← Juicy Crimes with Heather McDonald
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Hello and welcome to Juicy Crimes. On today's show, I'm going to cover a handful of crimes, some updates, some new ones that we haven't discussed. And then I have a great interview with a woman who really was there firsthand for the infamous Murdoch murders, as well as what she is working on now and how being part of that really changed the trajectory of her career. So let's first get into a documentary that is on Netflix right now, which is the number one movie happening right now. It's a documentary and it is the true story behind the investigation of Lucy Letby. And Lucy Letby was a young nurse living in the UK and she was in charge of NICU babies in an area of the hospital. She was very established. She was like in her early 30s, but she'd been a nurse for quite a while. So she actually was one of the more senior nurses on this floor. And the doc starts out with her being arrested. She lived at her mother's home. And of course you're wondering, like, what is this really all about? Well, trigger warning. It is very disturbing. She is accused of murdering seven children, Babies, infant babies, and attempting six more. Meaning that she would give some. Some of the accusations was that she would give insulin to babies who didn't need insulin, that she would overfeed the babies in which then they'd have trouble breathing. Some was that she was putting oxygen in them. And what happened was there was just these babies were not meant to not survive. So it would be like a shocking thing that would happen. And it happened at this one particular hospital that she was working at over and over again. And then when they really put it all together and realized, wow, she was there for all of these babies deaths and we think that she is responsible.
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Website, right, And I kept getting stuck. Either the tool was super fast but didn't let me change anything, or it was powerful but so confusing. Then I found Wix Harmony. It's wild. You can let AI do stuff for you or grab the controls yourself. You can also tell Aria, your AI agent, what you're thinking and everything just comes together. Try it out for free@wix.com Harmony that's wix.com Harmony this episode of Juicy Crimes is sponsored by Rakuten. Rakuten is the most rewarding way to shop because you can stack cash back on top of sales and deals at your favorite stores like Neiman Marcus, Target, Bloomingdale's. It's so easy to use and you get your cash back sent to you through paypal or check download the free rakuten app or go to rakuten.com to start saving today. That's r a k u R t e n rakuten.com so she gets arrested. And what makes the documentary very interesting is that we do see the initial interrogation. And you know what's interesting is that they're English, so even when they're, like, handcuffing her and taking her away, it's very polite. It's like, this is just for purposes, you know, just to get you so you're not getting away. This is too tight, you know? And then she's sitting there and she's really comatose. Now, there's always two ways to think of this. Is it because you are so guilty that you're like, oh, my evilness is cut up with me, or is it really like you just are in a state of shock and you can't believe this is happening? So, you know, there's definitely some moments that we see that you think, my gosh, she's guilty. Like, how does she, you know? Oh, I don't remember. I don't recall. Um, yet they had text messages when she. When one of the babies passed where she wrote a friend and said, I can't believe it. It's so sad. The dad is screaming and crying. You know, this is just unimaginable, unimaginable pain. So then you're like, if she did this, is it, what is she getting out of it? Is she playing God? Is she is a single woman? Is this somehow. Is she envious of women that can have young babies and have a family? Is it just a mental illness? Did she try it once and is now somehow into having this feeling? Or maybe she likes being the hero. Maybe she didn't mean for the child to. To pass, but then be the hero that saves the baby the whole way through. Now, this all happened over 10 years ago. And what's interesting about this documentary is there's these two women speaking. One is one of the mothers of the babies who passed and it was allegedly murdered. And the other one is Lucy's good friend, who kind of is the only person that's letting us know that Lucy was a normal girl. They went to nursing school together. They enjoyed doing stuff while out of nursing school that they've kept in touch this whole time that she's been in prison. You know, she misses her cat, she misses her parents like she's a normal person. There was also evidence, not in the doc, but that I researched that some belief she might have been having an affair with a married doctor. And then there's a lot that go off on her writings, which is when she was. She was incarcerated for like a year until the trial, and that they were looking at all her writings. And one would argue that she's guilty. The other would say that she's like, I can't believe that I'm being put in this nightmare and these people are nightmares. And it's just very. It's very interesting because then like the third quarter of the. Of the second half of the documentary, you really kind of wonder, is there enough evidence? Was this just negligence on the hospital in general? Did they. Were they not equipped to have babies this ill and that many of them on the unit? And she just happened to be there because she was an experienced nurse that kind of floated around and could do many different things on the floor. So it is ongoing right now, the appeals, but she was convicted. And of course, it was a salacious story and her face was all over the tabloids. And the most prolific baby serial killer as a female, except for this one other woman in all of England. And it's just such a bizarre thing when you think of a healthcare provider doing this. And this is. You know, there's been many cases like this over the years, oftentimes more oftentimes with elderly people. So her family sticks by her, this friend sticks by. By