Cheryl Hines on Hollywood Backlash, RFK, Curb and Comedy

Summary

Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald: Cheryl Hines on Hollywood Backlash, RFK, Curb, and Comedy

Episode Date: October 30, 2025
Host: Heather McDonald
Guest: Cheryl Hines

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Episode Overview

In this candid and lively conversation, Heather McDonald welcomes her longtime friend Cheryl Hines—actress, author, and comedian—to dish on life, Hollywood, careers, family, and navigating controversy as the wife of RFK Jr. The episode spans their shared early days in comedy, Hines' rise to fame with Curb Your Enthusiasm, her experiences with divorce and blended family, as well as the dramatic fallout from her husband's political ambitions. Cheryl’s new memoir "Unscripted" provides the backbone, prompting reflection on reinvention, manifestation, motherhood, friendship, and gracefully handling Hollywood’s shifting loyalties.

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Table of Contents

1. Early Days: The Groundlings and Formative Years (01:17–07:38)
2. Love, Loss, and Sliding Doors (07:38–15:15)
3. Pyramid Schemes and Hustling in LA (15:36–19:14)
4. The Groundlings: Friendship and Career Launchpads (19:14–23:13)
5. Curb Your Enthusiasm: Landing the Role and Behind the Scenes (23:13–27:16)
6. Hollywood Hustle: Auditions and Resilience (27:16–33:32)
7. Motherhood, Work, and Work-Life Balance (39:24–53:48)
8. Blended Families, Grandkids, and Being "Share Bear" (53:48–56:14)
9. On RFK Jr, Politics, and Hollywood Fallout (59:24–75:27)
10. Navigating Friendship Breakups and Cancel Culture (66:07–76:08)
11. Vaccine Discourse, Censorship, & Public Backlash (74:17–82:23)
12. The View Appearance and Media Challenges (82:23–87:48)
13. Career Shifts, Blackballing, and Accepting Change (88:03–95:01)
14. Manifestation, Regrets, and the Kennedy Connection (95:16–99:00)
15. RFK Run, Social Media Hate, and Staying Grounded (99:21–104:21)
16. Old Friends, Miscommunications, and Clearing the Air (104:21–119:13)
17. Reflections, Gratitude, and Lasting Friendship (119:13–END)

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1. Early Days: The Groundlings and Formative Years (01:17–07:38)

Cheryl and Heather reminisce about meeting in 1996 at The Groundlings improv theater, where they cut their teeth in comedy together.

• Nostalgic recall: Heather admits, “For me, I love funny people, but I am a shallow bitch, and I like a pretty friend.” (03:08)
• Sky Bar stories: Heather describes her elaborate English-accent ruse to get names onto hot Hollywood club lists and dragging Cheryl to these scenes.
• Sketch writing: Cheryl recalls, “You used to make me laugh… you would say, ‘I need you to show up with three good ideas.’” (03:01)

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2. Love, Loss, and Sliding Doors (07:38–15:15)

Cheryl discusses an old relationship with an investment banker, sparking a “what if”—what if she’d married into suburban normalcy instead of pursuing acting?

• Cheating revelation:
  • Cheryl finds a used condom: “As soon as I walked in, I was like, whoa, something feels weird here.” (09:49)
  • Holds her ground: “I said, let’s just cut to the chase… because of the used condom that I can see in your trash.” (13:22)
• Rage and restraint: Cheryl admits she fantasized about smashing his window but refrained: “That would have made the news—what a crazy bitch you are.” (11:54)
• Unexpected kindness:
  • Cheryl: “One of the security guards…said, ‘I could take him out’… dead serious.”
  • Heather: “Life could have gone so many different ways, Cheryl.” (14:54)

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3. Pyramid Schemes and Hustling in LA (15:36–19:14)

The juicy saga of LA’s infamous $2,000 pyramid scam.

• Cheryl: “You put in $2,000...then eventually you can walk away with, like, $60,000. But...there’s no fresh meat.” (16:04)
• Cheryl failed at hustling others: “People would be like, should I borrow money from my mom? And I’d say, ‘No, Jesus, no.’” (18:51)

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4. The Groundlings: Friendship and Career Launchpads (19:14–23:13)

Reflects on The Groundlings as a true springboard for comedy careers:

• “The only way to get an agent was—they had to be there.” (20:04)
• Feeling the cutthroat nature, hoping for more stage time: “Can I get in one more bit?” (20:07)
• How Curb Your Enthusiasm “just started as a one-hour special,” and the concept of manifesting those big moments.

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5. Curb Your Enthusiasm: Landing the Role and Behind the Scenes (23:13–27:16)

• Landing the life-changing role as Larry David's wife, then dealing with being written out for a season:
  • “Good news and bad news. Mostly bad news for you. You’re not going to be in it at all.” (26:48)
• The show’s semi-improvised style:
  • “No lines to memorize… Larry would write a three to five page story outline, but he didn’t want me to see them.” (25:38–26:32)
• The camaraderie and fun with Susie Essman: “We used to say, my god, this is the best job anybody could ever have.” (25:38)

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6. Hollywood Hustle: Auditions and Resilience (27:16–33:32)

• The anxiety and absurdity of auditions, and Jennifer Coolidge’s irreverence:
  • “She said, ‘You can go fuck yourselves. You’ve had 10 years to call me.’” (29:52)
• On casting:
  • “The casting director…wants you to be so great.” (31:13)
• Jennifer Coolidge’s casting wisdom: “If the part says attractive, I can do it. If it says very attractive—no. But if it says character looking, then I really get the part.” (31:50)

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7. Motherhood, Work, and Work-Life Balance (39:24–53:48)

• Cheryl discusses marrying her first husband (Kat’s father) and how his management skills helped her career.
• The importance of dreaming bigger and manifesting—ties into Heather’s own journey and The Secret.
• The challenge and guilt of balancing work and motherhood:
  • “Work brought me so much happiness, and it made me a happy, full person… but I kept thinking, am I doing the right thing?” (44:38)
• Honest confessions about being a mother of one:
  • “I thought about having another child, and I thought, I’m not going to like them because I love her so much.” (49:57)
  • Discussion of differing relationships with stepkids and grandkids.

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8. Blended Families, Grandkids, and Being "Share Bear" (53:48–56:14)

• Cheryl’s stepchildren and grandchildren: “You can be hot step grandma. I am! I’m Share Bear!” (53:48)
• Embracing modern family structures and rejecting the ‘grandma’ stereotype: “My mom didn’t want to be called grandma—so we called her Cracklin’ Rosie.” (53:53)
• How “Bad Moms Christmas” forced Cheryl to play a much older character, and the reality of typecasting in Hollywood.

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9. On RFK Jr, Politics, and Hollywood Fallout (59:24–75:27)

• How Cheryl met Bobby Kennedy, with Heather marveling: “Cheryl is now marrying into the Kennedy family… that’s a life!” (60:54)
• The surreal campaign trail and imagining being First Lady:
  • Cheryl: “There was hardly anybody who was daydreaming about [being First Lady].” (62:07)
  • Heather: “I want a fucking invite to the White House!” (62:00)
• Unprecedented political hostility and party switch:
  • “When he was running for president, at first, it seemed quite positive… Then it was a 180.” (71:20–71:31)
• On being dropped by Hollywood peers: “People hate me so much they are starting to hate you… I don’t want that for you.” (72:28–72:46)

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10. Navigating Friendship Breakups and Cancel Culture (66:07–76:08)

• Strained friendships, including with Tig Notaro:
  • “Tig said, ‘No, I don’t want to hear [your thoughts]…’ That was sad.” (66:34–67:38)
• The erosion of tolerance: “I know there was a time when you could agree to disagree and still be friends. Not anymore.” (70:14)
• Heather’s reflection on how extreme polarization is “like a religion on both sides.” (70:28)
• Cheryl: “I've never asked someone who they voted for.” (90:44)

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11. Vaccine Discourse, Censorship, & Public Backlash (74:17–82:23)

• Heather talks about fainting on stage after vaccination, facing internet backlash from both sides (75:15)
• Conversation on why vaccine debate is so fraught, and how personal stories get politicized:
  • Cheryl: “Why can’t we listen to someone’s experience without calling them crazy or making it political?” (77:49)

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12. The View Appearance and Media Challenges (82:23–87:48)

• Cheryl describes her recent appearance on The View, where she faced grilling about her husband:
  • “I was ready for those kind of questions… some were not questions, they were attacks.” (84:03)
  • “I wanted to connect with them and have a conversation, but…” (85:26)
• Noting the double standard women face for their spouse’s politics:
  • “If there was a man on a show with a bunch of other men… nobody would be telling him to divorce his wife over politics.” (85:26)

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13. Career Shifts, Blackballing, and Accepting Change (88:03–95:01)

• The unprovable nature of being “blackballed” in Hollywood post-politics:
  • Cheryl: “It’s an unprovable thing… it’s just one person saying no.” (88:10)
  • “There was a time when I wasn’t ready for change… the universe says, no, you can’t.” (93:25)
• Accepting the seasons of a career: “I'm completely fine with however it works out… I've done a lot of things I dreamed of doing.” (94:24–95:04)

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14. Manifestation, Regrets, and the Kennedy Connection (95:16–99:00)

• Heather and Cheryl both touting the power of positive thinking, manifestation, and reflecting on their unlikely journeys.
• Cheryl: “I really didn’t know anything about [the Kennedys]… just what I learned in school.” (97:03)
• Heather’s Catholic family stories, and how different political alignments within marriages were once not a big deal.

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15. RFK Run, Social Media Hate, and Staying Grounded (99:21–104:21)

• Hilarious and surreal moments dealing with public hate for her husband:
  • "You said the demographic of people that come and tell them to fuck you are middle aged white women." (99:30)
  • How Bobby Kennedy responds: “Just sits there and listens. And it does not have the effect that the person is hoping it will because they end up looking crazy.” (100:07)
• Enduring the campaign trail and media scandals with perspective—“I can't hear one more, this is too much. This felt like too much. I was just like, it's such a circus.” (101:37)

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16. Old Friends, Miscommunications, and Clearing the Air (104:21–119:13)

• Old LA wounds and miscommunications, like the infamous “not actually invited” birthday party email:
  • Heather: “I convinced myself you meant to invite another Heather.” (107:15)
  • Cheryl: “You really were invited by my daughter!” (107:10)
• Past podcast drama and clarification about Tig Notaro:
  • Heather: “I think someone might be mocking me…”
  • Cheryl: “I would never do that. I think you are amazing, and I’m really proud of you.” (110:29–111:13)

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17. Reflections, Gratitude, and Lasting Friendship (119:13–END)

• Humorous regrets and lingering guilt:
  • “There's a weird thing that, like, haunted Sky Bar that'll just kind of haunt me. That was not nice.” – Heather (119:04)
  • “I'm going to forgive you right now.” – Cheryl (119:13)
• On enduring friendship:
  • “We'll always have each other and you'll always have your family… The rest of it, who cares?” – Cheryl (116:15)
• Closing thoughts on enjoying the journey, not sweating public opinion, and having no major regrets.

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Notable Quotes

• On Career and Fate:
  • “There are moments in your life where you’re like, I’m just not ready for what’s about to happen. Can I have a minute? And the universe says, no, you can’t.” – Cheryl (93:25)
• On Cancel Culture:
  • “The world is so black and white now. It used to be we could agree to disagree and still be friends.” – Heather (70:14)
• On Navigating Political Hate:
  • “People hate me so much, they're starting to hate you. And I feel really bad about it, and I don't want that for you.” – Cheryl (72:28)
• On Manifestation:
  • “Your dreams have to be bigger than everyone else’s.” – Heather (41:44)
• On Lasting Friendship:
  • “We'll always have each other. … It’s going to come and go, ... Sometimes you just keep your mouth shut. A week later, they've all moved on to something else, you know?” – Heather (116:13/116:34)

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Essential Timestamps

• Meeting at The Groundlings: 01:17–07:38
• Infamous Condom/Breakup Story: 09:36–15:02
• $2K Pyramid Scheme: 15:47–19:14
• Landing Curb Your Enthusiasm: 23:13–27:16
• Motherhood and Only Child: 49:08–53:48
• Political Fallout & Friendship Loss: 66:07–76:08
• Hollywood Blackballing: 88:03–95:01
• White House Possibilities: 62:00–65:51
• On The View Experience: 82:23–87:48
• Clearing up Friendship Miscommunications: 104:21–111:13

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Tone & Language

Casual, unfiltered, and heartfelt—Heather and Cheryl keep it real and funny, never shying away from “juicy” stories or painful truths. There’s plenty of camaraderie, wit, and wisdom—all seasoned with the candid honesty of two friends who’ve seen Hollywood’s best and worst together.

