← Juicy Crimes with Heather McDonald
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- [00:02]
Giovanni Rocco
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- [00:58]
Karina Beemersdurfer
Hi, I'm Karina Beemersdurfer, host of Morning cup of Murder, your daily true crime podcast. Yes, you heard me right. Daily true crime. Everyday Morning cup of Murder tells you a straightforward short form story about murder, true crime, cold cases, disappearances, serial killers, cults and more. And I do that all in under 15 minutes. With over three years of stories and over 20 million downloads, the Morning cup of Murder podcast has become a staple of so many people's daily routines. So why not add it to yours? Stream Morning cup of Murder everywhere you listen to podcasts and remember, stay safe.
- [01:52]
Heather
Hello and welcome to Juicy Crimes. I'm very excited to talk to our guest, Giovanni Rocco, former FBI undercover informant who took down major mob families. One being the one that was the inspiration for the Sopranos. And I know you've written a book, Giovanni's Ring. You have a podcast and inside the life. Welcome to Juicy Crimes.
- [02:19]
Giovanni Rocco
Thank you Heather. Thanks for having me.
- [02:21]
Heather
I mean, I'm very excited. I have so many questions. I've always loved seeing movies where there is an undercover cop, FBI detective. And I've always wondered, how does that even begin? Like, so you, you joined the, the force and then they say we're gonna create this whole other life for you so that people actually think that you're one of them. Like tell me how that began.
- [02:49]
Giovanni Rocco
Yeah, I mean sometimes it is that simple, right? For me it was. I'm third generation police, so my undercover escapade started at a young age. My dad was a detective in a city. I grew up in an area in Hudson County. And he used to send me up the street to get license plates from bikers and guys that had shop shops like, you know, that were stealing cars and flipping them and changing the bins. So he would send me up on my bicycle with my friends and my brother. I'd write down a license plate and bring it back to him. So I started at a young age, so I had the thrill for it, right? Starsky and Hutch was big when I was the kid growing up. And, you know, so Hill Street Blues, it's, you know, a lot of your, the kids today wouldn't know what that is, but it's an old police like, like nypd. What Blue Bloods is today was Hill Street Blues when I was growing up. So they had some undercover roles and those in those types of shows. And it was always the draw, the sexiness of it, right? Because it was the crazy guy or girl that stood out from all the others. So that was the draw that I had to it. And growing up in the street, I mean, I, I understood the street. I had a good understanding before I became a police officer. So when I did become a police officer in a city, I was a uniform cop. And then I quickly rose to the rank of detective and went into narcotics. And that's when I started doing undercover.
- [04:01]
Heather
Work now, you know, like in the, in the mob world, like the famous mobile movies, you know, when Diane Keaton reveals in a Godfather 2, like, I don't want to have another child with you because I don't want them to be sucked into this mob world with your third generation police work, Was there anyone in your family that was like, maybe I don't want my son doing this dangerous job?
- [04:27]
Giovanni Rocco
That's a great question, Heather. I don't think anybody's ever asked me that. I guess my dad kind of. He wanted me to be a police officer. We're a proud police family. I was the black sheep of my family. I was the kid always being put in detention in school, being suspended. I think I had my first detention in kindergarten, my first suspension in first grade. That's the kind of kid I was. I'm not proud of it.
- [04:49]
Heather
But what were you doing at 5 and 6 to get in trouble? I'm just curious.
- [04:53]
Giovanni Rocco
Picking fights, standing out, wanting to be the standout kid, the class clown. I wasn't a, I wasn't a bully. I was just trying to be in the thick of it, you know, and that kind of spilled over into my law enforcement career. So my dad being, being a police family it wasn't expected of it, but we were. They were proud of me when I became one, when my brother became one of my uncles. So it wasn't. It wasn't expected of us. But I think my mother and father, there was a. There was a breath of fresh air because I was on my way to prison, dead or in jail by 25. Not proud of that. But, yeah, I was a bad kid. I was hanging with the wrong bunch. I barely made it out of high school. I write about it, my book, to inspire others who might be in those shoes, who might think less of themselves at the time, you know, to think there is more to life. There are other things. All you have to do is set your sights on something. You could have any goal you want. It's up to you and achieve to achieve it. That's the way I went into it. My dad did, however, tell me when I became a police officer, when they offered me a gold shield, I was hungry for narcotics. I was hungry.
- [05:57]
Heather
Gold shield means we want you to.
- [05:58]
Giovanni Rocco
Go undercover detective, just to be a detective. Okay, so you're brought out of patrol from a patrolman in a police car, maybe walking to beat walk, working in a sector, to having a gold shield and having a detective shield. So I wanted to be a narcotic shop. And my dad said, listen, you're worth more than that. Don't be a narcotics cop. You know, he kind of looked down on narcs, as they call them. He said, look, be a detective, be a suit, be a homicide, a special case, an investigator. You know, be a guy. But I also had exposure to that along the way. So when there was a homicide or. Because the area I worked in, Hudson county, cartels, were really big. You know, that Scarface era, the Colombian cartels and Mexican cartels were heavily influenced. There was murders and, you know, brutal slaughters of families and home invasions every single week. So you were catching homicides on top of working narcotics. So I dipped my toes in narcotics, and I got the sexiness for it and the taste for it of the adrenaline, the thrill of the hunt, the chase. But then I also had the both sides. Where I was an investigator, I was able to put my brain to work trying to, you know, solve crimes, burglaries, thefts, auto thefts, big auto theft rings back in the day in the Newark area. So, you know, we had a bunch of different crimes. If you named it, I worked it. But I was always drawn to narcotics because I was given that opportunity to work undercover.
- [07:18]
Heather
So how do the hours work when you're undercover. Like, that's what I always wondered, like, how does it work? How does that work with your. What you're getting paid and then you're like, living this whole other life and does your personal girlfriend or whatever know about it or don't know about it?
- [07:37]
Giovanni Rocco
Yeah, I think, you know, early in my career when I was working local police to say, you told everybody, right? When you, when you worked a. A juicy undercover job, you told everybody about it, you bragged about it, you were given awards, you were given in public. You know, Memorial Day came and they handed out awards and you were given a ribbon to put on your uniform because you did some special thing. And they would. They would highlight it and tell everybody what a great job you did. As I advanced in my career and I went from local to state to federal, federal is more. We hide in the shadows, right? I would tell my significant others along the way, they knew what I did. Of course, my, My spouse would know what I did. My kids, not so much. My kids I left in the dark because they were too young to understand. I always explained to them dare was big back then. So I'd say, you know, when you start going to dare class, we'll have a conversation on what dad does, you know. So I never really told him too much. Some people, when I met them, they maybe played on both sides of the fence, and I thought maybe they would out me and, you know, expose my cover. So I didn't tell people too much after I got to the federal level because again, you're going from doing corners, corner roll ups, which are like nickel and dime bags of cocaine, heroin, marijuana. Quick hits, right? You know, roll ups, they're just as dangerous, though, because back in the day when Gatorade bottles were made of glass, I often had one smashed on my head for buying from the wrong dealer. Because I went to four corners of an intersection. I went to the northwest corner and bought my dope. And then I would go to leave, and a kid from the southwest corner, he wanted me to sell, you know, buy his dope so they would. You had to get out quick because this world of treachery that it was, you can. You can be robbed. As soon as you made your way around the corner, they're looking to rob you and steal that dope or, you know, get revenge for you spending money on another corner. So it was really treacherous. So you had to be real careful. So, yeah. So as I advanced into the DEA from the local and state level, I was a little more hidden about what I did.
