C (4:02)

Right.

B (4:03)

Some about postpartum. We were just starting to talk about postpartum depression. I did not know that she had spent almost like four different instances in a. In facility. You know, being inside the facility for, like, weeks on end prior to this. It's. I mean, so I thought the doc and I think the work that's been done on it and the research I've done and stuff, I do think there's more to the story than that. And that's why I thought it'd be good to discuss it with you because you did interview the director of this documentary.

C (4:37)

So postpartum depression, as you mentioned, very. People talked. Few people talked about it, and I think they talked about it in terms of you feel like your hormones are off. Maybe you're not so excited to have people come over to see the baby. We, of course, know that there's like a spectrum of that. The worst is postpartum psychosis. And there have been several stories in the news where mothers have killed their kids, and that is under that umbrella of postpartum psychosis. So this is certainly the case with Andrea Yates as well. Now, what's interesting through the lens of 2026 is the revelation that she and her husband were followers of this man, Michael Waronecki, who I wouldn't necessarily call him a cult leader, but I would say somebody who was an evangelist had sort of like an apocalyptic sort of end of days approach to his spirituality. And he lived out of a bus at points with his wife and his kids. But very much of the mindset that you should have as many kids as possible and you should follow the Bible by the word. So Russell Yates, who is Andrea's husband, first came across Michael and they became, I would say, followers of his teachings, his, his sermons. And even though this man was traveling on the bus with his family, I guess he would still do audio tapes. So they were very much followers of his belief system. So you have a mother who with each child the postpartum is getting worse. As you mentioned, she's being seen by a mental health expert who says, this is getting worse, you should not have any more children. Yet they're following somebody who has enormous influence over them and he is telling them that it's the word of God, that you should continue to have children.

B (6:32)

Well, first it reminded me of the Laurie Daybell situation to remind people that Laura Daybell, I kept calling her the worst mother in the world. And I do think she's worse than Andrea Yates. She was on her fourth husband, who was this guy who was essentially said it, saying his sermons on an audio. But of course in today's world it was a podcast. And so he didn't necessarily have a cult, but he had teachings, he had books, he was very doomsday. And in the end she and he got convicted for killing her two kids lives who they believed were demons, believed they'd be better off in heaven. Of course there was all the other cases. Did she end the life of her third husband with her brother? Did she end her brother's life? All of that. And she was a much more flashy girl. She was like in a pageant of Mrs. America. Andrea, which is interesting is that she was so smart. Like she graduated valedictorienne of high school, became a nurse, was like the top nurse. And then, and everyone loved her. And you know, I can imagine, you know, besides being a great nurse, you gotta be like super organized, super like efficient and great for making of a great mom, right? So then she marries this guy who works for NASA, so I assume he had a good salary. She decided, I think he made her like, of course I'll be a stay at home mom. This will be so great. And there's just something so sad about that, that like, you know, if there was a balance for someone like her, would this illness have ever come in.

C (8:13)

Michael Warnecki, the man that they followed, he very much believed that mothers should be subservient, wives should be subservient. That was the whole kind of structure of a family system, a total patriarchy. So if he says to her, go.

B (8:27)

From being a work, she would do it. Going from saving lives, having people under you doing all this, and then you're just, oh, all I am to do is just stay home, have sex whenever my husband wants and take care of these kids. And then there was a history with her own siblings that had suffered from some depression and whatever. And yeah, so she, you know, is ha. What I didn't know and maybe I missed this part of maybe, you know, when she would go. There were four different stints in. How do you call it? Inside facility, in a. In house or whatever, like a sleepover facility. I know I'm saying it wrong, but inpatient, inpatient facility. Who watched the kids then? His mom?

C (9:17)

I believe that he did. They did have family that helped because.

B (9:20)

The mom didn't want to leave when the, you know, leading up to the. The horrible murders. And. But I guess she was waiting, which helped with the first case, to say, you know, she's not crazy. This is premeditated. She waited for him to go off to work. She waited for the mother in law who was staying to help her because the mother in law did think she was so not mentally well to do this. She knew it was wrong because she called the police right away and turned herself in. And therefore, in that first trial, she was convicted of murder. It wasn't an insanity thing.

C (10:00)

And then there was appealed and then they reversed the decision. Guilty by reason of insanity. I think by then you crack the case open a little bit more and then people are starting to dive into what is postpartum psychosis. Of course, we've had several cases since then. Now what's interesting is she wants to remain in the facility. She does not want to be out in the world.

B (10:26)

I mean, I think that does show that she knows that she has this illness. Also, when you've. Why would you want to be out? It's a low. What do you call it, low security situation. She's been there for whatever, 20 years, and you're an old woman now, like pushing 60, I guess, and you know that to be your life. And maybe she has some friends and maybe she has a routine. And why. Why would she want to come out and have media following her around and people calling her horrible names, which they would, I mean, and why try to convince the world that you wouldn't be a harm to somebody? You know, like just, I'll just stay here. I wish more criminals would not waste our time and just go, I'll just stay here. You know, like, or whatever your case is, or insane people. But one thing I thought was really weird and maybe I don't have all the facts, but like what? One of the reasons they were able to have a new trial is because a psychiatrist on the defense. Oh, sorry, on the prosecution. Yeah, on the prosecution side somehow worked on Law and Order or said he did or he didn't work on Law and Order. And there was an episode of Law and Order before she committed this crime of drowning her children about a woman going through psychosis who drowned her children. Now I am curious to know if that did air regardless of this guy's involvement with it, because I don't really think that matters. But if that did air, prior to her doing this crime, she did say she was in that like psychotic state where she thinks the TV's talking to her. She thinks the commercials about candy are like saying that she gives her kids too much candy. She thinks her mother in law has a camera in her glasses. Well, of course today you can do that very easily, but back then. So it's like that, you know, where people think, yeah, they're schizophrenic, they think aliens are watching them, they're thinking they're under surveillance. So I'm wondering, do we know if she. If that did air and if it's possible that she should could have seen that and still adding to her mind in the tv, that that's maybe where she got the idea to end their lives that way.

