True Crime, Bad Decisions & Worse Alibis with Brandy and Julie

Summary

Juicy Crimes with Heather McDonald

Episode: True Crime, Bad Decisions & Worse Alibis with Brandy and Julie
Date: January 14, 2026
Guests: Brandy Howard, Julie Goldman
Host: Heather McDonald

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Episode Overview

In this lively episode of “Juicy Crimes,” Heather McDonald is joined by comedians Brandy Howard and Julie Goldman. Together, they dive into infamous and recent true crime stories, dissecting the absurd, shocking, and juicy details with their signature humor and insight. The episode explores the lighter side of otherwise dark incidents, weaving in high-profile cases, celebrity scandals, and personal stories about crime, obsession, betrayal, and flawed alibis.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Disappointment in Crime Dramatizations

[00:39 – 06:43]

• Heather critiques the recent Lifetime movie about the Karen Read case, finding it confusing and lacking depth.
• The hosts discuss the need for multi-perspective storytelling, referencing the Showtime series “The Affair,” where narratives are shown from different character viewpoints.
• Heather pitches a Netflix adaptation that would present multiple theories of the crime, acting out various scenarios—emphasizing the value in seeing stories through the accused’s own perspective.

Memorable Quote:

"I want there to be a longer, better produced Netflix thing... acting out all those different theories..." – Heather [02:00]

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2. Timothy Busfield Allegations & Melissa Gilbert’s Response

[06:43 – 15:01]

• Conversation shifts to actor/director Timothy Busfield, recently arrested for allegedly sexually assaulting twin boys on the set of a show.
• Discussion on Busfield’s history, past accusations, and his marriage to Melissa Gilbert, who’s come under scrutiny for her responses.
• Brandy and Julie examine the complexities of defending loved ones in the face of such accusations, referencing Busfield’s previous settlements over similar allegations and Gilbert’s background as a former child star.

Memorable Moments:

"My first thought was... giving him the benefit of the doubt, only because just because someone says something about you doesn’t mean it’s immediately true." – Brandy [08:51]

"But I just don’t know what man cares about having a children’s theater. Like, I’m a woman and I don’t even want one.” – Julie [12:24]

• Heather shares a personal story of inappropriate behavior by an acting teacher to highlight the culture of silence and the mixed emotions involved in reporting such incidents.

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3. The Tepe Family Murders and Killer Exes

[20:03 – 30:50]

• The hosts discuss the tragic murder of Monique and Spencer Tepe in their home, emphasizing the senseless violence and the toll on their orphaned children.
• The ex-husband, McKee, a well-known surgeon, is arrested for the crime—despite years and distance since their divorce and no apparent motive.
• They dive into the phenomenon of killers resurfacing after long breaks in relationships; even decade-old connections can result in deadly obsession.

Insightful Comparison:

• The Tepe case is likened to the murder of Amy Harwick by her ex-boyfriend Gareth Pursehouse, a story that illustrates how re-encounters with obsessive ex-partners can be fatal even after years of no contact.

“What if that night she got a cold and didn’t go to the expo? He wouldn’t have seen her. … Her giving him that hour of time to be nice is what then psychoed him out.” – Heather [28:48]

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4. Entitlement, Obsession, and High-Profile Crimes

[30:50 – 41:47]

• The psychological underpinnings of various crimes are explored—obsession, entitlement, the desire to control or possess, and the lengths people will go to preserve their image or get revenge.
• Brandy mentions a “Venn diagram” of sociopaths, suggesting both surgeons and stand-up comedians often have obsessive, god-like personalities that, while not always criminal, can contribute to unbalanced behavior.
• The hosts reference the Betty Broderick and Candy Montgomery cases, discussing the theme of “crime after divorce” and the unpredictability of who might snap.

Notable Quote:

“If you have someone like that in your life, you should never let your guard down. You should never think they're over you.” – Heather [33:53]

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5. Crime, Self-Defense, and the Justice System

[33:58 – 38:50]

• The story of Candy Montgomery is revisited to illustrate how context, self-defense, and public perception affect criminal trials—highlighting Candy’s acquittal after hacking her lover’s wife to death.
• The discussion underscores the blurred lines in self-defense cases and how courts and communities interpret extreme acts committed under duress.

Memorable Exchange:

“She hacked her up in the laundry room to the point where it’s hard to defend, because... did you really need to go that far?” – Julie [36:46]
“She did get off. They did convince – and you know how? Because they went into court and said... is there anyone else in the courtroom? Was this an affair of love?” – Heather [37:00]

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6. Legal Representation & Moral Boundaries

[38:50 – 43:53]

• Alan Jackson, famed for defending Karen Read, initially steps in to defend Nick Reiner (accused of killing his parents) but drops out.
• The group speculates reasons: lack of payment, the strength of an insanity defense, and the risk to Jackson’s public image after a big career win.

Quote:

“I think the brother and sister are probably like, we hope that wherever he goes, it's a humane place. ... But we don't want to be part of getting him out.” – Heather [39:44]

• Heather provides clarifications on the Reiner case and details suggesting premeditation, not just a “crime of passion.”

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7. The Devin Michaels/Robert Baker Crime Web

[43:17 – 49:46]

• A wild, convoluted saga involving Devin Michaels, who beheaded her ex (the father of her children) and was also entangled with her stepson.
• Her ex-husband, Robert Baker, a former porn star and racquetball instructor, is convicted of murder in a separate case involving a hairdresser (Fabio Santinelli).
• Both criminal cases involve incestuous-seeming step-relationships, murder for inheritance or custody, and Vegas/LA connections—the women are often as deeply involved as the men.

Memorable Reaction:

“God, some women that are just super sexual... can get away with murders in the court.” – Heather [38:16]
“That's the most shocking. The fact that they're both in porn... and she still managed to get a real estate license.” – Julie [49:46]

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8. Lawsuits Against the University of Idaho

[50:10 – 52:38]

• The families of students murdered by Bryan Kohberger are suing the university, alleging it failed to act on warning signs.
• Julie and Brandy support the lawsuit, arguing that institutions should bear responsibility if employee behavior is problematic.

Quote:

“Every school should send the money, needs to be paying attention to all this. ... That story is so horrific and so sad.” – Julie [52:17]

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9. The Impact of True Crime on Families

[52:45 – 56:14]

• Discussion shifts to the overlooked trauma experienced by the families of both victims and perpetrators.
• Heather brings up the rarely-discussed perspective of siblings of either murderers or victims, and the long-lasting damage crime does to entire family systems.

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10. When Greed Trumps Blood: The Canero Family Murders

[55:44 – 61:26]

• The Paul Canero case: Paul murders his brother, sister-in-law, niece, and nephew over a combination of infidelity, fraud, and fear of exposure—then tries to stage the scene as if both families are under attack.
• The hosts are appalled by the escalation from personal shame to mass murder, noting the frequency with which men will destroy entire families rather than face consequences.

Quote:

“It’s amazing how many men have a slip of the dick and then cannot get out of the quicksand of hell.” – Heather [58:07]

• Discussion on how prison culture sometimes protects men like Paul from consequences due to solitary confinement, and references to how high-profile or heinous inmates are treated by others behind bars.

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11. Personal Crime Anecdotes & Storage Unit Wisdom

[61:32 – 66:14]

• Julie shares a family story about her brother accidentally burning down their house, highlighting the enduring impact of traumatic events and how families cope or joke years later.
• The episode wraps with banter about storage units as a metaphor for letting go, decluttering, and the economic absurdity of holding on to physical reminders of the past.