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Final Thoughts

This episode is a treasure trove for anyone interested in comedy, acting, the weirdness of LA, or the messy intersection of fame and politics. Cheryl Hines shines with resilience and warmth, and Heather McDonald’s incisive but loving style brings out all the best “juicy scoop.” For new listeners, Cheryl’s book Unscripted is highly recommended for more behind-the-scenes drama and inspiration.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

When you're on the road, when you're on the go, Juicy Scoop is the show to know. She talks Hollywood tales For real life, Mr. Sacred, cereal data and cereal Sister. You'll be addicted and addicted fast to the number one tabloid real life podcast. Listen in, listen up. Whoop, whoop. Hannah McDonald. Ju. Juicy scoop.

[A]

Hello and welcome to Juicy Scoop. Well, I am very excited for our guest because she is a star, an author, a sister, a daughter, a mother.

[B]

Yes, yes.

[A]

And a wife. And she is my friend. We met in 1996 at the Groundlings. Please welcome Cheryl Hines.

[B]

Hello, Heather.

[A]

Hello. Hello. I have the book.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Looking gorgeous, unscripted. Everybody needs to go right now and pre order it because you guys, it's juicy, it's good. I unfortunately have only gotten to page 200 because I just got it a couple days ago. But my God, it's great.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

It's really a good, fun, interesting, juicy read.

[B]

Thank you. Yeah, I wanted it to be like, I'm just telling a friend.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

This is what's happened is crazy and.

[A]

It is so crazy and you know, for people that don't really know your life. So, you know, you came from just a really close knit family, middle class, from what part of Florida?

[B]

Tallahassee, Orlando. Yeah.

[A]

And then you eventually went to college and made your way to la. We met at the Groundlings and I was trying to remember. I think I was in the Sunday show already for like six months. And then I think you were in it.

[B]

I think that's.

[A]

And we were in it for about a year together. Yeah. And then I did not go on past 18 months. But you became a regular member, right?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay, good for you. Well, look at where we are now. Okay, so. But we wrote a lot together. We did.

[B]

You used to make me laugh because. Yeah, because you were already in and you knew the ropes. And then we would say, you know, you wanna write together? And you would say, I Need you to show up with three good ideas.

[A]

Did I really say that? Yes.

[B]

And I was like, jesus, okay, well, do my best.

[A]

You know what? That's so funny. Like, how different. Okay, this is gonna be a fun episode. Because there's probably gonna be a lot of different memories that maybe match up and maybe don't. Because for me, I love funny people, but I am a shallow bitch, and I like a pretty friend. And I saw you walk in, and I'm like, now that's a girl I could hang outside of this dorky theater with. Like, I'm like, this girl can go to some fun spots with me. And we did. She is pretty enough. Oh, my gosh.

[B]

We did.

[A]

We did. So.

[B]

Oh, my gosh. Now that you're saying this. I know memories are coming back. Okay, go ahead.

[A]

Yes. So I was like, do you want to go to the Sky Bar with me? What is that hotel now? Is that the Mondrian still?

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

But back in the day, Cindy Crawford's husband, before they were married, Gerber, he owned it. And it was just a hotspot. Cause you were outside, and it was on Sunset.

[B]

It was beautiful. Overlooks the city. And it was really the place.

[A]

And it was very hard to get in. But I had figured out a way to get in, to which I would call this number with an English accent. And I'd say, hello, I'm calling. I've got a few girls coming in from New York from the Ford Modeling Agency that would like to enjoy the Sky Bar. Can I put their names down? And then I'd put our real names down. Cause you have to show IDs. Whatever. And so I picked you up and you were living with. You talk about your fun foursome of friends. Yeah. Your two gay best friends, Paul and Eric and Eddie. Sorry, sorry. Paul and Eddie. And then also your two roommates that you got a couple years into struggling in la.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you come out and you go, can I. I think you said, can I bring them both or something. And I was like, no. Because I did this weird fake thing and I only have the certain names or whatever. And I am telling you, throughout the last. So that would have been 1996. So almost 30 years. It's haunted me that that was so mean. Cause maybe you ran out and you're like, oh, God, really? And I was like, yeah. And I was always like, God, she was so nice. I wonder if she ever just, like, thought that that was super bitchy of me, you know?

[B]

I don't remember that at all.

[A]

Good. See, that's what I'm saying. That's so many times people like, as you get older, you know, and it's why, you know, you gotta give some people some grace and stuff. Cause they're like, no, I was not even thinking of that. Whatever. But, well, I'm good. I'm glad. Because then I saw one of the girls when you came to Chelsea, and she's still working with you, Maria. And she was such a delight.

[B]

Ye.

[A]

She could have come to the Sky Bar. It wouldn't have mattered.

[B]

She probably. You're right, though, because at that time, you really did. Your name had to be on the list. And they were not letting people in. And, you know, I didn't know how the whole system worked. And you were like, no, you gotta do this. And I said, okay. But they were fine with it too. They were like, oh, okay.

[A]

And then do you remember we met some. Two guys and ended up back in their hotel room? Yes, but we did escape with clothes on. Nothing too much happened. What was it? Some guy. You were like, I have to get out of here. Was it a guy sucking your toe or something?

[B]

I think he did want. He did want. Yeah, he was doing something odd. And I was like, this can't be a good Saturday night.

[A]

I need to go.

[B]

But we went. But we, you know, we got there together. So I remember one time when we were at the Sky Bar, these guys ordered a bottle of Dom Perignon. Oh, yes. And that's good. And I was chewing gum, and you put your hand out and you were like, spit out your gum. You are not chewing that. And drinking the champagne at the same time. And I was like, okay.

[A]

See, like, that type of stuff, I like, I don't remember, but I remember us doing some funny, really funny sketches. And you sent me one of, like, remember this On a dm. And it was. We decided. But we did a sketch that our job was to test deodorant. We had to smell people's armpits. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And then. And then, yeah, just. I mean, I don't know how long ago, pretty recently, I came across an article where there were women, you know, smelling people's armpits. And I said to t. I was like, heather, this was us. And then we had the guys, you know, when we did the sketch, they were so sweaty in, like, tank tops. And we would go, oh, actually, I'm smelling some aluminum. Yeah, a little bit of lavender. You know, we were very serious about it. It just really made me laugh.

[A]

Oh, my gosh. So, I mean, you. What's great is, you know, you share those, those struggling times. And one of the articles in your book is that you dated a non theater entertainment person for quite a while.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The investment banker while you were the struggling bartender.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I find that story to be so interesting because there's that moment where you kind of like, oh, what if he hadn't cheated? And what if I had married him? Would I had been satisfied just being a wife and mother and living in the suburbs and doing the country club life?

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like, that's so interesting. Cause I've thought about similar things like that.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I know. I think about that because I was so in love with him at the time and he, you know, was. I don't wanna say normal, but, you know, when you're in this industry, everybody is a little crazy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And if they're not, then they're not gonna make it because it's a crazy industry. Right. But he would always, like I said in the book, we would drive by Starbucks and it would drive him crazy that people are just sitting out there drinking coffee at 2 in the afternoon. He's like, does anybody in this town have a job? They are trying to get one, but they're just having a latte while they're figuring it out. But I used to drive him crazy.

[A]

I used to love to go there. And when you'd have the scripts, paper script that someone would send, the agents would actually have a runner drop it off at your apartment. And then I could go to Starbucks on Montana in Santa Monica and look like I had some major shit going on. Right.

[B]

You'd open your script.

[A]

Yeah, highlight.

[B]

Those were the days. Simpler times.

[A]

But with that guy, I was like, wait a minute. As we were getting to the book, I'm like, I feel like you might have left out a juicier part. Or is that a different point? Was there a story where you found a used condom?

[B]

That's him.

[A]

It was okay.

[B]

I didn't put that part in my book because I thought, I don't know if people want to hear about a used condom.

[A]

Yeah, we do. Because I want to say, didn't you do something kind of like badass about it?

[B]

Well, I, you know, I had a key to his apartment. He had a key to my apartment. I was gonna go see him. We decided we should take one night off because we were together too much. So you go out with your friends, I'll go out with my friends. And then when I went over to his apartment the next Sunday, he wasn't there. But as soon as I walked in, I was like, whoa, something feels weird here. Something weird has happened here. And I called one of my friends and I said, I think Charlie cheated. And she said, why would you even think that? I go, I don't even know. I just feel it. I feel it in this apartment. And she said, well, when he comes back, just say, is there anything you wanna tell me? And I said, okay, that's good. That's good. And then I took a shower. And then when I turned my hair over to put a towel on my wet hair, I could see in his trash can a used condom. And I called her and I said, okay, I know he cheated. I was. I was really devastated. But I packed all of my stuff, I put it in my car and just waited. And you know, he's a golfer and he had. I remember he had like a, I don't know, three iron or something by his fireplace. And he had this huge window that overlooked the beach. And I just sat there.

[A]

That's a sad place to leave when you get into your little crappy car with. Were you into growlings at that point? Did you have wigs in the backyard? No, the thing about with the growlings is it's a lot of wigs.

[B]

A lot of wigs. A lot of wigs.

[A]

There's always five wigs and like a G string in my back, like in a weird outfit.

[B]

Caps.

[A]

Yeah. Your car was like a giant dirty purse.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And it was a red Toyota Tercel, but I had no air conditioner.

[A]

I had a red Celica. Okay, continue.

[B]

But I kept looking at that window and I was like, gosh, I wish I was one of those people that would just. I really wanted to smash his friggin picture window. But then, you know, I kept thinking.

[A]

Good that you didn't.

[B]

I know, because, well, that would have.

[A]

Made the news during the. Yeah. What a crazy bitch you are.

[B]

I would, but it was like, oh, I see how people. I see how, like, somebody could just be so hopped up on adrenaline to do something like that. Then I thought, well, then he'll have a shattered window, and then how is he gonna fix it? And that's a lot of money. And, you know, this is what I'm thinking about while I'm waiting for him to come back.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then he, you know, and then I said, do you want to. Do you want to tell me anything about last night? He's like, no. I said, oh, really? Did nothing interesting happened? No. Really? Is I pretty sure you had sex with someone else. He was like, no, I didn't. I was like, oh my God. I said, well, I'm gonna stop talking to you if you're not gonna be truthful. Cause there's no point in this conversation. I'll just leave. And you know, at that point, like the, you know, the cabinets were open and the drawers were open. Cause I was so mad when I packed all my stuff. And he's looking around like, I don't know what's going on. I know. Huh?

[A]

It's in your period. It's in your period. Why are you crazy? How long you'd been dating him at this point?

[B]

Two years.

[A]

That's very significant.

[B]

He had moved from New York to be. Yeah.

[A]

To be together. That's very significant.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you're at the age where, like, marriage is probably pending.

[B]

I was 29.

[A]

Yeah, like that's the.

[B]

Yeah. And, and I said, and I said, well, okay, well, let's just cut to the chase. You clearly had sex with someone last night. He's like, why would you say that? Because of the used condom that I can see in your trash. And he was like, that's my roommate. I was like, oh, okay, so your roommate had sex with somebody, then walked into your bathroom that you have to go through your bedroom to get to your bathroom to take off his condom. Something he's not tracking. And then I, you know, I guess he, he did finally admit it. And I just left and I said, I never want to see you again. That I talked about in the book. That.

[A]

Yeah, it was hard, really hard.

[B]

It was so hard. It was sad. That I talk about. I was working at that hotel and one of the security guards was this giant 300 pound guy who was very sweet to me. And he, you know, he's walking me to my car and he said, you know, what's going on? You seem so sad. And I said, yeah, I broke up with my boyfriend. He asked me what happened and I told him and he said I could take him out. I was like, what do you mean take him out? He said, yeah, I know a guy that could take him out. And he was dead serious, 100% dead serious. And I said, oh, you, life really.

[A]

Could have gone so many different ways, Cheryl. That's what's fun about the book. Like, literally, if you would have been like, you know what? Yeah, fuck him.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Now I'm like, cheryl, it's me, Heather Tap on the phone. This is where we're doing the interviews. Now you're still. There's a Glass.

[B]

And we're putting our hands up to touch each other.

[A]

You're doing, you know, your 30 years.

[B]

Yeah. And then I said, no, I definitely do not want you to do that, but thank you. And he said, okay, where does he work? And tell me his full name. And I said, why? He said, because I'll just wait for him in the parking lot and take out his knee with a crowbar. I was like, oh, my God, that is so nice of you, but I'm gonna say no. I will never tell you his name or where he worked.

[A]

Yeah. That's amazing. The other fun. There's so many fun stories, but the other things of things that I didn't know was the $2,000 pyramid scheme.

[B]

Do you remember that time in.

[A]

Yes, I do. Because actually, my husband, when we watched a documentary in the last few years that was about the beach thing where this woman was murdered. They didn't know if it was her estranged husband or if it was someone pissed about that pyramid scheme.

[B]

Pyramid scheme.

[A]

It was a pyramid scheme where, in a nutshell, you put in $2,000, and then you get other people to it. Other people to. And then eventually you can walk away with, like, $60,000. But just like any pyramid scheme, whether you're selling clothing or whatever, when everybody in the neighborhood has done it, there's no fresh meat.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And then the bot People at the bottom are just out two grand because they don't. And they don't have the new. They don't have new people, but they don't have wealthy enough people to tap into. They don't have the relatives and all that stuff.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, I mean. Yeah. And so your friends did well with it.