- [09:37]
Heather
And so then how. So get to like, when you did have to like. So did you pretend to be part of this mafioso crime family?
- [09:47]
Giovanni Rocco
Yeah. Later on in my career, when I became a full time undercover, which there are not many full time people, like I did later in my career when I tell you, you know, there's a. There's maybe a handful of us within the FBI then I was trained to be an FBI undercover. When I received that training, you went to specialized training. You received very intense training. Human behavior, human interaction, really, you know, emotional intelligence, just different levels of communication, body language, how to read people in a room, how to control the environment you're in. That's a game changer. But it's pure exhaustion because when you're in a room with killers, you never knew what was going to pop off, when it was going to pop off. So at that level, we were just, we were on all the time. You know, I went from. I very rarely went to the FBI division that I worked in. I was in the New Jersey division. I very rarely went to the field office. I would go to a warehouse. I'd be real careful on how my speech changed. Cops referred to each other as brother. I never referred to each somebody as my brother. Or in the street, I would call an officer if I got pulled over for speeding. I would call him, you know, boss, hey, boss. Because that's when an inmate calls a CEO, a corrections officer. That's when an inmate would. An ex con would call a policeman, you know, and you're pretending.
- [11:05]
Heather
And you're pretending to be.
- [11:06]
Giovanni Rocco
You did. You did.
- [11:09]
Karina Beemersdurfer
This episode is brought to you by cars.com on cars.com you can shop over 2 million cars. That means over 2 million new car possibilities. Like making space for your growing family. Becoming the type of person who takes spontaneous weekend camping trips or upgrading your commute wherever life takes you next or whoever you're looking to be. There's a car for that on cars.com visit cars.com to discover your next possibility. This episode is brought to you by Rakuten. Are you scouring the web for the best Black Friday and Cyber Monday deals? Stop it. Get Rakuten. Rakuten is a shopping sidekick that gets you cash back on gifts for everyone on your list. Right now, you can get up to 15 cash back at the stores you love, stacked on top of the biggest sales of the year. That's savings. On savings, cash back is automatically added to your account and you can get paid with gift cards, PayPal or check or eligible American Express card members can choose to earn membership rewards points. Now's the time to join. Up to 15% cash back ends on December 2nd. Plus new members will receive a welcome bonus after minimum qualifying purchases. Just go to rakuten.com, download the app, or install the browser extension. Terms and conditions apply.
- [12:22]
Heather
So, I mean, this is, like. It's funny that you said you were the class clown, because, you know, obviously you're acting as an undercover agent. You are acting. You have a backstory. I mean, you're basically doing everything that you would, like, learn in theater school, except, like, so how did you create, like, what your backstory was so that they would never suspect you?
- [12:46]
Giovanni Rocco
Well, yeah, you're. That's a whole nother level. At the end of my career, I had five different identities, five different Social Security numbers, five different dates of birth, credit history. So depending on what case I was working, I'd be. I would develop my legend. We call it a legend. So my legend was whoever I decided to be that day. It was Giovanni Rocco. It was Giovanni Gatto. One. I had. I think one of my identities was John Franco, you know, and they were all chosen by me for reasons. You know, I had a reason to pick those names. That's how deep it is. You just don't go, ah, today I want to be John Smith. You know, because if your name is Michael and you walk into a room and they're calling, John, Hey, John. Hey, John, they're waiting for you to turn around, and you're not turning around because your name is Michael, in your true life, you know, you have to really give it that much thought. So you have to be real careful. You have to know your. How to spell your last name. You have to remember your Social Security number. You know, just going without even being live. We call it going live when you meet a bad person. You know, when you meet a criminal. But even when you're traveling and you go through TSA and maybe somebody stops and asks your date of birth or as you spell your last name, you have to be on all the time. You have to be ready. So it was. It's. It's very, very mentally draining. And the legend, you have to remember where you come from. So if I ask you, Heather, where you lived when you were 12 years old, you can tell me instantly. Well, I had five different identities, so depending on who I was, if somebody asked me, where'd you live when you were 12 years old? I better be ready to answer that. And especially in this day and age where they can look you up in computers and Google.
- [14:14]
Heather
Yeah, I was gonna say, I wonder if doing this is like so much harder now that like, you know, you know. Well, we can see that. You know, like if it was like a 35 year old going to do this, now they have an Internet history from when they were 16 at the prom. Da da da da. And they would, someone would, if they were suspicious, be like, you know, your dad was a cop.
- [14:38]
Giovanni Rocco
Yeah.
- [14:39]
Heather
Why are you now acting like you're, you know, a gangster? So. So do you know how they do deal with it now or.
- [14:46]
Giovanni Rocco
Yeah, I mean, we always advance, right? Like, we're always one step ahead. We have to be. The government's always one step ahead. We're trying to stay ahead of things. We don't give up tradecraft. But, you know, biometrics is very hard. It was hard when I was still operational, going in and out of different countries. They would capture your biometrics, your facial recognition, when you were in their airport. Even though the US didn't do it, there were other countries that were capturing your identity. So you had to be real careful. Because if I went through as Giovanni Gatto and then I traveled to that same region in Europe or wherever it was that had facial recognition, well, guess what? They could red flag me and then they pull me to the side, and then they can interrogate you and ask you. They do what's called secondary. You get pulled into another room. So you had to be real careful. But technology changes. When I started working undercover, they gave us what was the size of like a little notepad or a VCR tape. You stuck that in your pants, and that was your recording device today. Listen, you could put the micro. You could put the recorder on ahead of a pen. It's so small nowadays, you know, you would never find it.
- [15:45]
Heather
So, okay, so let's get into like, how do you infiltrate and become friends with these guys and gain their trust?
- [15:54]
Giovanni Rocco
Yeah, I mean, it's kind of. So you're, you're, you're asking as an undercover or a covert operative. You're asking to immerse yourself in a world where it's utter treachery. Murderers, mayhem, people who are not above board. You're not walking into a. You know, if you're doing criminal work, if you're doing cartel work, murder for hires, you're going in knowing that there's people who are looking to steal from you, rob you, maybe set you up, and the deal might not even happen. So before you go in, ingratiation is everything, right? Just like when you go to a. A Christmas party, right? And you know, you go and your spouse takes you or significant other takes you to a party. You're walking into a room full of strangers. Well, how do you do it? You ingratiate yourself. It is that easy. But with the gangsters, you don't want to come on like a gangster. You don't want to come on like a murder and mayhem type of person. You want to come in easy and you want to just like, you know, it's human behavior, one on one. You know, I'm not going to show up at my wife's Christmas party for her company and be this loud, boisterous gangster guy. You know, I'm going to be me. I'm going to be smooth. I'm going to be. Wait to introduce. So it's kind of the same thing. But then when they find out you're worth something, then they get your claws into you. See, in the underworld, greed is everything. Money rules all. In the underworld, money rules everything. Greed is the force that drives the treachery. So you have to be careful. So again, it's everything we're trained for. The human intelligence and the interaction, the conversations. You have to remember every conversation you had with somebody and what you said. Because a number or a suggestion you make, you agree on a price. That's the price. You can't go back and change it. That'll get you killed. So you're always on pins and needles, Heather. Always imagine always being so stressed out that you're waiting for the other shoe to drop. You're waiting to find out, is today the day they're going to think I'm a cop? Is today today they think I'm a federal agent. Is somebody do I walk in this room and I have. If you read my book in chapter one, I touch on that. I went to a meeting with the Gambino crime family. And as I'm standing there in an auto body shop, they mentioned they referenced a guy named Kyle. And I was there when Kyle was arrested as an FBI agent. We processed him in the FBI field office. And I just. I sat there, took a big, you know, big good old swallow, controlled my breathing. And here comes Kyle walking through the door. And they introduced me. And I just said a prayer to God that he wouldn't recognize me because there's no way I was getting out of there at that time. And he just hope for the best. You know, you think to yourself, and what?