“Storage units are the biggest waste of money... what do you need that stuff for, really?” – Heather [65:14]

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “I want there to be a longer, better produced Netflix thing...” – Heather [02:00]
• “I just don’t know what man cares about having a children’s theater. Like, I’m a woman and I don’t even want one.” – Julie [12:24]
• “If you have someone like that in your life, you should never let your guard down...” – Heather [33:53]
• “It’s amazing how many men have a slip of the dick and then cannot get out of the quicksand of hell.” – Heather [58:07]
• “Storage units are the biggest waste of money... what do you need that stuff for, really?” – Heather [65:14]

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Conclusion

The episode balances comedic banter with sobering reflections on crime and human nature. The hosts never trivialize the suffering involved but instead highlight the bizarre, infuriating, and sometimes tragically preventable patterns that run through true crime—always with a sharp eye for hypocrisy and a keen ear for absurdity. Brandy and Julie bring a unique comedic perspective, and the exchange is fast-paced, genuine, and relatable for anyone who follows both headline-making crime and the human messiness behind the news.

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Find Brandy & Julie

• @MrJulieGoldman
• @TheBrandyHoward
• Podcast: Dumb Gay Politics
• Live show: Nightmare & Strip Street at the Hollywood Theater, Minneapolis (Feb 24–Mar 22)

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Note: Timestamps are approximate and refer to the main content, not counting ad breaks or intros/outros.

Transcript

[A]

This episode of Juicy Crimes is sponsored by quints. You guys know I love my quints. When you need a wardrobe refresh. When you want to start out 2026, a little elevated, but without the price. Refresh your wardrobe with Quince. Don't wait. Go to quince.com juicycrime for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q U I n c e.com juicycrime to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com juicycri foreign. Hello and welcome to Juicy Crimes. I was so lucky because I got my girls, Brandy Howard, Julie Goldman to stay and go through some juicy crimes that have happened that I want to share with you guys and get your opinions and some updates. So welcome back.

[B]

It's good to be back. You really manifested us coming back, which is great. It really worked for Manifesting Mama.

[A]

Thank you. You know, Heather, AKA Manifesting Mama. A or af.

[C]

I also for 2026, it's not AF. It's not AS.

[A]

It's A. I think actually the whole AF thing needs to go to.

[B]

Agreed.

[C]

No, but because now it's I'm hot. A yeah.

[B]

A A oh, she is hot. A She's smart.

[C]

A I can't even do it.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

A yeah.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Okay. I watched the Karen Reed Lifetime movie over the weekend and it was disappointing. I mean, I, you know, there's so much to this story and this was only an hour and a half long with ads and I mean two hours. But, you know, and if you didn't know the show, if you didn't know what happened to her, I think it would. You, you would have been like, what was that? It was so confusing because they would do like these moments in the courtroom that with all these different people, but you couldn't remember that the dark haired girl on the stand was the girl that was like, hey, come to our house at the bar. Like they did a little bit of their relationship and their fights, like the acting out of who was playing the victim. Just John o' Keefe and her. But this is what I want. I want there to be a longer, better produced Netflix thing.

[C]

Like a limited series.

[A]

Yes. And in that, yeah, I want it to be her or somebody having a scene going, whoa, this is what they think really happened. And then we see the scenario acted out in a way that they're not accusing the people in the house of doing anything, but if they could write it in a script of all those different theories that he went in the house, and he got in a fight with.

[C]

And then you're saying, we see.

[A]

And then the dog. Yeah, we see it acted out. I just want to see those scenarios acted out. That's a good idea, and that's what it needs, because otherwise, it's like, just to see little bits of, like, a courtroom drama. It just wasn't.

[C]

So we all want. We all want to. Okay, let's do the one where he goes down the stairs.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

And then he's hit on the weight bench.

[A]

Yes. And the dog is jumping because he's fighting with somebody else. And that's how. And then he walks out. And then he. You know.

[C]

And we would all sort of have, like, the same collective imagination. Right. With it, because everybody pictures it in your own way of how it could have happened. I mean, that's a great, great, great. They must be working on it, right?

[A]

Yes. And I don't. Also don't feel like this was totally, like, what I also want to see from her perspective. I want to see one whole long thing from her perspective. Like, she's, you know, seeing the stuff on the Internet. She's wondering about it. She's asking herself about it. She's kind of excited. Some people want to take a selfie with her. And then she's like, oh, great. Now everyone thinks all I care about is selfies. It's not about that. I need some support. Like, I can't believe his mother hates me. Like, I just want to see that.

[C]

The Netflix thing would be good if it was her perspective.

[A]

Oh, yes. Like. Like the. Not the. What was it called? Not the Affair. It was my favorite show on Showtime. Was it the. Called the Affair with Nicole Kidman? No. There was a show on Showtime that was like, five seasons, like, 10 years.

[C]

Ago that I. Oh, yes. With the girl with the lips.

[A]

Yes. And it was.

[C]

And it was the one where the animals attach.

[A]

The. Every episode was basically the. The same stuff was happening. So let's say it was a weekend in the Hamptons, and it's. The parents have a 50th party or whatever. And then it would show. The first half would be. They'd go, Noah. And it would be all of Noah's perspective of what happened.

[C]

We watched it for people's couch.

[A]

Oh, my God, I loved it. And then the second half would be her perspective. Sometimes they split it up in threes, too. They'd have him, his wife, and the.

[C]

Mistress, and then Annabelle Fish, or whatever her name. Annabeth Gish, whatever her name is. She was the wife I think because they did the wife too.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then the British lady.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

And then it would show you like.

[B]

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

[A]

When he first meets the girl he has the affair with, his perspective is her uniform is like really short. And then her perspective is. Was like, it was like down her knees and she looked drab and she wasn't being sexual.

[C]

And that whole interpretation of like, she's like, hey, what do you want to drink? And it's like, it was like totally different than they did this. Also in the Ellen or Helen Hunt movie with Mel Gibson, like, the man.

[B]

What a man wants.

[C]

What a man wants. Because it would be like the girl would just be like, oh, hey, I'm gonna take you into your appointment. Like the secretary. But then when it was his perspective, be like, I'm gonna take you in. And I was like, she was just walking him in. It's like, it's crazy when you do it like that because. Yeah, yeah. Because men interpret things so differently than were like, I'm not being a, you know, porny. When maybe it would also be really.

[A]

Fun to do a show like that, but it be just about women, friendships. You know, how someone's always like, she was a real. To me, she was snobby to me. And here the woman is like, oh, my God.

[C]

Hi.

[A]

Like, seeing her as being so welcoming and like how one person would see something and. Yeah. So anyway, it. You're not missing anything if you.

[C]

Is that Piper Paraboo, by the way, or do. Is she an unknown who played Karen Reed? I don't.

[A]

I don't know. But she. She was very good.

[C]

Yeah. From here, the highlights.

[A]

Pretty. And she looked like her.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And so I thought she was good. Okay, so this is a crazy story. Timothy Busfield, you know him from west wing way back when. 30 something.

[B]

30 something, really much older show.

[A]

He has been accused and. And arrested. I think it was that he was arrested. Right. Hold on.

[C]

Yeah, he was arrested or indicted or something.

[A]

No arrest warrant. He was arrested.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

For.

[A]

Essaying children on set of a show. That he was the producer and the director of their twin boys. And it happened a couple years ago and they, you know, gave. Gave their perspective, told their mother. The mother went in and why did.

[C]

I think he was an actor? So he's not an actor. He's in it and directed it.

[A]

Well, this particular show with the kids, I think he might have just been directing. And he's married to Melissa Gilbert of Little House on the Prairie, who was recently in our little weird Real Housewives News because she stopped Britney Bateman on the street. And her perspective was that Brittany Bateman of Real Housewives of Salt Lake City was not impressed enough to know that she was talking to Laura Ingalls of Little House on the Prairie. And so that was interesting. That just happened two weeks ago.

[C]

And just in our political world, she was the president of our union, which when we, you know, does is kind of like this weird enclave of like part partisan politics. Like.

[A]

And she recently posted about child, you know, abuse and stuff. So it's like she recently just posted something like that his people and him are, you know, denying it and all of that. But then he had. So I wrote in the comments that he had like a children's theater up in Sacramento. So now you kind of wonder is more going to come out if in fact this is true or was this an isolated incident or did it not happen at all?