her. And then what I noticed in the documentary that was interesting is for both the mother of the victim, one of the babies, and also her good friend, it said digitally anonymous. Anonymousized. So I'm like, are these people what is. And I was really looking at it, and it's kind of interesting. So they did a documentary, but instead of interviewing the actual two people that I'm describing to you, they just took their words and put it in an AI actor who was very pretty and had glowy skin and put them in a setting instead of having it. You know, instead of having their identity maybe be masked, like in the olden days, someone would have like a wig on or sunglasses, or they'd be like, oh, yeah, I knew the mobster. You know, they like, change the voice. They just do this now. And I wonder how much more we're going to see of that type of thing in documentaries. Or what if the director's just like, this person is pretty unattractive and therefore it's not really telling the story we want. Let's just digitally anonymize them and put in a pretty person that is 30 and has glowing skin and tells their story and you just are like more, you just. It's easy on the eye. It's very, very interesting because you, you wouldn't think that they would do it in a documentary, but they did. So definitely I did a quick overview for you guys just as something that I think that is pretty interesting and I'd love to hear if your mind changes in the second half of the show, which is where they then really get into the appeal and have other medical experts and stuff come and say that they're really. No one ever saw her give these things to the babies. No one. You know, so just. You're just basically going on circumstantial evidence and she is getting, she's in there for life and she's only 36 years old. So we'll see what happens with that. Obviously this doc should, shouldn't hurt her. It should only maybe help her appeal if that. Okay. Brendan Banfield, who I did the juicy crimes with Shannon about, he has been convicted of a double. Double murder. To remind you, this one just was the most twisted story. It was an FBI. No, sorry, an IRS agent and his wife who was a nurse who did the night shifts. They had a four year old daughter. They hired a Brazilian nanny and according to the prosecution, he and the nanny started having an affair and decided to come up with this elaborate scheme where they went on a fetish website called FetLife and basically were catfishing his wife Christina, acting like they were her saying that she has a fantasy of a man coming into the home, coming into her bedroom as she's sleeping there and graping her and, and that's her fantasy and bring the rope and everything. So this guy is also on the FetLife thing. His last name was Ryan and he is like down for this kink. He shows up, they. He's doing what he thinks she wants and then they come and he acts like a hero, shoots the man. The man isn't dead. So then the nanny comes and finishes off the man while he takes the knife because the Christina told him to bring the knife and then ends his own wife's life. So here she thinks she's really thinks this guy is assaulting her, thinks that her life is in danger. Her husband comes to the rescue. She's like, thank God. And then he starts stabbing her. So they tell the police, oh my God, my wife was having an, having an affair or having fetishes. This weird guy came in, he was in the midst of stabbing her. I got there just in time. Unfortunately, I couldn't save my wife at that point. This man had already done the damage. But the nanny came and finished off the man. They get the nanny, who admits to all of the scheme and is the star witness. And she has not been sentenced yet, but she will be for manslaughter, not first degree. But they did get him on first degree double murder. The jury was very quick in their decision. They rested on a Friday and had the answer. I think by Monday, after nine hours of deliberation, they did convict him of the double murder. Now in he did take the stand. I think at that point he felt, I have nothing to lose. And he was sticking by his story. And his defense was like, every time that Christina wrote on her computer or on her phone, corresponding as Christina to this fetlife, it was when she was at home in the proximity of her computer or phone. And the prosecution said that's how savvy and manipulative this guy was and methodical in planning it. He made sure that every time he hopped on her computer, it was while she, she was home. Now, she might have been in the shower, she might have been taking a nap. So in his, when he took the stand, he says the nanny hits on him. She starts to scooch her chair next to him, and then as he's going up to the bedroom to go to bed, she walked into his bedroom and then they started having an affair. He said he'd had several affairs before the nanny, and he wasn't serious about the nanny. He loved his wife, she had had affairs, she knew about his affair. So certainly he wouldn't end his wife's life over this nanny affair, since he has so many. And that he said when he came home that day, he heard what he thought was his wife having sex, having an affair, which to each his own. Like, I guess he was thinking, oh, well, I had an affair. I mean, this is what he's trying to say. Like. But then he heard more screams or whatever and he thought something might be wrong. And that's when he went up, saw that his wife was being attacked by this guy, tried to kill the guy, tried to save her, but it was too late. That was his story. Well, the jury didn't buy it. He did get convicted and he will be sentenced to. I think it will be, I'm sure it'll be for life, two times over, since it was. He also was convicted of killing the poor guy that just thought he was doing a fantasy, consensual fantasy on a fetish website. So very sad. Remember the story about the poor girl that, that was found dead in her bunk bed on the cruise ship. This was very disturbing. She was a 15 year old girl and in the cabin on the cruise ship was her, her dad, her biological dad, her stepmother, her biological brother, and then her stepbrother who was a teenager as well. They didn't know where she was. They couldn't find her. They were