- [18:26]
Heather
He didn't. He didn't recognize you?
- [18:28]
Giovanni Rocco
He didn't. He didn't because he was walking into a room and he was a capable guy. He was a shooter. He did, you know, he did a lot of time for violent crimes and thank God, but by the grace of God, he just, he, he was introduced to me and the way I was introduced, that I was a capable guy, I was at his level or above. He was very intimidated by the other guys in the room, so he kind of stayed in his place. It's almost like taking your dog to the dog park. I hate to reference, I hate to make that kind of a reference, but when you walk in, you know, you take your dog and you, you go into a yard with a bunch of other dogs and there's a sniff test, right? And that determines how everybody's going to get along. Some days it's good, some days it's bad.
- [19:06]
Heather
So I've always, I'm so curious, like with the whole, you know, and it's been such a fascinating genre of film, the Italian American, the mafiosis in that they were lived, you know, this normal looking family, you know, they like the nicer things in life. They're very hospitable. Like you want to be invited to their Seven Fishes party and all that. I'm not Italian, I'm Irish. But like, I'm always been very fascinated by it and, and then being Catholic like that, they were Catholic and you have to be baptized. And I'm like, but they're murdering people. Like, what is, how do they justify what they do and then still walk around and be so charming?
- [19:50]
Giovanni Rocco
Well, that's, that's the treachery that they live, right? That's the life that they chose there. They often remind you, the gangsters themselves, criminals, they'll remind you silently sometimes, but sometimes when they're in front of their family, you look at them and you say, wow, what a good daddy is. He's. I've seen it. I've been in their house breaking bread with them. I've been with Irish gangsters. That is all gangsters are similar, right? Irish gangsters, Italian gangsters, it's all the same. Culturally, you know, the culture is different, but yet they're so similar. So again, some of my names are Irish. If I went in as an Irish guy, you know, you see these loving fathers, you see these loving families. But then when the door is closed and you have a quiet meeting inside and then the families in the other room, you see this, this darkness fall over them or their eyes change and they literally turn into another person when their family isn't around, you know, and it's just. Some guys, it's just business. Other gangsters are just really good guys that are tied up in this world of treachery, and they're not murderers. Not everybody is a murderer, okay? Not everybody is. What you see in the Godfather, that's not all the time. Killing and. And murder and burying bodies. That's not what it is. Later in my career, during the Decapacante case, yes, I had a lot of that because it was murder and mayhem. But a lot of gangsters are just guys that. I could have been a gangster, Heather. If I didn't graduate high school and I didn't go the way I did and become a police officer, chances are I could easily wound up in the underworld as a criminal. But I chose not to. So these guys, they chose to take the easy route. They choose not to pay their taxes. Other guys just, you know, the guys that I was in the mafia with, the bosses, they real really quickly would load me to sleep sometimes because I saw what a good person they were. And then two seconds later, they would. They would just morph into this gangster Persona and just be like, so when are you going to kill this guy? Because I had. I was given a test to kill two guys, and then ultimately just one. But they were asking me, okay, you know, and you could see them seething and enjoying the moment and how. I would make them describe, how do you want. Want him to die? And they would go into detail. I wanted to die violently. I wanted. I want. Matter of fact, I don't even want you to kill him right away. I want him to suffer. I'll put him in a wheelchair, throw acid in his face, and blind them. You know, I want him to suffer so bad. And they would show you these moments of. And you go, okay, thank you for reminding me what an animal you are, what a gangster and a. And a horrible. Sometimes a horrible human being some of these guys are. And this is what drives you to continue the case. They often will remind you.
- [22:23]
Heather
So. And why we're, you know, in the Sopranos, it was always that someone had to go because, you know, they weren't loyal, or they were, like, double dipping, or maybe they were becoming an informant. Like, what is it in the family? Why they would have to kill someone that's worked for them for 20, 30 years?
- [22:46]
Giovanni Rocco
It depends on the sociopath you're dealing with. I dealt with a guy. Not in this case. Excuse me. In another case, he was sitting, having dinner with his crew, a guy down the end of the table kept sneezing and it bothered him so much, he goes, what's with the sneezing? Why is this guy down the other end? And he knew him and they were all with him in his crew, and he goes, what's. He keeps sneezing. He goes, I don't know, boss. I guess he got allergies or. I don't know if he has a cold or something. He said earlier he had allergies. It annoyed the boss of the family so much, he goes, I can't have that. Look at this guy down there. He's sneezing all night, wiping his nose. It's disgraceful. By that night, they walked him out the back and they killed him. Now that's very extreme.
- [23:32]
Heather
Wait, was that the. What was it called? The D Avante? What's the.
- [23:36]
Giovanni Rocco
No, that wasn't a decapit. That was not the decal. That was a different crime family, years ago investigation.
- [23:42]
Heather
But that sounds very Tony Soprano. Like, that's very Tony. Yeah.
- [23:47]
Giovanni Rocco
And there's, you know. And again, you mentioned the Sopranos. That's why my book is called, you know, my Life inside the Real Sopranos. That case particularly. I watched the Sopranos, but yet I investigated the decavacantes for 15, 20 years as an investigator, I worked organized crime. I work vice. I would go and cover the funerals and may guys and just do investigations. But I would sit there and I would look at all the players and I would look at the members of the Decapacantes, the Gambinos, the Genovese, you know, the other five families, and take pictures of them. Now I'm on the inside now. When I was introduced to somebody, it was like, oh, I know this guy. I took pictures of him 15 years ago. Oh, wow, I know this guy. He's a boss of the family now, you know, so it was very Soprano esque. The pork store, if you watch the Sopranos, if you know anything about it, the neighborhood, the. The New Jersey faction versus the New York faction. I had the case that I worked.
- [24:43]
Karina Beemersdurfer
We.
- [24:43]
Giovanni Rocco
We gleaned a lot of intelligence and we showed how the families work together very closely together. So it was very Soprano esque, which was harder because again, I write about in a book where James Gandolfini passed away while I was infiltrating his family and the HBO series was being played over and over and over in homage and as a memorial to him in remembrance of. Of Gandolfini. And here I was trying to decompress in my undercover apartments. And every time you turn the TV on, it seemed the news was covering it or the HBO was playing another episode. So it was like it never turned off for me. It was so draining. So.
