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- [00:04]
A
When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp, the secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans. Send event invites and pin messages so no one forgets mom 60th and never miss a meme or milestone. All protected with end to end encryption. It's time for WhatsApp message privately with everyone. Learn more at WhatsApp.comlimukmu and Doug here.
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We have the Limu emu in its natural habitat helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug. Uh, Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us. Cut the camera. They see us. Only pay for what you need@libertymutual.com Liberty Liberty Liberty Liberty Savings vary unwritten Liberty Mutual Insurance Company affiliates excludes Massachusetts.
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A
This episode is brought to you by Netflix. Everyone is telling her she dreamt it.
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B
But in the woman in cabin 10, Lo Blacklock is determined to uncover the truth in the gripping new thriller coming to Netflix October 10th. Keira Knightley plays a journalist aboard a.
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A
Luxury yacht who witnesses a crime she can't unsee. Adapted from Ruth Ware's best selling novel.
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B
Directed by Simon Stone. Watch the woman in Cabin 10 only on Netflix on October 10th.
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A
Hello and welcome to Juicy Crimes. Well, I have a real juicy one for you today. Return guest and podcaster and author Andrea Dunlop. Welcome back to now Juicy Crimes.
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B
Thank you, Heather. It's such a pleasure to be a return guest. I feel very special.
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A
You have a great podcast about a very intriguing subject of Munchausen's with with mostly mothers and it's called Nobody Should Believe Me. Based on your own experience with your sister. You've had now several different seasons that cover different stories and you reached out and was like, I got a doozy one for you, Heather. And so this is season six. So let's get into it. What is this? Before we get to the latest one, actually I just want to talk to you briefly. What are your feelings about the Netflix doc that has just got everyone talking in the last few weeks? Which is unknown number or unknown caller? The high school catfish story about the worst cyberbullying mother in the world. Also inspired to do a Lifetime movie with Lisa Rinna, which possibly by the time this airs I will have watched it. Cause people are like, heather, you need to watch it now that the doc is out. But what was your thoughts when you heard about it five years ago? Cause I know I covered it. What do you think about a Mother that does that to her child.
- [03:09]
B
Yeah. I mean, so I had heard briefly about the story when it broke. And then I. The week that the documentary came out, unknown number. I have probably never gotten so many messages about a documentary. Everyone was just, you know, everyone was blowing me up about it. So I watched it. Yeah. I mean, in terms of Kendra Le Carrie. And I think the reason everyone was emailing me about it was because the police officer, like one of the detectives or. No, sorry, it wasn't one of the detectives. I think it was one of the school administrators. Yeah.
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A
It was a really profound statement. He's like, I think this is cyber Munchausen's by cyberbullying.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And I. It made me, when I was covering it with Dr. Drew and whatnot, go. I wonder if more things in this day and age, unfortunately, is going to come out where a parent is involved or just someone really close to you that's posing. It could be your spouse, your best friend, your sister, your neighbor, you know, and you're. You're being tormented by this cyberbully haters. And it could be someone that you really know. Yeah. What are you. So give me your. Some of your thoughts on all of that.
- [04:17]
B
Yeah, I mean, in terms of the Munchausen comparison, that did feel, you know, although, like Munchausen behaviors are really sort of specifically associated with medical stuff. But this is the exact kind of behavior. And I really think it's for that same set of motivations. Right. That we talk about in Munchausen by proxy cases where you're talking about, you know, a mother and daughter who are really enmeshed. You're talking about a mother who obviously has extraordinary, unhealthy coping mechanisms and is really doing this for the purposes of creating a crisis where she can then be one of the victims of that crisis. Right. Because that was one of the things that came out. And I think I was reading elsewhere that she was, you know, like, you know, so on the school officials and sort of making this huge find out and really being like, oh, I'm on this crusade for my daughter, which of course feels very Munchausen y. And then just the. Just in terms of like the psychological torture. I mean, one of the things that with Munchausen survivors, you know, Munchausen by proxy survivors, although they do oftentimes have physical complications, I think the psychological torture that they're subjected to is worse. And it is that kind of thing where it's like the attempt to isolate the. You know, the creating a crisis so that you can then Comfort your daughter and using that as, like, a way to. As a sort of sick way to bond with your child, that, you know, that they're having this crisis that then you can sort of be the hero of. And then you have this extra element of her, you know, of the creepiness with the daughter's boyfriend and, you know, her seeming very, like, inappropriately attached and inappropriately in the middle. And then, you know, I read in, I think, the cut that she had tried to, like, go out to Florida for one of his, you know, baseball games or something. And you just. That, I think, is, you know, this is predatory behavior. And I think, like, it's really important that we don't. And I. People do not seem at all sympathetic to this mother, which is good. They shouldn't be. You know, we should not see this as like, oh, this is like a mental illness. Like, yes, it's not mentally well behavior, but this person's a predator. You know, someone. You just like, someone that would do that to their own child is horrific.
- [06:31]
A
Before we move on to your case, how do you feel about what has happened with Gypsy Rose since she left prison? She had a reality show which has now been canceled, I think. I don't think she's. She got divorced. The first husband that looked like the mother, and then got with the other guy who was the father of a child. I can't remember the latest. I feel like the hype and the interest has waned, and I think she liked that publicity. So what are your thoughts of what she should do or what you predict will happen with her?
- [07:10]
B
Yeah, I mean, it's such a complicated story, because I think on the one hand, you know. You know, everyone who's involved in the professional side, like, we all recognize that this was such a sort of unparalleled moment for visibility of this abuse, and that that has made the general public much more familiar with it than they were before. And I think that's a good thing. But I've always just been so worried about her because I think going from this kind of environment where you're totally isolated with your mother and you're really being psychologically, emotionally, you know, and physically tortured, and then going straight from that to prison and then straight from PR to being really quite famous for a moment, you know, she's getting millions of social media followers. She's doing all these interviews.
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A
She got cute.
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B
Yeah.
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A
She knows.
- [07:57]
B
She had. She had the. You know, she had the Lifetime show. She's having these tumultuous relationships with men, and now she's had, you know, has had a child. And so I just really hope for her that she finds some really good support. And I think it would be good for her if she could find a way to make a living out of the public eye. Like, it's hard to criticize her because what else is she gonna do to.
- [08:21]
A
Just be working at, like, a store where everybody's coming in and talking to you? Yeah, I mean, she is very well spoken when I've heard her, you know, on her show, in an interview.
- [08:30]
B
Yeah, I've spoken with her and she's, you know, she seems very sweet, and I, you know, I just really like. I very much. I very much want the best for her. Obviously, she did, you know, obviously she did a horrible thing, but also, I think there's, like, you cannot lose sight of the context in that one. And also, you know, she served. She served time. So I know people have really complicated feelings about the case, but. Yeah, I mean, I just hope, especially now that, you know, she's a parent that she can really. And her. Her stepfather and her father. And her stepfather seems really lovely. And I've never heard anything, sort of seen anything about them that makes me think that they're sort of, like, trying to go along for the ride or anything. They really do genuinely seem like a good support system.
- [09:10]
A
So, yeah, I definitely. Yes, the whole thing was just insane with all of that. But, okay, let's get into what. Oh, I was going to ask in studying about this. Are there. Because I asked Dr. Drew this, and he didn't really know as far as specifically for Munchausen's, since you're, like, an expert, are there ever women. Because we're not really seeing the cyber bully mom take responsibility. I'm always so curious why someone does it. And when they've been found out, do they ever say, really admit, like, yeah, I did this. And, yeah, I got a high off of everyone bringing me a casserole. And, like, do they ever really take ownership that they were doing this and they were conscious when they were doing it?