concerned. And then they found her wrapped in a blanket underneath the bunk bed and they, they have now arrested the stepbrother. So imagine this family and, and what they're going through and the feeling that you'd have if you're the mother and maybe you liked, maybe you were liked this, this your husband's next wife. Maybe you loved that they were a blended family. Maybe there was no concern of any kind. Just absolutely terrible. And he has been arrested, so we'll see where that goes. But they believe that he is the only one responsible. Okay, a little bit about the Epstein stuff. I really just. It's so overwhelming, the material. I mean, there's no way that I will be ever able to cover it all, nor that would I want to. And there's so much information and there's so many people that are putting out information based on what they're finding in the files. Some of it is a little conspiracy, some is putting two and two together, some. Some is connecting all the dots. But the latest thing is there many people still believe that Epstein is alive. There's photos of him with a tattoo on his arm. And then when they showed his dead body after he ended his life, he didn't have a tattoo. But was that tattoo in that one photo, was that AI? Was that even real? Who knows? Now there's this man that looks like it could be him, who with longer hair walking around Israel with what appears to be bodyguards. And these photos are floating around and people are saying, oh my God, he's alive now. We always knew he was alive. He's alive. The next person would say, no, that's AI. Someone's putting that out to distract us from the real horrors that went on. The amount of people that are truly mention as far as actually attending parties, which based on the emails appears that yes, there was kinky sex going on, there was sex with young women or children, but very young because it'd be like, oh, that the. Your littlest girl got quite naughty and things like this. And it just, the, it just, it's just people running the world. It's billionaires, it's elites, it's like all of them were down to do this. It was like what stays, what happens on Epstein island stays on Epstein island kind of philosophy. And you're just to wrap your brain around it. I'm just like, I just can't believe that so many people were doing this and didn't think anything of it. And we know that Ghislaine would, would, would get the young girls and recruit the young girls. Whether they were paid for a one time massage or they were truly like human trafficked and they really couldn't get out. But even she, you know, according to people that she engaged in friendships and book writing and stuff, she said, oh, I, I would find these girls and you know, and then they would service Jeffrey because he needs to have three orgasms a day. And I just can't do that. And then someone would be like, really? Are you okay with that? Oh yeah. Because the girls are nothing. They're nothing. And that is what I think happened with any of the participants in this. I truly believe that they see themselves in such a different league of life among humans that they just thought that, you know what? This is what we do. This is what you do. When you get to this level, you can have anything you want. And this is something, it's taboo, it's wrong. And these people that we are abusing are not really people. I mean, I don't think of them as my friends or family or my kids. They're just here to service us. And that is the only way I can think that these people were okay doing this. And then coming back to the America, doing their job, being a delight, going to church, being a politician, being a banker, being a professor, having a wife, having kids, and then getting on the computer and being like, hey Jeffrey, when can we have our fun again? It is. I really, truly have to take a break from it. I don't know how much more I can cover of it. It's just so disturbing. And you know, then you look at Eyes Wide Shut, the movie and like, now do I want to watch that again? I never understood it when it came out, but he, Stanley Kubrick died shortly after putting that movie out. And there's even 15 minutes that was supposed to be in his final cut that then the studio cut out. And nobody knows what those 15 minutes were, but it was about a bunch of elites that wore masks that did like sexual things and I believe some type of human sacrifice or weird. It is just. And it was just all in front of us. And then people wonder what is going on with where in the world Is Savannah Guthrie's mother? If you remember, there was. That was a element of the Today show. Where in the world is Matt Lauer? Before he assaulted a girl whose book is out now? Anyway, he would go to different parts of the city of the country and he'd find a story. So where in the world is Savannah Guthrie's mom? It's been over a week now. It's very scary to wonder what is happening with her. Is it the brother in law and the sister? They were the last to see her. Is it like I predicted, some weird guy that was just hoping to make money and thought bitcoin would be a way to do it? Is the letter that went to TMZ just completely fake to start? Was she killed accidentally and then they made it look like a kidnap? Does this have anything to do with the fact that Savannah Guthrie was the first mainstream reporter to interview victims of Jeffrey Epstein and now this all came out. Does it have to do with anything with the Olympics? She was supposed to go to the Olympics. If it is a family member, possibly this brother in law and her sister, how horrible is that? You're the one who married the loser that ended, you know, that took your mother's life. While your sister is America's sweetheart. On the Today show, you know, every president has been involved, and then you have, you know, the today show, Jenna Bush, you know, crying about Savannah, which I believe it's all real. I believe the feelings of being scared for Savannah's missing mother are real. But it's just the timing of it all is just. It's overwhelming and just insane. This is coke. Zero sugar with real Coca Cola taste and zero sugar. Listen closely. Hear those bubbles? That's the sound of delicious. Real Coca Cola taste and zero sugar. Ice cold.