[B]

Yes. They went through a few times, Paul and Eddie. And I was so. This was after, you know, cheating Charlie. And I was so down. So down. I was just like. I had no joy in my life. And my sister Becky, who is still, you know, is in Florida, she was talking to me. And the only time I would sort of come alive is when I would talk about the pyramid scheme. Because I was watching them, and it was so exciting. I mean, people would dress up, they'd go to.

[A]

Yeah, it's a dinner. Like a house dinner party.

[B]

Right. It was like a warehouse. Was a warehouse. I mean, I think there were different versions of it. Right. Depending on your pyramid.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If you had a classy one or not.

[A]

And I think Peter, my husband, was approached at cues. Remember, cue's the pool hall on Wilshire. Did he do it? If he did, it was one of those things where it was very little money. And he realized, like, this is wrong and this is scheme. But he knew, like, a couple guys that it was getting scary, like their scamming was. And he was just like, I don't want to be part of this. Yeah, but this is before I knew him. But.

[B]

Yeah, Well, I mean, you figure anything that's called a pyramid scheme, they weren't.

[A]

Even trying to call it something else.

[B]

I mean, like, I don't remember any other name for it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It wasn't like, you know, the group or something.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. And so I. So my sister, who had no money, she had no money. To this day, I don't know how she got $2,000 in cash, but she did. And she sent it to me, and I was so excited. Dressed up. Paula Nettie took me to the party. And, you know, it was. It was. You would tap somebody on the shoulder, and then you go into a little private part of the room, and you give them the $200,000 cash. I mean, 200,000. 2,000. And then that would get you started on your pyramid scheme. But then mine stalled because I was not good at it. I'm not. You know, people be like, well, should I borrow money from my mom? And I'd say, no, Jesus, no.

[A]

But that's what you're supposed to do. If you want to be successful, that's.

[B]

What you're supposed to do.

[A]

You have to just, like a Scientology or whatever. Max out every credit card. Do whatever it takes, because in the end, it's all going to work out.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I didn't have a good hustle. I was just like, no, this is. It's not gonna end well. You definitely shouldn't do this.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And even Paul and Eddie said, yeah, we're not gonna join your pyramid. You're terrible at this.

[A]

We've got our own thing going.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. That's amazing. So then that was before the Groundlings, before you got to the performing part of the Groundlings. And then I remember when. You know, this is. We were friends before there was Instagram and Facebook and all that stuff. So we were, like, on the phone talking. Friends.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it would be so stressful when you'd find out how many scenes you were gonna be in on Sunday. And then we'd all, like, bitch and complain about it and talk about, like, why did that one get in? And who's da da da da? And one of the things was. And you talk about it in the book, that really, it was such a great showcase. And you know, back in those days, people, we didn't. We couldn't just do really great TikToks or. Or send a video of us doing standup to an agent.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like, they had to be there.

[B]

They had to be there to come.

[A]

On, you know, a Sunday at 5 o'. Clock. And so there'd be times where they'd be like, oh, my gosh, you know, I've got an agent coming. And you were like, b, can I get one more bit? You know, because It'd be like 18 scenes and then other people would be like, well, I want to shine. And maybe that agent would pick me. And that did happen to me. It was in standup. In standup, I paid $64 for every all these agents to come. It was like the final thing if they were going to sign me or not. And right before I went on was this really funny guy who's a friend of mine. And he did well. And so right after he went on, they called him over to sit at the booth and talked to him the whole time while I was on stage. And then they signed him.

[B]

That's so awesome.

[A]

There were just so many stories like that. But you had a successful story because you were on stage doing a really funny bit that you also wrote.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the casting person saw you that was looking to cast the wife of Larry David.

[B]

Yes, yes.

[A]

Yeah. And that, that was amazing. And that was just what people don't know. That was just like a one hour, like, special to kind of.

[B]

Right. Curb youb Enthusiasm started out. Yeah, it was a one hour special. Like a standup. Doing a one hour special of standup.

[A]

Now I remember that was so funny where he says he's gonna do it. And then the whole thing was at the end, he's like, what the fuck am I doing? I don't have. I'm not doing this. It was so. To me, as a standup, I thought it was the most brilliant, funny thing. And then to see you in it. And I remember I called you like, I remember where I was when I called you and I was like, oh, my God, congratulations. You were so great in that.

[B]

And.

[A]

And I remember you were like. And I go. And this is tacky. I don't know if I asked you or if you told me, but you told me what you got paid.

[B]

Yeah, I got nothing. I don't even remember what I do. You do?

[A]

Can I just say it?

[B]

I don't see why not.

[A]

Seven thousand.

[B]

Yeah, okay. Yeah, that sounds great.

[A]

Because I remember, I go, oh, that's how much they're getting at SNL per week. I knew how much they were getting. First year, it was 7,000 a week. I like, remember weird stuff. So anyway, and then. I think you told me then. But here's the secret, Heather. They're gonna make it a series.

[B]

Yeah, I had.

[A]

That's so exciting.

[B]

Yeah. Because when I did that, when I was special, I asked my agent, I said, is it possible that this would turn into a show? And he's like, no. I said, okay, that's fair. And then when I was at the Groundlings, somebody and I don't remember who, you know, a writer or producer or somebody came up and said, oh, yeah, I hear they're gonna make it into a series. I said, oh, that's great. I haven't heard that. Nobody's told me. So I'm just waiting. Waiting for the call. Yeah, always waiting for the call.

[A]

And so he calls you and he says, okay, it's gonna be made into a series. And obviously you're thrilled. That is all of our dreams.

[B]

It's your dream.

[A]

All of our dreams was to get a television series.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That you had a place to go, that you had a regular paycheck and that you could do your thing. That's all we ever wanted in that 99 person.

[B]

That's a dream.

[A]

That is only 99 people could even sit in that place. And there was 18 of us in Sunday Show. We couldn't sell it out.

[B]

It's like our friends were like, I saw it last week and the week before. Can I have a break? No.

[A]

But I would go to the show. I went to the Sky Bar one night. I don't know if you're with me or not. And I met Vince Vaughn.

[B]

I remember.

[A]

And he did come.

[B]

I know.

[A]

And I couldn't believe he was there. I was like, yeah, come. And he was, like, really interested in it, because he was. Obviously. And then all of a sudden, we're in between scenes, and I'm backstage and one of the main company members comes in the back with our green room is. Or whatever, our dressing room. And he's like, oh, that guy from Swingers is upstairs.

[B]

I'm like, oh, you didn't know he was gonna be there? I just.

[A]

I didn't know that he would come.

[B]

Put it out there.

[A]

I called. I mean, I gave him. I said, I'm gonna be there. Whatever, tomorrow night. And then, like. And then we, like, went on a few dates and made out with him and stuff.

[B]

I know. I remember that from your book.

[A]

Oh, I love. I remember that from reading my book.

[B]

I loved your book, Iver Blue Balls and stuff.

[A]

I love reading all of my friends books. I can't imagine a friend, even if you're not close, writing a book and you don't bother to read it. Like, how are you not so fucking curious?

[B]

Oh my God, Heather, when you wrote about the marching band, the marching band uniform in the closet and you freaked out. Cause you were like, you were in the marching band.

[A]

A guy I was dating. Yeah.

[B]

That made me laugh so hard. I was like, only Heather is mad.

[A]

That he was in the marching band because it's not cool.

[B]

And he didn't tell you, like you didn't even have a chance to reject him on that, on that alone. You were in too deep by the time you learned it. And it was like, ah. I didn't even, I didn't even get to tell you no, because you were.

[A]

In the marching band.

[B]

Oh God.

[A]

And so, I mean, Curb Ridiculous was such a great show. And also, I wanna say, not to belittle the work of it, but what a great, honestly, easy job in that you are improving. You're not memorizing your lines, you're not doing a million takes. Like when I guest starred on Reno911, I felt the same way. And then when we did after Lately, which was modeled kind of after Reno 911, curb of like, you know, or the Officer. Well, the Office is scripted, but more like a Curb was. Yeah, you do it a few times and that's it. And you can improv and I mean.

[B]

Yeah, it was fun. No, Susie Essman and I used to always look at each other and say, my God, this is the best job anybody could ever have. No lines to memorize. I mean, yeah, usually when you're working, you have really early calls and you're up all night, just like, I've gotta get these lines down. I mean even, you know, I remember a lot of time just sitting in traffic, just going over my lines, going over my lines. But yes, Curb was all improvised. So even for the first three seasons, I didn't get to look at the story outlines. Larry would write a three to five page story outline, but he didn't want me to see them. So I would, when I would get to work, I would say, can anybody tell me what this show is about? And they'd say, no, you'll find out. Larry will tell you what he wants you to know. Like, okay.

[A]

And then in it, you know, you guys get divorced.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I was that. Because in his Real life. He got divorced. Like, why did that divorce happen?

[B]

I think he, you know, he told me that he wanted to do stories about dating.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

Yeah. So, yeah, I remember that call too, because he called me. He's like, well, you know, I've got some good news and bad news. Mostly bad news for you. And I was like, great. He said, you know, we are gonna do another season, but you're not gonna be in it at all.

[A]

So you weren't in that season at all?

[B]

No, there was one season I wasn't in when they went to New York and I said, okay, you know, I mean, I was doing other things. Yeah, you're getting.

[A]

You got a bunch of movies.

[B]

Yeah, I did movies. I did.

[A]

You did rv?

[B]

Yeah. Waitress.

[A]

Yeah, you were getting a lot. Now, were those movies. Because now you're established name, were they being offered or did you still have to read an audition?

[B]

They were being offered, but I had to meet, you know, meet and talk to the director to see if. And you know, you have to talk about the script in a knowledgeable way.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, talk about how you see your character and. But completely different. Right. Than. Auditioning is so hard, isn't it?

[A]

Oh, I'm a horrible auditioner. I one time heard that people were doing beta blockers so their nerves would, like, I'd get so, like. And it's so much about, like, getting ready, driving over there. And like, I really didn't totally memorize, and I. Because I. Some acting teacher told me not to. Wrong. Memorize it. Know it inside and out.

[B]

Yeah. And you can still hold the script. But.

[A]

Yeah, but.

[B]

Yeah, but deep. Memorize it.

[A]

It's so much better. Yeah. And so. And then like, when you'd see your friends in the waiting room, and I always remember being like, oh, isn't that nice that those two girls are so, like, classy and they realize, like, it's not my part if you get it. It's not in God's plan. Cause I'm like, fuck, I want it. Or when the casting director would come out and hug the queen. One of them, they know each other.

[B]

Only one of them, no way back. And they're laughing and they're like, I'm.

[A]

Coming to your birthday on Saturday.

[B]

No, you're not.

[A]

And I'm like, oh, I know.

[B]

No, I remember Jennifer Coolidge. We were both auditioning for. That's how long ago it was. Right. What was it? Something around the sun.

[A]

Oh, with the aliens. Yeah, yeah. With Kristen.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Can't remember the name.

[A]

Third Rock. From the Sun. Yeah. So it was a guest role.

[B]

Yeah, it was a guest role. And when I got there, I see Jennifer Coolidge, who's amazing, right? And she's. She's literally clipping in hair extensions while she's talking to me before she goes in. And she said, what is going on here? I said, what do you mean? She goes, oh, all the. You know, all the girls are just, like, looking at their scripts. And I said, well, you know, it's an audition. A lot of people are wanting. Want to get their line. She's like, I guess I should have. Yeah, maybe I should have memorize it or something. And she went in and she's still clipping in her. She doesn't seem to have a care in the world, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

She goes in and it was on the other side of the door. So you could hear if they laughed. You could hear it, but you couldn't hear what they were saying, but you could hear it. They laughed. She went in. It seemed like they laughed from the moment she went in to the moment she left. And the rest of us are looking at each other like, do you have the same. Yeah, we all have the same scripters. Hers just really funny. And she got the part. And then later, when I saw her at the Groundlings, I said, what was your take on the script? Because they were laughing so hard. And I did not, you know, it wasn't. That didn't seem that funny. She said, well, when I went in, they said, oh, we've been dying to work with you for 10 years. And I said, you can go fuck yourselves. You've had 10 years to call me. And she said they laughed and laughed and she got the part. That's also really good, you know, But.

[A]

I also had such an anxiety about, like, thinking that if I did anything wrong, it would ruin. I know it would ruin. And I'm like. And then I realized later on, and I always tell people this with advice or whatever, I'm like, just know that if you go out for any kind of job, acting, whatever, any kind of date, the other person wants it to be you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They don't want to continue the search. That's not fun.

[B]

Yes. That is important to remember.

[A]

So I think so many times people walk in thinking the world is against them somehow. Yeah.

[B]

The casting director, or like, you're saying, if you're going to interview for a job, they want you to be so great because they want you to walk out and say, wow, we just found that person.

[A]

Right? Yeah.

[B]

But for a long time, you're right. I felt like that too.

[A]

There's so much self doubt.

[B]

Yeah. Where you feel like I have to go prove myself and they probably don't want me, but I have to go talk them into it. And that's not really the case. People want, People want to like you. They're the ones that called you in.

