Behind the Drama: The Real Secrets of Real Housewives with Jack Tarantino

Summary

Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald

Episode: Behind the Drama: The Real Secrets of Real Housewives with Jack Tarantino

Release Date: December 4, 2025
Guest: Jack Tarantino (Reality TV Producer, Former Real Housewives Showrunner)

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Overview

In this insightful, laughter-filled episode, Heather McDonald invites Jack Tarantino to spill the real tea behind the scenes of The Real Housewives franchise. As a former showrunner for Real Housewives of Orange County (RHOC)—and a seasoned producer in the reality TV world—Jack shares candid stories, inside secrets, and reflections on casting, production, housewife psychology, famous scandals, and why the Housewives have become an enduring cultural phenomenon. The episode unpacks casting controversies, relationships (on and off screen), how fame changes Housewives, and what keeps the franchise compelling—all with the signature wit and honesty of Juicy Scoop.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Heather & Jack’s Shared History in TV

[03:03–05:38]

• Heather and Jack reminisce about working together on TLC’s All About Sex after Chelsea Lately ended. Both fondly recall the show’s experimentation and lament its short-lived run.
• Jack shares early career experiences with Brian Graden (who helped launch South Park) and producing for MTV (Biorhythm), before delving into reality TV.

2. Breaking into Reality TV & Joining The Housewives

[06:04–08:20]

• Jack describes getting scouted for RHOC after producing Baldwin Hills (described as "The Hills but for Black kids").
• He explains how his upbringing in San Diego, familiar with the “girls, hair, nails, makeup, drama,” made him a natural fit for OC’s vibe.
• Quote: “You know when you just know...this is my show.” —Jack ([07:42])

3. The Showrunner’s Role & Show Production Realities

[09:21–11:38]

• The whole production team relocates each season, living in local apartment complexes, with a “war room” as the central production hub.
• Jack debunks scripting myths: “People always ask if these shows are scripted. I wish it was scripted!” ([10:46])
• On Taglines: Taglines are scripted and heavily vetted by producers and the network, but Housewives themselves are often “not actors,” so delivery must be coached.

4. Managing Housewives, “No Off-Camera Dinners!” & Producer Psychology

[12:04–14:39]

• Producers strongly discourage off-camera socializing to avoid missing key drama and storylines.
• Being a producer is part-psychologist, adapting to Housewives’ personalities, ensuring they share enough on camera, sometimes acting as emotional support—or target.
• Quote: “You wear many hats as a showrunner. You’re part psychologist.” —Jack ([13:03])

5. Casting Decisions: The Heather Dubrow Backstory

[18:12–19:57]

• Jack reveals that Heather Dubrow and Terry Dubrow were discovered and considered for RHOC a full season before she debuted, but the network passed (possibly wanting another “blonde” and wary of actors).
• He notes the subtle bias in early casting for “the aesthetic.”

6. Lesbian Representation, Church Culture, and Housewife Dynamics

[20:02–22:05]

• Fernanda, the first lesbian Housewife, and the Tamra make-out storyline are discussed.
• The rise and fall of friendships is explored—namely how Alexis Bellino and Gretchen Rossi were initially tight but are now distant, with Tamra and Alexis (unexpectedly) now friends due to Shannon drama.

7. Negotiations, The Price of Fame, and BravoCon

[31:10–29:26]

• Early Housewives made very little (“not life changing money”), sinking more into their appearances than they earned. Over time, Bravo made the “franchise bigger than any one Housewife.”
• Vicki’s eventual firing signaled no one was safe, shifting power toward Bravo.
• On BravoCon: Jack and Heather discuss how BravoCon made Housewives true celebrities:
  • “It makes it harder to produce the women because they become so savvy...they’re being treated like when the Beatles came out.” —Jack ([29:26])
• Example: “Vicki is the mayor in Puerto Vallarta!” (being mobbed by fans)

8. The Evolution of Housewives & The Pressures to Perform

[35:00–36:27]

• Housewives now face immense pressures to maintain their looks (fillers, extensions) and homes to avoid fan criticism.
• The 2008 market crash, evictions, and the show’s aspirational lifestyle are discussed, including the infamous Lynn Curtin eviction scene.

9. Iconic Scandals: Brooks’ Fake Cancer

[38:27–45:53]

• The Brooks Ayers cancer fakery is called out as one of the franchise’s most notorious moments.
• Heather and Jack ponder if Vicki truly believed him. Jack thinks, “she was bamboozled...her love tank was full.” ([45:27])
• Heather discusses her fascination with grifters and how common “lying about cancer” is in con stories.

10. Housewife Marriages, Curses & The Toll of Fame

[50:51–56:09]

• Jack posits that half the divorces on Housewives might not have happened without the pressures and temptations of filming.
• Kyle Richards & Mauricio’s split is highlighted as proof that even “relationship goals” couples aren’t immune.
• The infamous “Housewife Curse”: “There’s not very many Housewife marriages still intact...most aren’t even in relationships!” —Jack ([51:24])
• The expense and feedback loop of keeping up appearances ("I had no upper lip—now I get fillers.") and “aspirational living” pressure.

11. When Housewives Go Too Far: Real-Life Crimes

[53:47–60:57]

• Jen Shah’s telemarketing scam (RHOSLC) is analyzed; Jack predicts she may return to TV despite Bravo’s protestations, drawing comparisons to Teresa Giudice and Karen Huger.
• Dr. Wendy Osefo and “Happy Eddie” (RHOP) face fraud charges and Jack foresees jail time, speculating they might try to blame the pressures of fame or “keeping up appearances” for their crimes.

12. What Makes a Good Housewife—and a Good Show

[58:26–60:57]

• Housewives formula then vs. now: Jack laments the shift from “guilty pleasure escapism” balancing motherhood, business, and comedy/drama, to “constant drama and screaming.” ([57:44])
• Heather notes, “Now I think you watch it and it gives you anxiety.”
• Jack: “When all you see is drama, it’s like you’ve eaten one too many chocolates and you feel sick.” ([57:44])

13. Famous Moments & Housewives’ Choices

[71:37–74:47]

• Jack reveals insight into the Tamra and Simon limo fight (“you’re a fucking asshole—I want a divorce!”), widely regarded as an iconic scene:
  • “My whole being was like, we gotta follow this because something’s going to go down in the limo.” —Jack ([72:18])
• Sexy, cringey scenes (bathtub, paint) almost always originate from the housewives themselves, not from producer prompting.
• The rise of elaborate themed parties, costumes, and the sometimes forced feel of newer episodes.

14. Housewife Husband Dynamics and “Joe Gorga: Bonus Wife”

[70:24–71:37]

• Most husbands are uneasy with their wives’ fame or being on camera; the few who embrace their supporting role (Donn Gunvalson, Slade Smiley) are standouts.
• Joe Gorga is “basically a housewife”—Bravo keeps Melissa for the couple dynamic.

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

On casting “types”:

• “The network at the time wanted someone with the aesthetic because Heather [Dubrow] was a brunette and all the girls were blondes.” —Jack ([18:32])

On producing and psychology:

• “You wear many hats as a showrunner. You’re part psychologist.” —Jack ([13:03])

On off-camera drama:

• “We do encourage them not to see each other off-camera...but they’re real people.” —Jack ([12:53])
• “Part of the reason we have to live down there is so we know when stuff is happening off camera.” —Jack ([13:03])

On the franchise’s evolution:

• “Bravo made the franchise bigger than any one Housewife. Vicki’s firing sent a shockwave: no one is safe.” ([32:53])

On the Brooks/cancer scandal:

• “I've gone back and forth...after learning about grifters, sometimes I’m more sympathetic to Vicki.” —Heather ([45:58])
• “I really do think she was bamboozled. Her love tank was full from him.” —Jack ([45:53])

On audience shift:

• “Now I think you watch it and it gives you anxiety...it used to be comfort, like watching a Hallmark movie.” —Heather ([57:17])
• “All you see is drama, drama, drama...like you’ve eaten too many chocolates.” —Jack ([57:44])

On Housewives finances & crime:

• “Early seasons, girls spent more than they earned.” —Jack ([31:44])
• “Most of these crimes come from trying to live up to the Housewives lifestyle.” —Heather ([64:02])

On the “Housewife curse”:

• “Once Kyle and Mauricio broke up, even the couple to aspire to is gone...” —Jack ([51:24])

On Househusbands:

• "Some of these husbands come on and they can't give their wife the spotlight. With the exception of Joe Gorga—we all love him!" —Jack ([71:02])

On cringeworthy scenes:

• “If Eddie was gay, A, he would be gay, and B, do you really think Tamra would be married to a guy who was gay?” —Jack ([74:23])