- [25:18]
Heather
And when like what I always find, what I, I love about the movies is like, you know, it's sexy. Like the, the macho of the Italian gangster. The protectiveness of the girlfriend is sexy. Who then becomes the wife, even though they're cheating and they're killing people. Like I see why women like that, like protectiveness. Do the women always, do they, do they always know that their husband or boyfriend is doing that? Or do they sometimes really think they have a regular job in sanitation and work together in like car sales?
- [25:58]
Giovanni Rocco
Like what do they sometimes. Yeah, it's. It's both, right? You hit them both on it. It's a double edged sword. Some I have witnessed that. And again, you know, some of the guys, some of the wives I was around, they were more gangster than their husbands. It was harder for me to infiltrate the spouse or the paramour or the girlfriend or the wife than it was to infiltrate the gangster. You know, I would meet a gangster and because I was a, I was a foreigner, you know, I was, wasn't from the family. I didn't grow up in the neighborhood. The women would be like, I don't like that Giovanni, I don't know who he is, a nice kid, I like the way he looks, but I just something about him, I don't like him. And their spidey senses was so on. But I had to win them over more than I had to win the mobsters over. You know, they were more work than the husbands. Other times I, the wives and the spouses, girlfriends, they had no idea, you know, they thought that he got up like you said, got a 9 to 5, had a union job, went and worked, you know, did this, did that. And they thought, yeah, he just goes out and he, yeah, he gambles, he does some things on the side, but you know, he provides a good life for me. She has no idea. She had no idea whatsoever. So much. So I was taking a meeting probably three times a week with a member of another crime family. And we would sit in his car and I'm in a Best Buy. We had lunch and we're parked near a Best Buy and he and I, he says, you know what? Jump in the car. We'll finish talking in the car. Let's not stand out here because the feds are going to be taking pictures of us. They see us because we were both from two different families. So we jump inside. His Mercedes windows are tinted. So we're sitting there talking, and we just had lunch, so we're having a nice conversation, and this white Lexus pulls up and out jumps a woman dressed to the nine, looking like somebody out of Mob Wires. Right, the series. And she jumps out and he gets this look on his face like, oh, my God. He leans back. She runs around, starts smashing her rings into the window and tries ripping the door open. Open the door. And she's cursing at him. Open the door. She thinks he's in the car with another woman. Can't see him because the tent is, you know, see, the tent is so dark. And she goes absolutely ballistic. And she's screaming in this parking lot and thinking, I caught him. I finally caught him cheating on me. And she. And he opens the door and she lunges over to attack me. She does. She's. She's so seeing red so much she doesn't even know it's a male. And he starts screaming, whoa, whoa, what are you doing? It's Giovanni. Giovanni's in the car with me. And she settles down, she goes, oh, I thought. I. I thought you were cheating on me with another woman. I thought you had her in the car again. I guess they had a history of it. My point is, you never knew what was going to happen in any given day, in any given moment. I'm worried about guys whacking me out. I'm worried about this guy whacking me out. Never in a million years did I think this girl would come over and start banging on the window, causing the seen. God forbid the cops show up. Now they see the two of us together. It sounds like a silly story, but in my world, when you're infiltrating, you don't ever want to be. You don't want to be involved with stuff like that. So you never know what you're going to find. So the women, some of them knew, some of them didn't.
- [28:58]
Heather
And did you ever, in all your undercover, have to have, like, another female agent act undercover, like girlfriend, sister of yours or whatever?
- [29:09]
Giovanni Rocco
Yeah, I did. Multiple times. I did. I did. And again, it's a lot to carry, right? You're. You're. You're infiltrating and you're just. You're. The art of deception is yours. I can My. It's a trade craft and it's not acting right, but it's very similar for people to understand. You were right when you said that. It is a certain amount of acting, but it's the Art of deception. You are really deceiving people. And, and so it's hard enough to do it on your own. Now if I, you and I are undercover together and we go to a party and they separate the two of us and you forget what our legend is, how we met, where we met, and you start telling a different story and I start telling, you know, it can get really ugly really fast. So. Or maybe they break you and I didn't know it. You know, now all of a sudden you're overcoming your emotions or maybe mine. It's very violent. It's a violent environment. So for me, I never wanted to put a female in that position. I worked with some really great undercover females, my wife being one. Right. She did it also and she was great at it. I met a lot of women that were killer at it, but it's hard enough. So what I did in this particular case, my last case, I decided I did have a girlfriend. Nobody ever met her. Now that's when you know you're good at your trade craft, when you can go three years and the targets, the people I was dealing with actually had conversations with my girlfriend, Nikki was her name. And they would have full on conversations through me. Never once get on a phone with her. They knew she existed. She was on my screensaver. Like when my phone rang or alert, came over a text, you would see the two of us on my phone. But they never introduced, they were never, she was never brought into the case. So wow. Yet. Yet they had conversations. They would send us Christmas cards to Giovanni and Nikki, you know, Merry Christmas, Happy Thanksgiving. You know, just send us all this stuff and send us gifts and yeah, crazy. The world moves fast. Your workday even faster. Pitching products, drafting reports, analyzing data. Microsoft 365 Copilot is your AI assistant for work built into Word, Excel, PowerPoint and other Microsoft 365 apps you use, helping you quickly write, analyze, create and summarize so you can cut through clutter and clear a path to your best work. Learn more@Microsoft.com M365 copilot@ Etsy we know the holidays are already exciting, but we can't help adding joy to the season. Get up to 60% off gifts from small shops with Etsy Cyber specials. Terms apply for gifts that say I get you shop Etsy.
- [31:45]
Heather
And then was there ever a moment where they're like, where they, where one of them is like, I think you're an informant and they didn't kill you, but they were like letting you know like they're on to you, and you better, like, get the.
- [31:58]
Giovanni Rocco
Away now. They weren't. They weren't on to me. They suspected something was up. So when I started this decapacante case, the Mafia case, they knew that they were being looked at. They knew there was a. There was a law enforcement leak. And we knew early into the case because one of the bad guys told me I already made my. My relationship with him. I was going to the social club. I was dropping stuff off. I had a lot of knockoff stuff, stuff that was counterfeit, like Gucci, Prada, Louis Vuitton. I had all this good stuff that I was selling in the street, and he was buying from me, and then I was buying drugs in return. And then one day he said to me, in his. In his social club, you know, the bulls are looking at us. The police. The cops are looking at us. And it's kind of weird, you know, because we got information from the police. You know, there's a law enforcement leak. They're looking at us, and we don't know who's looking at us, whether it's the state, local, or feds, but we're being looked at. And I'm just saying, you're new. So I was like, what are you trying to say? You know? He goes, well, I'm just saying you're new. And then again, that's a moment when you got to step up because they're testing your wherewithal. So I. I challenged him, and I said, is this something you want to ask me? He said, no. I'm just saying, are you suspecting me to be something I'm not? And I didn't? You never want to use the word rat or informant. You never want to be the one to introduce into the conversation. But I said, is there something you want to ask me? Because I would ask me right now because I'm getting a little fed up with you. I'm not threatening you. I'm just letting you know it's bothering me. So real quick, he was like, no, Giovanni, I'm just saying, you're new around here. You know, you just got around. You just started coming around. Now we're being looked at. About two years later, the same guy, he. He tried to claim me. He tried to claim me for his crew. He was a me guy, and I didn't go on his crew. I didn't go with him. And he was really, really upset by it. He really wanted me to be with his crew. And I. I turned it down. And I was with my capo captain and he got really mad. So he challenged me one day and threatened to chop me up into pieces. So that was a tough day. That was a very. That was a draining gun.