- [10:03]
B
It is vanishingly rare for a perpetrator to take anything like full accountability. Normally, you see them admit to what? Only what there is hard evidence of when they're sort of backed into a corner. So in these police interviews, you know, they'll say, oh, I just did it the one time, or it, you know, oh, I just. I just was having this, you know, really hard time for X, Y and Z reasons. Or, you know, I was the victim of this crime, or what have you and so there's a lot of. There's a lot of, you know, justification and minimization. And you saw that in the unknown number thing, right, when they had. And I was so fascinated that they got Kendra to be part of it at all. But my, you know, her conversation with, you know, her conversation in the doc, it so reminded me of my conversation with Hope Ybarra, who was convicted and did, you know, 10 years in prison for abusing her daughter. And I met with her through Munchausella, and I met with her in person, and that was the finale of our first season. And, you know, she did the same thing. It was so similar. Right. Number one, she cried and she talked about how sorry she was without sort of talking about what she'd done and talked about how much she loved her children and. And sort of said, oh, well, like, well, I guess I did it because. Or I think I did it because. And sort of this way of, like, separating herself from her actions. Right. And you sort of saw Kendra do the same thing, right, when she, like, at one point, the producer suggests to her, oh, do you think you did it because you were having these body image issues and you were protecting. She goes, oh, yeah, yeah, I think that.
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A
And you're like, yeah, like, he gave her the idea.
- [11:36]
B
Yeah. And just sort of, you know, that she was talking a lot about, you know, that she brought up her. Her assault that she said happened, which is that what she said.
- [11:44]
A
I was like, I remember when she was like. And I had. What did she claim happened?
- [11:48]
B
She was making this very sort of mental gymnastics, you know, justification for this horrific behavior towards her daughter, that she was. That she had been, you know, assaulted when she was a teen, like, sexually assaulted when she was a teenager. And that when she saw her daughter become a teenager, she was worried that it would happen to her.
- [12:09]
A
I'm curious if that was. Cause I'm like, I needed some hard evidence of that. I needed the cousin who said, if she was standing right here while I gave an interview, she'd be doing a cartwheel. I need the cousin to be like, yes, she was kidnapped on the way home from school. It was very traumatic. And, you know, it was the 80s and we brushed it off and she never got therapy. Like, I need to know. And maybe if it was, no, I never told. Well, then that's also acceptable that we know that happens as well. But I feel like she pulled that out of thin air.
- [12:39]
B
Yeah. And, you know, so I wanna say a couple of things about that, because this kind of thing almost always comes up in these cases, right, where they sort of report a history of, you know, assault or being the victim of some other crime.
- [12:52]
A
The Munchausen's mom.
- [12:53]
B
The Munchausen's mom. And so I think, you know, most people would never falsely say that they were assaulted. But when you're dealing with someone like this, and especially when they're presenting it as a justification for why they did what they did, you should be sort of rightfully skeptical because there isn't any known. You know, there are some personality disorders, like borderline personality disorder that are very tied to child abuse or childhood abuse and that kind of thing. And like previous trauma, Munchausen behavior and the kind of behavior that Kendra was involved in is not related to a history of trauma. So obviously, sexual assault is unfortunately relatively common. So that's not to say that it didn't happen. Right. But also, like most people who are assaulted do not go on to do that kind of thing to their children.
- [13:42]
A
What do you, in your opinion, what do you think the common denominator driving force is? Is it just attention seeking for the mother?
- [13:52]
B
You know, I actually, as I've gotten, you know, years into deep diving these cases, and I think, especially, you know, with the one that we're going to talk about today, what I've really come to appreciate more, I mean, I think it is about sort of that attention and sympathy and narcissism of being the, you know, of being the center of attention in your child's story. But I think it's really a lot more about power than people realize. And this is, you know, being a parent and sort of having power over your children and their sphere. Right. Talking about, like, moms being involved in schools and that and that kind of thing, that's really one of the only places that we give women full authority without question. And so I think, like, abusers abuse people the way they find it.
- [14:34]
A
That is actually really profound. Yeah, that's the only place we give women full authority without question.
- [14:41]
B
And so abusers will abuse power where they find it. And, you know, so when you see like, male, you know, child sex abuse, you see, you know, it's the head of the church, it's the boy Scout leader, it's the. So it's again, it's someone that's close and intimate with the child, but it's like we just don't give, you know, historically have not given women those kind of roles. And so I think that's why they. And motherhood is, it's such a powerful archetype. You know, and so I think that's why people just, even when this behavior setting off red flags, just kind of don't look at it closer because there's this knee jerk thing of like, they just can't imagine that a mother would do that to their child. But I think it's also about, you know, it's about power and it's about control, right? It's about being in control of the narrative.
- [15:22]
A
I think also as a mom, you know, it's such a hard job, but you look at another mother that is struggling with a child that has special needs or, my gosh, sick like this, and it's that immediate like, that woman's a saint. Because since you were not put in that position to have to care for a child like that, as a fellow mother, you have to feel, you know, sympathy and admiration and want to be helpful because you're like, thank you, God, that that hasn't happened to me.
- [15:56]
B
So.
- [15:56]
A
And then when we find out it is a lie, then moms really get fucking pissed and are like, now, how dare you not be a good mother? Like, you know, I think that's a big part of it. Sherry Papini, who I interviewed, who was infamously the cute blonde who was kidnapped from writing California that I've had on the show. And one of the things in.
- [16:24]
B
In.
- [16:24]
A
Her custody battle with her now ex husband is in one of the documentaries that was out there, there was an accusation or an insinuation of a little bit of like a Munchausen's thing, which she did not want to talk about that on the interview in which he said, you know, my kids, she would put some cloth around their neck with alcohol to make them stay sicker or something like that. She said, no, that was essential oils. Like you would put like a Bengay or whatever on their chest to let them breathe. But, you know, so it was a lot of pointing. She was like, he was abusive and awful. And that's why I had to. That's why I was talking to this guy who then eventually kidnapped me. That's her story. Now his story is like, she was a pathological liar. And also I'm fighting for the kids because I don't feel like they're safe. And do you think there's a correlation of Munchausen's with pathological lying? As you know, and with her, she did have real evidence that she was abused by a family member. At least her mother knew about it at the time and spoke about it.
- [17:43]
B
I've not done a full deep Dive on the Sherri Papini case because we are going to cover it in the future. So I've been like, hoarding, including your interview with her, like hoarding all of my Sherry Papini links. But I will say that like just in terms of the behaviors, you know, I think that obviously the medical child abuse piece of it, right. Which is the act of exaggerating, inducing or fabricating an illness in your child, like that piece of it is something that we focus a lot because that is sort of the harm to the child. But I will say when you zoom out on these cases and you know, one thing I know from covering a bunch of them is that you just see the most wild behavior. I mean, when I started the show, I sort of thought, oh, this is, this is ultimately kind of a niche topic. I don't. And then I'm like, I could do this forever. Because every case is like, you know, they have their similarities, but then they just have these wild elements. And so what you see is that people just, you know, the deception is, is, is the abuse, right? I mean that is so central to the abuse. Sometimes they're doing physical stuff, but it really is, you know, characterized by intentional deception. And what you see is that the perpetrators are lying about everything to everyone all the time. So you don't just see it about medical stuff. You see, you know, they're claiming to have been victims of crimes that like, didn't happen. You know, like, like sort of fake 911 call type of things. You see them lying about their work credentials. So, so, so much financial fraud, so much scamming. And so I think in terms of like, yeah, the sort of broader group of behaviors, you know, it's this cluster B stuff. So narcissistic personality disorder, borderline personality disorder, you know, those kind of behaviors. So. And I think there, there's a range of them. You know, some, some of them are not, you know, some of them don't get to the level of the cases that I talk about on, on the show. But you really do see just pervasive, pervasive deception. And the other thing we see a lot of is affairs and like two and a half years.