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Notable Timestamps

• [03:03] – Heather introduces Jack; reminiscing about “All About Sex”
• [06:04] – Jack explains how he got “the call” about Housewives
• [09:50] – Production logistics: whole team relocates to OC
• [10:46] – Are Housewives shows scripted?
• [13:03] – Producer psychology and managing cast drama
• [18:12] – Discovering Heather Dubrow: why her casting was delayed
• [22:05] – Fresh housewife relationships, competition, and evolving groups
• [29:26] – BravoCon, newfound Housewife celebrity
• [32:53] – Cast negotiation power dynamics, “no one is indispensable”
• [35:00] – The cost (and compulsion) to keep up appearances
• [38:27] – Brooks Ayers’ cancer scandal discussion
• [45:27] – Was Vicki complicit? Jack’s take
• [51:24] – Housewife curse and marriages that survive
• [57:17] – The anxiety of modern Housewives viewing
• [58:26] – What makes a good Housewife show
• [60:00] – Jen Shah’s scandal and potential TV future
• [63:03] – Wendy and Eddie’s legal woes, the impact of public pressure
• [66:08] – Whitney & Justin’s marriage on the rocks
• [71:37] – Tamra and Simon’s iconic limo fight—why Jack “followed his gut”
• [74:23] – “Is Eddie gay?” Jack’s definitive answer
• [76:00] – Do producers convince housewives to do cringey scenes?
• [78:19] – Jack’s TikTok Tarantinophiles for more behind-the-scenes

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Final Thoughts & Where to Find More

• Jack’s new TikTok “Tarantinophiles” brings ongoing reality TV insights from a rare exec-and-field-producer hybrid perspective: “I get asked about Housewives all the time. People are just really curious how these shows work.” ([78:19])
• Heather and Jack tease returning for another scoop-heavy episode, especially about Real Housewives of Beverly Hills.

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This episode is a must-listen for any Bravo fan, blending juicy “how the sausage gets made” revelations, laughter, and sharp analysis of what keeps Housewives iconic—and what threatens to derail the franchise as it enters its next era.

Transcript

[Monet X Change]

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[Heather McDonald]

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[Jack Tarantino]

Listen in. Listen up. Woo. Woo.

[Heather McDonald]

Hannah McDonald, juicy scoop. Hello and welcome to Juicy Scoop. I'm very excited for our guest because I know so many times we've talked about what really goes on behind the scenes and casting of reality shows, especially our favorite housewives. And we have a man that knows it all, Jack Tarantino. Welcome to Juicy Scoop for your first time. But we know each other.

[Jack Tarantino]

We do know each other. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.

[Heather McDonald]

When I came across your tiktoks kind of spilling the beans, I liked your style. I was like, why does this guy look familiar? But I reached out to you to have you on here because you have produced Housewives and many other things that we talk about here on Juicy Scoop. And then you're like, we work together. I'm like, that's why you look familiar. Because we did a show that I did right after Chelsea Lately ended. But before I started the podcast called All About Sex.

[Jack Tarantino]

Yes. On tlc, we did six episodes, which was. It was literally one of my most favorite shows to work on at tlc.

[Heather McDonald]

Really? That's so sad and nice at the same time.

[Jack Tarantino]

It was such a big swing for the network and I really, really tried to get it to a season two.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Jack Tarantino]

And unfortunately it didn't go that way. So I'm sorry. But you were great. You were fantastic.

[Heather McDonald]

I mean, yes, I was very excited for it and it was fun because it was myself, Margaret Cho. There was four of us. And it was talking about sex and relationships, which really was all the thoughts I had that then I parlayed later on after didn't go Anywhere is when I started the podcast. So you know what they say. I don't know if you know what they say, but they say life's rejection is God's protection. Not that I need to be protected from the show, but sometimes, you know, one door closes, one door opens kind of a thing. But I was excited and I thought, oh my God, this is going to go for like six years or something. And I'll have this another opportunity just to talk about things on camera like I was doing on Chelsea.

[Jack Tarantino]

But you know, it's funny cause it was such a favorite amongst the execs there at tlc. So when the numbers started coming in and you know, it's such A hard time slot. You were on at 11 o' clock or 11:30 on a Saturday night.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah, they thought like, all these women would just be like, running to go watch it. And I was like. And I thought if this was gonna survive, I was like, first of all, it can't be just sexual. It could be just lots of juicy. Exactly what I'm doing now type of topics and things. But it could go a long way. But, yeah, you never know.

[Jack Tarantino]

I had so many ideas to sort of take it out of the studio and go out on the street or go around the country and have you guys meet the women where they were, meet the men where they were. Because it's such a universal but yet taboo topic.

[Heather McDonald]

Right.

[Jack Tarantino]

So. So I don't know, maybe we should revisit something like that in the future.

[Heather McDonald]

I know it was a good time. And anyway. But.

Prior to that would have been when you worked on Real Housewives of OC Season five and season six.

[Jack Tarantino]

Yes.

[Heather McDonald]

And tell me a little bit about your background and how you even got in this business.

[Jack Tarantino]

Yeah. So I moved to LA out of college and my first job was on the Dating Game.

[Heather McDonald]

Oh, my God.

[Jack Tarantino]

And my boss was a man by the name of Brian Graden, who went on to run mtv. Oh. And my first job was making all these half inch tapes to send to all the community. And I was like, what is this show? It was South Park. The very first episode of South Park. Brian helped get that show sold. And so when Brian went over to mtv, you know, he took a group of us over there. And so I cut my teeth at mtv. I worked at a bunch of shops.

[Heather McDonald]

What years were you there?

[Jack Tarantino]

I was there from like 96 to like 2002.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay. So then that's when I was doing Lyricist Lounge on MTV with Tracee Ellis Ross.

[Jack Tarantino]

Yes, I remember that show. My big show I did, there was a show called Biorhythm. Yeah, yeah, those were great. I mean, talk about getting your feet wet. It was amazing.

[Heather McDonald]

It was fun.

[Jack Tarantino]

Yeah, it was fun. And then from there I went on and I started doing shows like Baldwin Hills and. Which caught the eye of Evolution Media. And that's how I got the meeting for Housewives.

[Heather McDonald]

And that was a reality show about Baldwin Hills.

[Jack Tarantino]

It was the Hills, but for black kids.

[Heather McDonald]

Right. Which was sort of a community in LA that's sort of upper class, just outside of la. Yeah. Oh, I love that.

[Jack Tarantino]

Yeah, yeah. And so from there I was actually in Paris and I got a call from my agent and I said, yeah, I'll be Home in a couple days. They said, well, Real Housewives of Orange County's looking for a showrunner. And I knew instantly. Like, you know when you just know. Yeah. I was like, this is my show. Because I grew up in San Diego, and I hung out with girls like that my whole life. I mean, I just loved it. The hair, the nails, the makeup, the drama around the guy. I mean, it was the whole nine yards. And so when I went in and met with Evolution Media, who produced the show, we hit it off right away. And then I went to the network, and then the rest is history.

[Heather McDonald]

You know, what is so funny about this side of the business, which the listeners don't know, but, like, when talent or a production company is looking for a showrunner, even when I've had deals and stuff where I've met with the showrunner. And I remember this with Chelsea, too, when she got her show, she's like, I met with all these guys for Chelsea lately to be showrunners, and only one who was a woman even looked me up on YouTube, even knew anything about me. And I'm like, wouldn't you want somebody to work on the show that either knew about you, was excited, or was a fan of it already?

[Jack Tarantino]

Absolutely.

[Heather McDonald]

Which is what you were like, that's what it should be. And it's so weird sometimes when they would put somebody on a show that, like, it's exactly like, I'm not gonna be running a show on espn. Like, I don't know about sports. I don't care. Like, why would I even try out for that job? But sometimes that happens, and it's, like, weird that you would. They don't think how logical that. How illogical that is.

[Jack Tarantino]

Well, it's so funny, too, because there's men's programming and then there's women's programming.

[Heather McDonald]

Right?

[Jack Tarantino]

And I've always been a big fan of women's programming. And so when I started coming up, you know, in my career, I only focused on the women's programming and things that really lit me up. Because these shows, you can have no life. When you produce a show like the Housewives, it's a year of your life. And I did it three years in a row.

[Heather McDonald]

So when they say, you're gonna work on this show, so does all the camera people. Does everybody have to find a residence in the OC because you are filming there? Like, so if you lived in West Hollywood, you'd have to find another place to live? Or how does that work?

[Jack Tarantino]

So the production company puts us up. We all move into an apartment complex. And we all get apartments in that complex.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay.

[Jack Tarantino]

And then we also have an apartment that we turn into our production office, where my war room is.