[C]

My first thought was like giving him the benefit of the doubt only because just because you don't want to just immediately, if somebody says something about you doesn't need to immediately be true. If it isn't, they were. The show was canceled or the kids were fired. So I thought they weren't asked to.

[A]

Be on like the next season.

[C]

Right.

[A]

So they think, is that what the mother. The momager is, you know, doing to get a big money grab and everything?

[C]

But I must say, hearing that he had a children's theater, I'm walking back my. My initial.

[A]

So here's my little story with him. And it's not a big deal at all, but it just. So we had a house that we were living in on Harvard street, on Montana street. And we were going to leave or they were looking to sell it or rent it to someone else. And my headshots were out. I was like 24 at the time and my roommate was there and she's like, oh yeah, that guy from 30 something came to look at the house and he's like, who's this? And I remember going, isn't he married? And at the time he was married. And I was just like, that's kind of weird that you were. And also I was like, well, I mean, it's kind of impressed that he thought I was at all cute, but, like, clear. It was like, I'm impressed you lived.

[C]

On Montana, a Harvard off of Montana.

[A]

So no one could. I know, couldn't afford it now, but like, anyway, so I think he always kind of maybe was like a sex pest. Like, yes. But kid thing is very, very creepy. And so, yeah, the Argument of we didn't want him for the next season. They got. I just can't imagine. But hey, there are bad momagers out there that you would entice your children to lie about something. And I also think when there's two of you. This happened with the cheer show. Remember the cheer documentary with the guy. With that guy that was like, he stole the show. The documentary was about that college, junior college. And they had the biggest, like, cheerleading junior college group ever. And there was this young black gay guy that was like, just won your heart over in this series. Yeah. And then he. Because he became famous in between seasons, he started working and doing things. And he met these two twin boys that were in the cheer world. And they were. One was. You know, part of it was just calling and everything. One was an actual, like, physical assault. And they did. Can, you know, they both had each other's, you know, story as far as, like, it was the. They had each other's back and knowing what was true because they were aware of what each other was going through. So I don't know if that makes it worse. So she.

[C]

I just know I do want to.

[A]

Give, like, oh, it said Melissa Gilbert bought Christmas gifts for those victims.

[C]

I mean, I'm sure they were on his TV show, but I don't know.

[A]

If she bought him back when they were on the show or just buy them right before these things came out.

[C]

I mean, the. The story allegedly is that she was well aware that the. The allegations were going to be revealed and that were on the table when she spoke out against which, of course, she would. She's obviously not a supporter of child, you know, essaying, but I just don't know what man cares about having a children's theater. Like, I'm a woman and don't even want one. I don't even want just a child.

[A]

Yeah. So even that's.

[C]

Like. That's just.

[B]

It is not a good.

[C]

It's just not good optics.

[B]

He could have any.

[C]

But no.

[A]

Here's more. This came from TMZ. Tim Busfield was ordered to pay a law firm $150,000 for a 1996 case about Child SA. This was with a young. A young girl. Young child actor girl poor. In which she said this happened. He then sued for, like, defamation, and then it was thrown out and settled and he paid. Now someone would say, I just paid to make it go away. It's still. Now.

[C]

Do you think this is, like, real talk? This happened in 96. This is pre. Or is this during what's the president show?

[A]

West Wing.

[C]

West Wing.

[A]

I think it would have been right around that time.

[C]

So does Melissa Gilbert know they've only.

[B]

Been married for 10 years?

[C]

Does she know going in? Because somebody could have things in their past that you just never caught wind.

[B]

Right.

[C]

We never knew that happened.

[A]

You know, I mean, think about how many women marry men that are like, my ex wife's crazy, she's insane, she's a psycho. No, that never happened. You know, like I just think you get. You meet somebody, you like him, and it's slim pickings out there. And she just wanted to believe, you know, and maybe they had a great marriage and maybe she believes them. So then I come all of a sudden she comes across my for you page, but I'm not even following her. This was like last night or the day before. And she goes, you know, I've just been thinking this morning about kindness. No. God, because obviously you're not getting that much kindness right now. When two little boys say that your husband essayed them on set.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

So she's like, just be kind. When you see someone choose kindness and the kindness and the kindness and just be kind. That's all I'm saying. And then the next thing happened was Melissa Gilbert deleted her social media.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

As husband Timothy faces arrest.

[C]

I will also say it's a strange take from someone who grew up on set her whole life with a little sister who did too. And we know the 70s, the 80s and the 90s were not kind to child actors. And maybe this is still the case. We would hope like, you know, in like the new millennium or whatever that maybe we're doing better with these kid actors. But we know what was going on with these kid actors and she herself was one. So it's just kind of like, I mean she's in a shitty, terrible position. She's got to have witnessed. We just watched the Corey's, you guys.

[A]

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[C]

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[A]

Go to quints.com juicycrime for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada, too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com juicycrime to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com juicycry oh, I know I told you this story. I know I've said it on the show, but I had this, like, acting teacher. He was a. He was playing a priest in Young and the Restless. So we were like, I can't believe we have, like, a real actor teaching at our school. Like, and he was, like, mid-40s or whatever. And he was actually dating the dance teacher. But anyway, so we started this, like, it was the first time ever we were gonna do, like, improv Olympics or whatever it was and compete with all these high school kids. And I was like, oh, my God, finally, like, we have a decent theater department. We're finally doing cool. And he was a real close talker. Like, real close. And it was sort of uncomfortable when you're being like, exercise, you know, and.

[C]

Are you, like, 13?

[A]

I'm like 15. And they're always watching. They're always, no, no, man, no. I'm actually, like a. A junior senior. And so 16, 17. And he also is, like, always wearing, like, a black turtleneck and whatever. And so then one day he goes, I just want to say to you, Heather, the way that you were, like, leading the younger girls and you're. You know. Because I was president of the thespian, Very close to lesbian. I was president of thespian, always close.

[B]

To lesbians and never quite there.

[A]

And you took my little fat face, my little cabbage patch face, which, listen, I don't know if you meant anything from it. I had giant fat cheeks. I assume they would be hard to resist. Like a fat doll. Okay. It's like they're hard to resume. And he goes, you're just so, like, you're just so great. And he gives me this, like, long kiss, like, right here in my cheek. And I. It upset me so much because I was like, oh, my God, now I have to report this guy. And now we're not going to do the LA Improv Olympics because nobody else at the school has ever signed us up for it, and they're not going to know how to do it. I don't know what to do. So I know immediately that this was wrong and that someone needed to tell him. But then that the Catholic girl in me was like, maybe he just doesn't know that this is wrong. Like, maybe he doesn't know that he should be doing this to girls. So because I still wanted to do the one acts and everything that we had planned, the theater department, I didn't want to get rid of them. You know, it's just like. And this is the same thing that people go through when they're sexually harassed at a job they love.

[C]

Yeah, that's what I was gonna say. It's not the Catholic girl in you, it's the woman in you that's just like.

[A]

And you, like, love the job. And then you're like, I don't want to, like, complain and lose this job. So anyway, I started to cry in the next class. Everyone's like, what's wrong? Whatever. And so I went to this one teacher that I thought was pretty cool, who was an English teacher, and I told her, and I said it like this. Like, I don't know if he was trying to hit on me. I don't know if he meant anything about it. Maybe he just doesn't realize that, like, you shouldn't be doing that to young girls. Like. But, like. And I really want to do the Improv Olympics. We're supposed to go to Hollywood High. And, like, I just want to do it, like. And so. So then I guess she talked to him, and after that, we would have acting class, and he would literally be across the. Oh, well, across the room. Like, he never came any closer than six feet after that.

[C]

So she basically went to him under behind the scenes. Don't fuck with the girls or you're out of here.

[A]

Yeah, like, don't.

[C]

And then you were like, Mary, Queen of Scots. One act coming soon.

[A]

It was Night Mother. No, no. Yes.

[B]

Not Night Mother. Oh.