- [19:41]
A
So the women are having the affairs too. God, how do you have time to do all this?
- [19:44]
B
I mean, because they are not working. I think it's cause scamming is there is their full time job. Yeah, I mean, like I've, I've covered numerous cases where, you know, it came out that the woman was having like, you know, not like an Affair with a co worker, but, like, a bunch, you know. So this sort of feels almost like.
- [20:01]
A
A sex addict, too.
- [20:03]
B
Yeah, And I think it's, you know, it really comes down to, like, this type of psychopathology is, you know, they have low impulse control, and they're really just sort of opportunistic and. And. And they like pulling one over on people. I mean, I think that's what, you know, my psychiatrists and psychologists, colleagues talk about is that, like, part of it is. Whereas for people who are not like this, you know, most of us are really uncomfortable lying. Like, Right. If somebody tells you, you have to, like, you know, if you were, like, lying about your device, sat here and just lied to you about my whole life story, like, I would be sweating, I would be panicking. I'd be looking over weird. But, like, because it makes me really uncomfortable. Yeah, but for these people, they're right in their sweet spot, so that does not make them uncomfortable. And it gives them a thrill. And so I think, you know, you look at these of like, well, how do people pull this off? And why do they seem so credible? It's because when you're talking to them one on one, they don't act like a person who's lying. They're not being shifty and kind of, you know, they have this intense compartmentalization about, like, they know they're lying. They're not delusional. They're culpable for their actions. They. But, like, they're able to sort of behave like it's the truth in the moment. And so I think. And I think they can be very convincing. And it's sort of why you really have to, you know, every time I'm. I'm reaching out to a perpetrator or talking to one, it's like, oh, I really have to know my facts going in, because they'll just, you know, they. They will. They will tell you a very convincing story every time. It's like there's a sort of reality distortion field around them.
- [21:27]
A
Yeah, I. I did reach out to Sherry Papini afterwards because I had one question and she'd reached out to me to say, oh, I did another podcast and thought of you or something. I was like, okay, do them all, girl. I don't really, you know, it's fine. But I said, oh, I forgot to ask you about the weird. Your haircut that you showed up afterwards. And the hair was cut like, but it wasn't a terrible haircut. It wasn't shaved. It was like a bob. And I'M like, why would your former boyfriend slash kidnapper if he was just into S and M kind of stuff and keeping you hostage, doing that kind of sexual assault of you? Where does the haircutting come in? Because I don't remember that from 50 Shades of Gray. And I. So I'm like, I think some. The hair, you know, if you want to not believe or believe, part of it is that, yeah, she cut the hair to, like, either look different or add to the abuse or something. Anyway, she didn't write me back.
- [22:29]
B
It's going to be really interesting to see how that unfolds, and I'm gonna be very interested to dig into this whole case.
- [22:36]
A
Let's get into this case. Season 6 of Nobody should Believe Me. This is the woman. What is her name?
- [22:44]
B
So this is Lisa McDaniel. So she is a mother of three. And, you know, the reason I reach out to you about this case is because this story, which I've known for several years, I've known this family for quite a while. We reported the story with Lisa's. With Lisa's eldest daughter, Michelle, who very bravely came forward to talk about this. And so this had really been years in the making. And this is just of all the stories I've covered, I've never seen someone who's gotten away with it at this level. So Lisa McDaniel was convicted of abusing her middle daughter, Angelyn. And the details of this conviction, the details of this case were some of the most extreme that I've seen and some of the most straightforward because this was, you know, it's. They do use covert video surveillance in these cases, which they did, which is, you know, they put them in a hospital room where there's video surveillance.
- [23:49]
A
Does every hospital room have video surveillance?
- [23:51]
B
No, not every hospital has video surveillance. And this is something that's actually come up in another case that's happening in San Diego that people. That's, you know, subject to this big lawsuit and people are, you know, have, I think, some strong. Some strong reactions to the idea that there would be video surveillance in a hospital room. But I think people need to remember, like, hospitals are not private spaces.
- [24:12]
A
I mean, I think that they should.
- [24:14]
B
Yeah. I mean. Yes.
- [24:16]
A
You know.
- [24:16]
B
Yeah, for a lot of reasons.
- [24:18]
A
I mean, maybe not if you're, like, getting a sponge bath or something like that. I mean, obviously not where it's. But for the protection of the medical profession when there's so many malpractice suits and then, of course, the patient protection, and then maybe if someone was Accusing you of, you know, being Munchausens and you weren't so.
- [24:37]
B
Right.
- [24:37]
A
I mean, they're not expensive. You could have a ring camera in every room of your house. Why not have it in every classroom and in every hospital?
- [24:46]
B
I mean, I 100% agree with you. And I think people should definitely be aware of how much pushback there is on that. There's a lot of pushback against. There's a lot of pushback from parents rights groups right now that are making it in myriad ways, like, harder to catch and prosecute abuse. But so with this.
- [25:06]
A
So what, like, what, what city are we in and what year is this and how old is the child?
- [25:12]
B
Yes. So we are in Hazlehurst, Georgia, which is a pretty small rural town in southeast Georgia, and the child is a baby when this is happening. So very familiar trajectory from these cases where she was born severely premature and so did have some existing issues when she was born. Now, something that comes up a lot in these cases because you have, you know, not only a lot of premature births. And just to say premature births by themselves are not a red flag. Premature birth is common. But when it comes to one of these cases, you know, we have had perpetrators who have spoken about the fact that they induced a premature birth. And because of sort of this overall.
- [25:54]
A
Trajectory, oh, my God, right from the start, they wanted a preemie to have that kind of medical attention.
- [26:02]
B
Well, because then you have, you know, if a child's born, especially if they're born, you know, sort of 26, 27 weeks, like, really early, they're going to have legitimate issues. So then you're causing the child to have legitimate issues.
- [26:11]
A
That's crazy that someone is thinking about it and planning it when the baby's in utero.
- [26:16]
B
Well, I think, you know, it's because this behavior and whether it's explicitly about medical stuff or just this, you know, the stuff with Lisa was just, you know, that her. Because we also spoke to her younger sister for the show and, you know, just there was a long history of deception. So the behaviors start before they have children, inevitably. I've never talked about it.
- [26:38]
A
But with her first child, who then spoke with you. She was not abused.
- [26:42]
B
She. No, she was. She was not medically abusing. She was abused in other ways. But she. Yeah, she was not. She was not the target of abuse. And I've seen that in a couple of other cases. The Hopi Bar case was the same for some reason. The first child wasn't medically abused, and then the second child was a Little bit. And then the third child got it the worst. So I do think it's this behavior. You know, I think Dr. Drew was talking about this the other day, Right. About how these behaviors are function, like addiction, where they have to sort of keep one upping it and keep doing something more, you know, more dangerous, more extreme, to get that same sort of high that they're getting from it. And I think that that sort of fits the bill, but. So she had, you know, they had this child who was having all of these breathing issues and had a tracheostomy and was having all these gastrointestinal issues. Just a lot of the stuff that you see in these cases. And, you know, they kept going into the hospital, and they were, you know, driving out to Savannah, and she was staying at the Ronald McDonald House. And it was this whole thing. And they were telling family members that they thought she was gonna die. And, you know, her husband later testified that they were, you know, that they were shopping for a dress for the child to be buried in. I mean, just very, very unnerving. And what came out after they put her, you know, some of the nurses suspected. And we actually talked to one of. One of the nurses who'd cared for. Who'd cared for Angelyn, you know, that they suspected that the mom might be causing it. And they put her in this video surveillance room, and they caught 55. 0 instances during the time period they were videoing her. 55 0550. Yeah. 50. 50 of her either attempting to suffocate the child or injecting substances into her iv. And she was getting. She was going septic, and she nearly died a couple.