[Heather McDonald]

Oh, wow.

[Jack Tarantino]

And what I mean by that is that's where we plan all the scenes. That's where we. It's a small group of us. I have boards up, I have cards up. Like, you know, everyone says, oh. The number one question I get as a showrunner has always been, these shows are scripted. And you know this from being in scripted world.

I wish it was scripted.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Jack Tarantino]

And here's an example of why it's not scripted. So, you know, the taglines for each of the housewives, those are scripted lines that we spend weeks getting approvals from the network.

[Heather McDonald]

And let me ask a question.

[Jack Tarantino]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

It's my understanding that, like, let's say, okay, you guys are finishing. Come up with some taglines. So the producers and you will write, like, maybe five, and then you give it to the women, and then they choose one or how does it work?

[Jack Tarantino]

No, we do it. So we come up with five. We give it to the network. They tell us the ones they like, then we get the women to record them. And some of the women don't know how to do it. You know what I mean? Some of them will just read the line. So we have to, like, rehearse with them.

[Heather McDonald]

Right. Because they're not actors.

[Jack Tarantino]

They're not actors. And so that's my point. Like, these shows, you can't script this stuff.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Jack Tarantino]

It would be so much easier if these shows were scripted. Right. Because we knew we would know what we were getting. We would get in and we would get out. We would go and spend. You know, for any of these shows, I would go live in Orange county or Miami for, like, five, six months at a time because you have to ingrain yourself with these people.

[Heather McDonald]

And then how do you decide, Like. Cause I remember.

So Heather Dubrow was on it, and I became friendly with Tamara, and then Heather Dubrow, and Heather Burrough was having her groundbreaking party for that house, and she invited us. And then that night, my husband and I went over to Shannon Beador's and we were gonna go have dinner at Mastro's.

[Jack Tarantino]

And.

[Heather McDonald]

And I remember, like, Shannon and Vicky saying that some producer was texting them, like, pissed that we were going to dinner when cameras were down. So how does that work? Because it's like.

You know, you can't. This isn't the Truman Show. So they've gotta have some time to do things on their own. And do you almost prefer them not to socialize during the months that you're filming?

[Jack Tarantino]

Yes, absolutely. I've always said it's the best part time job out there, right. Cause they work like three days a week. But we do encourage them not to see each other off camera. But they're real people, right? So you can't guard against that. But I think part of the reason we also have to go live down there and we're there. I mean, I was there seven days a week and I'm on the phone with them every day, all day, or I'm shooting scenes with them, or I'm doing interviews with them. So we have to ingrain ourself into their lives because that's the only way we're gonna know things. Like they went to dinner and they didn't tell cameras that they were going to dinner, you know, because what happens is then they'll start talking about story that then we're gonna have to. And you know, I never did recreations. We were in the moment, following the stories as they were coming along. So we would always. I would always discourage them from that. And in order to get to that point where they would listen to me, I had to be a very strong person with them because, you know, you wear many hats as a showrunner. You're part psychologist.

[Heather McDonald]

I was gonna say there's a lot of psychology.

[Jack Tarantino]

Oh, my God, Heather. There's so much psychology.

[Heather McDonald]

We are looking. Wait, finish what you're gonna say and then I'm gonna ask my next question.

[Jack Tarantino]

Well, yeah, you just. I would always discourage them because you're on a show, right? And you want the show to be successful. So this is your job, you're being paid for this. So it's not a lot to say, hey, Vicki Shannon, don't go to dinner without cameras there.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Jack Tarantino]

You know what I mean?

[Heather McDonald]

And so like I said about the psychology, when you're interviewing people to be segment producers or producers, do you. Is that a bonus that they studied psychology or that that is a true interest of theirs? Because in the psychology are some producers, part of their job is, I think, to manipulate and convince someone to share more. Right. If they're holding back, you'd say, emily, share about your struggles with your son. Because think of how this might help other women, which it has. But then at the same time, she got heavily criticized for sharing her son's struggles, like, you know, with the HIPAA laws. And he's a child. And I see both sides. I see both sides. I think it's a really Difficult thing. And that's why I think there's certain mothers on this show that their now relationship with their adult child is extremely strained because the child didn't enjoy having their life shared on tv.

[Jack Tarantino]

Yeah, we can talk to Brianna, Vicky's daughter, about that. I mean, that poor girl has ptsd. But, you know, going back to your question about hiring field producers for this show, it was a very tedious process because to your point, these people were gonna be spending months on end with these women. So it was part experience, but it was also part intuitive, like who understood the psychology. Because that is a big. These are like, you know, social experiments, if you will, In. In. In human behavior. And, you know, these women don't always act grown up, especially when you add a little bit of alcohol to some of this stuff. You have to have somebody who has very thick skin who's going to be able to take Vicki yelling at you, you know, and humiliating you in front of a restaurant full of people.

[Heather McDonald]

Now.

Why do they get mad at the producers and stuff like that? If they're just supposed to be like a fly on the wall, why would a housewife get mad at a segment producer?

[Jack Tarantino]

Because it's somebody they can take it out on. Right? So if, for example, if one of the women got into a confrontation and it didn't look good for them.

They would immediately throw it back on production and they would come find me and they would try to yell at me or yell at the team, and it just.

[Heather McDonald]

And would they ever try to say, please don't use that?

[Jack Tarantino]

Oh, yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

And then do they know that's just probably by saying that would maybe make you. If you might have cut it. I would think that the reverse psychology is not to say that and just, like, go to church and pray that you don't use it. Because I think by saying don't. Don't use it, it'll kill me. Would mean I would be like, well, then I better use it, because it's obviously gonna be a good reunion moment.

[Jack Tarantino]

I mean, the contracts that Bravo has them sign are like bibles. So they know everything. We can only put on tv, on camera what you give us. So that's another reason why when people say it's scripted, I can never have the blowback of that. So if I tried to go up to Tamara or Vicky or one of the. And say, I need you to go, that would never fly with them. Right. So when people say it's scripted or no, this is just the. I like to say that I would put them in A I would paint like a sandbox for them and then they go in and then they play in the sandbox.

[Heather McDonald]

Now, I mean, this was when you were working on Housewives. You have this. This is one of the seasons you worked on, right? You had Peggy, Tamara. Peggy was only on one season and you had told me that in looking at the casting that you guys had already discovered Heather Dubrow as a potential.

[Jack Tarantino]

Yeah, we interviewed Heather and Terry during season five and we loved her. We thought she was a breath of fresh air. The network, I think, was a little reticent at first because she was an actress and at that point Beverly Hills hadn't debuted yet and so they weren't really keen on having actors come in yet. But we really pushed for her. And the network at the time just felt like they wanted to go in a different direction. I think they wanted somebody that had more of the aesthetic because Heather was a brunette and all the girls were blondes. So Peggy fit that type.

[Heather McDonald]

They weren't ready for that DEI hire just yet.

[Monet X Change]

They weren't.

[Jack Tarantino]

I mean, we pushed and pushed and pushed because we just thought Heather was amazing and she lived that aspirational lifestyle for real. She wasn't like one of the fake ones like renting a house.

[Heather McDonald]

And she was down for it.

[Jack Tarantino]

She was down for it.

[Heather McDonald]

Uh huh.

[Jack Tarantino]

And you see her now, she's great.

[Heather McDonald]

Do you know if she reached out or someone had discovered her?

[Jack Tarantino]

No, it came through our casting. A casting director discovered her and brought her in and then we met with her and we fell in love with her and we put her on tape, her and Terry on tape. And we sent it to the network and they just, that first season they just weren't.

[Heather McDonald]

It's funny. Yeah, because you said they wanted all blondes, but who is this girl on the end? I don't remember her at all.

[Jack Tarantino]

Fernanda.

[Heather McDonald]

Oh, she was our first lesbian.

[Jack Tarantino]

Yes, the first lesbian. She was Tamra's trainer.

[Heather McDonald]

And remember they made out.

[Jack Tarantino]

Yes, they made out. But that was also the. I mean, listen, Tamara tried to make out with me in Cabo. I mean, I'm a gay man.

[Heather McDonald]

I mean, God bless her, she made out with Bronwyn. Yeah, she was really the, you know, the originator of it.

[Jack Tarantino]

Yeah, she was.

[Heather McDonald]

Now it's like half the cast is pretty. Half of the housewives are like have had some type of lesbian liaison storyline. Something.

[Jack Tarantino]

Absolutely, yeah. Oh yeah. Now it's. Now it's. I mean, look at Portia Williams.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Jack Tarantino]

I mean now she's got a full on girlfriend, full On, I mean, amazing. But yeah, season five was also the first season with Alexis.