[A]

Yes. I also remember Jennifer said to me, Jennifer Coolidge, she goes, if the part says. Because we would get those breakdowns and you could read them, the part says attractive, I can do it. If it says very attractive. No, she goes, but if it says character looking, then I'm better looking than the character. Then I get the. Then I really get the part. Cause I'm just a little bit cuter than what they were expecting. But I can be funny.

[B]

Oh my gosh.

[A]

Yeah. She's so great.

[B]

Yeah, she's really so talented. But also her attitude is fantastic.

[A]

Such a good attitude. Yeah. I remember I, we talked on the phone and during her height of the white lotus, and I couldn't believe, like she answered my DM and we talked because it had been years, you know, but when I didn't make the main company, she's. The night before I realized I didn't make the main company is who I had a conversation with. And she was like, let me tell you, Heather, sometimes people get in this company and they stay and they become fucking freaks. She's like, so if you don't get it, just know you're in great company. Like you're in great. Cause it could be really comfortable, you know?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When did you. Cause I don't know the answer to this. When did you. And I've explained growlings to people, but it's 30 spots. And if you. Of those 30 spots, you can continue to perform on stage in the Friday and Saturday long run show. If you give that spot up, you could still come back and teach. Do a Thursday, but you can't be in that. So people that felt it was very important that they have that showcase sometimes held on to it way longer. Like they're on snl, snl, they're on a WB sitcom, they're on a bus.

[B]

Yeah. And you're like, you were like, you can look up a spot up for this purpose for somebody coming in.

[A]

Yeah. So how did you decide? Like, okay, well, I think my career's in a good enough spot that I can give up the bro.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, when Curb. I got Curb when I, I think I was in the Sunday company, maybe. Maybe the Sunday company and. But you know, hadn't come out. I don't even know if I had shot it yet, but. So when I got into the main company, I was shooting Curb, but Curb was only shooting 10 episodes. And Larry said, this is. We're only doing one season. You know, nobody needs to get excited. So, I mean, so him.

[A]

Right? Yeah.

[B]

So I did the first. I think I did. I stayed in at least for a year. And then when Curb. It was clear that we were gonna do another season, and the show was, you know, I would say critically acclaimed. You know, it was getting attention and a Golden Globe and, you know, it was clear that it was on a path. That's when I. I didn't stay in the main company for very long. Cause I. That's when I stepped down.

[A]

Yeah, because you're a classy lady and you care about others, and you're like, I don't need this platform.

[B]

But, you know, it's. You work so hard to get there. You work so hard to get there that you don't want to give it up. And there's nothing. Nothing's for sure.

[A]

Nothing's for sure. But that. Growlings, you can stay until you're 90. So you had Lisa Kudrow as a teacher?

[B]

I did. My teacher.

[A]

I had her for intermediate. You did, yeah.

[B]

Did you love her?

[A]

I loved her. And it was. And funny story about that, which I've told on the show before. Whatever. Cheryl hasn't heard it anymore. Quickly. So she was the teacher. We had a lot of substitutes because she was on Mad about you as the waitress. And then she said, I'm gonna step down from the main company. And I was like, why? And she goes, well, I got this pilot. And I was like, honey, a lot of pilots don't get picked up. I go, what's even about? She's like, it's about six friends living in New York. And I just remember. I just imagined, like, heard a bunch of people, like, on a subway. And I'm like, this sounds awful. She goes. I go, I don't know. Like, you sure you want to do this? You know, at the time, she was only like, 31. And I go. And she goes, well, it's following Seinfeld. And I go, okay, you know what? I'll pray for you.

[B]

Good luck with that little project.

[A]

You gotta bet on yourself. You gotta have the confidence of yourself.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

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[B]

I would say yes. He wasn't my manager for a long time, but he was very helpful in guiding me and saying, Curb youb Enthusiasm is very specific show, and you should. You know, you have a lot of time off in between seasons, so you should be going in for films. And even if you can't do another TV show, because at that point, I couldn't because of Curb, you should be doing other things. And my agent at the time, I remember him saying this. He said. And I said that to my agent. I wasn't with a big agency then.

[A]

Still, even though you're in Curb was it. No one was trying to poach you.

[B]

They were, but I said, no, I want to stay with this agent.

[A]

I want to be loyal because you're a classy lady.

[B]

And I said, I would like to go and do films in between. And he said, that's not really how it works. He's like, you're on tv and that doesn't happen. I said, and at the time, I remember Kelsey Grammer had just done a film. I said, kelsey Grammer just did a film? And he said, you're no Kelsey Grammer. And then I would go home and tell Paul, and his brain would explode. He was like, oh, my God, now I'm gonna have to call the agent. So he did a lot of work where he would call the agent or he would. If he knew about a project, he, you know, would say, oh, well, maybe you should look at Cheryl for this project. You know, so after.

[A]

Yeah. But going back to that agent thing, I always remember Kim Kardashian had said she had a publicist, and this is a long time ago, and. Right. I don't even know if the show had come out or whatever. And she's like, I want to be, like, on the COVID of magazines one day. And the publicist said, oh, honey, you're never gonna be on a cover of a magazine. We'll try to get you on the red carpet asking people questions. And luckily, she had the confidence to be like, well, then this isn't the person that should be representing me. And it's like, your dreams have to be bigger than everyone else's.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so many times we do, like, you know, even with the Sunny Company, I didn't realize I would manifest stuff. And you clearly, in your book, you're manifesting things throughout your life kind of without knowing what that was. And same with me, because the Secret hadn't come out. But I remember going to the crowd.

[B]

The Secret, and everybody read the Truth.

[A]

It changed my life. It really did. It really did change my life.

[B]

How did it change your life?

[A]

Because I was at home with my children.

[B]

Well, does everybody know what the Secret is?

[A]

The Secret was a book that came out that was truly about manifestation and.

[B]

Like, you know, philosophical.

[A]

Believe it. Some people would, you know, make boards and cut out magazines of like, I want to go to Hawaii next year. Here's a check for $1,000.

[B]

Or you see yourself doing it.

[A]

Jim Carrey has a classic story of where he wrote himself a $10 million check and he put a date on it. And literally, like, weeks before that date, he was offered a movie for $10 million. But he'd written it, like, 20 years prior, like, just things like that. And so I was with my kids, and I was still going out for little auditions and things like that. And I hadn't done standup in many years. I lived in Woodland Hills. I was just telling my son this, and I realized this later. I never lived in la. I never lived where the agents and the people were moving and shaking. And I kind of realized in the last year, oh, I wonder if I had gone to those schools and seen the parents, would I just be top of mind? Cause sometimes you just see someone, you know, and you're like, that's who I need. Like, I remember I was at a dinner with Tresales Ross. We had our first show together, Lyricist Lounge, and she took me to this cool restaurant on 3rd Street. And then she called me to tell me she got girlfriends. And she goes, you know, Heather, how I got that? The writer producer walked in and saw me having dinner with you and was like, that's Joan.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And so I'm like. But then all these years later, I'm like, I wouldn't have built this.

[B]

Right. You wouldn't have.

[A]

This is a great situation, and I love it. And I'm not. I'm not jealous of anything that I see anymore. Like, I'm not. There was a time when I'd be like, oh, like, I wish I was on a sitcom. And then my life took away, where I'm like, no, I'm very, very satisfied. But, like, those kind of things. But getting back to the secret. So my friend dropped it off, like, on my doorstep, this dvd. And I watched it, and I was like, oh, if you just. That's it. And then, like, literally, I went back to doing standup. And then, like, six months later, I was working on Chelsea. And then from there. Cause I also knew I was getting. I was like, 37. I'm like, if I don't get a regular TV show now, if I wait, like, another five years, it's gonna be too hard to, like. I got it, and it was hard. And I have a lot of guilt about not being home with my kids.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Your daughter was born when you were, like, 39.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And was there ever. How did you maneuver when you were gone, like, on a scene or whatnot?

[B]

Yeah, it was hard. And, I mean, I would. It was easier when she was little because when I did rv, I just brought her with me. I did a movie called the grand and brought her with me. But, you know, she had a great nanny who would bring her to my trailer for lunch, you know, and then, yeah, when I was on location, I would have, you know, have. Have someone fly out with her. But it is hard when you. When you look back. And it was hard even at the time, because you as a mother, you kept thinking, am I. Am I doing the right thing? But also, you know, work brought me so much happiness, and it made me a happy, full person. So I would have to. I was always balancing both of those things because I. I wanted her to see, you know, this is what your life can be. You can have success, and you can. You can make your dreams come true. And I wanted to model that for her. And at the same time, there were times when, you know, where I wasn't there for Mother's Day or.

[A]

Yeah, I missed a Mother's Day.

[B]

Yeah, it's hard.

[A]

It's really hard. I remember being on a. Doing, like, five shows, like, in Phoenix or something, and it was a great deal. Cause they were like, it's Mother's Day weekend. Like, let's listen to a funny mother. Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I just remember I, like, went down, and there was all these people having Mother's Day brunch at the hotel, and I was just like, you know, but. Yeah, but this is what I chose. This is what I wanted. My husband was supportive of it, and I know the kids. It's not like, my sons today are.

[B]

Like, it's Mother's Day. I cannot wait to wait on you hand and foot all day. Exactly.

[A]

Yeah. But it is. It is such A. You know, it is a challenge, and you always kind of go, like, what is the right thing? And, you know, you can't have it all. You can have it most. You cannot have it all. Like, in my opinion, like, you just. Something's gonna give, right?

[B]

Because would you be happy just being home all the time? And, you know, one might be, like, if I wasn't driven, I always knew I wanted to be an actor, so that was in me, you know? But when I talk to my daughter, who's grown now, she really wants to be a mother, so she. She talks about it. Like I talked about being an actor, you know? But when. So it's interesting because there are definitely some people who. That they're not. If they. If they're home all the time, they're not sitting there going, thinking, ah, I wonder if I could have made that other thing happen, too.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And.

[A]

Yeah, that's why. Yeah, exactly. I. You know, in talking about when you're dating the Charlie guy, when I was reading that, I'm like, I dated some people that I was like, oh, I wonder if I would have just gone down the. You know, married the Newport guy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm like, there's no way that family. Him would have been like, oh, your wife's going down to the improv again. Like, what a fucking loser. Like, when is she gonna make any money at this?

[B]

Like, you needed.

[A]

Like, so whoever. I was gonna cheat. Like, even with my husband, I had boyfriends that were like, I mean, do you ever get any of these auditions? I was like, no, I don't. I never book anything. I just like going on them.

[B]

Why do you keep doing it?

[A]

Why do you keep doing it?

[B]

Charlie? Yeah, he would. You know, he'd be like, I don't. Why would you do a play for free? Yeah, that's how you do it. Cause I love acting. It's like, yeah, but it doesn't pay.

[A]

I'm like, I'll keep doing it and love it and the excitement of it until I don't love it anymore. Like, and then if I feel like, yeah, and so, yeah, I was always doing it. When I was doing real estate, when I was doing whatever, I was always. Always had it on. If I wasn't doing standup, I was still, like, auditioning and booking enough stuff to, like, get things. And so I find that, like, you know, so interesting. And then as being a mom and the other part that I thought was so brave in your book of, like, the idea of why you didn't want to have a Second child. Can you kind of speak on that? Because I think it's, like, it's kind.

[B]

Of embarrassing to admit.

[A]

No, I don't think it is. I think it's really interesting.

[B]

Well, when I had my daughter, Kat Katherine, I was, I fell in love with her from the moment I saw her face. And I was, I was just like, nobody else in the world matters. And I just, I mean, to this day, you know, I see her and I just. Oh, my heart. It just makes me happy. She brings me so much joy, and I love her so much. So when she was little, you know, I thought about having another child, and I thought, I'm not gonna like them because I love her so much.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

All I wanted to do was, even when she was sleeping, I would take pictures of her because this is her with her eyes closed. This is her sleeping, you know, and I would watch her. And then I would think, if I had another baby, I'm going to get stuck with the baby.

[A]

Well, also, I mean, she looks, I'm going to go to her. She looks so much like you. She's gorgeous.

[B]

She's very beautiful. I know.

[A]

Blue eyes, big. And I remember when I met her, because you invited me to, like, a New Year's Eve party at York House in Brentwood, like, a very casual one. I was pregnant with my second son, so she was like two. I remember seeing her and I was like, oh, my God, that Cheryl's like, little. Big smile. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's stunning.

[B]

Yeah. And so I, I thought, oh, I, I, I'm not falling for this, because if I have a, if I have a baby, then Paul will get to hang out with Kat, and I'm going to be stuck with a baby I don't like as much as Cat. And then, you know, but I would think about it, think, I know other people do it. You know, other people have more than one child. I don't know how they do it.

[A]

You know, it is weird. And I remember when I gave birth to my second son, who I love very much, Brandon, but I remember having weird thoughts going, if I had to choose one, I know this one so much better. The one that's two and a half.

[B]

And I already like them.

