn't eat a last meal. The weirdest thing about the documentary that I didn't know.

[Heather]

She didn't want one or they didn't offer.

[Mary Payne]

She didn't want one. She wasn't interested that there was this weird evangelical couple that had adopted her. Did you know about this?

[Heather]

No.

[Mary Payne]

They adopted her. They were like, her same age. They said they just always. The woman was like, I always wanted to be a mother. I just always wanted to be a mother. And so I just saw her on TV and I thought, she needs saving. And Eileen did. She got saved in prison.

[Heather]

And I wonder if that happens with people, too, that it's not a romantic thing and they adopt like an adult.

[Mary Payne]

She adopted somebody like her same age. It was so weird.

[Heather]

Same age that wasn't even an older woman.

[Mary Payne]

She was probably also in her 30s and was like, I just always wanted to be A mother. And she. I saw her on TV and she was trying to get a book deal and, you know, get the rights to all her interviews and everything, and was.

[Heather]

Like, claim that's why she's doing it.

[Mary Payne]

It was really something.

[Heather]

Like, people that wanted to adopt the little dwarf girl. The little Ukrainian dwarf. Remember that?

[Mary Payne]

Yes. What's her name?

[Heather]

Natalia.

[Mary Payne]

Grace.

[Heather]

That was one of those TV shows that, like, I. Every week I'd watch it, like, on Hulu, and it was basically, like, from different perspectives.

[Mary Payne]

Yes.

[Heather]

And then. Then one day, like, I just stopped. Like, I never got to the end.

[Mary Payne]

Well, they kept putting out more seasons. I was like, what else can we learn? She had a crazy father. No.

[Heather]

But then they did a scripted show.

[Mary Payne]

Oh, I didn't watch the scripted one.

[Heather]

I watched the scripted one because I.

[Mary Payne]

Was like, this is probably going to be inappropriate.

[Heather]

Yeah.

[Mary Payne]

For lots of reasons.

[Heather]

I think that in her case, I do think she was old, older.

[Mary Payne]

You do?

[Heather]

I do think she did weird things.

[Mary Payne]

You do?

[Heather]

Yeah, and I do. But I also think the mom was awful and had adopted her and was like, what the did I do?

[Mary Payne]

And then the dad was such a weirdo wannabe theater kid.

[Heather]

Right.

[Mary Payne]

Always acting.

[Heather]

And then I think then the couple that found her wanted her for her benefits and everything. And I think they also then screwed her over.

[Mary Payne]

Yeah.

[Heather]

And I still think she's lying about her age, but I think. Yeah, I think that whenever they just told her, like, say you're 8, and she was like, okay. I do think if you really are, like, living in an orphanage and you don't really know your age, you might. And that's why. And put her as a second language, too.

[Mary Payne]

So, like, put her in that apartment and we're like, good luck. She was like, nine, and they put her in that little apartment. Remember, they'd go visit her.

[Heather]

Well, even if she wasn't 9, even if she was, whatever, 20, she was totally handicapped physically.

[Mary Payne]

She could live there.

[Heather]

And also, it was just by herself and didn't really know how to care for herself. And didn't you have to be taught that, you know.

Terrible.

[Mary Payne]

And. I don't know. I've never been able to understand the whole age thing, but whatever. She was treated terribly by those people. How do we get from Chris Watts to Natalia Grace?

[Heather]

That's what I was saying. We were just talking about lots of things, but. Well, thank you so much for coming. Tell everybody your podcast if they're not aware, and when it drops and all.

[Mary Payne]

Of that, it is Pink Shade podcast. And on the free feed. It goes Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, we talk about TLC shows. Like I said, the trashier the better. Thursdays, I do elevate a little bit and talk about Bravo and. And then, of course, we have, you know, subscription services like Everybody, Patreon, Apple, Supercast, all that, where we do more TLC stuff, documentary stuff, like. Stuff like this I love to talk about. Yeah, it's Pink Shade. Follow me on Instagram. Inkshadepod. I'm always out here begging for Instagram followers.

[Heather]

Okay, good. Well, thank you. Thanks for coming all the way out here. Bye.

[Monet X Change]

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