C (12:48)

Not sure about the timeline, but there was, there was an issue with, with an expert in that case, which is the reason there was the second trial. But I'm not sure of the timeline. But it is possible, yeah. Close your eyes. Exhale. Feel your body relax and let go of whatever you're carrying today.

B (13:10)

Well, I'm letting go of the worry.

C (13:11)

That I wouldn't get my new contacts.

D (13:13)

In time for this class.

C (13:14)

I got them delivered free from 1, 800 contacts.

B (13:16)

Oh my gosh, they're so fast. And breathe. Oh, sorry.

C (13:20)

I almost couldn't breathe when I saw the discount they gave me on my first order. Oh, sorry. Namaste.

B (13:27)

Visit 1-800-contacts com today to save on your first order. 1-800-contacts. Crisp, refreshing and unmistakably tasty. Ice cold coke, zero sugar. It's the only drink with real Coca Cola taste and zero sugar. Um, but I just think the Rusty was just so. I mean, maybe who knows why he was the way he was. You know, he is an engineer. I'm not. I don't know. He maybe didn't really get what was going on. Maybe he was so sucked into the world of, like, I'm the leader of the house, and she'll just get over it, and we'll just keep going on this path of having more kids.

C (14:09)

A lot of people watched that documentary and were angered because he did seem flippant. They were. They were being told, do not have any more children. And he. He put his religious beliefs ahead of his wife's mental and physical health.

B (14:22)

He said their plan was to have six.

C (14:24)

Yeah.

B (14:26)

So, I mean, that was just what he decided.

C (14:30)

Now his. What he believes now is that he had no idea the breadth of the case that he was dealing with in terms of his wife's mental health. And now he's been awakened to the reality of her postpartum psychosis. However, there are many people watched that documentary series and felt a complete disconnect and a lack of responsibility of infusing this man's wild religious beliefs into their home.

B (14:59)

I think one of the reasons that he wasn't as furious with her, too, is in his weird. And why he supported the not guilty by reason of insanity is because without showing it, maybe he does have some real guilt.

C (15:18)

I'm sure.

B (15:19)

And he doesn't. And he feels like the damage has been done. And I don't know. Or maybe he's got some issue. And I don't want to say, like, on the spectrum, but possibly in the way that he's presenting himself is not truly how he feels. It's just socially we watch it and we think, oh, my God, you're not showing enough emotion. You're not. But in his heart, he's like, who knows? But did he ever get remarried?

C (15:49)

He got remarried. He had one more child. And he does go to the facility to visit her.

B (15:55)

I mean, that's pretty nice.

C (15:59)

It's just such an interesting case to look to think about Oprah and her story on that show and how enraged people were, and for good reason.

B (16:09)

Right.

C (16:10)

And now to look through the lens of 2026 and how much we've learned about postpartum psychosis, just how much we look at that story so differently all these years later.

B (16:19)

Yeah. When you think about Susan Smith, who was the woman who said that she was carjacked by a black man and he got in the Took her out of the car and took her car. And she had two young children in car seats in the back. And so the town was like, oh my God, you know, where are these babies? And who is this horrible man that did this? And it turned out she, you know, got out of the car, put it in neutral or whatever and pushed it into a lake. And that was clear evidence that it was truly like an evil thing. Like she had a boyfriend who didn't want to be a dad. And this was her result. The same one that I'm thinking about that was, I think, pure Evil. It might have been. That might have been the name of the Lifetime movie Pure Evil. Farrah Fawcett played her. And it was again, she had three kids.

C (17:22)

Burning bed.

B (17:23)

No, this was different. She had. The woman had. I want to say her name started with a D. So she was a pretty girl.

C (17:30)

Diane.

B (17:31)

Yes, Diane. And she had three kids and a single mom and she was working at the post office. And she had a boyfriend and he was. They were having sex, but he said, hey, I. I am not interested in like being a dad or having more kids.

C (17:51)

Diane. Down like that.

B (17:52)

Yes.

C (17:53)

Okay.

B (17:53)

And so she takes her three kids. Like, the oldest is like maybe a nine year old girl, and then like a six year old boy and a baby or like a younger kid and they go out driving. And what was so weird about this one is she. The song that she like, liked a lot that the little girl remembers her playing is Hungry like the Wolf. Oh, yeah, Hungry like. And then again she lies and says somebody came to try to steal the car, whatever, and shot all of them. So she like shoots herself in the leg, was manages to drive the car to the hospital. All the kids are shot. I think the youngest one dies. The middle one boy is like a paraplegic. And then the girl lives and she's really the star witness. And in the end, I believe the detective or the prosecutor ended up adopting the girl and the boy who was in a wheelchair. And, you know, she. Oh, and then she manages to get pregnant while she's awaiting trial.

C (19:05)

That's right.

B (19:06)

Yep. And I mean, she really. That. That's pure evil. And she would try to talk to the daughter and be like, yeah, she was. And try to manipulate her and.

C (19:17)

Yeah.

B (19:17)

And then when they play that song in the courtroom, Hunger like the Wolf, according to the movie, which is based on what really happened, she's like rocking out to us.

C (19:27)

I remember that. I remember that in the movie, these.

B (19:30)

Movies, these made for TV movies. Unbeliev farrah Fawcett did two. Two incredible ones that and the Burning Bed. They are like etched in our Gen X memory because there was like nothing else on. And everybody watched it and you couldn't believe it. And they, like, didn't hold back. Like, they touched very taboo subjects at the time. And you know who was also like.

C (19:54)

A huge made for TV movie star? Valerie Bertinelli.

B (19:58)

Oh, yeah. So good. Anyway, yeah, the whole thing with the. And then also with this cult leader guy, which. Could it be a cult when it's like, not a lot of people.