[A]

Yeah. And I was just like. But then. And I remember even Khloe Kardashian revealed that, you know, she carried one and had to have a surrogate carry the boy. And she was very honest about this connection, and she thought it was the surrogate thing. And I said, oh, I wish she knows it's not that it's that, you know, the older one.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the love of the relationship will come, and it's. And then, you know, and then you have that younger one that's, like, into cuddling a lot longer than the older one. Like, it's all. But I think that, you know, what's great about our world and women today is that you really can make those choices for what's right for you. And you shouldn't be sucked into. Well, your parents want you to have two or whatever. And with your schedule and everything. And one is always easier. And one girl, I think, is the easiest.

[B]

Yeah. She liked to color. And then I would be around moms with little boys.

[A]

It's a whole different thing.

[B]

Jumping on the couches and. But then, like I said, like I talk about in my book, then when I met Bobby, and Bobby had six kids already, and I just love them. I love them. And I realize, oh, right, this is what happens. You don't have the same. You're never gonna have the same relationship with each child. It's so different.

[A]

It's so different. And so many times, you know, people are like, oh, she was the favorite, or whatever. It's like, I think that it's. Sometimes if it's. Your personality just aligns better with one. Sometimes you're too much like the child.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you might butt heads a little bit or, you know. Or you're also, you know, so much like that you get along or whatever it is. But the love, I believe, is the same.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's just sometimes. Yeah. The relationship's a little different. And also in different stages of life.

[B]

Right.

[A]

A one child could be the easiest teenager ever. And then maybe they struggle in their 20s or vice versa. Like, there's no. Oh, get past the toddler years. You know, like, years for some kids might be the easiest. I don't know. I don't know what your kid's gonna be like in fourth grade. Like, you know, and so.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So.

[B]

Yeah. So when I had. When I had step kids.

[A]

They're also cute.

[B]

No, they're. So then you have.

[A]

I didn't realize you have grandchildren.

[B]

I do.

[A]

How great is that? I. It's really like people don't realize the joy of being. Marrying someone that's maybe a little older or later in life, whether you have kids or not. Even if you're a woman who never had kids. You can be hot step grandma.

[B]

I am hot step grandma. I'm Cher Bear. Cause just like my mom.

[A]

That's cute.

[B]

I talk about my mom in the book because her name is Rosemary. And when she became a grandmother, she didn't want to be called grandma. So we called her Cracklin Rosie. And you know, for so many years, I thought, that's so ridiculous. Yeah, she doesn't want to be called Grandma. And then, you know, I have these. My step. Grandkids. Grandkids. It's like, just call me Share Bear.

[A]

Don't you dare call me grandmother. Speaking of which, you did a movie, the mom's. What was it called?

[B]

Bad Mom's Christmas.

[A]

Bad Mom. And I was like, why is Cheryl playing the mother of Kristen Bell? Yeah. And I'm like, I hope they establish that. Like she gave birth at 14.

[B]

I think we did talk about that. I had her when I was very young in my, you know, 18 or 19 or something.

[A]

I always think that must be. That must have been kind of interesting. Like when you got the offer, was that an offer too? Was there any part of that you were like, okay, I don't know that I identify as a grandmother with a daughter of this age. But like, I'm not going to turn down a role. Like, is there anything in. That's like, good news is you got a part. Bad news is you're playing someone that you're not.

[B]

It was a discussion, you know, because it was like I was, you know, talking with the directors that I'm like, is it. Is this. Are people going to believe it? But then if you guys are saying that you want, then you see me as being old enough. So I guess that's all that mattered.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then we did. Yeah, they. They sort of rewrote that part in the script where I was really, really young when I had her.

[A]

Okay, so then what I also love. Before we get to. Here we are getting married to your second husband, Bobby. What I loved is I know you got divorced from Kat's dad. I did not know that you had the nicest divorce, the most pleasant co parenting. I mean, how the hell does that happen? And in Hollywood, like, how who? And you know, you don't talk that much about it, but I don't know how much more you want to tell me. Like, when did you kind of feel like, I don't think this is forever, or did you ever have the discussion before you guys both agreed?

[B]

Oh, yeah, Yeah. I mean, it was, you know, we were married for seven years and I know that there's. He was working a lot. I was, I was working too, but just so really it was Cat. You know, everything was about Cat. And we Just have a different approach in life. You know, He. Paul is intense. He's like. He's great at negotiations. You know, he does contracts and stuff. And he's like, if both sides aren't mad at the end, it wasn't a good negotiation.

[A]

It's like, you know, and people would.

[B]

Come up to me and go, wow, your husband's like, bulldog. And I'd say, oh, I know. So he. And he said he's mellowed out. It still has that intensity, but in a different way. But I was always, you know, oh, I remember one time we were talking about money, you know, and talking about what happens if we don't have enough money for this. And I said something stupid like, well, we'll just plant another money tree. And he's like, I'm trying to have a conversation, you know, and it's like, oh, I know. I'm listening. I'm sorry. And you're right. There are no money trees. Okay, but. So I. My approach is always a little bit lighter, you know, and look on the bright side. Let's focus on the positive. And it was not. It's not a good match that way because we would have a hard time communicating sometimes because it's like, so, you.

[A]

Guys have a good divorce. He actually went on vac. Like, you guys would vacation together with Bobby and you and your daughter. And so you fall in love with Bobby. And, you know, you met him years back at the Waterkeeper event. And then. Which was a big charity, which I did a video. Rachel, your friend, your friend. Best friend. My friend, too. Rachel Harris. I did a little video of it. And then I went to the evening, and then I saw you guys there, and you're like, what are you doing here? And you're just, like, walking through the thing. And I was like, oh, okay, can I go on the. Can I go on the stage? Peter was like, get us on the ski trip. Like, we were watching this whole thing, and there's, like, a celebrity ski trip. And I'm like, I just think they wanted me for, like, the PSA video. I don't know what, but it was all good. But I was. When you got married, I was like, oh, my God, I can't believe that Cheryl is marrying a Kennedy. Because there's so many interesting things about the. Like, the connection of the universe. One was that you loved Carol Burnett more than anybody. Mine was the Joan Rivers, and I met Joan Rivers, too. I would stay up to watch Joan Rivers when she would guest star on Johnny. But you would go in the room to watch Carol Burnett. And because of our friend Julie Welch, whose parents worked on Carol Burnett's show. Carol actually came to the show to.

[B]

Watch to the Sunday Company. She came to the Sunday Company.

[A]

I don't know if I was on there. I don't know if I totally remember that. That might have been a.

[B]

Of fun. You would have remembered, I think, because it was such a big. It was such a big deal. We were like. And remember at the Groundlings, you could peek through a tiny crack, and sometimes you could see somebody in the audience. And I just remember. Yeah. Coming and feeling like, wow, the universe is crazy.

[A]

And then. Do you remember when JFK Jr. Came, too?

[B]

I do.

[A]

I do now in my memory, but I don't know if it's true. He was wearing a beret. Remember when he was wearing berets a lot? I talked to this with. To Carol Radziwell, you know, who was. You know who Carol Radzewell is? So. And she was like, Heather, she's, like, left. She was like, I don't know if he's wearing a beret. I'm like, he would wear a beret shirtless in the streets of New York, like, the way I imagine. Like, I don't remember he was wearing.

[B]

A beret, but he might have been wearing, like, a beanie.

[A]

Like a beanie. Yeah.

[B]

I don't. It would have been. That would be hilarious if he was in a beret at the ground.

[A]

But the connection of Brian Ruff, who was his friend, who was.

[B]

Kevin R. Keff.

[A]

Sorry.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Kevin Ruff, who was his friend, who was an actor but also a lawyer. He's the one who invited him.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And so then to find out, I'm like, this is such a weird thing that Cheryl is now marrying into the Kennedy family. And, like, I'm like, how great is this? Like. Like, this is like. And I remember thinking, like, wow, Cheryl's led a life, like, you know, like, from the. From. You know, from.

[B]

Like, from Tallahassee, Florida.

[A]

Yeah. To that. I'm like, and this is great. You know, he does this great. Who doesn't like water, right?

[B]

Everybody likes clean water.

[A]

Yeah, everyone likes clean water.

[B]

He's mad about that.

[A]

Nobody's mad about clean water. And then when he was running for president, at first, it seemed quite positive for people from both sides being like, this is who I'm gonna go for. Cause I don't like this person. I don't like this person. And I was like, oh, my God. Like, Cheryl might be the first lady. And I was like, I wish you would have kept in touch a little bit better. Because I'm like, I want a fucking invite to the White House. And so I wanna know. Yes, during the summer, the window of where it wasn't Hollywood hating you and your husband, were there some friends that was like, this is fucking cool, Cheryl. This could be a lot of fun for us. Can I spend the night? I mean, like, who was, like, in it and excited? Or was everyone just like, what the hell's going on?

[B]

I mean, most people were like, what the hell's going on? There was hardly anybody who was daydreaming.

[A]

About, you should have kept in touch with this thirsty bitch.

[B]

But people did like to ask me in interviews, you know, because. And. And there was no good answer, right? Because if I said, oh, yeah, I would love to be first lady and dream about picking out the wallpaper or, you know, starting my own foundation or whatever, then it. Then that answer would be like, whoa, somebody's delusional. Yeah. You know what I mean? And if you. That if I said. And the truth was, I really did not sit around thinking about that, because the reality of what would have to happen and the universe aligning for that to happen was so.

[A]

So you never really thought it was a possibility that he could win? Did you act like you were like. I mean, did you have a conversation like, he's doing this, but he's not? Or were you like, hey, Bobby, you do you boo, and I'll be there if it works out? But then in your own head or on the phone to your sister, you're like, this is not gonna ever freaking happen.

[B]

Well, there were. There were. I did feel like it was possible.

[A]

Okay?

[B]

It was. A lot of it was not probable, and mostly because. Because of that, the way that election unfolded. It was.

[A]

I.

[B]

Because when he first. When he first said he was going to run, he was running as a Democrat. And that was before the primaries. So that was. I think he announced in July. And then the primaries were. They started, you know, the next year in January. So usually the primaries, the Democratic primaries, it starts to. After a few primaries, one candidate will start winning, and it's an indicator that this candidate has the most support. And so for me, it was like, okay, let's get to the primaries and see what kind of support you have. So every bit of. Along the way, it was different hurdles that you had to get over. So at that moment, I'm not thinking, well, I can't wait to get to the White House. I'm like, let's get to the primaries and see what happens. But then right before the primaries, word was. And it did happen that they were canceling the primaries and states were just saying, okay, we're going to support Biden.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So then it was clear he had no path as a. He could not win a primary if there were no primaries.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So then he switched to an independent. And to get on the ballot as an independent is so different than if you were a Republican or a Democrat. And I'm probably boring your audience.

[A]

Cause they're like, no, no. You know, in the past. Cause, you know, lived on this earth long. Yeah. There was Perot. There were some that got a little further. But they really. Then they would say, don't vote for the independent because they're never gonna win and you're wasting your vote.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

So.

[B]

Yeah. So. So it was never. It was never that I didn't believe Bobby. I think Bobby would make an amazing president. He's very, very smart. He's a great leader and he's a graceful person. But it was for him to. Yeah. For an independent to win. It just hasn't happened before.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So I wasn't like, packing my bags at the White House. I was like, let's get through April, and then we'll see what May looks like, you know.

[A]

And so then we jump to, you know, when that's it. You know, he has endorsed Trump and all of this, and you get dumped from Hollywood friends. You are. You know. And I was like. It made me sad to, like, see that and read it. Not surprised.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And in. You've been very graceful in talking about. I'm just gonna say it. Tig Notaro, she did a podcast. She said how she could no longer talk to you or have any association with you because you're married to Bobby Kennedy. And you said, could you please. We wanna share our thoughts of where we realize that we're not any. You know, not different people. We can. Whatever it was. And no, I don't want to hear that. I don't wanna hear. I don't wanna be like in my. I don't wanna hear anything that might convince me of otherwise. Of the decision I made, of the path I'm on. Whatever. And that was sad. Cause you guys had a friendship. You had a fun podcast where you talk about documentaries. And I just want to say to that that person did not love you enough to want to be your friend forever. And in Hollywood, you can be very close. And when you're comedians and when you're doing podcasting and the world is listening to a friendship. They get very sad when the friendship ends because they're like, we saw the friendship.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But it still is a working relationship. And sometimes that just happens. I, you know, I've had a friend where I wasn't happy that they were still aligned with somebody that hurt me very much. But I was like, but I love this friend so much.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That there's no way I'm going to let this friend out of my life.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And maybe in a couple years this won't even matter.

[B]

Right. Right.

[A]

But I'm not gonna do something so definitive that they're no longer in my life.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I can't. That must have been like so weird and hard for you.

[B]

It was, it was hard. You know, and it was, I was surprised, you know, and I guess, you know, and then I stopped being surprised. But I was surprised that because I know people are passionate about politics. I know it's very upsetting to some people, no matter who's in office.

[A]

No. But it has changed. I mean, it's crazy.

[B]

People are, people are really, really.