- [28:29]
A
What kind of. What was she trying to put in the iv?
- [28:32]
B
She was. She was putting feces in the iv. Yeah, that was what they caught on.
- [28:36]
A
So she, like, took a shit.
- [28:39]
B
Well, the child had a diaper. Yeah.
- [28:41]
A
And then was like. And you, like.
- [28:44]
B
You can. Yeah. So there was like a. There was, like. There was videotape of her. Because I haven't actually. I've seen the transcript of the videotape, but I haven't actually watched it, which, you know, is probably better for me and my mental health. But Sabrina, the child's aunt and Lisa's younger sister, had seen the video, and, you know, she described her going down into the diaper and putting stuff in and then also, like, having something that she brought along with her.
- [29:09]
A
Oh, my God.
- [29:10]
B
Yeah. And so.
- [29:11]
A
And how old was the baby during those instances?
- [29:13]
B
It's months. Yeah. So little baby and, you know, so she was caught. She was arrested. She was sentenced to eight months. That's how much she served. So she's given, like six months to a year. She served eight months in a women's detention facility.
- [29:29]
A
What happened to the baby?
- [29:31]
B
So the baby went into medical foster care for a while, and then once she was well enough, her and her older sister Michelle went to live with Lisa's parents, who were protective and recognized that the abuse was happening. You know, they never defended. In some of these situations, you'll see, you know, parents or grandparents, you know, really stick up for the perpetrator. I think in this case, probably it helped that it was so straightforward. It wasn't kind of one of these more complicated cases that you have to kind of walk someone through. It's pretty. I think it's pretty obvious without any context of Munchausen by proxy that that's not an okay thing to do to a child. Um, so they were with them for a time. And basically, you know, after Lisa got out, she and her husband, Carrie, who, by the way, had been sitting in the room while she was doing this to the child.
- [30:18]
A
The husband was. So what do you think? Did he know?
- [30:23]
B
Yeah, I, I, I strongly believe he knew. And he is. He has stood by her for, you know, just in every circumstance over, over decades. So, yeah, I think.
- [30:32]
A
Are they still together?
- [30:33]
B
They're still together.
- [30:35]
A
So he loses his two kids, visits her in jail for six months, and she gets out.
- [30:42]
B
So she gets out, and then she lobbies relentlessly to get her kids back. And she has another child, her son Colin, in 2002.
- [30:52]
A
Here's the photo. Okay, so the dad is named Carrie. The mom is Lisa. This oldest daughter is.
- [30:59]
B
That's Michelle, who was with us on the season.
- [31:01]
A
She's the oldest daughter who then went to live with the grandmother. This blonde girl with the glasses was the preemie baby, who was Angeline.
- [31:08]
B
Yeah.
- [31:09]
A
And then this is the newest boy, and that's Colin. Colin. So while they're living with the grandmother, they were able to have visits or supervised visits to have taken this Christmas photo.
- [31:19]
B
So they were having supervised visits, but probably by the time that this photo was taken, they were actually all reunited, so basically.
- [31:28]
A
And living back with a mom.
- [31:29]
B
And living back with a mom.
- [31:30]
A
So.
- [31:31]
B
So they.
- [31:32]
A
How did the parents feel about that? Were they just hopeful because they didn't, or how hard did they fight to.
- [31:37]
B
Let it not happen? I mean, I think they really tried to keep the girls in their house, and they certainly recognized that. They certainly recognized that Lisa was not a Safe parent. But, you know, the state did not. The state, you know, the judge originally in the case said that, you know, Lisa's rights should be terminated, but they never were. And that's. I think that's something that would surprise most people about child abuse cases. You can go to jail for child abuse and not have your rights terminated. That's not an automatic thing. That's an extra step that the court has to take or someone has to sort of like, lobby for it. But, you know, despite that, when CPS got involved, when, you know, after Colin was born, because obviously this is a person who's not living with her child. Children because of abuse, you know, they just kind of got in there and the. There was a. The state filed for what's called deprivation, which means, like, take. To take the custody of. Take custody of the child away. A judge dismissed it, and then basically everyone said, like, all right, well, that's it. And so then once she had, you know, once she had Colin and had custody, she just really started lobbying to get the girls back. And, you know, Michelle talked about she wanted to be back with her parents. You know, I think one of the most heartbreaking things about these cases and sort of saw it in unknown number, right, where she's talking about missing her mom. It's like, well, yeah, the children, you know, the perpetrators don't feel any real bond with the children. Right. They're treating them as objects to get what they want. But the children feel a strong bond to their parents too, just like they all do. It's primal. It's survival, Right. You have to. You have to depend on your parents to survive. And so I think just the parents just dealing with this relentless pressure. And I think that's what people kind of underestimate about these perpetrators is they are relentless about getting what they want on a level that most of us just would not, you know. Yeah, sort of. They will go to such extremes, right. And so they just kept petitioning the courts and they finally got custody. I think of Michelle back first and then eventually Angelyn, and then, you know, by this time, I think they were all living back under the same roof.
- [33:43]
A
And what are they doing to make money to survive as a family?
- [33:48]
B
Mostly getting money from other people. So Carrie was at one point, the. Carrie, the dad was a pastor at a church. Lisa. Lisa was in an MLM. But as I'm sure, you know, 99% of people who are in MLMs do not make. Do not make any money. Although I. I will say with how scammy MLMs are, you know, if there was going to be someone in that 1%, it was probably Lisa, but we don't think she probably made any significant income from that. Okay. You know, and you saw. You see this pattern, you know, early on, of there are so many people, you know, family members, people from the church. Churches, unfortunately, make such a mark for these perpetrators because they're so used to that idea of, like, you know, community and giving and helping people and really, like, calling for, you know, donations if someone has a crisis. And that really gets taken advantage of in these cases. So they got a lot of money from people at church, you know, money from the grandparents.
- [34:43]
A
What was the crisis? Now, how old is the. How old was the boy when he suddenly gets sick?
- [34:50]
B
Yeah. So a few years after the, you know, the last sort of involvement from the state, Colin, at age 5, I want to say. Sorry, let me just. Oh, I think he was actually. Yes. Hi. So Colin, when he's about five, you know, allegedly, according to Lisa, has this incident where he wakes up and he can't see.
- [35:19]
A
Can't see.
- [35:20]
B
Can't see. Okay. And so she takes him in and they start off on this sort of diagnostic odyssey where she is, you know, trying to figure out what's going on with her son. And Lisa, at this time, starts a blog, like, right away. So one of these caregiver blogs where, you know, you see these. This one was on Caring Bridge. So, you know, these sites that are meant to, like, keep family members involved or, like, you know, they serve a good purpose. Right. So. But obviously in this context, they're very creepy. So this blog was, in total, it went for the entire four years, and it was 170,000 words long. So like, you know, a couple times the size of a book. So extremely lengthy, extremely detailed in terms of, like, treatments and medications and all of that. And so she gets him this diagnosis of neuromyelitis optica, which is a rare autoimmune condition that affects the myelin on nerves. So it can cause a variety of symptoms. It's characterized by, you know, people will have lesions in their brain or spinal cord, and it can have kind of this. It can be very, very serious. There is much better treatment for it now, and actually there was pretty decent treatment for it at the time. But it can cause, you know, people to go blind. It can cause disability. It is a. It is a serious condition, and it's a relapsing condition. So you would have, like, an attack, and then, you know, you'd kind of recover and Then have another one. And so she gets this diagnosis. It's in this. This vanishingly rare diagnosis. And then it's even rarer in children and even rarer in male children and even rarer than that in white male children. So just, you know, right away, even rarer than that.