[Heather McDonald]

Right.

[Jack Tarantino]

Who I have to say, like when she walked into the audition or the meeting, I should say I was like, oh God, this woman is gorgeous. But you know, she was married to her husband and we'll just leave it at that.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

And yeah, I mean they were fun. I mean it was very fun. The way, you know, that type of mega church, Christian.

Cultural movement that was kind of happening at the time in those 2000s I think was very representative of what was going on and then also really interesting to the people at home and hence where the Jesus jugs came.

[Jack Tarantino]

Jesus jugs, classic line.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Jack Tarantino]

I mean, you know, the other thing is her and Gretchen were really tight. You know, they were God fearing women and they were really good friends and it's interesting to see them now have drifted so far apart and I never would have guessed and it was never on my bingo card that Tamara and Alexis would become friends ever.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah. And why do you think they did?

[Jack Tarantino]

Um, cause I think it's because of Shannon. I really do. I just think that, you know, Tamra gets her feelings hurt and I think that's her way of acting out.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Jack Tarantino]

You know, because she couldn't stand Alexis for many years.

[Heather McDonald]

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And then when she was not on the show for a year or two, she didn't hear from her. And I think that built a lot of anger and resentment. And that's where the Tamra grudge comes, which people are like, why is that coming from? It's coming from that. And that's what I think is really hard. And I think that happens, especially with the women of OC is when they're friends, they're, you know, on the show and then they're friends and then one gets the boot. And they're like, well, I can't be friends with the person that got the boot anymore. Cause then it'll cause problems with me filming with these other women. And I mean, what would you suggest about that? I mean, I do think that's really a very hurtful thing. It's like being in high school where you didn't make the varsity cheerleading team and now your Best friend who's on it never talks to you again because you're not on the squad. And you're like, what? We shared everything together. We had sleepovers. Like, it never changes like that. Generation X women. We honestly. This just is representative of that. We are still the bitchy assholes that we were in 1988.

[Jack Tarantino]

That's why we love to watch these shows. I know.

[Heather McDonald]

I mean, seriously, it's not gonna be the same with whatever the younger housewives are. They'll have their own dynamic. But our Gen X dynamic of women.

Are great and funny, but also can be really mean. Bitchy slumber party witches, you know?

[Monet X Change]

Yeah.

[Jack Tarantino]

Really catty. Yeah. I would say that point about not talking to Tamra when she got, you know, on pause or whatever. But she did keep talking to Vicky so that Shannon did. So it doesn't really make sense. I think it was a way to be a little more like Shannon had the upper hand because she was asked back to the show. And Tamara at the time was the longest serving housewife. Listen, I spoke to Tamara and Vicky right after they both got let go. In fact, I developed a show with them and took it out anyway. It was a different story, but they were both heartbroken because their whole identity was wrapped up, as you can imagine.

[Heather McDonald]

I mean, like, any job when you've been on it that long and that it's then is wrapped up in fame too. And I also think the Bravo con that began and I think the first year was 20, 19 or 18. Was it 19? I don't. No, it would have been. Yeah, I think it was 19. I think that.

That has also really changed these women.

[Jack Tarantino]

Absolutely. I mean, it's a fan fest.

[Heather McDonald]

It's like there was a humbleness about them that, like, I watched the show and I was so into it, but it wasn't that popular. And when I would meet them, they'd be like, oh, you know who I am. I don't think that even walking around O.C. it wasn't this, like, famous thing. They were still. Don't you think in those years they were able to kind of like. And so they didn't see themselves as stars. Like, maybe they had one time they were on a talk show or whatever, but now it's like that, you know, you're a rock star and it's like. I think that's. I just think it changes the dynamic of what it was. And you can't blame them for it. They should have that fun. And they. You can't blame Bravo for wanting it and the fans love it. But it definitely changes what it was.

[Jack Tarantino]

It does. And it makes it harder to sort of produce the women because they become so savvy. You know, when they're going to something like Bravocon and they're being treated like when the Beatles came out. People are screaming in 1960.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Jack Tarantino]

I mean, and people are screaming for them. I'll give you a funny example. My husband and I flew down to Puerto Vallarta a couple Christmases ago and we had dinner with Vicky and Mike.

[Heather McDonald]

We're going to Mexico.

[Jack Tarantino]

We're in Mexico. And we went with her to Andalais, of course. And on the way there, I'm arm in arm with Vicky, and this woman comes out of nowhere and screams, Vicky Kuvo San. And it freaked me the hell out. Right. And I was like, vicky, don't you get freaked out when your fans come and scream your name? She's like, are you kidding me? They love me. She's the mayor down there. So. And now that the show's global, right, they really have become full on celebrities and they're getting brand deals and they're getting commercials. I mean, look at Kandi Burruss. She's like a full fledged worldwide producer.

[Heather McDonald]

She's worldwide.

[Jack Tarantino]

She's worldwide, yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

I mean, she had a career, a very successful career in one of the hardest industries, songwriting and producing, prior to it. So, like, that's really great. And she makes great tv and she's just smart and extremely likable.

[Jack Tarantino]

Yeah. But to break into the Broadway, like, that's such a. Oh, totally.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Jack Tarantino]

That's a tight group of people. And so, you know, for her to, like, be able to break in as a producer.

[Heather McDonald]

Not just doing Roxie Hart.

[Jack Tarantino]

Absolutely. Not just doing Roxie Hart.

It kind of is. You know, you're blonde and you're on a popular reality show. Who wants to play Roxy next? You know?

[Heather McDonald]

Exactly.

Gina Kino. Now, she was an original.

[Jack Tarantino]

Yeah, Gina was one of the originals.

[Heather McDonald]

Here we go. And there was always that controversy. She's done some interviews about.

What happened with why she left. And my understanding is that it just came down to negotiations, which we know back then it wasn't a big money maker.

As for the cast, you didn't make the money wasn't. I mean, the money was better than working in, you know, as, you know, an executive assistant or something, or working at Nordstrom. But it wasn't actress changing money. It's not like you were on Friends.

[Jack Tarantino]

No, it was not life changing money. In fact, the first season, these girls go on they end up spending more money than they make.

[Heather McDonald]

Right. Even today.

[Jack Tarantino]

Even today, yeah. Yeah. But, you know, by the time season five rolled around, I would say that for Gina, you know, I think it did come down to contract negotiations. And I also think that from Bravo's perspective, that I think they wanted to make the franchise. The franchise was bigger than any one housewife. And so I think it sent a shockwave throughout all of the franchise. I mean, back then, it was only OC And I think New York had just started, and I think they were starting to look for other cast in different cities. But I think that gave Bravo the upper hand. It's like, no. No one. No one housewife is bigger than the franchise.

[Heather McDonald]

Everyone is dependable.

[Jack Tarantino]

Everyone. I mean, and you saw it when Vicky got let go, I think that also was another one, because the OG of the OCS being let go, that meant anybody could be let go.

[Heather McDonald]

And don't you think sometimes, even if it wasn't conscious, it's kind of like, you know, if we're gonna let her go, you better just.

[Jack Tarantino]

Yes.

[Heather McDonald]

Get your marching orders and stay in line.

[Jack Tarantino]

You know, the assignment.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Jack Tarantino]

And you. You know, you act accordingly. That's why it's. To be honest, it's a little hard watching the shows now with all these, like, giving stories to bloggers and, you know, watching OC this past season, I don't know if I really enjoyed it. I have to say the truth. And I was so hopeful when Gretchen came back on. Cause I love Gretchen. My husband and I have socialized with her and Slade, but I just felt like she didn't really capture what I think everyone was hopeful that she was gonna capture. Meaning, like, taking Tamara to task, I think.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah, but, you know, that's the thing. You don't have the control of the narrative. And so then that. So when the stories were presented, then that was the thing that she had to then defend herself against. Whether she said the thing about the naked wasted or not or whatever. And I don't think that was the intention. I think the intention was to show this fun side of her life now as a young mom and a successful influencer, and she's still with the guy from 16 years ago, that everyone thought that he was just there to be on the show. I think they wanted to show that. But then they still have trauma, you know, from the residual effects of being on the show and, like, defending themselves. And.

Yeah, I think that. Yeah, it's all that, you know, of, like, how that. How it changes. And I think that you Know, even, like, when I met Shannon Beador for the first time, she was like, oh, I had to, like, go down the street to have someone do my eyelashes or whatever. She's like, I've never worn fake eyelashes before I was cast.

[Jack Tarantino]

Wow.

[Heather McDonald]

And now every woman has full hair and makeup, hair extensions and those things. Once you start them.