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Real Coca Cola taste. Zero sugar. Juicy Crimes is sponsored by Daily look, the number one highest rated premium personal styling service for women. With Daily look, you get your own dedicated personal stylist to curate a box of clothes based on your body shape preferences and lifestyles. This is not an algorithm. This is a real personal stylist. You get the same stylist every time. You Juicy Crime listeners head to DailyLook.com and use the code Juicy Crimes for 50% off your first order. That's 50 crazy. That's a lot, you guys. That's 50% off with my code Juicy Crimes with Daily look, try up to 12 premium pieces per box in the comfort of your own home, saving you time and effort. So whether you need something extra effortlessly chic, for a day or an office. Maybe you got a baby shower, maybe you got something fun coming up you can upgrade from last year's stretched out sweaters and get something new. Daily look has got you covered. I think this is so exciting to have it come right to your house. And I really do love trying on the clothes. So many times when I'm looking for an outfit at the mall, I'm rushed, I'm stressed, I don't have the proper undergarments or heels to see if this even works well or not. So this just makes it so fun. It's time to get your own personal stylist with Daily Look. Head to DailyLook.com to take your style quiz and use code juicy crimes for 50% off your first order. Once again, that's Daily Look.com for 50% off. And make sure you use my promo code Juicycrimes so they know I sent you one last time. Dailylook.com and and promo code Juicy Crimes. You guys know I love a great deal. I love to save money. It makes it so fun. And that is why I love Rakuten. Rakuten is the most rewarding way to shop because you can stack cash back on top of sales and deals at your favorite stores like Neiman Marcus, Target, Bloomingdale's. It's so easy to use and you get your cash back sent to you through paypal or check. The idea is simple. Stores pay Rakuten for sending them shoppers and Rakuten ships shares the money with you as cash back. Think fashion, beauty, electronics, home essentials, travel, dining and so much more. Signup is absolutely free and it takes just seconds. 17 million Rakuten members are already saving. In fact, members have earned over 4.6 billion in cash back. Now it's your turn. Start stacking sales on top of cash back and feel what it's like to know you're maximizing the savings. Download the free Rakuten app or go to rakuten.com to start saving today. That's R A K U t e n rackatan.com actor Timothy Busfield was indicted. Now he has been indicted on child sex abuse charges. He's the guy from west wing and 30, something, who the twin. The twin actor young boy said that he touched them inappropriately. Okay, well now I'm excited for you guys to hear this interview. The Murdaugh murders, which I'll explain at the top of the interview, are always been a fascinating juicy case and we have an insider that really answers some of those Questions. And then also a new crime that she has been working on. So here we go. All right, I'm very excited to talk to our next guest, Stephanie Tinsley, who has a great podcast called Everything They Missed. Welcome to the show, Stephanie.
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Thank you for having me.
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One thing that really interests me about your story, before we get to what your podcast is about, is that you are very close to the infamous Murdoch murders, which, to remind people there's been several TV shows made about them, but it involved a prominent man who lived in your community who was just convicted for shooting and killing his wife and son, and that it involved a Ponzi scheme. There was his personal addiction done. And it's just an insane story, and I know my audience is familiar with it, but what was your connection to it, Stephanie?
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So it was exciting, but. But from. From our end, it was. It was equally terrifying. So I am married to the trial attorney Mark Tinsley, and he. He knew Alex. And. And some people say Ella, some people say Alex. I say Alex Murdaugh. Mark. My. My husband Mark had filed a lawsuit against Alex Murdaugh. If you. If you remember the Netflix documentary that came out about the Murdaugh, the first half of the first season opens with the boat crash. And Mallory beach was the young woman who died in the boat crash. Paul Murdaugh, who was Alex's son, was driving the boat. And my husband is their family attorney. He had filed a wrongful death lawsuit against Alex for Mallory's death. And what we now know, we didn't know at the time, but what we now know, it was that lawsuit that my husband filed that was the motives for the murder. That was the motives for killing Paul and Maggie. Alex knew that because of this lawsuit, my husband was trying to get his financials. When you sue somebody for wrongful death, you're allowed to go over their financial situation. And when he asked for his financial statements, Alex knew that the financial crimes that he had been committing for the last decade were about to be exposed. By that time, he had stolen about $7 million from his clients. So when Mark filed the lawsuit three days before the hearing, where Alex was going to have to give them their financials, three days before the hearing, Paul and Maggie were murdered. And what we think and what people have. Have. Have put together is Alex is a classic sociopath. We truly believe that he thought by killing Paul and Maggie, with his son and wife dead, that people would feel sorry for him, empathize with his situation, and the lawsuit would go away and no one would know the difference. So Mark was quickly pulled into all of this media circus that surrounded the, the Murdaugh murders because of his affiliation with the lawsuit and with Alex.
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I did watch the Hulu series starring one of my favorite actresses, Patricia Arquette, who played the wife. I thought they did a great job, if you have not seen it yet, in really sharing all the different aspects of the story because as it was coming out, there was the crime that happened with Mallory beach, who died when Paul was driving the boat recklessly. That, then there was his own law practice that we later found out he was stealing from his clients. There was his housekeeper who died tragically and then he ended up scamming his, her, her sons. All of it I thought was done so well in the series on Hulu. I really think they put it together quite well. One thing that I found so interesting this series, and you would know better since you're husband was representing the family of Mallory beach, is they made that offer of $10 million for Murdoch to pay. And it seemed like he was going to and it seemed like Murdoch's father wanted him to, but then he backed out. Can you explain a little bit about that? What was going on there?