- [34:05]
Heather
And how did you get out of not being chopped up?
- [34:08]
Giovanni Rocco
So I knew to sew certain things. You know, I said, I've got to read the book, so.
- [34:13]
Heather
So, okay, well, I want you to sell your book. So. And I'm going to read it, but okay, so how much can you tell me without giving?
- [34:20]
Giovanni Rocco
Yeah, I can tell you.
- [34:21]
Heather
I can tell you.
- [34:21]
Giovanni Rocco
So he. He challenged me one day. There's some things that happened before that. There was a mishap and a text was sent to him in the middle of a meeting, and it was sent by another associate of mine. So there was all these. These different dynamics going on in the family. The family was at war internally. I was on one faction, he was with another faction. So there was this bad relationship. Now a good relationship went really horribly wrong. So. And eventually he was the guy that I was supposed to kill. So he had said to me at a meeting, he tried calling me to a meeting, and when I got there, he was really, really upset. Now he's a made guy. He had been formally made as a member of the crime family, which. Now that changes the rules. I can't even touch him. I can't even poke him in the chest. I can't even grab him by the shirt because if I didn't, I put my hands on him as a made guy. That's. That's a call for death. My. My own boss couldn't even save my life if he deter. If he said, I want Giovanni dead, you know, the administration can rule against me and they would have to kill me.
- [35:20]
Heather
So it's like, because someone goes to the next level. Okay, yeah, yeah.
- [35:25]
Giovanni Rocco
It's like a promotion, right? You know, when you're a made guy. When you're a made guy, it's one thing, right? You're an associate, which we were. And then he became a made guy. And then there's another level of being a captain. It's very much like military. And so he made the level of a made guy soldier. And then my boss was a captain, so he had. He had rank over him. And then the administration was the boss and the underboss. So, yeah, that day he kind of like called me out on it and said, look, you know, again, he made the reference of me. Some things happened. He accused me of being bad, you know, and he said, look, either two things. One, you're a Rat. And then that's when I went to lunge at him. And I knew I wasn't going to put my hands on him. I said, what did you say? Oh, he said to me, you're wearing either one. You're wearing a wire, right? You're a rat and you're wearing a wire. And I open up my jacket, and I went to show him. Go ahead. You want to check me? Go ahead. Now, he was. He had a gun in his pocket, and I knew he was armed, and he had it on his. He had his. In his hand the whole time in his pocket. And he took a step back from me, and I said, do you? Go ahead, check me? And he goes, or. Or. Listen to you, Bonnie, or. Because you knew I was becoming aggressive towards him again. Or you're being watched and you brought the bulls to us as if to say, you're being followed by the cops and you brought the heat to us, and that's why they're watching us. So I quickly remedied that by, you know, challenging him again, understanding human intelligence and emotional communication. I kind of quelled it and put it out, you know, put it to bed, and then quickly put it back to business, saying, hey, look, we always. We always work well together. I don't know what you have. You have this problem with me. I don't know what it is. You know, as if what you would do, one of your girlfriends or a guy would do with his buddy. I don't know what it is between me and you, but let's. Let's just put it to bed. Let's get back to making money. That's what we do good together. Let's get back to making money. And the minute you introduce green and money, it puts everything to bed, right? And he goes, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I just. It just bothered me, you know, I saw. All right, you said your piece. You're done with it. Can we go back to making money now? And he said, yeah, yeah, yeah. He says, well, you got any cigarettes? You know, because I was selling them cases of cigarettes. And I go, yeah, I get cigarettes. He goes, all right, you got the Marlboros, or you got. You got Newports? Nah, I don't have any. I got, like, cigarettes. I got, like, marble lights. You want them? You can have them. That's all I got. Like, I intentionally gave him the bottom of the barrel, the scraps that I had. And he goes, all right. At his same price, which was like 2700 a case or something. I go, no, no, no. The price went up and he left and he chuckled. And when I said the price went up, that saved my ass. Because in the street, that's what a real gangster would do. You challenged me. Challenge accepted. I taxed you. So when I taxed him extra money, he knew I was a gangster and he just let it go. So you have to be, you have to think that fast on your feet.
- [38:11]
Heather
So when it comes to like, okay, now you got the person arrested and it gets revealed that this guy that they're hanging out with for years, what is that? Like?
- [38:26]
Giovanni Rocco
That's tough. That's a hard one. That's probably, that's probably, probably some of the hardest emotional roller coasters I've had in my career. Right? Because of what you mentioned earlier, Heather. It wasn't the bad guys. Putting the bad guys in jail was my job. I never put a case on somebody that didn't deserve a case in my work. I always had great tapes against you. Right? You always. Nobody was ever set up. Nobody was ever, you know, we didn't lie on a stand, we didn't set you up, we didn't commit, you know, we didn't create evidence against you. It was your own words. Imagine three years worth of tapes, your own words. There's no getting out of that. So it was a different level. But for me, three years of meeting Heather and meeting all these other people and interacting with the good kids, all their kids, the kids were the hardest part. Uncle Giovanni. Uncle Giovanni. Coojin cousin, you know, hey, cuz. Hey, cousin. And they would really, you know, when they told you they loved you, like an Irish family welcomes you in, or Italian family welcomes you in, they don't. They, they soak you, they drown you with love, right? Culturally, they do. When you're welcomed into an Irish person or Italian person home, a German person, Most cultures are just. When you're welcomed into their house, man, you, you can, it's your home, right? That's how they make you feel. And in the end, that's where I felt like. I didn't put the grandfathers in jail, I didn't put their fathers in jail, I didn't put their husbands in jail. They did it, I didn't do it. But for me, I've never experienced that where it was like, man, now this 10 year old boy, his dad's not going to be with him for the next 10 to 20 years. Not because I did something wrong, but just because. You know what, I just feel bad because the kid was a good kid, you know, I made sure he had everything he needed for. For Thanksgiving, I made sure he had it. Even though the guy was committing crimes with me, I was running a crew at the end, my own crew. I would always make sure my crew was taking care of their kids. During Christmas, if they needed something, I gave them, you know, I made sure they had extra money. You know, we got an extra score. I gave them some extra counterfeit goods to sell to make sure they had. You know, make sure the kids get what they want. You know, one of my guys, his kids got hurt by a dog and got mauled by a pit bull. And it was in the hospital. I made sure, you know, here's some extra money. Here's some. Go take care of me. I'll do this, this, and this and that. That's the hard part, right? And again, these people telling you that they love you, I knew they truly meant it. So much so even the bad guys, when they got arrested, the FBI agents told me later on that went and made the arrests, you know, when we went to get him, the first thing he was doing was telling his girlfriend or telling his wife. Go in the other room and get my phone. Get my burner phone. Get my little flip phone. It says Giovanni on the back. Get it quick. Get rid of it. Call Giovanni. Tell him to run. Tell Giovanni to run. So they. Even when they were getting arrested, they were looking out for me. They didn't know I was the undercover yet, but, you know, just to show you the amount of loyalty they had towards me. So those moments, I wasn't prepared for, mentally. So to unplug from that three years, and then just to unplug was very, very difficult for me.