- [37:08]
A
Redheads.
- [37:10]
B
I don't know if there's any. There are. Everyone's. I know everyone's. Everyone's redheaded. But, you know, so already you have this setup where you have someone who is a convicted perpetrator. And just to say, like, this is not, you know, this is not. You were asking earlier about sort of do people ever take accountability for this? And I've heard of one or two cases where people really took accountability and entered some successful treatment. And, you know, my colleagues on the. On the psychologist, psychiatrist side have a treatment model, and the very first step is taking full accountability. And Lisa in no way took accountability for what she did to Angela. You know, she minimized it. She got some psychiatrist to say that she didn't have Munchausen by proxy. And it was just in the first case, the first. With the first case where you have this very straightforward evidence. So, you know, she never took accountability for that. She was, at this point, no. So he. His family members, you know, and just to say, like, we do not have access to Collins medical records. However, you know, we have this lengthy blog from Lee, and what we do have is, you know, recollections from the family. None of the family members remember him having any issues with his eyesight. And then you have, you know, all of these periods. So immediately, you know, she. She gets this diagnosis of neuromyelitis optica, and then he's being treated with steroids. And then immediately they just go to, you know, she's pushing for sort of the next most extreme treatment and this treatment and that treatment. And he's never, you know, he's just getting worse than. And worse. And he's. He's, you know, never has any good days. And she starts talking about death really early. About five months into after his diagnosis, she starts talking about hospice care, which is obviously a huge red flag and really common in these cases where you see a parent who is talking about death for something that is not a terminal illness. So NMO is not a terminal diagnosis. It can be really serious. It can have. You know, people do sometimes die from an attack, right? If they have, like a respiratory failure during an attack is, I think, the most common way. But, like, it's not something where, you know, it's not like getting a leukemia diagnosis where you're like, you have, you know, X amount of years to live. And so obviously, really alarming that she's talking about death and especially with all sort of the context. And so basically, you know, this poor little boy is given all of these, you know, treatments, and then she's taking him for the first period of time to the same hospital in Savannah where she was caught, you know, abusing her daughter. And so some people catch on, right? And we talked to, we talked to one of the nurses who worked there who, you know, saw. Saw his name and, you know, on the, on the board in the PICU and was like, oh, my God, McDaniel. And so you did have people, you know, calling in these, calling in these, these concerns. And then, you know, under a year into the diagnosis, Lisa moves the entire family to Alabama, to Birmingham to be close to this doctor, Dr. Jane Ness from University of Alabama and Children's of Alabama, who is. She is an expert in nmo. But of course, that move was, you know, we eventually found out that that move was sort of directly tied to Lisa getting questions at the hospital. And, you know, and then like, sort of the next day there, she's emailing a relative and saying that they're gonna move. So she moves across state line. Again, another really common thing with these perpetrators, right? Like, if, oh, the heat's on, go to a new hospital, get new hospital, new community. Right. No one's asking questions. Cause obviously news of her first conviction. This is a very small town that she was living in Hazlehurst, Georgia. You know, everyone knew. And so, you know, it's obviously like, even if people aren't super familiar with.
- [40:58]
A
So she takes the whole family, the husband takes the whole family, takes two girls, and they go, how far away from their original house?
- [41:05]
B
Oh, gosh. A geography question.
- [41:06]
A
I mean, just approximately.
- [41:08]
B
Yeah, it's like. I think it's like a, you know, 10, 12 hour drive. I mean, it's like significant. Decently far away. Yeah. So again, not. Not close to family members, not close to the support system. So they take them to this new community. And unfortunately, this doctor just gets completely enmeshed with Lisa and they get, you know, very involved. And I think she just was really, you know, wrapped around her finger. And that was one of the most interesting things we got with the season, was that Michelle had recorded a conversation with herself and Dr. Jane Ness, you know, asking her about Colin.
- [41:46]
A
Wait, who's Michelle now?
- [41:47]
B
Michelle is the. The older sister.
- [41:49]
A
Okay, so how old is she then? When she does.
- [41:53]
B
She was a teenager, so she was.
- [41:55]
A
Was she starting to get suspicious?
- [41:58]
B
Yes. And she, you know, sort of kept trying to bring it to attention, but I think she just didn't. You know, she's also obviously extremely traumatized by everything that had been happening in her family. And, you know, what the family members described to me was, was that they were like, they were concerned, but he appeared to have this very legitimate diagnosis from a very legitimate doctor. And, you know, even the nurse who we spoke to at the time that it was happening said she kind of felt like, oh, well, like, that's. Wow, that's just like really bad luck that that parent ends up having a sick child. Right. Because you just. There was, you know, when you think like, oh, well, if the doctors. And this is assumption, an assumpt a lot of people make. Right. Well, if the doctors are giving that diagnosis, well, then, okay, he must really have it.
- [42:48]
A
Yeah.
- [42:48]
B
So I think they really. They were concerned, but they really. And they, you know, I think, suspected she was making it worse, but they were, you know, were. Did believe that that was a real diagnosis.
- [42:58]
A
So the daughter records a conversation between the doctor and the mom, Lisa.
- [43:04]
B
No. So this is actually. This is actually much later on that she ends up following up with this doctor. But at the time when this is all happening, you know, there are all of these incredibly. You know, I know some of this from, you know, from reading. Again, we don't have the medical records, and Lisa's not a reliable narrator, but in her blog, you know, she's talking about all of these treatments he's getting and how she's pushing for him to have this treatment that he could die from. And she's upset when they don't get it, which is a huge red flag. And then you see all of this stuff that really isn't. Doesn't have anything to do with his diagnosis. So you see him coming in to the hospital with a bunch of blood infections. And so you have these polymicrobial blood infections, which is when you have multiple organisms in the blood. And it's very, very much a red flag for Munchausen by proxy, just kind of all by itself. Right. Because if you can't figure out why the child has a blood infection and he had.
- [43:59]
A
And how would she have done that?
- [44:01]
B
Well, he had. He had a port. Yeah.
- [44:04]
A
So she could have put something in there.
- [44:05]
B
Yeah. And I mean, obviously she's already been caught on video doing the same thing to her daughter, so there's really no question of whether she's Capable of it. And so you have, you know, numerous instances of him coming into the emergency room with septis and almost died a couple of times. And then you have this other trajectory that is so ubiquitous in these cases where you just see all of this stuff about gastrointestinal issues. So, you know, he can't eat and he can't keep food down, and he.
- [44:30]
A
You know, feeding tube.