C (20:10)

He's taken zero responsibility. He's like, I. I have my own thing going on. I, you know, I'm not involved. But I mean, he was highly influential.

B (20:19)

And again, he had another thing like the, like the daybells, like other things like that where it's like, oh, only, you know, a certain amount of people are gonna get to heaven. Well, in his case it was only 8, but he already had a wife and six kids. So, like, who else is getting in the van to heaven and like living in a van? And it's also, I think it's always really shocking when someone's like, how did you believe this crap when you and your husband were like highly educated scientists, you know, medical nurse.

C (20:52)

I know.

B (20:52)

But also like, you look at all.

C (20:53)

Those people from heaven's gate. Remember the ones?

B (20:56)

Oh, yes.

C (20:57)

They were brilliant as well.

B (20:58)

Right. They were all doing the web thing that. To remind people that was in Rancho Santa Fe outside of San Diego, and they were all living in this house. I think they rented it. And they were all like tech web people. And they believed like, tonight's the night that the spaceship is coming the hit.

C (21:17)

And they're the.

B (21:17)

And they have to wear tennis shoes.

C (21:18)

The comet was going to come and they actually. They castrated themselves. Remember?

B (21:23)

Were they all men?

C (21:24)

And it was men and women. The men were castrated. And the women would like get their breasts removed so they looked really androgynous. And they would all cut their hair to look like the leader. His name was like Doe.

B (21:37)

Okay.

C (21:38)

And they poisoned themselves. And then they put bad black. Oh, my God, you're wearing them.

B (21:45)

Oh, God, you scared me.

C (21:47)

You're wearing them. You're wearing the Heaven skate shoes.

B (21:50)

These are the Nike shoes.

C (21:52)

Yes.

B (21:53)

I just like these because they're like slip on and I like, I was in a rush this morning.

C (21:57)

Oh, my God. This is a message from the other side.

B (21:59)

Oh, my God. That's you. That scared the out. I do remember that whole thing. That was like 20 years ago, too. And have they done a doc on that?

C (22:10)

I just feel like they have to do it. They did an HBO documentary about it. It was great.

B (22:13)

I'm sure they'll just recycle it and have somebody else do it for Netflix. But anyway, let's move on. Amanda Knox, you know, we've talked a lot about her. It's just. It's a reason why you might never want to send your kid to study abroad when they're young. She went to Italy. She had a roommate. She had a boyfriend. She comes back from an evening and is hanging out. She thinks her roommate's still sleeping in the room. They find out she's been stabbed and murdered, and the Italian government believes it's she and her boyfriend.

C (22:54)

Right.

B (22:56)

So there's been a lot that's been done. She. What finally happened? She did do. How much time did she do?

C (23:00)

I can't remember how many years now. I forget.

B (23:02)

But it was several years.

C (23:03)

One thing people.

B (23:04)

And she was American.

C (23:05)

One thing people forget to remember is that she lived in a duplex. And there were eight people that lived there. There were four guys that lived in the one, the downstairs flat, and there were four girls that lived in the upstairs flat. That weekend. All seven of the other flatmates were all out of town, including Amanda, who went to stay with her new boyfriend.

B (23:27)

Rafael, just for the night.

C (23:29)

They had been together, like, two weeks.

B (23:30)

Yeah.

C (23:31)

And so Meredith was the only person in that unit that evening. And he probably. Rudy, probably followed her.

B (23:40)

The killer, when they eventually found out.

C (23:42)

Raped her, murdered her, and then staged it to look like a robbery. But there was a lot of discussion about Amanda acting very strange afterwards.

B (23:50)

But people don't realize Ruby, like, worked at a restaurant nearby or something.

C (23:54)

Who was Ruby? No, that was Patrick Lumumba. It was a person in town. He had a history of petty theft, stuff like that.

B (24:01)

He was. Oh, that's right.

C (24:03)

And.

B (24:04)

But this prosecutor in Italy was just so fixated on her. And it was a lot of shaming to be like the vixen from America. And I didn't realize that, like, there was this five in Italy, being that it's, you know, the capital, the Vatican, and being so Roman Catholic that they were going with that and that they.

C (24:26)

Satanic rituals.

B (24:27)

Yes. And I always just remember as the police are there, she. They caught video of her with the boyfriend, which is a new love. And they were just kind of, you know, when you're in that stage, that new love stage, where you're just very, like, kissing and all that. And it did look really bad. But in retrospect, you know, it's just like, who's to say how you're supposed to act when you're ruining.

C (24:52)

And they're trying to get her to give a statement, but she can barely speak Italian. They won't give her an attorney. There's like a series of horrible.

B (24:59)

They won't give her a translator at first.

C (25:02)

They won't let her call her mother.

B (25:05)

So there's been books and stories, and she's spoken out a lot. And you got to interview. Who did you interview from this?

C (25:12)

Well, I interviewed her a couple years ago about her case, and then last week, I interviewed Amanda and her husband Christopher, because he filmed and directed a documentary about her going back to Italy. So she goes back to Italy. She was never going to go back again.

B (25:28)

This just came out on Hulu on Monday the 26th. And what is the gist of this doc?

C (25:34)

Her going back to Italy and having the opportunity to confront Giuliano Mignini, who was the prosecutor. So imagine you're wrongfully convicted, you're imprisoned, you're exonerated, and then you go back to the country where all of this happened, and then you confront the person that made your life a living hell. So you watch her in that moment, and she brings her husband and her kids with her and her mother, and it's. I think everybody that watches it will kind of think about their own life and the opportunity to confront somebody who has been involved in one of the worst moments of your life.