You can't stop it. You have to keep that up. And that is such an expense. And I can understand why, because they look back and they're like, oh, my God, I had no upper lip. Now I get lip filler. Oh, my God. How was I not knowing about contouring my skin or whatever? And then also the house and stuff, someone being like, I can't believe you have that old thing from Z Gallery. I got it in 2008. And you're like, oh, I still do have that thing from z gallery in 2008. I better change that now. There's a whole nother expense there.

[Jack Tarantino]

It's funny that you say that. So I got interviewed. A book is coming out next year, and it talks about the 2008 market crash and specifically season five of the Real Housewives of Orange county because of how that show was perceived, right? And all these women had to sort of live up to this lifestyle. Most of them did. Most of them owned their homes and lived in coto in these beautiful homes. But there were a couple that did not. And we ended up capturing one of them on camera, famously, was Lynn Curtin. She got evicted from her Laguna beach home that they were renting.

[Heather McDonald]

So you were really filming that day, and really, the person who actually owned the property had someone knock the door and serve them.

[Jack Tarantino]

No. So I got a call from the realtor, who, you know, when you're living in Orange county and you're shooting the show, everyone you make friends with people that are gonna be in the orbit. So they called me, and they actually wanted to come during filming to serve her the eviction notice. But we had this big dinner party, and there was so much story to service. I said, well, can you just give it a beat and come tomorrow morning? So that's why we knew the cameras. That's why the cameras were up. We knew it was coming. So those are happy accidents that happened. Because, you know, when you're a good producer, I think knowing the town and knowing the right people, it sort of, you know, you get a leg up on sort of knowing exactly what's going on in the world, not just with each of the individual ladies, but the truth is, we knew that Lynn And Frank were, you know, they couldn't really afford that lifestyle. But, I mean, don't rent a $17,000 a month home or however much it was. If you can't afford it, we're still gonna fall. You're on the show.

[Heather McDonald]

I remember they gave one of the girls a BMW and then she got the facelift. And, you know. And this is all on the budget of selling a cuff or two.

[Jack Tarantino]

Exactly.

[Heather McDonald]

You know, and I also remember that Gretchen went and was trying to be like a big sister to the daughters and help, and that was not received well. And the girls have struggled, you know, sadly.

And that's also really what's interesting now is that now there's so much as, I would say, juicy scoop history, that we can actually go back and be like, wow, how did this affect this person positively or negatively or whatever being on the show? So interesting. Let's talk a little bit about.

Brooks and Vicky. This is by far my favorite of all storylines that have ever happened. Because it was not.

A blogger leaking it. No, we did not know it.

[Jack Tarantino]

No.

[Heather McDonald]

And I don't think, even though I was friendly with the women, I don't think I knew what was happening, except I went to. I'm pretty sure this was happening. Heather Debrow and Terry did a book called like the Mr. And Mrs. Guinea Pig or whatever. And it hadn't come out yet, but they wanted to have like a book party for it. And I went to it and actually then had dinner with Gretchen and Slade after. And they weren't on the show anymore. And I'm in that episode. Cause I'm talking to Vicky and I want to say it was around this time and she was telling me, the girls are being horrible to me. And I had already had dinner with Brooks, so we thought he was nice. So I didn't know why they were being mean to her. She just told me they're being horrible to me this season. And then I got to watch it and saw that it was the fake cancer story.

[Jack Tarantino]

Oh. I mean, it's something that she will never let down. I think it's her biggest regret was the day she met that guy. I mean, I actually never met Brooks. Cause I had already moved on from the show. But I have to say, I mean, here's something that you know that most people on camera knows. The camera never lies. Right. So what that means is the essence of whatever's happening in the situation, the camera picks up on that. I mean, we all saw it with him as soon as he walked on. I mean.

I was watching as a fan from home. Cause I watched the show before I started working on it and I watched it after I left. And it's just Vicky, you know. I know. I think I reached out to her at one point just to check on her. She was not having a good time. That story will forever go down as a black cloud over her for sure.

[Heather McDonald]

And in your opinion because I don't know the truth. I don't know anybody knows the truth. Do you think she as she was making the binder from him going to Hogue or which he wasn't. Do you think she ever suspected it or she was just like la la la la la and didn't really want to know and just hoped that he would get better once the cameras were done and then they would never have to talk about it again?

[Jack Tarantino]

Yeah, I think it was the latter.

[Heather McDonald]

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[Jack Tarantino]

I mean, Vicki's a very smart woman, so I'M sure there were red flags for her, but I think if she really, really knew the extent of his scheming, I think she would have confided in someone and that person would have come forward by now. So I really do think she was bamboozled by, I hate to say it, but her love tank was full from him.

[Heather McDonald]

You know what? I have gone back and forth, and.

One of my things that I'm kind of obsessed with is just grifters in general. And there have been a lot of long form documentaries and podcasts on grifters. And one common denominator is the making up of cancer, of lying about cancer. And there are so many people that get tricked by it that, you know, oh, my God, I met her at church and I was, oh, we were mom friends and she was my girlfriend. And when you hear it, you're just like, how could you not know? But now that there's been so many other stories besides Vicki's, I'm actually a little more sympathetic to what it was. Because if you are not a medical professional, if you never had cancer, if you never cared for someone that had cancer, you could just be like, oh, my God, he's so strong. Those Jamba Juice, you know, smoothies are really working.

[Jack Tarantino]

I mean, here's what I will say in Vicki's defense. I would say that if she did really know, like, I think she would have come clean at some point. I really do, because.

[Heather McDonald]

But then that would have mean if you're gonna come clean about your partner, no matter what it is, fake cancer, he yells at me, he's abusive, whatever, you're gonna come clean to anybody, but especially on tv, then, you know, you can't be with that person anymore.

[Jack Tarantino]

And I think that was the hard thing.

[Heather McDonald]

She wasn't ready to give him up.

[Jack Tarantino]

She wasn't. And you know, look what it did with her relationship with her daughter. I mean, and that was all on camera. I mean, poor Brianna has PTSD from that show anyway. But I think that exasperated everything because she also fought a potential cancer diagnosis afterwards. And so of all the things of her on herself. Yeah, they thought that she, she had all those thyroid issues.

[Heather McDonald]

Oh, you mean Brianna.

[Jack Tarantino]

Brianna, yes, yes. And so, you know, I mean, that's a hard thing to sort of have to deal with with your own daughter, even to this day. Vicky, if you bring up that name, you just can see her. It just is the biggest mistake of her life.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah. Because I mean, it sounded like through the reunion with that they had something going on. But while she was still married to Dawn. Whether it was just emotional or whatever, he was, you know, in her. Texting her something. Brooks. And so I think that she ended her relationship with Don knowing that she had this other guy and he turned out to be a piece of shit. And did she get him all new teeth?

[Jack Tarantino]

100%, I'm sure of it. I mean, he didn't have a pot to piss in. I mean, listen, that's the thing about Vicki. She's got a big heart.

[Heather McDonald]

Was there any time that you thought that she would be the first lady of California? No. Remember when she was. When he was dating Steve Lodge?

[Jack Tarantino]

Yes.

[Heather McDonald]

Brother of Roger Lodge, host of Blind Date.

[Jack Tarantino]

Blind Date, Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

One of my favorite shows.

[Jack Tarantino]

Steve was another one of those guys that is. It's just like Bronwyn's Todd.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Jack Tarantino]

I mean, I just don't understand, like, he gives, like, grandpa energy. Like, I don't.

[Heather McDonald]

And then he married, like a 35.

[Jack Tarantino]

Year old, and he's the one that bitches about the show so much, and yet he's doing scene after scene after scene. If you really have that big of a problem with the show, then don't be on the show. There's many husbands that have said they just don't want to be on camera.

[Heather McDonald]

And can that hurt a housewife, her employment?

[Jack Tarantino]

It can hurt a housewife getting on the show because the show's about being a housewife. Right. But if the husband suddenly decides in the next season that they don't want to be on, they can't force him to be on.

[Heather McDonald]

Right. But don't you think that could cause problems for them in a marriage? Because I would be like, if I love doing this. And I think.

And then the producer's like, oh, really? Peter's not gonna show up for that? No, he's not. All right, well, all the other husbands are gonna be there. I'd be like, oh, my God, Peter, you're ruining this for me. I've always wanted to be on tv, but I gave it up so that I could be a mom. And now it's my time to shine, and you're just taking it away. And I think that's why it leads to so many divorces. I think with. Not that everyone that got divorced had a perfectly happy marriage before, but I think without the cameras, at least half of those divorces probably wouldn't have happened. They would have ridden the wave of tougher times with teenagers and whatever, and probably ended up just staying together because. Why not? Because the opportunity to leave financially or whatnot. Wouldn't be there. Do you agree?