[C]

Anyways, meanwhile, Heather cuts to Heather and, like, with the trophy. Amazing. I won Improv Olympics.

[B]

Yep.

[C]

Suck At Hollywood High.

[A]

No, we didn't win.

[C]

Anyway.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

So then I want to follow up on this. So this is so sad. So Monique and Spencer Tepe, I've talked about them in the past week. They were found in their home, shot to death. It was not a murder suicide. They. There was a Suspect that they caught on camera that looked like just a man in a hoodie. So there's no distinctive features. And they. The two children, who are four and one, spared them. And immediately when people started to think it, people started to say, I think it's her ex husband. And I looked up to see, well, wait a minute. When did they get divorced? And are these. Maybe these two kids are the first husband? So now there's a classic custody battle. Or he doesn't like that the husband's raising them. No, she married the suspect. They now have arrested her ex husband named McKe, who was a prominent surgeon.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

In a very. And he lived like hundreds of miles away. Wow. This is what so crazy. She married him. McKee. Here she is on her wedding day. They were only married from 2015 to 2017.

[C]

That's an elegant wedding picture. Even though he's gross.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

I mean, he's a surgeon. She was in special education. Even more tragic.

[C]

That sucks.

[A]

And then. So they get divorced.

[C]

Can't believe it's sad.

[A]

People said it was an amicable divorce.

[C]

So they were married less than a year.

[B]

Two years.

[A]

About a year and a half.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

About 18 months. Significant. Okay. So then I'll tell you why.

[C]

And then.

[A]

So then she meets the dentist. He's just two years younger than she. They got married. They said they were just about to celebrate their five years of marriage. So they got married, let's say, in 21. And then they had the 4 and the 1 year old. What? So there's no child support. There's no spousal support. Because she's married. Everything's been settled for years.

[C]

She just left.

[A]

She was married to the second home longer than the first. He's in a surgeon in a whole different town.

[C]

State.

[A]

State. I mean, what was it was what triggered him to suddenly get to this place of obsession? To think that I. And there's comments and stuff where people are like, maybe she was seeing him again. No, there's no way.

[C]

There's no way.

[A]

This is a classic. And so I did a little video about it, and I heard a lot of people under there, right. Re. I read it that they were like my. My ex boyfriend from 10 years ago. I'm married, I have kids, still tries to contact me. I. That's why I'm not going to my high school reunion. He's married with three kids. Like, I don't know what it is. What could have sparked this? We don't know the motivation, but they know it's him. They. They Track the car. I mean, they're pretty confident it is that he did it. So the only real question is, why?

[C]

The picture of these two, the new. The dentist. Not even new. They were married. They had a full relationship for years. It is giving me Lacey Peterson vibes where it's, like, so beautiful and cute and, like, great. Like, the energy that comes off of them. It's like, sucks so hard. Like. And then she's worked. She's in special education. You're just like, why do we have to lose. This is why we can't have nice things. Why do we have to lose good people?

[A]

I mean, I'm grateful that he didn't also. And the lives of the children.

[C]

But they're orphaned now.

[A]

They were what? Yes, of course. And they were wondering, like, wait, there was no breaking of an entry. But then I read somewhere there was maybe a back door opened.

[C]

Did you hear the 911 call where she said, somebody's trying to get in here from months before she called, like, during the day. And she's like, somebody's trying to open my door. I'm scared. I'm scared. And they haven't necessarily connected it to that. To the ex husband who they have proven his car was. Yeah, they found his car. But she had somebody, like, trying to get into her house in the middle of the day, and she was, like, hiding upstairs, scared. So I. I do feel like you have mentioned to us, like, we've had phone conversations, that he was giving her, like, stalker vibes.

[A]

I don't. I mean, like, maybe, like, that's the first I heard about the thing. I mean, I just was like, how does 10 years go by? That much time, that much distance, you're not seeing each other at Trader Joe's. The only thing I could think of is, was he suddenly. Did he suddenly come across something that she's posting? And then got weirdly obsessed with social media and just. And then in his sick head was like, you know, you and your perfect family. I don't know, maybe he wanted to reach out and start a friendship with her again, and she shut it down. I mean, we're gonna. That's all gonna come out because, you know, they're gonna take the phone. They're gonna. Every single thing that he has looked at on the Internet, what social media he's done, if he's been part of any, like, groups or anything. But then it reminded me of the story of Amy Harwick. So Amy Harwick was this beautiful. And it was interesting because just yesterday I was with my niece. After I brought her up and talking to you, I was with my niece and she goes for Juicy Crimes. And do you know the story of Amy Harwick? Because my friends and I know her from like the burlesque world. So Amy and my niece does like aerial work and stuff. So Amy Harwick was actress and did burlesque and all of that, but she also went and got her therapy license and was a family marriage therapist, but sex therapist. But she was also involved in this charity called Pineapple Support for people that need therapy that are part of the adult sex industry.

[C]

That's cool.

[A]

So she, you know, had clients and was doing quite well. And she did podcasts and all that type of stuff. And she was engaged to Drew, Drew Carey of the Price is Right. They did break up and they were still friendly. And so she went In January of 2020, she went and did the carpet at the X Biz Awards show, which is like an adult awards show. And they're doing photography, like paparazzi photography was this guy named Gareth Pursehouse. And she sees him there and they used to date, but he was stalking her. They dated back in 2010.

[C]

Wow.

[A]

10 years ago. Just like the other girl was with her husband. And 10 years ago, okay, so 10 years have passed. During that time, he was so stalkerish, she had to get restraining orders against him. And then they. He respected him and she didn't see him run into him anywhere. Also, he was trying to be a stand up comic and he was did. There's a video of him doing like Kill Tony at the Comedy Store. Wow. So he sees her there and she tells her mother that she saw him. She writes an email to somebody about it saying, I talked to him for almost an hour because he's like, you ruined my life. You ruined my life with these restraining orders. And she was like doing all her therapy talk to just tell him, like, no, you're going to be fine. You know, da, da, da, da. So she writes about it being like, that was, you know, disturbing. But I try. I still get girl trying to be nice. Let me talk to you for an hour, weirdo. And then June, February 14, Valentine's Day. So just about a month after running into her, she comes home from a burlesque show. He's waiting. He broke in her house. He's hiding behind something. He goes and attacks her, strangles her and throws her over the balcony. And when the. When the roommate called and the police came, she was living. But then she passed. And then they also.

[C]

He was on the street, pretending, whatever. Who cares?

[A]

Yes. Right. Yeah. Tell me what you remember.

[C]

He was, he was waited in the house. They got into like a physical fight. She was like literally fighting for her life. Throws her over the balcony and then goes and is on the street. So when the police come, he's just like acting like he's.

[B]

This woman fell from the balcony.

[A]

What happened?

[C]

Witness or a victim? It's absolutely horrific to think about being attacked in your home. And she had already said that she had been being stalked. I mean she had a restraining order against him.

[A]

He was from way back then. But then, I mean I always, when I thought about this, when I think about what the motivation is for the TEPE case in, in Ohio, I think what if that night she got a cold and she didn't go to the exp. Red carpet.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

He wouldn't have seen her. He didn't know she was going to be there. It's my understanding he didn't know she was going to be there. He'd forgotten about her, saw her. And then her giving him that time, that hour of time to be nice is what then psychoed him out. And he had every intention of killing her. It wasn't like a, A strangulation or a, A fighting that went wrong because he had a syringe nicotine that was. Would kill you if he.

[B]

A liquid nicotine.

[A]

If he would stick it in your body. Which he didn't use because she got thrown over the balcony before, huh?

[C]

Yeah. Because he didn't get the chance. Yeah, she was fighting.

[A]

So then the prosecutor is like this is, you know, premeditated and he did go away for life. But. Yeah. So I really think with this Ohio case with this couple, like I just, if I did was it that triggered.