- [44:31]
B
He ends up getting a feeding tube, you know, first to the nose and then the gastro tube through the. Through the stomach. And that, again, has nothing to do with nmo. Like, it can cause, you know, like, people can have sort of vomiting reactions during attacks sometimes, but it's not this. Like, it's not, you know, this. This ongoing sort of gastrointestinal issues are atypical. And so as I'm reading this, you know, you just think, how are the doctors not catching on? And then I found out that Dr. Jane Ness, who is this treating physician, had gotten a call from the doctor in. In Savannah that, that they were concerned about Colin and that Lisa had this previous conviction. So she knew that Lisa had been convicted for abusing her daughter. But to our knowledge, no one ever reports once they're in Alabama. And Lisa, in early 2012, starts to take things to the end of the line. And it's this period right before where actually Colin. It's the longest she ever goes dark on the blog. And she, you know, talks about like, oh, Colin's actually doing better. And, you know, he's. This is the longest he's ever gone without having an attack. And then suddenly she starts the blog back up at the end of 2011, and suddenly things have taken this sort of mysterious, dire turn. And then she brings in. In January, she brings in hospice care, like, end of life hospice care. And again, not something that makes any sense for the diagnosis that he has. And, you know, she is planning his funeral and she's choosing a coffin and, you know, posting constantly on Facebook and sort of saying, oh, this is the last family picture we'll ever have with him. And, you know, just very, you know, very disturbing behavior online. And in March, he passes away in.
- [46:30]
A
March of 2011, 2012. And so then what happens? So it's. They have a big funeral.
- [46:39]
B
Yeah. So they have, you know, big funeral there in Alabama, and then they have one in Hazlehurst. And then Lisa really proceeds to make her.
- [46:49]
A
So he dies at. How old?
- [46:51]
B
Nine years old.
- [46:52]
A
Oh, so for four years she was going through this hell.
- [46:55]
B
Yeah.
- [46:56]
A
And during that time, they're living off of the pastor and being a pastor and like, donations and stuff.
- [47:03]
B
So much money from other people. I mean, one of the things that's happened. So we had, you know, and Sabrina, Lisa's sister, you know, told us a lot about some of this fundraising that she'd done. So we've heard from so many people since our first episodes on this aired who had donated money to Lisa. So she was just getting money from everyone. She was given a free house in Alabama. That was one of the things we found was that this deed to this house had been given to them for $0. So they just got someone to give them a house to live in. And, you know, it's just people.
- [47:33]
A
Were you able to get ahold of the person that gave them the house? Like, are they, were they so wealthy they didn't care?
- [47:38]
B
We, we haven't actually. I, I had so many leads I could have flown followed on this one. I didn't actually track that down beyond, beyond finding them. But that would be interesting actually to check in with them and say, like, hey, what did, what was your. I mean, I, I assume it had something to do with, oh, this poor family that's had to move here for, for their child's. Child's illness. But I mean, she was raising, she was just, just, just getting money from it. Again, Carrie, you know, has a job here and there, but he didn't, I don't know that he ever took up being a pastor again after.
- [48:04]
A
Were they making enough money from the scamming everybody that they were like, just surviving or were they actually like living a nice life?
- [48:13]
B
No, they were living a nice life. I mean, I remember, you know, Michelle saying, and they're all saying like, oh, they got this really nice house in Birmingham that was like, you know, that was like a big upgrade from their last house. And they were, you know, they were taking like a lot of trips. And that was the other thing that she did a lot of was like they went on a make a wish trip to Disneyland and they did this whole thing with like, NASCAR where they got to meet all the drivers. And so they were still there. Yes. So they were doing a lot of stuff. And then the other thing that, you know, Lisa, right away, when Colin gets diagnosed, there happened to be a very high profile family who had a child who got this diagnosis about a month before Colin was diagnosed in February of 2008. And then Colin was diagnosed in March of 2008.
- [48:59]
A
So Victoria Jackson, who I remember from the, you know, makeup days of having the 1-800-infomercial and they she was already a rich woman before that.
- [49:11]
B
Yes. And then she, you know, she's married to Bill Guthy, who is one half of Guthy Ranker.
- [49:16]
A
Right.
- [49:17]
B
You know, who is also infomercial. I think they met actually, at an industry thing.
- [49:21]
A
Okay.
- [49:21]
B
She's written about. So they were both, you know, sort of the infomercial king and queen of California. So his brands, you know, proactive and when hair care and like, you know, it's like those proactive commercials are, like, embedded in my brain. It's a millennial. But so they're very wealthy families. So their daughter gets this diagnosis, and they, you know, right away start the Guthy Jackson Charitable foundation and, you know, funnel just, like, a ton of their personal wealth towards research. And they start, you know, this sort of patient community. And so Lisa connects with them really early on and is at their first. You know, every year they have several of these patient days where they bring all of the patients together so they can talk to the doctors and sort of have this community. So Lisa gets attached to this right away, and, you know, they end up filming Colin and the family for, like, some of their promotional materials. And so she just becomes very embedded in this foundation right away, and she's connected with them throughout the duration of Colin's illness. And then she starts volunteering for them after his death. And she eventually gets hired by the foundation after his death. And she was there. She eventually became their director of patient advocacy and was working there for 13 years, almost 13 years, until I called them in May.
- [50:43]
A
Until who called them?
- [50:44]
B
Until I called them.
- [50:45]
A
You called them. So. Oh, my God.
- [50:48]
B
They had no idea that she had this previous conviction, and they had no idea that this illness and death were highly, highly suspicious. And.
- [51:03]
A
And did their daughter. Was their daughter still living?
- [51:06]
B
Yes, their daughter's doing great. So they, you know, and one of the things when we talk to experts, if. Even if Colin really had nmo, which is very suspect because there was a whole bunch of stuff about the testing. You know, Michelle ended up talking to this doctor who said that she had no idea. You really didn't know what he had.
- [51:24]
A
Yeah.
- [51:25]
B
And had, you know, so much of it was very atypical for nmo, But. But the. Yeah. Ally Guthy, the Victorian Bill's daughter. Yeah. Is actually. She's. She's doing. She's doing great. And, you know, and they've done really. Guthy Jackson really has done a lot for, you know, moving the treatment forward, moving the research forward. And unfortunately, you know, they just got pulled in by Lisa and This is something that we're seeing happen a lot is that these perpetrators find these rare disease organizations. They embed themselves in there, you know, get, you know, get help from these foundations. This is really the furthest I've seen someone take it in terms of making their entire life about their dead child. And she built a career off of it. And I mean, that was, you know, she was getting opportunities to just talk about his death constantly, basically, because that was how, you know, she was positioning herself as this, like, heroic caregiver advocate.
- [52:25]
A
So this is a pretty cushy job.
- [52:28]
B
Yeah.
- [52:29]
A
And was she getting paid a very, like, a couple hundred thousand a year salary?
- [52:33]
B
You know, I don't know what her salary was, but it certainly, you know, she's still living in rural Georgia, so I'm sure it goes a lot longer than, you know, a lot further than out here. But, you know, it was certainly also just prestigious. And she got to position herself as an expert, you know, by the, you know, in the page about her on the foundation, which is obviously no longer there, but it said she'd educated tens of thousands of professionals about nmo and. And she was running the support groups and she was, you know, just very, very embedded in this organization, which is really. Which is really terrifying because the other thing that we've seen a lot of in these cases is that perpetrators will find each other. And when you have a disease like this, unfortunately, something like a rare autoimmune condition that can have this sort of variety of symptoms and it's not that well understood, and there's only, like, you know, you have to go to these sort of specialists is just ripe for exploitation Right. By these perpetrators. And so they do find these, you know, rare conditions. And so it's really scary that Lisa got herself so embedded.
- [53:40]
A
When you say they find each other, you're meaning two Munchausen's moms will find each other.
- [53:44]
B
Yeah. So they.
- [53:45]
A
And then do they ever admit, like, I'm a munch, like. Or do they just play along, like, what is it?