[Jack Tarantino]

I totally agree. And it's funny because there's this thing, the housewife curse. Right. That they all allude to. And I think the kicker was when Kyle and Mauricio parted ways, because I think we all thought that is a relationship we all can aspire to. And once that was over, it's like, oh, wow. There really is some truth to this housewife curse, because there's not very many housewife marriages that are still intact. In fact, most of them aren't even in relationships.

[Heather McDonald]

I think only Lisa Vanderpump and Ken.

[Jack Tarantino]

And Melissa and Joe Gordon and Melissa and Joe.

[Heather McDonald]

That's it.

[Jack Tarantino]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

And so.

And I think with Kyle and Mauricio, what? Also, there was one thing that she said when she was, like, just, you know, crying about it, where she was like. It was the thing. She said something. Not the thing I'm most proud of. She was saying something like. It made me think that, again, if she wasn't at this level of being a public figure for being herself, if she was just continued to be an actor or a mom or whatever, probably they would have gotten divorced 10 years ago. I think she hung on because she was the one.

Giving this example. She was put on this pedestal as this cute couple that still screwed and looked attractive and were fun. And the only other person that had it was Kathy Hilton. So her sister Kim had been married, divorced four times.

And of course, she came from a mom that had several husbands. So I think she wanted to have that. And why do you think she won't come out as just whatever she is? I guess we're gonna finally see it a little bit this season. Which airs, I think tonight is, you know, well, maybe I'll go for Brad or Angelina. Like, what is now. Now that everyone's gay on the Housewives, we're like, ugh, you should have come out when you. When you could.

[Jack Tarantino]

Like, it would have been so much such a bigger story. I think your point about Kyle having to sort of hold it all together for a. Her daughters.

[Heather McDonald]

Yes.

[Jack Tarantino]

Right.

[Heather McDonald]

Which a lot of women do. Yeah.

[Jack Tarantino]

And a lot of women do that. And I think that they were sort of that prized couple that everyone looked. Even though the streets were talking about him for years.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Jack Tarantino]

Having a wandering eye or whatever. So I think it was her responsibility to keep that marriage intact. But, you know, she only did it for as long as she could. And now we'll see. But I agree, if she would have come out five years ago, oh, my God. She would have, like, her star would have really taken off. Now it's kind of like. Well, who isn't? Yeah, everyone. I mean, they all are now. I mean, she might have an OnlyFans page next. I mean, who knows, you know? Right.

[Heather McDonald]

Geared towards late in life lesbians. How about that? There's a business.

[Jack Tarantino]

Exactly.

[Heather McDonald]

Let's move on. So Jen Shaw of Real Housewives of Salt Lake City, who did. Was sentenced to, like, nine years. Only did about a little over two and a half. I think she's getting out December 10th. And her crime was pretty bad in that she ran a huge scheme that really took. Took advantage of the elderly and vulnerable people, which was so cruel because it gave them hope to, like, have their own business.

[Jack Tarantino]

I know.

[Heather McDonald]

So it was like a triple screwover.

[Jack Tarantino]

Oh, yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

You know, and then she. I didn't. I never liked her from the moment I saw her on camera. I didn't like that she was screaming and yelling. I didn't like that she was all flashy. And that was another thing I was gonna say that someone said. Maybe it was Tamara whoever. Not until Heather Dubrow came on with her Chanel and her real Chanel and her actual. You know, because she came from money, too.

[Jack Tarantino]

She did.

[Heather McDonald]

She came from money. She had her own money. She married someone that has the potential of making a lot of money, and he did. So, yeah, I don't think she was buying her stuff.

Out of someone's trunk. Like, it was all real. And I think that also upped the ante of all these women having to have this labely stuff. And I think probably 80% of it's fake that we see.

[Jack Tarantino]

Oh, yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

And probably maybe a 20 is real.

[Jack Tarantino]

Or it's on loan from a stylist maybe. You know what I mean? Some of these girls are wearing stuff that they begged, borrowed, and stealed to get on. But Heather, that's why we loved Heather so much, because she was the real deal. She was living. Bravo. Used to, like.

Talk about the aspirational lifestyle like it was Bible. So we were indoctrinated with that word. And so that when I was shooting the show, I always shot it through that lens of how are we showcasing their aspirational lifestyles? And I feel like the essence of the Housewives has kind of gotten away from that a little bit because there's so much fighting and drama that we're not really getting to see a bunch of their real life, you know, and how they live those aspirational lifestyles. But with someone like Heather, who is the real deal.

That'S why I love her on the show. And I know she sometimes can be polarizing to people, but she really. It embodies that in a housewife.

[Heather McDonald]

You know what I just kind of realized just now? Cause I'm so brilliant. No. I remember one time asking somebody, why do you watch Hallmark movies? They're so boring compared to a Lifetime movie, but the same level of cheese. And someone said, cause nothing ever bad happens on them. And I don't have anxiety watching it. Like I would a Dateline or even a Lifetime movie where the nanny tries to kill the mother or whatever. And I feel like that's the difference. In the last eight years of Housewives, it was fun. It was comfort. You'd watch a marathon of it and you'd go out and you'd almost feel like you were in it. You know what I mean? Like, same with even like the Real World back in the day. And now I think you watch it and it gives you anxiety. You have some anxiety for some people. Some people love that. Some people, you know, like I said, some people, I like watching Datelines and whatnot. I'm okay watching it. But when you go back and you saw them doing Angel Water and. You know what I mean? And it was more their individual lives. But maybe the women would kind of know each other, but they didn't have conflict with each other. It was more like we're inside their home seeing what their life is like. That's what I think the difference is. And I don't know that it could ever get back to that.

[Jack Tarantino]

Well, these are guilty pleasure type shows to begin with. But you're right when you. All you see is drama, drama, drama. It's like you've eaten one too many chocolates and you kind of feel sick to your stomach.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Jack Tarantino]

When we were doing the show, the recipe was really balanced in showcasing them as a mom, as a wife, as a business person. And then they would get together with these women. And then of course, you would need a little bit of drama and a little bit of comedy. I mean, I think that's what was so fun about the Trace Amigas. When they would get a little tipsy and it would be fun to like, laugh with them. Yeah. Now, especially on a show like Salt Lake City Housewives, where it's just like the screaming, like the pitch of the scream. It's hard to digest that when it's just constant, constant drama with her.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Jack Tarantino]

With Jensha. Here's what I will say about Jensha. And I hear you. Once all this stuff came out I was like, absolutely not. But I actually liked her as a character, and here's why. She was the anchor of that show. She was the one that they're all vying now on the current season to be the head bitch in charge. And I don't see it from anyone, really, other than Mary Cosby. Cause for me, she's like. She's the comedic genius. Like, I don't think they use her enough, But I don't know. Like, I would love to see Jen back on the show just to see what that would elicit, but it sounds like Andy's been pretty clear that she is not going to.

[Heather McDonald]

Why do you think they're so against it when they've had so many criminals on the show as it is? And she actually did her time. I mean, and if Karen Huger of Potomac, after her fourth dui, actually went and did her time and came back and got a standing ovation at BravoCon, and people were like, yeah, because she did her time, and we love her. Like, well, then why? Why not? I mean, she.

[Jack Tarantino]

Why single Jen out? Because she. I mean, Teresa went to jail. Right.

[Heather McDonald]

I think also with Karen Huger, like, she only hurt a tree and herself. And even with Shannon Beador, Archie was okay. She hit a curb.

[Jack Tarantino]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

Like, with this, there were real victims. So no one died. They were real victims.

[Jack Tarantino]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

Though it's a little of a complicated thing to follow, which is why the audience then loses interest. And they would forgive her if she came back.

[Jack Tarantino]

Yeah. I wouldn't be surprised if she made her way back onto the show, as much as they keep protesting that she is absolutely not coming back to the show. Because here's the thing. What part of the reality is gonna be censored and for what reason? You just said all these other women have gone to jail and have done all these really bad things as well. Yes, she did something bad. But let's hear why we never got to hear Jen's side of the story. And so wouldn't you want it to be from a Bravo show where she was able to finally tell her story and redeem herself? She did her time. She's paying restitution to these people. Listen, I don't agree with what she did at all times. Horrible. But when we're talking strictly from a cast perspective, she. Imagine her walking into. I already have it in my mind. She would meet Heather, and then Heather would.

[Heather McDonald]

Heather gay.

[Jack Tarantino]

Heather gay. And then they would do a surprise, like dinner where Jen would show up. Imagine what that would look like on that show. I Think it would be genius.

[Heather McDonald]

Yes, I agree. Do you think she'll do Dancing with the Stars?