[C]

A Venn diagram of in my mind of like, like. And this is no offense to you guys and also Julie W. Because your father's a surgeon. But of sociopaths of. In careers, honestly, one side would be surgeons and one side would be stand up comedians. Like it's not all of them but you get to. It's like this weird sort of like godlike kind of. Yeah. Like a God couple. You're get. They get kind of obsessive and when.

[A]

People say there's nothing, there's nothing I would want to do less and stand in front of a, a group of people. But then people like us do it.

[C]

And then it's the kind of the same pressure of like surgery.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Which you would have to have like a, a thing where you like Disconnect from like, I don't know, someone could die. The guy's a surgeon.

[A]

Die in your.

[C]

And he just decided he was going to go and kill them and, and there was just going to be no stopping him. And then he just walked through the alley. This guy with the ex husband in Ohio. And it's like you just see him walking through the alley and it's like you just shot two people with babies. The only reason they found them is because their children were in the house crying audibly so you could hear through the door.

[A]

What's really scary is when you have someone like that in your life, you think you do all the right things, you know, you get the restraining or you don't with them, you, you really have to cut off all contact. That's what I'm saying. If she didn't show up that day, even if she would have snubbed him, even if when he came up to her she was like, absolutely not. Maybe that would have like curtailed his obsession. Maybe the hour of being in her presence like triggered something. But even with Betty Broderick, your favorite. My favorite. When I really studied that for like the 18 million times. Because when you watch the Lifetime movie in that the timeline is not really correct. And they had gotten married, they lived in another house, the kids were going back and forth. She had a full on boyfriend, Betty Broderick. She was still struggling with like, what, how much money I'm supposed to get from the sale of this house or whatever. But it seemed like things were like settled. And then she has a dinner party with people, they all leave, the boyfriend is there. And then. But prior to that, she stole the keys to dad's house from her daughter. She took the key off the daughter's key ring. The daughter's like, oh, where's my dad's key? Like, didn't thought it, thought it fell off. So that's where the premeditation came in. But according to Betty Broderick, yeah, she put that in her pocket or put it away. But she didn't. That wasn't why she said she like woke up in the middle of the night and was just like, I can't take it anymore. I'm gonna go over there and. And I know I have the key. I'm going to go in there and I'm going to kill myself in front of them. So they know what they did to me. That was always her defense. So she goes in there, not bad. And she's like, like, you know, and then all of a sudden she says that they scared her when they woke up. Sorry. And that's when. Then she killed him. And then when he started, he started to go for the phone. So then she shoot him 100 more times and also shot her. And then took the phone out of the thing because he was still moving. She didn't want him to call anybody. And then she went down the street and got on a payphone and was like, I did it.

[C]

I did it.

[A]

And. And then when she went to prison, she just had no remorse. She would always say, I'm happier here than being out there. And they were torturing him, but to somebody else, they were like, wait a minute, you had a boyfriend, you had a job, you had an oak. You know, not as lavish as the house you had before. He did really screw over in the legal system of getting divorced, but at the time, so it's like, wow, it's really scary because if you have someone like that in your life, you should never let your guard down. You should never think that they've over you. You should never think they're. They're, you know, they're better now. Oh, a totally different person now. Now that he got out of prison for stalking, he's a totally different person.

[C]

It reminds me of that, of that movie and that. That story of Candy too, where it's.

[A]

The Candy story.

[C]

It's like Jessica Biel. There was two different movies. There was Jessica Biel and then there was Elizabeth Olsen. The Jessica Biel one is so damn good. And it's like, yeah.

[A]

I mean, it was in the 70s and.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

In Texas was the person named Candy was the one that. So the. Candy was having the affair with her friend's husband.

[C]

Yeah. They were all in like a tight knit, like, little Christian community.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And then she's just like, you know what? I'm just gonna. She was very like, you know, it was.

[A]

It was, let's have an affair, you and me.

[C]

Yeah. It was not like a very romantic. She just wanted like a sexual thing. And they like bullets pointed it out, and she targeted this woman's husband that she met at volleyball. And then they did the affair. And then I guess he may be. He kind of caught feelings. So she was like, let's just end it. Or he or his wife got pregnant. Whatever the reason was, they ended it. And it was like, okay, let's end it. And then she went over there, their kids hung out. She went over there to get like a bathing suit. And the lady who was played in the Jessica Biel one by the Girl from Yellowjackets who's amazing.

[A]

Yeah, the brunette.

[C]

Yeah, she's amazing. It was the Jessica Biel one was so much better than the Elizabeth Olsen, but she just goes after her with an axe and.

[B]

I mean, the wife of the guy that she had sex with.

[C]

Yes, because she finds out, and there's a little baby in the. She has a little newborn baby. She's had a baby, so she's in, like, you know, she's in hormone hell. Of course, she's very insecure, and as you would be if you figured this out, but she literally attacks her with an ax and around the whole house to the point where we're just gonna call her Jessica Biel, even though it's Candy. Jessica Biel finally, like, by the time she finally gets the ax, she's so pissed and so activated that she then.

[A]

Takes the ax from her, right?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And then kills. And then kills the wife.

[C]

Hacks her up to the point of. It's really hard to defend. But you. But nobody can understand being chased around a house and, like, her toe got cut off, and she is being hit with the ax, but so by the time she finally gets the act, she's like, I'm gonna.

[B]

The wife killed Candy, you mean?

[C]

No, the wife chased around the mistress.

[B]

Chase Candy around her toe.

[A]

Yeah, the wife was chasing Miss. The mistress around the wife chasing Candy with. With an axe and cutting her toe.

[C]

Off and then hacking her. But so long around the house, and there's, like, a puppy barking, and the baby, by the time she gets the axe from her seeing so red Candy, she hacks her up in the laundry room to the point where it's, like, hard to defend because it's like, did you really need to, like, damn near.

[B]

Catapult, like, cut her head off?

[C]

Decapitator.

[B]

Right?

[C]

And, like. But she's like. But it is the thing of. Like, it's like the thing of the passion where it's like, you see red and then. And both of them. And she's just like, yeah, I don't.

[A]

And then in real life, Candy, the mistress who killed the wife, she did get off. They did convince.

[C]

And you know how. Because they went into the court and said, is there anyone else in the courtroom? It wasn't an affair of love? And she was like, no, I just picked him out from volleyball. And they're like, do you see anyone else in the courtroom that you've done this with? And she said, mm. And then you see all the wives in the courtroom, like, look at their husbands. And then it's like, is it more than one? And she said yes. More than two? Yes. More than three? It was more than five in the actual court. And she was like, she everyone in the whole town. And so they're like not guilty. Like she wasn't in love with him. She didn't hack her up in the laundry room because she was in love with him. She point blank proved that she wasn't in love with him at all.

[B]

It was self defense.

[C]

Self defense.

[B]

And as we know, when you need to do self defense, sometimes you gotta hack someone. You gotta just do whatever you gotta do.

[C]

She's a therapist now.

[A]

No, she became a therapist, she got remarried. She did end up divorcing her husband, but he stuck by her the whole time. Even though she so that stand and said she. All these other guys, that's what I'm always just like. God, some women that are just like super sexual can get away with and can get away with murders in the court.

[C]

And she probably had sex with like her lawyer. Remember there was a thing with like she had vibes with everyone. But that, I mean I don't want lest anyone think I'm like extreme excusing. But I do know if someone chased me around the house with an ax, by the time I got control of the ax, you're getting it like my toes cut off.

[B]

You're getting your arms hacked into. I think that you go crazy. I think you would lose one.

[C]

Yeah. It's like fighting off like a wild animal.

[B]

Yeah. You just, you have to start doing it until you know that they're completely dead. So that is so crazy.

[A]

Alan Jackson, the famed defense attorney of Karen Reed, who, who immediately said he was going to represent Nick Reiner, has stepped down. He now has a public defender. The first initial thought is he's not getting paid. In California, if you kill your parents, you automatically will not get the any inheritance.

[B]

Oh, good.

[A]

So it would be up to I assume the relatives, the family, the brother and sister to pay for it.

[B]

Good.

[C]

And I love that law.