B (26:09)

My last interview on this show, I was talking to Maggie, who does a lot of podcasting and. And journalism about wrongfully convicted people. And one of the things I asked was like, I do think it's. Whenever we see these things on Dateline or wherever, where the prosecutor went so hardcore succeeded only to find out that 100% the person was innocent based on DNA or something, and they were in prison for 25 years. And you're like, oh, my God, I hate that fucking prosecutor. Like, that's. It must be so weird, because it is a job. You have the pressure. You want to get as many convictions as possible. And I think it takes a lot of a certain kind of prosecutor person if and maybe they never think they're going down the wrong path. On occasion, they will discover something and go, okay, wait a minute, we're actually gonna stop this, or let's do a plea or whatever, or let's, you know. And I do think that just must be so weird if you're that person and you actually know that by doing the best job possible, even though your intent was correct and you didn't think that you were wrong, that someone has been even one night being confined when they shouldn't be, I just think that is just like such a weird thing. So I'm very curious to see like what was his vibe? It sounds like they're friendly now or something. Does he feel badly?

C (27:43)

He was very, he was friendly, but there was only so much he would say. And like I said to her, there's generational issues at play, cultural issues at play. The Machismo, the Italian 60 year old man who went down a path, who doesn't it. By retracting his statements, he's basically dismissing the work that he did for all those years and his belief system. That I thought was interesting. The other thing I thought was interesting was the way that people in our modern era seem to have a very hard time saying I got something wrong. Yeah. And this was an example of it. I mean she, you know, she's going, amore, amore. Like bring her kids over. Like, these are my kids and this is my husband. And again, I was like, Amanda, the women do the hard work. You have to fly across the world to try to get yourself closure. And you can see in the moments that he does feel guilt, but he just can't totally go there. So it's just, it's heartbreaking because you think of the time, what happened to her behind prison walls because how much.

B (28:46)

Time did she spend in prison?

C (28:47)

Again, I can't remember how many.

B (28:48)

I want to say it was like three or four years.

C (28:50)

No, I think it was like five. And also the time she lost with her mother, what her mother had been through. So you just see and then the afterlife of release. So I asked Christopher how, how much has her, her experience in Italy shifted the way that she lives now and does it still creep up on her? And he said every person in her life there, there are things about her relationship with each person in her life that are molded by the experience that she had. The way that she is with each person is completely affected by what transpired in Italy. It's just so sad.

B (29:29)

Yeah. And I feel like with her. Aren't there some people still on the victim's. The poor girl who was murdered side that still believe that she was, it was her.

C (29:44)

I believe her family, Meredith's family believes that Amanda did it. But again, I think this kind of goes into the bigger picture of, of.

B (29:52)

Like, I don't want to say I tortured this girl. Like, I don't want Y. The other thing I think is really sad that we don't talk enough about is the victims of the person. And you're like, I need justice for my dead sister. And so you push for this guy or whoever to be convicted, and then 20 years later, DNA proves that he was innocent. And what a weird place you're in now. Like, God, the spiderweb effect of it. All right, absolutely. Okay, so Elizabeth Smart is the number one podcast this week. Sorry, number one documentary this week on Netflix. And for the few people that are. That may not know the story are kind of. It was crazy. It was a big Mormon family that came from money in a nice, big, you know, multi level home in just. Just outside or Salt Lake City. And she and her younger sister not only shared a room, but they shared a bed. Like, you know, and she was 14, and maybe the sister was like 9.

C (30:55)

Yeah. Just a couple years younger.

B (30:57)

And a man came into the room and took her. Like, put a knife to her throat and took her. It was middle of the night, nobody woke up. And the little girl was like, I don't know who took her. And then Elizabeth Smart was, you know, raped throughout the whole, like nine months she was gone. She was with this weird guy, Emanuel, who was in his 50s. And then. And this woman who was his wife, Wanda, and they just tortured her and withheld food and all this stuff that we'll get into a minute. But she was eventually rescued because the little girl, which is so interesting, all of a sudden was like, oh, wait, it's Emmanuel. They're like, Emmanuel. This is like months later, she says, yeah, Emmanuel was this homeless guy preaching the word of the Lord in downtown Salt Lake City where some homeless people hung out. And she and her mother met him. And the mother said, here, come back with us or call us or whatever. Here's my husband's number and we'll give you some work. So he worked on the house a couple days where then of course, he saw Elizabeth. The 14 year old got fixated on her, actually. Huh.

C (32:22)

I interviewed Elizabeth. I didn't know this until she told me.

B (32:25)

Yeah.

C (32:26)

What actually happened was she and her mom were out in Salt Lake City and he saw them out on the street. This predated it. He saw him and spotted them and he made a decision. That's going to be my new young wife. And that's how he. He figured out a way to get in front of Lois Smart, the mother. And. And then he, you know, he said he was like looking for work. And she said, oh, we can Offer you some work. So it actually predated that he saw her and targeted her.

B (32:55)

That part of the story that happened, you know, this whole story happened like 20 years ago. I immediately. Once they realized and she was rescued and who it was and the story behind seeing this weird homeless guy preaching and then inviting him back to your house where you have young girls because you want to do the Christian thing and have them work out and give him some work, all these people need is just a job, you know, Just a job. And it is hard because I remember being a little kid in Catholic school and being like to my mom, like, shouldn't we be inviting this guy to join us for Thanksgiving dinner? Because that's when you'd read in the Bible, like, the Christian sees the homeless person and brings them home to their house. Well, you know, that was written a long time ago. This person might not be on fentanyl, might not, you know, they didn't have that back in Nazareth or whatever. But I just think that must have been. As the mother. Even though the dad agreed to it, and even if they thought they were doing their Mormon duty or Christian duty to give people that are. Because she said, I like that he was speaking the word of God. So it's like, oh, a godly man that just can make an honest living. He doesn't have to beg. We're going to give him so much to know that you brought that person into your home and they stole your daughter and tortured her for nine months in every horrible way that you could think of. Took everything from her, innocence. Everything. She'd never even held a boy's hand. And the wife was torturing her, too. I just think. And I'm. You know, and I. Who knows what happened? I don't. Who knows if either one ever blamed each other of the parents. They did end up getting divorced.