[Jack Tarantino]

She's gonna do something.

[Heather McDonald]

I think it'll be the villain, like villains first, which I don't even think is that big of a hit. So maybe she should hold out for traitors.

[Jack Tarantino]

Oh, yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

And then maybe something.

[Jack Tarantino]

I don't think dancing would bring her on until somebody. Somebody's gotta be the first to do it. That's why. I don't know why Bravo wouldn't bring her on.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Jack Tarantino]

Or at least do a sit down interview with her and let her tell her side of the story. We never really heard it from her perspective.

[Heather McDonald]

This is what she has to say.

She has to say, I.

Compartmentalized it and I told myself that what we were doing was not going to hurt anyone's life and we were giving them hope. And I didn't think it was. And I just did not think it was a big deal because also what they were taking was not millions, but to someone it was a big deal. So for some people it was like $3,000. For other people it was $35,000. But there were so many of them. So I think to her, what she could say is, to me, because I lived a privileged life, I felt like we were just scraping off from a lot of people, and in the process, I was making the people that were. That were. That we're stealing from the poor people a better life. And I know that's absolutely horrible, but I got. I got rolled up in it. And she can also say, and I was supporting the whole Polynesian Cultural center or whatever it was. And like, she. I don't know, she needs to come up. She had two years to come up with it.

[Jack Tarantino]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

So she's got to come up with it where she takes responsibility. But then she also says how she was able to wake up every morning and continue to do it.

[Jack Tarantino]

And even then, a lot of people will still despise her, but at least she'll open the door to sort of, you know, make amends.

[Heather McDonald]

Right. Okay, so what do you think about Wendy, Dr. Wendy and Happy Eddie? They apparently they wanted to separate their cases and the judge said no. And so, I mean, I would think the reason you want to separate your cases is as hope that one could blame the other. Or maybe they had a plan where Eddie would take the fall and she could be with the kids and. But it seems pretty clear that they were 100% in it together from what the evidence that's out there. So the judge is like, no.

[Jack Tarantino]

Oh, yeah. I think your point about him taking the fall so that she could be at home with the kids is that makes the most sense. But I don't know. I don't think it looks good for these two. I think they're definitely gonna do some time.

[Heather McDonald]

Definitely. I just don't think you go this route unless you. I mean, even the little bit that we've seen is, like, done. You know what you were doing, though.

[Jack Tarantino]

They knew what they were doing. The neighbors knew what they were doing. The streets knew what they were doing.

[Heather McDonald]

I just wonder if, with all her four degrees, if she's gonna go another route of the pressure of being on this show to look a certain way, throw the parties, do all this. I was a professor. We don't make a lot of money. When I'm on CNN as a talking head, it's for free. You guys didn't pay me a lot. It's your fault. Bravo. That we had to do this and not that she would. Maybe she could sue. Who knows? Anyone can sue, but, like, Will. Cause he's an attorney. So just watch. Something's gonna happen where it's going to be. The blame is gonna be completely shifted on. We had to do this to keep up 100%.

[Jack Tarantino]

But here's the argument against that, right? She's got four degrees. She's a smart cookie.

[Heather McDonald]

Well, this is why people say higher education doesn't matter anymore.

[Jack Tarantino]

She knew what she was doing. Oh, sure.

[Heather McDonald]

She knew what she was doing.

[Jack Tarantino]

She knew what they were doing.

[Heather McDonald]

That's what she's gonna say. I knew what I was doing, but I had to do it. I had to do it. And I didn't think again. Stealing from an insurance company per se, when we've paid this much a month. I didn't think it was that terrible of a crime. And I think again, some people sitting at home might be like, yeah, you didn't kill anybody. You didn't molest a kid. You know? Okay. But just. I mean, I disagree. I think they're awful. I hate this kind of stuff.

[Jack Tarantino]

Theresa signed those papers that her husband put in front of her, and she went to jail. And so what was her. You know, I just don't see any. She can try to sue. She can try to spin it any way it's right.

[Heather McDonald]

Well, also, she's just not as likable as a Theresa, too.

[Jack Tarantino]

No, she's. She's not. She's not.

[Heather McDonald]

So when we're. Let's go back to Salt Lake real quick. So what. So you say you Love Mary. Cause she's funny. I agree. Anything. How do you feel about Whitney and her husband Justin? A lot of people think they're the next two break up and get divorced.

[Jack Tarantino]

They are literally hanging on by a thread. And I wouldn't be surprised, if not this season, then next season they go down. Because the scene on last or this past week's episode, he is so guilty. I mean, again, I go back to the camera. Never lies. And you can see even though he's not saying anything, his body language is like guilt, guilt, guilt, guilt for how.

[Heather McDonald]

He screwed up the business or whatever.

[Jack Tarantino]

How he screwed up the business and whatever he took from the business. And I think she's trying to hold it together for the kids.

[Heather McDonald]

I. Yeah, I think whatever this beauty line is, I don't really understand it. I don't know if she just, like, white labeled it, but because she had a name, Sephora was. Could have been excited. He took her to the MLM route. It went nowhere because she's not, you know, she's not a dermatologist. She's not. I don't know. I think it's very hard for these people to sell products. We had Shanna Beador's lemon pants and her sphinxer or whatever it was, her.

[Jack Tarantino]

Frozen fish, Sonia's toaster oven.

[Heather McDonald]

Toaster oven, candles, like, things like that. Like, the only one that's really made it work is Lisa Vanderpump, because she already was a restaurateur and she already had successful things.

[Jack Tarantino]

And Bethenny Frankel, I mean, I think she knew the assignment better than anyone. She had in her head what she wanted to use this platform for, and she super succeeded.

[Heather McDonald]

And if you don't know, she'll tell you.

[Jack Tarantino]

Oh, she'll tell you. But I think going back to Whitney, it proves my point about the essence of these shows. And I think because we haven't really seen her with her kids being a mom, that it's almost like.

[Heather McDonald]

Whitney, you mean? Yeah, yeah.

[Jack Tarantino]

It's kind of hard to invest.

In feeling empathy for her with Jason, because Justin. I'm sorry, Justin. When you see them.

Mothering and being a mom, there's something a little bit more forgiving that you want to lean into.

[Heather McDonald]

I always feel really badly for Brandi Glanville because her husband Eddie wouldn't let the boys be on the show. I know. And she was always like, no one's seeing me cook with them and do all these things, so it's just me dating guys, being drunk, whatever. And. Yeah, you kind of. And same you know, same with Tamara when they. She couldn't have the kids on all.

[Jack Tarantino]

Those years, you get to see the softer side. And I think you can relate to them a little bit more when you see them as a mom.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah. So. But I mean, it is very entertaining. Lisa Barlow, what do you think her deal is? Does she have these businesses or not? What's up with it?

[Jack Tarantino]

I think she has probably some of her businesses, but there's another marriage that isn't real trouble.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Jack Tarantino]

And her husband looks like deer in headlights.

[Heather McDonald]

Right.

[Jack Tarantino]

And I feel for him, but I think he's finally trying to grab his voice on some level. But she. She's a piece of work.

[Heather McDonald]

Well, I saw the four of them together, Meredith, Seth and Lysa and John, and they were all together and it looked like they were having fun. So hopefully they're not gonna let this like, end their family or their marriage. But like, it's. And then Bronwyn and Todd, I mean, I mean, that has got to go.

[Jack Tarantino]

So. I actually didn't really care for Bronwyn in the beginning. Cause I felt like every time she came out, she was wearing couture or the couture was wearing or the blow up costumes. I mean, it just got one man.

[Heather McDonald]

How annoyed was he? He was like, ugh, we have to at the airport again. I just got off a 10 hour flight and I have to be like, oh, what are you today, a sloth?

[Jack Tarantino]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

All right, let's deflate you before we get in the car.

[Jack Tarantino]

I mean, that's my point about. He doesn't.

[Heather McDonald]

I really think she did that before the show aired. No, neither do I.

[Jack Tarantino]

No. And not all of us do.

[Heather McDonald]

I really think every week she's coming in a different. When he doesn't love it, he's like, hi. Like, she's like, he loves it. Todd loves it. When I dress up into a. He doesn't love it.

[Jack Tarantino]

No, he doesn't love it.

[Heather McDonald]

He probably would be just fine hopping in an Uber and you're not even picking him up.