[A]

I mean, I forgot about this until I was doing my makeup this morning. But my aunt Claire Carey, she passed. She was raised a Democrat with my dad. Cause the dad was in the unions. He was a firefighter. And then in the 50s, she was like working as an independent lady. She didn't get married till she was 34 and she married DJ Carey. And DJ Carey came from the Careys, who are a huge Democratic family. She had switched to becoming a Republican during the 50s and she married him and his brother became the governor of New York. And the Kerry friends were probably, if you say it to your husband, he'll know. Several of my cousins that they. All the kids hung out. They went to boarding school together. They knew each other. And she never stopped being a Republican. And all the families knew it. All the families knew it. And she'd laugh about it and it was fine.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I think she voted for her brother in law, but other than that.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And it was like life.

[B]

It wasn't like they didn't. Yeah.

[A]

They didn't not do Christmas together. They did not. It was never, it was kind of, it was sort of interesting and kind of funny and like that was it. And it's like, of course now people are probably screaming. Okay, I get it. But I'm just saying it is interesting that, you know, I know there was a time when either you didn't talk about it or you could agree to disagree and still be friends. And family. Yeah.

[B]

Agree to disagree.

[A]

And there's something maybe with social media, something where it's just so ingrained in you that for certain, a certain population of people, they have decided this. Is this, like a religion on both sides.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And there is nothing that will change their mind, no matter what.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

And they will give up people and da, da, da. Because this. They've gone such. Down such a long path that they can never go. You know what? I was wrong about that.

[B]

Nobody. Nobody will say that.

[A]

Of these types.

[B]

Of these types.

[A]

Other people. Yeah. That's the extreme other people. Yeah. A lot. Most of us will be like, oh, yeah, I did think that. Now I feel differently.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Or that's a good point. Got it.

[B]

I'm gonna think about it. Yeah.

[A]

Like, yeah. And I think that's what's really hard, because you were never that extreme person. You were a Democrat at one point, Independent, you know, so. And he was. When. I'm sure when he. When you got with him, it was perfect.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You're with the Democrat. He's from the cool family, the loved family. Like, who doesn't like water?

[B]

Everybody loves that.

[A]

Yeah. It's like I said, what about the cybertruck? I go, nothing went from so cool to so uncool so quickly. Except for the cybertruck and Bobby Kennedy.

[B]

Bobby. It was a 180. I'm like, oh, oh, okay. This is where we are now. Okay. Yeah.

[A]

And when he said, well, we could fake a separation because he felt so bad because nobody liked you anymore, and you're like, let's not do that. Like, that's.

[B]

But you know what? I. I understand it because I have some friends that I. I don't want people having feelings about my friends being friends with me. You know what I mean? It's like, I don't want to bring anything bad into someone else's life. And I know that's what he. He was. He was watching it all happen. You know, he's watching the podcast end. And. Yeah. I have. I have a few friends that I really. They.

[A]

What do you mean, the podcast end?

[B]

Oh, with Tig. Oh, yes.

[A]

Yes. Okay.

[B]

So. And he knew. Oh, this is happening because of me. Yeah, I am. The people hate me so much. People hate me so much they are starting to hate you. And I feel really bad about it, and I don't want that. I don't want that for you. You know, it was very sweet, but.

[A]

I mean, if anything, when people were like. And in the book, like, you know, yelling at saying, like, you need to tell your husband and how could you be with that man? And blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's like, probably at one point there was an like, well, thank God I have you, Bobby. Like, thank God we have each other. Cause fuck these other people. They obviously weren't real. Real in my life. Do you imagine if you d your husband to go hang out with these other people to like go on a trip to Spain and then it's like, then no, like, this is family and this is this. And it's like, you're right. This too shall pass. Like, who knows where things will be in a couple years. And you said that about time. Like, I wish I could just skip two years ahead. And I've had that in times in my life too. Or like parenting challenges. Like, can I just see where you are at 25 so I can just like stop worrying? Like, I don't know. But you just have to go through it, right?

[B]

You have to go through it. You just have to go through it. And you're right. It was really, it was, it was always. I've always been a very family oriented person. It's always, it's always been.

[A]

No, I always remember that because so close to your sister, like I am. Your parents were at that little New Year's Eve party at the Brentwood house. Like, yeah.

[B]

So I, it was strange when people were, I mean, people still, some people, you know, feel like, oh, you should leave him. Like, why? Because you don't like his politics. Like, that's. Oh, that's not what our marriage is about.

[A]

Yeah. And I mean, with the vaccine thing, you know, I don't know if you know, but I fainted on stage.

[B]

I did see that.

[A]

And I thought, finally, finally I have a viral moment doing standup. And it absolutely did nothing for my career. Everybody just hated me because the left thought I was like a plant for the anti vax. And the right thought I was being disrespectful because I said Jesus loves me the most. Right before I fainted, they thought Jesus came down and flaked me. And I said, I've been Catholic my whole life. Jesus and I are good, whatever. But it was one of those things. But it, I was like, well, maybe this was meant to be because it did add to the discussion.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Didn't help my career at all, but my career is fine. But it didn't. But it was it even then I would do interviews and stuff and they would say, well, what is it? And I go, look, I, I don't know. But I did get the booster two weeks before to the day.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And, and so, and then, you know, and even Chelsea had a situation right before going on stage where she had like a heart thing. And, but you know, she, we, whatever she didn't talk about, I didn't talk about because people were like, just don't talk. Like it's just gonna be banned and you're gonna get in trouble for even discussing it. And the truth is, I don't know. I just know I've never fainted before. I've never fainted, Astro. I'd had every test done. Thank God, I'm fine.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And also I'd say, you know, you don't know how many people felt dizzy but just sat down or were sitting down when they felt dizzy. When I felt dizzy, I was on stage. So there was no way for me.

[B]

To, to grab us.

[A]

You guys, hold on. I know I have two shows and two meet and greets, but I'm seeing dots like, no. So that's why a lot of people, I think you see all those of people feigning because they were on camera. So they weren't addressing the fact they don't feel well.

[B]

Because imagine at the athletes, that was also the problem. I mean, the athletes were out on the field like going 90 miles an hour and then, and then to feel that way. Right. But yeah, and it's so, it's such a, it's so interesting.

[A]

Cause I'm like, so what do people.

[B]

What if you weren't.

[A]

Yeah, what if your experience. Yeah. What if for some people it didn't work out? For others it did. Let's just make sure it's safe going forward. Like, what does it matter? Like, I mean, I had to, I had to show that I was vaccinated to perform at the clubs.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I was fine with that.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I was, I've always been. I never had an issue with anything with my son during the Jenny McCarthy time because he was just a little younger than her son. I was watching the Oprahs and everything and talking about the vaccines and the connection to autism. And the next day my child didn't look me in the eye and he was coming on his 18 month shot. And I was like, oh my God. Oh my God. For six months I was like, I don't know what I'm going to do. I don't know what I'm going to tell this doctor. I don't wake up in the middle of the night. I went to the doctor and I'm like, I don't know what I'm gonna do about this appointment. He's like, what are you talking about? I'm like, I don't know about getting all the shots. He goes, drake got all his shots at one. At one year, guy was like, what? Like, he had like 15 at one time and luckily he was fine. But, like, so what? Like that you spread it out or wait or whatever. And I don't know if people get mad because they feel like in some way maybe they made the wrong choice and therefore it's their fault or they wanna make sure that no matter what, their choice was right. Like, again, like, who cares? Like, who cares?

[B]

Nobody's judging anybody or they shouldn't be.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So that's what is hard to understand, too, about. Why can't we listen to someone's experience.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Without calling them crazy or making it political. You fainting on stage has nothing to do with politics and zero to do with politics. It was a moment in time for you. It was a health moment. And that's it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So there's something about, you know, the vaccine situation that really has people. People want to tell other people how they feel about it. They need to tell other people how they. Not everybody, of course, but how they. One way or the other.

[A]

Right. Or when people say, well, you know, I had an uncle who died of COVID I'm like, yeah, that is really horrible. But why does that matter if your neighbor didn't get it or doctored up a card so that they could work? I don't know. I didn't. You know, it didn't matter to me. I was like, I don't care if you get it or not. I'm getting it because.

[B]

Right. The vaccine.

[A]

For the vaccine. Cause for me, I would go out and when it was before the vaccine, and I'd wake up in the middle of the night and I'd be like, can I still smell my hand lotion? Cause they always said you couldn't smell. So I was like, I want the. I just don't wanna worry about getting it, you know? So I was happy to get it, and I was happy to get the booster, and I was happy to do all the things. And I never even. I was like, whatever. But I also respected people that were like, I'm not doing that. Okay, fine.

[B]

You know, same.

[A]

You know, And I had jokes about it on the other side, too. I'm like, yeah, all these people that are like, I'm not putting a needle in my. And they're like, going to get Botox. Like I'm like, you know, like who cares? Like but again it's whatever your thing, right? So it's just cooler days call for layers that last and quince is my go to for quality essentials that feel cozy, look refined and won't blow your budget. Guys, I'm talking 50 Mongolian cashmere premium denim. Honestly the best pair of jeans I've ever I'm loving it. I also love their luxed outerwear. So I just got an incredible incredible wool coat because I am planning on going to the east coast this fall and I need that chic fabulous coat. And listen, that is an expensive buy but these look designer level and they cost a fraction of the price. And the quality honestly is just as good if not better. I'm absolutely loving. I got a camel colored wool coat. I'm going to look so chic with my jeans and my cashmere sweater. I'm going to have a whole quince look that just screams quiet luxury. Find your fall staples at quince go to quince.com juicy for free shipping on your order and 365 days returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com juicy to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com juicy cooler days call for layers that last and quince is my go to for quality essentials that feel cozy, look refined and won't blow your budget. Guys, I'm talking 50 Mongolian cashmere premium denim. Honestly the best pair of jeans I've ever I'm loving it. I also love their luxed outerwear. So I just got an incredible wool coat because I am planning on going to the east coast this fall and I need that chic fabulous coat. And listen, that is an expensive buy but these look designer level and they cost a fraction of the price. And the quality honestly is just as good if not better. I'm absolutely loving. I got a camel colored wool coat. I'm going to look so chic with my jeans and my cashmere sweater when I have a whole quince look that just screams quiet luxury. Find your fall staples at quints go to quince.com juicy for free shipping on your order and 365 days returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q U I n c e.com juicy to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com juicy I just think that it so that when I saw the View so you go on the view and I'm curious because you've been on the View over the years, I'm sure, promoting a million things. And what was the. Did you know you were going into this situation, or were they hugging you and were sweet? Did they act like it was gonna be more about funny stories like we told earlier in this episode? Or did they. What did they think it was?

[B]

Well, I was told that, you know, they were glad that it was coming on, which was good. And that they. That it wasn't. That they weren't gonna attack me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But then, you know, when I. When I talked to a producer about what the, you know, the segment would look like, it was clear. It was like, oh, okay, they want to talk to you about vaccines. They want to talk to you about Bobby. And it's like, oh, okay, all right. You know, so I. So at that point, I knew, oh, we're not just not going to have a good time. I'm going to field questions about Bobby. And at that point, I felt like, that's okay. Like, bring it on. And it was good timing for me because Bobby's been secretary of HHS for, what, 10 months now and has accomplished a lot of really great things, you know, for. For the health of America. So. So I was. I was glad to talk about it. And even some of the things that even. Even me, even for me, when. Like, when he was. During his Senate hearings while he. While he was getting grilled about being secretary, and they kept saying, you're not a doctor. You are not a doctor. And the first time I heard that, I thought, oh, no, he's not a doctor. This is. Did they not know he's not a doctor?

[A]

Or.

[B]

Why is this so important? Is this usually, like, a surgeon that has this problem, you know, this title. And then now, you know, knowing what I know, most of them are not doctors. Our last secretary was not a doctor, was a politician. A lot of them have been politicians, governors. There was economists. You know how many Democratic secretaries of hhs? Zero. So it's like. But I believed it, too, even during that hearing where I was like, ooh, he's not a doctor. And then I've just been. Like I said, I've been learning so much where it's like, he doesn't need to be a doctor. That's not his role as secretary. So I was sort of. I was ready for those kind of questions and really attacks. They were. Some of them weren't questions. They were just like, your husband's not qualified. It's like, was the economist qualified? Like, so. So when. So I knew Going on that show that they were gonna come at me and, you know, and I really just wanted to try to connect with them and have a conversation about it.

[A]

Do you imagine, though, too, like, if there was a man who was on a show with a bunch of other men and his wife was in some type of powerful position, and they're like, tell your wife she's a dumb bitch. I know that doesn't know anything, and you need to divorce her ass. Otherwise you're kicked out of the club. Like, that would never happen. And it's just so interesting that, you know, women, like, can judge. Like, hey, even if you. You know, it doesn't. Like, you're married to him and you. You know, you do support and obviously believe what he's doing is great. But, like, even if you didn't and just stayed silent during these years or whatever, what is it anyone's business? I know you're gonna change. You're gonna tell your husband of whatever, how old he is. Like, no, you're not. Who's a lawyer who's lived in this life and been around the Kennedy forever.