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You know, it's hard to say. I, I would, I would suspect that he didn't have the $10 million. But Mark was offering a payment plan. He could have paid the beaches a million dollars a year for 10 years. He didn't want to take it. And I, I think he already had the, the plan in place. Even if he would have taken a settlement or the payment plan, Mark still would have been able to review his finances and his financial crimes still, still would have been exposed. So we believe that Alex from the very beginning thought if Paul and Maggie are gone, all of this is going to go away. So I think he turned down the $10 million because he knew Paul and Maggie were going to die.
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So do you think that Alex was hoping to get a big insurance payout from the death of Maggie and Paul?
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No, there was no insurance. There was no insurance there. He. Yeah, it was senseless.
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The only thing I could think of that might have been going through Alex's brain being that I believe he's a sociopath is. I believe sometimes sociopaths that murder somehow justify that they're doing their victims a favor. And I just wonder if in killing Paul, his own son, did he think that maybe with the death of Mallory beach and that he wasn't doing well in school, that he was just going to be a screw up his whole life and wasn't going to succeed. So therefore he was doing him a favor somehow by killing him. But I just really don't understand why, how anyone could think that. What are your thoughts?
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I think what we know about sociopaths is everything is transactional. And I believe he, you know, thought Paul and Maggie were his property and the world revolves around him. It's also narcissistic. Everything revolves around him. So it was just a transactional thing for me to move forward and live my life as an attorney. This has to happen this and the only way that my financial crimes will not be exposed is if this lawsuit is dropped. And Mark would never drop the lawsuit. But when Paul and Maggie died, he did drop the lawsuit.
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So they never really did get anything for that wrongful death.
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So they never got anything from Alex. They got a settlement from the bar that had sold the, the kids alcohol and they got a very large settlement from the convenience store that sold the alcohol to the teenagers.
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So was this the first time that your husband's career as an attorney really became such a big part of your life and so at a big part of what was going on in the media?
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So he has, he's been a trial attorney for 20 years in South Carolina. This was his highest profile case before Paul and Maggie had died. The boat crash case was huge anyway, locally because Maggie Mallory was a young, beautiful girl. The convenience store that sold alcohol to the kids was owned by this very high profile man who was fighting it. So Mark was very much in the news and very much comfortable in talking to the media and being in these high profile scenarios. But nothing could have prepared him for the media firestorm that descended on him after the Murdoch murders. He, at that time, I had quit my job and was really totally devoted to doing his media and doing his press. Although I had no experience at all. I was just. All of these incoming press requests from. We had Dateline at the house as Netflix was filming at our home. 48 hours, 2020. Just any, you know, the crime shows that we all know and love had descended on, on our home. And so it was, it was quite, you know, an interesting time. I've, I've been a fan of true crime since the 80s, so I was, you know, interested that, that all of this press was happening, but it was also still terrifying at the same time because there was a good portion of this time that we didn't know yet that, that Alex had killed Paul and Maggie. And so we were fearful of our own lives. You know, is, are people just being murdered that are affiliated with the boat crash. So it was a scary time.
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So what I remember is when Maggie and Paul were first found shot dead near the dog kennels, the first thought was, with all this crazy stuff going on and especially with the boat crash that killed Mallory beach, could this be a revenge killing to get back at Paul and maybe Maggie was just collateral damage or get back at the family in general and who might have this kind of revenge? That's what I remember.
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So in the 911 call, right off the bat, Alex says, this is related to the boat crash. My son was in. My son was. Was in this boat crash. And his life, his life had been threatened. And really, you know, Paul had. When Mallory was killed, Paul had a lot of backlash on social media. He was still out in the community drinking. And people would write into Mark and say, we, you know, we see him, Paul, at this bar drinking. So it was believable. It was believable that someone had killed Paul and perhaps Maggie was collateral damage that was associated to the boat crash. As a true crime fan, I always think the husband did it. So as soon as I heard that they had died, that was my first thought. But I hadn't known Alex for as long as my husband had, who known him for decades. And he thought, never in a million years could could Alex kill Paul or Maggie. So it wasn't until, you know, Alex wasn't arrested until a year later. It wasn't until about six months that nothing was adding up. Nothing was adding up. And then the financial crimes were uncovered. Once the financial crimes were uncovered, it all made sense to everyone.
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So basically the thought is he had just a couple days before he would have to reveal all of his finances because of this lawsuit that was being brought on from Mallory Beach's family. And with that, it would get revealed that he has been running basically a legal Ponzi scheme for years. And his father, who was part of the law firm, wouldn't. Didn't know and it would all get revealed. And therefore you think that is why he felt his only way he could get out of it was to kill his. His son and wife to distract from this or get sympathy. So since you grew up knowing this family, was he a likable guy, Alex? Were they friendly people? Were they well liked in the community? What were they like as a family?