C (34:43)

Yeah.

B (34:45)

And then maybe like 10 years ago, it came out. He came out as gay, her dad. That was not touched in the documentary. Not that it has to, but to me, you know, I find that stuff juicy and interesting. So they got divorced. He's out and gay, and he was a big part of the doc. And she has a great relationship with him. But you told me something interesting about your interview with her, about her relationship with her mom.

C (35:13)

Yeah, she's just. She said she spends more time with her dad. And I kept thinking about that again, the afterlife of a crime, like you had mentioned.

B (35:24)

Yeah.

C (35:24)

I think how, how, how we internalize things and. And the communication. One of the things, too, that she struck me About Brian David Mitchell, who went by Emanuel. He sees her on the street. He's. Now he's made a decision. I've got to get in front of this family. So I think he had come to rake leaves outside. I don't think he actually came inside the house, but it was enough that he's like.

B (35:46)

So I always imagine in my head, like, back in the day, it was something with roofing, and I just imagined that he could look inside the window. But now that you say that, he didn't have to be on the roof. He didn't have to be anywhere. He wanted to see where they lived.

C (36:00)

He wanted to see where they lived. And. Because when he broke into the house, it was through a window with a knife. He cut the screen open. Then he puts the knife up to her throat, and he leads her outside. And then they wander through the hills behind the house, and they were really close by. She could hear the family calling her name. She could hear the helicopters.

B (36:20)

Right. And that's one part where she said, when she could hear it, he put the knife in front of her and he says, if you make any noise, like to yell out, like, dad, I'm here. This knife will kill who's ever coming for you.

C (36:34)

Yeah.

B (36:35)

So, you know, that's something that. That predators do to young kids all the time. If you tell, I'll come back and kill your family. Or if it's someone in the home. If you tell, then, you know, it'll be all your fault. We'll get divorced. Your family won't have, you know, your mom will be suffering if you tell. No one will believe you if you tell or you know, or you think, well, at least if. If my. If you're being abused by your dad or whatever, or stepdad, I'll just comply. So they don't do this to my little sister.

C (37:08)

Right.

B (37:09)

And she did think a lot about her little sister, hoping that he wouldn't go back to the house and get the little sister. And because he said, I. He said at one point, I do want to get your sister because I want to have seven. The whole thing that they believed was in scripture is that he's to have seven young wives or seven young girls, and she's the first. And. Yeah. I think that it's so hard. Like, yeah. Where people think about. I don't think there's enough about the victim's family, whether they. And this was the most incredible story. You just never have an ending. Like Elizabeth Smollett.

C (37:48)

We never thought that she would be found. So that was incredible. A couple of things that when I interviewed her that I thought were interesting. One, she was adamant that no one should be under the belief that Brian David Mitchell. So Emmanuel. That he was, you know, reason by insanity. This was somebody who was calculated, and he. His. His attorney attempted to make it seem as if he was mentally unstable. This was somebody who was very. She wanted to make sure that was understood. She had huge issues with the fact that Wanda Barzee has been released. Now, we know that Wanda since 2018, she was released, and she also was in a park. She violated some terms of her release going to a park around children. So she had a problem with that. Another.

B (38:40)

I just want to. I also know this from, like, the Ruby Frankie case, which. The Ruby Franke case is, again, a lot like the Andrea Yates in that it was highly religious and the kids were always told they were bad, and they believed they were bad and everything. But in that case, Utah's, like, the only state that has this weird thing where even though you get this amount of time, at any time, the state can just go, you're good, you can leave. And they often do that with sexual crimes of children. I don't know why, because there have been so many sexual crimes amongst children within the religious sector of Utah. So it seems like from what I could tell, she was released early.

C (39:30)

So that was incredibly upsetting. Another thing is, in terms of her release and her healing, it was very important, she said, to go right back to her life. She had just graduated from maybe eighth grade.

B (39:46)

No, she said, I think that day was supposed to be the graduation or something.

C (39:49)

Yeah, she wanted to go right back to her life. She wanted to be in activities. It was very important that she go right back to school. And I just found that part to be really fascinating. Like, I am not going to allow them to rob any more of my life. I'm gonna get right back into the swing of things.

B (40:08)

Yeah. I mean, and she did eventually fall in love, have children, wrote books, is a speaker. I mean, it is incredible. Her story and her strength. I just couldn't believe that there wasn't more swift justice to convict him immediately. Like, the whole state was looking for her.

C (40:33)

Yeah.

B (40:34)

Why did it take 10 years? Why was his public defender that successful in, like, dragging this out? And that's the other thing. It's like, it makes it so that's why it's so good when someone is a victim of any kind of crime like this, and either the cops kill them or they run into the woods and shoot themselves and they Die. It's like, oh, my God, Thank God. Thank God we don't have to suffer through this again and again. And then in his case, he's going to prison without reason of parole, without a chance of parole. But when the people have to go back and, like, fight to keep this person in, it's just like. It's so hard. And I think when people think, oh, my God, the family must be so happy. She's thriving. You know, the kids are all happy to be together. It's like, that kind of damage. And with the media scrutiny and the fact that she said in the documentary, when they, like, said to the dad, we're pretty sure we have Elizabeth, and she's in that room. And now he hasn't seen her in nine months. And, you know, people change a lot between, like, 14 and 15. And he's like, elizabeth, if it's you. And she said, I was like, still didn't know if I was, like, in trouble.

C (41:57)

Yep.

B (41:58)

Because of the sexual assault. And again, like, you're just like, did I do something wrong?

C (42:06)

Will my parents accept that I am no longer the version that I was. I am no longer pure. I mean, the first night that she's taken, they made her drink alcohol, and they forced her to watch them have sex. And if she.

B (42:17)

Him and Wanda.