- [41:26]
Heather
So then they would never go to your house, or did you have, like, a fake house?
- [41:30]
Giovanni Rocco
So I had. I had fake. I had apartments at apartment in New York City. I had apartment in Vegas. They would come to my house often. So when you walked in my house, you. You were exposed. Like my. I write about him, my associate, another undercover, Dutch. You know, there were pictures of me in Dutch on my refrigerator. So when I made reference to him, you know, they knew, okay, there's the face to go with the name. And they made reference. He was real. My girl, you know, pictures, all of us, you know, all over, doing things. Weddings, christenings, parties, vacations.
- [41:59]
Heather
So you did like a whole photo shoot before setting up the house? Yeah, like a history.
- [42:04]
Giovanni Rocco
Yeah, I put a lot of work. I got 20, 25 years of doing this. I used to carry a Rubbermaid container, a big Rubbermaid container. Because depending on who I was and depending on how I wanted to stage my apartment, if I want you to think I was a junkie, I had prescription pillbox, you know, bottles all over the place with my name on it in case, you know, I leave the bathroom and you go all over the coffee table, you would see that I had a. I had an addiction problem or I had a pill problem, you know, So I literally had a Rubbermaid container just, you know, like, of props.
- [42:33]
Heather
So you're, like, doing this criminal activity and you're making money as the gangster, and so do you put that aside, and then you still have your check from the government, and then you have to make sure that this doesn't, like, mix with your real life. Is that a whole.
- [42:50]
Giovanni Rocco
My check gets automated, gets automatic deposited. My family gets it back home, right? But I say in.
- [42:55]
Heather
Like, in mixing and selling the fake counterfeit stuff and everything, was it ever, like, you know, scary that if. If maybe you could then be in trouble because you, like, use some of the gangster weird money even by accident, you know?
- [43:11]
Giovanni Rocco
Oh, God. Yeah. Oh, God, Yeah. We are. We are gone through. Our cases are gone through. Auditing. We do audits on ourselves within the bureau and the government, and we have auditors, government orders that while we're undercover, are auditing all of our expenses, you know, and if you are off by a nickel, man, they'll take your shield. They will. They will end the case. They will bring you up on charges. So, you know, you. You know, and again, it's not that you're stealing it. Like, let's say you're. You do your monthly bills. I pay my bills. I go to the bank, I pay my bills. As an undercover, I take care of everything I'm supposed to take care of. If my. If. If my bottom line is off by a nickel, I'm sweating bullets. I'd rather a guy threaten to chop me up into pieces than have the auditor from the FBI going through my case and then having to, you know, because, again, that nickel, I'm not kidding you. Five cents. If I'm off by five cents, somebody's getting a phone call going, hey, such and such a case is off, and we have to look at it because they want to make sure, you know, we've had, you know, when you have that kind of clearance, top secret clearance, you have to turn your bank records over to the government every three years. Your personal records, not just your, you know, because again, I didn't just do, you know, I did spy work. So you Know, you're. You can be. You can be accused of treason. You can be flipped by another government, you can be flipped by another agency. You know, all these horrible things can happen.
- [44:34]
Heather
So, yeah, so I'm going after, like, a big mafia family and exposing it. And what the mafia has done, I mean, was. They are like. Are they involved in drugs? I know they. They would go to, like, the mom and pop shops and be like, you have to pay us this much a week, otherwise we're gonna fuck you over. Like, they, they. So they would just. So they. It was like the town was sort of like, under some type of regime that they couldn't get out of. So was that the goal in breaking it up so that this could stop running these towns or. I don't. I guess I never really totally understood, like, the variation of crimes and that they did in what. Even watching the Sopranos, I was always, like, a little bit confused.
- [45:22]
Giovanni Rocco
Yeah. Where I come from, the mob traditionally ran. Again, New Jersey. I'll give you an understanding. The large scale with the docks, the ports. Right. The unions. Everything that was made in New York City, every skyscraper that was made in New York City had a labor union associated with it. It's not that the labor union's corrupted. There are people inside that were corrupted back in the day. Gangsters that made their way into these unions. My family, decavicante crime family was famously known. John Riggy was the boss of the family. When John Riggy was in the height of his power, he controlled all the concrete in New York. Imagine all the concrete, all the concrete that was delivered that power and money made millions on, man, that. You know, there's guys that have made money on gas scams and tax scams and counterfeit goods, Import, export goods. No matter. As long as you can figure out a way to make money. Cigarettes. There was big money in cigarettes. Counterfeit goods. There was big money in counterfeit goods. Knockoff stuff, stuff that fall off the back of a truck. Sports betting. You know, when they say stuff that.
- [46:26]
Heather
Falls off of back of a truck, that means you then have a trucker that is in the family on a low level or whatever. So they actually have a job as a trucker, and then they park and, like, give you some of it. And it just. No one ever follows up and realizes.
- [46:46]
Giovanni Rocco
Yeah, so much comes into the. Yeah, so much comes into the ports, Heather. Like Port Newark and Port. You know, the ports of New Jersey, Miami. So much comes into these ports. And once they hit the country, there's all these goods. I mean, you can't account for them sometimes. So once, you know, a couple of boxes go missing, maybe a container gets damaged, the container falls off the truck on the way, you know, falls off the ship on the way over. It's not, you know, all these. You pay somebody off inside that, you know, mismanages the numbers. And then you have a, you have a half a load or a quarter of a load of a truck, and maybe you have a whole truck. It depends on what it is. And then you take that and you bring it to the neighborhoods. And those less fortunate will buy those goods. Timberland boots, Uggs knockoff Uggs, even if they're legit. If I get a, if I got a truckload, I hijack the truckload of Uggs or Timberlands. I'm making good money on that, man. Razor blades, baby formula, all this kind of stuff back in the day. Millions, millions of dollars in baby formula, you know.
- [47:39]
Heather
Oh, that is so sad.
- [47:41]
Giovanni Rocco
It is sad. It is sad. But that's what these guys do. They scrape the bottom of the barrel, as they say, right? They'll squeeze a quarter to the. Till the eagle. They'll squeeze a quarter till the eagle screams. That's how bad they'll. They'll squeeze everything out of a quarter they can get, you know, and anything there is to make. And those little. I was dealing with the guy, he was making a lot of money doing cocaine, right? Selling cocaine. I was buying cocaine from him. I go to meet him one night to buy cocaine. He's locked in this, this little garage and he goes around during the day and has people bring him other VCRs, wires. And what he's doing is he would strip the plastic and get all the copper and all the metals exposed and he would fill up barrels. And then he wound up selling those and shipping them to China when he had 50, 50 gallon drums full of it. He would ship them over to China and they would pay for the scrap. And he was scrapping the metal. He had scrapped so much metal on his side because he hated his wife, right? He truly hated his wife and hated being home with her. He locked and he didn't. He wasn't unfaithful to her, he just hated her. And he would lock himself in his garage at night after he closed his shop, and he would sit there and just strip wire, bare wire, and throw it into a bucket. He had so much. He put his kids through college and, you know, so he had the wherewithal to do that. But yet he's selling cocaine, too. But you know, there's such a hot mess that they can't even. They can't save the money. As fast as they make the money, the money goes out. But my bosses in the crime family, at my heyday, we had a strip club we were open in Vegas. We were bottling water off of. We bought a glacier. We were. We were doing our own bottled water. Right. Legitimate business.