[B]

Yeah. It's been working so hard. Right.

[A]

And knows about stuff like this and has fought, you know, it's just. Yeah.

[B]

What are you supposed to do? It's gonna hurt people's feelings. They're gonna be mad that you. If you get this job.

[A]

When you guys got in this position in politics and now in the White House, did you have any friends or wayward family members that was like, hey, can you help a third cousin out with some shit? Did you have anybody that was like, oh, cousin Cheryl, she can get us.

[B]

She can pull some string? Yeah, I don't have that. I don't have that. But I do have. You know, it's hard because it's health. I have a lot of people that want to tell me their health situations. So that's hard because it's like, I hear you, and I can help research with you, but I can't do anything. I don't have a doctor I can call for you. I just. It's not. So that's hard, you know, it's not like comedy, where it's like, oh, I wrote a script. Can you give it to Spielberg? It's like, no, but give me the script and I'll. If I run into him, I'll try to give it to him. Yeah, it's so. It's such a, you know, serious situation, that part. But, no, nobody's calling, like, oh, can you get me out of a speeding Ticket. Oh, nobody's now.

[A]

I mean, it's hard to say, like, you know, have you been blackballed or not been asked to do as many things as you would think? Or maybe you're no longer at the top of the list to play the mom and the whatever. Do you, do you have some pretty clear understanding that that might be the case?

[B]

I think.

[A]

You know, it's a hard thing to say.

[B]

It is.

[A]

Because it's an unprovable thing.

[B]

It is.

[A]

You know, it's like when people are like when I was like, I don't know if I was blackballed, but like I never, you know, got no longer. These things weren't happening for me and I just had to accept it because there isn't necessarily a blackball. There's just one person saying no.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

No, I don't want that person here. No, that's not what I want. Or maybe having her on screen will trigger people at home because she's associated to something who's associated to somebody else that the world that half the world hates.

[B]

Right, which is, which is quite possible.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know what I mean? It's like, it's quite possible. I mean, it's, it's especially, I would imagine, if you were, if your spouse is a high profile person that's. Yeah. Some people really love and some people really don't. I mean, maybe you're right. It's like, I don't know. I don't know what people are saying behind, you know, closed doors, but it's quite possible. But also I have people calling me, offering me things and are any of.

[A]

Those people, people that might have been at one time in your position or currently, and they're like, don't let this bother you. Like, I've been there. I wasn't getting nominated for the things. I was blackballed at one time. I was, you know, on that side and had to keep it a secret.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm gonna say yes to that.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I mean, I was talking to somebody who very successful is, you know, producing more very successful things and said, yeah, I mean, I basically moved out of LA because people are so mad.

[A]

So was this person still in the closet or no. The closet of their politics?

[B]

I don't think so, but I think they've moved to a place where that doesn't come first. Right. So now this person has moved to literally a different city where, you know, people are like, oh, what are you making next? What are you shooting next? And it's not, I don't Even I don't think politics comes into it at all. I mean, I've never been a person to ask anybody about their politics. I don't know what. I have never asked somebody who they voted for.

[A]

The first time I realized and I had no idea. I was so naive or whatever is. I was guest starring on something. It might have been. I can't remember what it was. I didn't have that many guest stars, so whatever. And I just remember it was like the third day of the week long thing and Bush had won or something was going on. I think that was the time we didn't know if it was gonna be Bush or Gore. It like lasted weeks or whatever. And that's when I was like, oh, everybody feels one way.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And interesting. Like everybody feels one way and is all voicing that one way. And if anyone didn't feel that way, I, you know. Oh, okay, you wouldn't say it. Yeah, don't say it because it can be interpreted and it can, you know, stick with you forever. And now you have like this. So I guess instead of a scarlet letter A, it's a scarlet letter R or something. I don't know. And then it's just. And then even you're like, no, that's not true. That's not the way I feel or whatever. And it's like they're just trying to like, you know, it's like a witch hunt, literally, like a salo. It's like, what does it matter? And like what do you care? And. And then sometimes it's like, oh, that person has the luxury to say what they want, what they feel.

[B]

Yeah. Doesn't that right?

[A]

That could be fun.

[B]

Right?

[A]

That could be fun to have the luxury to say what I. And just know that you're so above it. It doesn't matter. But I kind of feel like with you now, you know, obviously you love acting. It's something you've dreamt and wanted to do your whole life and it took a long time to get there. You know, first 10 years here was not know, a success story. So it's not like overnight you, you know, showed up. But is there a part of you at all that's just like, oh, well, fuck you. Like, then, you know what? I'll take a little break from it and I'm gonna enjoy this part of my life and like, it'll all be there when I come back.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And if. Or not. Or I'll do. Or I'll produce my own things or like, is there any of that? Like. Cause You've already accomplished so much. You've been to all the award shows, you've been in the movies, you've been in the things.

[B]

So, like, yeah, there was a time when I wasn't ready for change. I didn't want things to change. Like you said, I worked really hard. I was very focused on my career, and I've worked with great people. I've done, you know, really fun projects. And I was not ready for that to change. And so when Bobby started running, I was like, I don't know if I'm. This is gonna change everything. I don't know how. I don't know if I'm ready. And I talk about that in the book too.

[A]

Right.

[B]

There are moments in your life where you're like, I'm just not ready for what's about to happen. Can I have a minute? And the universe says, no, you can't. And so it's a lot of self reflection and just saying, okay, change is coming. So you either embrace it or you're gonna be really unhappy. You're just gonna always be unhappy because you don't know what. You don't know how it's gonna work out. But odds are it is not gonna work out the way you think. I mean, I don't know one person who thinks that's gonna work out exactly this way and then it unfolds that way. So I'm at a place now where, yeah, I'm completely fine with however it works out. You know what I mean? It will. I'm producing a film with my ex husband.

[A]

Good.

[B]

And we're having a lot of fun doing it. And whatever is going to unfold is going to unfold. And you're right, I have. I've done a lot of things that I dreamed of doing, so that's great. So I don't feel like, oh, my God, I never had the chance to do that one thing. So, you know, if people feel like. And I don't think they do, I'm sure there are individuals that feel like, you know, I hope she never works again in her life.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's like, I will be okay.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I'm okay. Like, I have a really fun life. I always have. Even when I didn't have an acting job, even when I was, you know, 25 and struggling.

[A]

I mean, we have a lot of that in common. Is that I've enjoyed the journey the whole way.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And, you know, and when I've been sad, I'm grateful that I knew the reason why.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I didn't Suffer from any kind of, like, you know, mental depression or whatever.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it was just very. Get up and go and be positive and, like, laugh about it. And I think that's, like, what we connected. And you're very spiritual, and you could see in the. In the book and like I said, a lot of the. What do you call it, Prayer manifestation universe, the way things lined up is, like, very intriguing as we get to this age of, like, oh, my God. You know, isn't that interesting?

[B]

Because that happens.

[A]

Yes, exactly.

[B]

That happens. So that thing could happen.

[A]

Right, Exactly. And, like, the lack of then where you're like, oh, my God. My. You know, my regrets are minimal, or my regrets are just like, oh, I should have gone to that wedding, or whatever.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And. But they're not, you know, they're not huge. They're not the big. The regrets of yesteryear. You're like, are no longer a regret because you're like, oh, that had. Exactly what you were saying, you know, and with. Yeah. With everything of what you're doing now. And, like, I do want to say, like, now. I was always intrigued by the Kennedys. I watched every Lifetime movie about Jackie O. I was obsessed with JFK Jr. Like, you know, like, just so intrigued by it all, like. And I want. One of my questions was, you know, was that you? Cause some people say, oh, Meghan Markle said, harry, who is he kind? And they're like, you knew who Harry was. You had Diana's book by your bed in college. What was your relationship of knowing the history of the Kennedy family as far as just pop culture knowledge or.

[B]

No, I really didn't know anything other than what I'd learned in school.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So, you know, I knew John Kennedy, the president I knew. Barely knew Robert Kennedy was the Attorney general also. Never. Never showed up on my radar. I was never a person. That was where we'd sit around and talk about Jackie. I just don't know. I didn't know anything about them, and it's probably worked to my advantage.

[A]

I just remember that was my mom. That's my mom. I remember my mom said when she married my dad, she was like, that was like, the first time she voted. They voted different. She voted for Kennedy, and he voted for Nixon. And she was like, I don't know if this marriage is gonna work. But clearly it did. You know, we're together till they die. You could do that with your spouse, and it wouldn't be this, like, thing. It's like, okay, well, now this. Okay, my guy didn't win, like, whatever, you know, and it just doesn't feel like that for a lot of people.

[B]

But. Yeah.

[A]

So you weren't all. You weren't the person that was reading all the stuff?

[B]

Not at all. Yeah, not at all. I didn't know. I really didn't know. It just seemed. Seemed like a far away, you know, people far away doing something on a beach or something and it's like, that's not my life.

[A]

And how is your daughter's relationship with her stepfather?

[B]

It's really good. I mean, there definitely have been times that were hard because I don't know that many kids want their parent to run for president. You know, it's because it's so out of your control.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, I felt like that as a wife where it's like, it's so out of my control. This isn't my life. I'm not saying I want to run for president, but.

[A]

So are people cruel to her?

[B]

You know, I think once in a while somebody online will say something.

[A]

Everyone can be brave online.

[B]

Yes. But in real life, I mean, she's such a lovely, smart, funny girl that I don't think I've never seen anybody be mean to her. I mean, people aren't mean to me either. They're mean to Bobby.

[A]

Yeah. You said you've been in public where like. And you said the demographic of people that come and tell them to fuck you are middle aged white women.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's. And I'm gonna get one on. I'm gonna get one on camera. One of these days I gotta. And I can't. It's.

[A]

So you'll just be like eating, like enjoy, like enjoying a Chinese chicken salad.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

He's having his, you know, lean meat or whatever he eats.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And then I heard the sauerkraut thing. That was very funny. I have heard that sauerkraut and, and things like that is really like a good diuretic for everybody. But anyway, so he's into eating that. So he brings that with him sometimes. And you guys are just having a meal and someone just comes up and what does he do? Just smile. What does he say?

[B]

Just sits there and listens. And it does not have the effect that the person is hoping it will because they end up looking crazy. And I mean, it's kind of comical.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because when they walk away, you're like, holy shit, did everybody see that? But it's, you know, sometimes. Yeah. I said, I think I say in the book that we were at some restaurant and some Woman said something on her way out, and nobody even looked up from dinner. They're just like, well, there goes the crazy lady. So it's weird. Yeah, it's strange.

[A]

And I don't think people realize you've been married since 2014.

[B]

Yeah, we've been married for a long.

[A]

Time, for 11 years. And so when the digital scandal of this girl saying that she was interviewing him, your husband, and there was flirtation going on, and it was very weird how it came about. I was suspect to how it came out. Cause it was like her husband, who she's divorcing, said went to her boss, who said, I saw this weird thing. And, you know, and it's the height of.

[B]

Well, the election was happening.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Bobby's two months.

[A]

Yeah. Bobby's appearing dangerous to possibly be successful in this situation. But what was that like, I mean, when you had to wake up to that latest thing?

[B]

I was. I mean, by that point, you know, he'd been running for a year and a half. He had endorsed Donald Trump, and people were going crazy. People were going crazy already. So there were already so many stories, like, so many headlines that were just. You learn to not even pay attention to them. But that one, I was. I was in Italy with my girls, and then this story breaks, and I'm like, I. I can't. I can't hear one more. This is too much. This felt like too much. I was just like, it's such a circus.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That running for president is such a circus. And, you know, election day was November 5th, and.

[A]

And you were in Europe with your daughter and your stepmother, your stepdaughter. Yeah. I love that you say my girls and my children. And I'm a stepmother, too. And that's. I refer to my daughter as my daughter. She calls me Mom. Like, you know, it's all lovely. And I love that they're close, too, but. Yeah, I see. So you were just like.

[B]

I was just like a kid. I. You all sound crazy. That's how it felt like. And I, you know, I stayed with my daughters, and we had a. A good time. And then when I got back, I was just. When I got back, it was just like a stop down with Bobby. Just like, tell me everything. What is going on? And then, you know, we got to the truth of what was going on, and then that felt like, oh, okay, okay.

[A]

And what do you think is the truth? That it was like a setup thing.

[B]

You know, I'm not the. I couldn't know this person. I don't know this person that's a question for somebody else. Okay, you know.

[A]

Yeah, I got it.

[B]

But everything about it was. It's a lot of, like you were saying, even to try to get to the bottom of it, it just turns into a strange rabbit hole of, yeah, this thing happened, this person said this thing. And then it just gets exhausting, right? And I'm just like, I can't. I not interested.

[A]

Now, has there been any, like, holiday party of a celebrity person you've worked with that you've been invited to every year? And then, like, last year, you just, like, didn't hear, and then you opened up Instagram and it was still going on, and you're like, oh, I've gone for the last nine years. I wonder what happened to my invite.