C (42:18)

Yeah. If she looked away, she said they would say, no, we're going to start all over again. You h. Because he. The whole thing was, you have to see how a wife. Because you're now a wife. How they can please their husband.

B (42:31)

And then that she had. The most interesting thing is she knew that they were saying, we're going to go to another state, the three of them. And they only had been out a little bit where she and Wanda would wear these white outfits, almost like a Habib, but in white with the mask on the face. And that I thought was really interesting of the time because they were, like, at a library or something, and an officer did say, I need to see your face because I need to make sure that's not the squirrel we're looking for. And Emmanuel goes, you can't. It's part of our religion, almost posing as, like, Islamic people. No one can see her face or hair unless it's me or her husband. And being that it's such a religious. Such respect for these weird religions in Utah or whatever, the cop was like, no, okay.

C (43:30)

She harbors some resentment for that. And that's why, when she gets to the end of the story of the rescue, when this couple calls the police and Says, we think we've spotted her. And they take her into the room in the police department. She wasn't trusting of the police because of that.

B (43:47)

Yeah, the cop obviously made a huge mistake. But it just goes to show you what an easy. What an easy thing that to say was just like, oh, that's our religion. And everyone just has to be like, oh, okay. Yeah, like, it was, it's. It was really crazy. But I. I really do, like, just think about that whole situation. And that of course, the beginning, the dad was looked at or any of the older brothers or whatever.

C (44:16)

They. They were very frustrated because they felt like the police had been investigating them without any reason and that it was delaying the real work that needed to be done. And as we know, that's true.

B (44:28)

And then when they say it's this Emmanuel, and then they're like, why did she suddenly remember now? And, well, that happens with kids.

C (44:38)

Yeah.

B (44:39)

And they might deny being molested and then come forward, you know, many months or years later because they finally do feel safe.

C (44:50)

The last part of that story that's really interesting is I think that's a real example of how this family became their own advocates.

B (44:59)

Yeah.

C (44:59)

I mean, the media with a missing case, specifically a young girl, they're going to be interested for a short period of time. And they kept ensuring that the media kept covering this case. And I think they're real heroes to the story too. Right.

B (45:15)

And that there are kidnap victims that. That are alive that are not murdered. You know, like, sadly, that is the. The percentage. But whether it was the. I forgot her name. The young girl that was found walking around Berkeley with her two kids, this.

C (45:34)

Is the obsession of my life. Her name was J.C. her name was J.C. dugard and she wrote one of the best books I've ever read in my entire life. I would love the opportunity to meet her. And she was stolen from Lake Tahoe. She was walking to school and kidnapped and put into a car.

B (45:55)

Didn't the dad or stepdad or somebody actually saw from the hill and he was like, running after the car?

C (46:02)

Yes. So he knew the. He could describe the car. She's kept in the backyard of this house and under tents and raped for years. And she has to wear, like a garb and is brought out. He starts to bring her out in the world. She has two children while she's in captivity and they're walking around a campus. And it was an astute female detective that had a. Felt unnerved by it and investigated it. Eventually she says, My name is J.C. dugard. The reason.

B (46:36)

Did the detective somehow pull her away from him or was.

C (46:39)

No, it was a female detective. No.

B (46:41)

But was she able to go and walk around Berkeley with her two kids without her captor, or was he there and she.

C (46:47)

Like, he was there, but she said that there were times where she would grow up, but she was in such a great fear. And also because she has these two children. When you read her book, similar in some sense to Elizabeth Smart, but specifically with JC's book, you begin the book and she says, I'm going to, in graphic detail, explain to you what happened to me in captivity. And the reason I'm going to do that is because he's the one that did it to me. And I've learned through the work of therapy that I should not carry the shame of. Of what someone does to me. The person who did it to me should carry the shame. And I thought.

B (47:26)

And so. Correct.

C (47:27)

Oh, my God, absolutely. And I think women tend to do that too. When things happen to us, we carry the shame. And we have to learn to stand up for one another and remind ourselves that they should carry the shame. So that's an unbelievable rescue story too. And she's doing really well. She's a great foundation. Her daughters went off to college. Unbelievable.

B (47:51)

On a lighter note, she has incredible skin because unfortunately, and fortunately for her skin, unfortunately for her horrible life, she never went out in the sun. I mean, that was like, oh, my God, she looks like she's like 15.

C (48:06)

She's teaching these kids when she only had a limited education herself.

B (48:12)

Amazing. Yeah. And then there were the. Yeah, there were the three other girls that were kidnapped in Ohio by the horrible guy that like.

C (48:19)

Yeah. But of course, they don't look like Elizabeth Smart. So they're forgotten about or they're not.

B (48:24)

They come from a little bit of a lower income home or. Yes. And wow, it was. That's amazing. All right, let's switch gears for some other interesting stuff. Not necessarily juicy crimes, but good. You guys know how excited I am because on February 12, Naomi Watts just posted. Now, I don't know who Naomi Watts is. Is she playing someone in this. This is the love story of John F. Kennedy and Caroline Bassett. And it comes out February 12th.

C (49:02)

Is she playing Lee Roswell?

B (49:05)

Oh, I don't know if she is. Or maybe because she played a character in the.

C (49:13)

She played Rose Kennedy.

B (49:14)

No, no, no. Remember when she was in the show? I think it was also on Hulu with what's his name? Not Andy Warhol, but like that Truman Capote.

C (49:28)

Yeah.

B (49:29)

Truman Capote. She played one of those socialites.

C (49:32)

Okay.

B (49:33)

It wasn't Lee Radziwell. That was Ally McBeal. What's her name?

C (49:39)

Calista Flockart.