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Yes. So Hampton is a very small community. About 20,000 people live there. So everybody knows everybody. So the Murdaugh name was the biggest name in the community. For generations, they had been solicitors. And so what a solicitor would mean to you as a da, a district attorney, but in South Carolina, they call it a solicitor. So for 100 years, the Murdaughs had been the DA's, the solicitors, law enforcement in this region. So they were very well known. They had the largest law firm in Hampton. Any, you know, public event, the Watermelon Festival, Christmas. I mean, they were always given the community, you know, hams at Christmas, or they would be at the Watermelon Festival shaking hands. And Alex knew everybody's name, everybody knew Maggie. So they were very, very, very well known in the community.
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What I thought was crazy is when this horrible tragedy happened on the boat, at least it was portrayed in the series, that Alex Murdaugh went and was trying to talk to the kids and trying to change their story to get it so that they wouldn't be pointing the fault at Paul, his son.
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Yeah, that's exactly right. So Paul was driving the boat, but his cousin Connor, there were three boys and three girls on the boat. It was. They were having a date night. And it's very common for kids to go out on the boat and cruise around. So Alex was trying to get the kids to say that Connor was driving the boat and not Alex, I mean, and not Paul. And so that was his intention of going straight down to the hospital that night. And Paul was driving. But Alex was really wanting Connor to take the fall.
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I can't really recall when it actually came to trial and he was on trial for the murder of his wife and son. What was his defense?
- [40:52]
A
So his line of defense was, I didn't do it. I wasn't there. It wasn't me. And, you know, it was two. Two vigilantes that were associated with the boat crash. I mean, Alex was always saying it wasn't him. He was never there. So going into the trial, it was. I mean, it was a media circus, if you can imagine. This is a small town and it's not prepared for hundreds of journalists descending. So it was. It was a circus. The trial lasted for a couple of months. My husband testified in the trial. I went almost every day. And it wasn't until about mid trial that it was exposed. Someone had audio that connected to Alex being there right before the murders. So he had always said, I was never there. I wasn't up at the. I wasn't up at the dog kennels. And indeed, they had found something on Paul's phone with Alex's voice putting him at the dog kennels right before the murders. So that, you know, that was about all the Jury needed. And when Alex testified, he didn't do himself any favors.
- [42:05]
B
I also remember the whole story of the opiates and that he was addicted to the opiates and somehow that would help his sentencing in the end. When he was convicted, what did he get?
- [42:18]
A
He. Yeah, at the end he got convicted to life. And the fight, he got convicted of all the financial crimes. So even if he wouldn't have been convicted for murdering Paul and Maggie, the financial crimes have. Have put him in, in prison for the rest of his life as well. So you know, the community was, was devastated by it, but they were, they were glad to see him behind bars. But it's, it, it has really devastated the community. And you know, I agree there they've been some, the Hulu special was, was really good series. The, the Netflix, hbo, all of them really painted a true picture of, of, of what happened. And you know, the case that I covered that was kind of coming right out of this was inspired I guess is the right word to say by, by everything that I had gone through. There were a lot of victims in the story besides Paul and Maggie. Paul and Maggie very much were the victims, but the whole community was, was really revictimized again.
- [43:27]
B
I really thought a sad element of this whole story was the poor hard working housekeeper who fell on the pres. On his property and then went to the hospital, but just never recovered and did pass. And then he went to her sons and they were so nice thinking that he was just this great employer. And he said, listen, I want to help you guys out. This is an attorney. You're going to meet with him and you're going to sue me. And they were like no, no, no, we won't do that. Mr. Myrndog, you were such so great to our mother. He goes, no, that way I won't. I have home insurance. So you guys will get the home insurance that way. And then they did. But then of course he. Then how did that work? He took the money from them.
- [44:18]
A
Yes. So, so the boys in that scenario, the Satterfield boys had gotten several, several millions of dollars, but they were not aware of it. They were not aware of that. So he didn't tell them how much it was. So they thought, I think perhaps they thought they got $100,000, but it was in the millions. And that, you know, that that may have been the first one, that may have been the first financial crime, but he did that with such ease that he was able to do it again and again and again. And how he was able to do it in his law firm not notice? That's a question that has not been answered.
- [45:00]
B
Do you know if they ever did get that money or did they spend it already?
- [45:05]
A
I believe he had spent it already. By the time they caught him, he was over $300,000 overdrawn in his bank accounts. I mean, his bank accounts were just, you know, overdrawn by hundreds of thousands of dollars. So there was. There's been rumors that some of that money may have been hidden in the Bahamas. Some of that money may be. May have been in cash hidden around their property. But from all. Everything that I've. I've heard, there's. There was never any money that was uncovered to really give back to the financial victims.
- [45:42]
B
Do you know where the. Their other son is now, the one that survived? And does he come around the community? How is he received?
- [45:51]
A
So the other son is Buster? Yes. So Buster recently got married. He recently had a baby. I believe he's still living in South Carolina. His wife is also an attorney. Buster had gone to law school, but had been thrown out of law school because he was caught cheating. And so I don't know what he does for work, but, you know, I hate it for him too. It. He lost his. His mother and his. He lost everybody. He lost his entire family. So I. I'm sure it's just been devastating for him to keep living through it too.