[B]

Checking my mailbox. Like, it's gotta be in here. No, I don't have that. But I mean. But listen. Yeah, I do have friends that I have, you know, two friends from the Sunday Company that I've been friends with for this long, and they're not talking to me, and it's like, okay, okay.

[A]

You'Ll tell me after, but I'll tell you. Well, I have to tell you one last funny thing before we close. So when I was at Chelsea, you know, like I said, we're busy. I don't live in your neighborhood. I don't see you, but I have love for you and everything. And I get this email to go to your birthday party. And I literally just told my friend Kate Casey, I go, I'm interviewing Cheryl, and she's a great podcaster, too. And I go, I don't know. I'm gonna ask her. Because until I read this part in your book, I. Okay, so this is what happened. I get an invitation to go to Cheryl's, and it seemed like it was like a big year or something. And it was a pool party barbecue. Bring your favorite exotic animal. So I thought it was Cheryl just being funny, but I thought, it's gonna be a beautiful pool party in this house in Brentwood. And of course I wanna go because I'm not hanging out with this side of Hollywood as much. And I wanna, like, reconnect with the Groundling type people. And, oh, my God, I'll, you know, see all these important people that might say, oh, how they'd be good for that. Okay, you know, not in the 818's over here looking, Hugh, not the 818. So anyway, I was like. And then, like, shortly after, this email comes, and it's like, my daughter hacked my email. This party's not happening. Whatever. And I was like, oh. And I remember thinking, how old is that daughter? Like, how could she do this? You know? And so then time went on, and I have to tell you, I convinced myself that there was somebody else, that my email is heatherdebiasotmail.com, i've had it since before I was married. I have other emails, but that's where it came. And I go, I wonder if she had a friend named Heather Debbins or whatever. And somehow she misinvite. She invited me, and she didn't really mean to invite me. I really did think that until I read it in the book last night.

[B]

That is so.

[A]

And I'm sitting there, like, 11 at night, and I'm like, oh, my God.

[B]

I really was invited.

[A]

Well, I wasn't. I was invited by your daughter. You never had the party. But I'm like, it wasn't a mistake.

[B]

It wasn't a mistake. That's so funny.

[A]

But, like, how you just get in your head. But I still was like, I still love Cheryl. I'm still gonna ask her to come on Juicy Scoop. I still support her. I still think.

[B]

Really? Yeah.

[A]

It didn't make me go, oh, fuck you.

[B]

Whatever that is, so.

[A]

And then I still also wondered because people were saying, oh, Cheryl and Tig's show is so funny. And at one time they tried to call you or something. You had phone numbers. And I was like, oh. And then I listened to it, and Tig was like, heather's not relevant. Something like that. She's like, nobody. The average person wouldn't know who Heather McDonald is, or something like that. And I remember I just heard it, and I was like, you know, I know I'm not on a TV show. I know I'm not at the level of that part, but I was like, I do fucking pretty well for myself.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I was like, okay. So then when someone's like, no, you really need to call into their show. I was like, no, I think they might be, like, like, mocking my. My podcast. Like, being like, oh, you know, like, so I don't know. And I know it. And I didn't really let it get too much to me, which is why I was like. When I saw you have a book, and I want you to.

[B]

Because we were talking, there was some documentary that I knew that you had.

[A]

A connection to her. Yeah.

[B]

And I was like, oh, my God, we've gotta call Heather. But I don't remember what happened. I think I tried to call you. No, no, you did.

[A]

People Said it was funny, and I just. Whatever, didn't see it.

[B]

Oh, but, like, Tig. Like, Tig was probably just saw, like.

[A]

You know, I probably. If I have your number, it's probably just three, one, zero, Whatever. I, like, didn't have it in my thing. Cause it'd been so long.

[B]

I was in no way mocking you. I was just like, heather would know.

[A]

No, and when I heard it, it wasn't you. It was kind of. And I was like, you know, like, whatever. Like, I. You know, like. I know, like, there's times where I'm like. I think sometimes people see me as like, oh, that's. That's that crazy bitch that talks about housewives. Whatever, you know? And I'm like, but I know, like, my life is great, and I know, like, what I've done, but I was just sort of like, okay, you know, like, whatever. But I. But still, I still always knew you.

[B]

I know I always knew you.

[A]

And I knew how sweet you were. And I knew what you. I wouldn't do that for your nephew.

[B]

I. I wouldn't do that, you know, to anybody.

[A]

But people don't know, like, the charitable stuff that you always did, like, your nephew had. Had cerebral palsy. You're so involved in that. And I remember seeing it and all of that. I remember when Ken Polk died and, like, the stuff that, you know, we put together and that you were a big part of his memorial, and you've just always been that nice person, you know that I was like. So I was just kinda like, oh, I think that was just whatever it was. And I'm so glad I didn't let it get to me to the point where I was like, not, you know, but I was a little confused by it. But I wasn't like, well, hey, you know, we hadn't been in touch on the way that we were 20 years ago, but I was still really happy for your journey.

[B]

But, okay, we're having a truth circle. First of all, I would never do that to you. I would never. I think you are amazing, and I'm really proud of you for what you've created, who you are. I mean, you've created something really special, and I think it's unbelievable. And because I did send you that when I saw the picture of the women smelling people's armpits.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I was like, oh, my God, this makes me think of Heather. And I sent it to you, but you never responded. And I was like, I never saw it.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

Cause I was like, I never saw.

[A]

It until I Wrote you and said, oh, my God, you have a book coming out. You have to come on my show.

[B]

Well, it's.

[A]

And come before it comes out.

[B]

Well, Heather, because I was like, when I sent that to you, it wasn't that long ago.

[A]

No, I looked, and when I was going through the stuff, I was like.

[B]

Oh, fuck, I missed this. Turned.

[A]

Oh, no, that's what I thought.

[B]

I was like, oh, she's not speaking to me. Okay. See? Oh, look at us. But just to be.

[A]

Because also, in this business, you always wonder, like, well, what was it? You know, like, I always say when people go. I go, I don't know. If I flipped my hair in someone's face in an elevator in 1998, and they've hated me ever since. And they could. And then sometimes it's something bigger and sometimes it's just a miscommunication, a misdemeanor, whatever.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

A misunderstanding. Someone relaying to me what they, like, heard on the show, what they thought.

[B]

They heard or somebody said they said.

[A]

Yeah. When people say they talked about you, sometimes I don't bother to listen. But I go and listen before. And then I go, oh, God, they weren't dissing me. Like, who cares? Everyone has a podcast. We all talk. I heard what you said about me on your podcast is like, the name of my next book. Like, everyone talks about each other now, and that's a lot of time to talk. Yeah. Where people. Yeah. Like, we used to talk behind people's backs. Now we just put a mic and fucking let it rip. But no, I would never. And I felt. I felt really badly, like, watching that View thing. And I felt that you came off great. And I just. I. You know, and I admire, like, to the point where you're like, you know what? Enough. Because so many of us in this business and during this time have, like, cowered and has been like, oh, I guess, you know, I can't.

[B]

Well, yeah, you can't. I don't wanna say anything because this business is hard enough.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You can't give people a reason to say no to you. You learned that early as an actor.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Don't be late. Know your lines, take direction, have a good attitude. Don't give people a reason to not cast you, to not hire you. So, you know, there is that going on. And like you said, you can feel it. Like, if somebody says, I remember after Donald Trump won the first time and I was in a green room with a bunch of actors, they were all saying, you know, I can't believe it. And one guy said, oh, yeah, I voted for Trump. And it was like whiplash. Everybody looked and like, and everybody stopped talking to this person. And I said, I said, that's. I said, why did you vote? You know, And I had a conversation with him because I thought it was interesting and interesting that he was perfectly at ease with saying that when he just created a huge reaction from everybody. I thought the whole situation was, you know, eye opening. I had no idea. I honestly had no idea there was that.

[A]

Like, I said, I didn't. I've lived in LA my whole life and I didn't really understand it until I started to work. And then I remember someone saying, don't. My friend had a husband who was a director and he was a Mormon. And I went to her house and she had a big bottle of champagne. She goes, here, do you want this? And she goes, every time my husband gets a job directing, his agent sends him a big bottle of champagne. And I go, why doesn't he know that he's Mormon? And she's like, no, and don't ever tell anybody and don't, you know. And I'm like, what? Like, this is so weird. Like, that you're like pretending to be this other person. And so I'm like, okay, so, yeah, and I, and I thought it was like a joke. Like, I thought it was people being dramatic when they talked about like, oh, there's a secret group and da, da, da, and keep your mouth shut and duh. And I was like, oh, come on, who cares? You know, and then it proved to be true. And then it's like, you know, no matter what you did or said, they just are trying to, you know. And so then I was just like, you know what? And so then with this show, like, there was a day in 2016 where I'm like, I'm just never gonna talk. And it was hard to come up with topics sometimes that were not political. There was some funny ass shit that happened that I would have loved to have talked about, making fun of all the different sides. And I just was like, I'm not gonna do this because I just want this to be the escape of. And so then even with having you on, I go, I know this is gonna be a controversial thing. And I'm like, finally, fuck off. I don't care. Yeah, you're my friend. The book is great. Very interesting, Interesting life. I hope you enjoy living in both places. I hope another book comes out after. I think this could be a great movie about your life. I think it could Be a really interesting movie. And, you know, and whatever happens a couple years from now, like, I just hope you're still.

[B]

We'll always have each other.

[A]

We'll only have each other and you still.

[B]

We'll always have Sunday.

[A]

We'll always have. You'll always have your family and, like, the rest of it.

[B]

Yeah. Who cares?

[A]

Yeah. It's gonna come and go, and things, like, happen. There's such big things, you know, oh, my God, we'll never get over this. And then, like, shut. If you. Sometimes you just keep your mouth shut. A week later, they've all moved on to something else, you know?

[B]

It's true. Yeah, it's true.

[A]

I had a group of haters, and then I stopped addressing them. And then I realized they went over to this other girl I know, and I saw her being like. And I'm like, oh, God, they're the same ones. I literally. I'm like, they're the same ones I had. And they went over to you just, like. Just. But it is hard. And when you see it, it's hard to always be like that. And it takes a lot to just go and enjoy yourself. And. Anyway, the book is very good, and I can't wait to finish it. And, I mean, you talk about some really profound things, and. Oh, the last thing I was gonna say is, I also think it was interesting you're raised Catholic. I remember that about us. I, too. And of course, the Kennedys are Catholic. And I also thought Ethel must have liked that.

[B]

Yeah. I guess we hardly talked about religion, though.

[A]

But even if you're not practicing in the sense that you're going to Mass every day, it's like, there's something. There's an understanding. There's like, an understanding of that kind of Catholic guilt that makes you sometimes go.

[B]

Fall in line.

[A]

Yeah. Or feel guilty.

[B]

Feel guilty. Yeah.

[A]

We have to take Marie to the Sky Bar. I still feel very guilty.

[B]

That is.

[A]

So I'm gonna tell her that you said that. Maria's fine. I feel really bad. I know. And when I saw her years ago, and she was telling me, like, all the stuff she was doing, and she was, like, working reality tv, and I was like, oh, good, she's not mad about the Sky Bar.

[B]

No. That's so funny. You know what that reminds me of? One time, this is a long time ago, I went on Jimmy Kimmel. Long, long time ago. And I made jokes about his toupee because I didn't think he wore a toupee. I was just making a joke. Like, his hair Looked funny or something. And then when I got home, I thought, oh, my God, what if he does wear toupee? And I just said that on live television. And I worried about it until the next time I went on a show. And then during commercial break, I leaned over and said, I'm so sorry that I said that about your toupee, because I don't wear a toupee. I said, oh, that's what I thought. But then I said that joke, and he's like, I have no idea what you're talking about. He said, have you been carrying this around for years? And I said, I have. I felt so badly. I didn't want to hurt your feelings. He's like, cheryl, let it go. I don't have a toupee. Nobody cares.

[A]

No, but we're so similar. Like that. Like that. There's a weird thing that, like, haunted sky bark that'll just kind of haunt me. Like, that was not nice.

[B]

Aw. I'm gonna forgive you right now.

[A]

I would have said the models had a plus one. Then we might have been able to come, and they could have squeezed on the back of my tortoise Helica. Oh, my God. Everybody, the book is unscripted. You're gonna go and pre order right now so that you're gonna get it on Tuesday, November 11th, 11th. They always come out on Tuesday. It'll make the Gap. It'll make the bestseller list the following Tuesday. You'll know.

[B]

We'll see. We'll see. It doesn't matter.

[A]

I think it will. And because just there's. It's funny, it's intriguing, it's. It's spiritual, it's sad. There's some very sad parts. And, yeah, I. I loved it. And thank you for coming and staying for so long. Thank you, Heather. And everybody. Follow Cheryl, right? What's your Instagram?

[B]

I think it's, like, just underscore Cheryl Hines.

[A]

Yeah. Very easy, you guys. Unscripted. And of course, go to heathermcdallin.net I have just a few tickets left for my Vegas show, so you better go. November 14th. Bye.

[B]

Love you. Thank you.