B (49:40)

Yeah, that was Calista Flockhart. So I don't know if she's just. Maybe she's a producer. Maybe she plays another role in it that she posted and I follow her. That's how I was reminded that this is coming out in a couple weeks. I mean, I've been so excited about this and throughout the last couple years, knowing that this was being made by Ryan Murphy, I believe I had talked to Real Housewives of New York, Carol Radzwell, and I was like, do you know if someone's playing you? And she's like, oh, no. I go, they'll have somebody play you. Even if it's a small part. They will have something just for fun. No. Yes. Trust me. Okay? Just like Ryan Murphy did where they show the little Kardashian girls in the OJ Series going, go, daddy, go, Daddy. Because their dad was the attorney for O.J. they'll just do. They'll do a little snippet just for the audience to kind of get excited. So I, I'm telling you, this is my prediction, okay? It will not be a big part. It will just be a brunette girl with like a big smile who will be there, like with her husband, who was Jonathan Kennedy's first cousin. And there'll be something around the wedding or dating or something, and she'll be like, oh, and this one over here. And she'll just pour wine and like walk away and she'll go, oh, you know, Carol. Or whatever. And they'll have like a moment or there'll be something maybe leading up to their tragic death, which was in fact her husband dying of cancer, Carol Radziwell. And maybe, maybe at the funeral or mourning him. But just. That's my prediction. She will have something. It won't be a big role. It'll just be like a no name brunette girl that will be playing her.

C (51:27)

There are so many people in the orbit of the Kennedys who could be perfect for these little moments too. There's so many people in their lives.

B (51:35)

And there's just been so many books written. So it's like, of course Carol wrote the book what Remains, which was.

C (51:41)

I love that book so much.

B (51:42)

Which was because she lost not only her husband, and then shortly after, they really were like a foursome couples, like best friends, you know, cousins, their mothers were sisters. And. And here she was, this young widow Whose whole life was just totally blown up. And it's just so interesting. And so, of course, anybody who is going to work on this and write this is going to have, you know, take. Taken everything from every book and every movie and everything. So. And then they say, you know, this has been fictionalized. These conversations didn't really happen. But I know that if I was writing it, I'd be reading Carol's book. I'd be reading the one about Jackie and her sister. I'd be. I would have. I've read a lot of these things. But it is so fascinating the things that. That are believed to be about their relationship. Like, you know, that he was the thirsty one. You know, why else would he be riding his bike around in New York shirtless with a beret?

C (52:42)

Yeah.

B (52:43)

Now, when I say that, people go, I don't think he was wearing a beret on the bike. No. But he wore a beret a lot. He wore berets a lot.

C (52:50)

Sometimes he did wear the beret on the bike.

B (52:52)

Wouldn't it have flown off?

C (52:53)

Or. No. I don't know.

B (52:54)

I wonder if it's like that. The memory of, like, the. Did the Monopoly guy doesn't have the monocle or does he have the monocle? Like, he did write shirtless a lot. He was shirtless a lot because he had a great body. He was, like, throwing, like, a football around in Central park. Shirtless with paparazzi catching. He did like a beret because he came to my show in the Groundlings with the beret on. I don't think you'd wear a beret shirtless. So I will say that I think is a weird memory of mine that doesn't exist. Yeah. And, you know, and then there was this. Then there's all those weird stories of, like, she was getting her nails done and didn't like the color and asked the girl to redo it, and that's why they were late leaving. But then the other side is he really wasn't. He probably shouldn't have been flying alone yet.

C (53:42)

No, no.

B (53:42)

He didn't have the expertise. But he's jfk.

C (53:45)

He was also injured. Oh, yes.

B (53:48)

What was that?

C (53:49)

What was that? He had broken his. His foot or he. He. Like, he was in no shape physically to fly a plane, and they're flying the plane. I've got homework for you if you want to get excited for this.

B (53:59)

Okay.

C (54:00)

Because I've interviewed so many authors about the Kennedys. I have a son named Jack and a daughter named Caroline. I'm like, this is up my alley. Any books by J. Randy Taraborrelli are fantastic. But I think the book that you are going to really like is called Jackie Public, Private Secret, which is an oral history of Jackie Kennedy's life. And if you think you know everything, you don't, because there's so many moments in it that are not found in other books. I just think it's so. I didn't even want to finish the book, but of course, 20 pages from the end because I was so excited. But Jackie sets you up for understanding.

B (54:34)

Die of cancer, right?

C (54:36)

Yes.

B (54:36)

Before this.

C (54:37)

Before this, she never met Carolyn, but you start. But. But when you read that, it kind of sets you up where you understand his life and the relationships that he had. And then the other one that you.

B (54:49)

I thought it was interesting. I always think he wanted to be an actor.

C (54:52)

I think he wanted to be an actor.

B (54:53)

He dated Madonna. He dated Daryl Hannah. He did whatever he could with his major at Yale where he could have little parts and things, but he had to go the law school route.

C (55:03)

He was like a crazy, super creative person. But I do think he probably would. Would have wanted to run for office at some point.

B (55:09)

Oh, yeah.

C (55:09)

The other book to read is Carolyn, and that's all about Carolyn Bessette because she made it a point to keep so much of her life secret because she was battling this media. She. She didn't want to give them what they wanted. So she would often go out in the same outfit, like the white shirt, just to mess with them. Yeah, she would.

B (55:30)

Which, by the way, that looks. You can't hear her voice right now. I think I watch all these. All these things that she wore.

C (55:35)

They're coming back.

B (55:36)

And it is already coming back because the classic blonde hair part down the middle, low bun.

C (55:43)

Yeah.

B (55:44)

Just a lip. And less eye makeup is coming back. The spaghetti strap. Like just simple dresses. Camel coat. Yeah. Crisp white shirt.

C (55:52)

Hey, I'm not mad about the straight blonde hair parted down the middle.

B (55:55)

You always better. Yeah.

C (55:57)

One of the most interesting things about Carolyn Bessette is you can't hear her voice anywhere. She wouldn't give in any interviews.

B (56:06)

Yeah, that's pretty.

C (56:08)

That was her move of power.

B (56:09)

And then I also think about their mother, because the mother lost both her daughters in that plane crash.