[B]

I love that law too.

[C]

I didn't know that, didn't know it.

[A]

Either until just recently. And so good. And so I think a, they're not willing to pay and they don't want to be part of the process.

[B]

They just want nothing to do.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I think they just are like, you know, let them have a public defender. Public defenders can be great too. Also dealing with someone who's like a schizophrenic client.

[C]

When you say they don't, do you mean Alan Jackson? Or do you mean.

[A]

I'm saying I don't believe. I think the brother and sister are probably like, listen, we. We hope that wherever he goes, it's a humane place. This is what I'm guessing. But we don't want to be part of getting him out. Being there for probation, paying for his attorneys, whatever, you know.

[C]

Why do you think Alan Jackson dropped out?

[A]

Because I think he wasn't getting.

[C]

They were going to pay.

[A]

I think they were going to pay. And then also, I talked to Shannon. She goes, sometimes it's that someone like him doesn't think he can win on an insanity plea. And maybe initially he did, and maybe there's more information coming out that would make it hard for him to win by reason of insanity. As far as. Like, then you wouldn't get life, and you'd be in, like, an institution versus prison. And maybe he found out more information that. And he doesn't want to have a loss. He just had this big win.

[C]

He did say he found out something. Something about the integrity. My. What I hope in my heart, even though this isn't that, like, great, but is that he realized that his. His bottom line right now exists on, like, all of the intellectual property associated with Karen Reid. I mean, the Lifetime. They're going to make your Netflix show you just came up with 30 minutes ago, so they're going to do that. He needs that. If he starts to dilute down his own branding, like, he's a hero now. The minute he was affiliated with this guy.

[A]

I know. I was kind of surprised he went for it, because he said, the minute we heard, my office was all over it. We went right down. And then Nick was like, yeah, I guess he went right to Nick and was like, would love to represent you. And he was like, okay. And then maybe they went to the family, and they're like, no. Like, I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna worry about him getting out in 10 years because he has the best attorney in the world, and now I'm not safe. Look at what you would look at the cases you just talked about. 10 years, 15 years, 20 years. Hello. Mike Myers. I mean, you know, he was obsessed with Jamie Lee Curtis, and that was his little sister. Like, it doesn't mean that they're going to get over it, you know? And so it's like, he killed his parents.

[C]

He can't.

[B]

He literally not just killed them. He slit their throats. And also, that person should never. I mean, I'm.

[A]

And also, to clarify a couple things that I since found Out. They did not come together at. They did not come to the party together. Oh, he showed up before anybody and someone on the staff. And this is. I heard from a good source, someone on the staff that works for the. For Conan o' Brien was like, who is this guy? Is he a cater waiter? Like, why does he look so creepy? So he was there before. So I think what happened is he got there, it was awkward. Maybe he'd gone in the past. Maybe he knew about it. I think Rob and Michelle Reiner got there and they were like, hearing that he was being weird and walking up to people. And then I think they had the. The confrontation where he was like, what the are you doing here? He left. Then they felt awkward and they. Rob Reiner went home and then went to bed, and then he came back. So I think there's some premeditation there.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

It wasn't like. I think it's not a crime of passion. Is it a crime of being a schizophrenic whose mind is crazy because your meds were changed? Yeah. But I think it's going to be really hard to get that. And the prosecution, I think, has enough that shows, like, some premeditation, whether it's. He checked into the hotel first, then he left and came to the house and they were asleep. Wasn't like an argument in the kitchen? No, we're asleep in their beds.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Now, this is a story I need to tell you because it's insane. There is this woman named Devin Michaels, and she had a. A baby daddy, like a boyfriend, long term. They had two girls, and she just got convicted of beheading him.

[B]

The boyfriend.

[A]

The boyfriend, what did he do? He had custody of her daughters because she had done something in physical abuse.

[C]

And he had the custody to him or to them?

[A]

To the little girls?

[B]

She did.

[C]

She did.

[B]

What a bummer. I thought maybe.

[A]

So she was all set to do a plea deal because she was saying that, you know, they were getting together and he wanted her to do something sexual that she didn't want to do, and therefore she killed him. She killed him in self defense and then decided to chop off the head and, like, take it somewhere else. She was in Vegas, but just tossed.

[C]

It out the window.

[B]

Take it to a gambling.

[A]

I don't know, just to.

[C]

Maybe she took it to the win.

[A]

I don't know if her excuse was to hope that, like, they wouldn't figure out who it was. But his own mother found him. So I think he was in his house. But then the day of the thing of like, okay, you're doing your plea for 15 years. Then she said, no, I don't want to do that plea. This is why attorneys are like, who is my weird client? We just agreed to this thing. You're gonna get 15 years. And she's like, no, I don't want to do that. I want to. I want to go through a trial. In the trial, we find out that she, when she got with this guy, started having an affair with her stepson who was 19.

[B]

Oh, no.

[A]

She married the stepson.

[C]

Oh, gosh.

[A]

And then wanted to get rid of her husband's dad, who's also her baby daddy, so that she and her stepson slash husband could raise the two little girls together, and she would get the full custody back. Gets crazier how? Her other ex husband is named Robert Baker, and he was just convicted of killing this hairdresser in Woodland Hills named Fabio Santinelli, where he fell in love with Fabio's wife, and the two of them just got convicted for him participating with another person in killing fabric Fabio. Very close to my house in W. Hill. I feel like I get better.

[B]

That was just.

[A]

Yeah. Robert Baker not only was married to this woman, but she was his stepdaughter.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

And they sexually got together when she was a minor, and he did time for what he did to his stepdaughter. He then got out of prison, married her. He was a porn star. She became a porn star. They got divorced. Then she became a realtor in where?

[B]

Vegas.

[C]

Is it in Vegas or Woodland Hills?

[A]

Vegas.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

I think she became a realtor in Vegas.

[C]

That's what I say. We're all strippers go to die.

[A]

He, Robert Baker, stopped doing porn and started teaching racquetball.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

In West Hills. Met this girl, Monica Centinelli, who had two teenage daughters with her husband of 25 years, Fabio Sentinelli, who was a hairdresser and taught hairdressing and was, like, beloved in the industry.

[C]

Yes. I've seen this on Dateline. So good.

[A]

And they start having an affair. He never knows that an affair is happening, Fabio. And then Robert gets this other kid who's, like, in the ar, out of the army, but his friend's son and is like, we'll kill him, and then we'll get all this life insurance.

[C]

Go there and shoot.

[A]

Once I marry. Once I marry her, then we'll have all this money, and I'll give it to you. No. They went up behind him, and they. He stabbed him. Oh, okay. And then they took His Porsche. And then, you know, and then they were tracking them to see. And then they found out they were having an affair. And the whole time during the trial, though, Robert Baker, former porn star, racquetball instructionist, married to his stepdaughter, who then became a murderer who also married her stepson.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

They. He always said that Monica was innocent in it. The wife. But the wife did get convicted as well. And now they're both in it because Monica was Fabio's wife in the Fabio hairdresser.

[C]

Because when he killed Fabio.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

He said Monica had nothing to do with it.

[A]

She said that she never knew it was happening. It was never. He just wanted to get rid of.

[C]

Him.

[A]

And all this stuff.

[C]

They take the woman down every time.

[A]

But what's interesting is in the planning of this crime to kill Fabio, a lot of it took place in meetings in Las Vegas. Okay. Where his former wife, Sl. Stepdaughter, is now living. So I'm like, you know, hello. I guess marrying your step grandpa on the Real House of Salt Lake City is not so unusual.

[C]

It sounds like murder is contagious the way divorce is contagious. Like, God forbid anyone ever just, like, get around us and accidentally do murder.

[B]

And then we'll just be like, it was self defense. I mean, I'm curious.

[C]

Like, you're just getting rid of people.

[B]

But more importantly, what are the movies that Robert Baker made? I tried to find them and anything, and he probably had a different name. It was like Robert Toucans. Yes.