[Jack Tarantino]

But how gross is it to imagine that man kissing some girl while he's farting? Like, the whole story. Just like if I was the producer on that show, I would have such a tough time with a man. Like, dealing with a man like that. Like, imagine what my job was like, Heather, when I would not only have to produce the women and their children, but then I had the element of the husbands that was not fun. The one I would say that I really respected the most was Don Gunvalson and Slade because they were. They were just respectful people. And they understood the process of being on a TV show, and they understood their roles. Some of these husbands come on, and it's like they. They can't give their wife the spotlight. Like, just step behind them. This is your wife's time to shine. You know, with the exception of Joe Gorga. Because we all love him, right? We all feel like he's a housewife. Which is, I think, a big reason why they keep Melissa on the show is because they get Joe. So they get two for the price of one.

[Heather McDonald]

So true. Going back to what I was gonna say about Housewives when you had it. The infamous scene of when Tamara and Simon's marriage, where she just had fucking had it in the limo, where she's like, you're a fucking asshole. I'm gonna divorce you. And he was just like, you said you'd go bowling with the kids. And she's like, I had an event with Vicki, which I think without breaking the fourth wall, it was probably something Housewives related.

[Jack Tarantino]

It was.

[Heather McDonald]

And again, he was, like, resentful that she. She was not only, you know, becoming a star and being on tv, but, you know, that she wanted to do these things.

[Jack Tarantino]

So I was there that morning. That was.

The day of our final party, the finale. And he was just being a dick to her. He didn't like the outfit she had that she was gonna put on. Like the bickering had gone beyond just like the normal bickering. Cause he was so controlling for her.

But I noticed a change in her, like, her tone back to him. Cause she used to cover for him a lot on camera. She would play the doting wife. And then when the cameras were off, you know, they'd have their fights or whatever. But on this particular day, I just remember it, and my whole being was like, we gotta follow this, because something's gonna go down in the limo. So I threw a producer and a camera in their limo ride over to.

[Heather McDonald]

Cause normally you wouldn't.

[Jack Tarantino]

Well, back then, I only had a certain amount of cameras. So I had to follow where I thought the action was or where the story was taking us. So we'd shoot a little with this one, and then the camera would move and go shoot a little of this one. When we used to shoot them getting ready for these events. Cause you would always get some gold moments in those. In those moments. But I knew there was something here. So I had the producer and the camera guy get in the car with them. And as soon as the producer came and he Grabbed me and he's like, oh, my God, she just asked Simon for a divorce. So all the cameras now were following that story.

But those are those moments. Like, as a producer, I am an intuitive, so I am an intuitive producer. So I would go with what my gut and what my feelings were, and I just knew that that was coming. But that was, like, one of the most iconic moments that season.

[Heather McDonald]

It was because it's just like you just. You felt it and you knew it and.

Now you. So you weren't there when she was. She was the first housewife to do a bathtub scene.

[Jack Tarantino]

Oh, yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

No, I was with Eddie. Were you there for the bathtub with Eddie?

[Jack Tarantino]

So let me just clear something up for all of those people who wonder if Eddie's gay. Eddie is not gay.

[Heather McDonald]

I don't wonder it.

[Jack Tarantino]

What? I don't know where this.

[Heather McDonald]

I've been saying this from the very beginning. I'm like, do you know how much easier Eddie's life could have been if he was gay?

[Jack Tarantino]

If Eddie was gay, A, he would be gay, and B, do you really think someone like Tamara would be married to a guy that was gay? Absolutely not. I was there. Tamara wanted to do something romantic to introduce Eddie to the audience.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay.

[Jack Tarantino]

He was so nervous, and I didn't blame him. I mean, it was his first time really being on camera. So I did a shot of tequila with him as he was doing push ups, getting ready for that scene. But that scene was all. I know people think it was kind of cringe and maybe it was, but that's what she wanted to do.

[Heather McDonald]

Right. Well, then following it was in Salt Lake was when Whitney and Justin did the roll around painting. Painting or whatever it was. What do you call that thing where you.

[Jack Tarantino]

Oh, yeah, when you do this.

[Heather McDonald]

The hands on the spots. What do you call that? You know what I mean? Where it's like all the circles. Anyway, it was like that. And allegedly. That's. Or not allegedly. I think she said it. That's how he lost his executive position at whatever MLM he was working at because of that. And so. Yeah. Where does that come up? How does. How does a producer convince somebody to get in their underwear and do a sexy paint scene?

[Jack Tarantino]

Well, it has. Here's the thing. The stories originate from the women.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay.

[Jack Tarantino]

So we. That's. We.

[Heather McDonald]

She must have said, we did that.

[Jack Tarantino]

Yeah. Or this is something we do to sort of like, show our love for each other or our sexy time or whatever it was.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Jack Tarantino]

Like, for the bathtub scene, Tamara wanted to do something really Romantic with. And she came up with that. We didn't come up with that because anytime we would try to come up with a story, it wouldn't be organic.

[Heather McDonald]

Right.

[Jack Tarantino]

And that was something that Bravo was really. They wanted it to be as authentic and organic as possible. So we would make stories out of what they would come and give to us. Yeah, right. It always originated with the women when I was producing the show. Now I see elements of stuff that I'm not quite sure is so organic.

[Heather McDonald]

Right. I definitely think it's changed since you've done it. And I think a lot of the stuff with the costumes and whatnot, every party being like a costume related party, which does make for a more entertaining scene when they're wearing George Washington wigs and things like that. So I kind of get it, like, if she, you know, why someone would be like, oh, you know, it could be fun if you did this kind of a theme or whatever. I mean, in real life, no women get together at the Four Seasons and they have lunch.

[Jack Tarantino]

Exactly.

[Heather McDonald]

Nobody's doing costumes. But wait, I wanted to talk about before we go back to. The last thing is then you left OC because you had an opportunity to either produce Real Housewives of Beverly Hills or Real Housewives of Miami. And do you think this was one of your worst decisions in your life, that you chose Miami, Heather? Well, guess what, guys? Jack did answer that question. And then we got into a lot of things that are just too juicy for the regular show. So you gotta go over and enjoy my Friday Patreon to hear the rest of this interview. Thank you so much. And you go to heathermcdalin.net to get that. And now, Jack, tell us where they can get more of you and everything that you talk about on TikTok.

[Jack Tarantino]

Yeah, so my TikTok is new. It just started like a month ago. Yeah. And it's Arentinophiles. And, you know, I started it because of all the shows I've produced, Heather, the ones that I get asked about all the time still to this day are the housewives.

[Heather McDonald]

Right.

[Jack Tarantino]

Because of, you know, how big they are. And so people are just really curious about how these shows work and what they're like. And I feel like I have a. A rare point of view because I've also been a network executive. Like, I was an executive at the Style Network, and I was an executive at TLC for a long time. So I feel like I have that cross.

Experience of being both in the field making television and then being the ones that sort of buy the shows, and I just. I love it. I mean, when I first met my husband, he didn't watch any of the shows. And can I tell you, when we watched the show, I can't get him to shut up.

[Heather McDonald]

Now when you watch new episodes and.

[Jack Tarantino]

I have to stop the show because I'm like, listen, I have to talk about this show on my TikTok tomorrow. And I can't hear what they're saying because you're so invested in it. So now he's a huge fan of it as well. So, yeah, so I started the TikTok about a month ago, and I'm having a blast. It's so much fun.

[Heather McDonald]

Oh, good. Well, I'm so glad you came. You'll have to come back. I'll come back maybe like when there's like a. In a couple weeks with the reunions and stuff like that, or Beverly Hills. Let's talk Beverly Hills next time you come. And everything else. And so, everybody, thank you so much. Go to heathermcdonald.net, join my Patreon. Love you. Bye.

[Monet X Change]

All right, y', all gather round because Monet X change from sibling rivalry is here with an announcement. This episode of the podcast is brought to you by Google Gemini. Now, listen, the girls over at Google said Monet, tell the children. So I'm telling you, us college students, get Google Gemini's Pro plan free for one year. Use the best model in the world for multimodal understanding. So whether you're uploading a video to get feedback on your presentation, uploading a photo of your homework to ask for help, or transcribing notes from a lecture you missed, Gemini 3 Pro can help. And, baby, if I had this in college, oh, she would have been unstoppable. Picture it. Monet X changed in the library. Uploading picture of my music theory homework like Gemini, please help a diva out. Or recording my rehearsal videos for feedback instead of crying in the practice room for three hours, this would have been life changing. Now back to the goods. Sign up to get more access to Google's Most accurate model, Gemini 3 Pro. Unlimited image uploads, pro level image editing, higher limits in NotebookLM, Gemini in Gmail and Docs, two terabytes of storage and more. You heard me, two terabytes. That's enough space to store every vocal warmup, drag race look, and every photo your aunt sends you of her plants. Visit gemiini Google students to learn more and sign up terms apply Limu imu.

[Jack Tarantino]

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[Heather McDonald]

Fascinating.

[Jack Tarantino]

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