- [53:52]
B
I think they keep.
- [53:53]
A
Is it like, when pedophiles get together?
- [53:55]
B
Yeah, I think it's similar. And it's, you know, it's something that I've just have noticed. And what was interesting in this case in particular was that way back during the first conviction, which is a very different time on the Internet, you know, Lisa was on the message boards of. This is now defunct, but it's been around for a long time of this Mothers Against Munchausen allegations, which was started by someone who Was, you know, investigated for Munchausen and is very much like known as a sort of like perpetrator centric.
- [54:25]
A
Wait, someone who was found guilty of Munchausen started the Munchausen?
- [54:30]
B
You know, I'd have to, I'd have to look back at that case in specific, but that was what it came from, like a high profile investigation. Someone who was like, had a high profile investigation who I think whose child died. But it was also message board where a whole bunch of people are coming saying they've been falsely accused of Munchausen. Falsely accused.
- [54:44]
A
Okay.
- [54:45]
B
Right.
- [54:45]
A
Well, that's the, like the documentary some.
- [54:49]
B
Saving Maya Take care of Maya. Well, you know, I did my whole third season on that and I do not think that was a false accusation at all.
- [54:57]
A
You don't think it was?
- [54:58]
B
No.
- [54:58]
A
You do think she was sick?
- [55:01]
B
Do I think that? I, I think abuse was happening? Yeah. Oh no.
- [55:04]
A
You do think it was abusive?
- [55:06]
B
Yeah.
- [55:06]
A
Because they did win their civil trial.
- [55:08]
B
Yeah. I mean that is, that, that's going to appeal. Okay. But yeah, I mean that's a, that's like such a whole other rabbit hole. But I mean I, I read, you know, thousands and thousands of the court documents in that case.
- [55:21]
A
Yeah, I thought I talked a little bit about that. Maybe it was with you or I listened to yours, for those that don't know, is a huge documentary and it was about a woman who, you know, was saying her daughter was sick and she was being accused of Munchausens. And then the, the mother ended her own life and then the family went after all the doctors to say you falsely accused her. And I thought what a dangerous situation this is because it's like, see something, say something. In any case, see something, say something. But if you see something, say something, it looks shady. Well then you know you're a racist or a Karen or both. And then if you do this, you could lose your medical license. But then if you don't do something, you're a bad doctor and you're not following the, the oath of keeping people healthy.
- [56:13]
B
Yeah, well. And, and you know, in, in that case. Right. There was actually a really interesting sort of talking about this where you see, you know, perpetrators kind of finding each other online or finding these resources to, to pull off what they're pulling off. And so that diagnosis of crps, the, the condition that she claimed that Maya Kowalski had, she had. You know, Maya had been evaluated by three world class hospitals that gave her the diagnosis of conversion disorder, which is when you are having physical symptoms, but it's because of a psychological issue. It doesn't mean you're faking it or it's all in your head or whatever, but it's a real thing. But they were, you know, nobody gave her that diagnosis of crps. And then, you know, Biata Kowalski found, you know, a patient of hers mentioned that something about CRPs. And then, you know, Beata Kowalski went and found this online group and like, message with another parent and she said, oh, I think my daughter has CRPs. And she goes, oh, okay, go to Dr. Kirkpatrick. He'll give you the diagnosis, basically. And then she goes as like ketamine, you know, strip mall doctor and gets this diagnosis. Right. So I mean, it's just incredibly suspect and like, you know. Yeah, we've just seen a lot of that where. Yeah. Where perpetrators are. Yeah. I mean, in that case, just to sort of close the loop on that quickly, because that is one that I continue to talk about. You know, there was, I mean, there was strong evidence of abuse. You had another situation where the, you know, mom was blogging, Right. She kept this blog in Maya's voice, which I have read. And it was, you know, again, it's constant talk of death for something that's not a terminal illness. She was taking her to Mexico to have this ketamine coma procedure where there was a 50, 50% chance of death. Just I cannot, I cannot imagine. You know. And then when they wouldn't. When she took her to Johns Hopkins and they wouldn't give her the. This massive dose of ketamine that she was requesting, she said, well, then I'll just take her home and put her in hospice care so she can finally die. And how people sort of looked at these facts and that daughter lived.
- [58:13]
A
Right.
- [58:13]
B
Yeah, yeah, my Kowalski. Yeah, she's.
- [58:15]
A
And she was part of the case to win $20 million or whatever. 200 million.
- [58:19]
B
200. 220 was the final verdict. Got down to 206. But I think that that is very much a TBD situation. But because that's all still kind of playing out. And I think, like, what people. What I hope people will recognize is that that case has, number one, opened the door for similar lawsuits, which there are a couple of.
- [58:39]
A
And of people being claiming to be falsely accused of Munchausen.
- [58:43]
B
Okay. And, and like, the point of it, the point of that movement is to overturn protections for mandatory reporters that people, you know on this sort of like extreme parents rights and just don't, I believe, don't think that the state has any business intervening in child abuse cases. And, you know, right now you're supposed to be protected as a mandatory reporter, right. So that you report a reasonable suspicion of abuse. Right. Because you don't, you know. Right. And then they do an investigation to determine whether. And then a judge has to sign off on it. So it's being characterized as like, oh, these doctors are just taking children away. Like, doctors don't have any authority to do that. Like, they're not that powerful. And I think, like, you know, this big sort of anti science, anti medicine backlash that we're in is, Is kind of affecting all of this as well. But, yeah, I mean, I, I think how that case plays out is gonna have a big impact on, on how safe children are. And it, it's, it's. It already has. You know, it's already creating this chilling effect. And I think, you know, we see in this case, right, where like, so Michelle, you know, you know, the daughter. Michelle, the daughter, you know, who's now in her 30s, ended up calling Dr. Jane Ness, who treated her brother, and just expressing to her that she had been really haunted by, you know, these questions around her brother's death. And that doctor said that she wasn't sure what Colin really had and that she had suspected abuse. That all of these things that I was reading about, the polymicrobial sepsis infections and the, and all the gastrointestinal, all the stuff that didn't fit and the. Just that he wasn't responding to any of these treatments and that she knew about the previous conviction and that they had talked about this in the hospital and somehow they didn't report and the child died. And I. It's such a. It's such a tragic story. And the worst part is that Lisa now lives with her middle daughter and.
- [60:43]
A
Her two children, with the original abused child and her two children.
- [60:50]
B
So she.
- [60:51]
A
By your call, she was let go at the Victoria Jackson charity.
- [60:55]
B
Yes. So I, you know, as I was. As soon as I had kind of wrapped up my investigation, you know, and I was obviously also reaching out to them for comment, but, you know, obviously wanted to tell them before the podcast came out. And, and so I, I've. I've had some, I've had some back and forth with them. They did fire her. I'm a little concerned at this time about the lack of response beyond that because we very quickly heard, you know, very quickly, once the show came out, started hearing from patients and caregivers in that community that no one had told them about Lisa being fired or why she was fired. And so she Was communicating. She was continuing to. You know, this is. Back in June, after the first episodes aired, Lisa was continuing to contact patients that she'd known through Guthie Jackson and telling them that she was on leave because her husband had cancer.
- [61:49]
A
Oh, God. You know, so the husband is. The husband and her both still are. They. They're the girlfriends. All living with the original sick daughter and now her two children.
- [62:02]
B
Yeah.
- [62:03]
A
In Georgia.
- [62:04]
B
Yeah. And they've moved. They left to go and be closer to a sick relative, which is. And obviously alarming.
- [62:13]
A
How have they responded to you knowing that you're doing this hardcore investigation?