C (56:16)

Beyond.

B (56:18)

And I think about.

C (56:20)

And that surviving sister, she doesn't do interviews. The mother doesn't do any. They're very private. But when you read the book, Carolyn, you're gonna get a whole idea of what she was up against. Married into the family. That is Like a good. You're gonna go on a plain book.

B (56:37)

I told you about how my friend dated, like, his really good friend?

C (56:41)

I think so. Yeah.

B (56:42)

Yeah. That's. I always. And that she was who I called when the plane was, quote, unquote, missing.

C (56:48)

Yeah.

B (56:48)

And they were no longer together, but she had gone to his apartment, hung out with Caroline, and before she passed, had told me some interesting stories where definitely they had, like, a feisty relationship, and she was there when Princess Diana was killed. They're all hanging out in JFK's apartment. And Caroline was like, this is why we have to do something. That's when it was very much believed the reason for Princess Diana's death was overzealous photographers.

C (57:25)

Well, now we know that that was an issue Darlin had.

B (57:29)

Yes. Yeah. And, you know, whatever. That. Again, I don't know if they. If do. What do we think about Princess Diana now? Is it because the driver was drunk or was it because he was drinking at the hotel before and he chose to speed, or he was. I think it was both. I think he was. I think he was a little bit intoxicated, and he chose to go faster to avoid the paparazzi.

C (57:54)

And there's issues. Some. A lot of people say that there was somebody that moved lights or something, so it affected. You know, there was like a burst of light, which would have affected his.

B (58:04)

Sight, the driver, but. So that was a big conversation of how she didn't like. And then. But then the other side was like, well, then why are you living in a townhome?

C (58:15)

Because he insisted on it that you.

B (58:17)

Could walk right out.

C (58:18)

He wanted.

B (58:19)

Shouldn't you have had a more secure building in New York?

C (58:21)

He didn't want to have security. He wanted to just take his bike and go out. And so they were in conflict with each other about how comfortable they felt in the city, how much she wanted to be available to press. I think she was really battling, wanting to have a career of her own. And I. Had she lived, I think she would have probably been the kind of person who makes documentary films.

B (58:44)

Yeah, it's been like. But very behind the scenes.

C (58:47)

Behind the scenes.

B (58:47)

You don't think she would have had a podcast by now?

C (58:50)

I don't know. I think she was having a really hard time. I think she thought it was gonna be something that it. Actually.

B (58:57)

I personally don't think they would have made it.

C (58:59)

Maybe not.

B (59:00)

I think that it's like, she would have just been like, this life isn't for me.

C (59:03)

No. Her mother was like, I don't know if this is really what you want to do. She wasn't excited about the idea of her marrying him.

B (59:10)

Yeah. I think he would have been pushing, Pushing for a child. And I think she would have been like, I almost like that scene in the Godfather where. Godfather two.

C (59:21)

Yeah.

B (59:21)

Where she's like, I don't want to bring another child into this life.

C (59:25)

Yeah.

B (59:26)

And I think she might have been like, I don't know, who knows? I mean, it's.

C (59:31)

Yeah.

B (59:31)

I don't mean to be insensitive to talk about their love, but when you just look at, like at our age, kind of knowing the pattern of life, like, yeah, if. So if you're not on the same page, it's hard, you know?

C (59:43)

Well, I interviewed the author of Carolyn, so people can read the book and kind of get their own interpretation. And then I asked the author a ton of questions.

B (59:52)

And so you think from that, from that, that she really. What? But did she. Did she. Did she think that she would handle it better and then once it continued, she realized she couldn't handle it as well or what? Like, why did she go forward with it?

C (60:09)

I think she was.

B (60:10)

I mean, I'm sure she loved him.

C (60:12)

I think she really loved him.

B (60:13)

And what's her not to love? Like, he's gorgeous and charming and funny. So famous side. He's ideal for. 99.9% of the women on this earth would like to be with someone that looked and acted like him.

C (60:25)

I think external factors really affected their relationship, and I think they were really struggling when they. When they died. I think they were at a really low point in the relationship, but I think there was real, real love and devotion there.

B (60:40)

And the also thing is, back then it was all magazines and tabloids and things. There wasn't social media. And in this day and age, you can delete your Instagram, you can put your phone away, you don't have to look at it. But back then, you were walking past the big news things. You did have to turn on the tv, watch the news and see yourself on it. Like, there really was no way of escaping that kind of tabloidy machine of the 90s, especially when it's about you and hearing the things that weren't true or speculation or knowing that any story about them or what they're wearing or going to an event would get so much, you know, are so valuable that these people are dependent on, like, getting your photo and talking to you. And then the fact that the George magazine wasn't doing well. Nobody does want to read a whole magazine about politicians trying to make politics sexy.

C (61:36)

By the way, I went to college hoping that I would work at George magazine. I went to school in dc. I have the inaugural issue in my house like I am was devoted with.

B (61:45)

Cindy Crawford as George Washington and a.

C (61:48)

Fan so happen in my garage at home. I was obsessed. But the reality was he wasn't sophisticated enough in terms of business to operate a magazine. It was totally over his head.

B (61:59)

Yeah, so interesting. Well Kate, you are the best. Tell everybody where if they have not discovered you already, how they can follow you and get all your good info.

C (62:10)

So Reality Life with Kate Casey Daily Podcast. I give you reality shows, documentaries, interviews, tell you at the top of the week what to watch interviews throughout the rest of the week. My what to watch list is at katecasey.substack.com I've got a great Facebook group, Reality Life with K. Casey and find me on social media and Mother of five.

B (62:29)

Mother of five and delight. Thank you and everybody. You find me@heathermcdonnell.net make sure that you subscribe and to the YouTube as well as anywhere you listen to podcasts. Spread the word, leave a review, do all the nice things. Love you. Bye.

C (63:06)

Foreign.

D (63:12)

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