[C]

It's probably lifetime before. But.

[A]

But before this came out, I covered the Robert Baker thing, and I was trying to get more information on. On this little blips that would come in articles that was like. And he married his stepdaughter who also became a porn star. And I was like, who's that? How up is that girl? And then four months, three months after doing that story, I come across this one. And they're like, coincidentally, this girl who also married her stepson was married to her stepdad. They were all in porn, and she still managed to get a real estate license.

[C]

That's the most shocking. Yeah. If we're being real.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

The fact that they're both in porn. I mean, you should be asking, what porns?

[B]

That's what I just asked.

[C]

Oh, I thought, I know. What movies did he. I thought he.

[A]

I mean, he's older, like, but I mean, whatever.

[B]

So then he's in.

[A]

The heyday was probably like, you know, 90s, 2000s.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

That's all right. But I mean. Yeah, no, yeah, exactly.

[C]

Titanic.

[B]

Yeah, Titanic.

[A]

Titanic. Now this is kind of interesting. The families of the university of the Idaho murder victims are suing the Brian Kohlberger's school for damages. So the school he went to. Because they say that there were numerous warning signs. I think this is going to be a hard one. I really do. Because he was, well, an adult.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

He wasn't. He wasn't an 18 year old dorm kid who had an RA checking in on him. And that person didn't fall. I mean, it was like graduate school or whatever he was doing.

[B]

Teacher's assistant.

[A]

Yeah, he was like a teacher. So I mean, well, maybe then maybe because he was an employee of the school, maybe they. That is a little bit there.

[C]

Oh.

[B]

That they'll think that they can get.

[A]

But I don't think, I don't blame, I don't blame any victim's parents to be like, some attorney comes and it's like, oh, look, I think. And there's money at a university. So like I can't blame anyone for being like, whatever, I can't work. Yeah, yeah, do what you get me. What you can get me.

[B]

You know, the university at this point should just give it to them.

[C]

You should happily pay it.

[B]

They should just give them the money.

[C]

The same you would do like if. And I'm sure they all do if your, you know, child is involved in a, you know, a shooting at school. It's like it's your job to protect children. You hired this guy. He's a professor. He was acting erratically. A lot of the kids in the documentary who, who took his class were traumatized by his weird ass behavior.

[A]

Yes. Maybe there is enough warning signs and maybe there are people that wrote and called and said, and you know, there must be enough of a paper trail that shows that people were exactly just like at a school, you know, being negligent about the signs. And when people say, see something, say something. And then they're like, you'll be fine. Like, you know, watch the movie, put it in.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

If a bartender is liable, if I drink too over the bar and then I get in an accident or whatever, then you could sue the bartender. And it's like, well then that school needs to pay and happily pay.

[C]

And every school, whether it be in fact every school should send the money needs to start. Like they need to be paying attention to all of this because I mean that, that story is so horrific and so sad and he's so gross. I see a warning sign. Just looking at his photo yeah.

[A]

The sister. His sister has recently come out and said as gay.

[B]

No, she just wants.

[A]

No, she. She doesn't speaking about it, you know, nobody. That is a kind of something that I don't think has been touched enough. There's two things I don't think have been touched enough in the true crime world of obsession is one, how much it affects you when you're the peripheral person of a victim. It was your sister who was kidnapped, you know, and murdered. It was your. You know that, not the parent. We always focus on the parents. But, like, what. How the trajectory of your life might change when something that traumatic happens to someone in your family. The other one is your brother, your dad, whatever. I know there's that my dad was the BK killer thing. You find out that they do this horrific thing and, you know, people. And then in this day and age, people found her. People were asking her, you know, like, of course you would think everyone in his family. I mean, he just is a serial killer. Must be horrific, people. And, you know, she's like, no.

[C]

And.

[A]

She just basically said, yeah, it's horrific, but I still feel sad for him, but I'm glad he's away. And I feel horrible for the family, but it's just a very weird.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Place to be. But no, they didn't. According to the family, they didn't see signs. But maybe they're saying that too, like.

[C]

Well, I don't know. That thing where he. Didn't he have. That he had a disorder where he couldn't see.

[A]

Yeah, there was something.

[C]

Was it with his ears or dots?

[A]

Yeah, he was seeing dots a lot.

[C]

Everything would, like. It was really hard for him to see. So he developed, like, very weird social, like, cues and social interactions. So I think it would have been harder to see signs with him simply because he sort of had a different, like. Like normal existence or average existence because of what was going on with his eyesight. Yeah. But, I mean, you're right. I think you had that. You were like the first person to have that girl on who said she realized her dad had maybe murdered her sister.

[A]

Sister. Yeah.

[C]

And that was an interesting case of, like.

[A]

And she searched that. Yeah, she searched that for years.

[C]

Then all of her brothers rejected her. And, yeah, she became a pariah in the family. It is. We have a listener of our podcast who. Whose daughter was killed in. In Minneapolis in the church shooting. A little girl named Harper.

[B]

And.

[C]

And she has a sibling. And we just thinking like, you know, it's like, now you're the sibling of the lone Sibling.

[B]

And of this girl, your sister, who got shot up in a school and murdered. And how your parent. It's just like watching your parents and what that must be like. And just all of it. Just all that. Yeah, every bit of it. Just how the trauma of that is horrific.

[A]

All right, one last one.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

That is very strange.

[C]

So this looks good. What is this?

[A]

This. Okay. These brothers that were, you know, like, mid-40s or whatever had a business together. Okay. One brother is named Paul, and. Okay, so we'll just call it. So Paul started having an affair. He was married with kids, and he started having an affair with a woman. And he was stealing money from the business that he shared with his brother. He was taking money from this account that was supposed to pay for their, like, insurance and stuff to give to the mistress. And the brother found out and was, like, you know, very pissed. What the. Now I know. Like, not only are you stealing, you're cheating. Like, what the hell is going on? Probably threatened to, like, end the business. The next day, according to prosecutors, the brother Paul goes over to his. His other brother's house, the one who caught him having the affair and everything, and he turns off something outside, knowing that his brother would then come out in the middle of night to, like, turn on the generator or whatever. He kills him.

[C]

Wait, he. He killed him by an accident or.

[A]

He brought his gun and shot him.

[C]

Oh.

[A]

Then he goes in the house. I mean, this is just so awful. But you shouldn't be listening to juicy crimes if you can't handle this stuff, honestly. Okay, he goes in the house, he kills the wife.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

And then the two little kids, his niece and nephew. I don't know why, but he stabs them.

[C]

No.

[A]

And puts them in the basement and starts a fire. And according to the prosecution, they might have still been alive while the fire starts. So then the whole place burns. Then he goes to his own home and starts a fire there, but then manages to get key and his wife and kids out, hoping that it would look like who was after both of us. And I can't believe we were lucky enough to survive who was after us in our business. This happened in 2018, and the trial is just starting now because there were, like, Covid and attorneys quitting and fighting this and all this stuff, all because.

[C]

He wanted to give his mistress Jade, the money from the insurance.

[A]

All because. I mean, it's amazing how many men have a slip of the dick and then cannot get out of this quicksand of hell.

[C]

It's like, just face the consequences. Everyone doesn't have to die. Yeah.

[A]

Why did you kill the whole family?

[C]

Just like by the way. Your whole family?

[B]

Yeah. And your own brother, his wife in.

[A]

His head was like, my brother knows that I cheated on my wife and that I've been like shady about the business.

[B]

I mean, how much money?

[A]

Okay. The only way we can do this is to kill them all. Make it look like. Put a fire in so there'll be no, no evidence. Then start my own fire. But we'll get out to make it look like somebody was after both of us to end our lives. And I can be a great victim. I can cry at the funeral. I can. I lost my brother.

[B]

Oh. I mean that's.

[C]

He's not the sharpest tool in the chat.

[B]

No, no. Paul and Paul's never are. Paul's never are.

[A]

And like this, this is just one of the worst.

[B]

That is really one of the worst. And I really would.