- [46:29]
B
Wow. I kind of think about what if your daughter was dating Buster or wanting to marry Buster, even if he's the nicest guy in the world to be coming from a family with that kind of horrible double murder result is just something a lot to take in. And not to think that there'd be some lasting psychological results or even genes that could go on with Buster, as horrible as that may sound. Well, now let's talk about the case that you're working on for your podcast. Tell us a little bit about that.
- [47:07]
A
So. So this podcast that, that just released is called Everything they Missed. And it, it really was born from the inspiration of all of the journalists that I had encountered over the Murdoch trial. I'm not a journalist. I've no experience in investigation. I've never done a podcast before. All of this was my very first time. I, I'd been in venture capital. I've been in finance my entire career. And after, you know, all of the Murdoch trial kind of settled down and I had an opportunity to step back. I had met a lot of really great journalists, but I had met a lot of really reckless ones. A lot of ones that I believed re victimized people, that when they would call my husband for interviews, they, you know, they weren't prepared. You could tell they. They didn't know much about the case. They were just wanting clicks and headlines. And we had Netflix, you know, filming for about six months. And I really. To see what producers do, what directors do. And being a true crime fan for decades, I kind of sat back and thought, I wonder if I could do this. I wonder if I could do something like this. And if I could, what would it look like? And how could I tell a story that was as true crimey as I wanted it to be, but also didn't exploit the people that were involved? And I decided that if a case found me, that I would pursue it. And I spent half of my time in Nashville, Tennessee. One day, my son came home from school and said that his friend Lucy had got up at lunch and was talking about his father, who worked for the Innocence Project in Tennessee. And I thought, I don't want to do a wrongful conviction story, because those aren't the true crimey stories that I love. But I went to visit him anyway, and he told me about a handful of cases that he had touched, and he had talked about the Andrew Hayes case. And what really struck me, especially in wrongful convictions, if the wrong person is incarcerated, that means the real killer is still out there. And that's what intrigued me, is who is the real killer then? And, you know, it's not just a case of how. How do wrongful convictions happen, but where is the real killer and who's going after that person? Almost always, when a wrongful conviction is exposed, they do not go after the real killer because the Innocence Project does not have the resources to do that. So I had heard some audio of who they suspected was the real killer. And it's the very first thing you hear at the beginning of episode one of my show, when I heard this woman's voice. It was a man that. That was convicted. But when I heard this woman's voice and the Innocence Project was saying all of the evidence points to her, I decided I was going to hire my own private investigator, and I was going to turn an investigation toward finding this woman. And as much as this story, it's 10 episodes, it was really September 15th, and I just dropped the final four episodes a couple of weeks ago. This story very much focuses on Danny Harris, who was murdered. It's also the story of Andrew Hayes, who was wrongfully convicted, but it's really the story of Sarah. And are we Going to get Sarah and the hunt for Sarah.
- [50:33]
B
So what is the story of the man who was murdered?
- [50:38]
A
Danny Harris was 55 years old and, and was from Memphis, Tennessee. And he was a classic southern dad, classic all American. He has four sons. He was in the military, he was in the Tennessee Air National Guard. He had deployed troops to 9, 11. Just an all around wonderful man. When he retired, alcoholism got the best of him. And although, you know, alcoholism runs in my family too. And so I wanted to be very careful of how we talked about that and not do any kind of victim blaming. But it was Danny's alcoholism that really led to the circumstances that he ended up in. His family was estranged from him because of his drinking. He had hired who he thought was a caregiver, a woman named Tammy. But she wasn't just a caregiver. She was also a criminal and a prostitute. And when Danny would get so drunk and out of it, she would have men come in and prostitute out of his home. So he was killed on October 20. They did not find his body until two months later when they were doing an eviction. They were serving an eviction. Danny hadn't paid rent for two months. In Memphis, when you don't pay your rent, the sheriff's department goes with you to put all of your belongings out on the street. So when they opened up his apartment door, the door was locked, the alarm system was on, which makes you think the last person who left knew the victim. The AC was cranked down to 50 degrees, so it was very cold. So even though it was a record heat wave in Memphis that summer, no one, no one smelled his body. No one detected that he had. He had been murdered and he had been beaten with a hammer, blood spatter everywhere. And they realized that his truck was. Was gone. When they realized who he was, they also discovered that two of the four sons were police officers. So there was a lot happening at the scene. You know, this very respected man who hired a caregiver who turned out to be a prostitute, who they later found in his stolen truck. His sons are in law enforcement. You know, all of this would make you think they were going to have a very meticulous investigation, but they really didn't. Once they found the truck and found the woman in it, she. She was staying at Andrew Hayes's home. And Andrew went up to the police station to answer some questions. And even though that he didn't know the victim, had never been to the victim's house because he was a young black man with a 62 IQ very low IQ, no experience with police, did not understand that waving your Miranda rights could mean that the police could lie to you. After a 27 hour interrogation, he was just delirious. I mean, think about it, 27 hours. There's been nights that I haven't slept but four hours, and I feel crazy. So you can imagine, 27 hours later, he was just begging them, what, what do you want me to say? How can I go home? And they were saying, tell us what we want to hear. And they had shown him crime scene photos. So Andrew confesses, but what he confesses to does. It doesn't even match evidence at the scene. So he ends up going to trial and, and getting convicted of, of murdering Danny Harris, even though he had never even met Danny.