- [49:19]
Heather
That's legitimate.
- [49:20]
Giovanni Rocco
Yeah, Legitimate business. Yeah. We hide the. We hide the illegal money with the. With the legal money. Right. We call it the left and the right. The left is the bad, the right is the good. So we had blood diamonds coming in like they did, you know, and they let me into the fold. We had blood diamonds. You know, when they introduced the whole thing that we would get. We had a glacier. I was. Wait a minute. We actually have a glacier? And they're like, yeah, yeah. You know, and they told us the whole thing, how they're making money and bottle and water, like Poland Spring water, you know, similar to Poland Spring. And that's how we were going to do our. And then we were open up a strip club in Vegas. And, you know, at the end, we bought the club and we were going to open it up, and I was supposed to manage it, and it was crazy.
- [49:57]
Heather
And then. And then the. Then you. Then you had enough to get them arrested before all this.
- [50:02]
Giovanni Rocco
Yeah, once I was given. Yeah, once I went to a meeting. That's kind of what ended the case. If I. So the case ended in 2015. If the case didn't end in 2015. It was March of 2015, November of 2015. I was going to be proposed to be made into the family. I would be the first maid undercover ever to be made into the mafia, first law enforcement. But what happened was they decided that they were going to kill one of our own. Two of our own. And then eventually took one off the table for political reasons inside the crime family. And they wanted me to kill one guy, so he was a made guy. And then once I was given a task to kill him, we kind of knew the clock was ticking and there was only months left in the case. So we wrapped up the case and, you know, it was successful, and we made the arrests.
- [50:49]
Heather
And then did you. What was it like when you had to see them after, like, in court and stuff?
- [50:55]
Giovanni Rocco
So that was the best part for me, because in previous cases, I'd have to look them in the face. In this case, three years making tapes every single day, you know, making videotapes on some of them. Nobody ever went to trial. These guys from what, you know, the aus, The US Attorney that told me, and they snickered about it at their first appearance. When they were arraigned before the judge, a lot of the gangsters just said, listen, your honor, just stick me in a can and let me start serving my time. I know it was Giovanni. There's no way I'm going to beat this. So let me at least put me in now and let me start getting credit for my. My sentence. So they were happily, you know, my capo, my boss. He was recently released. When I. When I met him, he had just been paroled for 14 years for murder. So now he had, you know, went back in for another 10 years. And then he, you know, recently got out, he violated again and went back in. And now he's still an active member of the crime family.
- [51:50]
Heather
Well, did anybody have to go to prison for. For actual murder, or was it all the other stuff?
- [51:56]
Giovanni Rocco
No, no, they went to. Some guys went for cocaine distribution. I was doing cocaine with. Some guys went for conspiracy to commit murder. Other guys went for different things. Yeah, most of them went for drug use and conspiracy to commit murder.
- [52:08]
Heather
Did you ever have to fake doing drugs or do. Or actually do drugs to play the role?
- [52:15]
Giovanni Rocco
No, I've been. I've been at a. As a young detective, I. I was put in a position. First time I was ever put in that position was the last time I was put in that position. Right. I was young, I was in my 20s, and I did some stupid stuff and locked myself in an apartment. I was an outlaw biker at the time. And, you know, I had the whole look and everything going, and some guy challenged me and said he wouldn't sell me drugs, you know, So I talked my way out of it. Not really me to credit to the informant that I was with who was vouching for me. He kind of. He kind of saved my ass as a young cop. Then he threw me a bone. He was an older guy and he. He actually got me out of it. So from that point on, I knew, you know, guys would say to me, see, I'm not in it to do drugs. I'm not a drug addict. I make money on this stuff. You know, that's how I used to. And guys would say to me, you know, sometimes some of the cases, I had infiltrated the triads. I was. I was helping infiltrate the triads one.
- [53:06]
Heather
Time and his triads another family or.
- [53:08]
Giovanni Rocco
Triads are a Chinese. Chinese organized crime.
- [53:10]
Heather
Oh, wow.
- [53:11]
Giovanni Rocco
And they're very vicious. And the one guy had just been released from prison. And when I met him, he didn't like the fact that these, you know, Italian guys were at this. This banquet and this function, and he kind of came over to the table and wanted to be known. And he says, hey, when this. When this party's over, we're all going back to my house and I got prostitutes and cocaine. We're gonna party all night. So, you know, you kind of, as a gangster, you just step up and, you know, who do you think you're talking to? Like, you know, you don't talk to me like that. And then you got to be careful because you don't want to get your head chopped off either. So you let it be known as gangsters. Do you know, you don't. Don't disrespect me like that. You know, I don't do that garbage. I don't do, you know. Well, you're gonna tonight, then I won't do business with you. I'll tell you what. You go tell your boss that you think I'm gonna do drugs with you all night, and then I won't do business with you anymore. You go explain to your boss that you're gonna lose millions of dollars, you know, and that kind of puts it to bed right away. So, yeah, I've been in some situations where the. I write about in a book where I was buying cocaine from some guys and they started cooking it in the basement. And I had had reaction from it because it's crack. Once you start cooking cocaine, it turns into crack. And it's in the air and it's smoking. You're breathing it in. You know, that was.
- [54:21]
Heather
That was a terrible thing you mentioned Married to the Mob. I mean, when those shows came out, I always was like, I can't believe that these people are doing these shows. Or even like Real Housewives of New Jersey, a couple of them. They weren't. There's been talk that one of the family was somewhat involved in organized crime. There's been other crimes after involving some of the housewives that. Where her ex husband actually is in. In prison for trying to have or having someone actually break into the house and hit them. Dina Manzo, I don't know if you're familiar, but what I mean is that not the dumbest thing on earth to be on a reality show if you are in this crime world.
- [55:06]
Giovanni Rocco
If I was a real gangster, Heather, I don't think I'd. I don't think I would let my significant other be on TV and flaunting it around because again, I don't want Uncle Sam looking at me for taxes, you know what I mean?
- [55:18]
Heather
Yeah.
- [55:18]
Giovanni Rocco
And that's the biggest thing when, you know, these women, they're wearing fur coats and. Yeah, it's reality tv. They're giving a lot of these things. It's really not theirs. And you know, reality TV is. And again, come where I come from, the names that you mentioned are all from my neighborhood. It. These shows were filmed and I know people that were extras on these shows and there's a lot of stuff that's pumped in. You know, a lot of these reality shows are made up scenarios and they, they fuel the fire, you know. But yeah, I mean, just to tell you, I, I infiltrated a mafia case and some guys from Italy, the, the, you know, the motherland, as they call it, guys from the. Another crime family came over to the US and we were doing business with them as made guys. And I had, I had an informant who was a made guy in a crime family, he's a boss of a crime family. And they all came to one of our apartments in New Jersey to have a meeting. So the guys from Italy come over, they fly over. I had the bosses from the New York family, they're sitting in my apartment. And that show that you mentioned happened to be on tv, Real House. We didn't set it up that way.