[A]

And this was not only your brother, but like not only did you know him your whole life, but you were with him every day doing a business.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

But when men. When it's always like. It's always that too when men find out like, oh my God, I've been running a Ponzi scheme and everyone's. I gotta go kill myself. Just go kill yourself.

[B]

Yeah, just go kill yourself.

[C]

Don't make your sons kill themselves.

[B]

No. Even school shooters. Just kill yourself.

[C]

Yeah. Why does everyone else have to die for you?

[B]

Why are you shooting everyone up? Go in a room, shut the door and kill yourself. Like, I don't understand it. I truly don't. Now this guy, this is where I get.

[C]

So Paul is still living though. So we can enjoy Paul going trial.

[B]

And now has he been in prison the whole time?

[A]

Paul Canero.

[C]

Paul Canero, yeah. From Canero Bread.

[A]

They said that he hunted down his. His sister in law, niece and nephew after executing the kids for. So that the dad couldn't protect the family. You want to get rid of the dad first his brother.

[B]

Is he in prison or is he not?

[A]

Yeah, I mean he's been awaiting once he.

[C]

I'm probably going to say time service.

[A]

I don't know when he got arrested, but I'm just saying this crime happened in 2018. He's just now going trial, so it may took a while to get the arrest.

[B]

I have to say I am very surprised that he's. That they're allowing him to live in prison. Usually in prison they don't like when you do things to children, but.

[A]

Oh, speed again. Which you Know Jody Hildegard?

[C]

Yes.

[A]

From, from the evil influencer woman. I came across a tick tock where this girl goes, I know somebody who works at the prison where she's at or whatever. And they are awful to her.

[B]

Good.

[A]

They steal her laundry.

[B]

That's great.

[A]

Like whenever she's like washing her laundry, it just disappears. And they torture her and they all hate her. So that's good.

[B]

But that's what I was going to say with this guy. You'd think, first of all, I'm like, I'm just surprised he's alive.

[A]

I'm sure he's like in solitaire.

[B]

Oh, that's true. But I mean, you know, that's where you go.

[A]

I'm sure for a long time I, I want to look a little more into it, but I just, because now it makes me wonder like, did he get away with it? The first couple years where people, yeah. They really thought it was somebody else.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, that's always just so weird when you're acting like you're a victim too.

[B]

It's the worst.

[A]

You know, just like that. Just like the mom that, what was it called? The catfish caller. The high school.

[C]

Oh God, that was so much worse.

[A]

Where she's, she's acting like her daughter's being bullied for three years and the whole time it's her, the calls coming from inside the house and she's like.

[C]

Come on, bro, you can't make him come, bro. Like all this gross stuff. And it's like, oh God, you're calling your daughter bro.

[B]

And talking about that was one of the most shocking things I've ever seen in my life ever. Ever. Like literally when they revealed that that was, I mean, that's one of those.

[C]

Things you're talking about psychologically where it's like that little girl, it's like she has no choice but just to be like, I still love my mom.

[A]

Yeah. You know, I only have one like.

[B]

The Reiner's brother and sister, I think, because I thought to myself immediately that happened, I was like, my brother killed my parents.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I, I don't, I would have. I, I, I, I don't, I, I, my disassociative, I guess skills are good because my dad's a surgeon, but.

[C]

Yeah. So it's a sociopath in you.

[B]

There is like, there is a, there's a little sociopath in there that can disassociate.

[A]

But your brother did accidentally burn down the house.

[C]

He did, he did burn down, like Paul.

[A]

How did the fire start again?

[B]

He, he Put a cigarette out in the porch and it smoldered. Underneath the porch.

[A]

Were people in the house or everyone was.

[B]

Only he. He was in the house with a dog.

[C]

The dog.

[A]

He was like house sitting.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

My parents are on vacation and the dog saved him. How?

[B]

The dog saved him.

[A]

The dog woke him up.

[B]

Yeah. The whole house burned down. The house burnt down. He ran out of the house and watched the house burn down.

[C]

Probably smoking to the.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then. Wow, this sucks. The main thing. Yeah, exactly. He's like, oh, he. He then would.

[A]

For.

[B]

And then for years. I mean, he's quit smoking since. But for years.

[A]

I mean, that's a reason to quit smoking.

[B]

You'd think that that day maybe. But he'd come home for years for holidays, and he would be like, I'm going outside to have a cigarette. And I'd be like, you might not want to. You might not want.

[C]

And when I tell you when Julie smokes, I'll find like a. A salad bowl filled with ice water with one cigarette. And I'm like, did you really? First of all, this is like a salad bowl we eat out of. And now it's an ashtray filled with ice water. I just get stressed out. It's like, you just don't even want.

[A]

To put like a cigarette button.

[C]

It has to be in a full body of water. That's the two gallon body of water.

[B]

I'll pour water in it. If I like doing, like having my special smoke, I'll like get a thing of water. Do you think I have to have water sometimes? I'll just put water on the, on the porch.

[A]

Just have a little kiddie pool.

[C]

Yeah. Seriously. Sometimes she'll take like my cocktail and I'll be like, I'm not wasting the vodka for the. But she gets so stressed out, she's gonna start the, you know, anything. Altadena fires.

[B]

I don't want to be a part of a fire at all. And can tell you the trauma of somebody living through their house burning down still to this day. Just talked to my mom the other day. I don't know, Julie, I. I don't know where your birth certificate is. It was probably burned in the fire or. I don't know. I want. I was gonna show you the yearbook picture of your father, but it was burned in the fire. Like, it will come up now. Oh, that was when the. When we had the house. Like, she's angry still. She's mad. And I mean, nobody was hurt, but we did lose a lot of stuff. But you know, what are you gonna do sometimes?

[C]

Don't you just wish secretly, though, like, you're just like. It would be traumatizing. But then you'd be like, at least I would just be done with all of it. I could just start fresh.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Like, I've heard people who have a storage unit and the storage unit burns down and they're just like, just kind of glad it's all gone. Like, what was I doing with all that shit?

[A]

Storage units are the biggest waste of money.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You're like. I mean. Yeah, the biggest waste ever. Because what. I mean, what do you need that stuff for? You. Really?

[B]

Really.

[A]

That's why it's such a good business.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because then they, like, raise the price on you, and you're like, well, I got one day to move all this shit out to go somewhere else, because you're going to raise it by $30 more a month.

[C]

And all it is, is like a yearbook.

[A]

No, I. I had a friend who got divorced, and they were paying for a storage unit of this heavy, like, German furniture that they got from Germany or whatever. Like, it was like 9:40amonth. I'm like, you're rent 1500amonth or wherever she was. I'm like, she's like, well, we just have to put it in there until we can figure out what to do with it. And we were just like, let him have it. Like, furniture is not even expensive furniture, like, devalues so much. Like, go on, Wayfair. What the are you doing? Like, oh, anyway, all right. Well, girls.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

You know. You know them. You know, to follow them on their Instagram. Tell them your Instagram, because you guys are doing really funny cool stuff. And you can see clips of their show on there.

[B]

I'm at Mr. Juliegoldman.

[C]

And I'm at the Brandy Howard.

[A]

And of course, they have their show Dumb Gay Politics. They have their hilarious Patreon. They're going to be in Minneapolis doing theater. They are only going to be doing theater.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Nightmare and Strip Street. Just pure fun. Everyone's welcome.

[C]

It's a horror. Like, Dan Sexy dance show. It's funny.

[A]

Sexy.

[C]

Heather likes funny. Enjoyed your play. And we're like, but you did Heather, and you don't like life?

[A]

No, I loved it. I thought it was so fun. And if you're there, my God, you need an escape of some fun. Yes. And that's running from what dates?

[B]

February 24th, I believe, till March 22nd. Very nice. @ the Hollywood Theater in Minneapolis. So take a break. Just. Let's have fun. Be in a safe space where everyone's welcome just to laugh and be sexy and.

[A]

Excited. Lovely. Thank you. Bye.