- [54:32]
B
Wow. The way you describe this, here you are in kind of this new genre of being a detective, a journalist, trying to figure this all out. It almost sounds like a movie. What was that like for you? Was it terrifying?
- [54:46]
A
It, it was exciting because I did feel like, you know, I've watched every Dateline. I've listened to every Crime Junkies, I've listened to every, you know, anything that you can imagine. And so coming out of all of the Murdoch stuff and then coming into this, when the Innocence Project had shown me their evidence, and then when I hired my own private investigator and I live very close to, to, to Memphis, part of what I, why I wanted to do this story is I wanted to go to, into all of these homes. I wanted to be face to face with everybody that I was interviewing. And when my private investigator and I located Sarah and it looked like, you know, and they had. The Innocence Project had been working on getting Andrew a new trial since 2023, and his legal option had pretty much run out. So I knew that unless we find Sarah and get Sarah somehow to slip up, Andrew's case is, is pretty much dead in the water. So when I was able to locate Sarah and, you know, all of this was it, it was, it was pretty intimidating and pretty scary. I mean, the investigator that I hired was also doubled as my bodyguard at times because Memphis is one of the most dangerous places in the nation. So I was finding myself in homes and situations and trying to get answers, but equally scared of my surroundings and, but it was more the drive of I have to keep going. If I stop, no one else. Who, if, if I stop now, who else is going to ask these questions? And even though I don't have experience, experience as a podcaster, as an investigator, there was still that gut instinct of I always Felt like I knew where to go next. I'm not sure why, but I always knew where to go next, and it was the most unlikely. I don't want to give the whole story away, but I will say that the victim's son, his name is Stephen Harris, had found out that I was doing the podcast and was very concerned about how I was going to portray his father. And he also had questions about Andrew Hayes's guilt because he had sat through the trial 15 years earlier. So when he knew that I had located Sarah and found Sarah, he wanted to go with me to confront Sarah, and we had made plans to do so, but he didn't trust me, and he, in fact, what I later would discover was trying to sabotage the podcast. He contacted Sarah himself and told her, don't talk to Stephanie. Don't trust Stephanie. So here I was, a week away from going to Oklahoma to confront her, and the victim's son is now standing in my way and telling this woman, don't talk to her. So the beginning of the podcast, the first six episodes are very much Andrew's story and the murder, but when we go into episode seven, it's this very psychological thriller of what is Stephen Harris doing and is he sabotaging the podcast? And I very much went from telling the story to being pulled into the story story.
- [58:22]
B
And I'm curious, what was your husband thinking of you on this crazy journey? And you're in these scary situations. How was that for the both of you as a couple?
- [58:34]
A
In the beginning, I was very careful with what I was telling him. I was very careful with what I was telling anybody. I, I. For about three or four months, I was doing all of this in secret because. For a couple of reasons, because I had never done a podcast before, I didn't want anybody to tell me I couldn't do it. I didn't want anybody to discourage me. When he found out the extent of Andrew's story, I had told him, I need to. I need to sit down with Andrew in prison and look him in the eye and decide for myself if he's guilty or not. My husband drove me to. To the prison that day and sat out in the parking lot so I could talk to Andrew. Mark is such a. I mean, he. People know him all over the world for his trial skills. So I would lean on him when I was reading court documents. And while I was doing that, I would hit record because Mark would just start talking and saying really interesting things. I would just hit record. And by the time I was putting the story together. I was go back and listen to some of the things Mark would say and I decided just to put him into the show because he everything he was saying was just so interesting. So he made it into the show. A lot of the dangerous situations I was in, I really didn't share with him exactly how dangerous it was, but he knew very well into the story that Andrew's legal options were pretty slim and he knew my strategy and he also thought this podcast could be the only way Andrew is set free. So Mark very much became one of my biggest cheerleaders in this.
- [60:24]
B
Well, I'm very excited to listen to your podcast and thank you so much for sharing it with all of us today and where can they find it and listen to it?
- [60:35]
A
Yes, well thank you for having me. I'm such a huge fan of yours. Anyway, so you can find the show anywhere you get your podcast. It's called Everything They Missed and you can find me on social media at the Stephanie Tinsley and all the episodes are dropped so they are bingeable, which is the best way, I think, to listen to stories like this.
- [60:59]
B
Thank you again so much, Stephanie. I really appreciate you coming on Juicy Crimes.
- [61:04]
A
Absolutely. Thank you for having me.
- [61:08]
B
Foreign.
- [61:34]
A
Cute, but how about New Year New Money?
- [61:38]
B
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- [62:00]
A
Experian.