- [56:19]
Heather
Yeah, Real House of New Jersey, you mean?
- [56:21]
Giovanni Rocco
No, it was. Yeah, so as we walk in the apartment, okay, it was staged. My girlfriend, my acting girlfriend, my. She was in there. She had a cameo for two minutes. She was a stripper, right? And she was a dancer and she had to go to work. She was getting ready for work and we were using her apartment. So imagine this is like a scene at a Sopranos, right? So we're going to use my apartment, which is my girlfriend's place. That's where we're going to have this meeting. She put out nice bottles of Italian wine for us. She put out a nice chartreuse board, some espresso, some gaba boo, some this, that, right? Some cheese. She made it nice. We come to the house, I walk in the apartment, she tells me, I'm going to work. I put everything out for you, sweetheart. Okay, sweetie, I'll see you later. You know, have a good night at work. She goes, we sit down on the couch. She happened to be watching Mob wise, right? And this wasn't planned. We sit down and these two made guys, one from Italy and one from the America, they sit on the couch in front of and it's the guy from America. The guy from Italy starts, look, he's watching the show, and he's listening to. And they're dropping F bomb after F bomb and names after names. And he just, like, He's. He's offended. And the American guy turns around, the American mob boss, he's like, literally doesn't even break. He goes, who talks like this? Listen to the mouths on these girls. Like, these women. Like. And I didn't want to tell you, he used a derogatory term. And he says, the mouths on these girls. Like, who. Who uses this kind of language does. And he looks and. And it's hysterical. Listen to these two mom guys going, does your wife.
- [57:55]
Karina Beemersdurfer
Does your.
- [57:56]
Giovanni Rocco
Does your wife talk like this? And he goes, my wife don't talk like this. No, we don't use this line. We don't act like this. You know, and there's these two guys, and they're in the life, and these people are portraying this thing in this. But America eats it up. They love this stuff. You know, the fashion, the craziness, the wildness. A lot of girls I met, they were like that. They were, you know, a lot of girls, a lot of gumads, as they call them, were like that. Girlfriends.
- [58:21]
Heather
Yeah. That's amazing. Now, wait, so if your informant was pretending to be a stripper, did she actually have to go to the club and strip?
- [58:30]
Giovanni Rocco
No, no, no. She just went. And the FBI guys picked her up a block away, and she's walking to.
- [58:34]
Heather
A car because I always thought. Like, I always thought as. I'm a weird person, but I always thought, like, you know, if I was to be a cop, like, you know, it'd be kind of fun to be, like, the hooker. Like, wear the slutty outfits and be the hook.
- [58:50]
Giovanni Rocco
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [58:50]
Heather
And try to, like.
- [58:52]
Giovanni Rocco
Yeah, to do the reverses, to catch.
- [58:55]
Heather
The johns, to just be, like, the sexy hook, you know?
- [58:58]
Giovanni Rocco
So it's funny you say that, right? Because kudos to female undercovers because you're putting yourself out there, right? And my wife being. She never did that. But my wife would have to be introduced to, you know, people that, you know, we're dancers for a living or, you know, for drugs and stuff like that, buying dope. But think about that. An undercover cop, you know, female officer, putting herself out in the street, and she has backup. We listen, I did those things, the reverse things, we call them. And to be that close, but God forbid you didn't get to her in time. And these deviants in the street, you know, and, and take advantage and think of all these serial killers that go after prostitutes and stuff.
- [59:34]
Heather
Yeah.
- [59:35]
Giovanni Rocco
You know, you're putting yourself out there. It's a dangerous thing. But, but see, you're after the adrenaline. See, you think it's attractive because of the adrenaline. That's an addiction. And I talk about that a lot in a lot of my interviews and in the book. It's the addiction to adrenaline. Right. It's trying to get over on them and baiting them and getting a bad. Catching a bad guy. That's what it's all about.
- [59:57]
Karina Beemersdurfer
Right.
- [59:57]
Heather
Well, this has been so amazing and it's so interesting to talk to you and tell them again where they can follow you and get your book and listen to your podcast.
- [60:07]
Giovanni Rocco
Yeah, check me out. It's Inside the Life is the podcast. It's produced by the Mob museum inside the life.org we're in season three now, so please check it out. And great. If you want to learn more about everything you and I talked about here, Heather, get some more insight from other law enforcement, from female law enforcement officers who work the great cases, and from guys that came from the life, outlaw biker guys, guys that were in the life as me, guys that have been guests on the show. Tremendous. My book can be picked up anywhere. Barnes and Noble, Amazon, it's on Audible, so anywhere you get, you pick it up. Podcast is followed anywhere, anywhere you can pick it up.
- [60:42]
Heather
Apple, Spotify, and the book is Giovanni's Ring. Giovanni.
- [60:46]
Giovanni Rocco
Giovanni's Ring. My Life Inside the Real Sopranos. And those who are mob enthusiasts, please check out. I just had a Fox Nation show drop. It's called Stories of the American Mafia. It's on Fox Nation and we just go back and tell the history of mob and how it was created and where we're at today.
- [61:01]
Heather
So, yeah, that I would definitely, that I'll definitely want to see because it's like now I am like understanding it so more and it is so fascinating, which is why so much TV and movies have been written about this life. And does the life still exist?
- [61:16]
Giovanni Rocco
Are there still these mobs 1000% just like.
- [61:21]
Heather
And. And when you would break a family, would the. Would the town benefit by getting rid of them? And then would a new family somehow get in there? Or did things not really change?
- [61:33]
Giovanni Rocco
No, things don't change. We as law enforcement, we try to do what we can to quell it and control it. Where I come from, there was an even keel. I mean, I'm not saying it's a good thing to have the mafia, but Where I come from and the way I grew up in the city, I grew up outside of Manhattan in Hudson county in New Jersey. It's the home. It's where. It's the epicenter for the Mafia, Right. It's where the home of Frank Sinatra is, where I'm from. And, you know, that whole area was controlled if the. If the police and the law enforcement couldn't take care of it, the mob guys took care of it. You know, there was this balance. There was always this.
- [62:05]
Heather
Oh, I. Yeah.
- [62:06]
Giovanni Rocco
So. Yeah. So, you know, it's. But it's there. It never goes away. We fragmented it. It crumbles a little bit, but then it rebuilds itself. Recently in the news, I see last week's. They had some arrests again. And some of the guys I actually had meetings with, some of the bosses that I took meetings with, had just been arrested again. So they just recycle, you know, and they do their time. They get out. You'll see an uptick in mafia stuff coming soon because all the gangsters from the early 90s and cases that they did their bid for, you know, 15, 20 years, they're all getting out now. So you'll see sports betting you've seen in the news lately, they never goes away. The Mafia don't ever listen to the government when they tell you the Mafia is gone. It doesn't exist anymore. The people that tell you that, they're lying to your face.
- [62:54]
Heather
Wow, this was so fascinating. Thank you so much for coming on Juicy Crimes. I really appreciate it.
- [62:59]
Giovanni Rocco
Thank you. Thank you for having me.
- [63:00]
Heather
Great. Thanks. Take care. Bye.
- [63:03]
Giovanni Rocco
Bye, Sam.