- [62:17]
B
Yeah, so actually we. And I'm covering this with. I am also covering this with a local television journalist in Georgia whose coverage is going to come out here in the next few weeks. So we went to Georgia in May to film some stuff with the family. And then we actually, this journalist and I, Meredith. Meredith Anderson, we actually drove out and knocked on Lisa's door, and this was. So she did not agree to be interviewed, but we talked to her on her doorstep for about 45 minutes. And, you know, I really wanted to. Obviously, I'm always interested to hear what people will say, but I also wanted to give her a chance if there was something that I was missing. I never. Obviously, this one, you know, from the outside, you sort of think, well, yeah, this sort of so obviously looks like abuse. But you never, like. I never assume, you know, and. And I always want to do just like every. I never want to miss anything. I don't. I don't. I want to tell the most complete story I can. And so we, you know, spoke to her at length, and it was fascinating. Carrie, at some point came out the husband. Yes. So she. As soon as we sort of told her that we were there not just to talk about Angelyn, but also because there were questions about Colin. She had texted her husband and he came in.
- [63:38]
A
Who's Angelyn?
- [63:39]
B
Angelyn's the daughter.
- [63:40]
A
Oh, the daughter.
- [63:41]
B
Okay. Right. Because, you know, when we. When we sort of first approached her, and she knew. She knew who I was, because Michelle had actually told her months before that she was doing this podcast and kind of gave her a heads up. And so.
- [63:52]
A
And what does she say to her daughter? Like, what the fuck you. I mean, what are you doing after? Why would you do that to me?
- [63:58]
B
I mean, does she say that Tried so hard to make her feel guilty and you're tearing our family apart and I'm gonna lose my job and this and that, and just blaming her for, you know, blaming her for everything and just saying, like, oh, I've worked so hard to overcome my past actions. And I mean, just, you know, again, that's just minimizing and justifying.
- [64:17]
A
Never admitting that any. That she did anything nefarious with Colin.
- [64:22]
B
No, I mean, not. Not thus far. And it was very interesting to talk to her because, you know, I had spent probably months to sort of years at that point kind of going through all of this, going through her blog, going through all of these sources and everything else. And she said, well, his doctors had my back 100%. And I told her, well, actually we spoke to Dr. Janess or we heard this conversation with Dr. Janess. And she said she didn't know what he had. And then she said, well, what about. What about the positive tests that came back? And it was this whole thing with like, this was kind of my. And not to be. Not to be glib about it, but this was kind of my, you know, Elle woods moment where she's like, yeah, the ammonium thyglocalate in perm, you know, because she was. She. There was this like wild goose chase that I went on trying to track down this, like, you know, she said, like months after Colin's death, oh, we just got these test results back and actually he did have NMO because he had had negative tests for it before and that's a whole complicated thing. But, you know, so she said, well, what about this positive test? And I was like, oh, well, the one that was taken in the blood draw right before he passed away. And she said, yeah. And I was like, well, and you posted about that eight months later. And actually that's. There's no window where you would get test results in that, you know, in that, in that way. And, and like that, you know, that was taken for a study so they don't give individual diagnostics. And she's like, kind of tried to argue and then just let it go. But yeah, I mean, it was, you know, and she said at one point this really kind of stuck with me. She said, you know, towards the end and, and at one point she said, oh, well, what would it take to put the questions about Colin's death to rest? And she goes, what do you want his MRIs? You want his medical records? And I was like. I said, yeah. I said, I mean, that would. Yeah, that, that would. That would do it. And I said, yeah, but, you know, I'd need a complete medical record and a HIPAA release so that I could speak to his doctors. And then her husband said, oh, well, you'd never have time to read all of that. And I was like, I would. And, you know, she said it, and she was like, well, we're just. We're not going to do that. And I. And. And she said at one point to me, she said, I know how this looks, but he really was sick. I just said, you're right. That is. That is how it looks. You know, sort of implying that she had something to do with this death. And. And I said, if there's something else that you have that you think I should see, if there's something else you think I should know, if there's someone you want me to talk to that makes it look otherwise, like, now's the time.
- [66:56]
A
Wow. Well, thank you so much for coming. This is juicy. And thank you for doing what you do. I feel like, you know, the first time the world really even thought or knew about this was when we saw it in the movie the Sixth Sense, right.
- [67:12]
B
Which was like, tamina bargain ghost 5.
- [67:14]
A
Years ago or so, and that the mom was making her sick. And, you know, so this is just a fascinating subject. And so it's season six of Nobody Should Believe Me. So, great. Where can everyone follow you and everything?
- [67:32]
B
Yeah. So the only social media I'm really on anymore is Instagram, and you can find the show Nobody Should Believe Me wherever you listen to podcasts and the.
- [67:44]
A
Is the whole season out?
- [67:45]
B
Yeah, so the whole season's out. But because there is so much happening, like, we are staying on it, and we're still kind of releasing new episodes and matches, and we're really hoping that there will be a criminal investigation into this death because that's what needs to happen. That's the only way that, you know, that we'll ever sort of really know the truth.
- [68:03]
A
And how does that initial call happen? When you call the foundation, like, hi, who do I speak to about one of the people working for you as Munchausens and is a convicted child abuser?
- [68:13]
B
Yeah, I mean, hold, please. It was.
- [68:15]
A
How does that even begin?
- [68:18]
B
It's an uncomfortable phone call to make. I eventually got a number for Victoria's office and spoke to one of her representatives and sort of said, you know, I'm calling about a really. I'm calling about a really serious situation with one of your employees. Like, are you the person to tell this information to? And, you know, I. I just sort of told her the high level. You know, there was this previous conviction. Here was what it was for. And also, there's a lot of questions about Collins and death and et cetera. And so, so, you know, they did. In terms of Lisa's employment there, you know, they, they obviously they, they did take that seriously, you know, and I've just, I followed up with them with questions about, you know, I think, like, what's unclear to me at this point is if there is, you know, sort of some deeper soul searching in that organization about what it means to have. Because, you know, they didn't. They didn't do. It appears they did not do a background check on her. So obviously that's not great and you should. But honestly, it's a forgivable error because they'd known her as a parent, they knew her as a volunteer. This was someone that they trusted. This was someone that they'd had good experiences with. We all do that. I mean, you know, it's like, who, who has it right? It's like, are we all thoroughly investigating? No, it's like that's just not how anybody looks at things. But I think the, the thing at this point is if you've had someone like this involved in your organization for that many years, they've had an impact on the organization. And it's also very traumatizing for this community who cared about this little boy who have been going to Lisa as their advocate, who've been sharing their medical records with her, who've, you know, really relied on this person to then find out that she's done all these things.
- [70:14]
A
Wow.
- [70:15]
B
You know, is just. Is just horrible. And so I think it kind of. Yeah. And I just think it's like anybody who's working for this kind of rare disease organizations, unfortunately, they are such a target for these perpetrators that you have to be really careful. And it's not what anybody wants to do. Nobody wants to look at the world. And I don't wish the lens I have on the world on anyone, because you don't want to suspect that people would do this. And of course, most, most parents who say they have a sick child, they do have a sick child, but most parents would never do this. This is an aberration, but it's not so rare that you don't need to watch out for it.
- [70:56]
A
Wow. Well, thank you so much. And everyone follow. Nobody should believe me. And Andrea Dunlop and thank you. Thank you. And of course, everything for me is@heather McDonald.net My live show, number 14th in Vegas, as well as following juicy scoop and joining me on Patreon. You do that@heathermcd.net thank you.
- [71:38]
B
Sam.